Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:00:49 PDT errno er...@cox.net wrote: Though I don't understand why folks around here complain about linux so often and so vehemently, when the only reason why you're complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. Nobody *needs* linux. That is like saying people need McDonald's. What people need is to *eat*. Not the same thing. If they are forced to eat at McDonald's when they know better alternatives exist, they are going to complain. Bitterly.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thursday, April 28, 2011 08:03:23 PM erik quanstrom wrote: Though I don't understand why folks around here complain about linux so often and so vehemently, when the only reason why you're complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. people who care about Doing Things Right are easy to upset. Bloat... can't live with it, can't live without it. ... I hope that something better comes along. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yaP_kc3y9w On Thursday, April 28, 2011 08:11:49 PM andrey mirtchovski wrote: errno, you sound like you may be trespassing on our collective 9fans lawn. i wave a cane in your general direction. Plan 9 rules and linux drools - I get it - but, wake me up when there's a Grand Unified Solution for implementing a perfectly clean, multi-purpose, general-use operating platform for an ad-hoc, rapidly (d)evolving, messy industry/market/society - that isn't itself intrinsically, hopelessly bloated in order to fulfill said purpose. Until then, complaining about de-facto linux bloat is a lot like complaining about death and taxes. Boring and disingenuous. IMHO, at least. (I'm just glad the collective plan 9 lawn expands far beyond the pointless linux-hate gazebo.)
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
clean, multi-purpose, general-use operating platform for an ad-hoc, rapidly (d)evolving, messy industry/market/society here: http://mirtchovski.com/p9/canthave.png
Re: [9fans] dns SRV records
Greate example ! :) Thanks :) 2011/4/29 Benjamin Huntsman bhunts...@mail2.cu-portland.edu: Investigating the possibility of replacing the MS DNS on Plan9 DNS,not found in the man ndb mention of records of type SRV. It is necessary to support Microsoft Active Directory. Maybe I missed something? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRV_record I got AD to work with Plan 9 DNS just last year. It didn't work very well, and I had problems with the DNS service dying from time to time and I'd have to go restart it. Much as I'd preferred to have stayed on Plan 9 DNS, I switched to BIND 9 on OpenBSD and have had far fewer problems. But anyway, here's the Active Directory support portion of my /ndb/local. This supported a domain whose domain was testad. Like I said, it works, but not as seamlessly as MS DNS or BIND 9 with dynamic updates enabled... (pardon the excessive comments) # # # Active Directory support # See http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd316373.aspx # # # # Domain Controllers: # ip=10.0.0.20 sys=kfdc1 dom=kfdc1.testad.test.local ether= ip=10.0.0.21 sys=kfdc2 dom=kfdc2.testad.test.local ether=005056b36086 # # requisite CNAME aliases # cname=kfdc2.testad.test.local dom=testad.test.local cname=kfdc2.testad.test.local dom=8df1f9af-8c89-4263-9c30-a40ad5ac728f._msdcs.testad.test.local # # SRV records, etc # dom=testad.test.local soa= refresh=3600 ttl=3600 ns=ns2.test.local #ns=ns1.test.local dnsdomain=testad.test.local dom=_ldap._tcp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 dom=_kerberos._tcp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=88 srv=kfcd2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=88 dom=_kpasswd._udp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=464 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=464 dom=_kpasswd._tcp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=464 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=464 dom=_ldap._tcp.dc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 dom=_ldap._tcp.gc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 # only one PDC dom=_ldap._tcp.pdc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 dom=_ldap._tcp.KlamathFalls._sites.gc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 dom=_kerberos._tcp.dc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=88 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=88 dom=gc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=3268 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=3268 dom=_gc._tcp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=3268 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=3268 dom=_ldap._tcp.e3514235-4b06-11d1-ab04-00c04fc2dcd2.domains._msdcs.testad.test.local srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 # Key Management Service dom=_VLMCS._tcp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=1688 dom=_ldap._tcp.KlamathFalls._sites.domaindnszones.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 dom=_ldap._tcp.domaindnszones.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 dom=_ldap._tcp.KlamathFalls._sites.forestdnszones.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 dom=_ldap._tcp.forestdnszones.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 # # # End Active Directory Support # # -- С наилучшими пожеланиями Жилкин Сергей With best regards Zhilkin Sergey
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
[1] For those gnashing teeth over glibc - might want to check out musl libc. It's no plan 9 libc, but it's definitely less worse than glibc. ``News: As of version 0.7.7, musl has been successfully bootstrapped by a third-party system integrator.'' hmm. they had to do more than just compile it? a library has to be `bootstrapped'? i blame the parents.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. it's true, but at least i haven't got to run either Windows or MacOS. the underlying problem is that the things we might simply import (mainly browser) can't simply be imported. it's not just us: you might have noticed that Google's Picasaweb runs under Linux by including a copy of Wine as part of its iceberg. also google in any alternative-os list you like for a discussion of the hopelessness of ./configure
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday 29 of April 2011 11:18:26 Charles Forsyth wrote:
complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things
you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your
organization.
it's true, but at least i haven't got to run either Windows or MacOS.
the underlying problem is that the things we might simply import (mainly
browser) can't simply be imported. it's not just us: you might have
noticed that Google's Picasaweb runs under Linux by including a copy of
Wine as part of its iceberg. also google in any alternative-os list you
like for a discussion of the hopelessness of ./configure
qmake (Qt's makefile generator) is mostly reasonable IMHO. consists of one
program (the qmake) which reads a rather simple project description
(myapp.pro) plus a bunch of platform description files
(/usr/lib{,64}/qt/mkspec/platform/qmake.conf + whatever it includes) and
outputs reasonable makefiles.
at any rate, the supposed replacements for autoconf/automake aren't shining
examples of engineering either -- usually big complex. i guess it's more
about mindset (``let's check every itty-gritty detail and let's abstract away
differences between platforms'') than the problem space, thou.
--
dexen deVries
[[[↓][→]]]
``In other news, STFU and hack.''
mahmud, in response to Erann Gat's ``How I lost my faith in Lisp''
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2308816
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
let's abstract away differences between platforms but they don't `abstract away': they enumerate them.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 11:12:55AM +0200, dexen deVries wrote:
qmake (Qt's makefile generator) is mostly reasonable IMHO. consists of one
program (the qmake) which reads a rather simple project description
(myapp.pro) plus a bunch of platform description files
(/usr/lib{,64}/qt/mkspec/platform/qmake.conf + whatever it includes) and
outputs reasonable makefiles.
at any rate, the supposed replacements for autoconf/automake aren't shining
examples of engineering either -- usually big complex. i guess it's more
about mindset (``let's check every itty-gritty detail and let's abstract away
differences between platforms'') than the problem space, thou.
The problem is not in the tool per se---R.I.S.K., used for KerGIS and
kerTeX (and others with no public version), is an example---but with the
programmers.
If programmers knew what they are using (C89 or C99 and that's all; or
POSIX etc.), the problem would be easily solved---these are the
cases solved by R.I.S.K.: programmer must know.
If the tool must guess what the program is using; furthermore if
for viral purpose and by educational repeating the wannabee
programmers are told to not care about standards, because GNU's
Not Unix and POSIX is bad, but use every chunk blessed by the GPL...
I don't know if there are black holes in the nature. But for sure mob
programming has managed to create computer ones; projects so bloated
that they are absorbing all the resources around with an emitted service
dimming more and more.
I'm finishing the integration of MetaPost in kerTeX (one auxiliary
program to fix and I can start testing), and I will have spent less time
from a very scarce free time redoing everything (distribution side) than
people trying to make TeX Live compiling for their plateform. (The
source code is the Medusa: you look at it and you are awed. That was
the aim.)
I claim this is a kind of lesson. (Same goes for GRASS - KerGIS even if
nobody cared when I did it.)
--
Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com
http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday 29 of April 2011 11:44:31 tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: I don't know if there are black holes in the nature. But for sure mob programming has managed to create computer ones; projects so bloated that they are absorbing all the resources around with an emitted service dimming more and more. curiously enough, both black holes are understood to undergo evaporation (due to quantum tunneling) and communities undergo the so-called `evaporative cooling' -- where influx of `cold' (barely talented) members causes evaporation of the the `hot' (most talented) members. at any rate, `code removed is code debugged' is very true, but that's not something easily put on CV or boasted to friends. (...) mob programming (...) there's a lot of substarnce to offend certain projects with, no need to merely use style. -- dexen deVries [[[↓][→]]] ``In other news, STFU and hack.'' mahmud, in response to Erann Gat's ``How I lost my faith in Lisp'' http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2308816
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, April 29, 2011 02:04:26 AM Charles Forsyth wrote: [1] For those gnashing teeth over glibc - might want to check out musl libc. It's no plan 9 libc, but it's definitely less worse than glibc. ``News: As of version 0.7.7, musl has been successfully bootstrapped by a third-party system integrator.'' hmm. they had to do more than just compile it? a library has to be `bootstrapped'? i blame the parents. Really? I think it's fair enough to say that your standard library has been bootstrapped upon the first instance of it being baked into a new platform as the native libc. https://github.com/chneukirchen/sabotage On Friday, April 29, 2011 02:18:26 AM Charles Forsyth wrote: complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. it's true, but at least i haven't got to run either Windows or MacOS. the underlying problem is that the things we might simply import (mainly browser) can't simply be imported. it's not just us: you might have noticed that Google's Picasaweb runs under Linux by including a copy of Wine as part of its iceberg. also google in any alternative-os list you like for a discussion of the hopelessness of ./configure Icebergs are justified when used as a temporary stop-gap until a native solution is devised and implemented. Thus, a webkit environment (AWE) seems like a pretty decent compromise until Plan 9 is finally able to treat the wild wild web like a first-class citizen. I have no clue how difficult it would be to port webkit to Plan 9 though, but I imagine it would be easier than writing a pure Plan 9 web browser engine (html, css, dom ecmascript) from scratch. (I just do basic backend web programming and linux systems administration - so I'm just speculating.) But then again, why would anyone want a fully functional web experience on Plan 9 - what would be the purpose? Apparently nobody does, otherwise it'd be implemented already.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Apr 29, 2011 6:21 AM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: On Friday, April 29, 2011 02:04:26 AM Charles Forsyth wrote: [1] For those gnashing teeth over glibc - might want to check out musl libc. It's no plan 9 libc, but it's definitely less worse than glibc. ``News: As of version 0.7.7, musl has been successfully bootstrapped by a third-party system integrator.'' hmm. they had to do more than just compile it? a library has to be `bootstrapped'? i blame the parents. Really? I think it's fair enough to say that your standard library has been bootstrapped upon the first instance of it being baked into a new platform as the native libc. https://github.com/chneukirchen/sabotage On Friday, April 29, 2011 02:18:26 AM Charles Forsyth wrote: complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. it's true, but at least i haven't got to run either Windows or MacOS. the underlying problem is that the things we might simply import (mainly browser) can't simply be imported. it's not just us: you might have noticed that Google's Picasaweb runs under Linux by including a copy of Wine as part of its iceberg. also google in any alternative-os list you like for a discussion of the hopelessness of ./configure Afaik, google has been distributing picasa with wine for years, it doesn't act like an intermediate solution, it seems told be their solution. Icebergs are justified when used as a temporary stop-gap until a native solution is devised and implemented. Thus, a webkit environment (AWE) seems like a pretty decent compromise until Plan 9 is finally able to treat the wild wild web like a first-class citizen. Seeing that plan 9 doesn't have a c++ compiler, i doubt it will ever be ported. Cinap runs opera 9, flash 7, even blender under linuxemu, though. You might want to take a look at it. 9hal.ath.cx. you can also use vnc on plan 9 if you 'need' to use the web. I have no clue how difficult it would be to port webkit to Plan 9 though, but I imagine it would be easier than writing a pure Plan 9 web browser engine (html, css, dom ecmascript) from scratch. (I just do basic backend web programming and linux systems administration - so I'm just speculating.) But then again, why would anyone want a fully functional web experience on Plan 9 - what would be the purpose? Apparently nobody does, otherwise it'd be implemented already.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
But then again, why would anyone want a fully functional web experience on Plan 9 - what would be the purpose? Apparently nobody does, otherwise it'd be implemented already. that's not logical. and from another post Until then, complaining about de-facto linux bloat is a lot like complaining about death and taxes. Boring and disingenuous. this is also illogical. i see nothing intellectually dishonest about a complaining about x being too y, and using z whenever possible. why can't x=motor vehicles, y=use too much gas, z=a bicycle. clearly one can't cycle to the west coast for a business trip. that doesn't mean you don't want to, and there's nothing dishonest about that desire. i don't mind a good lively discussion, but these comments seem a bit trollish to me. why don't we get back on track? - erik
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 GSoC projects selected
On 27 Apr 2011, at 6:47 pm, Anthony Sorace wrote: • Unification of X11 code and wsys device, by Jesús Galán López [1] [...] [1] http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/ gsoc2011/yiyus/1 I'm a bit curious about this one but all I get from the link is This proposal is not made public, and you are not the student who submitted the proposal, nor are you a mentor for the organization it was submitted to.
[9fans] lenovo or other laptop support
I remember hearing that some of the lenovo's thinkpads have good plan 9 support. Does anyone have a list of laptop models that are known to work with at least the basics (video, net, and maybe even sound)? Thanks, EBo --
Re: [9fans] dns SRV records
I took your example without any changes. But unfortunately it still does not return the correct value of srv hostname ... For example: C:\Documents and Settings\Administratornslookup Default Server: rit.com Address: 192.168.0.190 server 192.168.0.193 set q=srv _ldap._tcp.testad.test.local Server: [192.168.0.193] Address: 192.168.0.193 _ldap._tcp.testad.test.local SRV service location: priority = 0 weight = 0 port = 389 svr hostname = kfdc1\.testad\.test\.local._ldap._tcp.testad.test.loc al *** Error: record size incorrect (32 != 30) *** [192.168.0.193] can't find _ldap._tcp.testad.test.local: Unspecified error And it should be: server 192.168.0.2 Default Server: server64.rit.com Address: 192.168.0.2 _ldap._tcp.rit.com Server: server64.rit.com Address: 192.168.0.2 _ldap._tcp.rit.com SRV service location: priority = 0 weight = 100 port = 389 svr hostname = server65.rit.com _ldap._tcp.rit.com SRV service location: priority = 0 weight = 100 port = 389 svr hostname = server64.rit.com server65.rit.com internet address = 192.168.0.5 server64.rit.com internet address = 192.168.0.2 2011/4/29 Benjamin Huntsman bhunts...@mail2.cu-portland.edu Investigating the possibility of replacing the MS DNS on Plan9 DNS,not found in the man ndb mention of records of type SRV. It is necessary to support Microsoft Active Directory. Maybe I missed something? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRV_record I got AD to work with Plan 9 DNS just last year. It didn't work very well, and I had problems with the DNS service dying from time to time and I'd have to go restart it. Much as I'd preferred to have stayed on Plan 9 DNS, I switched to BIND 9 on OpenBSD and have had far fewer problems. But anyway, here's the Active Directory support portion of my /ndb/local. This supported a domain whose domain was testad. Like I said, it works, but not as seamlessly as MS DNS or BIND 9 with dynamic updates enabled... (pardon the excessive comments) # # # Active Directory support # See http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd316373.aspx # # # # Domain Controllers: # ip=10.0.0.20 sys=kfdc1 dom=kfdc1.testad.test.local ether= ip=10.0.0.21 sys=kfdc2 dom=kfdc2.testad.test.local ether=005056b36086 # # requisite CNAME aliases # cname=kfdc2.testad.test.local dom=testad.test.local cname=kfdc2.testad.test.local dom=8df1f9af-8c89-4263-9c30-a40ad5ac728f._msdcs.testad.test.local # # SRV records, etc # dom=testad.test.local soa= refresh=3600 ttl=3600 ns=ns2.test.local #ns=ns1.test.local dnsdomain=testad.test.local dom=_ldap._tcp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 dom=_kerberos._tcp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=88 srv=kfcd2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=88 dom=_kpasswd._udp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=464 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=464 dom=_kpasswd._tcp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=464 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=464 dom=_ldap._tcp.dc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 dom=_ldap._tcp.gc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 # only one PDC dom=_ldap._tcp.pdc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 dom=_ldap._tcp.KlamathFalls._sites.gc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 dom=_kerberos._tcp.dc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=88 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=88 dom=gc._msdcs.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=3268 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=3268 dom=_gc._tcp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=3268 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=3268 dom=_ldap._tcp.e3514235-4b06-11d1-ab04-00c04fc2dcd2.domains._msdcs.testad.test.local srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389 srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=1 weight=1 port=389 # Key Management Service dom=_VLMCS._tcp.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc2.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=1688 dom=_ldap._tcp.KlamathFalls._sites.domaindnszones.testad.test.local soa= srv=kfdc1.testad.test.local pri=0 weight=0 port=389
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 GSoC projects selected
2011/4/29 Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm: On 27 Apr 2011, at 6:47 pm, Anthony Sorace wrote: • Unification of X11 code and wsys device, by Jesús Galán López [1] [...] [1] http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/yiyus/1 I'm a bit curious about this one but all I get from the link is This proposal is not made public, and you are not the student who submitted the proposal, nor are you a mentor for the organization it was submitted to. You can read a short abstract here: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/project/google/gsoc2011/yiyus/22001 The main idea is to avoid the duplication of xlib dependent code in inferno, p9p, 9vx and drawterm and write a wsys device to use the window manager of the host system through a file server similar to rio(4). If the new x11 code will be a library or some sort of p9p's devdraw(1) and if the wsys device will be an inferno/drawterm/9vx kernel device or an external program serving 9P are open questions yet. Feel free to ask if you want to know more. -- - yiyus || JGL .
Re: [9fans] spaces in filenames (and filesystems...)
On 28 Apr 2011, at 1:11 pm, Digby Tarvin wrote: On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 11:58:01AM +0200, Peter A. Cejchan wrote: spaces in filenames.. does not it break the rules?? Who actually needs them?? Well, for one thing it's much more natural to type a space than a hyphen or an underscore. For another, I for one am not likely to go through my system renaming the kajillion files I have with spaces in their names, particularly because I'm not sure what would break if I did. ++pac Mostly people who have grown up with graphical user interfaces and have no appreciation of the command line parsing complexity it adds I think. And of course others that have to interract with such people, such as sharing filesystems with them. I'm surprised nobody's noted that rc handles spaces in filenames with far less complexity than Bourne shell. Bourne shell makes things complex by getting all paranoid-obsessive over word-splitting: it must do it at every possible opportunity unless explicitly commanded otherwise using a quoting method which also has other effects. rc is much more sensible, handling spaces transparently in my typical usage: I pick a unique bit out of the middle of the filename and surround that with asterisks. rc does not attempt to split the resultant word whatever you do with it. Perhaps the eval builtin will split it but not much else will. Parsing the output of programs which return filenames is the only common case where I see any complexity from spaces, and then the complexity only consists of setting and reverting $ifs. Granted that could be smoother still, especially where you want a big file list in for(). On a slightly related topics, one of my constant headaches lately is the problem of deciding what filesystem to put on large capacity removeable storage to give me maximum interoperability... Please don't run one topic into another, and please don't use reply to start a new topic. Some of us rely on threaded view, and some mail readers organise threads by a hidden In-Reply-To header.
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 GSoC projects selected
On 29 Apr 2011, at 2:22 pm, yy wrote: You can read a short abstract here: http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/project/google/gsoc2011/yiyus/22001 The main idea is to avoid the duplication of xlib dependent code in inferno, p9p, 9vx and drawterm and write a wsys device to use the window manager of the host system through a file server similar to rio(4). If the new x11 code will be a library or some sort of p9p's devdraw(1) and if the wsys device will be an inferno/drawterm/9vx kernel device or an external program serving 9P are open questions yet. Feel free to ask if you want to know more. Oh, could be good.
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 GSoC projects selected
On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:43 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: On 27 Apr 2011, at 6:47 pm, Anthony Sorace wrote: • Unification of X11 code and wsys device, by Jesús Galán López [1] [...] [1] http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/gsoc2011/yiyus/1 I'm a bit curious about this one but all I get from the link is This proposal is not made public, and you are not the student who submitted the proposal, nor are you a mentor for the organization it was submitted to. yeah, unfortunately the melange links are only visible to folks signed up with us in it. if you'd like details or general discussion, i'd encourage you to jump in on the plan9-gsoc google group. i believe we can optionally make the proposals public; i'll ask the accepted students if they're willing. sorry i didn't think of that earlier. anthony PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Apr 29, 2011, at 4:54 AM, dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com wrote: at any rate, `code removed is code debugged' is very true, but that's not something easily put on CV or boasted to friends. An alternative version, `deleted code is debugged code', has been used very successfully by myself and other colleagues. I first heard the term on a very large VAX/VMS project in 1992 where it succeed in making its way into frequent use.
Re: [9fans] spaces in filenames (and filesystems...)
Parsing the output of programs which return filenames is the only common case where I see any complexity from spaces, and then the complexity only consists of setting and reverting $ifs. Granted that could be smoother still, especially where you want a big file list in for(). be careful. setting ifs is global, and changes ifs for the whole command, and doesn't change the behavior of external programs. so it is both less and more than you want. - erik
Re: [9fans] lenovo or other laptop support
we've had good luck recently with x300 and x61 ron
Re: [9fans] lenovo or other laptop support
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:31 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: we've had good luck recently with x300 and x61 ron x201 tablet also works. John
Re: [9fans] spaces in filenames (and filesystems...)
On 29 Apr 2011, at 3:00 pm, erik quanstrom wrote: Parsing the output of programs which return filenames is the only common case where I see any complexity from spaces, and then the complexity only consists of setting and reverting $ifs. Granted that could be smoother still, especially where you want a big file list in for(). be careful. setting ifs is global, and changes ifs for the whole command, and doesn't change the behavior of external programs. so it is both less and more than you want. I always change it back immediately; a nuisance in for() as it has to be set before and re-set inside. I'm considering whether a new shell builtin would be desirable, similar to ` but always splitting on newlines and only newlines, regardless of $ifs.
Re: [9fans] spaces in filenames (and filesystems...)
I always change it back immediately; a nuisance in for() as it has to
be set before and re-set inside. I'm considering whether a new shell
builtin would be desirable, similar to ` but always splitting on
newlines and only newlines, regardless of $ifs.
this is one thing that byron understood in his version of rc.
he had
x=``ifs {cmd}
the `` was required since `singleton was allowed in his version.
i think that one could just extend the grammar to allow
x=`ifs {cmd}
and i think it would be even better if it were
x=`splitchars {cmd}
so ifs is never set.
- erik
Re: [9fans] lenovo or other laptop support
everything but the wifi works on T61p and X200. -Skip On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:43 AM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote: On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:31 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: we've had good luck recently with x300 and x61 ron x201 tablet also works. John
[9fans] An acme question
Here's something for a brief respite from linux bashing
In acme, at present a single click positions the cursor, a
double click selects either the word under the cursor or the
entire line, depending on the cursor position.
What I would like to do is to the change logic as follows: If
you double *on* a word, the word is selected. If you double
click on white space or a bracket, a whole block is selected,
where a block is defined by matching brackets -- (), {} or [].
This property should be settable on a per window basis.
Example: given
{ fee [({ foo bar}) [and so on]] }
1 2 3456 7
Double clicking at 1 selects foo,
at 2 or 3 selects the phrase { foo bar},
at 4 selects the phrase ({ foo bar}),
at 5 selects the phrase [({ foo bar}) [and so on]],
at 6 selects the phrase [and so on],
at 7 selects the entire { fee [({ foo bar}) [and so on]] } etc.
Note: a block need not fit on one line.
A further enhancement: doubleclicking in a selected block
expands the selection to the surrounding block, without moving
the cursor.
Is this doable or too painful? I took a quick look but
couldn't immediately see how. If doable, how would I go about
it? I was thinking of keeping a list of matched string pairs
(REs might be too powerful) and look for one of left strings
earlier in the file. When one is found, look for the matching
right string later in the file. If none found, select to the
very end.
Surely someone has already tried this?
Thanks,
--bakul
Re: [9fans] An acme question
It sort of does that now, if you double click to (e.g.) immediately to
the right of { or the left of } it selects the block, multi-line or
not. Is this sufficient for you or did I miss something?
ron
Re: [9fans] An acme question
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com wrote:
Here's something for a brief respite from linux bashing
In acme, at present a single click positions the cursor, a
double click selects either the word under the cursor or the
entire line, depending on the cursor position.
What I would like to do is to the change logic as follows: If
you double *on* a word, the word is selected. If you double
click on white space or a bracket, a whole block is selected,
where a block is defined by matching brackets -- (), {} or [].
This property should be settable on a per window basis.
Example: given
{ fee [({ foo bar}) [and so on]] }
1 2 3456 7
Double clicking at 1 selects foo,
at 2 or 3 selects the phrase { foo bar},
at 4 selects the phrase ({ foo bar}),
at 5 selects the phrase [({ foo bar}) [and so on]],
at 6 selects the phrase [and so on],
at 7 selects the entire { fee [({ foo bar}) [and so on]] } etc.
Note: a block need not fit on one line.
A further enhancement: doubleclicking in a selected block
expands the selection to the surrounding block, without moving
the cursor.
Is this doable or too painful? I took a quick look but
couldn't immediately see how. If doable, how would I go about
it? I was thinking of keeping a list of matched string pairs
(REs might be too powerful) and look for one of left strings
earlier in the file. When one is found, look for the matching
right string later in the file. If none found, select to the
very end.
Surely someone has already tried this?
Thanks,
--bakul
Acme can already do most of those things, except that when you double
click on the space between two words (foo bar). Since you can't
really click on a character, rather you can only click between two
characters, it ends up selecting the word rather than the phrase. I
personally think this is quite ok.
John
Re: [9fans] An acme question
On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 10:16:17 PDT ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote:
It sort of does that now, if you double click to (e.g.) immediately to
the right of { or the left of } it selects the block, multi-line or
not. Is this sufficient for you or did I miss something?
It is not quite what I want. 1) You have to position the
cursor just at the right spot and 2) it doesn't include the
surrounding brackets. So if you have
{
alsjakldjd
aldkjaklajsdlka
}
and you click right after {, what gets selected is
alsjakldjd
aldkjaklajsdlka
But thanks! This points out it should be relatively easy!
Re: [9fans] An acme question
On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 10:28:06 PDT John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote: Acme can already do most of those things, except that when you double click on the space between two words (foo bar). Since you can't really click on a character, rather you can only click between two characters, it ends up selecting the word rather than the phrase. I personally think this is quite ok. Good point! Here is what I was thinking (_ below denotes the locations between chars): _ _(_ _f_o_o_ _b_a_r_)_ 1 2 2 3 3 3 2 4 4 4 2 1 Clicking on 4 locations would select bar. Clicking on 3 locations would select foo. Clicking on 2 locations would select ( foo bar). Clicking on 1 locations would select the surrounding block.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:19 AM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: so I'm just speculating.) really? no one has noticed.
Re: [9fans] spaces in filenames (and filesystems...)
On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:17 -0400, erik quanstrom
quans...@labs.coraid.com wrote:
I always change it back immediately; a nuisance in for() as it has to
be set before and re-set inside. I'm considering whether a new shell
builtin would be desirable, similar to ` but always splitting on
newlines and only newlines, regardless of $ifs.
this is one thing that byron understood in his version of rc.
he had
x=``ifs {cmd}
the `` was required since `singleton was allowed in his version.
i think that one could just extend the grammar to allow
x=`ifs {cmd}
and i think it would be even better if it were
x=`splitchars {cmd}
so ifs is never set.
I don't quite understand the first two examples. Do they set ifs only
within the {} ? I guess that risks breaking any scripts you might want
to run as cmd, so yeah, the 3rd looks good.
Re: [9fans] An acme question
Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com writes:
Example: given
{ fee [({ foo bar}) [and so on]] }
1 2 3456 7
Double clicking at 1 selects foo,
at 2 or 3 selects the phrase { foo bar},
at 4 selects the phrase ({ foo bar}),
at 5 selects the phrase [({ foo bar}) [and so on]],
at 6 selects the phrase [and so on],
at 7 selects the entire { fee [({ foo bar}) [and so on]] } etc.
Note: a block need not fit on one line.
If I were filling out an Acme wishlist, I would like to see triple and
quadruple clicks select larger chunks of text. Being able to do
something like click-click-click-click to Select All (in those apps
that support it) is frequently very useful.
I would also move the newline in a selected line to the begining of,
rather than the end of, the selection. It would be much easier to cut
and paste lines if it didn't have to be done from all the way over in
the wee left margin.
--
+---+
|E-Mail: smi...@zenzebra.mv.com PGP key ID: BC549F8B|
|Fingerprint: 9329 DB4A 30F5 6EDA D2BA 3489 DAB7 555A BC54 9F8B|
+---+
Re: [9fans] An acme question
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 2:39 PM, smi...@zenzebra.mv.com wrote:
Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com writes:
Example: given
{ fee [({ foo bar}) [and so on]] }
1 2 3456 7
Double clicking at 1 selects foo,
at 2 or 3 selects the phrase { foo bar},
at 4 selects the phrase ({ foo bar}),
at 5 selects the phrase [({ foo bar}) [and so on]],
at 6 selects the phrase [and so on],
at 7 selects the entire { fee [({ foo bar}) [and so on]] } etc.
Note: a block need not fit on one line.
If I were filling out an Acme wishlist, I would like to see triple and
quadruple clicks select larger chunks of text. Being able to do
something like click-click-click-click to Select All (in those apps
that support it) is frequently very useful.
I would also move the newline in a selected line to the begining of,
rather than the end of, the selection. It would be much easier to cut
and paste lines if it didn't have to be done from all the way over in
the wee left margin.
These are all interesting comments. I suggest you just beat on the
code. Honestly, it's pretty nice in there, you can play to your
heart's content. Give it a go.
ron
Re: [9fans] lenovo or other laptop support
The T410 mostly works: ethernet, (vesa) video, lower-speed usb. It has two EHCI controllers and that seems to interfere with high-speed usb so far. Haven't tried wifi but I wouldn't expect it to work.
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 GSoC projects selected
On Friday, April 29, 2011 05:43:21 AM Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: On 27 Apr 2011, at 6:47 pm, Anthony Sorace wrote: • Unification of X11 code and wsys device, by Jesús Galán López [1] [...] [1] http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/proposal/review/google/ gsoc2011/yiyus/1 I'm a bit curious about this one but all I get from the link is This proposal is not made public, and you are not the student who submitted the proposal, nor are you a mentor for the organization it was submitted to. I know you already received more info, but there was also this recent thread related to the topic: http://www.mail-archive.com/plan9-gsoc@googlegroups.com/msg00431.html
Re: [9fans] spaces in filenames (and filesystems...)
erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net writes:
within the {} ? I guess that risks breaking any scripts you might want
to run as cmd, so yeah, the 3rd looks good.
i implemented the 3d this evening in a compatable way with
Traditional Rc. there's an argument that it's not completely
Did you include an ability to split on the null string, to divide the
data into individual characters/runes?
/me crosses his fingers...
--
+---+
|E-Mail: smi...@zenzebra.mv.com PGP key ID: BC549F8B|
|Fingerprint: 9329 DB4A 30F5 6EDA D2BA 3489 DAB7 555A BC54 9F8B|
+---+
Re: [9fans] spaces in filenames (and filesystems...)
Did you include an ability to split on the null string, to divide the data into individual characters/runes? /me crosses his fingers... | sed 's/(.)/\1 /g'
Re: [9fans] lenovo or other laptop support
I've got a T23 that use to work great. The battery's definitely been a problem lately, but that's what wall warts are for! On Apr 29, 2011, at 6:46 PM, ge...@plan9.bell-labs.com wrote: The T410 mostly works: ethernet, (vesa) video, lower-speed usb. It has two EHCI controllers and that seems to interfere with high-speed usb so far. Haven't tried wifi but I wouldn't expect it to work.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, April 29, 2011 05:21:12 AM Jacob Todd wrote: Seeing that plan 9 doesn't have a c++ compiler, i doubt it will ever be ported. But APE has c++ (old version of gcc though). I expect that a webkit (or gecko) port would need to rely on APE, right? I guess I'd have to start with the build dependencies first, some of them might already be on contrib somewhere. Cinap runs opera 9, flash 7, even blender under linuxemu, though. You might want to take a look at it. 9hal.ath.cx. Thanks for the heads-up, I'll check it out. you can also use vnc on plan 9 if you 'need' to use the web. Yep, I'm aware of the vnc workaround... but, it's just the same as a native, or near-native approach. If the goal was to build a plan 9 network in my house for my friends and family to use, for the purpose of easy administration, according to plan 9 distributed practices - then needing to have linux/bsd boxen completely defeats the purpose, and is counter-productive. On Friday, April 29, 2011 05:32:09 AM erik quanstrom wrote: i don't mind a good lively discussion, but these comments seem a bit trollish to me. I have/had no intent, no interest, and no benefit in trolling; please don't accuse me of being antisocial. I apologize if disingenuous was the wrong term. why don't we get back on track? Ok: On Friday, April 29, 2011 05:32:09 AM erik quanstrom wrote: On Friday, April 29, 2011 03:19:23 AM errno wrote: But then again, why would anyone want a fully functional web experience on Plan 9 - what would be the purpose? Apparently nobody does, otherwise it'd be implemented already. that's not logical. I operated on the understanding that Plan 9 gets developed according to peoples' desire to scratch particular itches. I was also operating under the impression that the clean and well-designed nature of plan 9's abstractions and architecture would facilitate making hard problems easier. Rather than offering speculation, from which to be knocked down and/or insulted for, I figure maybe I should just ask: If it is accepted that people do in fact want a fully functional native (or native-ish) web experience on Plan 9, what is the logical explanation for it still not existing after so many years? (by web experience, I'm not talking about porting firefox and flash to Plan 9 - I'm talking about native or ported libraries for what wikipedia refers to as a web browser engine or layout engine; and by fully functional, I'm talking about something that can score at least an 80% or so on the acid2 test.)
Re: [9fans] lenovo or other laptop support
Jeff Sickel j...@corpus-callosum.com writes: I've got a T23 that use to work great. The battery's definitely been a problem lately, but that's what wall warts are for! I have a T23, and Plan 9 works OK on it, except that I need to boot with sdC0dma=1 and can't seem to figure out how to get audio working. The machine tells me it has an AC97 audio device. Although the kernel recognizes the PCMCIA, I haven't tried using it yet. The screen also goes wierd when the lid is shut. Running aux/vga restores the screen to a correct state, but it's a minor inconvenience. Maybe someday I'll debug that glitch. Has anybody come across a ThinkPad that ISN'T well-supported by Plan 9? IBM TPs are notorious for being Linux-friendly; it makes sense that they'd tend to be 9-friendly, too. -- +---+ |E-Mail: smi...@zenzebra.mv.com PGP key ID: BC549F8B| |Fingerprint: 9329 DB4A 30F5 6EDA D2BA 3489 DAB7 555A BC54 9F8B| +---+
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, April 29, 2011 09:05:39 PM errno wrote: Yep, I'm aware of the vnc workaround... but, it's just the same as a native, or near-native approach. I meant: [...] but, it's just _not_ the same as a native approach.
