Forrest,
Excellent example. My grandson is a certified welder.
When he graduated high school he had four of the five
required certificates / classes to be certified. The company
he now works for said they would hire him at their trainiee
rate until he finished his classes and actually got his
I’d agree with that. The law may treat a corporation as a person, but a
corporation would have a much harder time claiming that they have a
race/religion/orientation/disability. An individual can claim any of those
things. There are people who actually would discriminate for some or all of
Yep, that's what I mean.
If I need a certified welder, until a given person is a certified welder
that person does me exactly zero good as far as my need for a certified
welder. Which means that the value to me of that person as a certified
welder is zero.
They may be worth $15/hr as a janitor
Haven’t had a good bout of lent breaking for quite some time.
Jaime asked how to subscribe again a couple days ago. I have not noticed him
signing up yet...
From: fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 1:59 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB
Chuck, I don't doubt you are doing well.
That being said, don't go breaking lent now :)
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
From: "Chuck McCown via AF"
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: "Chuck McCown"
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Spin your prose all you want, but I have
I didn't say corporations cannot sue. I said corporations have fewer protections than employees.
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
From: "Chuck McCown"
To: fiber...@mail.com
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Really, corporations cannot sue for
“As far as the stupid things people do to mess up their lives, bad choices
abound. Not my fault, not my responsibility. “
100%. I only concede the point that those prior bad choices might paint them
into a corner. It does not obligate you to offer them more money.
From: AF On
Really, corporations cannot sue for libel? Defamation?
You bet they can. Thousands of cases that can be cited.
I think even Oprah was sued by a company for this once.
Corp body.
Corporation: a body that has the same rights as a natural person in the eyes
of the law.
From:
You may be right. Some Googling shows there are some lawsuits involving
Glassdoor, but generally the employer is suing the employee for making
defamatory statements, and glass door can be forced by subpoena to reveal their
identity. In some cases Glassdoor was named as a defendant in
Glassdoor provides reviews of companies, not employees.
Companies have fewer protections than employees in this regard.
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
From: "Chuck McCown"
To: fiber...@mail.com
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
If that was
Let’s say Forrest needs a PCB layout person.
You take the unskilled, unwashed, serf off of the street and give them an
interview, say: “here is a schematic, how would you make me a PCB”. They
might not know enough to even ask “what’s a PCB”.
This person has less than zero value because
The job listing said $15-35/hr as it's starting range.
The job description said if you come with no skills other than an ability
and willingness to learn it's $15/hr, and any skills you bring will
increase that starting wage. The listing was perfectly clear that the $15
was was only for up to 6
If that was true, the courts would be packed with Glassdoor litigation.
From: fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 1:33 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Cc: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
There's a first time for everything :)
However, what you were proposing was
Spin your prose all you want, but I have no end of applicants for this
“suppressed” welder trainee pay...
I am actually turning applicants away.
QED
I pay everyone as little as I can. Most companies do. Payroll is an expense.
We all attempt to minimize expense items on the income
There's a first time for everything :)
However, what you were proposing was formalizing the process and leaving a paper trail. This would substantially increase the risk of litigation. The abuse aspect was already mentioned multiple times, so not all of it would be unwarranted.
- Jared
I interpreted it in a more hyperbolic way. I.E. The value of an unskilled
person is zero to Forrest because Forrest requires skilled labor. I don’t
imagine that Forrest truly believes any person (skilled or otherwise) has zero
value.
The point about deferring income is well taken. People
That’s fair. There’s a time and a place.
-Adam
From: AF On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 2:50 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
Not discussing compensation early in the process is just wasting everybody's
time.
I never work
The counterexamples were in response to the absolutist statement regardling the lack of value of labor. They were not directly related to market of welders.
Indirectly, however, they relate via supply and demand. All labor has a market clearing price. If the market price of unskilled labor is
One of the more valuable hints you can receive goes something like this: Well,
I sure hope you require all new candidates to pass a drug test.
That comment is solid gold.
From: Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 1:07 PM
To: dmmoff...@gmail.com ; 'AnimalFarm Microwave
Also attendance records. Did they ever do a no call no show. Did they ever
have a physical altercation with another employee. Were they ever suspected of
stealing or time card fraud...
Lots of questions get asked and answered. This is the way business works.
From: Chuck McCown via AF
Been an employer for over 40 years now, thousands of employees over the years,
many hundreds of HR calls made and received between hundreds of companies.
Zero litigation. Zero rumors of litigation. Zero threats of litigation.
Moreover, everyone we call is forthcoming with frank
We already have an example of such a employer reported system be abused by
ahole management. Take the example of wells Fargo and it's abuse of the U5
system.
On Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 2:36 PM wrote:
> If it’s *not* true it would be libel. If the practice was found to
> disproportionately impact
We do it all the time. Would you rehire this person? #1 question asked and
answered. You are communicating the same thing.
From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 12:33 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' ; fiber...@mail.com
Cc: 'Chuck McCown'
Subject: RE:
Not discussing compensation early in the process is just wasting everybody's time.
I never work with clients I do not already know that they have the means and the will to pay me going rates.
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
To: "'AnimalFarm
“This is provably incorrect. Counterexample: slavery and forced labor.”
I’m not sure what the relevance is of forced labor in this discussion. Do you
mean because a $0 “employee” drives down the market price?
Where are the slave welders that would alter Chuck’s pay scale? I’m open to
Litigation, or risk thereof, is the reason why a lot of corporations will only confirm that a person was previously employed there and the dates of employment.
I believe Colorado was the first state to require posting salary ranges.
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
Further: credit ratings are not subjective. You paid the bill or you didn’t
pay the bill. If the credit bureau is wrong you can get the info corrected by
simply proving you did pay it.
Criminal records are not subjective either. You pled guilty, or you were
proven guilty beyond reasonable
If it’s not true it would be libel. If the practice was found to
disproportionately impact one group or another it could be a civil rights issue.
Proving libel or civil rights issues are both difficult, but I think this
service would be under constant threat of lawsuits and just the legal
This is provably incorrect. Counterexample: slavery and forced labor.
$15/h may be an awesome deal or it may not, if working at McDonald's pays $18/h.
Market wages do not really care about what's "fair" or "reasonable".
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 6:09 PM
Exactly what would be the complaint in the litigation? Disparagement?
Not a valid complaint if true. Not actionable if true. You can legally
disparage all you want as long as you are telling the truth. Been on FB much?
Oh, he posted a mean thing in the database... Ima gonna sue. Yeah,
We haven’t seen the ad, so that’s an assumption.
We could just as easily assume the applicant didn’t read it right.
From: AF On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 2:11 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
You seem surprised that you were
It does if you are learning something you can use to make more money.
My first non family farm job was an UNPAID apprenticeship at a machine shop.
How, pray tell, was that not an investment in myself? I currently have 22,400
square feet of CNC machine shop right outside my office door.
How does an applicant know what the “market wage” is? If it was me I’d be
looking at statistics from the department of labor. The NY department of labor
will give you statistics broken down by city and county for a whole gaggle of
possible job descriptions. By necessity it’ll be an average.
EXACTLY
From: Cassidy B. Larson
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 11:49 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
It’d be like Glassdoor, but for employers.
I’m told such a thing exists in the medical industry already. Apparently my
sister in law is
This seems like such a no-brainer on paper, but there is an actual value to cultural context.
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 at 6:00 PM
From: "Paul Dowling via AF"
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
Cc: "Paul Dowling"
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
If you can
You seem surprised that you were turned down when you didn't communicate clearly up front that the potential employee was being considered for a $25/hr role?
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
From: "Forrest Christian (List Account)"
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"
A market wage does not imply skill or experience. Even unskilled workers have a market wage.
An underpaid job does not equate investement in yourself.
- Jared
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023
From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
To: "'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'"
Subject: Re:
... or each company could post salary ranges, as already required in some states. This obliviates the need for a middle man.
As to a permanent record, that would probably be illegal in multiple states and an excellent way of being on the receiving end of litigation. And not without cause,
It’d be like Glassdoor, but for employers. I’m told such a thing exists in the medical industry already. Apparently my sister in law is solicited by other hospitals from it, due to her high marks.. she also has a couple of negative issues in it but was able to write a dispute and submit to her
I like the first idea, but the second not so much. It is so subjective as
to what makes someone a bad employee. It could be that he is great at
something that the other company didn't let him do or that he wasn't guided
correctly, or a number of things. I have seen people who were fired for bad
There is a new startup for you, have potential employees register, potential
employers register, match up the ones that have overlap. “Legal Tender”
Here is another one.
I wish there as a service that employers could subscribe to where we can all
report bad employees. Give people kinda a
I really wish there was a way that one could determine if the maximum an
employer was willing to pay overlapped with the minimum an employee would
accept without completely spoiling the whole negotiation process.
I don't want to waste anyone's time if I won't be able to pay anything
close to what
If they didn’t advertise any range or even a ballpark figure at all then it’s
fair to ask what they had in mind.
From: AF On Behalf Of Zach Underwood
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 11:28 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] FB Exchange
I disagree with
This discussion reminds me of this article:
https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person
It’s a fantastic article.
From: AF On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 11:10 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
I disagree with that, late last year I was laid off so most of January I
was looking for another job. I was making over 100k at the last role and
more than one interview in January for a role only to find out they top
out at like 60k. So after that I would only interview if I knew the range.
It
Is paying for college an investment in yourself?
So what is wrong with getting paid to be trained?
How is that not an investment in yourself.
What are market wages for someone with no skills, no training, no job history?
Are you one that believes that because you have a heartbeat you
Not only that, but part of Job Hunting 101 is don’t discuss compensation too
early. This isn’t some executive level skill, everyone should know this. You
can negotiate once it’s understood that both parties are interested.
From: AF On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent:
The value of someone with zero skills and experience is zero.
The fact that many employers are willing to hire someone that has zero
skills and experience at $15/hr and train them at zero cost to the employee
is an awesome deal for a person who wants an opportunity.
Unfortunately it seems that a
If you can work remote for $18/hour, why don't I search for an
english speaker in a foreign country willing to work for $5/hour?
Paul
--
Paul Dowling
dowl...@believebroadband.com
Believe Broadband
www.believebroadband.com
(410) 902-0070 x115
On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 10:56 AM Forrest Christian
I listed a job about a year ago with multiple pay rates depending on
experience.
The lowest tier was at $15 an hour if you have zero experience and a
willingness to learn. It was also very clear in the description that this
was a training wage and would only last around 6 months or less
A job where you can learn skills to make yourself more valuable is an
investment in yourself.
If you look at the market wage and think you get that on your first day without
having any skill or experience yet then you are not being realistic.
From: AF On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
I don't quite get the logic of this.
Why would you work for less than market wages?
How is working for less than market wages an investment in yourself?
- Jared
On Wednesday, February 15, 2023 Chuck Macenski wrote:
One way to say it: "The youth of today cannot live on $15 an
Things have improved dramatically on the whole over time.
My dilapidated house that I mentioned earlier was built in the 1920’s. It had
additions put on in the 1950’s, but the original house was 20ft x 20ft with a
coal stove in the basement and gravity heat for the 1st and 2nd floor. It
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