Re: [9fans] plan9port acme imageinit: can't open font

[Blake McBride]

Thanks for the pointers.  I tried them and it didn't help.

I suppose I'll move on without acme.  If anyone is ever interested in
taking a look at this, you can see from my original post what I am running.

Thanks.

Blake


On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 10:26 AM Lucio De Re  wrote:

> You nay have to delete the namespace in /tmp that may have been
> created under root's permissions.
> 
> I'm guessing, but it seems the most likely culprit. That, or fontsrv,
> which may also have left something that only root can access. Of
> course, /mnt/font is a dreadful red herring.
> 
> Lucio.

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[9fans] plan9port acme imageinit: can't open font

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I am running Plan9port on Fedora 35.

When I run acme as root, it runs fine.  However, when I try to run it as a
regular user, I get:

$ acme
imageinit: can't open font /mnt/font/Courier/12a/font: 0���
acme: can't open display: 0���
$

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Blake McBride

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Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names

[Blake McBride]

Thanks for the suggestion.  I really wish acme were just fixed.  I find
acme a beautiful editor.  A small number of issues render the editor too
much of a hassle to use for me.  It is a shame because I really like it.
 It is clean, simple, easy to learn, and powerful.

Thanks.

Blake



On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 4:03 AM, Riddler  wrote:

> Perhaps making the tagline a special case where acme will read from the
> left to the bar | and use that for the file/directory name.
>
> You would still have to chord it elsewhere but it might fix the most
> annoying issue (inability to one click put etc)
>
> Thoughts?
> On 19 Aug 2014 21:40, "Blake McBride"  wrote:
>
>> B 'some directory name with spaces'
>>
>> does load the directory correctly.  But as soon as you put the cursor
>> into the directory acme changes the buffer header from "some directory name
>> with spaces" to "some".  Not supporting space in file/directory names has
>> been the single biggest impediment to my use of acme.
>>
>> I noticed Wily doesn't have this problem.  Of course it is missing win,
>> Edit, Tab, etc
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Blake
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:39 PM, andrey mirtchovski <
>> mirtchov...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> with the plumber running, issuing "B /anyfile" will open the file in
>>> acme, even if acme isn't running. this is very useful when you start
>>> scripting little tools.
>>>
>>> i think this covers everything about acme :)
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names

[Blake McBride]

B 'some directory name with spaces'

does load the directory correctly.  But as soon as you put the cursor into
the directory acme changes the buffer header from "some directory name with
spaces" to "some".  Not supporting space in file/directory names has been
the single biggest impediment to my use of acme.

I noticed Wily doesn't have this problem.  Of course it is missing win,
Edit, Tab, etc

Thanks.

Blake


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:39 PM, andrey mirtchovski 
wrote:

> with the plumber running, issuing "B /anyfile" will open the file in
> acme, even if acme isn't running. this is very useful when you start
> scripting little tools.
>
> i think this covers everything about acme :)
>
>

[9fans] p9p on 64 bit Linux

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I am trying to build p9p with the latest LinuxMint on a 64 bit machine.  In
addition to the normal stuff, I think I had to install packages:

libxt-dev
libxext-dev

It built fine, but what I run it I get:

blake@sony-linux-laptop ~ $ acme
acme: error while loading shared libraries: libX11.so.6: cannot open shared
object file: No such file or directory
blake@sony-linux-laptop ~ $


I have:

blake@sony-linux-laptop /usr/lib $ find . -name 'libX11*'
./x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11-xcb.so.1.0.0
./x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11.a
./x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11.so.6.3.0
./x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11-xcb.so.1
./x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11.so.6
./x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11.so


I think it may be looking for 32 bit shared libraries.  I am not sure how
things are getting built on a 64 bit environment.  Your help is greatly
appreciated.

Thanks.

Blake McBride

Re: [9fans] acme: displaying one file in two windows

[Blake McBride]

Thanks!


On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Friedrich Psiorz  wrote:

> Zerox command. In the tag.
>
> ~Fritz
>
> Am 27.12.2013 04:20, schrieb Blake McBride:
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Sometime it is convenient to display the one file in two independent
> > windows.  Naturally, changes in one window would be reflected in the
> > other.  This is especially useful if you have a large file and you would
> > like to edit one section while looking at another section of the same
> > file.  I searched and read the docs but couldn't find a way to do this.
> >  Is there?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Blake McBride
> >
>
>
>

[9fans] acme: displaying one file in two windows

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

Sometime it is convenient to display the one file in two independent
windows.  Naturally, changes in one window would be reflected in the other.
 This is especially useful if you have a large file and you would like to
edit one section while looking at another section of the same file.  I
searched and read the docs but couldn't find a way to do this.  Is there?

Thanks.

Blake McBride

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

Hope my feedback is a help.  I'm ready to try more whenever you are.

Thanks!

Blake



On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:30 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> On Mon Dec 23 22:14:10 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the new boot trial.  I am still getting an error on my HP as
> > follows:
> >
> > ehci . qh . timed out (no inter?)
> >
> > It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen.  Please let me
> > know if more info would be helpful.
>
> sorry to have set the expectation that this error would have been resolved.
> there are still a few limitations in the ehci implementation.  these are
> high on the
> list, but not quite the top yet.
>
> - erik
>
>

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

Thanks for the new boot trial.  I am still getting an error on my HP as
follows:

ehci . qh . timed out (no inter?)

It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen.  Please let me
know if more info would be helpful.

Hope this helps.  Thanks!

Blake



On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 7:03 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> > http://newftp.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 resolves (www vs.
> newftp).
>
> i'm sorry should be ftp, though.  thanks for the correction!
>
> - erik
>
>

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

I am having trouble with that link.  Is it correct?

Thanks.

Blake



On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:11 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> On Thu Dec 19 20:54:04 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > ack, thanks...
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom  >wrote:
> >
> > > > here you go... effectless...
> > > >
> > > > apologies from "Windows Movie Maker"
> > > >
> > > > ... also on google+
> > >
> > > problem diagnosed.  "mwait required".  perhaps i got a bit exuberant
> > > requiring mwait support.  i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm
> > > taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver.
>
> please try the test image @ http://www.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2
> this should fix this issue, and update everything to current.  sorry for
> the long
> delay.
>
> - erik
>
>

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Kurt H Maier  wrote:

> ...
>
> Speaking of assumptions, I'm not convinced 'increasing the number of users'
> does anyone any good.  It didn't help Windows any.
>
> khm
>

Although number of users may not translate into a quality system (Microsoft
is a prime example), number of users does translate into testers with some
valid feedback, code contributors, vendor driver support, and money to pay
core contributors (you?) among many other advantages.  The best advantage
of any networking system comes when an increased number of people use it so
that the value offered by the networking system can be utilized and
appreciated.  There is value in a community.  On the other hand, you can
live in a cave and do whatever you like if you wish.

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

Thanks for the input.  I am making an increased effort to search before
asking.  I intuitively sense that Plan 9 has something significant to offer
based on the little I know.  The actual mechanics have been a challenge for
me.  Constructive feedback is deeply appreciated.


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Rubén Berenguel wrote:

> I somewhat agree that some of the answers you are getting have somewhat
> been (sometimes, not all, and not constantly) been insulting. But a year or
> so ago I was also a Plan9 newbie, and I just read the manuals when I didn't
> know how to do something. I followed some long-ago-read advice of first
> smashing my head against the keyboard before asking the "online guru." And
> by no means I'm an expert in systems programming, other *nixes or anything
> beside a small branch of mathematics (and this is fading, since I'm no
> longer actively researching) and a lot of stuff used in SEO and related
> areas by constant daily use at work.
>
>  I have probably read acme(1) and acme(4) more than 70 times in the past
> year, and probably double that for plumb and plumber (in all of their
> sections.) And there are still a lot of things I don't understand when
> interacting with them, just the other day dove into acme's source to answer
> a question in #plan9 (about what the Abort command does.)
>
> Ruben
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:
>
>> Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but
>> use the documentation as a reminder.  It is difficult for a newbie to
>> differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid
>> documentation.  I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective.  You
>> can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a
>> newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can
>> insult them until they leave.  I apologize for not being as smart as you.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Kurt H Maier  wrote:
>>
>>> Quoting Blake McBride :
>>>
>>>  Or perhaps:
>>>>
>>>> echo newuser USER-NAME  >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>>>>
>>>> replace USER-NAME with the new user's name.  If most commands are in
>>>> lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that
>>>> need
>>>> to be specified.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who
>>> cannot
>>> reason.
>>>
>>> khm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but
use the documentation as a reminder.  It is difficult for a newbie to
differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid
documentation.  I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective.  You
can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a
newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can
insult them until they leave.  I apologize for not being as smart as you.


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Kurt H Maier  wrote:

> Quoting Blake McBride :
>
>  Or perhaps:
>>
>> echo newuser USER-NAME  >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>>
>> replace USER-NAME with the new user's name.  If most commands are in
>> lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need
>> to be specified.
>>
>
> Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who cannot
> reason.
>
> khm
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

Or perhaps:

echo newuser USER-NAME  >>/srv/cwfs.cmd

replace USER-NAME with the new user's name.  If most commands are in
lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need
to be specified.


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:

> It works now.  The docs were unclear to me.  For example, this works:
>
> echo newuser george >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> And this does not work (unsupprisingly):
>
> echo george george >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> Unless you really look at it, it is unclear when to make a substitution
> (or fill in a variable), and when to type it literally.  Perhaps the docs
> should say:
>
> echo newuser   >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> where  is the name of the new user (without the <>).
>
> Thanks.
>
> Blake
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Bence Fábián  wrote:
>
>> Did you append or truncate. That command should work.
>>
>>
>> 2013/12/23 Blake McBride 
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello !
>>>> From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
>>>> Adding Users
>>>>
>>>> Add a new user on the file server:
>>>>
>>>> echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>>>>
>>>> The newuser filesystem command is described in the 
>>>> fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs>
>>>>  manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on
>>> vanilla 9front.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

It works now.  The docs were unclear to me.  For example, this works:

echo newuser george >>/srv/cwfs.cmd

And this does not work (unsupprisingly):

echo george george >>/srv/cwfs.cmd

Unless you really look at it, it is unclear when to make a substitution (or
fill in a variable), and when to type it literally.  Perhaps the docs
should say:

echo newuser   >>/srv/cwfs.cmd

where  is the name of the new user (without the <>).

Thanks.

Blake



On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Bence Fábián  wrote:

> Did you append or truncate. That command should work.
>
>
> 2013/12/23 Blake McBride 
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin wrote:
>>
>>> Hello !
>>> From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
>>> Adding Users
>>>
>>> Add a new user on the file server:
>>>
>>> echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>>>
>>> The newuser filesystem command is described in the 
>>> fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs>
>>>  manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.
>>>
>>
>> The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on
>> vanilla 9front.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

Amazing how something so simple could stump someone.  Thanks!


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Alexander Kapshuk <
alexander.kaps...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 12/23/2013 04:59 PM, Blake McBride wrote:
> > BTW, how do I abort a command such as the cat /dev/kpeint?  I tried
> > ^c, ^d. ^\.  Nothing worked.  I ended up having to delete the entire
> > window.
> Try the Delete key.
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin  wrote:

> Hello !
> From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
> Adding Users
>
> Add a new user on the file server:
>
> echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> The newuser filesystem command is described in the 
> fs(8)
>  manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.
>

The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on
vanilla 9front.

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 10:52 PM,  wrote:

> the fdisk command i gave you could read the partition table fine.
> (it didnt register them, just print)
>
> the code thats handling the automounting (/shr) should'v discovered
> the partitions by running the same command but apparently that didnt
> work. (otherwise, the dos partition should'v shown up in /dev/sdU*)
>
> i can not reproduce this on my systems and i need further information
> to debug this issue.
>
> i would like you to:
>
>   pulling and replugging the usb device and watch the screen to see
>   if there are messages showing up. (you can also run cat /dev/kprint in
> a rio
>   window to capture the console output (make sure to make the window
>   scrolling))
>

I am using vanilla 9front.  I believe it is rio.  I tried putting it in and
out and there is no message on the screen.
I tried cat /dev/kprint and that too did not display anything.

As I mentioned, when plugged in, for some reason, I am getting:

/shr/usb/sdU6.0/ctl
/shr/usb/sdU6.0/data
/shr/usb/sdU6.0/raw

I tried another USB drive.  Same result.

BTW, how do I abort a command such as the cat /dev/kpeint?  I tried ^c, ^d.
^\.  Nothing worked.  I ended up having to delete the entire window.




>
>   try a different dos formatted usb drive.
>
> --
> cinap
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

Great pointers.  Thanks.


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 3:34 AM, Steffen Daode  wrote:

> Blake McBride  wrote:
>  |I don't know what "console" is.  I don't see anything at my Plan-9 Shell
>  |(RC) or on the screen in general.
>
> Note that Francisco J. Ballesteros has written an excellent book
> on operating systems [1] that i also should read in total:
>
>  «Introduction to Operating Systems Abstractions.
>   Using Plan 9 from Bell Labs.
>
>   <http://lsub.org/who/nemo/>
>   <http://lsub.org/who/nemo/papers.html>
>   [1] <http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.intro.pdf>
>
> --steffen
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Blake McBride 
> To: Fans of the OS Plan 9 from Bell Labs <9fans@9fans.net>
> Cc:
> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:43:07 -0600
> Subject: Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 6:03 PM,  wrote:
>
>> thats strange. when you plug in the drive, the nusbrc script
>> started the usb disk filesystem and run that fdisk command to
>> register the partitions. for some reason, the partitions
>> step failed. but when you run it manually later it wored.
>>
>
> I don't get the last two words "it worked" (I presume).  After I execute
> your command, I still don't see it under /shr/sdU*
>
>
>> the drive might be sensitive to the timing?
>>
>> can you pull and replug the drive and see if there are any
>> error messages on the console?
>>
>
> I don't know what "console" is.  I don't see anything at my Plan-9 Shell
> (RC) or on the screen in general.
>
>
>>
>> as a work arround for now, you can try doing this manually:
>>
>> diskparts /dev/sdU6.0
>
> dossrv
>
>
>> mount -c /srv/dos /n/usb /dev/sdU6.0/dos
>
> cd /n/usb
>
>
> Worked.  Thanks!
>
>
>>
>>
>> the dos filesystem does not do write buffering so there is
>> no need to flush. (see dossrv(4))
>>
>> mounts are local to the namespace. you can remove something
>> from the namespace with the unmount command (see bind(1))
>> or you just close the whole namespace (close the rio window).
>>
>> for documentation on formating and partitioning disks see prep(8).
>>
>> --
>> cinap
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

Thanks.  I ended up editing /adm/users directly.  That seemed to work.


On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin  wrote:

> Hello !
> From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin
> Adding Users
>
> Add a new user on the file server:
>
> echo newuser username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> If needed, make the new user a member of the upas (email) group:
>
> echo newuser upas +username >>/srv/cwfs.cmd
>
> The newuser filesystem command is described in the 
> fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs> manpage.
> Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results.
>
> To add a new user to the auth server, make sure auth/keyfs is running,
> then set an auth password for the user:
>
> auth/changeuser username
>
> New users are created without a profile, mail directory, tmp directory
> (needed to edit files with sam) or other confections. To install a
> default profile for a new user, upon first login, run:
>
> . /sys/lib/newuser
>
> then edit /usr/username/lib/profile to your own specifications.
>
> See cwfs(4) <http://man.aiju.de/4/cwfs> and fs(8)<http://man.aiju.de/8/fs>
>  and auth(8) <http://man.aiju.de/8/auth>.
>
>
>
>
> 2013/12/23 Blake McBride 
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I've searched the net to find a way to add a new user.  The following
>> command doesn't work:
>>
>> con -l /srv/fscons
>>
>> I gather that command is for fossil, and fossil isn't used anymore.  I
>> poked around /srv but couldn't find a substitute.  Appreciate any help.
>>
>> Blake
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> С наилучшими пожеланиями
> Жилкин Сергей
> With best regards
> Zhilkin Sergey
>

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

I use ASCII.  Take your pick on how I display the three.


On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:

> > While you're at it; is it "9-Front" (as Andrey said above) and "9-Atom"?
> > So, space with "Plan 9" and dash with the other two?
>
> both 9᠎Front and 9᠎Atom use U+180E, Mongolian Vowel Separator, to
> stand between the digit and the letters. it is a zero-length space
> signifying the major departure from the original canon.
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 9:07 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <
skip.tavakkol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 5:43 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 6:03 PM,  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> the drive might be sensitive to the timing?
>>>
>>> can you pull and replug the drive and see if there are any
>>> error messages on the console?
>>>
>>
>> I don't know what "console" is.  I don't see anything at my Plan-9 Shell
>> (RC) or on the screen in general.
>>
>>
>>
> see definition of console: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_console
>


Just in case you are serious about your comment, I understand what a
"console" is in the most generic terms, i.e. your wikipedia reference.

I also understand that Plan 9 (not Plan-9) has a number of servers.  I
presume a console would be a window into said server.  All this is utterly
useless unless I know the command to get a "console" window into the server
he is referring to.  I need the command.

Actually, if you can read, you'd see that I moved on from this issue.



>
> FYI, it is Plan 9 (i.e. there's a space between); also the shell is rc,
> not RC.
>

While you're at it; is it "9-Front" (as Andrey said above) and "9-Atom"?
 So, space with "Plan 9" and dash with the other two?

[9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I've searched the net to find a way to add a new user.  The following
command doesn't work:

con -l /srv/fscons

I gather that command is for fossil, and fossil isn't used anymore.  I
poked around /srv but couldn't find a substitute.  Appreciate any help.

Blake

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 6:03 PM,  wrote:

> thats strange. when you plug in the drive, the nusbrc script
> started the usb disk filesystem and run that fdisk command to
> register the partitions. for some reason, the partitions
> step failed. but when you run it manually later it wored.
>

I don't get the last two words "it worked" (I presume).  After I execute
your command, I still don't see it under /shr/sdU*


> the drive might be sensitive to the timing?
>
> can you pull and replug the drive and see if there are any
> error messages on the console?
>

I don't know what "console" is.  I don't see anything at my Plan-9 Shell
(RC) or on the screen in general.


>
> as a work arround for now, you can try doing this manually:
>
> diskparts /dev/sdU6.0

dossrv


> mount -c /srv/dos /n/usb /dev/sdU6.0/dos

cd /n/usb


Worked.  Thanks!


>
>
> the dos filesystem does not do write buffering so there is
> no need to flush. (see dossrv(4))
>
> mounts are local to the namespace. you can remove something
> from the namespace with the unmount command (see bind(1))
> or you just close the whole namespace (close the rio window).
>
> for documentation on formating and partitioning disks see prep(8).
>
> --
> cinap
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

Thanks.  I freshly formatted the drive with a DOS partition and put some
files on it for testing.  It reads fine on another machine.  When I issued
your command I got:

part dos 63 31301613

Also, where is a good place to read about formatting, mounting, accessing,
flushing, and unmounting?

Thanks.



On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 5:13 PM,  wrote:

> looks like theres no dos partition. there might be a problem
> reading the drive or there might not be a dos partition there.
> run the following command:
>
> disk/fdisk -p /dev/sdU6.0/data
>
> that should print something like:
>
> part dos 31 4030031
>
> --
> cinap
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

Thanks.  I am using 9front on that machine.  On /shr I have:

d usb
d usbnet

Under /shr/usb I have:

d sdU6.0
- usbevent

Under /shr/usb/sdU6.0 I have:

- ctl
- data
- raw

Under /dev/sdU6.0 I also have:

- ctl
- data
- raw


I don't know what to do from here.

Thanks.






On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 3:30 PM,  wrote:

> the control and data/partition files appear appear
> under /dev/sdU*.
>
> in 9front, dos partition gets automounted and appears
> as /shr/sdU*. no action needed.
>
> in labs plan9, theres a usbfat: script to read the
> partition table and mounts it.
>
> --
> cinap
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

Just for grins, without a network card, how can I mount/read/write to a DOS
formatted USB drive?

Thanks.


On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 2:31 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> > Okay, thanks!  It is an ancient machine.  Thought it would be a good
> place
> > to play with it on.  No sense in messing with it further.
>
> here's what works with plan 9
> - ancient cards tend to work, esp. ne2000-style which
> are used in vms.
> - nearly any intel
> - realtek 8139/8169
> - just a few broadcom parts
> - a few marvel yukon parts
> - myricom 10gbe
>
> some realtek or intel cards are really dirt cheep these days.
> or fleabay.
>
> - erik
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

Okay, thanks!  It is an ancient machine.  Thought it would be a good place
to play with it on.  No sense in messing with it further.


On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 2:04 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> On Sun Dec 22 14:56:12 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote:
>
> > Sorry.
> >
> > 2.1.0  net  02.00.00  14e4/4401  11  0:faffe000 8192
> >
> >
>
> ladd; pci -v 14e4/4401
> 14e4/4401
> Broadcom CorporationBCM4401 100Base-T
>
> looks to be unsupported.
>
> - erik
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

Sorry.

2.1.0  net  02.00.00  14e4/4401  11  0:faffe000 8192



On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 1:48 PM,  wrote:

> thats your graphics card (some radeon). i need the ethernet cad.
>
> pci | grep net
>
> --
> cinap
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

1.0.0:  vid  03.00.00 1002/4c57  11 0:e808 134217728 1:c001 256
2:fcff 65536

Thanks!


On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 1:07 PM,  wrote:

> what network card is in that machine? run the "pci" command and tell
> us the vid/did.
>
> --
> cinap
>
>

[9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I installed 9Front on an old Dell Inspiron 5100.  It seems to run fine.
 While installing it, it asked for dial-up numbers.  Since the machine has
an ethernet card I just typed in random info to get past the prompts.  Now
that it is running, I can't seem to get access to the ethernet network.  (I
am trying to ssh out of it like I do on my VMWare version of 9Front.  The
VMware version works fine.)  I get the impression that 9Front just doesn't
support the ethernet hardware on that machne.  Thought I'd ask.

Thanks.

Blake

[9fans] 9Atom boot issue

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I have an I3, HP laptop that boots fine under 9Front but has a problem
booting 9Atom.  The message I am getting is:

ehci 0xe0001c00: io 0xf004e400 qh 0xf005a300 timed out (no intr?)

cpu0: spurious interrupt 39, last 5

I am merely reporting this in case anyone is interested in the feedback.

Thanks.

Blake McBride

[9fans] New release of Dynace on Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I have released a refreshed port to Plan-9 of my Dynace OO extension to C.
 This is open-source.

Dynace adds advanced OO capabilities to C including a metaobject protocol,
multiple inheritance, generic functions and much more.  In Dynace, classes
are first class objects.  Each class has another class that defines it -
its metaclass - just like Smalltalk and CLOS.  Dynace also has generic
functions and cached dynamic dispatching like Common Lisp's CLOS.

Dynace includes an extensive class library.  It also comes with a complete
GUI development environment (that portion only runs under Windows or
Linux/Mac/BSD/etc. through Wine).

Dynace is extensively documented with two included 300+ page books and a
tutorial.

Dynace is portable to 32 & 64 bit Plan-9, Linux, BSD, Mac, Windows & DOS.

You can download the entire source from:

http://blake.mcbride.name/software/dynace

Blake McBride

(P.S. please make sure you get release 20131220 - in case you are seeing an
old, cached web page.)

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote:

> > I see your point but would argue (in the most
> > friendly way) that the case you point out would be extremely rare, while
> > the reverse case is very common.
>
> "Correctness" (in the context of software engineering) doesn't mean
> doing the right thing in all but the rarest cases; it means doing the
> right thing in every case.  Multiprocessor race conditions are
> extremely rare, but that doesn't absolve us from putting locks around
> critical sections in the kernel to guarantee that "rare" becomes
> "never".
>
> Remember mk is not just used to compile stuff.  It's a "general tool
> for describing and maintaining dependencies between files or
> programs".  If there are cases (even extremely rare ones) when mk can
> finish without establishing all the described dependencies, it's
> broken.  Given the simple low-resolution time stamps currenly
> supported by the Plan 9 file protocol, ensuring that files are updated
> correctly may come at a cost of doing some redundant work.
>
> Think a bit further outside the box than a single-user computer being
> used to compile programs.  Suppose for example there's a cron script
> which uses mk to update indices for the lookman(1) command, or to
> update hash files for ndb(8).  What if someone (maybe in another
> timezone!) happens to be editing a man page or ndb file when the cron
> job activates.  Oops, race condition.  Extremely rare like most race
> conditions, but I for one am happy that mk is robust enough do the
> right thing when the rare occurrence occurs.
>

I see your point, and agree.  I suppose I have been arguing for an _option_
that would assist one person working in one tree at a time - a common but
not utterly common situation.  Also, see my earlier point about fast, prior
dependencies unnecessarily triggering very time consuming dependencies.
 Having been envolved with projects that take 4 hours to build, this could
be very significant.  Again, the _option_ would help a great deal.

Thanks.

Blake

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Kurt H Maier  wrote:

> Quoting Blake McBride :
>
>  There is a difference between valid arguments and club allegiance.
>>
>
> You have not demonstrated a necessity for anyone subscribed to this
> list to give a particular shit about which of the two are at play here.
>


It would take a long email to properly answer that question involving human
motivation.  I think I'll spare myself the time writing it, and the group
with that information.




>
> We don't owe you anything, including a defense of plan 9.
>

Agreed.  You also don't owe your grocer, your tailor, or your gas station
attendant anything either.  There is personal gain we all get by shared
contribution.


> Patches welcome.


I would be much more interested in producing and providing patches if I
wasn't in such fear of upsetting the Plan-9 philosophy.  (That is if
improvements were sufficient.)

I am very, very happy to understand technical reason why things are the way
they are.  I am also humble enough to know that there is a hell of a lot I
can learn from all of you and Plan-9.  Hitting roadblocks with "that's the
way it works and should work" gives me nothing (yes, the nothing you owe
me).




>
>
> khm
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Rudolf Sykora wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On 19 December 2013 20:22, Blake McBride  wrote:
> > Agreed.  I enjoy reasoned debate.  I don't enjoy being told the reason is
> > because "that's the way we do it".  That is not reasoned debate.  It is
> club
> > support.
>
> I believe, from reading this mailing list for some time, you must be ready
> to find many stupid reasonings. But opposite is, fortunately, also true:
> there
> are people here who can help.
>
> Second, you bumped into something which is not 100% to your liking, but on
> the other hand is "simple" and works. The simplicity is, in my
> opinion, what has always
> counted for people seriously-involved in plan9 and is one of the main
> advantages of the plan9 programs.
>
> Third, it would be, from my experience, an error to expect that there are
> no
> errors/flaws in the plan9 programs. When I started to play with plan9,
> I thought:
> it is simple, there are no errors. But in reality, whatever I tried,
> it did not quite
> work. So, my advice is to be ready to find such problems nearly all the
> time.
> And since many people who created the programs are gone by now, there is
> often little effort to correct these, even if there are true bugs.
>
> That's what I think.
>
> Ruda
>
>

Thanks for your thoughtful input!

Unfortunately, I have started and continue to provoke a most unhelpful line
of discussion.  Know that it was (poorly) done with good intention
merely to draw a distinction between technical reasons and "that's the way
we do it" attitudes.

Blake

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 1:09 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> > What I am beginning to understand from comments like this is that there
> is
> > a "club Plan-9".  Everything ever done by the originators of "club
> Plan-9"
> > is correct, period.  No mater what exceptions, special cases, or good
> new
> > ideas occur, they are wrong and we will find some way of rationalizing
> > "club Plan-9".  Anyone can join "club Plan-9" if you buy into that
> > assumption.  The main purpose of Plan-9 forks (with some exceptions) is
> to
> > port to new hardware.  Messing with the premise of "club Plan-9" is
> > significantly frowned upon and attacked.
> >
> > Just a newbie's (with 35 years experience) perception.
>
> first things first.  breaking mk is not a good idea.  to see that things
> could
> break with < rather than <= one only needs to consider a dependency that
> might
> be modified more than once during a build.  for example fu.h that is
> modified
> for a debug version built along a non-debug version.
>
> perhaps there is some truth to this.  certainly plan 9 is not perfect.
> and
> certainly there are things you will improve.  but on the other hand, many
> of us have quite a bit of experience, too.
>


Thanks for the input. I see your point but would argue (in the most
friendly way) that the case you point out would be extremely rare, while
the reverse case is very common.  Adding sleep to the rarer case makes more
sense to me.  Again, I propose an option to mk that, IMO, would have wide
value.

Yes, I realize I can change my version of mk.  In that case, I could do as
I please.  I was hoping to either learn from the experience (perhaps there
is a good reason to have mk make the same stuff repeatedly), or be able to
contribute.

Thanks.

Blake

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 1:12 PM, Skip Tavakkolian <
skip.tavakkol...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You can change anything you want on your system; but don't try to ram it
> down others' throats unless you can prove that you're approach is (a)
> correct (b) meets the collective sense elegance.  Reasoned disagreement is
> not an attack.
>

Agreed.  I enjoy reasoned debate.  I don't enjoy being told the reason is
because "that's the way we do it".  That is not reasoned debate.  It is
club support.

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Kurt H Maier  wrote:

> Quoting Blake McBride :
>
>  What I am beginning to understand from comments like this is that there is
>> a "club Plan-9".  Everything ever done by the originators of "club
>> Plan-9"
>> is correct, period.  No mater what exceptions, special cases, or good new
>> ideas occur, they are wrong and we will find some way of rationalizing
>> "club Plan-9".  Anyone can join "club Plan-9" if you buy into that
>> assumption.  The main purpose of Plan-9 forks (with some exceptions) is
>> to
>> port to new hardware.  Messing with the premise of "club Plan-9" is
>> significantly frowned upon and attacked.
>>
>> Just a newbie's (with 35 years experience) perception.
>>
>
> What I am beginning to understand from comments like this is that there is
> a "club entitlement."  Everything ever done by the members of "club
> entitlement"
> is correct, period.  No matter what preconceptions, bad habits, or
> horrible
> misfeatures exist, they are correct and we will find some way of
> implementing
> "club entitlement."  Anyone can join "club entitlement" if you assume you
> cannot be wrong.  The main purpose of operating systems (with no
> exceptions) is to
> port gnu software.  Messing with the premise of "club entitlement" is
> significantly whined about on tumblr.
>
> Just a newbie's (with six hundred years experience) perception.
>
>
Given the number of times I have been enlightened by this group and shown
to be clearly wrong, I suppose I am not a member of "club entitlement".
 When I make a query, I am looking for examples of why it is done the way
it is.  I have provided examples of why the way it works is a problem.
 Members of "club Plan-9" insist that that is just the way it works, as
opposed to here is a counterexample why the way it works is better.  There
is a difference between valid arguments and club allegiance.

Blake

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:07 AM,  wrote:

> // If you are working on a project, edit some files, and then
> // perform a mk, if files you haven't changed get built, I for
> // one would constantly question myself, about whether or
> // not I changed that file.  It would make things confusing.
>
> It's confusing because it doesn't match your expectations,
> but that's just as much because you're misunderstanding
> the intent of the tool. mk is not a tool for checking for
> changes, it is a tool for ensuring things are up to date. It
> just isn't designed to provide what you're looking for. That
> isn't to say that what you're looking for is unreasonable,
> but mk is not the tool to provide it.
>
> As an aside, I'd suggest learning to simply not worry about
> it. Internalize the fact that mk will sometimes rebuild things
> that don't strictly need it, but will ensure that things are up
> to date, and you'll have an easier time of it.
>
> // I for one favor practical usefulness over theoretical
> // correctness.
>
> You have not demonstrated anything that significantly
> impacts mk's practical usefullness. The fact that mk will, in
> some cases, rebuild things which don't need it doesn't
> significantly impact its utility for its intended purpose.
>
> In Plan 9, the heirarchy of values is different from other
> systems. Correctness (theoretical or otherwise) and
> elegance come above utility. That's not to say there are
> no tradeoffs in the system, but if you're going to give up
> even a little bit of correctness or elegance (environment
> variables?!?), you'd best be prepared to demonstrate a
> rather substantial utility gain. Given how much use this
> community has gotten out of mk over the past ~27
> years, I think it's safe to say we're not sold.
>
> Anthony
>
>
>
What I am beginning to understand from comments like this is that there is
a "club Plan-9".  Everything ever done by the originators of "club Plan-9"
is correct, period.  No mater what exceptions, special cases, or good new
ideas occur, they are wrong and we will find some way of rationalizing
"club Plan-9".  Anyone can join "club Plan-9" if you buy into that
assumption.  The main purpose of Plan-9 forks (with some exceptions) is to
port to new hardware.  Messing with the premise of "club Plan-9" is
significantly frowned upon and attacked.

Just a newbie's (with 35 years experience) perception.

Blake

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Tristan <9p...@imu.li> wrote:

> > > how long does it take you to run mk, and then realise you didn't Put
> your
> > > last set of changes?
>
> > > i once changed mk on my local machine to act as you suggest, and then
> > > took far too long trying to figure out why the program's behavior
> didn't
> > > reflect the code. more time than i saved from waiting on mk? whoknows?
>
> > If the situation you describe can happen then it definitely shouldn't be
> > changed.  Could you please provide me with a scenario (sequence of
> events)
> > that would be a problem if mk was changed?  I can't think of one.
>
> i thought i just described one in acme:
>
> change stuff
> middle click Put
> change more stuff
> middle click mk


I assume at least one second would transpire here.


>
> middle click Put (within the same second of a file's compile)
> middle click mk (don't notice that the file wasn't recompiled)
>

Would work correctly assuming the above.


>
> tristan
>
> --
> All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
>
>

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

Yea, got that.  I just thought it made sense for a wider audience.


On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Jacob Todd  wrote:

> No one is stopping you from changing it in your installation.
> On Dec 19, 2013 11:38 AM, "Blake McBride"  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Tristan <9p...@imu.li> wrote:
>>
>>> > I for one favor practical usefulness over theoretical correctness.  An
>>> > environment variable option would trivially satisfy both groups. It
>>> could
>>> > operate as-is so nothing pre-existing would be affected.
>>>
>>> how long does it take you to run mk, and then realise you didn't Put
>>> your
>>> last set of changes?
>>>
>>> i once changed mk on my local machine to act as you suggest, and then
>>> took far too long trying to figure out why the program's behavior didn't
>>> reflect the code. more time than i saved from waiting on mk? who knows?
>>>
>>
>> If the situation you describe can happen then it definitely shouldn't be
>> changed.  Could you please provide me with a scenario (sequence of events)
>> that would be a problem if mk was changed?  I can't think of one.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Blake
>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Tristan <9p...@imu.li> wrote:

> > I for one favor practical usefulness over theoretical correctness.  An
> > environment variable option would trivially satisfy both groups. It
> could
> > operate as-is so nothing pre-existing would be affected.
>
> how long does it take you to run mk, and then realise you didn't Put your
> last set of changes?
>
> i once changed mk on my local machine to act as you suggest, and then
> took far too long trying to figure out why the program's behavior didn't
> reflect the code. more time than i saved from waiting on mk? who knows?
>

If the situation you describe can happen then it definitely shouldn't be
changed.  Could you please provide me with a scenario (sequence of events)
that would be a problem if mk was changed?  I can't think of one.

Thanks.

Blake

Re: [9fans] Problem with mk

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:16 AM, dexen deVries wrote:

> the problem is not solved, merely one of the manifestation is eliminated.
> actual solution requires stating all the dependencies.
>
> if your list of sources and/or targets is dynamic, consider using mkinclude:
> <| GEN_DEPS
> where `GEN_DEPS' is your script generating deps in form TARGET:
> PREREQUISITE
>
>
The following mkfile does what I need/expect without explicit dependencies.

# Makefile for Plan 9

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 8:55 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> > I was thinking about the problem and actually, at least in all
> > circumstances I can think of, changing that one operation from <= to <
> > would fix the problem.  If the times are on the same second, I would
> never
> > have had time to change it.  This would fix the problem.  Perhaps this
> > functionality can be controlled by an environment variable like NPROC.
>
> i thought this idea might come up.  i think the reason not to do this
> is a very fundamental principle: correctness.  never give up on
> correctness.
>
>
I for one favor practical usefulness over theoretical correctness.  An
environment variable option would trivially satisfy both groups. It could
operate as-is so nothing pre-existing would be affected.

Blake

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:40 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:
>
>
> to be more explicit.  if a is built from b and mtime(a) <= mtime(b), then
> mk could fail to rebuild a when it needs to.  for correctness, mk must
> use <=
> not <.
>

I was thinking about the problem and actually, at least in all
circumstances I can think of, changing that one operation from <= to <
would fix the problem.  If the times are on the same second, I would never
have had time to change it.  This would fix the problem.  Perhaps this
functionality can be controlled by an environment variable like NPROC.

I think this is important as follows.  If you are working on a project,
edit some files, and then perform a mk, if files you haven't changed get
built, I for one would constantly question myself, about whether or not I
changed that file.  It would make things confusing.  Also, and perhaps more
importantly, it may occur that a very long build is dependant on a very
short preceding build.  So, the unnecessary rebuild of the fast process can
unnecessarily trigger the very long process.  This really needs addressing
for that reason especially IMO.

Thanks.

Blake

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 4:16 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> > I think this is caused because the time slice is too short and the system
> > can't tell the build times apart.  Even though main clearly came after
> main.8
> > the system sees them as the same time.  Of course this can cause mk to
> > dothe link again unnecessarily if
> > mk is called again.  This is what is happening to me.  Each time I mk it
> > builds less.
> >
> > Perhaps this is a problem with 9port under VMware.  Perhaps, in certain
> > environments, the time slices are too big.
> >
> > Any experience or thoughts on the matter are greatly appreciated.
>
> you are correct.  this is all about time resolution.  plan 9
> times are recorded in 1s resolution, and unless you have a very slow
> processor, or a very big program, building & linking a program can take
> less than 1s.
>
> - erik
>
>
So, I think you are saying, that for pieces in a mkfile that take less than
1s to build it is possible for them to be build again, unnecessarily, when
mk is run again.  This is normal and just the way it is.  Is that correct?

Thanks!

Re: [9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

Thanks for the encouragement.  I'll move into other areas soon.  I'll try
to do as much research as possible before posting.


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Matthew Veety  wrote:

>
>
> > On Dec 18, 2013, at 17:01, Blake McBride  wrote:
> >
> > I apologize for beating the heck out of the group.  I admit that some of
> my questions are premature.  I appreciate everyones help.
> >
>
> Don't worry about asking questions ever, man. It's good to see, seeing
> people willing to ask questions is rare nowadays and shows that you have
> true sack.
>

[9fans] mk time-check/slice issue

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I apologize for beating the heck out of the group.  I admit that some of my
questions are premature.  I appreciate everyones help.

I have a better handle on what is going on, and with that knowledge, I was
able to restructure the mkfile to work correctly in parallel.  I am
encountering a new problem, however.

Mk (and make) look at file times to determine what needs to be built.
 Cool.  When I type "mk" my app builds just fine.  The problem is that if I
type "mk" again, it (at least) partially builds again.  If I keep doing
this, eventually it says my target is up-to-date.

What I think is going on is that this little test app builds so fast that
the file write times look like they are the same time.  For example if I
build main.c and then do:

ls -lrt

I should see them listed in this order:

main.c
main.8
main

but sometimes I see them like this:


main.c
main
main.8

I think this is caused because the time slice is too short and the system
can't tell the build times apart.  Even though main clearly came after main.8
the system sees them as the same time.  Of course this can cause mk to
dothe link again unnecessarily if
mk is called again.  This is what is happening to me.  Each time I mk it
builds less.

Perhaps this is a problem with 9port under VMware.  Perhaps, in certain
environments, the time slices are too big.

Any experience or thoughts on the matter are greatly appreciated.


Blake

Re: [9fans] Problem with mk

[Blake McBride]

Thanks.  That is what I was wondering.  In the interim, and having a better
understanding of what is going on, I was able to re-work my mkfile to
support parallel builds where possible.  I am, however, experiencing a new
problem.  I will write that up in a separate post.

Thank for the info!

Blake



On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:04 PM, Jacob Todd  wrote:

> You could put NPROC=1 in the mkfile.
>

Re: [9fans] Problem with mk

[Blake McBride]

The problem is solved, but I do have questions that I couldn't the answer
to in any of the docs.


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 9:37 AM, dexen deVries wrote:
>
>
> -s won't help you there, because it regards processing of /command line/
> arguments, not of prerequisites. consider:
>
> $ NPROC=1 mk my_target
>


The NPROC=1 solved the problem.  My mkfile is written in a way that
requires a sequential operation.  I need to look at it further.  Think a
large part of my problem was a misunderstanding of the -s option.  Anyway,
here is a question.  Presuming I can't fix my mkfile to operate in
parallel, is there a way to cause sequential operation other than the
"NPROC=1" at the command line?  It's too easy to forget.  Is there a way to
specify that mode of operation by something I put into the mkfile?

Thanks!

Blake

Re: [9fans] Problem with mk

[Blake McBride]

In particular, why would manual execution while echoing $status (to be sure
no errors are reported) work, but mk execution of the exact same sequence not
work?

Thanks!

Blake



On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:20 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:

> In response to both of you:
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Blake McBride 
>  wrote:
>
>> ...
>>
>>
>> I remain confident that there is a thought out, reasonable algorithm
>> employed by mk that I am yet ignorant of.
>>
>> Blake
>>
>>
> If you could point me in the right direction, I'd surely appreciate it.
>
>

Re: [9fans] Problem with mk

[Blake McBride]

In response to both of you:

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Blake McBride  wrote:

> ...
>
> I remain confident that there is a thought out, reasonable algorithm
> employed by mk that I am yet ignorant of.
>
> Blake
>
>
If you could point me in the right direction, I'd surely appreciate it.


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Bakul Shah  wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:28:21 CST Blake McBride  wrote:
> >
> > I'd be a better judge if I understood the purposeful, thought out reason
> > behind the problems I am experiencing - assuming there is one.  "That's
> > just the way it works" or "we do it differently because we are not unix"
> > are stupid as hell arguments.
>
> "That's just the way it works" is exactly the right attitude
> to take when you are learning a new language or entering a new
> culture! Expecting the new language/culture/world to be better
> or similar to the old will lead to a lot of frustration and
> slow you down quite a bit. So leave your value judgements at
> the door and just try to understand things *as they are*.
>
> > I remain confident that there is a thought out, reasonable algorithm
> > employed by mk that I am yet ignorant of.
>
> Tom Knight and the Lisp Machine
>
> A novice was trying to fix a broken Lisp machine by
> turning the power off and on.
>
> Knight, seeing what the student was doing, spoke sternly:
> You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no
> understanding of what is going wrong.
>
> Knight turned the machine off and on.
>
> The machine worked.
>
>

Re: [9fans] Problem with mk

[Blake McBride]

Often there is a set of reasonable, alternative algorithms one may utilize
to solve a problem.  Then, there is a set of unreasonable algorithms one
may employ that may or may not solve the problem given various conditions.
 "make" has a proven reasonable algorithm to solve the problem for which it
was designed.  It employs one algorithm among other possible, and equally
good, algorithms.  You are implying that mk is using another valid
algorithm rather than an unreasonable one.  I can't see it yet.

I'd be a better judge if I understood the purposeful, thought out reason
behind the problems I am experiencing - assuming there is one.  "That's
just the way it works" or "we do it differently because we are not unix"
are stupid as hell arguments.

I remain confident that there is a thought out, reasonable algorithm
employed by mk that I am yet ignorant of.

Blake


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Bakul Shah  wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:11:22 CST Blake McBride  wrote:
> > >
> > > Somehow Unix or GNU "make" doesn't mix up buffered stdout with
> unbuffered
> > > stderr output.  They remain in order so the total out of make and all
> of
> > > the commands are shown in order and in context.  You know, so a human
> can
> > > understand it.  mk appears not to handle this the same.  stdout output
> > > and stderr output are totally out of sequence making it very, very
> > > difficult to understand what is going on.
> > >
> > >
> > mk should flush stdout after completion each command.
>
> Just as plan9 is not unix, mk is not make. Rather than expect
> it to behave like make, it pays to understand how mk works,
> may be by experimenting with little mkfiles.
>
>

Re: [9fans] Problem with mk

[Blake McBride]

This is not D.  It is a language of my own design called Dynace.  It adds
multiple inheritance, a metaobject protocol, generic functions, weak
typing, garbage collection all to standard C.  Class users (*.c files) are
standard C in every way, there is only one data type added.  The system is
written entirely in portable C, and has been used in production
environments for years.  It also comes with a 350 page book that completely
documents it, and a tutorial.  I've got it running on Plan-9 except for
this mkfile issue with the examples.

The system is open-source.  A new release will come out with Plan-9 support
as soon as I get the mkfile issue solved.

Thanks.






On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:06 AM, Aram Hăvărneanu  wrote:

> D on Plan 9? This is madness.
>
> --
> Aram Hăvărneanu
>
>

Re: [9fans] Problem with mk

[Blake McBride]

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Blake McBride  wrote:
>
>
> Problem 3:
>
> Somehow Unix or GNU "make" doesn't mix up buffered stdout with unbuffered
> stderr output.  They remain in order so the total out of make and all of
> the commands are shown in order and in context.  You know, so a human can
> understand it.  mk appears not to handle this the same.  stdout output
> and stderr output are totally out of sequence making it very, very
> difficult to understand what is going on.
>
>
mk should flush stdout after completion each command.

Re: [9fans] Problem with mk

[Blake McBride]

Thanks for the help!  See below:


On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 9:37 AM, dexen deVries wrote:

> On Wednesday 18 of December 2013 09:23:19 Blake McBride wrote:
> >
> > Problem 1:
> >
>
>
> it seems you have an un-stated dependency/cies among your intermediate
> targets
> / prerequisites.
>
> Say, foo.o depends on foo.c and foo.h -- but foo.h also depends on
> generated_foo.h, which should be generated by make.
>
> in such case, explicitly state (no recipe is necessary):
>
>
> foo.h: generated_foo.h
>
>
> so mk knows the `generated_foo.h' must be completed first.
>



Yea, actually my build process is a bit more complex than that.  What I am
doing reflects that complexity and works perfectly with make.

_Initially_ (the first time), generics.h gets built through the generics.1
target, and then updated through the generics.h target process.
 Thereafter, as the program evolves, new classes are added (*.d files) and
changed, generics.h gets updated through the generics.h process only.  The
generics.h target process reads in generics.h and updates it based on the
changed *.d files.  You can think of generics.h as a database of generic
functions that needs to be initialized and then updated as the system
evolves.

The purpose of using rules rather than explicit recipes is because the
mkfile is often used as a template for much larger projects.  The pattern
is convenient.  Larger projects just have to update the three variables
TARGET, CLASSES, and CFILES.  If I don't use recipes, the mkfile gets
unnecessarily lengthy with larger projects.

Also, in spite of my use of a recipe rather than an explicit rule, why
would that cause mk to barf?




>
>
> > Problem 2:
> >
> > Even though I am executing mk with the "-s" option, it still seems like
> it
> > is running in parallel because a subsequent command can't find a file
> > created by a prior command - as if it didn't wait for the prior command
> to
> > finish.  Remember this build fine, and without error codes, when
> executed
> > manually.
>
>
>
> -s won't help you there, because it regards processing of /command line/
> arguments, not of prerequisites. consider:
>
> $ NPROC=1 mk my_target
>
> also investigate -d[egp] debug stuff.
>

Yes, I didn't see a difference with or without the -s.  I just used it to
eliminate one possible source of problems.  Also, the random intermixing of
stdout and stderr causes me not to know what the order of execution is.


>
>
> have fun with mk, it's a great little tool :-)
>

I'm sure it is.  If I can get it to treat generics.h as a database as I
described above, it would be great.

Thanks!


>
>
>
> --
> dexen deVries
>
> [[[↓][→]]]
>
> Take care of the luxuries and the necessities will take care of themselves.
> -- L. Long
>
>
>

[9fans] Problem with mk

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I have spent hours on a trivial problem that I still haven't figured out. I
am using 9front, and I am building a C app using mk.  I understand about
that parallel stuff so I am calling mk with -s for now.  There are actually
three problems, but the fact that it won't build is clearly the first.
 Here are the facts:

Problem 1:

If I execute "mk -s", mk prints out what it is executing interspersed with
messages from the command being executed.  Somewhere in the middle I see:

mk: ../../bin/dpp -g -t ... : status=rc 1357: dpp 1359: Exit code 1

Each time I run it, the two numbers (1357 & 1369) are different.  This
message is showing up in the middle of all of the commands getting executed.

If I execute "mk -n" and manually execute each command the build succeeds.

If I manually execute each command and append "; echo $status" to each
command, no error code is ever displayed.

Since I can build manually, and I get no error codes when I do so, I cannot
figure out what the problem is.

Problem 2:

Even though I am executing mk with the "-s" option, it still seems like it
is running in parallel because a subsequent command can't find a file
created by a prior command - as if it didn't wait for the prior command to
finish.  Remember this build fine, and without error codes, when executed
manually.

Problem 3:

Somehow Unix or GNU "make" doesn't mix up buffered stdout with unbuffered
stderr output.  They remain in order so the total out of make and all of
the commands are shown in order and in context.  You know, so a human can
understand it.  mk appears not to handle this the same.  stdout output and
stderr output are totally out of sequence making it very, very difficult to
understand what is going on.



Here is my mkfile:

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

I apologize for that statement.  I made it before I knew of 9Front and
9Atom.  From what I saw, the code hadn't changed in a long time, and
wouldn't boot in any environment I had.  All that is false when you take
into account 9Front and 9Atom.  I now have 9Front running fine, and, in
fact, I am renewing a port of an OO language extension to it.

Blake



On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Oleksandr Iakovliev
wrote:

>  On 2013-12-15 18:05 , Blake McBride wrote:
>
> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9
> has no real future.
>
>
> I would not agree about that. If you would try to have a look at coming
> future tendencies, you would be notified that there is coming what is now
> named as "internet of things" where a lot of material objects in your
> environment will have very small chips which would like to communicate to
> each other and so on (there are already "scary" news about arrested china
> transport containers of electric-irons and kettles which have some extra
> less 1cm chip/device to listen for open wifi nets and spy on them or do
> whatever they are programmed ;) ).
>
> Another tendency which is not so clear now but it is also coming:
> computers/devices/systems/grids which perform actions being same time what
> is called interface-less (good example is your car which automatically
> identify you by sensors and wireless key/cellphone in your pocket when you
> touch cardoor and then system just unlocks that - lot of computations,
> communications and same time interfaceless).
>
> When you try to add these two tendencies to each other it would look like
> that the next generation OSes should be much close to Plan9/Inferno because
> it should easily cover connectivity and inter-communications of these grids
> of tens/hundred/thousands of chips/soc/devices per 10 cubic meters around
> you  or worldwide (btw you can just read story about "bad bios" and suspect
> of ultrasonic communications). They(OS) should be simple regarding internal
> design. Parallel programming, computing/resource sharing, CSP, etc is
> highly required and should not be complicated as it is now in world of
> Unix/Linux/MS/Apple and should be possible to be programmed by individuals
> or small groups.
> Why not MS/Apple-like solution - because then such "nets" will be closed
> and not really manageable at all.
> Why not Linux - it is already over-sized and overcomplicated and highly
> resistive to design changes, so even an admin with 1meter beard cannot see
> all especialities of these such system/nets and cannot administering such
> grids manually. Also consider the security of these complicated systems as
> effect of simplicity of design of each part.
> Regarding Apps - Plan9/Inferno have "reverse" idea: instead of App to
> support environment where it has to run, it makes the environment to fit
> the App needs - much more productive, stable, manageable.
> It should be something simple, easy to join in swarm. Then interface part
> does not have such huge value - even if it is ms system with browser - this
> part does not play "key" role anymore. Plan9/Inferno or their derivatives
> now have great chance for resurrection aka phoenix, but not as your laptop
> OS with nicely drawn weather/news widgets or animated icons, though even
> this is possible.
>
> just my 2cents for what we may see next
>

Re: [9fans] 9front pegs CPU on VMware

[Blake McBride]

I am running a dual core setup.  CPU info is:

vendor GenuineIntel
procmodel 00020655 / 00010800
features fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat
features pse36 clflush dts mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss
features pni pclmulqdq ssse3 cx16 sse4_1 sse4_2 x2apic popcnt aes
hypervisor
extmodel  / 
extfeatures nx tscp lm
extfeatures ahf64
procname Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU   M 620  @ 2.67GHz
physbits 40
virtbits 48

I have the latest version of VMware Fusion.  I don't have this problem with
a Linux, OpenIndiana, NetBSD, etc.  I did have the problem with MS-DOS but
downloaded a fix.

Thanks.

Blake



On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 4:17 AM,  wrote:

> the idlehands() on 9front is as follows:
>
> /*
>  *  put the processor in the halt state if we've no processes to run.
>  *  an interrupt will get us going again.
>  */
> void
> idlehands(void)
> {
> extern int nrdy;
>
> if(conf.nmach == 1)
> halt();
> else if(m->cpuidcx & Monitor)
> mwait(&nrdy);
> }
>
> the reason for not just unconditionally calling halt() on a
> *multiprocessor*
> is that this would keep the processor sleeping even when processes become
> ready to be executed. there is currently no way for the first woken
> processor
> to wakup another one other than the monitor/mwait mechanism; which for some
> reason seems not to be emulated in that vmware fusion setup. one can run
> aux/cpuid to see what processor features are supported.
>
> yes, theres the HZ tick that should wake up the sleeping processor
> eventually,
> but then it might be too late.
>
> note, this only applies to *multiprocessor* systems. so when you setup your
> vm with just a single cpu, it will not waste cycles spinning.
>
> --
> cinap
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9front pegs CPU on VMware

[Blake McBride]

Good point.  I can't.


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 8:58 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:

> welcome to the club. now do the same thing with linux. and try to
> regale your experience in less than 4 blogposts :)
>
>

Re: [9fans] 9front pegs CPU on VMware

[Blake McBride]

Thanks.  That fixed the problem.  For the faint at heart, here is what I
did:

cd /sys/src/9/pc
acme main.c

At the bottom of the file there is a function named idlehands(void).
 Change that function to do nothing but call halt().

Then, from that same directory, build the kernel with:

mk 'CONF=pcf'

Then install the kernel with:

9fs 9fat
cp 9pcf /n/9fat

Halt the system with:

fshalt

Reboot the machine.






On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 7:52 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> > I am running 9plan on VMware Fusion successfully, however, the CPU is
> > pegged.  I've seen this before with DOS.  Basically the OS has its own
> idle
> > loop so VMware sees it as always using CPU.  There is a patch to fix this
> > issue with a DOS guest.  Any ideas with 9front?
>
> change idlehands in /sys/src/9/pc to call halt unconditionally instead of
> whatever it's doing now.
>
> - erik
>
>

[9fans] 9front pegs CPU on VMware

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I am running 9plan on VMware Fusion successfully, however, the CPU is
pegged.  I've seen this before with DOS.  Basically the OS has its own idle
loop so VMware sees it as always using CPU.  There is a patch to fix this
issue with a DOS guest.  Any ideas with 9front?

Thanks.

Blake McBride

Re: [9fans] Compiling C under 9front

[Blake McBride]

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 7:33 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> On Sun Dec 15 20:31:47 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote:
>
> > Greetings,
> >
> > I've got 9front running but I am having trouble compiling a hello.c
> program.
> >
> > term% 6c hello.c
> > term% 6l hello.6
> > ??none??: cannot open file: /amd64/lib/libc.a
> >
> > I already looked in google, the email list, and FAQ's that I could find.
> >  Your help is appreciated.
>
> cd /sys/src; objtype=amd64 mk libs
>
> - erik
>
>
Thanks!  It went through a bunch of compiles and library adds
successfullybut ended in:

...
a - utfutf.6
a - u16.6
a - u32.6
a - u64.6
amd64
Can't cd amd64: 'amd64' directory not found
mk: for(i in 9sys ... : exit status=rc 1544: rc 2737: can't cd
mk: date for (i ...  : exit status=rc 1058: rc 1477: mk 1543: error
term%

[9fans] Compiling C under 9front

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I've got 9front running but I am having trouble compiling a hello.c program.

term% 6c hello.c
term% 6l hello.6
??none??: cannot open file: /amd64/lib/libc.a

I already looked in google, the email list, and FAQ's that I could find.
 Your help is appreciated.

Blake McBride

Re: [9fans] 9front vs. 9atom

[Blake McBride]

Will do.


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:37 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> > I briefly looked at 9front and 9atom.  I thought I would query this group
> > about the two.  Is one better maintained than the other?  Does one have
> > better hardware support than the other?
>
> i'd appreciate some feedback on the usb install process if you get a
> chance.
> http://ftp.9atom.org/other/usbinstamd64.bz2
> it can be used as a live environment as well, though it's inconvienent for
> that,
> as only the minimum set of executables are included.  this was done to keep
> the image size down to a minimum.
>
> - erik
>
> ps.  9atom.org will be down from 21:00 pm EST 15 dec to
> 03:00 am EST 16 dec (02:00am - 07:00am GMT) for network
> maintence.
>
>

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Bence Fábián  wrote:

>
> This whole discussion has devolved into all the exact same discussions
> when someone comes to save us from ourselves.
> If you are too lazy to look into the archives at least read this:
> http://jfloren.net/b/2012/4/27/0
>
>
Yes, that surely fits me at this point. Sorry.  I'll try to heed the advice.

BTW, I downloaded 9front and it installed on VMware without a problem.  Not
surprisingly, I'm pretty lost.  Looking around, there is a lot of
information around the net.  The problem is that some of it is out of date.
 I'll try to keep the questions to a minimum.  I appreciate the help.

Blake

Re: [9fans] 9front vs. 9atom

[Blake McBride]

Thank you, Tristan.


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Tristan <9p...@imu.li> wrote:

> > Quoting Kurt...
> > > Is one better maintained than the other?
> > Yes.
> 9atom.
>
> > > Does one have better hardware support than the other?
> > Yes.
> 9front.
>
> > khm
> tristan
>
> --
> All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
>
>

[9fans] 9front vs. 9atom

[Blake McBride]

I now see there are, at least, a couple of forks of Plan-9 with the goal of
keeping off bit rot and making bug fixes and enhancements.  Since I've had
a lot of trouble attempting to boot Plan-9 on a laptop, VMWare Fusion, and
a Linux VM Server, I thought I'd try the forks.  (Actually, Plan-9
installed everywhere I tried but the graphics stuff didn't work.)

I briefly looked at 9front and 9atom.  I thought I would query this group
about the two.  Is one better maintained than the other?  Does one have
better hardware support than the other?

Thanks for the help.

Blake McBride

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Lee Fallat  wrote:

> ...Tell that to the people who are maintaining 9front and 9atom.
>
>
I wasn't aware of those two.  Thanks!

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like
debate.  Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs
and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support
from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot
anywhere anymore.

Here is an exercise for fun too.  Create your own written language, and
write a bunch of books in it.  Have fun.

Blake



On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 2:17 PM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> > "major piece among many" can be more precisely stated as "many pieces
> among
> > many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users".
>
> the metaphor "critical mass" is really tiresome one.  it does not apply
> to operating systems.  if one person finds the os useful, then that's
> enough.
>
> i'm not entirely clear how this metaphor is supposed to be interpreted, but
> perhaps the idea is that with lots of users, lots of software gets written
> and
> clearly more is better.
>
> or maybe not.  plan 9 is a research system.  for me that means we use it as
> it makes doing new and interesting things, or the same thing in an
> interesting
> way easy.  so having piles of ported software is at best a distraction.
>
> - erik
>
>

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

"major piece among many" can be more precisely stated as "many pieces among
many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users".


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Steve Simon  wrote:

>  But this is just one major piece among many.
>
> Perhaps for you but not for me, the only thing is really missi s a browser.
>
> Very occasuinally I need to edit word documents but this is rare
> enough that I don't really care.
>
> -Steve
>
>

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

Linux, android, Windows, and iOS all reached a critical mass in terms of
programmer and end-user apps in order to survive.  Plan-9 did not.  A
quality web browser on Plan-9 is critical to its usefullness by many.  But
this is just one major piece among many.


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Steve Simon  wrote:

> I have no desire to develope c++ code on plan9 but if there was a simple
> way to
> cross compile c++ applications for plan9 that would be great - firefox
> being
> the obvious one.
>
> This has been done to death, and the closest we ever came to it (IMHO) was
> cinap's linuxemu - this allowed you to run the linux firefox, or even opera
> on plan9. I required the use of fgb's x11 port as a display engine, and so
> it is perhaps not the most minimal solution however it works.
>
> -Steve
>
>

[9fans] Acme: tab size

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I noticed tab size on sam is 8 characters.  This is somewhat standard.
 Acme uses 4 (which is perhaps more reasonable in many circumstances).  How
can one control the tab size on acme?

Thanks.

Blake McBride

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

All of this talk sound like someone saying:  imagine the hurdles of sending
a man to the moon.  how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio
is so poor

The only limit is ones imagination and creativity.

Blake



On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Oleg  wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:05:53AM -0600, Blake McBride wrote:
> > In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9
> has
> > no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas
> > Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the
> best,
> > most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and
> availability
> > is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand that,
> since
>
>   Hm. The most progressive ideas in plan9 kernel. So, replacing plan9
> kernel
> with linux kernel, you will get something strange and not very useful at
> all.
>
>

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

Couldn't agree more.


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Keith  wrote:

> Who here remembers/knows of the vision for the apple newton? The iPad
> realized it when the technology was able and the time was right. Who is to
> say the same couldn't be said for 9?

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

Okay.  Got it.


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Bence Fábián  wrote:

> Bottomline is this: People would never use software like that. The ones
> who do are already familiar with Plan 9 and weighted pros and cons years
> ago. 99,9% of the potential users are already on this mailing list and
> watched this exact same exchange a dozen times.
>
>
> 2013/12/15 Blake McBride 
>
>> I, respectfully, disagree.  The end purpose of any OS, platform, or
>> program is to perform some sort of function.  That end function is called
>> an app.  An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The
>> underlying environment (including tools) determines the available
>> facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app.  Unix brings
>> far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the
>> construction and operation of an app.  The new ideas embodied in Plan-9
>> bring considerable enhancements to such an environment.
>>
>> If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the
>> value of Plan-9?  Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool
>> ideas with no end or purpose in mind?
>>
>> Blake
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence Fábián  wrote:
>>
>>> If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and
>>> Java, I will fight against it till my dying breath.
>>>
>>> Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use
>>> apps. Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate
>>> that. If you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write
>>> device drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML
>>> folks that they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/12/15 Blake McBride 
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> .  The lack of a
>>>>> web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability
>>>>> limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
>>>>> with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
>>>>> cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless.  Thanks to Russ Cox
>>>>> for P9P!
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make.  I read Rob
>>>> Pike's comments at:
>>>>
>>>> http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/
>>>>
>>>> and it really got me thinking.  What a great idea he talked about!  I
>>>> think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea.
>>>>
>>>> Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic.  The better
>>>> approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share.
>>>>  Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the
>>>> technical arena).  (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely
>>>> to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the
>>>> difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...)
>>>>
>>>> I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues.  The first was lack of
>>>> mind-share (crowd acceptance).  It is very hard to compete with Windows &
>>>> Linux.  The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional
>>>> browser.
>>>>
>>>> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9
>>>> has no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best
>>>> ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the
>>>> best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and
>>>> availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand
>>>> that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and
>>>> limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction.  Plan-9
>>>> proved those ideas in an ideal environment.  Just like what Smalltalk did
>>>> to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its
>>>> ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing
>>>> technology like Linux.
>>>>
>>>> Just some thoughts.
>>>>
>>>> Blake McBride
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names

[Blake McBride]

Thanks!  That is very helpful.


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Friedrich Psiorz  wrote:

> To run the plumber, type
> plumber &
>
> then you can copy the rules file to $HOME/lib/plumbing and modify it as
> you wish. The next time you start the plumber (or when you write the
> modified file back via 9p), it will load that config file and hopefully
> behave as you planned.
>
> Okay, now what's the plumber? There are two kinds of Buttor-3 actions in
> acme:
> 1) if you use button 3 on things like file names, addresses, etc. it
> does some special action
> 2) otherwise, search text
>
> The plumber (when running) is there to find out, if there is a special
> action to perform, and then do it. Read the paper "Plumbing and other
> utilities" to get more details.
>
> ~Fritz
>
> Am 15.12.2013 17:38, schrieb Blake McBride:
> > I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me the specifics on this.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Blake
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Friedrich Psiorz  > <mailto:f.psi...@gmx.de>> wrote:
> >
> > To use the plumber, you have to start it first. Then you can
> configure
> > all the Button-3 behavior you want. No need to change the hard coded
> > backup behavior.
> >
> > Am 15.12.2013 17:19, schrieb Blake McBride:
> > > Blake-Mac-17:tmp blake$ 9p read plumb/rules
> > > 9p: mount: dial
> unix!/tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb:
> > > connect /tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: No such
> file
> > >
> > > I don't have to do this when I search for text with spaces, or to
> > > execute a command with spaces.  Not being able to load files or
> > > directories with spaces is, and I mean this in the most
> > respectfull way,
> > > short sighted and inconsistent IMO.  As long as a fix doesn't
> > limit some
> > > existing functionality, I think it should be corrected.  I am
> > qualified
> > > to make such a correction but, not being familiar with the code, I
> > > estimate it would take me a whole day to do.  I'd bet it would take
> > > someone famaliar with the code an hour.  My time, like all of
> > yours, is
> > > very limited.  I will make the change when my time permits.  My
> > hope is
> > > that someone more familiar with the code can make it before then.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Blake
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

I, respectfully, disagree.  The end purpose of any OS, platform, or program
is to perform some sort of function.  That end function is called an app.
 An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The underlying
environment (including tools) determines the available facilities a
programmer has in order to construct said app.  Unix brings far, far better
facilities for the programmer than does Window for the construction and
operation of an app.  The new ideas embodied in Plan-9 bring considerable
enhancements to such an environment.

If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the
value of Plan-9?  Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool
ideas with no end or purpose in mind?

Blake



On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence Fábián  wrote:

> If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java,
> I will fight against it till my dying breath.
>
> Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps.
> Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. If
> you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device
> drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks that
> they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this.
>
>
> 2013/12/15 Blake McBride 
>
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol  wrote:
>>
>>> .  The lack of a
>>> web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability
>>> limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
>>> with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
>>> cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless.  Thanks to Russ Cox
>>> for P9P!
>>
>> 
>>>
>>
>> This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make.  I read Rob
>> Pike's comments at:
>>
>> http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/
>>
>> and it really got me thinking.  What a great idea he talked about!  I
>> think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea.
>>
>> Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic.  The better
>> approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share.
>>  Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the
>> technical arena).  (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely
>> to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the
>> difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...)
>>
>> I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues.  The first was lack of
>> mind-share (crowd acceptance).  It is very hard to compete with Windows &
>> Linux.  The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional
>> browser.
>>
>> In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9
>> has no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best
>> ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the
>> best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and
>> availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand
>> that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and
>> limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction.  Plan-9
>> proved those ideas in an ideal environment.  Just like what Smalltalk did
>> to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its
>> ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing
>> technology like Linux.
>>
>> Just some thoughts.
>>
>> Blake McBride
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme

[Blake McBride]

As I am sure you would agree, a lot of real, interesting, important, and
valuable work gets done on POSIX systems.  I'm sure we'd all agree that
Plan-9 adds important ideas to those already present in POSIX.  While some
of the implementation specifics of Plan-9 may be "hard to bold" onto a
POSIX system, I believe most of the ideas, in the abstract, can be added to
a POSIX system, in, perhaps, a different form.

Blake


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Bence Fábián  wrote:

>
> > On a semi-different note, I understand the great advancement Plan-9
> > brings to the table with respect to making all operations part of
> > the file system.  On the flip side, I do not understand the benefit
> > p9p brings to the table with bind and friends.  It is too much of
> > a tack-on IMO.  I deeply appreciate native sam & acme, and would
> > appreciate an even more native port of same.  And, not to dispriage
> > the true benefits of Plan-9, I would love to see a POSIX implementation
> > of those ideas.  (A topic of a future post.)
>
> A topic of loads of past posts. Look up the glendix project. It's really
> hard to
> bolt this stuff on a posix system and I don't really see the point anymore.
> Use Plan 9 for the stuff you need it for and use some POSX system for
> online poker or whatever it is we need modern browsers for.
>
>

[9fans] Ideas from Plan-9

[Blake McBride]

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol  wrote:

> .  The lack of a
> web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability
> limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal
> with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and
> cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless.  Thanks to Russ Cox for
> P9P!


>

This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make.  I read Rob Pike's
comments at:

http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/

and it really got me thinking.  What a great idea he talked about!  I think
this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea.

Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic.  The better
approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share.
 Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the
technical arena).  (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely
to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the
difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...)

I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues.  The first was lack of
mind-share (crowd acceptance).  It is very hard to compete with Windows &
Linux.  The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional
browser.

In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has
no real future.  On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas
Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future.  I think the best,
most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability
is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel.  I understand that, since
Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and limitations, but it
would be a huge step in the right direction.  Plan-9 proved those ideas in
an ideal environment.  Just like what Smalltalk did to the world - creating
C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its ideas to the mainstream
through additions and improvements to existing technology like Linux.

Just some thoughts.

Blake McBride

Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names

[Blake McBride]

I would greatly appreciate it if you could give me the specifics on this.

Thanks!

Blake



On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Friedrich Psiorz  wrote:

> To use the plumber, you have to start it first. Then you can configure
> all the Button-3 behavior you want. No need to change the hard coded
> backup behavior.
>
> Am 15.12.2013 17:19, schrieb Blake McBride:
> > Blake-Mac-17:tmp blake$ 9p read plumb/rules
> > 9p: mount: dial unix!/tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb:
> > connect /tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: No such file
> >
> > I don't have to do this when I search for text with spaces, or to
> > execute a command with spaces.  Not being able to load files or
> > directories with spaces is, and I mean this in the most respectfull way,
> > short sighted and inconsistent IMO.  As long as a fix doesn't limit some
> > existing functionality, I think it should be corrected.  I am qualified
> > to make such a correction but, not being familiar with the code, I
> > estimate it would take me a whole day to do.  I'd bet it would take
> > someone famaliar with the code an hour.  My time, like all of yours, is
> > very limited.  I will make the change when my time permits.  My hope is
> > that someone more familiar with the code can make it before then.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Blake
> >
> >
>

Re: [9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme

[Blake McBride]

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:00 AM, erik quanstrom wrote:

> On Sun Dec 15 10:23:13 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote:
>
> > I checked.  The following shell script does the trick:
> >
> >
> > #
> > mkdir /tmp/acme-$$
> > NAMESPACE=/tmp/acme-$$ acme "$@"
>
> this is swimming up stream.  acme's model is to run 1 copy of acme,
> and edit all files in it.  many things, such as plumbing, will work
> better with 1 copy of acme.
>

I agree completely.  I would, in general, only run one copy because that is
all that would generally be needed.  However, there are a couple
of circumstances where starting more than one copy does make sense.  I
detail those two cases in my first post in this thread.



>
> by the way, this limitation is p9p specific.  but still it's no
> fun to have the same file get plumbed to every acme.
>

As you can tell by all my posts.  All of this is new to me, and I am tring
to understand it all.  I like what I see so far, and, in fact, I have some
ideas that are germinating in my mind.  I am planning a future post about
it.

Focusing on sam & acme, I don't yet understand the plumber except in the
most vague respect.  Specifically what one can do with the plumber on p9p
is unknown to me.

On a semi-different note, I understand the great advancement Plan-9 brings
to the table with respect to making all operations part of the file system.
 On the flip side, I do not understand the benefit p9p brings to the table
with bind and friends.  It is too much of a tack-on IMO.  I deeply
appreciate native sam & acme, and would appreciate an even more native port
of same.  And, not to dispriage the true benefits of Plan-9, I would love
to see a POSIX implementation of those ideas.  (A topic of a future post.)

Thanks.

Blake



>
> - erik
>
>

Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names

[Blake McBride]

Blake-Mac-17:tmp blake$ 9p read plumb/rules
9p: mount: dial unix!/tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb:
connect /tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/plumb: No such file

I don't have to do this when I search for text with spaces, or to execute a
command with spaces.  Not being able to load files or directories with
spaces is, and I mean this in the most respectfull way, short sighted and
inconsistent IMO.  As long as a fix doesn't limit some existing
functionality, I think it should be corrected.  I am qualified to make such
a correction but, not being familiar with the code, I estimate it would
take me a whole day to do.  I'd bet it would take someone famaliar with the
code an hour.  My time, like all of yours, is very limited.  I will make
the change when my time permits.  My hope is that someone more familiar
with the code can make it before then.

Thanks.

Blake



On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Friedrich Psiorz  wrote:

> I think the reason is that filenames with spaces are not very common in
> Plan 9.
> If you're running plumber, you can probably adjust the regular
> exressions for file matching in your $HOME/lib/plumbing file.
>
> If you don't have that file yet:
> 9p read plumb/rules >$HOME/lib/plumbing
>
> ~Fritz
>
> Am 15.12.2013 16:25, schrieb Blake McBride:
> > Discovering button-3-drag, is there a reason button-3-drag could not be
> > made to load a file or directory with spaces in it?  In other words,
> > would this conflict with some other intended operation?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Blake
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Blake McBride  > <mailto:bl...@mcbride.name>> wrote:
> >
> > When you button-2-click on text acme executes the word.  If you want
> > to execute something larger with spaces, you highlight the whole
> > thing and then button-2-click on it to execute the whole thing.
> >
> > When you button-3-click on text in a file list buffer acme loads the
> > file with that name.  I should be able to highlight a file name with
> > spaces and then button-3-click on it to load the file.  This would
> > be totally consistent.
> >
> > It there a reason this hasn't been done?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Blake
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Rubén Berenguel
> > mailto:ru...@mostlymaths.net>> wrote:
> >
> > A kind of crude workaround is using the whole
> > /Users/whatever/file with spaces, selecting it with first button
> > and 1-2 chording it to Get. This works on Mac, problem is that
> > it's quite horrible to do. An intermediate solution may be to
> > use some piping rule like sp:filename with spaces, but I don't
> > remember if piping works with right-button and selected text or
> > follows the same rules as opening a file.
> >
> > Ruben
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Robert Raschke
> > mailto:rtrli...@googlemail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > Someone once made a little filesystem that would substitute
> > spaces in filenames with a different character. When placed
> > between the normal fs and Acme, this would make things work
> > quite nicely.
> >
> > If I remember correctly, Acme-SAC (built on top of Inferno)
> > does that by default.
> >
> > No idea where you can find such a fs for Mac though. But
> > this might give you a start.
> >
> > Robby
> >
> > On Dec 11, 2013 6:19 PM, "Blake McBride"  > <mailto:bl...@mcbride.name>> wrote:
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Just started using acme (and sam).  Cool.
> >
> > I am using acme on a Mac form plan9port.
> >
> > Within a file list one can right-click a listing in
> > order to decend into another directory or load a file.
> >  The problem is that neither work if a space is
> > contained within the name.  Apparently, the right-click
> > functionality only looks at non-white space strings.  An
> > easy fix to this would be to allow the user to highlight
> > the entire string (including spaces) and then
> > right-click as normal.  The system would allow the
> > highlight facility to override the "just test for
> > contigous non-space string" current functionality.
> >
> > Any thoughts on this?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Blake McBride
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names

[Blake McBride]

Discovering button-3-drag, is there a reason button-3-drag could not be
made to load a file or directory with spaces in it?  In other words, would
this conflict with some other intended operation?

Thanks.

Blake



On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:10 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:

> When you button-2-click on text acme executes the word.  If you want to
> execute something larger with spaces, you highlight the whole thing and
> then button-2-click on it to execute the whole thing.
>
> When you button-3-click on text in a file list buffer acme loads the file
> with that name.  I should be able to highlight a file name with spaces and
> then button-3-click on it to load the file.  This would be totally
> consistent.
>
> It there a reason this hasn't been done?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Blake
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Rubén Berenguel 
> wrote:
>
>> A kind of crude workaround is using the whole /Users/whatever/file with
>> spaces, selecting it with first button and 1-2 chording it to Get. This
>> works on Mac, problem is that it's quite horrible to do. An intermediate
>> solution may be to use some piping rule like sp:filename with spaces, but I
>> don't remember if piping works with right-button and selected text or
>> follows the same rules as opening a file.
>>
>> Ruben
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Robert Raschke 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Someone once made a little filesystem that would substitute spaces in
>>> filenames with a different character. When placed between the normal fs and
>>> Acme, this would make things work quite nicely.
>>>
>>> If I remember correctly, Acme-SAC (built on top of Inferno) does that by
>>> default.
>>>
>>> No idea where you can find such a fs for Mac though. But this might give
>>> you a start.
>>>
>>> Robby
>>>  On Dec 11, 2013 6:19 PM, "Blake McBride"  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> Just started using acme (and sam).  Cool.
>>>>
>>>> I am using acme on a Mac form plan9port.
>>>>
>>>> Within a file list one can right-click a listing in order to decend into
>>>> another directory or load a file.  The problem is that neither work if a
>>>> space is contained within the name.  Apparently, the right-click
>>>> functionality only looks at non-white space strings.  An easy fix to this
>>>> would be to allow the user to highlight the entire string (including
>>>> spaces) and then right-click as normal.  The system would allow the
>>>> highlight facility to override the "just test for contigous non-space
>>>> string" current functionality.
>>>>
>>>> Any thoughts on this?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Blake McBride
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme

[Blake McBride]

I checked.  The following shell script does the trick:


#
mkdir /tmp/acme-$$
NAMESPACE=/tmp/acme-$$ acme "$@"




On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:31 AM, User &  wrote:

> you may change $NAMESPACE, cf. intro(4)
>
> % mkdir /tmp/foo; NAMESPACE=/tmp/foo acme
>
>

Re: [9fans] Spell checking with acme in p9p

[Blake McBride]

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:01 AM, Rubén Berenguel wrote:

> 
> By the way, do you know about 1-2 chords, don't you? For some of these
> tasks it may be useful.
>
>
I have only a vague notion of chords at this point.  I have two button mouse.
 I simulate the button-2 with alt-left-click.  Because of this I thought I
might not even be able to do chords.

As you can tell, I am just learning acme.  So far, I have been successful
in making it my main editor.  I initially spent a bunch of time with sam.
 I like it a lot too.  I had a problem with sam trying to deal with
multiple buffers.  I understand the ability to define where they are
displayed but switching between a bunch of buffers was inconvenient.  IMO,
acme is much better at handling multiple windows since you can drag things
around very easily.  Acme's ability to dump/load state is very convenient
too.  One big thing I like about sam is the edit window.  I can deal with a
buffer in sudu-ed commands and see the results.  I like this.

One thing I just noticed about acme which I don't yet understand is the
following.  I just noticed that I can click-drag with the button-2 and
button-3 too.  Didn't realize this before.  Not sure what they do yet.

Another thing that I don't think can be done with acme but I am wondering
is as follows.  When you have a command in a window (Undo for example), the
command affects either the window it is in, or the window it is a tag for.
 Sometimes, like when you issue a command and the result goes to the Errors
window, I would like to be able to execute text in the Errors window that
would affect the window the Error window represents.  This would be very
powerful.  I could highlight text in a window, execute a command on it, and
that command would provide me with a series of commands I can run on the
original window to perform some operation (since the original window and
the Error window are related at that point).  Anyway, please let me know if
this is possible.

Thanks a lot for all the help!!

Blake

[9fans] Spell checking with acme in p9p

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I am trying to get spell checking working with acme on a Mac using p9p.  I
am using the following script:

#
aspell pipe |grep '^&'

When run on a text selection (with >), it returns me with a list of
incorrectly spelled words along with a list of potential corrections.  Each
line represents the misspelled word and its suggested corrections.  Cool,
I've got what I need.

I can modify what it returns through awk to give me the line and character
of the word, and reformat the line to be more meaningful to acme if it
would be helpful.

The problem is that there are a lot of steps to make a correction.  I think
I need to:

1.  snarf the misspelled word from the Errors buffer

2.  Paste the word into the tag line of the file being checked

3.  Right-click on the word in the tag line to find it in the input file

4.  Select the correct spelling from one of the aspell suggestions in the
Errors window and snarf it.

5.  Select the incorrectly spelled word in the input file and paste the
corrected word in its place.

As I said earlier, I may be able to simplify a step or so by reformatting
the result of the spell check with awk, but I'm not sure what would be
helpful yet.

So, I guess the point of this is that there are a lot of steps necessary to
correct a text's spelling.  It would be easier just to do:

aspell check file.txt

But that would be side-stepping acme.  I am just wondering how others
handle this situation.

Thank you!

Blake McBride

Re: [9fans] Acme: single quotes and hyphens

[Blake McBride]

fmt works fine.  Thanks.  BTW, besides 'Edit ,', is there an easier way to
select an entire file (to send to a program)?

Thanks again.


On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Bence Fábián  wrote:

> No problem. Use |fmt to word wrap. nroff does much more.
>
>
> 2013/12/14 Blake McBride 
>
>> Apology.  I started using a shell script I created to perform text wrap
>> in acme by executing the script with |wrap
>> Turns out it is my script (nroff version of groff) that is doing it.
>>  That should be easy to fix.
>>
>> Thanks, and sorry about the confusion.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Bence Fábián  wrote:
>>
>>> It's your keyboard layout. acme does no such thing to my knowledge.
>>> Also it has nothing to do with the font. I assume you use p9p acme
>>> on Mac OS X based on your last letter. So I can't help you more.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/12/14 Blake McBride 
>>>
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> While working with acme I had a problem with spell checking.
>>>>  Investigating, I discovered that my setup of acme is not using normal
>>>> single quotes or hyphens.  Instead of inserting what all other editors
>>>> insert when I hit my single quote or dash keys, acme is inserting some
>>>> other (2 byte?) character.  I understand unicode but I am American-English.
>>>>  My compiler and spell checker expect single byte, standard ASCII codes for
>>>> dash and single quotes.  I absolutely can't use acme like this.
>>>>
>>>> I am using the standard font.  Is there a way for me to correct this
>>>> behavior?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Blake McBride
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [9fans] Acme: single quotes and hyphens

[Blake McBride]

Apology.  I started using a shell script I created to perform text wrap in
acme by executing the script with |wrap
Turns out it is my script (nroff version of groff) that is doing it.  That
should be easy to fix.

Thanks, and sorry about the confusion.


On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Bence Fábián  wrote:

> It's your keyboard layout. acme does no such thing to my knowledge.
> Also it has nothing to do with the font. I assume you use p9p acme
> on Mac OS X based on your last letter. So I can't help you more.
>
>
> 2013/12/14 Blake McBride 
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> While working with acme I had a problem with spell checking.
>>  Investigating, I discovered that my setup of acme is not using normal
>> single quotes or hyphens.  Instead of inserting what all other editors
>> insert when I hit my single quote or dash keys, acme is inserting some
>> other (2 byte?) character.  I understand unicode but I am American-English.
>>  My compiler and spell checker expect single byte, standard ASCII codes for
>> dash and single quotes.  I absolutely can't use acme like this.
>>
>> I am using the standard font.  Is there a way for me to correct this
>> behavior?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Blake McBride
>>
>>
>

[9fans] Acme: single quotes and hyphens

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

While working with acme I had a problem with spell checking.
 Investigating, I discovered that my setup of acme is not using normal
single quotes or hyphens.  Instead of inserting what all other editors
insert when I hit my single quote or dash keys, acme is inserting some
other (2 byte?) character.  I understand unicode but I am American-English.
 My compiler and spell checker expect single byte, standard ASCII codes for
dash and single quotes.  I absolutely can't use acme like this.

I am using the standard font.  Is there a way for me to correct this
behavior?

Thanks.

Blake McBride

[9fans] Can't start multiple copies of acme

[Blake McBride]

Greetings,

I am using p9p on a Mac.

I am able to start any number of copies of sam as expected.  Acme runs well
too, but I can only start a single copy.  If I try to start a second copy I
get:

9pserve: announce unix!/tmp/ns.blake._tmp_launch-nvfpC3_org.x:0/acme:
Address already in use
acme: can't post service: 9pserve failed


I understand that acme can display multiple files and that, perhaps, only
one copy is needed.  I am, however, experiencing two cases where starting
up an additional copy is advantageous, and not being able to start more
than one copy is a problem.

I have been able to create a Mac application out of sam & acme.  With that,
I am able to associate a file extension (txt, etc.) with an application
such that when I click on the file a copy of sam or acme is started up so
the clicked-on file can be edited.  This works perfectly with sam, but only
work for the first file with acme because of not being able to start
multiple copies.

A second issue is I am sometimes editing multiple files in acme.  Someone
calls and I have to make a quick edit to another file.  Rather than mess up
the multi-window setup I have for my current project, I'd rather start up
an additional copy of acme to edit that one file and then go back to my
untouched development environment.  (I know about dump/load.  That is very
useful, and I use it.  But I don't want to go through all those extra steps
in a quick edit situation.)

Thanks.

Blake McBride

Re: [9fans] Acme: spaces in file names

[Blake McBride]

When you button-2-click on text acme executes the word.  If you want to
execute something larger with spaces, you highlight the whole thing and
then button-2-click on it to execute the whole thing.

When you button-3-click on text in a file list buffer acme loads the file
with that name.  I should be able to highlight a file name with spaces and
then button-3-click on it to load the file.  This would be totally
consistent.

It there a reason this hasn't been done?

Thanks.

Blake



On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:00 AM, Rubén Berenguel wrote:

> A kind of crude workaround is using the whole /Users/whatever/file with
> spaces, selecting it with first button and 1-2 chording it to Get. This
> works on Mac, problem is that it's quite horrible to do. An intermediate
> solution may be to use some piping rule like sp:filename with spaces, but I
> don't remember if piping works with right-button and selected text or
> follows the same rules as opening a file.
>
> Ruben
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Robert Raschke 
> wrote:
>
>> Someone once made a little filesystem that would substitute spaces in
>> filenames with a different character. When placed between the normal fs and
>> Acme, this would make things work quite nicely.
>>
>> If I remember correctly, Acme-SAC (built on top of Inferno) does that by
>> default.
>>
>> No idea where you can find such a fs for Mac though. But this might give
>> you a start.
>>
>> Robby
>>  On Dec 11, 2013 6:19 PM, "Blake McBride"  wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> Just started using acme (and sam).  Cool.
>>>
>>> I am using acme on a Mac form plan9port.
>>>
>>> Within a file list one can right-click a listing in order to decend into
>>> another directory or load a file.  The problem is that neither work if a
>>> space is contained within the name.  Apparently, the right-click
>>> functionality only looks at non-white space strings.  An easy fix to this
>>> would be to allow the user to highlight the entire string (including
>>> spaces) and then right-click as normal.  The system would allow the
>>> highlight facility to override the "just test for contigous non-space
>>> string" current functionality.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts on this?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Blake McBride
>>>
>>>
>

Re: [9fans] Acme: fonts

[Blake McBride]

Figured it out.

export font=/mnt/font/Courier/12a/font
sam &



On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:

> Interesting.  On the bottom it says fontsrv has no support for X11.  Is
> there a way to use the fonts that come with Linux?
>
> Another question.  Is there a way to use a specific font with sam?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Blake
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
>
>>
>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:
>>
>> > How can I access the font from acme?
>>
>> See the EXAMPLES section of the fontsrv(1) manpage.
>>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Acme: fonts

[Blake McBride]

Interesting.  On the bottom it says fontsrv has no support for X11.  Is
there a way to use the fonts that come with Linux?

Another question.  Is there a way to use a specific font with sam?

Thanks!

Blake



On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg  wrote:

>
> On Dec 11, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:
>
> > How can I access the font from acme?
>
> See the EXAMPLES section of the fontsrv(1) manpage.
>

Re: [9fans] Acme: fonts

[Blake McBride]

Sorry again.  Re-read first post.  I forgot the "12a/font" part since it
wasn't displayed in the ls.  Now it works as I had hoped.  This totally
answers my question.

Thank you all!

Blake



On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:

> I see.  Sorry.  I tried two different ones and I got:
>
> can't open font file /mnt/font/Courier: bad height or ascent in font file
> can't open font file /mnt/font/Menlo-Regular: bad height or ascent in
> font file
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:14 PM, andrey mirtchovski  > wrote:
>
>> see the first reply in this thread
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, December 11, 2013, Blake McBride wrote:
>>
>>>  Okay.  I build and installed fontsrv.  I have it running.  Now when I
>>> do:
>>>
>>> 9p ls font
>>>
>>> it lists all the fonts on my system.  One of them is "Courier".  From
>>> acme, I tried:
>>>
>>> Font Courier
>>>
>>> But that doesn't work.  It tells me:
>>>
>>> can't open font file Courier: No such file or directory
>>>
>>> It seems fontsrv is working or the 9p ls font wouldn't work.  How can I
>>> access the font from acme?
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Blake
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Blake McBride wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Aram Hăvărneanu  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Blake McBride 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> > I'm sure I can get it to compile but I don't see the point.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is that fontsrv allows p9p programs (including acme) to use
>>>>> whatever true-type font you already have on the system.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Now that is valuable information!!  Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Blake
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>

Re: [9fans] Acme: fonts

[Blake McBride]

I see.  Sorry.  I tried two different ones and I got:

can't open font file /mnt/font/Courier: bad height or ascent in font file
can't open font file /mnt/font/Menlo-Regular: bad height or ascent in font
file




On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:14 PM, andrey mirtchovski
wrote:

> see the first reply in this thread
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 11, 2013, Blake McBride wrote:
>
>> Okay.  I build and installed fontsrv.  I have it running.  Now when I
>> do:
>>
>> 9p ls font
>>
>> it lists all the fonts on my system.  One of them is "Courier".  From
>> acme, I tried:
>>
>> Font Courier
>>
>> But that doesn't work.  It tells me:
>>
>> can't open font file Courier: No such file or directory
>>
>> It seems fontsrv is working or the 9p ls font wouldn't work.  How can I
>> access the font from acme?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Blake
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Blake McBride wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Aram Hăvărneanu  wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Blake McBride 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> > I'm sure I can get it to compile but I don't see the point.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that fontsrv allows p9p programs (including acme) to use
>>>> whatever true-type font you already have on the system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Now that is valuable information!!  Thanks!
>>>
>>> Blake
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [9fans] Acme: fonts

[Blake McBride]

Okay.  I build and installed fontsrv.  I have it running.  Now when I do:

9p ls font

it lists all the fonts on my system.  One of them is "Courier".  From acme,
I tried:

Font Courier

But that doesn't work.  It tells me:

can't open font file Courier: No such file or directory

It seems fontsrv is working or the 9p ls font wouldn't work.  How can I
access the font from acme?

Thanks.

Blake



On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:

>
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Aram Hăvărneanu  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Blake McBride 
>> wrote:
>> > I'm sure I can get it to compile but I don't see the point.
>>
>> The point is that fontsrv allows p9p programs (including acme) to use
>> whatever true-type font you already have on the system.
>>
>>
> Now that is valuable information!!  Thanks!
>
> Blake
>
>
>

Re: [9fans] Acme: fonts

[Blake McBride]

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:15 PM, Aram Hăvărneanu  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:
> > I'm sure I can get it to compile but I don't see the point.
>
> The point is that fontsrv allows p9p programs (including acme) to use
> whatever true-type font you already have on the system.
>
>
Now that is valuable information!!  Thanks!

Blake

Re: [9fans] Acme: fonts

[Blake McBride]

Your font does look better than what I have (but not perfect).
 Monaco didn't come with 9p9.  Where did you get that?

I am changing font via the Acme Font command on the tag line; i.e.

 Font /usr/local/plan9port/font/fixed/unicode.9x15B.font

It is changing the font.  The change is obvious.

Since most Mac (or Linux) apps have fonts that appear smoothly, fonts
without significant compression exist.  How can I get "uncompressed" / much
higher resolution fonts for acme?

Thanks.

Blake



On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Rubén Berenguel wrote:

> Check here:
>
> https://vimeo.com/64487176
>
> The slight pixelation comes from the video compression. The font is
> Monaco, on my old Macbook
>
> How are you exactly changing fonts, though?
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Blake McBride  wrote:
>
>> I checked.  fontsrv didn't compile.  I'm sure I can get it to compile
>> but I don't see the point.  Acme comes up, I can change fonts, etc..  What
>> will fontsrv buy me?
>>
>> Incidentally, when I look on the net at picture or videos of acme, the
>> fonts they show on all of those are pixilated too.  See:
>>
>> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Acme.png
>> http://research.swtch.com/acme
>>
>> Those look like mine.  Obviously it is highly usable, but the fonts shown
>> are pixilated and not smooth like fonts that come with the Mac, Linux, etc.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Rubén Berenguel 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> When I installed p9ports in my new Macbook Air (around 4 months ago),
>>> fontsrv didn't compile "out of the box," I had to compile it separately.
>>> For me all available fonts read perfectly well and sharp (Mac OS X 10.9 on
>>> Air 13" and Mac OS X 10.6.8 on Macbook 13")
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Ruben
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:26 PM,  wrote:
>>>
>>>> > still a bit pixilated
>>>>
>>>> 1 bit fonts are legible. this is a feature.
>>>>
>>>> sl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>