Re: misc advocacy ideas
allan juul wrote: Quoting Stas Bekman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Most of the things in the docs, at least mod_perl 1.0 guide are FAQ. It was originally written based on frequently asked questions on the list. yes, i understand that now. in a nutshell i see a FAQ as a short full stop page where one can quickly view commonly asked questions. let's take perl itself as an example. sometimes i forget how to do a directly search & replace in a file (in old perls you had to create tmp files and unlink them afterwards). this is not something i do very often so i tend to forget the syntax. but i also know that this would be a pretty common thing for people to do hence i look first in the perl FAQ. the infamous "Sometimes it Works, Sometimes it Doesn't" problem. i personally consider it a FAQ. if you were a mod_perl beginner but knew about this problem already (but couldn't remember how to solve it) how would you go about ? i see three approaches 1) look on perl.apache.org (how to find this answer is not that easy or is it ? what would you search for - how would you hyperlinnk-navigate ?) 2) ask the question on the mailing list 3) search elsewhere like google.com. horror! Right, I've posted a link to http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/frequent.html in the other post. Allan, may I suggest that may be you don't realize how much information there is in our docs and how hard it's going to be to decide what should be in the FAQ and what not? i certainly know there's a lot of information. i even think you know i know :) I do :) would you go along if i (if i can fine the time) took the task of simply compiling a small list a bit like the one i sent as an example in an earlier mail, the faq answers would then point to the real doc ? sure, but in pod of course :) and I'd suggest to start with mp1 specific ones, since mp2 docs aren't there yet. If you really want to help with docs, the best thing you can do now is start porting mod_perl 1 docs to mod_perl 2 docs, since that's the biggest hole now. mod_perl 1 is going to phase out, and 99.9% of the questions in the next year are going to be about mp2. We can't write a FAQ for that since things are still not there. But filling the gaps in the normal docs is what's the most important thing at the moment, if you ask me. i don't think a FAQ should be mod_perl2 og mod_perl1 specific. but i agree that getting the actual documentation right is much more important than a FAQ. but unfortuantely , im not in a position to help on that No problem. -- __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH --> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
Quoting Stas Bekman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Most of the things in the docs, at least mod_perl 1.0 guide are FAQ. It > was originally written based on frequently asked questions on the list. yes, i understand that now. in a nutshell i see a FAQ as a short full stop page where one can quickly view commonly asked questions. let's take perl itself as an example. sometimes i forget how to do a directly search & replace in a file (in old perls you had to create tmp files and unlink them afterwards). this is not something i do very often so i tend to forget the syntax. but i also know that this would be a pretty common thing for people to do hence i look first in the perl FAQ. the infamous "Sometimes it Works, Sometimes it Doesn't" problem. i personally consider it a FAQ. if you were a mod_perl beginner but knew about this problem already (but couldn't remember how to solve it) how would you go about ? i see three approaches 1) look on perl.apache.org (how to find this answer is not that easy or is it ? what would you search for - how would you hyperlinnk-navigate ?) 2) ask the question on the mailing list 3) search elsewhere like google.com. horror! > Allan, may I suggest that may be you don't realize how much information > there is in our docs and how hard it's going to be to decide what should > be in the FAQ and what not? i certainly know there's a lot of information. i even think you know i know :) would you go along if i (if i can fine the time) took the task of simply compiling a small list a bit like the one i sent as an example in an earlier mail, the faq answers would then point to the real doc ? > If you really want to help with docs, the best thing you can do now is > start porting mod_perl 1 docs to mod_perl 2 docs, since that's the biggest > hole now. mod_perl 1 is going to phase out, and 99.9% of the questions in > the next year are going to be about mp2. We can't write a FAQ for that > since things are still not there. But filling the gaps in the normal docs > is what's the most important thing at the moment, if you ask me. i don't think a FAQ should be mod_perl2 og mod_perl1 specific. but i agree that getting the actual documentation right is much more important than a FAQ. but unfortuantely , im not in a position to help on that ./allan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
allan juul wrote: Quoting Stas Bekman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: the FAQ should then reply in two sentences or less: "the reason for that behaviour is this blah blah ... click here to read more URL/TO/GUIDE" -1, it's already hard to maintain the vast amount of information. Trying to keep in sync yet another layer of indirection is an overkill. Instead an effort should be put at improving the existing information. And the search engine should be useful at finding it. i can see it's another layer but it is perhaps also fewer mails in your inbox :) isn't it very normal for the people who ask questions to go to a FAQ just before they send their question ? Most of the things in the docs, at least mod_perl 1.0 guide are FAQ. It was originally written based on frequently asked questions on the list. about searching. i also like the FAQ to be in the downloadble pdf - there's no quality search engine in my pdf reader. im sitting in the train having printed the whole documentaion and ask myself "does apache require a restart if i'm doing a change in this bit of code". If you agree that the docs are already a FAQ, you have the pdf version of all docs. also the very fact that you bring up the "search" step, cries for FAQ. a user have to type a searchword, enter submit, and read through 70 Results for [cache] for example. Allan, may I suggest that may be you don't realize how much information there is in our docs and how hard it's going to be to decide what should be in the FAQ and what not? If you really want to help with docs, the best thing you can do now is start porting mod_perl 1 docs to mod_perl 2 docs, since that's the biggest hole now. mod_perl 1 is going to phase out, and 99.9% of the questions in the next year are going to be about mp2. We can't write a FAQ for that since things are still not there. But filling the gaps in the normal docs is what's the most important thing at the moment, if you ask me. -- __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH --> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
Quoting Stas Bekman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > the FAQ should then reply in two sentences or less: "the reason for that > > behaviour is this blah blah ... click here to read more URL/TO/GUIDE" > > -1, it's already hard to maintain the vast amount of information. Trying > to keep in sync yet another layer of indirection is an overkill. Instead > an effort should be put at improving the existing information. And the > search engine should be useful at finding it. i can see it's another layer but it is perhaps also fewer mails in your inbox :) isn't it very normal for the people who ask questions to go to a FAQ just before they send their question ? about searching. i also like the FAQ to be in the downloadble pdf - there's no quality search engine in my pdf reader. im sitting in the train having printed the whole documentaion and ask myself "does apache require a restart if i'm doing a change in this bit of code". also the very fact that you bring up the "search" step, cries for FAQ. a user have to type a searchword, enter submit, and read through 70 Results for [cache] for example. ./a - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
> "Stas" == Stas Bekman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Stas> [another split, let's keep PR-how thread focused on one thing] Of course, there can be no advocacy *for* MP2 until this Apache::Resource thing is resolved. And I mean in a way that everyone else resolves it in the CPAN. You don't get special favors in the mod_perl group. In fact, I'll argue *against* MP2 in any public forum until this resolved. Seriously. Get this fixed, before I can recommend this to others. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
allan juul wrote: Perrin Harkins wrote: On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 16:35 -0500, Stas Bekman wrote: > * faq > > this is such a web thing for both developers and project managers and > directors. couldn't we write a perl program that scans the total mail on > the mailing list extract the 50 most used words. seriously, it would be > great to have someone to write a faq - someone with the time to do it. The documentation that exists now mostly started as a FAQ that Stas kept adding to. I'm not sure it's possible to address all of mod_perl in a FAQ format. It would either be redundant, or just a set of links to the other docs. Maybe I'm just too close to the material though. If someone else has an idea for how to do a useful FAQ, show us. ok, i didn't know the mod_perl doc history. i guess a faq always is redundant (perhaps it even _should_ be). perl itself has one of course [1] oh, and apache too [2] what i had in mind was a very very quick faq of perhaps 10 questions, perhaps only 5 or 2. the important thing is that it is concise and only updated when really needed (ie when people post the same question over and over again - which btw is also a sort of redundancy ;) ) so let us just start with questions that _really_ are mod_perl faq's. here's one that spring to mind But we have exactly that already: http://perl.apache.org/start/index.html 1) when i start my browser and go to [URL] the very first time i get one result but subsequent refreshes output different results. why is that ? [1] http://perl.com/pub/q/FAQs [2] http://httpd.apache.org/docs/misc/FAQ.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH --> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
allan juul wrote: Perrin Harkins wrote: On Tue, 2004-12-14 at 00:08 +0100, allan juul wrote: here's one that spring to mind 1) when i start my browser and go to [URL] the very first time i get one result but subsequent refreshes output different results. why is that ? http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/porting.html#Sometimes_it_Works__Sometimes_it_Doesn_t But maybe it is useful to have a brief collection of questions, even if the answers are just URLs like this. yes i think so. but i also know that i'm at a completly different mod_perl stage than yourself. but i think a FAQ wil help both a beginner and a list-replier and a even doc writer. i'm just guessing that people like yourself and stas who answers a lot of questions sometimes would like to make this reply instead of poing to an URL in the documentation: Not really. I prefer to find an exact URL myself and point users to it. pointing to a FAQ doesn't ensure that they will find the right section. - have you read the FAQ? or - thats a FAQ :URL/TO/FAQ the FAQ should then reply in two sentences or less: "the reason for that behaviour is this blah blah ... click here to read more URL/TO/GUIDE" -1, it's already hard to maintain the vast amount of information. Trying to keep in sync yet another layer of indirection is an overkill. Instead an effort should be put at improving the existing information. And the search engine should be useful at finding it. -- __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH --> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
Perrin Harkins wrote: On Tue, 2004-12-14 at 00:08 +0100, allan juul wrote: here's one that spring to mind 1) when i start my browser and go to [URL] the very first time i get one result but subsequent refreshes output different results. why is that ? http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/porting.html#Sometimes_it_Works__Sometimes_it_Doesn_t But maybe it is useful to have a brief collection of questions, even if the answers are just URLs like this. yes i think so. but i also know that i'm at a completly different mod_perl stage than yourself. but i think a FAQ wil help both a beginner and a list-replier and a even doc writer. i'm just guessing that people like yourself and stas who answers a lot of questions sometimes would like to make this reply instead of poing to an URL in the documentation: - have you read the FAQ? or - thats a FAQ :URL/TO/FAQ the FAQ should then reply in two sentences or less: "the reason for that behaviour is this blah blah ... click here to read more URL/TO/GUIDE" good night ;) ./allan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
Stas Bekman wrote: > Jayce^ wrote: > >> On Monday 13 December 2004 03:59 pm, Stas Bekman wrote: >> >>> Jayce^++, should we better do it on the users list, so others can >>> benefit >>> from the discussion? so we kill two birds in one shot. of course it may >>> generate some extra noise. So it's up to you Jayce^ to decide whether >>> you >>> want to sum more or less :) >> >> >> >> I'm willing to do either, I just thought this channel might be better >> since it really is an advocacy issue. > > > But at the same time, many users on the modperl list wonder why should > they move to mp2. That's why I thought to run it there. It'll also give > you a chance to here why it's not a good idea to move to mp2, which is > just as important for PR. > > > hi again, i still think it's important that the why/why not "bullet list(s)" should be relatively short. there are probably more than 5 good reasons to choose either to upgrade or not, but if we need 15+ points/bullets to explain to a "non-converted" why he/she should upgrade i personally think the "non-converted" will loose interest. if we think this list as a list on perl.apache.org i imagine something in the vein of this would be cool [just a quick thought though]: HEADER: here are 5 major reasons why you should upgrade to mod_perl2 * reason1 * reason2 * reason3 * reason4 * reason5 TEXT: and click here to view 50 reasons more why you should upgrade TEXT: and click here to view 500 reasons more why you should be using mod_perl in the first place at all HEADER: Scared of upgrading ? TEXT: 5 major reasons why you shouldn't upgrade ./allan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
Perrin Harkins wrote: On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 16:35 -0500, Stas Bekman wrote: > * faq > > this is such a web thing for both developers and project managers and > directors. couldn't we write a perl program that scans the total mail on > the mailing list extract the 50 most used words. seriously, it would be > great to have someone to write a faq - someone with the time to do it. The documentation that exists now mostly started as a FAQ that Stas kept adding to. I'm not sure it's possible to address all of mod_perl in a FAQ format. It would either be redundant, or just a set of links to the other docs. Maybe I'm just too close to the material though. If someone else has an idea for how to do a useful FAQ, show us. ok, i didn't know the mod_perl doc history. i guess a faq always is redundant (perhaps it even _should_ be). perl itself has one of course [1] oh, and apache too [2] what i had in mind was a very very quick faq of perhaps 10 questions, perhaps only 5 or 2. the important thing is that it is concise and only updated when really needed (ie when people post the same question over and over again - which btw is also a sort of redundancy ;) ) so let us just start with questions that _really_ are mod_perl faq's. here's one that spring to mind 1) when i start my browser and go to [URL] the very first time i get one result but subsequent refreshes output different results. why is that ? [1] http://perl.com/pub/q/FAQs [2] http://httpd.apache.org/docs/misc/FAQ.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
Perrin Harkins wrote: On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 15:44 -0700, Jayce^ wrote: If we can bring out the points here in a discussion, I'd be willing to compile/format them nicely. How about just collecting the slides that Stas, Phillipe, and Geoff have used when introducing mp2 at conferences, and trying to summarize the juiciest bits from them? That's probably the best candidate, since it was already a tight summary (though it's out of date - 1.5 years old) http://stason.org/talks/perlcon2003/presentation/mod_perl-2.0-presentation-slides.pdf.gz -- __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH --> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
On Tue, 2004-12-14 at 00:08 +0100, allan juul wrote: > here's one that spring to mind > > 1) when i start my browser and go to [URL] the very first time i get one > result but subsequent refreshes output different results. why is that ? http://perl.apache.org/docs/1.0/guide/porting.html#Sometimes_it_Works__Sometimes_it_Doesn_t But maybe it is useful to have a brief collection of questions, even if the answers are just URLs like this. - Perrin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
On Monday 13 December 2004 04:07 pm, Stas Bekman wrote: > But at the same time, many users on the modperl list wonder why should > they move to mp2. That's why I thought to run it there. It'll also give > you a chance to here why it's not a good idea to move to mp2, which is > just as important for PR. Allright, good enough argument for me, I'll start a thread in there. -- Jayce^ pgpjTOeoWk360.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: misc advocacy ideas
On Monday 13 December 2004 03:30 pm, Stas Bekman wrote: > I guess there is more than 5, but it's a good idea. Any takers? If we can bring out the points here in a discussion, I'd be willing to compile/format them nicely. If we could just all chip in the things we each see as most important, and would like to focus on. -- Jayce^ pgpkyVKCeXCOB.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: misc advocacy ideas
On Monday 13 December 2004 03:59 pm, Stas Bekman wrote: > Jayce^++, should we better do it on the users list, so others can benefit > from the discussion? so we kill two birds in one shot. of course it may > generate some extra noise. So it's up to you Jayce^ to decide whether you > want to sum more or less :) I'm willing to do either, I just thought this channel might be better since it really is an advocacy issue. -- Jayce^ pgpclvxThegRn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: misc advocacy ideas
Jayce^ wrote: On Monday 13 December 2004 03:59 pm, Stas Bekman wrote: Jayce^++, should we better do it on the users list, so others can benefit from the discussion? so we kill two birds in one shot. of course it may generate some extra noise. So it's up to you Jayce^ to decide whether you want to sum more or less :) I'm willing to do either, I just thought this channel might be better since it really is an advocacy issue. But at the same time, many users on the modperl list wonder why should they move to mp2. That's why I thought to run it there. It'll also give you a chance to here why it's not a good idea to move to mp2, which is just as important for PR. -- __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH --> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
Jayce^ wrote: On Monday 13 December 2004 03:30 pm, Stas Bekman wrote: I guess there is more than 5, but it's a good idea. Any takers? If we can bring out the points here in a discussion, I'd be willing to compile/format them nicely. If we could just all chip in the things we each see as most important, and would like to focus on. Jayce^++, should we better do it on the users list, so others can benefit from the discussion? so we kill two birds in one shot. of course it may generate some extra noise. So it's up to you Jayce^ to decide whether you want to sum more or less :) -- __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH --> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 15:44 -0700, Jayce^ wrote: > If we can bring out the points here in a discussion, I'd be willing to > compile/format them nicely. How about just collecting the slides that Stas, Phillipe, and Geoff have used when introducing mp2 at conferences, and trying to summarize the juiciest bits from them? - Perrin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
On Mon, 2004-12-13 at 16:35 -0500, Stas Bekman wrote: > > * faq > > > > this is such a web thing for both developers and project managers and > > directors. couldn't we write a perl program that scans the total mail on > > the mailing list extract the 50 most used words. seriously, it would be > > great to have someone to write a faq - someone with the time to do it. The documentation that exists now mostly started as a FAQ that Stas kept adding to. I'm not sure it's possible to address all of mod_perl in a FAQ format. It would either be redundant, or just a set of links to the other docs. Maybe I'm just too close to the material though. If someone else has an idea for how to do a useful FAQ, show us. Regarding the idea of a "why upgrade" doc, it might be good to polish up one of the mp2 presentations that Stas, Geoff, or Phillipe have done and see if perl.com will run it on the day of the final release. - Perrin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: misc advocacy ideas
Stas Bekman wrote: [another split, let's keep PR-how thread focused on one thing] answering only to some ideas. Hoping that others will followup on the rest (fingers ache here, need to write some perl code and give my fingers a rest). allan juul wrote: > * bullet list of perhaps 5 major reasons to upgrade > > can someone tell joe public in very few sentences what i gain by > upgrading to mod_perl 2? I guess there is more than 5, but it's a good idea. Any takers? > * timing - is 3-4 weeks a good date or does the news drown in > forgetfulness (xmas and new years hollidays). maybe it's even better to > wait to january ? > > proper PR is probaly always well-planned. to me it looks like a very bad > idea to release in the middle of xmas fever (altought it's a very nice > christmas gift of course). it should also co-incide with the above > suggest of a possible banner of course we aren't really trying to sell anything. And in any case 2.0 will most likely be released after XMAS. We still have some unfinished work to do, besides the unexpected bug reports. > * lastly, don't know if this has been discused before, i really think > that we should appoint 1-2 people responsible for the pr of this > software. [people who can afford the time envolved] +1 -- __ Stas BekmanJAm_pH --> Just Another mod_perl Hacker http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
