Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26 [IAccessible2 support in JAWS]
Hi Christophe, On 07/06/2022 12.14, Christophe Strobbe wrote: After some online searching, it seems that JAWS at least used to support IAccessible2, originally mainly for IBM Lotus Symphony. According to a tweet by Marco Zehe from December last year, JAWS handles Chromium and Edge via IAccessible2. (See https://twitter.com/MarcoInEnglish/status/1471523578805997570 ) That sounds promising, JAWS was what I vaguely had in mind about having been mentioned of presumably not supporting IAccessible2 (well) in the past. Twitter is not an ideal source, but I couldn't find any documentation related to IAccessible2 on Freedom Scientific's website. They do have documentation on to use script access to UIAutomation: https://support.freedomscientific.com/support/jawsdocumentation/UIAScriptAPI but nothing similar for IAccessible2. This calls for some LibreOffice testing with JAWS; I hope to do some of that next weekend. Thanks a lot, that's much appreciated! Best regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26 [IAccessible2 support in JAWS]
Hi Michael, All, (Apologies if this message has too many addressees; I'm not sure which ones I should drop.) After some online searching, it seems that JAWS at least used to support IAccessible2, originally mainly for IBM Lotus Symphony. According to a tweet by Marco Zehe from December last year, JAWS handles Chromium and Edge via IAccessible2. (See https://twitter.com/MarcoInEnglish/status/1471523578805997570 ) Twitter is not an ideal source, but I couldn't find any documentation related to IAccessible2 on Freedom Scientific's website. They do have documentation on to use script access to UIAutomation: https://support.freedomscientific.com/support/jawsdocumentation/UIAScriptAPI but nothing similar for IAccessible2. This calls for some LibreOffice testing with JAWS; I hope to do some of that next weekend. Best regards, Christophe Strobbe > On 07 June 2022 at 11:25 Michael Weghorn wrote: > >(...) > > One other aspect that came to my mind: > > For Windows, we currently support IAccessible2, but not UIA. > That's fine for NVDA, but I have heard/read at times that other screen > readers/AT rely more on UIA. (But I haven't done any further research so > far.) > Does anybody know more about this and whether it would actually be > necessary to implement native UIA support in LO for those AT to properly > interact with LO? > (Or is it more about having proper plugins/app modules/scripts for LO > for the single AT, since e.g. NVDA and JAWS appear to rely heavily on > those to properly support specific apps?) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 07/06/2022 11.54, Michael Weghorn wrote: Could you please explain what the expected (and actual) behavior would be when showing an Impress presentation? I think it makes sense to create a bug report to keep track of this (and I'd be happy to do so, but don't know what to write). (In a quick test with MS Powerpoint and NVDA in a dual screen setup, NVDA just announced "Slide show complete" when I pressed F5 to start presentation mode and the first of three slides was shown... NVDA didn't announce anything when I was moving around using the tab key, so a quick look at that competing product didn't help me to figure out how it *should* behave...) I tried again with just a single screen instead of two, and then NVDA announces "Slide 1", then reads out the slide content, and when moving further: "Slide 2" and its content, etc. Is that what you think Impress should do as well? (It didn't in a quick test with gtk3 on Linux.) (Given the above, it looks to me at first sight as if MS Office was more or less behaving the opposite way of what you described for Impress, and is only accessible when presenter console is *not* enabled? Not having much experience, I might just be using it incorrectly, though...) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 31/05/2022 22.13, Jason White wrote: On 31/5/22 14:11, David P Á wrote: Other problem with accessibility is comments and tracked changes on Writer. The issues with these systems make using Writer problematic in professional settings. I agree, and in particular, the screen reader/accessibility API support isn't implemented - at least for Linux. Thanks, Colomban also mentioned comments and tracked changes, and they are on the wiki page of topics that need some attention [1]: "Some relations are missing, like for annotations and footnotes (s. e.g. tdf#96481). Also, there is a lack of semantics for change tracking leading to messy output from ATs (s. e.g. tdf#96487). These could be seen as smaller and simpler issues." A further screen reader issue is that, at least when I last checked, running a presentation in Impress was not accessible, unless Presenter Console were used. However, I couldn't test Presenter Console, as I didn't have multiple monitors (I was using a laptop with its in-built display). Could you please explain what the expected (and actual) behavior would be when showing an Impress presentation? I think it makes sense to create a bug report to keep track of this (and I'd be happy to do so, but don't know what to write). (In a quick test with MS Powerpoint and NVDA in a dual screen setup, NVDA just announced "Slide show complete" when I pressed F5 to start presentation mode and the first of three slides was shown... NVDA didn't announce anything when I was moving around using the tab key, so a quick look at that competing product didn't help me to figure out how it *should* behave...) [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Under-loved_areas#Document_Level_Accessibility -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 31/05/2022 14.20, Jason White wrote: It seems to be very much a matter of unaddressed bugs and regressions. The Document Foundation advertised a contract (presumably fulfilled by now) to rewrite the accessibility regression testing infrastructure in C++. FWIW, that conversion to C++ is currently still being worked on. That's an important step, but once the testing is in place, someone is going to have to find and start fixing the bugs - then maintain the quality of the implementation over time. Maintaining quality and avoiding regressions is where many accessibility efforts fall apart, whether in the free software world or in the products of large and well resourced corporations. There is also a tendency to implement solutions only partially, but not with good enough quality to satisfy the needs of the users. Being a large corporation with vast financial reasources doesn't necessarily resolve these difficulties. On the other hand, well organized and resourced free software projects can be remarkably successful in this area. +1 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 31/05/2022 16.24, Christophe Strobbe wrote: I don't have a comprehensive overview of LibreOffice UI accessibility either, unfortunately. However, if you are looking for ways to prioritise issues, one way may be based on the accessibility requirements in the ETSI standard EN 301 549, which defines the requirements that software, documents and a number of other IT products will need to fulfil in the EU starting June 2025. If you want the biggest bang for your buck, my recommendations are the following: (1) With regard to the UI, focus on Windows-based accessibility issues first, since that is where (a) the majority of people with disabilities are and (b) the version that is most likely to get audited if accessibility audits get done. (As a Linux user, I would also like GTK-related to get fixed, but I am not representative of the market.) With regard to applications, I would focus on Writer before Impress or Calc. (I don't know how often Base and Draw are used in professional contexts, if at all.) Thanks, Christophe, that's really helpful. I generally agree with the priorities. (FWIW, looking at, comparing and working a bit on the a11y implementations of all of Windows/gtk3/qt has proven to be very useful to me to get a deeper overall understanding, though.) One other aspect that came to my mind: For Windows, we currently support IAccessible2, but not UIA. That's fine for NVDA, but I have heard/read at times that other screen readers/AT rely more on UIA. (But I haven't done any further research so far.) Does anybody know more about this and whether it would actually be necessary to implement native UIA support in LO for those AT to properly interact with LO? (Or is it more about having proper plugins/app modules/scripts for LO for the single AT, since e.g. NVDA and JAWS appear to rely heavily on those to properly support specific apps?) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 31/05/2022 12.36, Caolán McNamara wrote:
If the overview is there are a thousand little things and not a small
set of large scale specific projects then that's still a useful
overview. We could still sweep them into some general themes.
Indeed. Thanks for adding the subtopics that came up during the
discussion on the wiki page.
(I have also *heard* that Base seems to be most problematic in
general, but haven't had much to do with it myself yet.)
I wonder if it's the initial base screen (I think I might have replaced
some custom widgets there with more standard ones which might have
improved matters) or the "design view" rows/columns screen which is a
custom widget, but one I think that does at least have an a11y
implementation. In general custom widgets lead to forgotten a11y, like
the extensions dialog.
How about math? I see a bug 140659 for math still open linked to the
meta bug, which says "formula editor not operable with screenreaders",
but then the commentary seems maybe less bleak
Does anyone (affected users?) have any further insights/experiences with
either Base or Math and could say where the main a11y problems are or
whether it's mostly working fine by now?
(For Math, might makes sense to retest that after a11y has been restored
for the elements panel after d79c527c2a599c7821d27cf03b95cb79e2abe685
("Use IconView in SmElementsControl"), which mentions that as a TODO in
the commit message and Mike already has a WIP change for that.)
Depends of what is being read out of course, missing labels for .ui
widgetry are super trivial to fix[1]. Something not read out from a
document can range from some small missing piece to some difficult
total lack of a11y.
Indeed, and I've seen various root causes when looking at different
issues, so it's really hard to say where the problems are without taking
a closer look into the single issues.
The a11y meta bug tdf#101912 [1] currently lists ~200 specific
issues. (I also have a ranked list from Richard, CCed, a blind user
who uses the NVDA screen reader on Windows.)
If Richard is ok with sharing that here it could help get a general
feel on what's lacking.
Read-only link to Richard's ranked list:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2m5cr0m8gzz027n/NvdaAndLoAccessibilityBugSummary.xlsx?dl=0
(no need to sign in, just click the "Download" button on the top left,
and switch to the "Summary" table to see the actual list)
Since the main focus is using LO with NVDA on Windows, the basis for the
list were:
1) all LO Bugzilla issues set as directly blocking one of tdf#60251
(Windows a11y meta bug), tdf#101912 (general a11y meta bug) or
tdf#103440 (sidebar a11y meta bug):
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?f1=blocked&list_id=1464413&o1=anywordssubstr&query_format=advanced&resolution=---&v1=60251%20101912%20103440
i.e. e.g. Linux- or macOS-specific issues or PDF a11y bugs are not
covered, since those have their own meta bugs underneath tdf#101912.
2) a list of issues related to LO/AOO from the NVDA issue tracker on Github
Since various issues have been reported for both, LO and NVDA, Richard
also matched the corresponding bug reports with each other (entries that
have both a "LO Bug ID" and an "NVDA Bug ID").
The underlying data from the two issue trackers is mostly from one year
ago, so newer issues don't show up unless they were blocking work on
existing ones.
(If of any practical value for upcoming steps, the list could be updated
or turned into a different form as needed.)
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[libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 31/05/2022 12.01, Colomban Wendling wrote:
* Only on-screen elements of the document are exposed to ATs. This is
on purpose probably for performance (not sure if we have any numbers to
base it on?) so elements are lazy-loaded and destroyed, but it has
non-trivial impact on various AT features. There are some things
supposed to help mitigate the issues (like flows-from and flows-to
relationships), but they present their own sets of issues (like some
elements from there not having proper parent/child relationships, etc.).
tdf#35652 [1] ("ACC: AT-SPI accessible tree omits objects which are not
visible on the screen.") sounds like a related bug report here.
* Some relations are missing, like for annotations and footnotes.
There's e.g. tdf#96481 ("Connect annotations to the paragraphs they
describe").
Also there is a lack of semantics for change tracking leading to messy output
from ATs.
There's e.g. tdf#96487 ("Expose tracked changes to ATs via accessible
objects and attributes").
I have added links to those tickets to the wiki page [2] as well.
[1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35652
[2]
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Under-loved_areas#Document_Level_Accessibility
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