Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
[2020-01-06 16:48:48 -0300] Giancarlo Razzolini: > I'm moving this to staff@, please stop replying on a-d-p. Doing dirty laundry > in public is not necessary. And I'm moving this back to arch-dev-public because most staff aren't concerned with posting news items. Besides, there's nothing secret about this and I don't believe in hiding policy discussions out of the public eye. > For making that argument, you must first demonstrate that the news *wasn't* > used responsibly or there was any abuse of any kind. My reply was only to your suggestion that "everything should be written down". For clarity, let me recall how the conversation went: - Allan: Do we really need to write down everything? - Giancarlo: Yes, we do. - Me: No, we don't. As you can see I expressed no opinion on whether the latest news item was responsible. But since you ask, I think that question is moot since it's already been posted. However I deeply deplore that it was not discussed beforehand on arch-dev-public first. > Also, you're implying that this particular news entry wasn't thought through, > when in fact I can preset mounts of evidence to the contrary. Just a look at > the > logs for #archlinux-tu for the 3th and 4th will tell you that. I don't have access to #archlinux-tu. Even if I did, I would not have been constantly monitoring the channel during the 3th and the 4th. What I don't understand is why you don't advocate the use of a medium of communication that encompasses both devs and TUs and allows people in different timezones or with different schedules to contribute. > If we are going to start *punishing* people, you damn right we *need* > guidelines for it. I strongly disagree. We don't need rules and we don't need punishments. We just entrust staff members with powers and expect them to use said powers responsibly. If they don't, we discuss on a case-by-case basis whether to strip them of the power they abused. Cheers. -- Gaetan signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
[2020-01-05 21:27:19 -0300] Giancarlo Razzolini via arch-dev-public: > Em janeiro 5, 2020 21:04 Allan McRae via arch-dev-public escreveu: > > > > Do we really need to write down everything? Have we reached a point in > > the distro where common sense has stopped? Why would an announcement > > that affects the whole distro not be run past all team members by default? > > > > Yes, we do. Specially if we are talking about punishment, which clearly is the > case here. I have seen drafts being discussed on arch-dev only too, and we > never > involved staff members on them. We have to have this written somewhere. No, we don't. We should be able to entrust devs and TUs with powerful tools and assume they'll use them responsibly. Our distro is lost if being a dev or TU is about following a guidebook. Anyone could have noticed the many threads on arch-dev-public discussing news post proposals, and anyone could also have refrained from pressing the "add new post" button on archweb before thinking this through... Obviously everyone thinks their news post is benign, but you wouldn't push packages directly to [core], would you? Same logic applies here. Since it appears not everyone can do the above, I must agree with Allan: there must be some moderation in place for news posts... Cheers. -- Gaetan signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
Em janeiro 5, 2020 21:04 Allan McRae via arch-dev-public escreveu: My apologies. I believed this had been covered on the mailing list and I am told it was only on IRC, and never passed on to the TU channel, which I will accept as an excuse despite everyone(?) involved but the poster being on both channels... It indeed never crossed to -tu. But I should have told Robin to send the draft to a-d-p, my bad. Do we really need to write down everything? Have we reached a point in the distro where common sense has stopped? Why would an announcement that affects the whole distro not be run past all team members by default? Yes, we do. Specially if we are talking about punishment, which clearly is the case here. I have seen drafts being discussed on arch-dev only too, and we never involved staff members on them. We have to have this written somewhere. Regards, Giancarlo Razzolini pgpQ0ipGSHO1u.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
On 6/1/20 9:12 am, Giancarlo Razzolini wrote: > Em janeiro 5, 2020 19:25 Allan McRae via arch-dev-public escreveu: >> >> Read the original message and not the partial quote that you made. I >> explicitly said there was an exception for --overwrite type posts. >> >> But any restriction being made on posting due to not posting drafts to >> the list would be complete. >> > > Hi Allan, > > I think you're overreacting (again) for something that's not properly > coded anywhere. > And, the last time this was discussed, I have talked about cases of news > that couldn't > be brought on a-d-p for discussion. We have other places to discuss > those (staff@), but > still, until we have *clear* guidelines about this, let's not rush to > implement anything. My apologies. I believed this had been covered on the mailing list and I am told it was only on IRC, and never passed on to the TU channel, which I will accept as an excuse despite everyone(?) involved but the poster being on both channels... > I have proposed a news entry regarding zstd, Robin did the statistics > and we've discussed this > for 2 days on #archlinux-tu. If you're looking for somebody to blame, > look no further. Take away > my news posting rights (you'll have to also take away my archweb admin > rights in this case). > > And let's properly codify this ok? Because it's not codified anywhere. I > could've asked Robin > to send an email to a-d-p, but most of the work we've done on the draft > was on a pad. This was > reviewed by quite a few people. I asked Robin to do it, because since > they pushed zstd, they > should've also be the ones doing the news entry. But I would do it > myself this week, if they > didn't. Do we really need to write down everything? Have we reached a point in the distro where common sense has stopped? Why would an announcement that affects the whole distro not be run past all team members by default? Allan
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
Em janeiro 5, 2020 19:25 Allan McRae via arch-dev-public escreveu: Read the original message and not the partial quote that you made. I explicitly said there was an exception for --overwrite type posts. But any restriction being made on posting due to not posting drafts to the list would be complete. Hi Allan, I think you're overreacting (again) for something that's not properly coded anywhere. And, the last time this was discussed, I have talked about cases of news that couldn't be brought on a-d-p for discussion. We have other places to discuss those (staff@), but still, until we have *clear* guidelines about this, let's not rush to implement anything. I have proposed a news entry regarding zstd, Robin did the statistics and we've discussed this for 2 days on #archlinux-tu. If you're looking for somebody to blame, look no further. Take away my news posting rights (you'll have to also take away my archweb admin rights in this case). And let's properly codify this ok? Because it's not codified anywhere. I could've asked Robin to send an email to a-d-p, but most of the work we've done on the draft was on a pad. This was reviewed by quite a few people. I asked Robin to do it, because since they pushed zstd, they should've also be the ones doing the news entry. But I would do it myself this week, if they didn't. Regards, Giancarlo Razzolini pgp4FyQvxlNmQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
Excerpts from Allan McRae via arch-dev-public's message of January 5, 2020 23:27: After the base metapackage pile of crap that was posted, I (and others) reminded everyone of the process that had been held for years. The response was complaints that this process was not followed recently, to which we pointed at the arch-dev-public mailing list post for multiple non-trivial news entries. Only simple "--overwrite" type posts have not been posted on arch-dev-public. Where was this reminding done? Because the only thing I can find about it is logs from #archlinux-dev. Can't find anything announced on any of the mailing lists nor in #archlinux-tu. -- Sincerely, Johannes Löthberg :: SA0DEM pgpJlYaHGjpe9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
On 6/1/20 8:04 am, Morten Linderud via arch-dev-public wrote: > On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 07:53:21AM +1000, Allan McRae via arch-dev-public > wrote: >> Following the roll out of the base metapackage, and its poorly written >> news post, we agreed that all new posts should have a draft posted to >> arch-dev-public. > > Wait, where was this agreed? I heard something about all drafts should be > headed > for arch-dev, but this hasn't been announced nor discussed anywhere. > > Are the TUs missing from the loop here? > After the base metapackage pile of crap that was posted, I (and others) reminded everyone of the process that had been held for years. The response was complaints that this process was not followed recently, to which we pointed at the arch-dev-public mailing list post for multiple non-trivial news entries. Only simple "--overwrite" type posts have not been posted on arch-dev-public. This is not new - it has been the standard for many, many years - spanning from before I was around the distro. Allan
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
On 6/1/20 8:17 am, Morten Linderud via arch-dev-public wrote: > On Sun, Jan 05, 2020 at 11:10:17PM +0100, Bartłomiej Piotrowski via > arch-dev-public wrote: >> On 05/01/2020 23.04, Morten Linderud via arch-dev-public wrote: >>> On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 07:53:21AM +1000, Allan McRae via arch-dev-public >>> wrote: Following the roll out of the base metapackage, and its poorly written news post, we agreed that all new posts should have a draft posted to arch-dev-public. >>> >>> Wait, where was this agreed? I heard something about all drafts should be >>> headed >>> for arch-dev, but this hasn't been announced nor discussed anywhere. >>> >>> Are the TUs missing from the loop here? >>> >> >> If you look at the non-trivial news items, you can easily correlate them >> with drafts posted to arch-dev-public. > > You are writing about non-trivial news items, but Allan is writing explicitly > about *all* news items. There is a disconnect here, I'm not sure what has been > decided. Read the original message and not the partial quote that you made. I explicitly said there was an exception for --overwrite type posts. But any restriction being made on posting due to not posting drafts to the list would be complete. Allan
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
On Sun, Jan 05, 2020 at 11:10:17PM +0100, Bartłomiej Piotrowski via arch-dev-public wrote: > On 05/01/2020 23.04, Morten Linderud via arch-dev-public wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 07:53:21AM +1000, Allan McRae via arch-dev-public > > wrote: > >> Following the roll out of the base metapackage, and its poorly written > >> news post, we agreed that all new posts should have a draft posted to > >> arch-dev-public. > > > > Wait, where was this agreed? I heard something about all drafts should be > > headed > > for arch-dev, but this hasn't been announced nor discussed anywhere. > > > > Are the TUs missing from the loop here? > > > > If you look at the non-trivial news items, you can easily correlate them > with drafts posted to arch-dev-public. You are writing about non-trivial news items, but Allan is writing explicitly about *all* news items. There is a disconnect here, I'm not sure what has been decided. -- Morten Linderud PGP: 9C02FF419FECBE16 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
On 05/01/2020 23.04, Morten Linderud via arch-dev-public wrote: > On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 07:53:21AM +1000, Allan McRae via arch-dev-public > wrote: >> Following the roll out of the base metapackage, and its poorly written >> news post, we agreed that all new posts should have a draft posted to >> arch-dev-public. > > Wait, where was this agreed? I heard something about all drafts should be > headed > for arch-dev, but this hasn't been announced nor discussed anywhere. > > Are the TUs missing from the loop here? > If you look at the non-trivial news items, you can easily correlate them with drafts posted to arch-dev-public. The main page isn't a personal website. New posts should – and have been – reviewed, and that's what this mailing list is for. Bart
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
On 1/5/20 11:04 PM, Morten Linderud via arch-dev-public wrote: > On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 07:53:21AM +1000, Allan McRae via arch-dev-public > wrote: >> Following the roll out of the base metapackage, and its poorly written >> news post, we agreed that all new posts should have a draft posted to >> arch-dev-public. > > Wait, where was this agreed? I heard something about all drafts should be > headed > for arch-dev, but this hasn't been announced nor discussed anywhere. > > Are the TUs missing from the loop here? > I feel the same. I got prompted to write (and publish) the post by grazzolini & others. I saw that some people were discussing this, but it wasn't clear whether this was now established, especially given that i had asked several team members for confirmation before posting this - who gave me the OK. I think you're jumping the gun here, Allan. If this rule is supposed to be applied, it needs to be clearly announced. I would not have deliberately bypassed this... -- Rob (coderobe) O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 07:53:21AM +1000, Allan McRae via arch-dev-public wrote: > Following the roll out of the base metapackage, and its poorly written > news post, we agreed that all new posts should have a draft posted to > arch-dev-public. Wait, where was this agreed? I heard something about all drafts should be headed for arch-dev, but this hasn't been announced nor discussed anywhere. Are the TUs missing from the loop here? -- Morten Linderud PGP: 9C02FF419FECBE16 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[arch-dev-public] Restricting ability to post news items
Hi all, Following the roll out of the base metapackage, and its poorly written news post, we agreed that all new posts should have a draft posted to arch-dev-public. There was a potential exclusion for trivial --overwrite posts [1]. This was followed for the Xorg update. It was not followed for the zstd update. Given people have shown an inability to follow simple instructions, I am proposing a restriction on the ability to make news posts. This can either be a bulk restriction now, or just removing anybody who does not follow the rule from ever making a news post again. Allan [1] and why have we had so many missing library symlinks lately... surely checkpkg detects all the missing symlinks compared to previous packages.
