Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification As regards studdies and data, my actual point was not whether women were! discriminated against in economic terms because of requiring maternity leave (a fact Im still not convinced on), but whether it would be right! for an employer to do so.Well my point was quite the opposit. My argument was not at all concerned with the morality of the issue, but rather the cause and effect of regulations.Im not sure what the legal framework is where you are, but I would say here in Ontario, there is some regulation of sorts, in addition to the insentive system I described above.I know not what you speak of when you mention this amorphus god of probability.indeed it always amuses me that those who most tout the virtues of free enterprise and competition are those who bennifit from the system most, and utterly forget about everyone else.Have you ever noticed theres actually a significant number of working class people who tout the virtue of free enterprize and competition? Either way, that statement is generally true about any school of thought; Those who benefit from it the most are the ones who most tout its virtue. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201428#p201428 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Perhaps that class opinion thing is more common in the states Theo, sinse I know in America for some reason there is a lot of anti government and anti centralization sentimentt. Less so in the Uk, one reason why the labour party has fallen down so much in recent elections due to their crazy privatization and sell outs to larger foreign companies of centralized services in Britain. The reason I mention the fact that those who bennifit from a system are those who tout its virtues, is frequently I find so called universal truths, especially the ones progressing from a so called evolutionary standpoint, are always put forward by those who most bennifit. Nobody says its the survival of the fittest but Im unfit to survive, well actually nobody accept Nietzsche, and he still thought his own philosophy and thinking was fittest to dominate he just was aware of his own physical frailty.Ive been thinking about this question recently beca use it seems so much in moral, political and even social and economic thought evolution is given as this universal, catch all explanation by those in power to insure the maintenance of their power, a sort of semi mystical teleology which serves almost as God did in previous centuries things are like this because of evolution! this isnt to say evolution doesnt exist, only that evolution is a fairly symple process merely stating that in any situation those individuals of a species best suited to survive and reproduce in their environment will do so, end of story. it doesnt imply The strongest will survive or the weak must be routed out or competition is natural, indeed according to one paper I read by a chap called Dicky empathy and cooperation were the only practical things humans have over other species in a purely biological sense.I am thus rather suspicious of this strangely functional ist credo, in both economic and social terms sinse it seems more often than not extremely self serving under a borrowed guise of scientific authority, I wonder how much the people in China working 18 hours a day for around 10 pence which is just enough for a subsistance level of life believe in the virtues of competition Bottom line, all this Free market competition is natural which often serves to chissle disabled people out of jobs seems to be more often than not a load of self interested balls! and in discussing disability or indeed any other condition we should try to consider what is right! not falls in with some sort of false evolutionary ethic. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201430#p201430 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification for example my brother was refused a job because the firm in question believed he couldnt get to work without a car, despite the fact they were on the buss route.Given all my anti-regulation rambling, I would like to point out this is an area where I think the government can be no doubt effective in assisting our cause. Good public awareness campaigns can work wonders.Im coming to the conclusion that any form of human society as a collective endeaver is pretty pointless, sinse the human race is intrinsically flawed when it comes to any sort of cooperative endeavour.Theres a quote by Winston Churchill that I was thinking of just later on this evening. democracy is the worse form of governance weve ever known, besides of course those other systems we occasionally try from time to time. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201429#p201429 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Perhaps that class opinion thing is more common in the states Theo, sinse I know in America for some reason there is a lot of anti government and anti centralization sentimentt. Less so in the Uk, one reason why the labour party has fallen down so much in recent elections due to their crazy privatization and sell outs to larger foreign companies of centralized services in Britain. The reason I mention the fact that those who bennifit from a system are those who tout its virtues, is frequently I find so called universal truths, especially the ones progressing from a so called evolutionary standpoint, are always put forward by those who most bennifit. Nobody says its the survival of the fittest but Im unfit to survive, well actually nobody accept Nietzsche, and he still thought his own philosophy and thinking was fittest to dominate he just was aware of his own physical frailty.Ive been thinking about this question recently beca use it seems so much in moral, political and even social and economic thought evolution is given as this universal, catch all explanation by those in power to insure the maintenance of their power, a sort of semi mystical teleology which serves almost as God did in previous centuries things are like this because of evolution! this isnt to say evolution doesnt exist, only that evolution is a fairly symple process merely stating that in any situation those individuals of a species best suited to survive and reproduce in their environment will do so, end of story. it doesnt imply The strongest will survive or the weak must be routed out or competition is natural, indeed according to one paper I read by a chap called Dicky empathy and cooperation were the only practical things humans have over other species in a purely biological sense.I am thus rather suspicious of this strangely functional ist credo, in both economic and social terms sinse it seems more often than not extremely self serving under a borrowed guise of scientific authority, I wonder how much the people in China working 18 hours a day for around 10 pence which is just enough for a subsistance level of life believe in the virtues of competition Bottom line, all this Free market competition is natural which often serves to chissle disabled people out of jobs seems to be more often than not a load of self interested ballls! and in discussing disability or indeed any other condition we should try to consider what is good! not falls in with some sort of false evolutionary ethic. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201430#p201430 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification The arguement in terms of prophet is a bit more stark there Cx2, though i dont disagree a lot of that risk and even more seriously legal responsability idea comes into it. The fact is, if a company believes (rightly or wrongly), that a disabled person is a less productive employee than a none disabled person, who are they going to employ?This is why education is important sinse currently we have none disabled employers who know nothing about disability making judgement of the capcities of a disabled person, judgements which are often incorrect, or exist with a huge amount of cultural bias, for example my brother was refused a job because the firm in question believed he couldnt get to work without a car, despite the fact they were on the buss route.To be honest though, with how so few jobs now actually make use of a persons real abilities or individual aptitudes anyway, as opposed to just getting them to fill a dull repetitive function in a mu ch larger machine, Im less certain even this sort of education would work, sinse if companies are just looking for cogs anyway, (which most are), and disabled people wont fit.Really Im coming to the conclusion that any form of human society as a collective endeaver is pretty pointless, sinse the human race is intrinsically flawed when it comes to any sort of cooperative endeavour.At the moment I find myself thinking the best thing for creation would be a bit of planetary redecorating via asteroid, super virus etc and for us to give a nicer species a go. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201228#p201228 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification This kind of behaviour related to other people occurs to me. I mean I am, or I should be like an inspiration for some students, especially for my classmates. When I first enrolled at my public school, and I started studying and studying everyday, normally I would ask weather I could answer the questions that the teachers make, related to the lesson. We were in the very early days of my first year of high school, and many teachers used to say to other students, telling them why don’t you act like him? Look how he learns, studies and prepares the projects. I really didn’t like this kind of situation, and I didn’t say anything when teachers talked in that way to other students. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201259#p201259 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @Afrim, I can see that not beeing fun. Luckily in both of my mainstream experiences I escaped that sort of thing sinse both were good schools, though the biology teacher did say he found it interesting devising alternative ways of explaining bio chemistry to me, some of which he actually took on and did later, like explain the active transport of air into the lungs and the convertion of Oxygen from atom to ion and back again through Krebs cycle by physically walking me around the class room with a foot ball and tennis ball taped together to be the atom and Ion. That however was more about him! finding different ways of teaching through explaining them to me, than because I was said to be in some way exceptional, which is fare enough. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201287#p201287 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Teachers also in my public school used different methods to make me greatly understand what our school system included, in different subjects, such as biology, chemistry and others.I guess that that situation I mentioned above, and what the others had done before comes as a result of a lack of information and because they might not have seen blind people before.I really explained everything regarding how we work, how we interuct with our computer, how we learn, how we prepare projects, I did even make a demonstration of how the screen reader works, making them listen to jaws, while performing tasks, like navigating through different menus and browsing on the internet, but some of them still can’t understand how we do this and they got stunned when they see me reading my homeworks.I keep telling them that, if there isn’t anything which is inaccessible to us, I can’t learn it as far as there is not any way to do it, but if there are subjects like foreign language, history, philosophy and other stuff like that, there isn’t anything I can’t learn. My brain works like yours so I can memorize everything and talk the exam. So why can’t I learn it?When I deeply think about this, I honestly don’t find any prevention which denies us the right to learn everything which has nothing to do with vision. We have the same brain, don’t we? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201310#p201310 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification But is that quality of maternity leave caused by a desire for fairness or due to a cultural expectation that women should drop out of work in order to care for children? Sometimes you have to check these things, as they say correlation is not causation and the two may be symptoms of a third factor. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201174#p201174 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification I did check these things. I wish I still had the study, because as far as any type of studies, this was very comprehensive, looking at factors across multiple jurisdictions, and multiple companies.Anyway, my main argument was that human behavior is like a complex system, and trying to regulate it with laws can not just have unintended consequences, but can actually have the opposit effect from what was desired. Careful what you wish for when talking about the government regulating employers with respect to blind people. At a certain point, theyd become too afraid to hire us. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201182#p201182 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification I did check these things. I wish I still had the study, because as far as any type of studies, this was very comprehensive, looking at factors across multiple jurisdictions, and multiple companies.Anyway, my main argument was that human behavior is like a complex system, and trying to regulate it with laws can not just have unintended consequences, but can actually have the opposit effect from what was desired. I mentioned this example of maternity leave, because the general intention of having strict regulations around maternity leave is to help mothers with their career, but the empirical evidence strongly suggests it backfires. Careful what you wish for when talking about the government regulating employers with respect to blind people. At a certain point, theyd become too afraid to hire us. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201182#p201182 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Im afraid I dont agree on the regulation thing there theo, case in point, Black people and busses in America in the 1960s. As martin Luther King said, you cannot change peoples attitude by law, but you can legislate to regulate behaviour, and to be honest how is having companies afraid to hier blind people any different to the way things are now?Im not sure on this studdy you mention, but Ive seen slightly different evidence on the maternity leave thing in the Uk, which makes me wonder if this is cultural, after all I do know in America the attitude towardds the government is rather tdifferent to what it is elsewhere. Indeed its interesting hearing this given today a friend of mine who has just had a baby last september has just got an amazingly high powered job she will start in two months.If you sit around and say we cant regulate human behaviour and shouldnt try then basically you leave everything a s the status quo. This is exactly why in Britain until the late 19th century public sewers did not exist, sinse the governments attitude was basically You want it you do it yourself, the government shouldnt interfere and remember as marx said, that the pursuit of prophet does not in itself generate morality, (look at the treatment of workers in countries like Brazil, China and India with very little by way of minimum wage or labour regulations for proof of this). Of course having the power to affect some of the larger multinational coorporations is quite another matter. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201192#p201192 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @Dark,So what we need is something like Google Glass with an eye-contact app.It also has to describe the _expression_ of the person you are looking at and report any changes.It would also be nice to have a data base of all people so that the app can tell you who you are looking at by name.Then it could look them up on Facebook and tell you about them.Ive herd of a dating service that requires you to fill out a preference form and then gives you a wrist band that vibrates when you get close to anyone with similar characteristics. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201200#p201200 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Amusingly in reference to Darks point London only got public sewers because the smell one summer reached the houses of parliament and all the MPs found it unbearable. Up until that point effluent literally ran in the streets, the roads were actually built with stepping stones so you could cross without wading through the effluent. Without flushing toilets or running water people often simply emptied their chamber pots out of the window.Sometimes it really is down to the government to fix things, and often they need a royal kicking up the arse to get it done. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201199#p201199 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @Cx2, that is true. Its something of a historical irony that Edwin Chadwick was campaigning from the 1860s onwards for the government to install a sewer system, and getting no where until the weather lobbied on his behalf .eUnfortunately Phil, looking up details on facebook or the like is something which probably wont happen with all the paranoid fear of stalkers etc. With eye contact Im also not sure how well that would work given how instant eye contact is for sighted people, its not a case of you having to pick it up, it is a case of the sighted person looking for a similar eye contact sighted response from you, and whether an ap could give you quick enough information, plus whether you could learn to fake such a response Im not sure.Personally, Im of the opinion that the only way things will change is information abou t this conveyed to the sighted public, sinse frankly if sighted people were more educated about the fact that a blind person is not making eye contact because they are an untrustworthy, unsociable sort, but because they cant! things might improve significantly. Interestingly enough, I was having a similar conversation the other day with one of my mums friends who, apart from being an awsome fan of startrek, doctor who and other fun stuff, also runs the UKs disabled Canoeing division, (she had a couple go to the paralympics). We were comparing experiences and the fact that people in wheel chairs get better treatment, and one thing she came up with was the fact that a lot has to do with basic body symetry, ie, a person who was just! in a wheel chair but otherwise looked normal, or a person with say an artificial limb would get on far better than say someone with severe scoliosis, or a slightly twisted body etc as regards reactions from others. Ie , look like me or you dont exist! otherwise known as the human race is full of xenophobic bastardss! Can I please request a be transfer to another species? . URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201204#p201204 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @Cx2, that is true. Its something of a historical irony that Edwin Chadwick was campaigning from the 1860s onwards for the government to install a sewer system, and getting no where until the weather lobbied on his behalf .eUnfortunately Phil, looking up details on facebook or the like is something which probably wont happen with all the paranoid fear of stalkers etc. With eye contact Im also not sure how well that would work given how instant eye contact is for sighted people, its not a case of you having to pick it up, it is a case of the sighted person looking for a similar eye contact sighted response from you, and whether an ap could give you quick enough information, plus whether you could learn to fake such a response Im not sure.Personally, Im of the opinion that the only way things will change is information abou t this conveyed to the sighted public, sinse frankly if sighted people were more educated about the fact that a blind person is not making eye contact because they are an untrustworthy, unsociable sort, but because they cant! things might improve significantly. Interestingly enough, I was having a similar conversation the other day with one of my mums friends who, apart from being an awsome fan of startrek, doctor who and other fun stuff, also runs the UKs disabled Canoeing division, (she had a couple go to the paralympics). We were comparing experiences and the fact that people in wheel chairs get better treatment, and one thing she came up with was the fact that a lot has to do with basic body symetry, ie, a person who was just! in a wheel chair but otherwise looked normal, or a person with say an artificial limb would get on far better than say someone with severe scoliosis, or a slightly twisted body etc as regards reactions from others. Ie , look like me or you dont exist! otherwise known as the human race is full of xenophobic bastards! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201204#p201204 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @Cx2, that is true. Its something of a historical irony that Edwin Chadwick was campaigning from the 1860s onwards for the government to install a sewer system, and getting no where until the weather lobbied on his behalf .eUnfortunately Phil, looking up details on facebook or the like is something which probably wont happen with all the paranoid fear of stalkers etc. With eye contact Im also not sure how well that would work given how instant eye contact is for sighted people, its not a case of you having to pick it up, it is a case of the sighted person looking for a similar eye contact sighted response from you, and whether an ap could give you quick enough information, plus whether you could learn to fake such a response Im not sure.Personally, Im of the opinion that the only way things will change is information abou t this conveyed to the sighted public, sinse frankly if sighted people were more educated about the fact that a blind person is not making eye contact because they are an untrustworthy, unsociable sort, but because they cant! things might improve significantly. Interestingly enough, I was having a similar conversation the other day with one of my mums friends who, apart from being an awsome fan of startrek, doctor who and other fun stuff, also runs the UKs disabled Canoeing division, (she had a couple go to the paralympics). We were comparing experiences and the fact that people in wheel chairs get better treatment, and one thing she came up with was the fact that a lot has to do with basic body symetry, ie, a person who was just! in a wheel chair but otherwise looked normal, or a person with say an artificial limb would get on far better than say someone with severe scoliosis, or a slightly twisted body etc as regards reactions from others. Ie , look like me or you dont exist! otherwise known as the human race is full of xenophobic bastardss! Can I switch species please? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201204#p201204 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Theo wrote:I never meant to imply that regulation is never effective, merely that there are definiteexamples where it has the opposit effect to what was intended.When I said to be careful what you wish for, I merely meant to be werey of these unintended consequences. If an employer really doesnt want to hire a blind person, it could, with a fair degree of safety, fire the person for some official reason other than their blindness, and unless the employer blabs his mouth too much, thered be no way the person could prove they were fired due to their blindness.What you describe is actually the current situation, not some hypothetical future circumstance born out of some extra governmental intervention, indeed the sort of thing you describe as happening in Idaho with a subsidy to companies hiering disabled people is actually the sort of measure that should exist in more places.As regards studdies and data, my actual point was not whether women were! discriminated against in economic terms because of requiring maternity leave (a fact Im still not convinced on), but whether it would be right! for an employer to do so. Personally as I said I disagree on the regulation of behaviour, sinse to be brutally honest no regulation is what we currently have and the state of affairs we have all mentioned as being bad in this topic, ergo, something needs to be done, and simply relying on the amorphus god of prophetability to vaguely equalize everyone in the future will not work, indeed it always amuses me that those who most tout the virtues of free enterprise and competition are those who bennifit from the system most, and utterly forget about everyone else. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201222#p201222 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification There are two sides to profitability of course, one side being risk aversion to focus on a guaranteed income. Where companies are risk averse in this way that makes it all the harder for us simply because they see us as a risk. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201225#p201225 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Im afraid I dont agree on the regulation thing there theo, case in point, Black people and busses in America in the 1960s. As martin Luther King said, you cannot change peoples attitude by law, but you can legislate to regulate behaviour, and to be honest how is having companies afraid to hier blind people any different to the way things are now?Im not sure on this studdy you mention, but Ive seen slightly different evidence on the maternity leave thing in the Uk, which makes me wonder if this is cultural, after all I do know in America the attitude towardds the government is rather tdifferent to what it is elsewhere. Indeed its interesting hearing this given today a friend of mine who has just had a baby last september has just got an amazingly high powered job she will start in two months.If you sit around and say we cant regulate human behaviour and shouldnt try then basically you leave everything a s the status quo. This is exactly why in Britain until the late 19th century public sewers did not exist, sinse the governments attitude was basically You want it you do it yourself, the government shouldnt interfere and remember as marx said, that the pursuit of prophet is a none moral activity, does not in itself generate or encourage morality, (look at the treatment of workers in countries like Brazil, China and India with very little by way of minimum wage or labour regulations for proof of this). Of course having the power to affect some of the larger multinational coorporations is quite another matter. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201192#p201192 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification I never meant to imply that regulation is never effective, merely that there are definiteexamples where it has the opposit effect to what was intended.When I said to be careful what you wish for, I merely meant to be werey of these unintended consequences. If an employer really doesnt want to hire a blind person, it could, with a fair degree of safety, fire the person for some official reason other than their blindness, and unless the employer blabs his mouth too much, thered be no way the person could prove they were fired due to their blindness.If the hiring of blind people were regulated such that the employer were not allowed to fire the blind person for any reason, then certainly that person would keep their job, but that would hurt their reputation among their coworkers, who would be lead to believe that the blind person wasnt able to merit their job. Only certain actions can be regulated, not so much for attitudes. Too much government pitty c an lead others to think we are thuper special, and could result in them treating us less like equals.However,I do feel there are things the government could do that dont exactly require trying to regulate behavior. Here in Ontario, There is little pressure on companies to hire disabled people, but there are temporary positive insentives. The government will subsidise my salary for a few months to help offset the precieved risk an employer takes by hiring me. after 3-6 months, the government stops subsidising my salary, at which time I should have proved to my employer what I am actually able to do. This allows me to break misperceptions about my disability without the government forcing the hand of my employer.The study examined both american statistics and Swedish statistics. Thats part of the reason why I said it was so comprehensive. Im glad for your friend, and that shes able to defy the generalities, but shes still just a single datapoint on the graph. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201213#p201213 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Would you argue that it is right not to employ women because women are more likely to take maternity leave?Oddly enough, jurisdictions with very good maternity leave regulations tend to have fewer women in the workforce, and companies with good maternity leave benefits have fewer women at their top levels. Given this, Id say it might not be morally right to discriminate against a woman whos likely to take maternity leave soon, but I dont think the government should get involved in regulating anything as it would actually discourage hiring women. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=201100#p201100 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Even 2D games can in some cases be difficult or impossible to make accessible depending on the design in question, a focus on point and click interfaces leaves us out in the cold.Games which are playable by blind people are all well and good but I think the closest weve got so far is Zombies, Run since none of the other titles have had any real traction in the mainstream. Making a successful indie game is hard enough in the first place, making one with the initial design goal of being playable by VI players while also popular in the mainstream is even harder. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198575#p198575 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Regarding swamp, the graphics arent intended as a full representation of the enviornment anyway, it would be wrong to assume they were, they are more like a place holder blip meater, all the information is still sound based. Regarding big companies nfortunately people are correct, much as Id like some pressure from the government to force access I doubt that will happen however I am less certain on either indi games. A Dark room was universally praised and won many awards and contests, yet is pure text. There are movements in the gaming public away from major 3D graphics, particularly because there are segments of gamers who feel the big budget releases have gone into the teretory of all glitz and no go. It is to those sorts of people that games like Papasangre are intended to cater for. My issue with swamp was more that Swamp would! be playable by sighted people but people do not because that word blind is used. Ill also say that if games follow the same route as films and other forms of entertainment, then the tablet will see a rise in indi companies interested in audio, which indeed is happening. To be honest though I dont think the question of whether we will see more or less access in games in the future is quite as fundamental as the question of why sighted people dont perceive blind people as having an interest in games in the first place. After all contrast the amount of games on places like oneswitch and the amount of discussion on sites like game hippo, able gamers and retro remakes about games for motion impared or even colour blind gamers with the amount of discussion of audio or accessible text representative titles. Even Amir Rajan, the developer of A dark room said that he didnt even consider Blind game access until he recieved a tweat from someone on the subject. I find it interesting that people automatically assume that computer games and blind people dont mix, or dont really think of blind people at all where as other disabilities get such prominance in this area. Part of it is undoubtedly that video games has come to mean computer games of all sorts, and thus there is a standard linguistic problem there with the existance of games played either through audio or listening to screen readers speak text, I even remember one person from the forum who contacted a browser game developer who refused to believe that screen readers existed. That! is what I meant earlier by perceptions needing to change. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198586#p198586 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @Camlorn, Blackbird is correct on the games angle, especially as far as indi games go, there are a lot of smaller scale indi titles that dont have all those major 3D graphics but are popular nonetheless, equally look at the way companies who make audio dramas such as big finish an graffic audio have managed to make it. This was the theory behind games like papasangre and audio defense, and ineed The blind swordsman, games not made for the blind but which blind people could play My point however was not that such things existed, only that when you insert the word blind into anything, sighted people assume rightly or wrongly oh it is not for me ditto with all these societies and charities for the blind! Which as cx2 said often work like a money focus. On the economic angle, Im afraid my simple response would be well if the open market dictates that disabled people be misstreated in an unequal matte r, that shows that the open market needs regulation. There are arguements that disability is a more frequent state, that people live longer and develop more debilitating conditions, however fundamentally if society is unequal towards one part of the population then we need laws and standards to change that. Would you argue that it is right not to employ women because women are more likely to take maternity leave? Of course this depends upon having a strong enough government which is willing to actually intervine in matters of employmentwhich is quite a different matter.@Ggf, accept is a very odd word. On the level that that deaf/blind society use it, it sounds like accept means no longer worrying about, yet throughout history the same word has been used to mean no longer care about reduced circumstances. The Suffragettes were told to accept the place of women ie, shut up about getting votes. Equally, a person who is berea ved told to accept that she/he is gone means something else, means not living in the past. accept thus has rather different social and personal meanings, and before we talk about accepting disability we probably need to separate out what we mean, sinse on the one level we dont want people to say Well I accept that society treats me as not existing most of the time but on the other hand you wouldnt want a case where someone spent their life yearning to have normal vision and never learnt to do anything else with their time. Myself, I do think people need to accept in the emotional sense. Having a disability is a bastard, but it would be no use me spending my life wanting to be able to read print or drive a car. ON the other hand I dont see why I should accept! that most people ignore my existance or do not provide basic things like bus services that speak. Its a weerd balancing act an putting it all down to one word accept really doesnt help anyone, especially when this magical word is offered to society to effectively say hay, disability is not your problem URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198516#p198516 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification My point about Swamp specifically is that its below even those. My understanding is that enemies are dots, youre a circle, and thats kind of it.As for other games, sure, weve had a few examples. But I just dont see this taking off. What is needed to use them as a vehicle for this kind of message is something very mainstraem and also accessible. The people doing the mainstream stuff have basically no economic motivation to bother, especially since most of the stuff cant be converted-yes, even the indie stuff; we live in the age of 3 dimensions, and it is now barely harder to write a 3d game than it is to use a basic piece of CAD software. Thats what the frameworks are, now: CAD software (think paint plus a third dimension), a huge body of common code, and the ability to attach scripts. This is a nice pipe dream. It is not likely to happen on any scale that actually matters. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198529#p198529 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @camlornYes, commercial big budget companies wont add blind support on their own. Not now, not ever. The only way to get this done would be if the government would add subventions, tax cuts or similar incentives for doing so. But I dont see that happening either. At least not in the US where those games are made. We have to accept that.However, this is not the end of it. Such companies do have big incentive to allow modding and user created content. And they are interested that people play these games even when they are not at home in front of a console or PC. These two options combined may open opportunities where the community can create sight impaired friendly options to mainstream games. In the end however, even those opportunities will probably remain rare and there will never be the same amount of choice and options out there for a minority with special needs. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198534#p198534 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @Camlorn, I do totally agree that societys perceptions have a huge part to play in terms of disability, any disability and blindness in particular sinse so much information (written information etc), is conveyed visually, my point is just that the view which says disability is in itself a neutral state and its society that causes all of the problems just like being dark skinned or having a given accent is a neutral state is incorrect. i emphasise this point because the social theory of disability has got a lot of press, and advocacy, and is often a way in which people minimize the actual effort costs of disability irrispective of society. Separating out what society can! do and getting people to do it, from things which a disabled person just needs to live with is rather an important point. Regarding education, I wouldnt say the problem is education so much as perception. Most of us have experienced the at arms length reaction we get from any stranger, which can change quite abruptly, usually with the have you always been blind or how much can you see question. Its usually pretty obvious when this happens. Helpful as computers and information technology is, I wouldnt even say that makes a difference without the necessary perceptual shift. After all, what good is it offering to write the essay and print it out if youve already been put in a special class and arent being asked to do the same work as everyone else. Or, how helpful is it to have a game like Swamp which is universally accessible if most sighted users say oh that is for blind! people! And lets not forget the special school ebate and those blind people who wouldnt consider interacting with anyone who wasnt blind either. Wheel chair access is actually pretty difficult in a lot of circumstances, lack of parking spaces for cars, perfect ly normal public buildings that do not have ramps or require things on the second or third floor without lifts, narrow doorways, items on shelves too high etc, etc. Its just that in the public consciousness if a person with a wheel chair says I need access to so and so they are more likely to get a reasonable reasponse because being in a wheel chair is an acceptable form of disability, in most cases (and that is still most people in wheel chairs do encounter bad attitudes as well, just not as often). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198377#p198377 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @Camlorn, I do totally agree that societys perceptions have a huge part to play in terms of disability, any disability and blindness in particular sinse so much information (written information etc), is conveyed visually, my point is just that the view which says disability is in itself a neutral state and its society that causes all of the problems just like being dark skinned or having a given accent is a neutral state is incorrect. i emphasise this point because the social theory of disability has got a lot of press, and advocacy, and is often a way in which people minimize the actual effort costs of disability irrispective of society. Separating out what society can! do and getting people to do it, from things which a disabled person just needs to live with is rather an important point. Regarding education, I wouldnt say the problem is education so much as perception. Most of us have experienced the at arms length reaction we get from any stranger, which can change quite abruptly, usually with the have you always been blind or how much can you see question. Its usually pretty obvious when this happens. Helpful as computers and information technology is, I wouldnt even say that makes a difference without the necessary perceptual shift. After all, what good is it offering to write the essay and print it out if youve already been put in a special class and arent being asked to do the same work as everyone else. Or, how helpful is it to have a game like Swamp which is universally accessible if most sighted users say oh that is for blind! people! And lets not forget the special school ebate and those blind people who wouldnt consider interacting with anyone who wasnt blind either. Wheel chair access is actually pretty difficult in a lot of circumstances, lack of parking spaces for cars, perfect ly normal public buildings that do not have ramps or require things on the second or third floor without lifts, narrow doorways, items on shelves too high etc, etc. Its just that in the public consciousness if a person with a wheel chair says I need access to so and so they are more likely to get a reasonable reasponse because being in a wheel chair is an acceptable form of disability, in most cases (and that is still most people in wheel chairs do encounter bad attitudes as well, just not as often).My mum is on the national committee of the British Miatonic Dystrophy association, a condition of nurve and muscle degeneration which can cause everything from shortness of breath to full scale paralysis (my sister has it). And some of the levels of prejudice that have happened to people with the condition are just as bad as what a Vi person has experienced, such as in one case a solicitor, who had trouble walking an had slurred speech was dismissed without warning because a client thought he was drunk indeed that was quite ironic sinse my brother just ran into the same trouble over isual imparement (though there it was a blatant excuse). Then again, if you look at things like Dancing on wheels and the paralympics, it is true that this sort of things doesnt occur quite as often for people with mobility imparements, albeit it still does. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198377#p198377 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @camlornTo be the devils advocate for a second. Why should employers or society in general deal with and cater to sight impaired people and certain special needs? What would be the benefit? The market for example is already harsh and unforgiving to sighted people so it shouldnt surprise that it is downright hostile towards the impaired. As long as a disability interferes ever so slightly with the ability to do the stuff that is required for a job then the open market will undoubtedly favor normal people. I have a hard time seeing how this could change.On the other hand, computer technology and the internet specifically do create opportunities that werent available previously. Sight impaired people can educate themselves, partake in social interactions without being victim to prejudice and even earn money much easier than ever before. Yes, this does not change the problem one faces in public and in real life interactions but even so, more option s are more options. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198403#p198403 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Ah, yes. And actually youre not playing devils advocate. I do not expect this to change much. I never have.As for education and perception, I think that they go hand in hand for us; they feed on each other in a vicious cycle. Youre in the special class because it is presumed youre an idiot, but its presumed youre an idiot because everyone else was in the special class before and consequently came out without an education. It doesnt matter how smart you actually are, youre going to have to fight for a chance-unfortunately, however, this usually actually means your parents, and in lots of cases your parents buy into the stereotype too.As for swamp, Im sorry, but its not for the sighted. It can technically be played by the sighted, but few if any sighted people would actually want to do it. In addition to having sub-par graphics by todays standard and changing the p erspective of a first-person game to top-down, you have to give up a great many gameplay features to keep the game accessible. We are still in the era of the early 90s with our gaming technology at best. We will never leave this era because it is not possible to convey complex scenery through audio, use the existing tools (20 years or so of effort by thousands of people, and no we cant make them accessible), allow arbitrary rotations about any axis, and allow non-square environments. Sighted games do all of this and much more-the only place we can ever be equal is board and card games. While it would be good for our perception to have a game that the sighted could play, that only works if the sighted would actually want to play it, and we simply cant get there. Before someone mentions Audioquake, it should be noted that that is the prime example: it did allow sighted people, and sighted people always outperformed the blind by orders of magni tude. Were not going to be changing perceptions through games on a global scale any time soon, if ever. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198421#p198421 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification 1: While we will always be at a disadvantage I dont feel simply living with a disability is an achievement in itself. I do feel people like Steven Hawking who not only live but excel in spite of their disability are making their achievements all the more impressive but for the average person, no.2: I recently had an encounter with a woman who worked at the local blind society in a senior role, she was gushing at how marvellous I was simply for being able to use an iPhone and having been able to show her how to turn on the flashlight on her iPhone. If someone wants to compliment me for gods sake do it for something thats a genuine achievement, a 30 year old blind person using a mobile phone is not in this day and age an achievement and someone who worked for a blind society should have more sense than that. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198426#p198426 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @camlornI agree with you that sight impaired and sighted people will never play the same mass market game together on the same level. However, in the last 12 months the concept of asynchronous play has gained momentum. Primarily in the indie game space but it has also taken a hold in some mainstream gaming and will continue to expand. The concept of asynchronous multiplayer removes the notion that all players have to be on the same footing. This can be related to time or to action.Asynchronous play related to time is actually very popular in mobile games and simply means, that the players dont interact with each other live at the same time. This is a common concept for electronic board, card and tactics games that are turn based but also sees adoption in other novel concepts. I wont go into detail here because I think this is not the most exciting implementation for asynchronous play.There are now quite a few games out and more to come that introduc e the idea of people playing together the same game but doing entirely different stuff. The most prominent example is probably the commander mode in games like battlefield, natural selection. The soon to come the division is a first person shooter but allows people to join games with their smart phones and tablets. For them it isnt a first person shooter but they control drones, cameras and other technical equipment to help out the people fighting on the ground. They are able to join the same voice chat to coordinate and work together.Yes, this asynchronous play wasnt implemented for sight impaired people but for people who are not currently on their computer but still want to play with their friends. However, if these concepts keep gaining popularity I see no reason why it wouldnt be possible bring the sighted and sight impaired gaming community together. We just have to accept, that competitive multiplayer wont work if players of both gro ups are tasked with using the same skills on an equal footing. I dont think it is a challenge to design a game like that. The challenge is to convince the companies to design the asynchronous play in a way that would not only benefit mobile players but sight impaired players as well. Or at least allow for generous modding. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198437#p198437 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
2014-12-24
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : Green Gables Fan via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification One issue Ive noticed here is that many people in society see disability as being different. Society sees disability as a condition that prevents a person from doing something, while the person with said disability may or may not concur with that definition.Heres another exampleof how society perceives disability. If you heard someone say accept, they think you have overcome your disability and you have moved on. The truth is, you can never accept your disability. Sure, you can acknowledge that its there, you can cope with it, but you can never accept it. Its like a monster that keeps coming back to life, like Lupus, the big bad wolf, always there to greet you at every corner of your life.Heres a short passage from a speaker who was at a Deaf-blind conference.People from other states and countries were gathered there to learn about providing Deaf-Blind services in their areas. The center does this all th e time. They asked some of the students at the center to speak to the audience, just like I am doing now. Educate them about Deaf-Blindness. On this occasion, there was a young lady. I dont want to give her name because I still see her occasionally. She was there on stage, like I am now, speaking to an audience. She started out by telling them how hard it was growing up with disabilities. She went to a lot of trouble trying to deal with it. She was ready to despair. But then she decided to accept her disabilities. She overcame. And now she was happy and life was 10 good. And there was a 15-minute standing ovation. I wondered why she didnt have on her blue and red pajamas, with the big S on the front. People in the audience were saying things like, You ar e amazing. You are incredible. You should be president. And she was all smiles on the stage and blushing. Okay. Thats all fine and good. She can enjoy her moment on the stage. Well, let me finish the story. It was a few days later. I walked into the dormitory lobby at the center. I encountered this small group of people. There seemed to be a commotion. I couldnt tell what was going on so I had to walk up. I found the same Deaf-Blind woman. She was standing there in the middle of this group of staffers. The resident staff. She was crying her eyes out. Her mouth was open wide. She was yelling. Tears were pouring. It was a scene that would break your heart. And she wasnt letting anybody comfort her. I as ked one of the staff people, whats wrong? Why is she so upset? The answer, She is having trouble accepting her disabilities. No joke intended. Thats what they said. A few days before that, she was all about accepting. Then when the audience was gone, a whole different story. Thats the whole problem with that I accept speech. What does it mean? I ask you that question again. What does it 11 mean to accept? She just told everybody she accepted and now she cant accept. She is frustrated trying to deal with her problems and it just comes out in tears. Can you accept the reality of Deaf-Blindness? There is a better question. You see it doesnt go away when you say, I accept. It stays with you. You are on the stage for a few minutes. Why do you tell people you accept it or overcome? Because thats what society wants to hear. Thats what they approve of. Source: http://dotbug3.blogspot.com/I did a quick analysis of the terms. Osteo is bone, genesis is creation, imperfect is Latin for imperfect, so if you put it together you get an imperfection of bone formation. Im glad Im studying medicine so as to understand these things. I wonder what caused her death?When you say that someone is exceptional, youre probably think this person is unusual, which may be true, because people with certain disabilities may uphold certain attitues which many people would call, like for example, a bindism.When you objectify something, you make it seem less human so as to make it easier to make fun of, at last thats what I think. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198446#p198446 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Im inclined to think the woman in question was also under the expectation that she would say what the blind society wanted her to. Societies while ostensibly for the benefit of the people do try pretty hard to raise their profile, a higher profile means more funding and thus theoretically they can help more people. The trouble with that is it also leads people to think everything can be fixed just like that, the danger is its a more insidious form of problem than something like supposed gay cures yet its probably just as damaging since it invalidates the need for people to care about people with disabilities beyond throwing money at the charity in question. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198478#p198478 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Well the first thing I got from her video is that shes deep in the social theory of disability. This is the theory that says disability in and of itself is not a bad thing, its societys perceptions that make it so I dont personally agree, sinse as Zack said, even if! we had an absolutely perfect society, everything was labeled in braille, every game had audio, there would still be a lot of things which blind people took more time, trouble, and effort over than sighted people, therefore yes, disability is a bad thing even though society can make it more or less so. On the inspiration angle, well I agree with blackbird, people do compare themselves to others, that is something we do naturally as human beings. What bothers me however is this business of difference! As stella young said in the video, rather than people perceiving someone as a disability as being their teacher/doctor/neighbor, just guy down the street they are always disabled! with a capital D. The admiration that some people express is! genuine. It might be a little weerd, sometimes even uncomfortable, but it is genuine. What bothers me more however is that the admiration people express for The! disabled! is not the same as the admiration for say an athlete. Its always got this I admire them! quality to it, which is the problem that really needs sorting. I also do think this is a case where different categories of disability have slightly different social connotations, indeed Ive discussed this with a friend of mine who has juvenile arthritis and uses a wheel chair. She often says that she is surprised at peoples reactions, how helpful people happen to be, and how the admiration works. Indeed its a contrast that she has rarely been ignored! in the same way I have been myself. We are indeed at a point now where Wheel chair is sort of the accepted social flag of disability. Im not saying being in a wheel chair is a good thing. My mum is a physio therapist and Ive met a lot of people with paraplegia, quadraplegia and similar problems, (my sister for one, though she is functionally three), so I am aware of the issues, but in terms of social perception I do think there is a rather major difference, particularly in lines of communication. AFter all while a person in a wheel chair might have considerable trouble getting! into a public space, once there they can at least make eye contact and dont get treated as invisible. As I said, Im not saying being in a wheel chair is easy, but I do think there is a perceptual difference in social consciousness, after all there are plenty of films and tv programs with people in wheel chairs who are perfectly normal characters from Avatar the last air bender to crimelab, but I can think of very few with blind characters, and even fewer th at make those blind characters real people and dont just make them either sub human or super human with the main point of their character their blindness. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198201#p198201 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification I must say that the death of Stella Young or rather what followed is quite sad and tragic. If you read the various obituaries you can see the exact thing she was so outspoken against. She gets celebrated for her outstanding inspirational value despite the fact that she always said that she just sits there and talks which isnt of exceptional value. Everyone can do it. People seem to be incapable of not praising the dead unless they were unanimously regarded as bad humans.@zakc93The thing about being impaired by society is probably a reference to lowered expectations. If I talk to someone over the internet that has a PHD in computer technology I expect that person to be able to develop new software and create interesting new concepts. If I video chat with the same person and see that she/he is sitting in a wheelchair or is blind then it seems we inexplicably lower our expectations significantly to the point where we congratulate the person on being able to use the bathroom even though the disability and the impact on daily life may have nothing to do with the work they are capable of. This reflex probably leads to disabled people getting less chances to prove themselves which seems to be another tier of impairment that first needs to be overcome. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198200#p198200 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @Blackbird, with regards to your last point, evaluation of disability (any disability), by a none disabled person is a really! problematic area, and is the reason so many disabled people are out of work or passed over for positions of responsability sinse the none disabled person often assumes! they know what a disabled person is capable (or more often than not incapable), of. Again honest communication and changes in perception are the way forward here, though whether change is even possible Im not sure. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198203#p198203 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @DarkNow that you mention it, sight impaired but otherwise normal people in popular media are a very rare thing indeed. Id be interested to find out as to why this is. It is certainly true that eye contact is an important aspect of facial expressions and therefore social interactions but as a spectator observing people that interact with each other I dont see why this should be an issue. I think the problem is simply one of representation. Popular media usually divides the characters into two groups. Identifiable protagonists and exaggerated supporting characters. The protagonists are there for the viewer to identify with while the supporting characters are supposed to spice up the cast which is why the supporting characters usually lack depth and are reduced to one trait which is in turn exaggerated.A sight impaired person is very unlikely to be a protagonist because people would probably have a hard time to identify with this characters. I guess it is ea sier to imagine to be bound to a wheelchair than not being able to see. So sight impaired people most likely end up in the supporting cast and since they are usually one dimensional and exaggerated the being blind part is automatically their defining trait which doesnt make for a good character. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198218#p198218 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification @Blackbird, eye contact has a lot more to it than that. In many noisy and crowded environments (ie most pubs, clubs and places where a lot of younger adults interact), none verbal communication is pretty much the only! method possible due to ambient noise levels. Not making eye contact makes someone appear untrustworthy, dishonest, unsociable and generally a lot of other negative things at a distance, and thus blind people often end up alone in very many social situations. Im not sure if identification is the issue, sinse I can think of a lot of media with none identifyable characters as protagonists, so much as it is a morefundamental cultural idea of blindness as fundamentally changing what a person is, where as it is now mostly (though by no means universally), accepted that a person in a wheel chair is still reasonably human. There is a very interesting article somewhere on the offtopic room called why do we fear the blind which explores a lot of these sorts of questions and was an interesting read. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198276#p198276 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification It should also be noted that, in the specific case of blindness, even very basic education is new for us. People in wheel chairs or with any of a variety of physical ailments often do not need major accommodations. Im referring specifically to things like Braille that have to be invented out of whole cloth. I think that, at least as regards intelligence, were fighting an older stereotype that we couldnt overcome because others needed to invent things for us first. Basically, large numbers of people with disabilities could be effectively educated as soon as everyone should be educated became a thing, but blind people and others in similar situations are only now getting there (we certainly are not yet), and primarily because of the computer-an invention of the last 50 years. Couple this with the fact that humans are, as a whole, very visual beings who have difficulty even comprehending understanding basic concepts without seeing them and stir. Out comes the blind people are clueless idiots stereotype.I think that the message she was trying for is not that being disabled is okay if society makes it okay, but that being disabled can be dealt with if society makes it okay. Society has thus far failed to do this. Ask yourself this: if you had the educational opportunities of a sighted person, if people believed that you could do things and stopped telling you no for fear you would get hurt as a child, and if employers actually worked with us and didnt make snap judgements that we obviously cant even do basic things, how much better would blindness be? Id still want my sight, of course, but it would certainly not prey on me so much. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198312#p198312 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Inspiration or Objectification
Inspiration or Objectification Hello there,Ive just saw an interesting YouTube video about objectification and idealization of disabled people as inspirational spam. Stella Young who is giving the talk and died about two weeks ago related to her disability. She suffered from osteogenesis imperfecta also known as brittle bone disease, had a deformed body due to the deformation of her bones and was therefore bound to a wheelchair.You can find the listen to the video here: YouTubeId be interested to hear what you think about the following two topics related to the video:1. Do you feel the same way as her that living with a disability is not an achievement in its own right and doesnt make you exceptional?2. Does it happen to you, that seeing people tell you that you are an inspiration to them solely because you are sight impaired and not related to any concrete accomplishments? Do they even over look your real achievements and solely focus on the no seeing thing?I have to say I am guilty of this behavior as outlined in the video but I dont feel particularly guilty about it. Every single person that ever lived had problems of some sort. Looking to other people who have been dealt a worse hand of cards and get by with it seemingly fine makes me reevaluate my own situation with the predictable conclusion of it could be worse and feeling better about my life. I see nothing wrong with that as long as you dont let these thoughts change the way you treat and interact with disabled people. Mankind is a social animal and comparisons between ourselves and other individuals is second nature to us. It drives and compels us. I would even argue that disabled people have their own inspirational spam when comparing themselves to the more severely impeded. Do you agree or disagree? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198108#p198108 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Inspiration or Objectification
Inspiration or Objectification Edit: Well, the forum software changes the word p o r n to spam. Just so you know. Im not talking about canned food here.Hello there,Ive just saw an interesting YouTube video about objectification and idealization of disabled people as inspirational spam. Stella Young who is giving the talk and died about two weeks ago related to her disability. She suffered from osteogenesis imperfecta also known as brittle bone disease, had a deformed body due to the deformation of her bones and was therefore bound to a wheelchair.You can find the listen to the video here: YouTubeId be interested to hear what you think about the following two topics related to the video:1. Do you feel the same way as her that living with a disability is not an achievement in its own right and doesnt make you exceptional?2. Does it happen to you, that seeing people tell you that y ou are an inspiration to them solely because you are sight impaired and not related to any concrete accomplishments? Do they even overlook your real achievements and solely focus on the no seeing thing?I have to say I am guilty of this behavior as outlined in the video but I dont feel particularly guilty about it. Every single person that ever lived had problems of some sort. Looking to other people who have been dealt a worse hand of cards and get by with it seemingly fine makes me reevaluate my own situation with the predictable conclusion of it could be worse and feeling better about my life. I see nothing wrong with that as long as you dont let these thoughts change the way you treat and interact with disabled people. Mankind is a social animal and comparisons between ourselves and other individuals is second nature to us. It drives and compels us. I would even argue that disabled people have their own inspirational spam when comparing themselves t o the more severely impeded. Do you agree or disagree? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198108#p198108 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Inspiration or Objectification
Re: Inspiration or Objectification Interesting. I encounter this often, mostly at university where random people tell me theyre inspired by the fact that Im actually studying. I found it a bit odd in the beginning but have gotten more accustomed to it over time, but it never bothered me. And yes I do do the same with people I perceive as being worse off than me. I guess because we dont understand how it must be to live with certain impairments, and cant imagine ourselves in such situations we might exaggerate the challenges and overall unpleasantness in our minds. I particularly experience this in relation to mentally impaired people; I cant imagine how that must be and count myself very lucky that I dont have such. And who wouldnt read about people dying in the Syrian civil war or of ebola in Sierra Leone and not feel lucky that the lottery of birth placed them in a better situation.Simply living with a disability obviously doesnt make you exceptional; Im sure most people put in the situation would learn to manage. There are disabled people though who do exceptional things despite their disability, but this isnt usually the case for the regular, average disabled person. And I do feel like people tend to exaggerate your accomplishments because of your disability, even when the particular disability does not really limit you in that particular regard.I dont quite understand her statement that youre impaired by society rather than your body. Of course there are things that society can do to make it easier to live with a disability, but the core problem is still the physical disability and the limitations it imposes. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198179#p198179 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
