Re: Many to Many Join Input Form
Using an Invoice, entry form, as an example. This assumes all relations are Manual relations (NOTE: all 'code' written in the email - not really code) you would call a relation command in on load You would do this only if there is only 1 related table, or you want ALL related tables to load their data :(Form event = on load) relate many([Invoice_Items]Invoice_id) You can optionally use a query to get only those 'related' records for one related table :(Form event = on load) query([invoice_items];[invoice_items]Invoice_ID=[invoice]Invoice_ID) if you have 2 or more tables of related data you are displaying for the user Invoice items Shipping addresses Payments received When Invoices were sent *I* would create a method to be called from the tab control** invoice_Manage_Tab (longint : Tab 'page' being displayed) In this method I would do the appropriate query to locate the needed 'related' records based on which tab was being displayed (given the above related table list and order). The Tab manager may do more then just locate records, depending on the way in which you are displaying the related records. It could load arrays if you are using an array based listbox, it could setup columns if you are using a selection based listbox, it could do calculations (sum of invoice items for example). THis would depend on the data being displayed and interface being used. tab 1 - invoice items tab 2 - Shipping addresses etc In the form method :(form event = on load) invoice_Manage_Tab(1) `loads invoice items for display ** - table control - allows user to switch between different related table views Calculations (such as Invoice Item total) this can be done in a few places - again depending on interface and what control the user has on what is displayed. - In the tab manager, if the user can not change the display (add/remove/query) - in the On Display Detail event (listbox, 4d view(?), (included) sub form) - in the footer (listbox, 4D view(?), (included) sub form) Note: I do not, have not used 4D view so I do not know what options are available. Chip On Thu, 13 Oct 2016 20:28:25 -0300, pk wrote: > I am still understanding the manual relations (as chip mentioned), > and which events to use where for totals, ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Many to Many Join Input Form
Keith C., Keith B, Chuck M, and Chip S. Wow! Thank you all so much for taking the time to walk me through some of the concepts of the join table and the UI interface Mechanics. I made it through a rough working model with your advice, now, I will go back and do it all from scratch (a few times :) to make sure I really got it. I am still understanding the manual relations (as chip mentioned), and which events to use where for totals, updating/modifying fields etc. The drag and drop UI is a new concept for me, I had no idea...neat. All the best. On 10/11/2016 04:09 PM, Kirk Brooks wrote: Paul, This is a problem that really is about the UI more than the mechanics of how the data are connected. What makes it difficult is that the 'best' way to look at it really depends on your point of view at the moment. ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Many to Many Join Input Form
Paul, This is a problem that really is about the UI more than the mechanics of how the data are connected. What makes it difficult is that the 'best' way to look at it really depends on your point of view at the moment. If you are working in the company record you need to be able to select from the other lists of names. If you are working on a person record, that is, the person point of view, you want to be able to choose from a list of companies. The reason it's hard to get a nice, single input form is because you have these two different points of view. My approach to these situations is two separate windows (separate processes): one for the people and one for the company. If I'm working on a person record I can drag a company from the company list to the person record. Add as many as you want. The same approach applies to the companies - look up the correct person and drag them to the company record. If you don't like drag & drop you could work out some set of IP variables to identify what's selected and work it that way. More complicated but if that's the UI you prefer it certainly can be done. Whatever mechanisms you employ to create the linkages in the data don't really concern the users and they probably don't care what they are - they just want them to work. I'd sketch out how you (or your users) want it to look on the screen and how they want it to work. Then design the forms and you can fit in the mechanics as necessary. I use this approach for Items and Sales Orders, for example. It's the same sort of issue - a given sales order can have any number of items on it and a given item can be used in any number of sales orders. I've got an 'Item Picker' that's a separate process with a floating window where any item can be looked up and dragged to wherever it's needed. The Sales Order link back to the items. On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 8:43 AM, pk paul wrote: > ... > > The join table is working properly, however, I am having a difficult time > getting the Input forms to work properly, or, maybe a better way to put it, > in a way that is more intuitive for an average user. It works, but, it does > not "feel" good or coherent. > > So, the use cases are, for example. > > While in the company table, when you add an existing person to the > company...or even a new person to the company and to the people table, what > is a good way to make it all flow? -- Kirk Brooks San Francisco, CA === ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Many to Many Join Input Form
This may help if I understand the question: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qwnnekzp4uzd1h1/ManyToMany.png?dl=0 I've used a link-table to store the attributes of the relationship between records in the two tables (eg, Position). The Company entry form would look similar, with [Person]Name as column 2 of the listbox. Changes to column1 would need saving after each filed Data Change. Keith > On Oct 11, 2016, at 11:50 AM, pk paul wrote: > > > The join table is working properly, however, I am having a difficult time >> getting the Input forms to work properly, or, maybe a better way to put > it, >> in a way that is more intuitive for an average user. It works, but, it > does >> not "feel" good or coherent. > > @Keith > Hello Keith, thank you for the reply. Yes, I did, however, I do not see how > they implemented the join or related record selection for use in the > scenario I am mentioning, which is where I am having my difficulty. I am > sure it is a common scenario, I am just missing something :) > > @Chip >> (simple) a button labeled 'People' which when clicked opens a new >> window (process) showing a listing > > Hello Chip, thank you for the reply and the outline/concept in general. I > will experiment with that now, that has put me in the correct direction. > > @Chuck >> You will need to know if a person ca belong to more than one company. >> How do you identify Charles Miller (me) if you have 3 in your db. > > Hello Chuck, I think you are referring to there being 3 Charles Millers, > all different people, but, same name? > > If yes, then that means the list box or whatever I present to user, also > includes additional identifing information, such as a location or some > other unique type of detail? > > If that is not what you meant, then I don't understand how you mean it. > Because there should never be 3 idential records for one individual. right > :) > > @all > due to the nature of a mailing list, maybe I should make a seperate post > for this > Other than asking on this list, are there other places to discover > examples, in-depth discussion about things like this (best practices, pros, > cons of particular solutions etc?) > > Thank you to all that responded, I will spend some time on this and revert > back. ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Many to Many Join Input Form
in the form method :(form event = on Load) or if you have a tab control, in the code for managing the change of the tab page you would put some code like this : relate many([Parent_table]parent_Key) or Query([Child_table];[Child_table]Parent_key=[Parent_table]parent_Key) see Relate Many command description in the language manual, or the online documentation, or the (html) help files (I use these, so I do not have a link to the online page). It gives a good description. Relate Many is good if there is only *1* relation from the parent, however it triggers all relations and so can have side effects. As a side note - I suggest that all your relations be set as MANUAL not as AUTOMATIC. Automatic relations will do the relate many command for you - BUT - can have nasty side effects if you have circular relations as it will cascade through the relations. ex: [Table A] -> [Table B] -> [Table C] -> [Table A] with automatic relations, starting at [Table A], related record from [Table B] will be located, and then related records from [Table C] will be located, after which (and this is where your problem comes in, [Table A] records will be loaded that are related to [TAble C]. THIS can change the current record(s) in [Table A]. On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 13:50:37 -0300, pk paul wrote: > > @Keith > Hello Keith, thank you for the reply. Yes, I did, however, I do not see how > they implemented the join or related record selection for use in the > scenario I am mentioning, which is where I am having my difficulty. I am > sure it is a common scenario, I am just missing something :) ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Many to Many Join Input Form
> The join table is working properly, however, I am having a difficult time > getting the Input forms to work properly, or, maybe a better way to put it, > in a way that is more intuitive for an average user. It works, but, it does > not "feel" good or coherent. @Keith Hello Keith, thank you for the reply. Yes, I did, however, I do not see how they implemented the join or related record selection for use in the scenario I am mentioning, which is where I am having my difficulty. I am sure it is a common scenario, I am just missing something :) @Chip > (simple) a button labeled 'People' which when clicked opens a new > window (process) showing a listing Hello Chip, thank you for the reply and the outline/concept in general. I will experiment with that now, that has put me in the correct direction. @Chuck > You will need to know if a person ca belong to more than one company. > How do you identify Charles Miller (me) if you have 3 in your db. Hello Chuck, I think you are referring to there being 3 Charles Millers, all different people, but, same name? If yes, then that means the list box or whatever I present to user, also includes additional identifing information, such as a location or some other unique type of detail? If that is not what you meant, then I don't understand how you mean it. Because there should never be 3 idential records for one individual. right :) @all due to the nature of a mailing list, maybe I should make a seperate post for this Other than asking on this list, are there other places to discover examples, in-depth discussion about things like this (best practices, pros, cons of particular solutions etc?) Thank you to all that responded, I will spend some time on this and revert back. ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Many to Many Join Input Form
You will need to know if a person ca belong to more than one company. How do you identify Charles Miller (me) if you have 3 in your db. Regards Chuck Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064 mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity http://www.informed-solutions.com > On Oct 10, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Chip Scheide <4d_o...@pghrepository.org> wrote: > > From a user perspective: > > You are on a Company entry form, you have a list of personnel. > You probably want the user to double click a blank line, or click a '+' > button to add a new person to the list. > Here is an interesting issue: is the new person new to the system or > just the company? > - new to the system > double click (or '+' button) opens the entry form FOR THE PERSON, not > the entry form for the m-2-m table. > The new person (record) will handle creating the linking record, > probably on SAVE (accept) of the new person record (form event = on > Validate, or in the trigger), assigning both the new person record ID > and the company ID. > > - New person to the company - BUT - not new to the system. > You need to provide a means for the user to select the new person(s). > Maybe not the easiest way to do this for a beginning 4D developer, > but I prefer Drag N Drop. > (simple) a button labeled 'People' which when clicked opens a new > window (process) showing a listing > form for the [people] table, displaying the people already in the > system. > The user can then select the person(s) and drag n drop them on the > person listing in the company entry form. > > > For adding a company from the People entry form, just reverse the above. > - New open the company entry form > - add from existing - open a company listing window and drag n drop to > the person entry form. > > You will likely need more details to implement this - but that is the > outline. ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Many to Many Join Input Form
From a user perspective: You are on a Company entry form, you have a list of personnel. You probably want the user to double click a blank line, or click a '+' button to add a new person to the list. Here is an interesting issue: is the new person new to the system or just the company? - new to the system double click (or '+' button) opens the entry form FOR THE PERSON, not the entry form for the m-2-m table. The new person (record) will handle creating the linking record, probably on SAVE (accept) of the new person record (form event = on Validate, or in the trigger), assigning both the new person record ID and the company ID. - New person to the company - BUT - not new to the system. You need to provide a means for the user to select the new person(s). Maybe not the easiest way to do this for a beginning 4D developer, but I prefer Drag N Drop. (simple) a button labeled 'People' which when clicked opens a new window (process) showing a listing form for the [people] table, displaying the people already in the system. The user can then select the person(s) and drag n drop them on the person listing in the company entry form. For adding a company from the People entry form, just reverse the above. - New open the company entry form - add from existing - open a company listing window and drag n drop to the person entry form. You will likely need more details to implement this - but that is the outline. Chip On Mon, 10 Oct 2016 12:43:31 -0300, pk paul wrote: > Hello All, I am a newish 4d user with v15. I was subscribed to the basics > list, but, i do not think it is active as there have been no messages. I > hope it is ok to ask here, if not, please redirect me. > > I am practicing with my first database and plan to use a many to many > joining table between my "company" and "people" tables. I have persons that > belongs to multiple companies, and, of course companies with multiple > people. > > Based on some of the discussion I just found in this list, I have made a > joining table with the Primary key from each Table. > > > The join table is working properly, however, I am having a difficult time > getting the Input forms to work properly, or, maybe a better way to put it, > in a way that is more intuitive for an average user. It works, but, it does > not "feel" good or coherent. > > So, the use cases are, for example. > > While in the company table, when you add an existing person to the > company...or even a new person to the company and to the people table, what > is a good way to make it all flow? > > And the similar scenario going from Person to company. I have an example of > a person that has a day job and has just started 2 "companies" (so, 3 total > companies for this one person) and each company has a different partner, > the company has him plus another person. It seems I should be able to > easily create the 2 new companies from the Person Table when clicking into > the "company/join" subform. > > Does anyone know of any examples I could see or study on how this is > managed? > > As I said, I can make it work, but, I would like a non user to feel > comfortable doing this. What happens now is I double click on the output > list subform and that goes to the input of the join table. Without knowing > the ID of the person or companywhat to do? > > Maybe a pop up list or search or?? how is this normally done? > > I did search through the 4d support site for many to many, relations and > join. I also looked in the design and language manuals, but, unless I > missed it, again, not much in depth. > > Where else to look? I hope I explained this in an understandable way. > > Thank you in advance. pk > > **by the way, is that at the correct place to view archives? > http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.com/4D-Tech-f1376241.html > I am kind of new to lists and I am having a bit of a hard time locating 4d > related things for new users. As in more advanced topics than the > tutorials, but, not as advanced as the discussions here:) > ** > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) > FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html > Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech > Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com > ** ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
Re: Many to Many Join Input Form
Did you see this page? http://livedoc.4d.com/4D-Design-Reference-15-R5/Creating-a-database-structure/Types-of-relations.300-2964243.en.html Keith - CDI > On Oct 10, 2016, at 10:43 AM, pk paul wrote: > > Hello All, I am a newish 4d user with v15. I was subscribed to the basics > list, but, i do not think it is active as there have been no messages. I > hope it is ok to ask here, if not, please redirect me. > > I am practicing with my first database and plan to use a many to many > joining table between my "company" and "people" tables. I have persons that > belongs to multiple companies, and, of course companies with multiple > people. > > Based on some of the discussion I just found in this list, I have made a > joining table with the Primary key from each Table. > > > The join table is working properly, however, I am having a difficult time > getting the Input forms to work properly, or, maybe a better way to put it, > in a way that is more intuitive for an average user. It works, but, it does > not "feel" good or coherent. > > So, the use cases are, for example. > > While in the company table, when you add an existing person to the > company...or even a new person to the company and to the people table, what > is a good way to make it all flow? > > And the similar scenario going from Person to company. I have an example of > a person that has a day job and has just started 2 "companies" (so, 3 total > companies for this one person) and each company has a different partner, > the company has him plus another person. It seems I should be able to > easily create the 2 new companies from the Person Table when clicking into > the "company/join" subform. > > Does anyone know of any examples I could see or study on how this is > managed? > > As I said, I can make it work, but, I would like a non user to feel > comfortable doing this. What happens now is I double click on the output > list subform and that goes to the input of the join table. Without knowing > the ID of the person or companywhat to do? > > Maybe a pop up list or search or?? how is this normally done? > > I did search through the 4d support site for many to many, relations and > join. I also looked in the design and language manuals, but, unless I > missed it, again, not much in depth. > > Where else to look? I hope I explained this in an understandable way. > > Thank you in advance. pk > > **by the way, is that at the correct place to view archives? > http://4d.1045681.n5.nabble.com/4D-Tech-f1376241.html > I am kind of new to lists and I am having a bit of a hard time locating 4d > related things for new users. As in more advanced topics than the > tutorials, but, not as advanced as the discussions here:) > ** > 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) > FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html > Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html > Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech > Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com > ** ** 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG) FAQ: http://lists.4d.com/faqnug.html Archive: http://lists.4d.com/archives.html Options: http://lists.4d.com/mailman/options/4d_tech Unsub: mailto:4d_tech-unsubscr...@lists.4d.com **
