Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

> On Mar 11, 2022, at 1:25 PM, Mike Burns wrote: > > Are you saying that because investors could buy more addresses (through > demonstrating to ARIN utilization on operating networks) that would raise > IPv4 purchase prices? Because they would add demand to the transfer market? > I’m

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Hi Scott, Thank you, I wrote a response to your initial post that centered on the market and the current leasing returns, which I would put at roughly a 12% rental return on investment, or 100 months of payments equals one address purchase. I would like to point out that prices in the

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Bill, If I run a network and qualify for an /18 right now, can I got to ARIN and lease one?   I must either buy one on the transfer market or lease one from a (non-ARIN) 3rd party. Your analogy makes some sense regarding previously allocated IPv4 space, but we are in exhaust.  This policy

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Bill, We can quibble about semantics, but let's go with your verbiage: If I run a network and qualify for an /18 right now, can I go to ARIN and lease one?   I must either pay someone to release their addresses to ARIN to lease to me or lease one from a (non-ARIN) 3rd party. And the

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

On 11/03/2022 14:56, Tom Fantacone wrote: Bill, We can quibble about semantics, but let's go with your verbiage: If I run a network and qualify for an /18 right now, can I go to ARIN and lease one?   I must either /pay someone to release their addresses to ARIN to lease to me/ or lease one

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Scott, the point is that we should not be spending much time and should dismiss such proposal because although it may not look like it is willing to change a fundamental thing about IP address usage based on justification, something that doesn't require to much debate such obvious it is.

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Hi Brian, I am not understanding. Can you be more clear on whose costs are increased by this policy exactly? Are you saying that because investors could buy more addresses (through demonstrating to ARIN utilization on operating networks) that would raise IPv4 purchase prices? Because

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Hi Brian, But the addresses will be used to build and operate networks, or they could not be used as justification. Where are the cost and fairness issues? Even if a lessee could justify a purchase, that doesn’t mean they can afford a purchase. Which is fairer, to deny them addresses or

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

+1 I support this as well Steven Ryerse President srye...@eclipse-networks.com | C: 770.656.1460 100 Ashford Center North | Suite 110 | Atlanta, Georgia 30338 [A picture containing drawing Description automatically

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Hi Bill, I understand there are ways to effectively circumvent ARIN policy through legal relationships. But it's just simpler to create a thin VPN or to operate out of the RIPE RIR. My point is that ARIN policy doesn't prevent leasing, it only restricts lessors to incumbent holders and thwarts

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

It seems that lots of people oppose this policy based on their assumptions about what it will do to the economics of the IP address transfer market, but no one is making those assumptions explicit or describing what exactly they think would happen if it were passed. Right now

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

I am opposed to this proposal. In fact it sound like a debauchery to try to permit leased addresses to be a valid reasons for justifying any type of allocation. It is not in ARIN interest to facilitate something that not only is essentially against the fundamental of IP usage and

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Wrong. You don't lease addresses from ARIN. You receive them for used based on the justified needs and you pay an administrative fee to support the services to keep all the infrastructure necessary for the ecosystem that keeps track of those resources remain operational. This has nothing to

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 6:25 AM Mike Burns wrote: > Are you against all renting of IPv4 addresses, and if so, why? > Or are you against only non-incumbent owners renting space? Hi Mike, I would suggest that if you really want to lease addresses without infrastructure there are lawful and

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Hi Joe, Setting up a thin VPN in not heavy lifting. This policy continues to only allow usage on operational networks to function as justification for purchase. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: Joe Provo Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 7:12 PM To: Mike Burns Cc: William Herrin

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

I support the proposal as written. It facilitates the provision of a valuable service to a large swath of the ARIN community, namely the ability of network operators with an operational need to lease IPv4 addresses from 3rd party lessors at a fraction of the cost of purchasing those

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Hi Bill, I am aware of the phrase and its freighted use. But you are using it here as an argument against a policy that would facilitate the renting of IPv4 addresses by entities other than incumbent address owners or RIPE members. So I ask for more clarity regarding the application of the

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Mike, IMHO Allowing for rent-seeking behavior increases the cost to those who are actually building and operating networks, therefore further limiting the availability of Internet number resources available for those with less funds to purchase them. — Brian > On Mar 11, 2022, at 10:09 AM,

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:14 AM Tom Fantacone wrote: > Bill, regarding your point "B", by providing IPv4 leasing, these 3rd parties > are certainly performing a function that ARIN does not. Oh really? ARIN doesn't charge an annual fee to retain the IP address assignment they've made? And they

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

Speaking for myself, I oppose this policy if this is removed: “...entities building and operating networks…”. If you are not building and operating networks, what are the resources needed for? This policy seems to oppose the fair and impartial dissemination of Internet number resources for

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:40 AM Tom Fantacone wrote: > If I run a network and qualify for an /18 right now, can I got to ARIN and > lease one? I must either buy one on the transfer market Tom, I think you misunderstand the transfer market. You don't buy addresses on the transfer market. You

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

The justification that one cannot pay for something (make a proper Transfer as expected under the current policy) doesn't seem to be a valid justification to remove a essential requirement for justifying need to usage of those resources that don't belong to them. The principle of usage

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

I disagree. The addresses are useless unless they ALSO purchase access and routing from another network operator. How is this cheaper? It is and always has been allowed to lease bundled access of addresses and connectivity from a LIR, without any expense for purchasing those addresses. On

Re: [arin-ppml] Revised and Retitled - Draft Policy ARIN-2021-6: Permit IPv4 Leased Addresses for Purposes of Determining Utilization for Future Allocations

On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 10:38 AM Mike Burns wrote: > I understand there are ways to effectively circumvent ARIN policy through > legal relationships. Hi Mike, You misunderstand me. The legal relationship I described does not circumvent ARIN policy. Rather the opposite - it brings your desired