Re: DIS: A proto
Before I get dogpiled for being called a "racist" - different races, in a very general way, have different medical needs. What I mainly wanted to bring up back then was that it puts those in a racial minority at a disadvantage when general medical culture seems (often unintentionally) catered towards a particular racial majority and 'political correctness' silences voices that want to bring up that these minorities generally have different inborn vulnerabilities than the majority. It seems racist to say "darker skinned people need more sunlight to be healthy". But it's true. I'm darker skinned myself, I want to know these things to get the vitamin D I need! This doesn't only apply to skin color, but ultimately, what's more important, political correctness, or people's health? About trans people, I think I'm the only guy making hard questions about the phenomenon. I curious about these things that people seem so hushed about. Like, for example: Why are the vast majority of women on Agora, trans? Stone me, burn me on the stake, I am legitimately curious. On Wednesday, August 31, 2022, Sarah S. via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 9:40 AM Sarah S. wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 3:32 AM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> On 8/30/2022 9:25 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: > >> > On Tue, 2022-08-30 at 18:14 +0200, Madrid via agora-discussion wrote: > >> >> Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. > >> >> > >> >> It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak > >> >> removed. > >> > >> [snip] > >> > >> > I probably wouldn't object to a widespread change to singular-they if > >> > the general view of the playerlist is that that would be preferable, > >> > but it would be likely to add a little extra confusion for no real > >> > benefit (the distinction between singular "e" and plural "they" makes > >> > it easier to parse what a rule is saying). > >> > > >> > >> Just as a minor clarification, I'm not arguing for Spivak per se based > on > >> "ancient tradition" but more along the lines you suggest here, of > >> evaluating our community standards continuously but generally > >> respectfully. The important point for me is that this is not just an > >> isolated quibble over a single instance of language use (and a single > >> unfortunate comparison), but rather an inability to reach a reasonable > >> accommodation with the current community's longstanding/currently- > standing > >> practices. > >> > >> That stuff is just exhausting and not fun in any gaming group, beyond > any > >> historical points or future changes. > >> > >> -G. > >> > >> I personally support spivak - any change to referring to players always > > by the singular 'they' would probably offend me - I'm not a they, I'm a > > she. E/em pronouns, as something that are generally confined within the > > game, don't annoy me in the same way that 'they' would and I enjoy our > odd > > little game pronouns. That said, Agora Is A Nomic and people are free to > > advocate changing to the use of preferred pronouns if they like - this > > doesn't bother me particularly much when Madrid does it. I too find them > > odd to adapt to (and get them wrong quite often), and blognomic did start > > with spivak then abolish them many years ago. And yes, I do think > > traditions ought to be questioned - a substantial majority of the player > > base is newer and if they choose to revise something that doesn't work > for > > them, they should do so. > > > > What bothers me rather more is Madrid's attitude to trans people and > women > > expressed on discord, which I think is quite consistently > discriminatory. E > > has also made remarks about racial differences (deleted by moderator) > which > > in my view were discriminatory. To be clear, I don't remotely feel > > emotionally threatened by Madrid, nor do I feel like e > > personally discriminates against or devalues other players including > myself > > - which is why I don't want to ban em. E is, perhaps unfortunately, quite > > good at confining these conversations to the abstract. But I do want to > > make it clear that I think women ought not be needlessly sexualised, > trans > > people should be accomodated, and ideologies that approach 'race-realism' >
Re: DIS: A proto
(I agree with the other points though. My perspective was/is largely mostly concerned with the recent context and I suspect that it has a similar significant influence on others too, because this historical arcana isn't obvious. Although if the argument ever was 'this is tradition, that's why it has to stay like this' I'm not for that either regardless.) On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Madrid wrote: > Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. > > It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak removed. > > On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > >> [I apologize in advance to others - I don't want to prolong this >> further/at all, but I think the specific Agoran context is important to >> lay out.] >> >> Madrid wrote: >> > - To further illustrate how the current push for neopronouns/neolanguage >> > isn't natively Spanish but (mostly) orginated in the US as a movement, >> >> This is an Agoran thing, not a broader language question. Back in 1993, >> well before it was a big "U.S." thing, Agorans collectively decided to use >> e and eir, for specific and conscious reasons. It is part of the *Agoran* >> culture (if it matters, the game at the time was dominated by Aus/NZ >> players, not the US). It was also out of specific respect to Grand Hero >> of Agora Douglas Hofstadter, who, back in the 1980s, dedicated Scientific >> American columns (the same column in which e popularized Nomic) to the >> pernicious effects of inherent linguistic sexism. It was a subject e was >> passionate about, and one that we found important back in the 1990s when >> almost nobody else did. >> >> In 2017, when we had several new players, we gently corrected those >> who joined, when they didn't use the lingo. Just as others have been, >> including myself, for the whole history of the game. Yours is the only >> response I remember that was basically "I'm going to keep using it because >> my convenience as a new player is more important that your long-running >> culture": >> >> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora >> -business/2017-June/035225.html >> >> And nix called you out then, too: >> >> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora >> -business/2017-June/035228.html >> >> After 5 years of this not getting any better. Literally no one else since >> I joined again in 2001, in my memory, has had any issues once it was >> explained. I'm really really tired of arguing the point, it's not why I >> come here to play this game. >> >> Madrid wrote: >> > To someone who isn't in the neopronouns/neolanguage camp, it feels like >> > some external ideology (be it Sharia Law or neopronouns) barging in to >> > claim that they're correct to some degree and that certain things need >> > to change to a certain amount to accommodate them. >> >> You're partially correct, except for the key point that this is *internal* >> not *external*. A voluntary group that has been running for over 27 years >> is asking a single relative newcomer to respect its traditions, traditions >> that were carefully thought out and defended for years when it was a weird >> oddity and harder to explain. I'm glad the cultural zeitgeist has caught >> up in some places. >> >> And no other newcomer has had issues, or if they have they've quietly >> ducked out. If you want to compare that to a oppressive regime - well the >> difference (and what makes it an insulting comparison) is that unlike many >> under Sharia Law, you are 100% free and privileged to leave with no >> consequences. >> >> This is just a simple matter: THIS IS HOW THIS PARTICULAR GAME IS >> PLAYED. If you don't like it, there's plenty of other games to enjoy. >> This one probably just isn't a good fit. >> >> -G. >> >
Re: DIS: A proto
Its true that I don't care much about upholding ancient tradition. It's nomic, a game of change, and I'm very willing to see Spivak removed. On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > [I apologize in advance to others - I don't want to prolong this > further/at all, but I think the specific Agoran context is important to > lay out.] > > Madrid wrote: > > - To further illustrate how the current push for neopronouns/neolanguage > > isn't natively Spanish but (mostly) orginated in the US as a movement, > > This is an Agoran thing, not a broader language question. Back in 1993, > well before it was a big "U.S." thing, Agorans collectively decided to use > e and eir, for specific and conscious reasons. It is part of the *Agoran* > culture (if it matters, the game at the time was dominated by Aus/NZ > players, not the US). It was also out of specific respect to Grand Hero > of Agora Douglas Hofstadter, who, back in the 1980s, dedicated Scientific > American columns (the same column in which e popularized Nomic) to the > pernicious effects of inherent linguistic sexism. It was a subject e was > passionate about, and one that we found important back in the 1990s when > almost nobody else did. > > In 2017, when we had several new players, we gently corrected those > who joined, when they didn't use the lingo. Just as others have been, > including myself, for the whole history of the game. Yours is the only > response I remember that was basically "I'm going to keep using it because > my convenience as a new player is more important that your long-running > culture": > > https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/ > agora-business/2017-June/035225.html > > And nix called you out then, too: > > https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/ > agora-business/2017-June/035228.html > > After 5 years of this not getting any better. Literally no one else since > I joined again in 2001, in my memory, has had any issues once it was > explained. I'm really really tired of arguing the point, it's not why I > come here to play this game. > > Madrid wrote: > > To someone who isn't in the neopronouns/neolanguage camp, it feels like > > some external ideology (be it Sharia Law or neopronouns) barging in to > > claim that they're correct to some degree and that certain things need > > to change to a certain amount to accommodate them. > > You're partially correct, except for the key point that this is *internal* > not *external*. A voluntary group that has been running for over 27 years > is asking a single relative newcomer to respect its traditions, traditions > that were carefully thought out and defended for years when it was a weird > oddity and harder to explain. I'm glad the cultural zeitgeist has caught > up in some places. > > And no other newcomer has had issues, or if they have they've quietly > ducked out. If you want to compare that to a oppressive regime - well the > difference (and what makes it an insulting comparison) is that unlike many > under Sharia Law, you are 100% free and privileged to leave with no > consequences. > > This is just a simple matter: THIS IS HOW THIS PARTICULAR GAME IS > PLAYED. If you don't like it, there's plenty of other games to enjoy. > This one probably just isn't a good fit. > > -G. >
Re: DIS: A proto
I know that nix has been offended by my 4chan-adjacent way of talking in the past. If it's about that, I accept the guilt. But if it's about my political arguments, I don't think that a Fage should be summoned because of that. In the same way that the US people are heavily influenced by their own anglosphere and local ideologies, I'm just some guy who is also heavily influenced by my own local ideologies. We won't always agree, and I don't mind that. You can check the Discord's #very-serious-agoran-business for what went down, but here's my report on what I understand to be, at the moment, nix's final straw. I believe there may have been some accidental misinterpretation from nix (some others have pointed it out eg. what I said in regards to feminism), so I'll go more in depth in what I said and wanted to argue. - So I was conversing with Aspen about language - I brought up the Real Academia Española, which is basically the Spanish office of Spanish Language for what is officially Actually Spanish Language. They publish dictionaries and grammar stuff regularly. It's the closest thing to an objective way to determine what is *correct* Spanish and what isn't, it's been considered that for years by Spanish schools and academia and whatnot. And the RAE does not support gender-neutral Spanish as actual Spanish. - Then I got a reply from Aspen which I found it to be misguided and holier-than-thou. I disliked it. But at the end of the day, I really don't mind. I am OK with them thinking and arguing that way: "I guess, my point is, there's probably some period of time when (some) people understand a word but it isn't officialized yet." "And if people use e, just because it hasn't been officialized, that doesn't make it *incorrect.*" - I compared this to Sharia Law, because Aspen's argument seems to imply that there's some new, 'correct' rule (or at least, 'not incorrect') to things that other people just haven't caught onto yet. That, it's alright and 'not incorrect' to use Spivak. Well, I argue that yes, sure, and the Sharia Law supporters feel similarly, that other nations are misguided and that Sharia Law in their jurisdiction is 'not incorrect'. To someone who isn't in the neopronouns/neolanguage camp, it feels like some external ideology (be it Sharia Law or neopronouns) barging in to claim that they're correct to some degree and that certain things need to change to a certain amount to accommodate them. This is related to, but still separate from my next point, which is more about culture rather than what rules are correct or not. - To further illustrate how the current push for neopronouns/neolanguage isn't natively Spanish but (mostly) orginated in the US as a movement, I also explained how other things have arrived to Spain by US cultural export, like modern feminism, and how Spain lagged behind it by 1-2 years after it got really big in the US. There's truth in the Spanish lover stereotype where shirtless handsome men on a horse treat doe-eyed women as helpless children and sweep them off their feet to carry them off - Spain is extremely sexist (it's very "machista"). Feminism is prevalent in Europe nowadays and instead of focusing on nourishing and empowering women with education and employment opportunity like Nordic countries do, Spain focuses more on victimizing and protecting women and giving them direct financial aid. I find it babying, in comparison to Nordic countries, but I get why they do it, because Spain is still very machista. Regardless of if its good or bad, it's just how the culture here is. In any case, modern feminism is a foreign-imported idea to Spain. And so neolanguage. Beyond how interconnected we all are always, both are movements that most heavily originated in the US and are foreign cultural import to Spain. That was my point. On Tuesday, August 30, 2022, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On 8/29/22 13:23, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > > We now have a player who is directly responsible for three FAGEs. I > > believe that it's time we discuss a mechanism similar to the one below. > > > Correction on this: directly responsible for one successful FAGE and one > attempted FAGE that failed on a technicality. > > I was misremembering some additional heated discussion that e was > responsible for as ending in a FAGE. > > -- > Jason Cobb > > Arbitor, Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason > >
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] The Cheepening
I don't think this helps much because the game is still mostly limited to
those in the upper half or so of money ranking fmpov because it's still a
money-fuelled competitive game.
On Friday, August 19, 2022, secretsnail9 via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> I submit the following proposal:
>
> {
> Title: The Cheepening
> Adoption Index: 1.0
> Author: secretsnail
> Co-author(s):
>
> Amend Rule 2661 (Permits) by replacing "A player CAN buy a beast permit by
> paying a fee of 50 boatloads of coins." with "A player CAN buy a beast
> permit by paying a fee of 30 boatloads of coins."
>
> and by replacing "A player CAN renew eir beast permit by paying a fee of 25
> boatloads of coins." with "A player CAN renew eir beast permit by paying a
> fee of 15 boatloads of coins."
>
>
> Amend Rule 2663 (Bird Migration) by replacing "A player CAN buy bird food
> by paying a fee of 5 boatloads of coins." with "A player CAN buy bird food
> by paying a fee of 3 boatloads of coins."
>
>
> Amend Rule 2675 (Dream of Wandering) by replacing
>
> - Dream of Beasts: E CAN buy bird food by paying a fee of 3
> boatloads of coins. E CAN buy a Beast Permit by paying a fee of
> 40 boatloads of coins. E CAN renew a Beast Permit by paying a
> fee of 20 boatloads of coins.
>
> with
>
> - Dream of Beasts: E CAN buy bird food by paying a fee of 2
> boatloads of coins. E CAN buy a Beast Permit by paying a fee of
> 20 boatloads of coins. E CAN renew a Beast Permit by paying a
> fee of 10 boatloads of coins.
>
>
>
> [An effort to make birds more approachable. They always fly away when you
> get too close.]
>
> }
> --
> secretsnail
>
DIS: humble agoran farmer REJECTS the informal power of CFJs
It has been discussed on Discord how the CFJs are a formal system that ultimately just produce informally-enforced judgements - the judgements and their interpretation aren't binding. So. I hereby reject the informal power of CFJs. I don't recognize their informal authority any more. I am out of its unwritten social contract, because from now on, I just won't play along. I don't mean any ill to the current CFJ system. I think it works decently well, and I may change back. But for now, I want to experiment with this new way to do things. To replace the regular Agoran court, I will now follow the rule of the Militia Court: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Atk7oQTY3mkZukiiTLiG4d7MwB1rB_F1fXwAcykmavo/edit#gid=0 It's an officerless informal judgement system, that is deliberately intended to parallel how the current CFJ system works (because I think that works fine enough), but without the need of an Arbitor. Feel free to improve it or to ask those involved about what changes you'd like to add - it's all informal, so what really just matters is what each of you decide to commit to. The choice is yours.
Re: DIS: A Quick Agora Survey
1 - Slow, Obscure, Intellectual, Social 2 - I started out with BN, and figured I could try another nomic. 3 - The time I was playing the Sets era competitively. Trading with other players, planning, trying to beat the Obs Pool and just general interpersonal interaction was very fun for me. 4 - Gameplay that doesn't (heavily) rely on coins or Proposals. Like Sets had it. 5 - No more officers. On Sat, Jun 25, 2022 at 9:01 PM nix via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > Hey all, please take a moment to answer this survey. I'm gonna use some > of it for something later, but I also figured it'd just be fun to discuss. > > 1) Choose 3-5 adjectives to describe Agora. > > 2) What brought you to Agora? > > 3) What's your favorite era/event/moment in Agora? > > 4) What do you miss from previous times in Agora? > > 5) What do you want to see in the future of Agora? > > I may ask a few more questions later, not sure yet. > -- > nix > Herald, Registrar, Collector > >
DIS: Re: (@richer/older players) BUS: A Festival Against Proposal 8694
I qualify but, explicitly not supporting. On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 3:22 AM Jason Cobb via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On 6/14/22 20:57, ais523 via agora-business wrote: > > I intend, with 4 support from players with 5 or greater Laudability, to > > Start a Rank 5 Festival. (I am not planning to resolve this intent > > unless proposal 8694 or 8695 has enough votes to be ADOPTED.) > > > > [It appears that several newer/poorer players are attempting to use > > their numbers to effectively reset the game without compensation, > > gaining an advantage directly by proposal. Although attempting that > > sort of thing is a valid move in nomic, you should expect pushback from > > the people who are negatively effected; and because Votives have > > unwisely been repealed, this is the main avenue open to me to fight > > back. > > > > Additionally, proposal 8694 may well end up setting the value of a > > boatload to 0. This will cause semi-permanent damage to many subgames, > > e.g. players will be able to make arbitrarily many Stamps for free. So > > it'll make gameplay less fun for everyone, not just the players who > > have Coins.] > > > > I support. > > -- > Jason Cobb > > Arbitor, Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason > >
DIS: Re: BUS: Betrayer's Guild
(unanimity or some amount close enough to it) Also, sorry for sending that to a-b On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 9:26 AM Madrid wrote: > I think this could work but it's going to require unanimity, because > otherwise it's just too strong to not be in the Guild and reap the benefits > of still being able to make deals effectively to outpace opponents that > happen to be in the Guild. > > I'll join the Guild if enough activate players are already in the Guild or > make commitments similar to this one. >
DIS: Re: (@Arbitor, Treasuror, Mad Engineer; @Jason) BUS: Blowing up the economy
What an entirely unforeseen event to happen to the Device oh my who could have predicted that the Device would end up used in such an explosive way wow this is incredible On Thu, Jun 2, 2022 at 5:44 PM secretsnail9 via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > My judgement of CFJ 3964 follows. > > There's a lot to go into here, so I'll go in order of the actions taken. > > "Without 3 objections, I assign the Device to myself. [This would fail > if the Device had an assigned judge.]" > > This succeeds the first time, according to the tabled action rules, and > should also succeed any subsequent times if the device has no assigned > judge by those same rules, as ais523 "is a sponsor of a mature ripe intent > with less than [3] objectors." But this only applies if the device is off, > as that is when the tabled action is allowed. > > After the first device assignment, "the Device changes, following which > each active player gains 1 card of each type and eir grant (if any)". What > does it mean for the device to change? We actually have a definition for a > device change: > > "A Device change is any effect that falls into the above > classes." > > but this only applies when the device is on, so the device changing is > undefined at this point. The device has multiple properties that could > change, including its assigned judge, its value, and potentially other > attributes. There is nothing that specifies what is to be changed about the > device, and where the text is silent, Rule 217 applies. Common sense seems > to indicate the first choice for what a change is is to turn the device > from off to on, or vice versa. It seems there is no other indication as to > what should change about the device, so if something has to change, which > it should for the best interest of the game in order to resolve ambiguity, > it would be the device's value, to on. Similar arguments plus a previous > judgement apply to the deactivation of the device. > > When ais523 attempts to assign the device to emself the second time, we > need to look with more scrutiny. What happened the first time? > > If a Device has no judge assigned, then any player eligible to > judge that Device CAN assign it to emself without 3 > objections. > > So ais523 assigned the device to emself. Does that mean the device has a > judge assigned? ais523 is certainly a judge, as e has judged multiple > CFJs. So the device is assigned to a judge. This certainly implies the > device has a judge assigned, but that is not explicit, the text is silent > and unclear, and Rule 217 applies. > > The condition is if the device has a judge assigned, but it doesn't specify > if the judge is assigned to the device or if the device is assigned to you, > which implies it's equating the two. The condition would also always be > true if the assignment wasn't symmetrical, when the action is implied to be > only supposed to be taken once; being able to take the action multiple > times just defies common sense: A device assigned to a judge has a judge > assigned. Game custom supports this, as the phrase "has no judge assigned" > wasn't explicitly coded in Rule 991 (Calls for Judgement) either, yet we > agree it works that way. It is concealed, but unambiguous, because the > choice was already previously made to equate the two. > > So ais523 is the judge assigned, that the device has, and 99 of eir > attempts failed, both for the assignments and the deactivations (as the > device remained off), so all of eir attempts at cashing in sets of cards > failed. As such, e did not have enough winsomes to Take Over the Economy. I > judge CFJ 3964 FALSE. > > > With eligibility concerns: > > "The players eligible to be assigned as judge are all active > players except the initiator and the person barred (if any)." > > This part of Rule 991 (Calls for Judgement) pretty clearly was only meant > to apply for CFJs, but the device doesn't care about that. It says: > > If a Device has no judge assigned, then any player eligible to > judge that Device CAN assign it to emself without 3 > objections. > > > Using that key word, eligible, which this time, we actually have a > definition for. Now what we don't have defined for the device is who the > initiator and the person barred are. Again the next is silent, and common > sense would say "the initiator" is a single player. For CFJs, it was the > initiator of the CFJ, so it makes sense to read this as "the initiator of > the device." > > To "initiate" is defined by Merriam-Webster as > > 1 *: *to cause or facilitate the beginning of *: *set going initiate a > program of reform enzymes that initiate fermentation > 2 *: *to induct into membership by or as if by special rites > 3 *: *to instruct in the rudiments or principles of something *(syn. > introduce)* > > These definitions lead to at least three different reasonable possibilities > I can see: > > The initiator of the
DIS: Re: OFF: [Herald] Happy Birthday Madrid
hi agora please give me money ty On Fri, May 20, 2022 at 2:26 PM nix via agora-official < agora-offic...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > Today is Madrid's 5th Agoran Birthday. Please wish em a happy one by > granting em coins. You can once grant em 3 boatloads today or 2 > boatloads for the next 7 days. > > -- > nix > Herald, Collector, Registrar, Prime Minister > >
DIS: humble agoran farmer breaks the silence
*the sound of a loud and violent flatulence*
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Re: endgame
we already know that informal auctions are clearly superior to formal ones so what about informal win conditions? this is the next step in agoran evolution On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 9:19 PM Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > On 5/8/2022 11:13 AM, ais523 via agora-discussion wrote: > > On Sun, 2022-05-08 at 11:06 -0700, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote: > >> I withdraw my previous proposal, Endgame. > >> > >> I submit the following proposal, Endgame, AI-1, and pay a pendant to > pend it: > >> > >> --- > >> > >> Create the following power=1 rule, titled Buyout: > >> > >> Any player who has not taken over the economy in the last 30 > >> days CAN pay a fee of N Winsomes to create 500 times N coins > >> in eir possession, provided e does so unconditionally and > >> without disclaimers, acting as emself, in a message body > >> containing no other actions or other action attempts, and > explicitly > >> specifies N in the message (i.e. without indirect references such > >> as "all"). > >> > >> One week after this rule first takes effect, the winds die down. > >> > >> Immediately after Rule 2658 (The Winds Die Down) is repealed, > >> this rule is repealed. > >> > >> - > > > > I'm suddenly really curious about what scam this is trying to prevent. > > > > So, the reason this is "endgame" and not just "trade-in" is of course that > if people start to trade in and there's fewer winsomes in the game, > last-minute wins are quite possible. This is obviously a "move as close > to the deadline as possible" sort of game (if anyone actually tries to win > that way), which are never great in Agora, but any hard end to Sets would > be against a some kind of hard deadline - so I was just trying to make it > as dynamic as possible. > > To that end IMO: > > - Requiring specification of N improves instead of allowing "all" etc. > adds an element of risk to getting it wrong. > > - Conditionals: "If I have enough Winsomes I take over the economy, > otherwise I trade in" greatly reduces the risk of doing stuff last-minute, > making the exercise pretty boring. > > - Disclaimers: You can fake someone out by saying "I trade in 10" if > you've only got 9. But to avoid No Faking, you'd need to include a > disclaimer. This limits that tactic and makes it ILLEGAL to do that kind > of thing. > > - No other actions in the message: You could get around the "explicit > specification of N" by saying "I pay 20, I pay 19, I pay 18..." and having > only the one corresponding with "all" succeed. > > - acting as emself: Unwinding arrangements like the OP is less > interesting if a side-contract is written so one person does it at the > same time on behalf of all the involved parties. > > Will this make an interesting endgame? Dunno. But once I started writing > out the principle of just "all moves must be basic unconditional moves" > there were lots of loopholes to patch - and I'm sure I didn't get them > all... > > -G. > >
DIS: Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer stays alive
agora moment On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 11:32 PM ais523 via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On Sat, 2022-05-07 at 17:05 -0400, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > > On 5/7/22 13:21, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote: > > > On 5/7/2022 4:32 AM, Madrid via agora-business wrote: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNFzfwLM72c > > > > > > > > haha you cant dereg me > > > > > > > > i intend to declare apathy btw, specifying myself > > > I object. > > > > As do I. > > I assume that this is meant to mean "I also object", but I don't want > to take the risk that it's interpreted as "I also intend to declare > apathy". > > To be on the safe side, I object to all intents to declare apathy. > (Disclaimer: some of these actions fail because I've objected to the > intent already, and you can't object to the same intent twice.) > > -- > ais523 > >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Mad Engineer weekly random rule selection
Oh, this is still a thing?
On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 2:44 AM ais523 via agora-discussion <
agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 2022-04-18 at 02:41 +0200, nethack4.org dicebot via agora-
> business wrote:
> > The dice roll was: 144
> > This is R2656, Points.
>
> For reference:
> {{{
>A player's Score, indicated in Points, is an integer player switch
>defaulting to 0, tracked by the Herald.
>
>Upon a correct announcement from a player that one or more players
>have a score of 100+ points, all players meeting this condition
>win the game. If a least one player wins the game via such an
>announcement, all players' scores are set to their default.
> }}}
>
> Not much to work with this week. Any suggestions?
>
> --
> ais523
> Mad Enigneer
>
>
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [proposal] No finger pointing on behalf
Kind of crossposting from Discord but: Ive played loads of the Sets game (I won once!!) and it was very fun while I was engaged with it. I didn't mind that the part of gathering 4 for a Set was "solveable", because the fun of the game wasn't there, it was in what Ais has pointed out, where you still need to negotiate and tackle with what you got and what others have to make the most of it. It was a very fun but not in the way it was designed to behave. On Friday, April 8, 2022, nix via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > On 4/8/22 14:58, Kerim Aydin via agora-discussion wrote: > >> Huh? I don't think Cards are solved at all, and that's part of the > >> reason I find them interesting. We've solved the problem of forming > >> sets using cards from players who are active and willing to trade, but > >> there are lots of cards that players are unwilling to trade, or held by > >> inactive people, and making sets with those is much harder. > > I think the set-cashing part (so, like half the game) is nearly solved by > > the contracts - it's suppressed in-person dealing on discord noticeably, > > when a critical mass of players are just throwing things in a hopper, > > there are fewer opportunities to careful trading 1-by-1 (and the fun of > > guessing what a good deal is to different players etc). > > > Agreed. In the most recent Treasuror's report, all but 1 cash-in in the > last two months were 4 cards. That seems solved. > >> The consequence is that our current economy has really interesting > >> liquidity issues, and in practice players have been known to form > >> suboptimal trades because they need products more quickly than they'd > >> get them by forming a set and distributing the resulting products > >> fairly. > >> > > Both are going on, and I agree the resource-spending side of it isn't > > solved, but I've noticed that the card trading has just slowly tilted > more > > towards the contracts over time. > > The unsolved part in my mind is distribution. I think if you replaced > Cards with straight product rewards you'd get pretty similar play > without the contracts in-between things. > > -- > nix > Herald > > >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [proposal] No finger pointing on behalf
Oh, I had in mind to allow people to set up their own bots from their own email and revel in that anyone now has botting power. On Friday, April 8, 2022, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On 4/8/22 14:21, Madrid via agora-discussion wrote: > > Ive been looking into mailbots for officerless game tracking. > > > > If Contracts/Acting on Behalf gets repealed I'm up for using the same > tech > > for bots that can replace it. > > > > Actually, they could be useful too for secret "contracts", currently... > > > As I understand our current precedents, allowing someone to send mail > from your email address doesn't change the fact that the email is _from_ > them. What matters is the last entity involved that has free will. > > -- > Jason Cobb > > Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason > >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [proposal] No finger pointing on behalf
Ive been looking into mailbots for officerless game tracking. If Contracts/Acting on Behalf gets repealed I'm up for using the same tech for bots that can replace it. Actually, they could be useful too for secret "contracts", currently... On Friday, April 8, 2022, ais523 via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On Fri, 2022-04-08 at 13:54 -0400, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote: > > I submit, but do not pend, the following proposal: > > > > Title: No finger pointing on behalf > > FWIW, I'd prefer to expand the set of actions-on-behalf rather than > shrinking it (e.g. allowing objections/support to be made on behalf). > > One of the big advantages of being able to act on behalf is that it > takes the guesswork / constant refreshing out of timing scams, as long > as you can bribe the person who sends the message you want to react to. > If you remove that ability, then being able to get the perfect timing > is reliant primarily on how much you can stay online constantly > refreshing your email and/or how good you are at writing bots to > automatically send a message in response to another message. The latter > skill is mildly interesting, but the former skill is something that > it's a bad idea to encourage – it's a bad idea to steer people into > dedicating too much of their life to playing nomic at the expense of > other things, and refreshing your email constantly is one of the ways > you can spend a huge amount of time playing nomic. > > (I kind-of miss the days when it was possible to agree contracts in > secret, and have them gain act-on-behalf ability as soon as they were > made public, even if the consent itself hadn't been made public. > Obviously there are some issues trying to work out the gamestate if > that sort of thing is possible, but it meant that you didn't need to > make the existence of that sort of agreement public in advance and warn > everyone else about what you were up to.) > > -- > ais523 > >
DIS: Re: BUS: Hopefully you disagree
You should probably Pend this
On Friday, April 8, 2022, juan via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> I create the following proposal:
>
> {
> Title: Don't Vote For Me
> AI: 9.9
> Author: juan
>
> Ossify Agora.
> }
>
> --
> juan
>
DIS: humble agoran farmer trades Flickers
Hi, I'd like to trade "Flickers". The Stamp wincon relies on the amount of active players, and anyone can easily activate/deactivate by announcement (but not via Acting on Behalf unfortunately). So, to win, it would be helpful if someone could just momentarily deactivate to allow me to me win, then activate. I'll call the deactivation-then-prompt-activation maneuver a "Flicker". In exchange for allowing me to ask you to Flicker at some moment (like, when I have enough stamps), I will Flicker for you too. Lmk if you're interested!
DIS: Re: BUS: Purchasing promises
Hm, 1200 coins seems like a low price for unspecified (potentially crazy)
consequences.
But, I'll do it for the informal agreement that you'll vote FOR any
Proposal that is just basically "Madrid Wins" until I actually win with
such a Proposal. We can figure out how to make that work mechanically
whenever is cool with you.
On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 4:31 PM ais523 via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> I create six copies of the following promise, named "Promise me", and
> transfer them to the Library:
> {{{
> Cashing condition: In the message in which e cashes this promise, the
> bearer transfers me a promise with text "For each tabled intent
> specified by the bearer, I object to it, then withdraw my objection and
> support it" and a promise with text "For each tabled intent specified
> by the bearer, I support it, then withdraw my support and object to
> it"; each of those promises was created by the bearer and has no
> cashing conditions; and the bearer does not cash any other promise in
> this message, and has not cashed any other copy of the "Promise me"
> promise.
>
> I transfer 1200 coins to the bearer.
> }}}
>
> --
> ais523
>
>
DIS: Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer auctions 4 Winsomes
Hehasbidfourdoessomeonegivemoredoessomeonegivemore? Thatsrightheisonfourbutletshearfivedoihearfivethatsfourplusonefiveifidonthearanyfivethenheisgonnatakeitforfourdoihearfiveormaybeevensixdoihearsixoutthereinthecrowd,thatsrightyoucangetthesefourthickwinsomesforjustsevenfavorlevelsdoihearsevenfavorlevelsforsevenfavorlevelsyougetthesewinsomes On Sun, Apr 3, 2022 at 9:29 AM ais523 via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On Fri, 2022-04-01 at 15:11 +0200, Madrid via agora-business wrote: > > Hi, this is an informal auction, and you bid with favors instead of > actual > > money. > > > > You bid should be a favor level, being a favor level of 10 one session > of a > > couple hours, like to theorycraft something or to design something > complex. > > A favor level of 1 is something like a small tip or some pocket change of > > the currency at the time the favor is decided to be cashed in. > > > > Its not very exact but I trust that the participants will be satisfying > but > > reasonable, and I will too strive to be satisfying but reasonable with > the > > system. > > > > Minimum bid increment is 1, first bid is a minimum of 1! > > I bid 4. > > -- > ais523 > >
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Treasuror] First Victory Auction of March 2022
If anyone wants to loan some cash from me, let me know. You withdraw a X boatloads now and return X boatloads (the boatloads at that time) later, up to 3 months later. On Sunday, April 3, 2022, Kerim Aydin via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > On 4/2/2022 11:43 PM, Trigon via agora-business wrote: > > Kerim Aydin via agora-business escribió: > >> On 3/31/2022 9:21 AM, secretsnail9 via agora-business wrote: > On Mar 31, 2022, at 10:34 AM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote: > On 3/30/2022 5:34 PM, secretsnail9 via agora-business wrote: > >> On Mar 30, 2022, at 5:24 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business wrote: > >>> On 3/29/2022 6:48 PM, secretsnail9 via agora-business wrote: > > On Mar 29, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business > wrote: > > On 3/29/2022 2:55 PM, secretsnail9 via agora-business wrote: > >>> On Mar 29, 2022, at 2:16 PM, Kerim Aydin via agora-business > wrote: > >>> On 3/26/2022 6:21 PM, secretsnail9 via agora-business wrote: > >>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 7:33 PM Jason Cobb via agora-business > wrote: > >>> > I bid 15999 coins on the six win card lot. > >>> I bid 16100 coins on the above mentioned lot. (Of 6 win cards) > >> I bid 17011 coins on the lot of 6 win cards in this auction. > > I bid 17021 coins on the lot that had 17011 coins bid on it > above. > I bid 18000 coins on that lot. > >>> On that lot, I bid 18301 coins. > >> On that lot I bid 18,750 coins. > > I bid 19002 coins on that lot. > I bid 20001 coins on that lot. > >>> I bid 20102 coins on that there lot. > >> I bid 21000 coins on that lot. > > I bid 22000 coins on this lot. > > I bid 22500 on this lot. > > -G. > >
DIS: Re: BUS: humble agoran farmer auctions 4 Winsomes
oh, also, the auction closes after 48 hours after the last bid, sorry. thats something important i forgot to mention. On Friday, April 1, 2022, juan via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On 2022-04-01 15:11, Madrid via agora-business wrote: > > Hi, this is an informal auction, and you bid with favors instead of > actual > > money. > > […] > > Minimum bid increment is 1, first bid is a minimum of 1! > > I bid 1 (one). > > -- > juan >
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Notary] The Notes (contracts, pledges, & promises)
i want to object, but i wont, on the basis that i hope you tip me a little bit of money or something of value in exchange for it. extra points if the tip is interesting in some way. On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 4:30 AM ais523 via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > On Sun, 2022-03-20 at 21:48 -0500, secretsnail9 via agora-official wrote: > > > > "Buying bbgs badly" created by ais523 > > Bearer: ATMunn > > Text: > > > > Cashing conditions: In the same message as cashing, the bearer has > > transferred me six blot-be-gones, and it is 14 or 15 March 2022. > > > > I transfer 20 Decipoints, 2 pendants, and 3 votives to the bearer. > > > > CoE: This promise can't be owned by ATMunn, because ownership of > Promises is restricted to Agora, players, contracts, the Library, and > the Lost and Found Department (rules 2576, 2618), and ATMunn does not > fall into any of those categories. > > I suspect the promise in question is actually owned by the Lost and > Found Department. It will never be possible to cash and thus all it's > doing is cluttering up the Notary's report. > > As such, I intend, without objection, to destroy it (using the > mechanism in rule 2576). > > The "outbidding" promise is in a similar situation, but if the Notary > wants to declutter eir report of that one, e can destroy it by > announcement because e owns it (rule 2577). > > -- > ais523 > >
DIS: Re: BUS: [DoV] Dawn of a New Day
Blessed Majora's Mask references Congratulations!!! On Mon, Jan 3, 2022 at 3:11 AM Aspen via agora-business < agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote: > Last year, there were a few days that held great personal significance > for me. As of the 13th of September, I had been a player for five > years. Just over a month later, on the 21st of October, I had been > your Promotor for five years as well. > > Now, as I watch the winter holiday end and a new year begin in Agora > for the fifth time, I feel something coming over me. I have > accomplished a lot in Agora. I like it here. My fellow players are > pretty cool. The moment these happy thoughts cross my mind, I feel the > inexorable power of my spirit lifting me upward. > > I award myself a white ribbon. > > I Raise a Banner. > > -Aspen >
DIS: Re: BUS: OFFER: ANY STONE EFFECT YOU WANT! (@notary)
I bid 212 coins for you to wield the wealth stone, specifying me.
On Sun, Oct 31, 2021 at 8:31 PM Jason Cobb via agora-business <
agora-busin...@agoranomic.org> wrote:
> On 10/31/21 14:52, ais523 via agora-business wrote:
> > On Tue, 2021-10-26 at 03:14 +, Trigon via agora-business wrote:
> >> I am holding an unofficial auction for what to do with my recursion
> >> stone. Highest offer wins. Along with your bid you should submit
> >> (either publicly or privately) which stone effect you want.
> >>
> >> I'll announce the winner close to the start of 31 October. I'll
> >> create a
> >> promise in my possession that will do your stone effect as you have
> >> described in exchange for what you have bid. Then you'll perform the
> >> effect close to the end of 31 October. If it is within an hour of 31
> >> October ending and you haven't acted on your promise, I reserve the
> >> right to perform another stone effect (logistical thing -- I only
> >> want
> >> the stone to have one escape chance next month).
> >>
> >> I pledge: { I will act as I have stated in the paragraphs above under
> >> a three blot penalty. }
> >>
> >> Please keep your bids in this thread.
> > I bid 210 coins. If I win the auction, I'd like you to use the
> > Protection Stone's effect on my Wealth stone.
> >
>
> I bid 211 coins for you to wield the wealth stone, specifying me.
>
> --
> Jason Cobb
>
> Assessor, Rulekeepor, Stonemason
>
>
