On Fri, 2011-03-18 at 23:38 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
> I should mention, though, that in my opinion the fact that Unity merges
> the titlebar with the panel makes the dragging slightly more intuitive:
> you drag the titlebar to the thing it's going to be merged to. Perhaps
> *too* slightly to
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Spike Burch wrote on 28/03/11 12:38:
>...
> Users are more than welcome to choose to use something else, you know.
>...
Yeah, but if you keep saying that often enough, they will.
- --
mpt
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On Monday, March 28, 2011 09:18:35 am zekopeko wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 1:25 PM, David Stevenson
wrote:
> > On 28/03/11 11:44, Vishnoo wrote:
> >> We really need to collect mass user data as to how people are using
> >> their application windows, at what sizes they use the app and how oft
On Mon, 2011-03-28 at 06:27 -0700, Lance wrote:
A couple of problems come to mind with "fixed window sizes". In all cases one
must consider that I have very poor visual acuity.
Hmm? I did not mention that the windows need to be a fixed size only or
to remove any feature. :-)
What I was replyin
On Monday, March 28, 2011 5:44 AM Vishnoo wrote:
However, for app like Web-browsers, main window of email clients,inkscape,...,
they should probably open at maximum screen size. Eventhis depends on the
hardware. If someone has a 24" monitor, they mightnot need the window at that
size. While for
On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 1:25 PM, David Stevenson wrote:
> On 28/03/11 11:44, Vishnoo wrote:
>> We really need to collect mass user data as to how people are using
>> their application windows, at what sizes they use the app and how often
>> they are resizing.
>
> While I absolutely agree on collec
On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 6:25 AM, David Stevenson wrote:
> FOSS is about choice, not conforming to predefined norms.
Users are more than welcome to choose to use something else, you know.
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Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : a
On 28/03/11 11:44, Vishnoo wrote:
> We really need to collect mass user data as to how people are using
> their application windows, at what sizes they use the app and how often
> they are resizing.
While I absolutely agree on collecting user data, I am concerned with
the idea that we then try to
On Tue, 2011-03-22 at 12:08 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>
> Vishnoo wrote on 19/03/11 04:31:
> >
> > No, they havent.
> > I take it you havent read Owen's Mail on the Shell ML.. :-)
>
> I had. He listed some use cases for minimize but not all, he identified
> workspaces as an arguable su
One possible option is to split the desktop into 9 sections (rule of thirds)
and use combinations of those sections as the only size options available.
This would allow easy modulation of existing windows and would be largely
backward-compatible with existing software. Browser windows usually alre
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Vishnoo wrote on 19/03/11 04:31:
>
> On Fri, 2011-03-18 at 16:24 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>>
>> I think the Gnome Shell designers are badly underestimating the use
>> cases for minimize.
>
> No, they havent.
> I take it you havent read Owen'
"""
Why in the world does the *user* need to constantly maximize/restore?
Apps need to open the windows with the right size.
And any app which requires the user to constantly resize is broken.
"""
Maximize does have a lot of very nice use cases, as it can help a user focus
on the task they're tryi
On Fri, 2011-03-18 at 16:24 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> I think the Gnome Shell designers are badly underestimating the use
> cases for minimize.
No, they havent.
I take it you havent read Owen's Mail on the Shell ML.. :-)
They know what use-cases they havent fixed (or dont have a better
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> ...
(I pretty much agree with the paragraphs before, so I'm simply omitting
them...)
> I think the Gnome Shell designers are badly underestimating the use
> cases for minimize.
Maybe... but the problem is, so is Unity, at least currently. It
didn't remove minimizat
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 21:38, Mario Vukelic wrote:
> On Fr, 2011-03-18 at 19:15 +0100, Mitja Pagon wrote:
>> I agree with you, though, that a hint to their existence and anchor
>> (left-of-the-File-menu) would be nice. That can come in a refinement,
>> mockups and patches welcome.
>
> Please for
On Fr, 2011-03-18 at 19:15 +0100, Mitja Pagon wrote:
> I agree with you, though, that a hint to their existence and anchor
> (left-of-the-File-menu) would be nice. That can come in a refinement,
> mockups and patches welcome.
Please forgive me if I provide no link, but there's either a bug report
Hello guys!
If there is no menu item in the hidden menu bar, on mouse over there should
be no action (the title of the application should not be shorten).
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Unsubscr
Menu hiding is one of the risky moves we are making. Initial tests on
unsuspecting users have shown they find 'em quickly and easily enough. I agree
with you, though, that a hint to their existence and anchor
(left-of-the-File-menu) would be nice. That can come in a refinement, mockups
and patc
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Luke Benstead wrote on 17/03/11 13:56:
>...
>> That's looking at it backwards, I think. Screen edges are efficient
>> target areas for whatever is put there. Given that, what should they
>> be used for? Menus are used a lot, ergo, they're a good candid
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Conscious User wrote on 17/03/11 16:14:
>...
> Frankly, this sounds like the kind of heat-of-the-moment workaround
> that brought Unity to its current state in the first place. The
> impression I have is the current design is a pile of workarounds:
>
>
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Vishnoo wrote on 16/03/11 09:34:
>
> On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 17:34 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>...
>> I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
>> mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you
>> mo
+1
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Greg K Nicholson wrote:
> On this subject I'd like to reiterate and support a suggestion
> previously made on this list:
> https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg04555.html
>
> ☮♥☯
> Greg K Nicholson
> http://gkn.me.uk
>
> __
> No Problem:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_(visual_arts)
> Basically, in visual composition, when there are multiple objects
> involved, it becomes pleasing to have one item surrounded by an even
> number of objects (Thus an odd number). Five, IMO, brings clutter,
> particularly to
On this subject I'd like to reiterate and support a suggestion
previously made on this list:
https://lists.launchpad.net/ayatana/msg04555.html
☮♥☯
Greg K Nicholson
http://gkn.me.uk
___
Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
Post to : ayatana@l
"""
This is largely irrelevant since I'm still defending killing
minimization but... what? From where this remarkable certitude
on such a subjective matter, that does not even require any
kind of justification, came from? :)
"""
No Problem:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_(visual_arts)
<
> I don't feel their argument for getting rid of the Minimize button
> applies to Unity. It works great for Gnome, but we still have
> somewhere to minimize windows to in Unity, thus the Minimize button
> has a point.
Several problems here:
1) The "somewhere to minimize to" was only *one* of the
"""
For fixing the gap, I'm going to suggest something controversial,
but that I wanted to suggest for a long time anyway: dropping the
minimize and maximize buttons, following Gnome3's direction and
under their same arguments.
"""
I can see getting rid of the maximize button, as Gnome has a point
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011, Xavier Guillot wrote:
> - For me it is not a problem that window title hides the menu at first
I bet there's a possible solution somewhere with
blurring/transparaceny.
The model used with the notification pop-ups is that they are
transparent to click-events and blur/fade whe
Hello,
My 2 cents also about global menu, as just a normal and daily user (both
personal and professional use of Ubuntu), not a developer nor a
designer. I like it very much as it is right now, because :
- It allows space saving and is very nice
- For me it is not a problem that window title
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 17:14, Conscious User wrote:
> My personal suggestion would be dropping the title in the panel as
> mpt suggested, but keeping the idea of merging the titlebar and the
> panel. This means dropping the title entirely in the maximized
> case, yes. I don't think anyone would r
Ian Santopietro wrote:
> What about flashing the menu with the title for the first, say,
> five seconds that the window is open. That gives an indication as to
> where the menu is, reduces visual clutter, and allows the user to get
> a quick preview of what menu headers are available (File, Edit,
What about flashing the menu with the title for the first, say, five seconds
that the window is open. That gives an indication as to where the menu is,
reduces visual clutter, and allows the user to get a quick preview of what
menu headers are available (File, Edit, etc.) without losing the suppose
>> 1. Someone will bring up Fitt's Law. Yes I know what it is. No, I
>> don't think it should be used as an overriding reason to squash,
>> overlap, and generally complicate a UI and shove it into an edge. I
>> especially don't see why Fitt's law is so important for menu bars,
>> when users get on
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Scott Kitterman wrote on 16/03/11 12:42:
>...
> A bug is a bug no matter who files it. If we're down to it's only a
> real bug if certain people file the bug, then that's a real problem.
>...
I totally agree. I don't think my bug reports should get s
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Luke Benstead wrote on 15/03/11 21:53:
>...
> Erm, I hate to point out the obvious, but why don't we just put the
> menu back in the windows and abandon appmenu as a failed experiment?
> Keep the title and window controls in the panel for maximized win
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Saleel Velankar wrote on 17/03/11 03:27:
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas ...
>> Do you know of any Ubuntu application that was trying to use its menu
>> titles as an "indicator" in the first place?
>...
> Firefox, private brows
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Saleel Velankar wrote on 16/03/11 12:33:
> On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:00:35 AM Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>
>> (It would be interesting to replace maximization with a standard
>> function that really *does* make "all the available screen space ..
I don't think the issue is using titles to display status; rather using
menus. Look at Rhythmbox, Gnome Calculator, Empathy, and a few others.
On Mar 16, 2011 9:28 PM, "Saleel Velankar" wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>
>> Do you know of any Ubuntu application
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> Do you know of any Ubuntu application that was trying to use its menu
> titles as an "indicator" in the first place?
>
> - --
> mpt
>
Firefox, private browsing mode. the tilebar is how private mode status is
conveyed to user.
--
Salee
On 16.03.2011 18:08, David wrote:
Hi,
i just want to add my 2cts
(but its to late for natty so you need to continue anyway ;-))
i think we should really let the user choose and just discussing about
the best default.
See settings.png
Yes, I totally agree on that!
__
On 16.03.2011 10:23, Marc Lajoie wrote:
Advantages to current setup: Increases free vertical space; removes
visual clutter; creates a disincentive to use the menu as an
"indicator" conveying useful information for which it's not suited
(more standardized and consistent menu headings across di
On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 09:42:17 am Vishnoo wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-03-16 at 08:42 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> > > Else, we are in a huge mess, if they are lacking communication too.. :s
> >
> > A bug is a bug no matter who files it. If we're down to it's only a real
> > bug if certain peo
On Wed, 2011-03-16 at 08:42 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> >
> > Else, we are in a huge mess, if they are lacking communication too.. :s
>
> A bug is a bug no matter who files it. If we're down to it's only a real bug
> if certain people file the bug, then that's a real problem.
>
> Scott K
On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 08:35:32 am Vishnoo wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-03-16 at 08:37 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
> > You completely missed my point. Yes, I'm talking about the lack of
> > communication between the design team and the community,
>
> yup, I replied to only that part of your mail..
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Paul Sladen wrote on 16/03/11 11:29:
>
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>>
>> Do you know of any Ubuntu application that was trying to use its menu
>> titles as an "indicator" in the first place?
>
> The Gimp and various other MDI app
On Wed, 2011-03-16 at 08:37 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
>
>
> You completely missed my point. Yes, I'm talking about the lack of
> communication between the design team and the community,
yup, I replied to only that part of your mail.. and referred only to
that part as being re-hashed.. :-)
>
On Wednesday, March 16, 2011 11:00:35 AM Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> (It would be interesting to replace maximization with a standard
> function that really *does* make "all the available screen space ...
> dedicated to this window".)
This is one of the most hated features in osx, imo. It takes
ssues while the benefits are almost non existent, and that is a
>> dictionary example of bad design.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Mitja
>>
>>
>> Mitja Pagon
>>
>>
>> Inueni d.o.o., Pot pod Gradiščem 4, SI 4202 Naklo
>> Tel.: +386 41 521 729
>
> Is it a coincidence that the two of them worked in Open source projects
> _before_ joining Canonical design team..? ;-)
>
> This topic has been hashed, re-hashed over-n-over again several times..
> I, for one, definitely see a huge improvement in communication from the
> design team. Several m
Not off the top of my head (which is not an admission that such applications
don't exist, I just don't have time to hunt through my app catalogue right
now).
But one of the solutions proposed for the hidden menu problem, that of not
showing the title at all for maximized windows, would probably lea
On Wed, 16 Mar 2011, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> Do you know of any Ubuntu application that was trying to use its menu
> titles as an "indicator" in the first place?
The Gimp and various other MDI applications prepend an asterisk ('*')
to the front of the window title to show an edited, but unsav
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Saleel Velankar wrote on 15/03/11 19:39:
>
> On Tuesday, March 15, 2011 5:34:52 PM Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>>
>> I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application title
>> should be removed from Unity's menu bar.
>
> Possibly. The titl
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Marc Lajoie wrote on 16/03/11 09:23:
>...
> Advantages to current setup: Increases free vertical space; removes
> visual clutter; creates a disincentive to use the menu as an
> "indicator" conveying useful information for which it's not suited
> (more
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Chris Coulson wrote on 15/03/11 18:44:
> On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 17:34 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
>...
>> I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application title
>> should be removed from Unity's menu bar. I'm reliably informed that
On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 21:17 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
>
> Remco wrote:
> > The thing I find jarring is that we have this mysterious design
> > team that basically discusses things behind our backs here at
> > Ayatana. I understand that a small team with face-to-face
> > meetings can be benefici
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 10:23:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity
You can drop the ad hominem attacks. The everyone's-stupid-but-me attitude is
not very productive.
Advantages to current setup: Increases free vertical space; removes visual
clu
On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 17:34 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
> installing Natty to test Unity.
>
> I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
> mouse
inueni.com
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Marc Lajoie"
> To: appi2...@gmail.com
> Cc: Ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:20:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default in Unity
>
> I, for one, love the
And what may those advantages be? Not every application is a web browser
and not all applications are the same, so this "trend" Chrome
supposedly started does not automatically apply to all and every
application. Also this quest for abolishing menus is complete nonsense
propagated by people who
Le mardi 15 mars 2011 à 16:37 -0700, Dylan McCall a écrit :
> > After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
> > installing Natty to test Unity.
> >
> > I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
> > mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a wind
I, for one, love the integration of the menu and titlebars into the panel in
Natty. The decluttering of the workspace, or the "chromifization" (as in
Google Chrome, which started the wonderful trend of minimal interfaces and
the hiding of visual clutter) of Ubuntu is the main reason I am looking
fo
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> I see four major problems with hiding the menus and covering them with
> an application or window title.
>
> 1. Most importantly, it makes the menus much harder to use.
>
> 2. It makes some functions effectively invisible.
>
The ab
Remco wrote:
> The thing I find jarring is that we have this mysterious design
> team that basically discusses things behind our backs here at
> Ayatana. I understand that a small team with face-to-face
> meetings can be beneficial to design, but a problem lies in
> communication and collaboratio
> After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
> installing Natty to test Unity.
>
> I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
> mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse
> over it, the space reserved for its menus is tak
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 23:29, Mitja Pagon wrote:
> I've raised this issue before in various places, but I never got any
> response, so I'm really, positively surprised to see the same issues raised
> by someone from Canonical.
I also raised this issue in a bug report[1], and was informed that it
ily
resolved, as it's mostly up to application developers to sort out.
Cheers,
Mitja
- Original Message -
From: "Matthew Paul Thomas"
To: Ayatana@lists.launchpad.net
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:34:52 PM
Subject: [Ayatana] Design problem: Menus hidden by default i
On 15 March 2011 20:13, Vishnoo wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 15:51 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
>>
>> Thorsten Wilms wrote:
>> > The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving
>> > the menu priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important
>> > that the menu always sta
On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 15:51 -0300, Conscious User wrote:
>
> Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> > The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving
> > the menu priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important
> > that the menu always starts in the same spot from the left (assuming
>
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
>
> The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving the menu
> priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important that the menu
> always starts in the same spot from the left (assuming LTR reading
> direction). To guar
On Tuesday, March 15, 2011 5:34:52 PM Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application title
> should be removed from Unity's menu bar.
Possibly. The titlebar is used to differentiate between two windows of the
same app, or less used to differentiate b
The change that you propose might make it harder to see which application a
particular menu belongs to. I think it's that (and the desire to hide a bit
of messy interface) that led to the current situation, although I've no
citation on it.
I think in having it always-menu, care would need to be t
Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> The alternative would be to show both title and menu, but giving
> the menu priority. For habituation and quick aiming, it's important
> that the menu always starts in the same spot from the left (assuming
> LTR reading direction). To guarantee that, without using an offse
On Tue, 2011-03-15 at 17:34 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
> installing Natty to test Unity.
>
> I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
> mouse
On 03/15/2011 06:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote:
I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse
over it, the space reserved for its menus is taken up by an application
or window title. And for the d
I can verify that hiding the menus by default is problematic in my
(limited) user testing.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Matthew Paul Thomas
wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
> installing Natty to test
> I have a simple proposal to fix these problems: The application
> title should be removed from Unity's menu bar. I'm reliably
> informed that this would be extremely low risk, in that it
> would involve changing two lines of code.
But how would be the design for maximized windows? I'm guessing
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After several weeks of trying, last week I finally succeeded in
installing Natty to test Unity.
I was disappointed to see that in Unity, menus are invisible until you
mouse over where they are supposed to be. For a window, until you mouse
over it, the
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