Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?
There are many PhD's in economics, some with Nobel Prizes, that agree minimum wage laws and unemployment benefits drive up the cost of production. This is so easy to see that it is amazing anyone would think differently. If minimum wage laws do not create unemployment, why not raise it to $100 per hour, or even better, $500 per hour? When China dumped their Soviet style, state planned economy for a free market approach, they destroyed small manufacturing here in the US, simply because to comply with the restrictive laws here is too expensive to remain competitive. Many see high-cost government regulation as being benign, a help to the poor people. I see it differently. A 16 year-old kid could get real world experience de-tasseling corn or planting tomatoes - that is - if the government would allow him to work for a realistic wage. It is illegal for this kid to work for $6 per hour, *even* *if he wants to*. He is denied this experience, an experience for more valuable that much of the crap he gets from government schools. I would see it very hard to be objective about the question, More or less government, when one makes their living from taxes collected by the government which uses the threat of prison to get the loot. On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:43 PM, Weinzierl, Richard A weinz...@illinois.edu wrote: At the risk of being just another university person weighing in on this, I agree with David's points. Jimmy Buffet said it well ... The gods' honest truth is, it's not that simple ... and that applies when it comes to free market economics and lots of other things. Governments, laws, and policies that consider the public good and the needs of those at the lower end of the socioeconomic scale are essential. Our national policies are fraught with political motivations and a variety of other dishonesties that taint the real issues, but it is an oversimplification to expect that all would be fine if we abandoned minimum wage laws and cancelled unemployment benefits. And I admit that this is my personal view and not a research finding from my day job as an entomologist. Rick Weinzierl Professor and Extension Entomologist IL SARE PDP Coordinator Department of Crop Sciences, University of Illinois S-334 Turner Hall, 1102 S. Goodwin Avenue Urbana, IL 61801 217-244-2126 -Original Message- From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of David A. Rosenberger Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 8:31 PM To: Apple-crop discussion list Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China? So far as I know, there is no political quid pro quo for decisions on what products can be imported into the US or exported to other countries, and scientific concerns about importation of pests are given serious consideration. Nevertheless, Bill's suggestion about trading apples for flip-flops hints at some factors that may ultimately impact negotiator positioning. In this case, perhaps we should substitute soybeans for flip-flops. Has anyone checked recently to see the value of soybeans and other ag exports from the US to China? And then of course, we wouldn't want to anger China into massive selling of the US securities that they have purchased over the past several decades while we spent our wealth on meaningless wars. Thus, we are inextricably linked in a world-wide economy that at times runs rough-shod over individual winners and losers. In many cases, it is almost impossible to predict who those winners and losers will be as governments tug on the economic and political strings that interconnect countries. Reducing or eliminating minimum wage laws and unemployment insurance would not and will not solve any apple farmer problems related to US competitive capabilities in the world market. It would only increase the inequities and distancing of haves and have-nots in our county, inequities that ultimately contributed to the riots in major cities in the 1960's and that have contributed to current problems in Fergusson, MO. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. It is very difficult to have a vibrant economy in the midst of anarchy. Increasing the gap between rich and poor while at the same time burning the bridges that allow social progress for those born into poverty will almost certainly increase the the probability of lawlessness among those without any hope for the future. Apple growers who think that they could live on the current minimum wage should try it for a year, recognizing of course that one must start the experiment without any housing, without a car, a nd with no credit rating. If you really believe that the free markets (i.e., no minimum wage, no unemployment benefits) will solve our problems consider this: We already have a health care system that ranks somewhere around 29th when compared with those of other nations (and that was true before Obamacare was instituted). Yet
Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?
I agree with you, Hugh, that government regulations are rarely “benign”, and child labor restrictions that prevent young teenagers from gaining work experience are one of my pet peeves. Much of what I learned about agriculture, work ethic, and the business world has come from growing up on a farm and then working on another farm and at farm markets from ages 11 to 16. However, experience has shown that, in the absence of laws, ruthless employers will not pay $6/hr or perhaps even 60 cents per hour if they can get a needy labor force to work for 6 cents per hour (after deducting meals and housing). Our country decided the slavery issue in a bloody war many years ago, and most of us have no desire to return to that era. While minimum wage laws may drive up the price of production when a product is consider in the absence of externals, the issue is less clear of one considers the social costs of low wages. If the government does not provide any support for those at the low end of the social scale, then they have no choice but to attempt living via criminal enterprises and costs for guarding business investments increase. In some countries and some eras, farmers have been unable to prevent theft of crops unless they posted guards around the fields 24 hr/day. Would that be less expensive than paying minimum wages? Obviously not all crime is caused by poverty, and our society already has more than enough crime even with minimum wage laws in place. My point is that the straight-line assumption that reducing wages reduces costs is overly simplistic because it ignores the complexity of society and the unexpected costs of “externals” that impact every business enterprise in a destabilized society. I am currently on a trip during which my wife and I have driven nearly 2000 miles through PA, OH, MI, IN, IL, WI, and MN. It appears to me that the interstate highway system is is worse condition now than at anytime since I began driving 51 years ago. We have saved a lot of taxes by delaying maintenance on highways and bridges, but as a result, all of us are paying more for wear on our cars, delays due to slow traffic, and perhaps even increases in accidents attributable to poor roads. If the current trend continues, apple growers will soon be obliged to ship apples only in trucks that have air-cushion suspension because I suspect the rough highways will bruise apples riding to market in trucks just as much as they bruise my butt riding in a mid-size car. The need for a public highway system, along with numerous other government “services”, illustrates why a functional government and taxation system are essential for a civilized society. There is certainly plenty of government waste that should be eliminated, but I suspect that most of that “waste” is actually going to the wealthy (think lobbyists, beltway bandits, defense contractors, farm subsidies) rather than to the welfare segment of our society. Dave Rosenberger, Professor Emeritus Dept. of Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Cornell’s Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528 Office: 845-691-7231Cell: 845-594-3060 http://blogs.cornell.edu/plantpathhvl/blog-2014/ On Aug 16, 2014, at 2:35 AM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.commailto:hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote: There are many PhD's in economics, some with Nobel Prizes, that agree minimum wage laws and unemployment benefits drive up the cost of production. This is so easy to see that it is amazing anyone would think differently. If minimum wage laws do not create unemployment, why not raise it to $100 per hour, or even better, $500 per hour? When China dumped their Soviet style, state planned economy for a free market approach, they destroyed small manufacturing here in the US, simply because to comply with the restrictive laws here is too expensive to remain competitive. Many see high-cost government regulation as being benign, a help to the poor people. I see it differently. A 16 year-old kid could get real world experience de-tasseling corn or planting tomatoes - that is - if the government would allow him to work for a realistic wage. It is illegal for this kid to work for $6 per hour, even if he wants to. He is denied this experience, an experience for more valuable that much of the crap he gets from government schools. I would see it very hard to be objective about the question, More or less government, when one makes their living from taxes collected by the government which uses the threat of prison to get the loot. On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:43 PM, Weinzierl, Richard A weinz...@illinois.edumailto:weinz...@illinois.edu wrote: At the risk of being just another university person weighing in on this, I agree with David's points. Jimmy Buffet said it well ... The gods' honest
Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?
Dave, You are absolutely right. I got interested in horticulture when I was 12-13 and worked nights filling steel egg cans, (which formally held egg whites) with diesel and sawdust. These were used to prevent frost in the orange groves near where I grew-up. I then helped fire these things up at 4-5 in the morning. I can't remember if or what I was paid. At 14, I worked in a gas station/country store 13.5 hours per day 7 days stocking shovels, servicing cars, etc. I was making 70 cents per hour. My next job at 15 (these were summer jobs) was doing all kinds of jobs in a ornamental plant nursery. I mostly fulled weeds but asked 1000 questions and there I learned how to propagate by cuttings, build a timed mist system, etc. These were the best days of my life, and I learned a lot about working with plants. These experiences helped me a huge amount. I'm sure the people I worked for could have been sighted for all kinds of child labor law infractions. Others could have claimed I was being abused or taken advantage of. The fact is, I would have worked in that nursery for nothing. The lady who owned the place taught me about the mystery of plants. Her lessons and attitude were more valuable to me than almost anything I learned later in high school. Minimum wage laws are really not the problem. $8 or so per hour is not that expensive for most small farmers (like me). And in fact, I have always started my employees far above the minimum wage. The problem is the regulations and the expense of their implementation. There are thousands of local, state and federal laws. 3M or Ford can hire attorneys, lobbyists, and compliance experts to keep up with it all, and this expense might be 2% of their cost of production. For a small business, this is impossible. There is also fear. I've owned business since I was 20 years old. They were all successful. I had a pottery with 20 employees, a retail store in Los Angeles, two photography studios, etc. I can tell you right now that I will not hire a single person in this political climate. The implementation and enforcement of law is becoming arbitrary. We are quickly abandoning the concept of a nation of laws and turning to a nation of fiat enforcement. This is huge. It is easy to spot a new business, but impossible to know how many business did not open because of this fear. Today, a kid busting his ass for $5 per hour would live better than the King of England did 400 years ago. See this: http://sanctionfreedom.com/?p=93 and a quote from How to Create High Unemployment in Five Easy Steps Raise the working age and combine that with numbers one, two and three and you will have created unemployment for millions of young people. These kids need the work badly, not only because of the money, but because of the experience. It is embarrassing to watch a twenty year-old man who can’t stock a shelf or use a shovel but that is exactly what is happening in America. Less teenagers are working, they have less practical skills and they are degrading the American workforce and therefore American competitive energy. Most of these teenagers are experts at video games but know nothing about how to chop firewood or plant seed corn. Many of them are pathetic idiots. This culture of incompetence creates a generalized laziness in the workforce. This imbedded ethos further increases unemployment, in that, businesses depending on a competent workforce will be less competitive in world markets. On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 6:05 AM, David A. Rosenberger da...@cornell.edu wrote: I agree with you, Hugh, that government regulations are rarely “benign”, and child labor restrictions that prevent young teenagers from gaining work experience are one of my pet peeves. Much of what I learned about agriculture, work ethic, and the business world has come from growing up on a farm and then working on another farm and at farm markets from ages 11 to 16. However, experience has shown that, in the absence of laws, ruthless employers will not pay $6/hr or perhaps even 60 cents per hour if they can get a needy labor force to work for 6 cents per hour (after deducting meals and housing). Our country decided the slavery issue in a bloody war many years ago, and most of us have no desire to return to that era. While minimum wage laws may drive up the price of production when a product is consider in the absence of externals, the issue is less clear of one considers the social costs of low wages. If the government does not provide any support for those at the low end of the social scale, then they have no choice but to attempt living via criminal enterprises and costs for guarding business investments increase. In some countries and some eras, farmers have been unable to prevent theft of crops unless they posted guards around the fields 24 hr/day. Would that be less expensive than paying minimum wages? Obviously not all crime is caused by poverty, and our society already has more than
Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?
Well-spoken Dave. My work experiences on farms from 7 on up were instrumental in my understanding the real world. I wish many more of our youth would have such an experience. I hope we can work together as Americans to contribute to a solution to the problems we face. The alternative is worse. Bill William H. Shoemaker Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist University of Illinois wshoe...@illinois.edumailto:wshoe...@illinois.edu From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of David A. Rosenberger [da...@cornell.edu] Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 8:05 AM To: Apple-crop discussion list Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China? I agree with you, Hugh, that government regulations are rarely “benign”, and child labor restrictions that prevent young teenagers from gaining work experience are one of my pet peeves. Much of what I learned about agriculture, work ethic, and the business world has come from growing up on a farm and then working on another farm and at farm markets from ages 11 to 16. However, experience has shown that, in the absence of laws, ruthless employers will not pay $6/hr or perhaps even 60 cents per hour if they can get a needy labor force to work for 6 cents per hour (after deducting meals and housing). Our country decided the slavery issue in a bloody war many years ago, and most of us have no desire to return to that era. While minimum wage laws may drive up the price of production when a product is consider in the absence of externals, the issue is less clear of one considers the social costs of low wages. If the government does not provide any support for those at the low end of the social scale, then they have no choice but to attempt living via criminal enterprises and costs for guarding business investments increase. In some countries and some eras, farmers have been unable to prevent theft of crops unless they posted guards around the fields 24 hr/day. Would that be less expensive than paying minimum wages? Obviously not all crime is caused by poverty, and our society already has more than enough crime even with minimum wage laws in place. My point is that the straight-line assumption that reducing wages reduces costs is overly simplistic because it ignores the complexity of society and the unexpected costs of “externals” that impact every business enterprise in a destabilized society. I am currently on a trip during which my wife and I have driven nearly 2000 miles through PA, OH, MI, IN, IL, WI, and MN. It appears to me that the interstate highway system is is worse condition now than at anytime since I began driving 51 years ago. We have saved a lot of taxes by delaying maintenance on highways and bridges, but as a result, all of us are paying more for wear on our cars, delays due to slow traffic, and perhaps even increases in accidents attributable to poor roads. If the current trend continues, apple growers will soon be obliged to ship apples only in trucks that have air-cushion suspension because I suspect the rough highways will bruise apples riding to market in trucks just as much as they bruise my butt riding in a mid-size car. The need for a public highway system, along with numerous other government “services”, illustrates why a functional government and taxation system are essential for a civilized society. There is certainly plenty of government waste that should be eliminated, but I suspect that most of that “waste” is actually going to the wealthy (think lobbyists, beltway bandits, defense contractors, farm subsidies) rather than to the welfare segment of our society. Dave Rosenberger, Professor Emeritus Dept. of Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology Cornell’s Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528 Office: 845-691-7231Cell: 845-594-3060 http://blogs.cornell.edu/plantpathhvl/blog-2014/ On Aug 16, 2014, at 2:35 AM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.commailto:hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote: There are many PhD's in economics, some with Nobel Prizes, that agree minimum wage laws and unemployment benefits drive up the cost of production. This is so easy to see that it is amazing anyone would think differently. If minimum wage laws do not create unemployment, why not raise it to $100 per hour, or even better, $500 per hour? When China dumped their Soviet style, state planned economy for a free market approach, they destroyed small manufacturing here in the US, simply because to comply with the restrictive laws here is too expensive to remain competitive. Many see high-cost government regulation as being benign, a help to the poor people. I see it differently. A 16 year-old kid could get real world experience de-tasseling corn or planting tomatoes -
