Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools @Orko: Not at all. I just saw one part of the discussion that had not been responded to and responded to that alone.Regarding the rest of the debate, I don't really know what I think, which is why I said nothing else.One student in my class was paired with an uncontrollable dog, had her dog replaced nearing the end of the class and all was well with them until they returned home. a few weeks after graduating, the exact same problem started again with the same dog.Other than that, everything seemed to be okay in my class. I do know some field reps for the school that aren't particularly happy with administrative decisions of late. Oh, also, I graduated from Leader Dogs. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339445#p339445 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools @nightshadeOut of curiosity, what guide dog schools did you try out? I got my first guide dog a year and a half ago from the Seeing Eye and we're doing better than ever. Obviously this is purely anecdotal, but I had absolutely no issues with the Seeing Eye. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339431#p339431 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools Dark I think you just made history when you said you didn't know how to spell a corperation there URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339407#p339407 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools Wearing my moderation hat (or at least holding it in one hand), I will remind people that it's far better to discuss the subject at hand, than to try and question the verasity of those discussing it, since it makes for firstly a lot less by way of flame wars, and secondly, a far more interesting discussion, so I'm glad we are getting things in this topic back in check.In terms of a person's weight at least over here there are only two circumstances in which weight would affect matching with a dog, firstly if the person is literally not going out anywhere making having a guide dog a less good idea for obvious reasons, and secondly if there is a huge disparity between the weight of the person and the dog such that the person cannot exercise control. For example, my lady is tiny, less than five foot and very slight, and her last dog, while a lovely dog could be rather over enthusiastic and on occasion that provided issues if for example he decided he wasn't going to move or lunged at another dog across the street. For this reason I suspect guide dogs over here will pear her with a smaller dog this time around. Reever is a middle to large black lab retriever cross, about 40 odd kg but since I'm not exactly a small chap myself that works fine. On the subject of food, over here guide dogs have a routine arrangement with the firm Royal. Caneen ()not sure about the spelling sorry). They're a very reputable firm used by dog breeders and the police so I have no problem with the quality, however the food does contain not just solid meat but also a proportion of rice as well. Part of the reason guide dogs use Royal caneen is to insure that the spending routine remains stable so that the dog doesn't have to go too many times and isn't likely to on a walk. Reever goes once or twice a day, though has a wee slightly more often, of course if a dog does! go on a walk it's necessary to pick up and not a big deal, but it's better if a dog doesn't. guide dogs do monitor the food situation, and indeed last year I had an occasion where they switched Reever's food to a lower calory version because she was putting on too much weight, however the lower cal food caused her to go far too often, indeed I wondered if it gave her a bad stomach, so I talked to the health officer (as I said he was a nice guy), and got the food switched back, but I make sure to give her slightly less.This is the sort of thing guide dogs over here routinely do, indeed you have regular care visits each year. Also since the price of the dogs is pretty much whatever a person wants to pay (although guide dogs maintain ownership), there any kind of financial insentive to get people matched with dogs, quite the opposite in fact.Now of course, guide dogs is an organization over here and who works for them is necessarily a good person (as I mentioend the previous health officer was a real prat), though I will say the majority of people I've met in several guide dog teams have been extremely good. it's also fair to say that I have met people over here who have had major problems the organization, indeed a friend of mine recently had to return his dog and now has a huge hate about them, however to what extent this was a personality clash, and to what extent simply the fact that my friend had not grown up around dogs (much less guide dogs), so was less familiar with dog care generally and perhaps had less than reasonable expectations I do not know. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339398#p339398 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools @CAE_Jones You are correct, I have tried to get a dog. For anyone who's wondering, I'm unable to get a guide dog because of the area I'm in. There is a 10 mile stretch of road between here and the town, and no sidewalks. It would be impossible to walk from point A to point B, and thus it would be impractical to get a guide dog, sense really I wouldn't need 1 if I have public transit and a cane. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339396#p339396 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools Chiming in a bit late, but. I just came back home with my first guide dog a week ago from Guidedogs for the Blind. THe people at the school were very helpful, and I did not seem to have any issues being matched with a dog. I know since I'm very new to the whole process my opinion really doesn't count for much, but figured I'd speak up regardless. Not quite sure why, honestly. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339385#p339385 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools @Orko, as you say, it's possible. We're planning on training a dog with a ton of professional assistance ourselves to see how things go. We'll provide progress if anyone's interested on the matter. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339372#p339372 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I was getting ready to quote and respond to a bunch of people, but I feel like a lot of the big things have already been touched on so I didn't want to rehash the same arguments.Orko wrote:finally, while calling you fat may not have been the best way to go about it, if you are over weight, you should consider trying to lose some of that weight. The reason is that there will be times when your guide dog will have to disobey you to keep you safe and sometimes that might involve using its weight to prevent you from moving forward into a situation that it deems as unsafe, such as a street with traffic on it, and if you weigh significantly more than the dog, that puts the dog at a disadvantage at best, or unable to stop you at worst.If a handler did not way significantly more than their dog, I'd be concerned for that person's health and I'd tell them to eat a lot more.For reference, the smallest dog in my class weighed about 55 lbs. (25kg) The largest weighed about 75 lbs. 34 KG) . That's not to say that there aren't guide dogs larger and heavier than that, but they're not as common. My dog weighs 60 lbs (27 kg.) If I didn't weigh at least twice that, which I do, I'd worry about my health.If I was a guide dog trainer, I'd worry far more about the energy levels of overweight handlers than i would about the dogs being able to hold their weight in emergencies. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339370#p339370 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools Hmmm why do I see a pattern here.I think here in nz the guidedog school which is part of the main education hub probably wouldn't be this bad.But the same pattern went round when I was getting into a job with training.School, they say you will get a job.Courses at the institute say you will get somewhere.Lifeskills training grooms you for a job.You get a good adviser maybe and they to say you will get a job.You go to university and they say you will get a job.But then there are problems, equipment failiers, stuff coming later than you would expect things like that.A bit troublesom but you push on.Then there is afterward.There isn't a job, call your agent of your agencies of choice or the ones you et.Rumble, rumble, rumble, test, do this and that complete your cv.Still a chance, then agents burn out.Rumble, rumble rumble, get cv completed, agents burn out, one organisation says we can't help right now, fine try another one.Rumble, rumble, rumble, 6 years later you are circling about and about like a plane in the air waiting to come down but you will never get clearence.It goes without saying that your local adviser is no more, you are asked to subscribe to job sites and lists which supprisingly don't have anything you can remotely do.And so you go on till your tanks run dry and you realise, that with all the build up there in fact is no goal, there is no pot of gold, there is no cliff to jump off of its just that you have reached the end of the tracks and there is no return ticket at least till you retire and then its not that interesting anyway.I am unsure if its the atitude from organisations to disabled people, low payed staffers, the current echonomic climate or general mucking about of people in general, but if this is what the disability sector is like I'd prefur to be poor blind and helpless for all it has gotten me.I was happy knowing nothing living a simple dependant life happy to sit my days away on a chair in a room.Now I am not I have a life except I know that I have been shown the door and not only had it slammed in the face but had it slammed on my balls 10 times in a row before I was picked up and chucked off a 30 story building to the ground below.They were happy to open the door but enter I could not.I know it wouldn't have been a vary productive life if I didn't make the leap when I did, but there is a large part of me that does think, that while it was a sad life I was happy where I was not knowing.I now know not only that I am in a hole but there was never a chance to get out in the first place, its like loto, slight chance in winning and a few do win but mostly not everyone else.Luckily the way my life is structured, I use a cane, not a dog, I have family and people to help well guide me about.I have family who walk with me and take me out.Its a life, its not the life, just the life I have been randomly given.Really wish I knew why I wasn't chosen for the standard one though, after been given the entire package.It seems the same is true with other things like this to. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339369#p339369 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools Oh, I whole-heartedly agree things need to change.. I was simply making an observation that stories like the ones in this topic simply don't match up with what I've heard and observed. But this kind of thing shouldn't surprise me, and I do see how a string of bad experiences like the ones had by Nightshade could build up. Granted again that most people I know of have only mainly used the Seeing Eye or GDB, so this may be a case of, again, me speaking out of turn, never having had a dog myself. Thanks for acepting the appology and explanation. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339360#p339360 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools @Orko, as I believe your intent in editing your post was a good one, I take your point fairly and will say no more concerning this issue; my sincerest and most humble appologies if you feel I painted you in the wrong light, given you explained yourself well.@raygrote, no hard feelings; you asked a question and wanted an honest answer... I see no problem with that. when we can put aside all grievances and personal biases I think we can all work together for a more productive experience; I hope this topic will serve as an overall reminder of that. it was, in fact, at my suggestion that this topic was created; Nightshade had a lot to say on the subject and I thought we should open it up for discussion, which is why I was so discouraged by what we both perceived as attacks so early on in the topic. thanks to clarification, we need not worry about all of that anymore, which brings me to...@assault_freak, thank you very much for your appologies, but even more so, for your explanation and clarification. We don't mean to spread any misinformation concerning guide dog schools but have gleamed a lot from personal experience and feel it would be wrong for us to keep silent about it. That's not to say that we believe the guide dog schools are evil, nefarious institutions with no good in mind constantly conspiring against all blind and vision impaired individuals; I believe Nightshade did try to make a case about that in her first post, but we're almost entirely certain there are things that need to change. For my part I'd like to see more of what Dark mentioned in post 15 where these schools are concerned, because at present the system seems rather stringent and likely to disqualify you for any reason of their choosing, whether they choose to tell you about it or not, as was the case with my wife and her final dog. her final match up consisted of a dog the instructors all knew was destined to fail, because the dog hadn't even completed its training and didn't know how to respond, but it made it rather clear that they weren't intending to issue her with another dog and that they simply wanted her out of there, as evidenced by the fact that they had purchased her plain ticket home a day before they even paired her up with said dog. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339359#p339359 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools Nocturnus wrote:Post 2 makes no attempt to hide it and simply states that, and I quote, "this sounds like by and far very, very exagerated," which by far has to refer to post 1. if nothing else, one could at the very least clarify that the article is exagerated, but suggesting that Nightshades experiences are when she has tried to be as honest as possible concerning her experiences is nothing short of calling her a liar in my book. it would have honestly been nicer for such a statement to be phrased as a question.After having read this and looking at it, you make a fair point, one which I overlooked since I am not familiar with either side of this really. Perhaps I could identify more with Assault's perspective that the information seemed to be in exaggeration. It is only natural to wonder if bad information is true, without intending to call the person a lyer. I would hope for the sake of public awareness that if this was a huge problem, it would be more widely known by now. Cae puts it nicely in post 11 though. We definitely have a world that is difficult to cope with. I can see how post 2 could make her out to be a lyer especially if you and her have both dealt with it. I haven't, so maybe that's why I didn't take it the way you did and agreed with Assault. Since he has already commented on this and apologized, I'll say no more about it. After all, miscommunication when emotions are high is not hard to set in motion.Post 3 has actually been edited to detract from its original attitude, but stated that he believed that the issue lay between the keyboard and the chair, hence my suggestion that he was, for all intents and purposes cryptically calling Nightshade stupid.Okay, well if that was the case then I'll leave it at that, no use beating a dead horse. I just felt a lot of bad unresolved vibes here which I didn't get. Thank you both Nocturnus and Assault for responding. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339340#p339340 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools Nocturnus wrote:Post 2 makes no attempt to hide it and simply states that, and I quote, "this sounds like by and far very, very exagerated," which by far has to refer to post 1. if nothing else, one could at the very least clarify that the article is exagerated, but suggesting that Nightshades experiences are when she has tried to be as honest as possible concerning her experiences is nothing short of calling her a liar in my book. it would have honestly been nicer for such a statement to be phrased as a question.After having read this and looking at it, you make a fair point, one which I overlooked since I am not familiar with either side of this really. Perhaps I could identify more with Assault's perspective that the information seemed to be in exaggeration. It is only natural to wonder if bad information is true, without intending to call the person a lier, but just to question how they came to the conclusions they did. I would hope for the sake of public awareness that if this was a huge problem, it would be more widely known by now. Cae puts it nicely in post 11 though. We definitely have a world that is difficult to cope with. I can see how post 2 could make her out to be a lyer especially if you and her have both dealt with it. I haven't, so maybe that's why I didn't take it the way you did and agreed with Assault. Since he has already commented on this and apologized, I'll say no more about it. After all, miscommunication when emotions are high is not hard to set in motion.Post 3 has actually been edited to detract from its original attitude, but stated that he believed that the issue lay between the keyboard and the chair, hence my suggestion that he was, for all intents and purposes cryptically calling Nightshade stupid.Okay, well if that was the case then I'll leave it at that, no use beating a dead horse. I just felt a lot of bad unresolved vibes here which I didn't get. Thank you both Nocturnus and Assault for responding. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339340#p339340 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools Nocturnus wrote:Post 2 makes no attempt to hide it and simply states that, and I quote, "this sounds like by and far very, very exagerated," which by far has to refer to post 1. if nothing else, one could at the very least clarify that the article is exagerated, but suggesting that Nightshades experiences are when she has tried to be as honest as possible concerning her experiences is nothing short of calling her a liar in my book. it would have honestly been nicer for such a statement to be phrased as a question.After having read this and looking at it, you make a fair point, one which I overlooked since I am not familiar with either side of this really. Perhaps I could identify more with Assault's perspective that the information seemed to be in exaggeration. It is only natural to wonder if bad information is true. I would hope for the sake of public awareness that if this was a huge problem, he would've heard about it by now. Cae puts it nicely in post 11 though. Taken in the wrong way, I can see how such a response could make her out to be a lyer, especially if you've seen it. I haven't, so maybe that's why I didn't take it the way you did. Since he has already commented on this and apologized, I'll say no more about it. After all, miscommunication when emotions are high is not hard to set in motion.Post 3 has actually been edited to detract from its original attitude, but stated that he believed that the issue lay between the keyboard and the chair, hence my suggestion that he was, for all intents and purposes cryptically calling Nightshade stupid.Okay, well if that was the case then I'll leave it at that, no use beating a dead horse. Just sounded like a lot of bad vibes I didn't get. Thank you both Nocturnus and ASsault for responding. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339340#p339340 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools @nocturnus and nightshade both. If I implied calling Nightshade a liar, that definitely wasn't my intent. As usual, intentions don't cary throuh words on the internet as well as they normally might elsewhere. Yes, it may have been better stated as a question. The point of my post wasn't to call nightsmade a liar... but to say that stories like this don't match up with anyone I know who has gotten their dogs in the states. Some of my friends have had negative experiences, but it usually isn't the school's fault and is usually smoothed over without a lot of struggle. Exaggerated may have been the wrong word. But the question I should perhaps asked is why stories like this do not crop up more often. Yes, you read about negative guide dog school experiences to some degree, but not to the same extent as what Nightshade has written here, which is why I was wondering.Again, if I came across the wrong way, I certainly didn't intend to. I have a habbit of being too blunt and direct at times, and this was one of those times obviously where that was the wrong thing to do, however unintentional it my have been. Hope Nocturnus and Nightshade will both take this as a sincere appology from me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339337#p339337 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I don't know where you got your info Orko, However. A guide dog does not go out just once a day, nor should any other dog. The dog goes out at between 5:30 and 6:30 when you get up at the school, then at around 8:30 usually, 11, 1:30 to 2, 4:30, then again at like 7ish, and then again once more before you go to bed, also you feed the dog twice a day once in the morning and once at 4:30.The dogs poop usually 1 to 5 times a day. Its usually at least 1 handful or perhaps 2 or even 3 at each session. Some dogs are easier to pick up after than others. Foods I've seen fed, or heard of include Science diet, byproducts and corn, Iams/Eukanuba, same thing, and Purina, again byproducts, corn, and brewers rice. Dogs aren't meant to handle these types of foods, and if I won't eat road kill I'm sure not feeding it to my dog. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339331#p339331 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I cannot contribute to the discussion of guide dogs and guide dog schools, but I really do need to step in to address some of the dynamics I am seeing in this thread, which I do not understand and which are not sitting well with me.Nocturnus wrote:It pains me to see such assumptions being made on this forum about a person who has thus been truthfull to the letter whenever posting out here, but even more so, about a person you know little to nothing about. We've done as much research into this as we possibly can, so being branded liars/overexagerative is quite an insult and something I've not yet had to deal with on ag net, but I guess there's a first time for everything. I can't say I've ever had to deal with being cryptically called stupid, either.It pains me to see assumptions being made about another person's assumptions. Maybe I am just ignorant, but I didn't see anything in posts 2 and 3 that made Nightshade out to be a lyer, or that cripticly called anyone stupid. I am frankly scared that an opinion opposite to one's own has to be attacked like this, and it has seriously changed my feelings about how safe I feel expressing my thoughts and experiences. Okay, if posts 2 and 3 do have assumptions put in them which are totally unfounded, if they do somehow make Nightshade out to be a lier or say she is stupid, I really do need it pointed out, because I honestly don't see it. Yes, doing research into an issue before commenting is always a good idea, and maybe people aren't doing that and seeming antagonistic because they don't know the truth. I can't make the call of who is truthful or who is not, but we all have our own experiences, and expressing those is only natural and that's all I saw here. I don't know. I'm just seriously stressed out right now seeing this. Please Nocturnus if you are reading this, do not take this as a personal attack but as a message from someone who is deeply concerned. I normally don't see you writing like this and am frankly very confused.LordLundin wrote:@Nocturnus she's your wife yes, is that also why she was granted moderator status only having made 22 posts?Your defense of her is absolutely ridiculous. No one called her a liar, but to question validity is always something sane to do seeing as their own experiences did not match hers or the ones presented in her data.Unfortunately any agreement I had with you is tainted and effectively nullified by your temperament. This is not a good way to rationally discuss something, and I don't see the point. This was not the time or place to make such a statement about how Nocturnus will defend Nightshade because she's his wife, which btw I never knew until this thread.Dark wrote:Now, might I suggest we get back to the question at hand and stop trying to undermine those asking it.Very good idea. I still can't understand quite why this thread has gone where it has, which admittedly is the only reason I replied in the first place. It would really put me at ease if we could calmly discuss our differences! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339324#p339324 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I cannot contribute to the discussion of guide dogs and guide dog schools, but I really do need to step in to address some of the dynamics I am seeing in this thread, which I do not understand and which are not sitting well with me.Nocturnus wrote:It pains me to see such assumptions being made on this forum about a person who has thus been truthfull to the letter whenever posting out here, but even more so, about a person you know little to nothing about. We've done as much research into this as we possibly can, so being branded liars/overexagerative is quite an insult and something I've not yet had to deal with on ag net, but I guess there's a first time for everything. I can't say I've ever had to deal with being cryptically called stupid, either.It pains me to see assumptions being made about another person's assumptions. Maybe I am just ignorant, but I didn't see anything in posts 2 and 3 that made Nightshade out to be a lyer, or that cripticly called anyone stupid. I am frankly scared that an opinion opposite to one's own has to be attacked like this, and it has seriously changed my feelings about how safe I feel expressing my thoughts and experiences. Okay, if posts 2 and 3 do have assumptions put in them which are totally unfounded, if they do somehow make Nightshade out to be a lier or say she is stupid, I really do need it pointed out, because I honestly don't see it. Yes, doing research into an issue before commenting is always a good idea, and maybe people aren't doing that and seeming antagonistic because they don't know the truth. I cna't make the call of who is truthful or who is not, but we all have our own experiences, and expressing those is only natural and that's all I saw here. I don't know. I'm just seriously stressed out right now seeing this. Please Nocturnus if you are reading this, do not take this as a personal attack but as a message from someone who is deeply concerned. I normally don't see you writing like this and am frankly very confused.LordLundin wrote:@Nocturnus she's your wife yes, is that also why she was granted moderator status only having made 22 posts?Your defense of her is absolutely ridiculous. No one called her a liar, but to question validity is always something sane to do seeing as their own experiences did not match hers or the ones presented in her data.Unfortunately any agreement I had with you is tainted and effectively nullified by your temperament. This is not a good way to rationally discuss something, and I don't see the point. This was not the time or place to make such a statement about how Nocturnus will defend Nightshade because she's his wife, which btw I never knew until this thread.Dark wrote:Now, might I suggest we get back to the question at hand and stop trying to undermine those asking it.Very good idea. I still can't understand quite why this thread has gone where it has, which admittedly is the only reason I came here in the first place. It would really put me at ease if we could calmly discuss our differences! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339324#p339324 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I cannot contribute to the discussion of guide dogs, but I really do need to step in to address some of the dynamics I am seeing in this thread, which I do not understand and which are not sitting well with me.Nocturnus wrote:It pains me to see such assumptions being made on this forum about a person who has thus been truthfull to the letter whenever posting out here, but even more so, about a person you know little to nothing about... We've done as much research into this as we possibly can, so being branded liars/overexagerative is quite an insult and something I've not yet had to deal with on ag net, but I guess there's a first time for everything. I can't say I've ever had to deal with being cryptically called stupid, either.It pains me to see assumptions being made about another person's assumptions. Maybe I am just ignorant, but I didn't see anything in posts 2 and 3 that made Nightshade out to be a lyer, or that cripticly called anyone stupid. I am frankly scared that an opinion opposite to one's own has to be attacked like this, and it has seriously changed my feelings about how safe I feel expressing my thoughts and experiences. Okay, if posts 2 and 3 do have assumptions put in them which are totally unfounded, if they do somehow make Nightshade out to be a lier or say she is stupid, I really do need it pointed out, because I honestly don't see it. Yes, doing research into an issue before commenting is always a good idea, and maybe people aren't doing that and seeming antagonistic because they don't know the truth. But we all have our own experiences, and expressing those is only natural and that's all I saw here. I don't know. I'm just seriously stressed out right now seeing this. Please Nocturnus if you are reading this, do not take this as a personal attack but as a message from someone who is deeply concerned. I normally don't see you writing like this and am frankly very confused.LordLundin wrote:@Nocturnus she's your wife yes, is that also why she was granted moderator status only having made 22 posts?Your defense of her is absolutely ridiculous. No one called her a liar, but to question validity is always something sane to do seeing as their own experiences did not match hers or the ones presented in her data.Unfortunately any agreement I had with you is tainted and effectively nullified by your temperament. This is not a good way to rationally discuss something, and I don't see the point. This was not the time or place to make such a statement about how Nocturnus will defend Nightshade because she's his wife, which btw I never knew until this thread.Dark wrote:Now, might I suggest we get back to the question at hand and stop trying to undermine those asking it.Very good idea. I still can't understand quite why this thread has gone where it has, which admittedly is the only reason I came here in the first place. It would really put me at ease if we could calmly discuss our differences! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339324#p339324 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools There's this thing that tends to happen in discussions of sexual harassment, which has been given the unfortunate-but-useful name of "mansplaining". We will ignore the people who use the word to refer to a male saying anything whatsoever, and instead talk about the central case: Where people's experiences differ so greatly that someone questions someone else's interpretation of what happened to them, and the one being questioned has had this happen so often that it goes from honest confusion to offensive.IOW, people's experiences can differ to the extent that any doubt pattern-matches to "You are not welcome here". There could be other reasons (the less said about the drama in 2005, the better), but regardless, this kinda thing happens. Which is why I was trying to not be confrontational about it, and instead lay my cards, as it were, on the table. So, yeah, the flaming almost certainly will help no one.I mean, how many of us have run into the would-be savior who won't believe a polite "I got it"? Or the one's who respond by cussing you out and continuing to act like they're doing something noble? (Thank God I can outrun the one's I've encountered thus fardd) I don't know anything about Nightshade, but I've seen exactly this sort of thing play out before. Can we go back to smothering the flames with information? That was helping everyone. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339298#p339298 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools @Nocturnus do you think the guidedog training is some sort of conspiracy? Your argument about hearsay is absolutely invalid. assault_freak is a second hand source having been told by his friends about their experiences. Since you're all about data, please present the data where speaking ill about the guidedog schools have taken away dogs or restricted people in their resources for speaking ill about the school.Remember, everyone is pushing an agenda.I am not sure what yours is but meeting critique about the validity of the data is childish at best. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339296#p339296 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools @Nocturnus she's your wife yes, is that also why she was granted moderator status only having made 22 posts?Your defense of her is absolutely ridiculous. No one called her a liar, but to question validity is always something sane to do seeing as their own experiences did not match hers or the ones presented in her data.Indeed, if someone's interpretation or experience is different to others then that's definitely a cause for discussion. No one called her a liar or stupid but merely presented their interpretation of the situation just as she did. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339294#p339294 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools eI can't speak for the schools in the states. My lady got her first dog from the seeing eye and that worked out very well indeed, but that was back in the early nineties, so what they're like now I don't know. My lady's second dog came from a trainer Austria and things there definitely were! a bit nuts, especially with respect to aggression and some rather off practices. Things worked outt, but my lady did say she'd not go back to that guy. Her third dog came from a different trainer in Germany, and worked out much better. He happened to have been a rejected dog, or at least he hadn't got on with his first person, but since my lady had got on with him at an initial meating the third trainer decided try things with him and he was wonderful. Sadly he died at the age of five last boxing day, and at the moment my lady is on the list over here. Guide dogs in the Uk work very differently, there are no specific match sessions, you do a questionaire on your walking speed, habbits etc and are matched with an appropriate dog and the training mostly occurs at home. A lot of the behaviour described in post one, from both trainers and dogs wouldn't be tolerated at all, and if there was an issue guide dogs are generally there to help with things, indeed experience with Reever has been quite fantastic, as has my mum with both of her dogs, and my gran with all six of hers before her.The guide dogs organisation over here is also one of the few blindness related groups I have a lot of time for, indeed I've done fund raising for them, and at the moment my lady is getting cane training from them, and I am working with a very nice lady (a volunteer), who is helping me give Riva a free run.I think I appreciate them since they don't tend to accept the "I can't do it because I'm blind" type of attitude, are good at sorting out problems, not just related to dogs, and in general are very straight forward to deal with. As one example, someone apparently reported to them that they'd seen me hit and kick my dog and a person then turned up to check what was going on. As it happened it wasn't anything of the kind, it was me using a foot to move reever away from an oncoming shopping trolley, and gesturing with a finger when Reever had done something wrong. While the person who reported things was definitely off on a wrong tack, and I will admit I did feel upset that someone thought I was mistreating my dog, at the same time I can't fault guide dogs for investigating since had! someone really been hitting and kicking their dog, that would obviously be a pretty major problem. Also the food they provide comes from Royal Canine, who are a very reputable firm, is provided free, (as are the dogs), and though they do maintain the right to take a dog off someone if it doesn't work, apparently this very rarely happens, indeed my trainer with Reever said he only once had to remove a dog from someone, and that weeks of trying to sort out the problems that were going wrong (apparently the person was an idiot who neglected his dog quite badly). Reever also came to me in the full knolidge that she supposedly had alogies along with diatetic food and a medication ragiem, though as it turned out none of this was really necessary, indeed I'm afraid much as I like Guide dogs as an association, that particular health officer was a right moron (her replacement was a really nice guy). So I cannot speak for these criticisms of the schools in the states, neither actually can my lady, but I will say over here experience for me has been extremely positive. As I said though, this is just my experience of things, I know for a fact things work very differently in other countries, heck my lady has experienced that first hand. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339275#p339275 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I can't speak for the schools in the states. My lady got her first dog from the seeing eye and that worked out very well indeed, but that was back in the early nineties, so what they're like now I don't know. My lady's second dog came from a trainer Austria and things there definitely were! a bit nuts, especially with respect to aggression and some rather off practices. Things worked outt, but my lady did say she'd not go back to that guy. Her third dog came from a different trainer in Germany, and worked out much better. He happened to have been a rejected dog, or at least he hadn't got on with his first person, but since my lady had got on with him at an initial meating the third trainer decided try things with him and he was wonderful. Sadly he died at the age of five last boxing day, and at the moment my lady is on the list over here. Guide dogs in the Uk work very differently, there are no specific match sessions, you do a questionaire on your walking speed, habbits etc and are matched with an appropriate dog and the training mostly occurs at home. A lot of the behaviour described in post one, from both trainers and dogs wouldn't be tolerated at all, and if there was an issue guide dogs are generally there to help with things, indeed experience with Reever has been quite fantastic, as has my mum with both of her dogs, and my gran with all six of hers before her.The guide dogs organisation over here is also one of the few blindness related groups I have a lot of time for, indeed I've done fund raising for them, and at the moment my lady is getting cane training from them, and I am working with a very nice lady (a volunteer), who is helping me give Riva a free run.I think I appreciate them since they don't tend to accept the "I can't do it because I'm blind" type of attitude, are good at sorting out problems, not just related to dogs, and in general are very straight forward to deal with. As one example, someone apparently reported to them that they'd seen me hit and kick my dog and a person then turned up to check what was going on. As it happened it wasn't anything of the kind, it was me using a foot to move reever away from an oncoming shopping trolley, and gesturing with a finger when Reever had done something wrong. While the person who reported things was definitely off on a wrong tack, and I will admit I did feel upset that someone thought I was mistreating my dog, at the same time I can't fault guide dogs for investigating since had! someone really been hitting and kicking their dog, that would obviously be a pretty major problem. Also the food they provide comes from Royal Canine, who are a very reputable firm, is provided free, (as are the dogs), and though they do maintain the right to take a dog off someone if it doesn't work, apparently this very rarely happens, indeed my trainer with Reever said he only once had to remove a dog from someone, and that weeks of trying to sort out the problems that were going wrong (apparently the person was an idiot who neglected his dog quite badly). Reever also came to me in the full knolidge that she supposedly had alogies along with diatetic food and a medication ragiem, though as it turned out none of this was really necessary, indeed I'm afraid much as I like Guide dogs as an association, that particular health officer was a right moron (her replacement was a really nice guy). So I cannot speak for these criticisms of the schools in the states, neither actually can my lady, but I will say over here the situation has for me been extremely positive. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339275#p339275 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools This is funny as I'm heading out to Guiding Eyes on Monday to get my second dog. I have had nothing but good to say about them, but I have definitely heard and seen some stuff from other schools I was not a fan of. Nothing as bad as stated in post 1, but still rather annoying. I know guiding Eyes has worked with multiple disabilities, and even someone who walked slower than a glacier. I'm serious. This person was so slow. People are strange, and people working in institutions like these are sometimes jaded, and so things like these happen. Sad, but true. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=339045#p339045 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
2017-11-17
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : Green Gables Fan via Audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools Okay, I didn't read all of the previous posts, but strangely enough I was talking to a friend of mine last week about the different guide dog schools out there. My friend chose Leader Dogs in Michigan because they have been known to be less strict, more accommodating, and they work with people who are deaf-blind, or blind and have another combined disability. In Oregon, none of the instructors there had any experience working with a deaf-blind student, me, although I prefer the term blind and hard-of-hearing. Their only experience is with blind people, and deaf people, but not the two combined.I had asked if there were any legal or ethical codes these schools were breaking by not following standard procedure both for humans and animals. For example, if a guide dog becomes aggressive, there are procedures with animal control to deal with a dog-on-dog situation. If it involves a person, it will involve the police.Let me tell you why I am so hesitant to get a guide dog. When I was eleven or twelve, in 2006, on Sunday, 25 June 2006, at around 23:0 PDT GMT-8:00 US and Canada, one of the ladies who used to board at my mother's house came home with a Blue Heeler. She let me play with the dog, whose name was soda. He and I wandered off to the grass, where I sat down to do something. Suddenly, the dog attacked me without warning and bit my nose pretty badly. Luckily, the nerve endings had broken so I couldn't feel too much pain, but I had bled quite a bit. So I had to be driven to the emergency room so I could get stitched up. I needed four stitches, and I didn't get out of the hospital until around 4:00 Monday morning. I rode back to my dad's house, for my parents were divorced.Ever since that experience, I've been reluctant to be around dogs because I am afraid of such an episode repeating itself. I also developed irrational fears about feeding dogs. I was offered a dog treat, but I was afraid that if I handed the dog its treat, it would accidentally bite my fingers in the process because the dog would lunge at its food.In 2012, I started slowly adapting to working with small puppies as I know those are very easy to work with, but from now on, I don't think I would feel comfortable with a guide dog, unless I could get a puppy who grew up knowing me and getting used to me. But the problem would come on how to train it and at the same time getting me used to it.When I asked about why blind people didn't mind being told what to do by the schools, that they just roll over on command, and they don't mind when instructors talk to them in condescending tones, I was like, well, have they been raised to think that way? Myself, I would much rather make my own choices, have total ownership of the dog, and not let the school interfere. Besides, if I sign a contract that surrenders their ownership of the dog to me, they should not, under any circumstance check up on you randomly, and I'm sure a LegalShield attorney could talk to you about the legal contract and what the school is legally obligated to do. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338827#p338827 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I agree with @Nocturnus here. There's nothing wrong with being skeptical, but there's no reason to undermine what someone has to say just because their experience with the topic doesn't match what you've experienced in the past. Honestly though, these kinds of experiences seem to be somewhat common across specialized organizations. I've never had my own experience with any of these places, but I do know someone who is looking into starting the process. I'll give them the heads up and keep track of their experience. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338820#p338820 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I wouldn't call pointing out that everything one has heard before doesn't fit with the assertion calling the asserter a liar. If people aren't allowed to doubt something on the internet without it being a personal attack, then we have much, much bigger things to worry about.Anyway, I will remind everyone that the US is vast and contains multitudes. And that the article specified that things have changed over time. I recall someone (Shotgunshell?) recently posting about experiences with a guide dog organization that sound closer to the article than not. AFAIK, Nightshade and that poster are in the same region of the country. Meanwhile, the in-person accounts of dog-training I've heard came from Oklahoma, and from a long-time user. I don't remember all of the comments I heard from them, to the point that I don't really remember if their view was overall positive or negative. But, again, they were on their third dog, not because of the organization being weird, but because they're at the age where you can hear the decades of smoking in their voice and have been using a guide for a big chunk of their adult life.And, well, we just had a thread about specialist schools. Experiences ranged from "meh, a little rigid" to "micromanaged and isolationist" to bording school of horrors with literal gang-beatdowns and dungeons. I am prepared to take Nightshade and Assault_freak at their words with regards to their experiences and what they've heard from others, because that's the kind of world we have. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338815#p338815 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools @Orko,You ask how I happen to know Nightshade is being truthful and honest? The answer is simple: Nightshade is my wife. I've seen first hand some of the dealings she's had with Gallant heart, guide dogs for the blind, Seeing eye, and Freedom guidedogs, all guide dog institutions in the US. All of them have given her run arounds in some way or another. I believe you also wanted to know how I could possibly know she's always been truthful or honest. I'll in turn, ask you the same question, about anyone. Is there any one person who has always been truthful or honest? what I know I've witnessed and is therefore not based on subjectively derived importance. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338812#p338812 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I can only speak to the quality of the Seeing Eye circa 2013. I did hear they laid off all of their field representatives, instructors scattered across the country who can provide graduate support for post-class issues. As a graduate myself, I've waited months to see an instructor. I first-hand witnessed my partner having the same issue with delayed services for critical safety issues. The instructors wait until they have several people in your general area so they can make the trip worth it, I suppose. When the instructors did arrive in our cases, I only got an afternoon, and my partner was lucky enough to get a couple days. We are located in Colorado. Graduate services do seem to be better if you live in the Seeing Eye's geographical area.While attending class in 2013, (post layoffs), I met several veteran instructors who really were super knowledgeable in their field. I also met some newbies going through the apprenticeship process. They did inform me that things like finding empty chairs weren't being taught regularly anymore, but my instructor did give me a brief rundown of the process and ran through it a couple times with me.My dog is at a semi-retirement stage due to a rare auto-immune disease. The disease could be genetic, so I wanted them to be made aware so they could check her parents in case this crops up in future litters. I did have my vet fax records to the Seeing Eye, but I never got any kind of confirmation that their vet received the records. The receptionist had me wait for a return call from a trainer instead of having me speak directly with someone on the vet staff. I have no idea if their breeding people are aware of the issue or not.My partner's dog eventually retired due to behavior issues and reluctance to guide. He will be looking at GDB for his next guide because they are closer to us and have a better reputation through the grapevine.So TLDR from someone who owns their dog and isn't afraid of their school, grad services suck if they have to fly to you, I had an amazing class experience, and I didn't personally witness any of the things in the OP's post. Not to say they aren't true, though. I think rumors about the various schools are a very mixed bag of sad truth, exaggeration, and misrepresentation. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338811#p338811 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools @NocturnusWhile you make some valid points, they also bring up their own set of questions, such as,How do you know nightshade has always been truthful and honest? Do you know him or her personally and can vouch for him, or are you just like the rest of us where all you know is what you've gleemed from this forum?Not to question what you or nightshade are saying, but if you are going to make claims of his or her truthfulness and honesty, can you back those claims up with firsthand knowledge about him or her? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338802#p338802 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I also hesitate to get involved in this thread, so I will say this and nothing more.Everyone I know that has gotten a guide dog has had nothing but good to say about the school and the dogs. And when the dogs I've met were taken out of harness so I could interact with them, they were all mild mannered, well behaved, and some were down right affectionate.I myself don't have a guide dog because I don't need the kind of movility a dog would provide and would rather see the resources used for those that really need it. For what limited mobility I do need, my long white cane serves me quite well. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338775#p338775 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools Here is another article which backs what I'm saying. The matching process is faulty. Schools used to be better in my opinion. They used to bring out practice dogs for folks to handle and or let them test drive several dogs without telling them the name etc. Now they've made the programs shorter, and removed those aspects along with others of the program.Its also quite difficult to get home training. You either have to wait quite a long time, accept a german shepherd, or live in the perfect place.Schools can also choose not to accept whoever they want, for any reason they want.Reasons I have heard include that your family moved too much when you were a child, we don't like your house, we don't like where you live, we heard x about you from another client, you have small children, you have other pets, and the list goes on.Schools also will let you express preferences, but ultimately your match is up to the instructor.Anyway, here's the article.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5159482/ URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338799#p338799 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools The article is in fact correct. There are actually only 12 IGDF certified guide dog schools in the United States.See here for a complete list.https://www.igdf.org.uk/closest-dog-gui … ed-states/There are schools which exist but are not certified by IGDF.Saying a school has to be certified or not by IGDF is another argument, but I suspect the article was only counting IGDF certified schools as they are the model most people seek.Sadly I suspect IGDF doesn't know all of what goes on behind closed doors.All of the accounts related to you in post 1 were my own experiences, or those of very close friends.It seems that most of the blind community likes to be sheltered. They'd rather take a substandard dog who can't pass any of the CGC tests than stand up for what's right for themselves and for the dogs. They'd rather take a free dog who might or might not work out from a school who might or might not work out rather than standing up for what's right. There are a few owner trainers as I stated in post 1, and a few who have paid private trainers to help them. There are some great matches that have come out of the schools. I won't deny that for a second. I myself have had 3 incredible matches which sadly ended prematurely in cancer at just over 2 years old, kidney failure at not even 2 years of age, and the third dog taken before I could get her home simply because she had allergies. You can call me a lier all you'd like, but until you've walked in my shoes or have firsthand experience of what I'm telling you that's not really fair URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338798#p338798 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools of course blind and visually impaired individuals will more than likely say good stuff about the guide dog schools, because they hesitate to say anything that'll cause them to lose their chance at getting a dog, or their dog in general, if they already have it. Seeing eye only has a fee because they want the person who receives the dog to feel a little better about themselves, as is the case with most institutions that deal with blind people in general.It pains me to see such assumptions being made on this forum about a person who has thus been truthfull to the letter whenever posting out here, but even more so, about a person you know little to nothing about. We've done as much research into this as we possibly can, so being branded liars/overexagerative is quite an insult and something I've not yet had to deal with on ag net, but I guess there's a first time for everything. I can't say I've ever had to deal with being cryptically called stupid, either.I'm going to leave it at this; please, if you're going to call someone a liar based both on research and their own personal experience, do a little legwork yourself and use something other than hearsay to back it up. I might also point out that being being hesitant to join in on a discussion then plunging in full steam really does make you seem antagonistic. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338792#p338792 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I've never heard of anything like this. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338794#p338794 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools of course blind and visually impaired individuals will more than likely say good stuff about the guide dog schools, because they hesitate to say anything that'll cause them to lose their chance at getting a dog, or their dog in general, if they already have it. Seeing eye only has a fee because they want the person who receives the dog to feel a little better about themselves, as is the case with most institutions that deal with blind people in general.It pains me to see such assumptions being made on this forum about a person who has thus been truthfull to the letter whenever posting out here, but even more so, about a person you know nothing about. We've done as much research into this as we possibly can, so being branded liars/overexagerative is quite an insult and something I've not yet had to deal with on ag net, but I guess there's a first time for everything. I can't say I've ever had to deal with being cryptically called stupid, either.I'm going to leave it at this; please, if you're going to call someone a liar based both on research and their own personal experience, do a little legwork yourself and use something other than hearsay to back it up. I might also point out that being being hesitant to join in on a discussion then plunging in full steam really does make you seem antagonistic. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338792#p338792 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I also hesitate to get involved in this thread, so I will say this and nothing more.The feeling I get from this is something akin to "the problem exists between the keyboard and the chair". But that's is just a feeling that could be wrong.Everyone I know that has gotten a guide dog has had nothing but good to say about the school and the dogs. And when the dogs I've met were taken out of harness so I could interact with them, they were all mild mannered, well behaved, and some were down right affectionate.I myself don't have a guide dog because I don't need the kind of movility a dog would provide and would rather see the resources used for those that really need it. For what limited mobility I do need, my long white cane serves me quite well. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338775#p338775 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools I also hesitate to get involved in this thread, so I will say this and nothing more.The feeling I get from this is something akin to "the problem exists between the keyboard and the chair". But that's just a feeling and mostly because everyone I know that has gotten a guide dog has had nothing but good to say about the school and the dogs. And when the dogs I've met were taken out of harness so I could interact with them, they were all mild mannered, well behaved, and some were down right affectionate.I myself don't have a guide dog because I don't need the kind of movility a dog would provide and would rather see the resources used for those that really need it. For what limited mobility I do need, my long white cane serves me quite well. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338775#p338775 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools The feeling I get from this is something akin to "the problem exists between the keyboard and the chair". But that's just a feeling and mostly because everyone I know that has gotten a guide dog has had nothing but good to say about the school and the dogs. And when the dogs I've met were taken out of harness so I could interact with them, they were all mild mannered and well behaved. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338775#p338775 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools
Re: What's wrong with the guide dog schools ... I hesitate to jump into this discussion, not having ever had a guide myself... but this sounds like by and far very, very exagerated. 90% of my friends have gotten dogs in the states from schools all across the countries, even those who are from Canada usually fly down there, and none of them have had issues like the ones you describe. The article also says 12 schools in the states.. which is inaccurate, as not counting multiple branches of guide dogs for the blind, there are at least 14. Most stories I've heard definitely sound like they have higher standards... and I do know for a fact that Seeing Eye does let you graduate as the owner of your dog, hence why the $150 fee when you apply for it, in contrast to the article which says the schools all provide dogs free of charge. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=338767#p338767 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
What's wrong with the guide dog schools
What's wrong with the guide dog schools This article I feel only begins to hint at the issues surrounding the guide dog schools.I personally have attended 4, yes, 4 of them and have been met with ridicule. I've had dogs taken for no reason what so ever. I've had dogs taken because the dog had allergies, even though we were a perfect match and I told the school I was fine with treating her allergies. I've had dogs bite myself, and trainers at the program. I've had a dog with cancer, a dog who peed and pooped in public everytime we went out, stopped in the middle of streets. I've had a dog who had thyroid problems, and an eye problem that left her nearly blind at times. I've had a dog that was placed in class, who was limping and 2 weeks later found to have a Luxating Patella. I've had a dog who tried to kill our cat to the point he got his head stuck in the cat door. I've had a dog who was diagnosed with kidney failure, when returned to the school, they claimed she did not have kidney failure even though blood work and urine samples showed it, and she was urinating on walks and inside her crate despite being taken out properly by myself and the staff at the school. They told me they had a second match and in front of many students when I asked after the first dog they told me they had renamed her and were giving her to someone else. I've had dogs that were so dog aggressive they had to have a prong collar. I've had school staff tell me I should lose weight because I'm too fat to have a guide dog. I've had school staff tell me guide dogs can't be around small children. I also happen to know that every single guide dog school feeds low quality dog food. I'm not sure if its cost, or if they have contracts with the dog food companies, but they feed food filled with corn and byproducts. I've been in class and witnessed other clients who couldn't even put the harness on the dog without help, clients who litterally beat the dog, but the dog was issued because the clients country had paid the school for the dog. I've witnessed favoritism. I've wittnessed the schools telling clients they'd better accept what they got and keep quiet about the dogs issues or they'll remove it and send them home. I was issued a dog with allergies. I told the school I was fine with her. They took her anyway, then told me I was too fat. They then placed a second dog. This dog wouldn't even pull into the harness. They had myself and 2 instructors attached to her, pulling her down the sidewalk. After this horrifying walk, they informed me they were taking her too and had booked my plane tickets the day before because they knew she wouldn't have worked out in the first place.I've seen a dog who was issued to me who was fearful of vacuums and men. To the point of aggression. I've seen dogs in class who were so aggressive the trainers had to restrain them because they'd try to bite other dogs in class. I've seen a dog issued to someone who fed it table scraps and let it pee and poop inside the school on purpose, jump on the furniture, and bark its head off. In a class of 6, 3 dogs were switched out, 1 for biting a kitchen staff, 1 for biting an instructor when the handeler fell, and 1 for being aggressive to its handeler. I've seen people go into training and be matched with up to 4 dogs in 1 class before the right match is found or they are sent home without a dog at no fault of there own. I've seen dogs get injured and the school says they provide vet assistance tell the handeler its their problem. I've seen so much that it breaks my heart knowing that so many dogs are going through this. If they are 5 and under and something doesn't work with the first, or second, or third, etc. person, they just rename them and hand them to someone else, no matter what's wrong with the dog. I've seen it happen. I don't know if all the schools are like this, but I can speak to experiences with at least 8 of them. I fully understand why more and more folks are training there own dogs, saving and paying for private trainers, many of which are guide dog instructors who have left, or have been fired from schools for speaking there minds, or simply doing without a guide when a guide could help there lives in so many ways. I know some folks have wonderful experiences, and I'm happy about that, but the ratio to good/bad with the schools isn't good. Most schools don't even transfer ownership upon graduation and if they do its usually conditional, meaning they can come take the dog even though you supposedly own it for any reason they dream up.Anyway here's the article, and I'm sorry for this huge rambly post. I have a heart for animals, and especially for those who are trained to assist. These dogs litterally lay down there lives for their handelers. They take the handelers life into there paws on a regular basis and do it willingly and happily. I think the blind people, and the dogs in question should be treated a little better. I think there should
What's wrong with the guide dog schools
What's wrong with the guide dog schools This article I feel only begins to hint at the issues surrounding the guide dog schools.I personally have attended 4, yes, 4 of them and have been met with ridicule. I've had dogs taken for no reason what so ever. I've had dogs taken because the dog had allergies, even though we were a perfect match and I told the school I was fine with treating her allergies. I've had dogs bite myself, and trainers at the program. I've had a dog with cancer, a dog who peed and pooped in public everytime we went out, stopped in the middle of streets. I've had a dog who had thyroid problems, and an eye problem that left her nearly blind at times. I've had a dog that was placed in class, who was limping and 2 weeks later found to have a Luxating Patella. I've had a dog who tried to kill our cat to the point he got his head stuck in the cat door. I've had a dog who was diagnosed with kidney failure, when returned to the school, they claimed she did not have kidney failure even though blood work and urine samples showed it, and she was urinating on walks and inside her crate despite being taken out properly by myself and the staff at the school. They told me they had a second match and in front of many students when I asked after the first dog they told me they had renamed her and were giving her to someone else. I've had dogs that were so dog aggressive they had to have a prong collar. I've had school staff tell me I should lose weight because I'm too fat to have a guide dog. I've had school staff tell me guide dogs can't be around small children. I also happen to know that every single guide dog school feeds low quality dog food. I'm not sure if its cost, or if they have contracts with the dog food companies, but they feed food filled with corn and byproducts. I've been in class and witnessed other clients who couldn't even put the harness on the dog without help, clients who litterally beat the dog, but the dog was issued because the clients country had paid the school for the dog. I've witnessed favoritism. I've wittnesed the schools telling clients they'd better accept what they got and keep quiet about the dogs issues or they'll remove it and send them home. I was issued a dog with allergies. I told the school I was fine with her. They took her anyway, then told me I was too fat. They then placed a second dog. This dog wouldn't even pull into the harness. They had myself and 2 instructors attached to her, pulling her down the sidewalk. After this horrifying walk, they informed me they were taking her too and had booked my plane tickets the day before because they knew she wouldn't have worked out in the first place.I've seen a dog who was issued to me who was fearful of vacuums and men. To the point of aggression. I've seen dogs in class who were so aggressive the trainers had to restrain them because they'd try to bite other dogs in class. I've seen a dog issued to someone who fed it table scraps and let it pee and poop inside the school on purpose, jump on the furniture, and bark its head off. In a class of 6, 3 dogs were switched out, 1 for biting a kitchen staff, 1 for biting an instructor when the handeler fell, and 1 for being aggressive to its handeler. I've seen people go into training and be matched with up to 4 dogs in 1 class before the right match is found or they are sent home without a dog at no fault of there own. I've seen dogs get injured and the school says they provide vet assistance tell the handeler its their problem. I've seen so much that it breaks my heart knowing that so many dogs are going through this. If they are 5 and under and something doesn't work with the first, or second, or third, etc. person, they just rename them and hand them to someone else, no matter what's wrong with the dog. I've seen it happen. I don't know if all the schools are like this, but I can speak to experiences with at least 8 of them. I fully understand why more and more folks are training there own dogs, saving and paying for private trainers, many of which are guide dog instructors who have left, or have been fired from schools for speaking there minds, or simply doing without a guide when a guide could help there lives in so many ways. I know some folks ahve wonderful experiences, and I'm happy about that, but the ratio to good/bad with the schools isn't good. Most schools don't even transfer ownership upon graduation and if they do its usually conditional, meaning they can come take the dog even though you supposedly own it for any reason they dream up.Anyway here's the article, and I'm sorry for this huge rambly post. I have a heart for animals, and especially for those who are trained to assist. These dogs litteraly lay down there lives for their handelers. They take the handelers life into there paws on a regular basis and do it willingly and happily. I think the blind people, and the dogs in question should be treated a little better. I think there should
