Re: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Brian Butterworth]

On 15/04/2008, Mr I Forrester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Come on guys, enough microsoft/adobe jokes.
>
> If you could seriously put someone into the position of director of future
> media and technology who would it be and what qualities would you be looking
> for?
>
> I guess I shouldn't really say who I'd like to see, otherwise it will
> appear in the guardian or something. :)


Oh right, you mean like this...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/apr/14/bbc.digitalmedia1

"The former Microsoft executive Erik Huggers"


Rob Myers wrote:
>
> > Brian Butterworth wrote:
> >
> >  Cool.  Can I apply for his post please?
> > >
> >
> > That depends. What work experience do you have at Microsoft?
> >
> > - Rob.
> > -
> > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
> > please visit
> > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> >  Unofficial list archive:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >
>
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Re: [backstage] BBC tells ISPs to get stuffed

[Brian Butterworth]

On 15/04/2008, David Tomlinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I think the ISPs have a point ... the ADSL network is (currently)
> > like a collection of country roads (narrow and fairly slow) which the
> > BBC is trying to drive it's supersize juggernauts down. Think the
> > ISPs should use some form of traffic shaping for iPlayer traffic and
> > that the BBC and other such companies should fess up some of the
> > costs involved in improving the network if they want to use the net
> > to push their weighty products.
> >
> >
> >  But BT runs a backbone called Colossus (the clue is in the name), it is
> only the obsolete Asynchronous Transfer Mode equipment that BT has been
> forcing people to use, that is the problem. LLU exchanges avoid this, as
>  does the Wholesale Broadband Connect which is to be rolled out (to 800+
> exchanges) over the next year.


Sound like a company that still thinks that it is a monopoly to me...  :-D

I left the company after about the nth time I couldn't explain that data
delivery did not have to be synchronous: ATM means they are still wedded to
the old SDH (Synchronous Digital Hierarchy)!


The BBC should not be paying for this BT have been retarding bandwidth
> growth in the UK for years.


Still winds me up that BT refused to get fibre optics to the door, claiming
that their copper network was an 'asset'.  Still, they used to blame that
one on Maggie Thatcher, actually.   I HATE ADSL, it's such a broadcaster
idea of a data connection, it is an offense to everything truly TCP/IP.


There may be a short (or long) term squeeze for some ISP's and for non-LLU
> customers of LLU ISP's.


Or, as I said, we could install some mirror servers just next to the pipes
until this old-fashioned network gets replaced by something 21st century.


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Re: [backstage] Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:07:17 +0100

[Brian Butterworth]

On 14/04/2008, Fearghas McKay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Brian
>
> On 14 Apr 2008, at 17:38, Brian Butterworth wrote:
>
> >
> > It would be lovely if you read my email to the end first!
> >
>
> It would be even better if you could learn to quote selectively.



Sorry, I used Gmail and it does it for me.

[approx 72 lines snipped]
>
> Going back on topic - your proposals were designed for the network 10
> years ago - it has changed since then both topographically and economically.


Yes, they have changed a little.  I do not live under a rock.My 'ten
years ago' bit was because I was just pointing out that it is hardly a new
problem.


There are no server facililties close to the ISPs customer, where close is
> defined as being cheap to deliver to the end user, the ISPs pay more for UK
> transit over the BT Wholesale networks than they do for International
> transit. That and dodgy marketing decisions by some players are what cause
> the financial pain.


So, the ISPs are lying when they say they are having to pay more to get
extra pipes from BT?

If they are, then I'm sorry for propsing that they allow the BBC to put
iPlayer mirror servers 'just next to' each pipe.

If they are not, I think it would be a good way of getting a compromise,
possibly better than 'naming and shaming'.

Indeed it could allow ISPs to say they have EXTRA FAST access to the
iPlayer.


   f
> -
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Re: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Brian Butterworth]

On 14/04/2008, Rob Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Brian Butterworth wrote:
>
>  Cool.  Can I apply for his post please?
> >
>
> That depends. What work experience do you have at Microsoft?


I worked with Microsoft for years, I've had to major peices of interface
with them.


- Rob.
> -
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Re: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Mr I Forrester]

Come on guys, enough microsoft/adobe jokes.

If you could seriously put someone into the position of director of 
future media and technology who would it be and what qualities would you 
be looking for?


I guess I shouldn't really say who I'd like to see, otherwise it will 
appear in the guardian or something. :)


Rob Myers wrote:

Brian Butterworth wrote:


Cool.  Can I apply for his post please?


That depends. What work experience do you have at Microsoft?

- Rob.
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Re: [backstage] Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:07:17 +0100

[David Tomlinson]

There is only one solution:

Bigger Pipes and Infrastructure competition, or if that is not practical
(FTTH) a Government project.

It is not just me who says this:
http://gigaom.com/2008/04/10/why-fixing-internet-capacity-keeps-the-telcos-honest/

"Without fixing the bandwidth shortage on the wire or in the protocols,
we make it easy for carriers to claim that they need to regulate
bandwidth in order to survive. If we can fix the bandwidth and
efficiency problems, we take away one of the main reasons telcos claim
they need to shape traffic and interfere with the Internet."




The latest between BT and Ofcom.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/telecoms/article3735500.ece

On which I would comment, just don't have time right now.

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Re: [backstage] BBC tells ISPs to get stuffed

[David Tomlinson]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I think the ISPs have a point ... the ADSL network is (currently)
like a collection of country roads (narrow and fairly slow) which the
BBC is trying to drive it's supersize juggernauts down. Think the
ISPs should use some form of traffic shaping for iPlayer traffic and
that the BBC and other such companies should fess up some of the
costs involved in improving the network if they want to use the net
to push their weighty products.



But BT runs a backbone called Colossus (the clue is in the name), it is
only the obsolete Asynchronous Transfer Mode equipment that BT has been
forcing people to use, that is the problem. LLU exchanges avoid this, as 
  does the Wholesale Broadband Connect which is to be rolled out (to 
800+ exchanges) over the next year.


The BBC should not be paying for this BT have been retarding bandwidth 
growth in the UK for years.


There may be a short (or long) term squeeze for some ISP's and for 
non-LLU customers of LLU ISP's.

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Re: [backstage] BBC tells ISPs to get stuffed

[David Tomlinson]

Carlos Roman wrote:



Be do have a fair use policy (https://www.bethere.co.uk/fairusage.do) but no actual 
mention of what they define as "excessive network usage". I think they were 
quoted as saying that it was if you downloaded more than 80 GB a month (which so far I've 
never been penalised for). When O2 called me up to see if I wanted to sign up to their 
ADSL packages I asked about their data usage. Again they touted about it being unlimited 
downloads. So I repeated my question again and again, same answer until I ask about their 
fair use policy. At that point the operator went very quiet put me on hold and came back 
with the statement that they do have a fair use policy but it isn't enforced at the 
moment. They are planning at some point to enforce it but they couldn't say when and they 
also couldn't say how much the cap would be. Again they mentioned the same as can be 
found on Be's fair use policy about not abusing the network and you'd be fine.

So what probably will happen is that once they've over subscribed users like 
Orange, CPW and Sky did and their network can't take it they'll implement usage 
caps like everyone else. Let's just hope they don't become too popular :)



If they own their own infrastructure, vertical integration, like Sky, 
they really do not need to limit usage (other than by the stated 
capacity of the service e.g. 8 or 24Mb/s).


The growth in the capacity of equipment is adequate to service demand, 
which is rising at 40% per annum, internationally (See DSLPrime).

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[backstage] Manchester Free Software Meeting :: John Leach :: 15th April :: MDDA :: 7PM :: Reminder

[Tim Dobson]

Who?


John Leach from Brightbox and Everyone Loves Eric Raymond


Where?
==

Manchester Digital Development Agency (MDDA)
Portland Street
Manchester
M1 6ED


Directions
==

http://www.manchesterdda.com/directions/


When?
=

7pm, Tuesday, 15th April.

More info on the Manchester Free Software web site:

http://manchester.fsuk.org/blog/2008/03/27/john-leach-%e2%80%94-15th-april-2008/

If you're coming, please feel free to add yourself to the FSF Groups
wiki page:-

http://groups.fsf.org/index.php/Manchester/2008-04-15


Lightning Talks
===

We do have room for one, possibly two lightning talks, if you're
interested please sign up at:

http://groups.fsf.org/index.php/Manchester/2008-04-15


This Month's Meeting


This month we have John Leach coming to tell us all about the
history, life and times of Everybody Loves Eric Raymond, and
talking about his new free software hosting outfit, Brightbox,
which hosts Ruby on Rails web apps.

John Leach is a free software hacker from Leeds. He is the creator
of the web comic, Everybody Loves Eric Raymond, which stars
Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds and Eric Raymond living in a
house somewhere for some reason. As Richard Stallman said "It is
funny, but I'm disappointed that it accentuates the shallow."

Random free software fact: John Leach is able to draw by
harnessing the power of economic coercion and forcing it into his
USB port.


About Manchester Free Software Group


Manchester Free Software was formed in response to a growing
apparent need for a group based in the Manchester area that
focuses on Free Software and GNU/Linux primarily, but also on
issues such as Digital Restrictions Management and other issues
which infringe on the freedoms of computer users.

All our meetings take place at Manchester Digital Development
Agency (MDDA), on Portland Street.

http://www.manchesterdda.com/directions/


Come and speak for us!
==

If you've got a project and you'd like to talk for 15 mins, 30
mins or even up to an hour about it, let us know.


Formal Meeting
==

In addition to the talk, there will be a formal meeting at 17:30. The
current agenda can be found at:

http://groups.fsf.org/index.php/Manchester/2008-04-15/Agenda


--
www.tdobson.net

If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us
still has one object.
If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now
has two ideas.   -  George Bernard Shaw


--
www.tdobson.net

If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us
still has one object.
If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now
has two ideas.   -  George Bernard Shaw
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer in Wii

[Dogsbody]

LOL, my GF sent this to me almost as soon as the news release came out! 
she wants this so badly!


And now she is complaining to me that programs seem to be missing or 
broken on the Wii version.  :-(


We went to watch Dr Who Confidential last night, the show stopped 
after 10mins... the flash video just ended.  Today she went to watch 
the I'd do anything results show and it comes up with an error message 
on the Wii but works fine on the PC :-/


I realise the Wii version is in Beta but I said I would let you know :-)

Dan
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Re: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Tim Dobson]

Ivan Pope wrote:

Personally, I vote for Tony Ageh!


When it comes to voting, then there are several people i would prefer.
However, i don't expect it will be a vote for us ;)


--
www.tdobson.net

If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us
still has one object.
If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now
has two ideas.   -  George Bernard Shaw
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Re: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Rob Myers]

Brian Butterworth wrote:


Cool.  Can I apply for his post please?


That depends. What work experience do you have at Microsoft?

- Rob.
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[backstage] Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:07:17 +0100

[Fearghas McKay]

Brian

On 14 Apr 2008, at 17:38, Brian Butterworth wrote:


It would be lovely if you read my email to the end first!


It would be even better if you could learn to quote selectively.

[approx 72 lines snipped]

Going back on topic - your proposals were designed for the network 10  
years ago - it has changed since then both topographically and  
economically.


There are no server facililties close to the ISPs customer, where  
close is defined as being cheap to deliver to the end user, the ISPs  
pay more for UK transit over the BT Wholesale networks than they do  
for International transit. That and dodgy marketing decisions by some  
players are what cause the financial pain.


f
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer and the ISPs - a solution

[Brian Butterworth]

On 14/04/2008, Paul Doyle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> BBC chief quits to launch online service
> http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/202eab38-09ae-11dd-81bf-779fd2ac.html
>
> Ashley Highfield, the BBC's director of future media and technology,
> is leaving the corporation to launch a joint online video platform for
> the BBC, ITV   and Channel 4 which the broadcasters hope will be "a
> Freeview for the internet".
>
> "His appointment as chief executive of the on-demand service,
> code-named Kangaroo..."



So called, of course, because it's in the pocket of PACT :-D


Brian Butterworth
http://www.ukfree.tv

Re: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Brian Butterworth]

Cool.  Can I apply for his post please?

On 14/04/2008, Ivan Pope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Ashley Highfield, the BBC's most senior technology executive, is leaving
> after eight years to launch the broadband TV service being developed as a
> joint venture between the corporation, ITV and Channel 4.
>
>
> Highfield will become chief executive of project Kangaroo, an initiative
> planned by the BBC, ITV and Channel 4 to encourage further takeup of online
> video.
>
>
> The move was reported in this morning's Financial Times and is expected to
> be confirmed by the BBC today.
>
>
> His appointment will be a significant boost to the project as it seeks to
> make crucial agreements with content partners and internet service
> providers, aiming to "do for broadband what Freeview did for digital TV".
>
> --
> Ivan Pope
> Snipperoo
>
> Widget Conference WebWidgetExpo
> June 16 & 17 2008 New York
> http://widgetwebexpo.com
>
> 50 Providence Place
> BN1 4GE Brighton
>
> 01273808458
>
> blog.snipperoo.com
> directory.snipperoo.com




-- 
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer and the ISPs - a solution

[Brian Butterworth]

Andy,

It would be lovely if you read my email to the end first!

On 14/04/2008, Andy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Brian Butterworth wrote:
> > 1. so the great evil here is probably the BT wholesale
>
> > provision which seems to be behaving somewhat monopolisticly, which is a
> > tendency that I know BT has.
>
>
> Abuse of dominant position is prohibited under Section 18 of the
> Competition Act 1998[1]. If BT are "behaving somewhat monopolisticly"
> shouldn't Ofcom do something about it?
>
>
> > 2. Use transparent or non-transparent PROXY SERVERS.
>
>
> As stated earlier it is unsafe to cache protocols you can't understand.
> Thus the BBC is blocking the ISPs from using this course of action.
> The BBC however should immediately cease this practice and use a
> protocol that ISPs can cache if they want. (HTTP has support for caching
> built into it, how forward thinking of them).
>
>
> > but my experience of them is that transparent proxies reduce overall
> > performance because they need to get in the way of each and every HTTP
> > transaction.
>
>
> I wouldn't have thought that the small increase in latency would be
> noticeable for a several hundred megabyte file.
>
>
> > 3. Store and forward: Locate MIRROR SERVERS inside the ISP network.
> > This seems a much better idea.
>
>
> It sounds a lot like some kind of Cache. And another question is *who*
> is going to pay for the servers that speak RTMP? This sounds like some
> kind of revenue driving scheme for the BBC's commercial friends.
>
>
> > the ISP provide the BBC with rack
> > space 'inside' their networks for mirror servers.
>
>
> A generic cache would be much more scalable, if the servers only mirror
> BBC data then this does nothing to solve problems with other sites.
>
> How does one mirror this data? Will it be available via rsync? Will it
> be mirrorable by *anyone* or does the BBC intend to pick and chose
> commercial ISPs to provide better access to. Again very shaky ground.
>
>
> > - change the main BBC iPlayer to redirect requests for the content to
> > the Mirror Server located in the ISPs network.
>
>
> Really unscalable, how is the BBC going to know which ISPs have mirrors
> and which do not? This would require each ISP to notify the BBC. Just
> seems wrong. Having every Content Provider have to speak to every ISP
> seems to go against the core of the Internet.
>
> If a pipe on the Internet is not running at 100% it is being underused!
>
> Andy
>
> [1]
> <
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/ukpga_19980041_en_2#pt1-ch2-pb2-l1g18
> >
>
> -
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>



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Re: [backstage] iPlayer and the ISPs - a solution

[Frank Wales]

Mr I Forrester wrote:

   Virgin Media CEO Says Net Neutrality is “A Load of Bollocks”

The new CEO of Virgin Media is putting his cards on the table early, 
branding net neutrality “a load of bollocks” and claiming he’s already 
doing deals to deliver some people’s content faster than others. If you 
aren’t prepared to cough up the extra cash, he says he’ll put you in the 
Internet “bus lane”.


http://torrentfreak.com/virgin-media-ceo-says-net-neutrality-is-a-load-of-bollocks-080413/ 


I think the interesting statement in this article is:


With around 3.5 million customers in the UK, and already traffic shaping due to 
lack of capacity, [...]


Or, in other words: "Having signed up far more customers than their
existing technical infrastructure can handle, [...]".

I bet this guy would get on really well with that other bozo who, as head of
some US TV network, claimed that skipping commercials was stealing the 
programmes,
since both of them seem to want the world to change so that their business 
models can work.
--
Frank Wales [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [backstage] iPlayer and the ISPs - a solution

[Christopher Woods]

> Virgin Media CEO Says Net Neutrality is "A Load of Bollocks"
> 
> 
> The new CEO of Virgin Media is putting his cards on the table 
> early, branding net neutrality "a load of bollocks" and 
> claiming he's already doing deals to deliver some people's 
> content faster than others. If you aren't prepared to cough 
> up the extra cash, he says he'll put you in the Internet "bus lane".


Aaand watch VM's customers rapidly jump ship and their profits sink
lower and lower. VM's new CEO hasn't a clue what he's on about (either that
or he's just putting on a bullish face for the investors). I would've left
already if I wasn't tied into a contract (going right back to LLU if things
stay the way they are)... Amazing how a company can mess things up so
completely within the space of a calendar year!

With their 24 hour STM on the way (not confirmed yet, but the 'deafening
silence' from all tech support and VM points of contact making the intention
quite clear) and various other factors (horrible overcrowding on core
network, widespread problems and issues running the gamut from billing to
poor installation) that company is realy suffering. It needs a tender loving
hand and a good injection of cash, and that's just not going to happen in
the next few years.

Still, the company's being led by the marketing department, most recently
commencing the rollout of speed upgrades of middle tier customers to more
than double their previous peak bandwidth (the 4 -> 10mbps uplift) while
doubling the top tier from 10mbps to 20mbps last July/August and
implementing aggressive 'traffic management' at the same time... That and
the Phorm issue has been the icing on the cake for some.

Oh, and they're going to announce that everyone's bills are rising by a
(seemingly) arbitrary amount from next month - but it's news to me as I
heard about it on the newsgroups and still haven't had my letter from VM
yet! Let's see if 30 days' notice is really 30 days ;)


Much has been said about their past year's decisions, and many concur that
they've not acted very sensibly. Maybe BT will buy them in five years when
they're on the verge of bankruptcy and use their existing network to roll
out fibre... And it would need is a little more fibre laid, all the
trunking's already there!

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RE: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Andrew Bowden]

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/apr/14/bbc.digitalmedia1
> (registration possibly required)

I like that.  It's got an element of someone tracing their finger over
our departmental organisational chart, and then writing the names down
into an article [1] :)


[1] not that I'm saying anyone did do that!

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Re: [backstage] iPlayer and the ISPs - a solution

[Mr I Forrester]

   This might have got missed by the list...



   Virgin Media CEO Says Net Neutrality is “A Load of Bollocks”


The new CEO of Virgin Media is putting his cards on the table early, 
branding net neutrality “a load of bollocks” and claiming he’s already 
doing deals to deliver some people’s content faster than others. If you 
aren’t prepared to cough up the extra cash, he says he’ll put you in the 
Internet “bus lane”.


http://torrentfreak.com/virgin-media-ceo-says-net-neutrality-is-a-load-of-bollocks-080413/ 


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Re: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Ivan Pope]

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Tim Dobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> In other news, Microsoft and Adobe employees are been encouraged to
> send the BBC their CVs.
>
> ;)
>
> >I joke, I joke<


Not much:

"There's a belief that [Huggers] was brought in specially and was being
trained up for the job," said the insider, who added that Huggers was well
respected within the corporation.


"He makes stuff happen and is very hands-on. He is a very accomplished
public speaker, has a very broad knowledge and will knock heads together."


The source also said Huggers may find it difficult to move from a very
delivery-focused, practical role to the politics of the corporation's top
digital media job. "Ashley's job is 85% politics, 15% doing things. It will
be interesting to see how [Huggers] does."


Huggers' appointment is likely to draw criticism from some in the industry,
who claim the BBC has worked too closely with Microsoft.


Personally, I vote for Tony Ageh!


Ivan

>
>
> /me hides
>
> On 14/04/2008, Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Monday 14 April 2008 10:25:52 Ivan Pope wrote:
> > > The move was reported in this morning's Financial Times and is
> expected to
> > > be confirmed by the BBC today.
> >
> >
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bbcworldwide/worldwidestories/pressreleases/2008/04_april/ashley_highfield_kangaroo.shtml
> >
> >
> > Michael.
> > -
> > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
> please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >
>
>
> --
> www.tdobson.net
> 
> If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us
> still has one object.
> If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now
> has two ideas.   -  George Bernard Shaw
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RE: [backstage] BBC tells ISPs to get stuffed

[Darren Stephens]

Well, this is a slightly (but only slightly) more cynical reading of the 
situation than I would make but there's a lot of truth there.

In defence of ISP's they do have some other pressures to deal with (like the 
statement of the bleedin' obvious that was the Byron report and the rumblings 
from Westminster as a result) and increasing pressure from government and other 
agencies to put measures in place to ensure compliance with RIPA for example.  
And, of course, the walled garden model has worked for mobile internet for 
telecoms for some time now. I say worked because I still find it something of 
an abomination.  This idea though must have some appeal for them if they are 
going to get leant on very hard by legislators without a clue about how all 
this actually works.  We also have to filter this through the fact that 
broadband services and access are now beginning to break into the mass market. 
While many of us may like to customise and tinker (for want of a better thing 
to say) the fact remains that most consumers now see computing and internet 
access in the same light as they see other consumer electronics and even white 
goods. The pressure to package and hermetically seal is driven by a consumer 
demand for neat, easy solutions.

Which leaves those of us who don't want that in a strange place. And worse of 
course, the BBC is now pushing iPlayer as a mass market product. It is making 
life for ISP's more difficult. Certainly as in many parts of the market it is 
not a hugely profitable operation to run (hence all the recent consolidations). 
Still, I don't blame the BBC for this: while ISP''s still like to cling in some 
ways to the idea of "common carrier" they must then accept, as a consequence, 
that the value added services (like iPlayer) are going to come from elsewhere. 
And they should stop complaining about it.


===
Darren Stephens MBCS CITP
School of Arts and New Media
University of Hull
Scarborough Campus
www   : http://www.hull.ac.uk/
email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
=== 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ivan Pope
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 5:14 PM
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC tells ISPs to get stuffed

Andy,
Great post. 
It could be boiled down to one word: 'Phorm' (or Phormography as it should be 
known).
ISPs want you to pay, then they want to sell you to the highest bidder, then 
they want to cap you, then they want to shape your traffic.
But they don't want to tell you.
Don't let them Phorm you.
Ivan
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Andy Halsall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Wednesday 09 April 2008 14:32:45 Andy wrote:
> Mr I Forrester wrote:
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/03/bbc_highfield_isp_threat/
>
> The saga continues courtesy of the Reg.
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/09/bbc_tiscali_iplayer/
> (BBC vs ISPs: Bandwidth row escalates as Tiscali wades in)
>
> ISPs seem to be upset by the idea they should provide customers with
> what they pay for!
In the case of ISP's this is sadly very true, even more so if you consider the
direction of their business models. Let me explain:

At present the only reason for the general public to buy internet 'access'
(regardles of how it is bundled) is to access resources and content available
on the web.  Without those resources and content there would be no need for
ISP's.  It doesn't matter how fast or fabulous a data connection is, the
whole point of the exercise is to use that connection to get at all those
lovely resources.

The unfortunate but more and more obvious direction some ISP's are going in is
the old (as I remember it) AOL model.  This is where the ISP provides certain
services of their own (like mail and premium content, possibly streaming
video etc..) from within their own networks.  This is cheap for them to do
and in theory the provision of premium ISP provided content means that they
can squeeze more money out of their customers (pay to download wallpaper, a
film, some oftware etc..).  The web outside of their own network is not
useful to them except as a lure, they cant (yet) charge you for using amazon,
or google services, or somehow bill you extra for the e-books you download
from project Gutenberg).  As such some ISP's increasingly see external
content providers (especially anything that involves a large amount of
traffic) and the web in general (which competes with their own services) as a
negative and costly addition.

So, the BBC needs to (and is) fight(ing) its corner, as it should, customers
pay for web access, content providers pay for web access, there is no need
for additional charges to be levied to any particular group for specific
services (in fact it breaks the web).

The obvious solution is for the various ISP's to charge correctly for what
they provide, a 8/1M connection should be just that, if it is capped then
fine, make that clear, charge more for uncapped i

Re: [backstage] iPlayer and the ISPs - a solution

[Peter Bowyer]

On 14/04/2008, Steve Jolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Andy wrote:
> > Brian Butterworth wrote:
> >
> > > 1. so the great evil here is probably the BT wholesale
> > > provision which seems to be behaving somewhat monopolisticly, which is a
> > > tendency that I know BT has.
> > >
> >
> > Abuse of dominant position is prohibited under Section 18 of the
> > Competition Act 1998[1]. If BT are "behaving somewhat monopolisticly"
> > shouldn't Ofcom do something about it?
> >
>
> I believe that the wholesale price of IPStream ADSL is regulated by Ofcom
> already.  Cutting it drastically would kick the legs out from under LLU.

As part of its undertakings to Ofcom which led to the split-off of
Openreach (and not the enforced sale of the access business or the
wholesale business), BT committed to fix IPStream wholesale pricing at
its then level until the LLU installed base had reached 1.5M lines.
This milestone was passed about a year ago[1], and the price of
IPStream is now unregulated.

Peter

[1] http://www.offta.org.uk/charts.htm
-- 
Peter Bowyer
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/peeebeee
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer and the ISPs - a solution

[Steve Jolly]

Andy wrote:

Brian Butterworth wrote:

1. so the great evil here is probably the BT wholesale
provision which seems to be behaving somewhat monopolisticly, which is a
tendency that I know BT has.


Abuse of dominant position is prohibited under Section 18 of the
Competition Act 1998[1]. If BT are "behaving somewhat monopolisticly"
shouldn't Ofcom do something about it?


I believe that the wholesale price of IPStream ADSL is regulated by 
Ofcom already.  Cutting it drastically would kick the legs out from 
under LLU.


S

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Re: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Steve Jolly]

Tim Dobson wrote:

In other news, Microsoft and Adobe employees are been encouraged to
send the BBC their CVs.

;)


I joke, I joke<


/me hides


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/apr/14/bbc.digitalmedia1

(registration possibly required)

S

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Re: [backstage] iPlayer and the ISPs - a solution

[Andy]

Brian Butterworth wrote:
> 1. so the great evil here is probably the BT wholesale
> provision which seems to be behaving somewhat monopolisticly, which is a
> tendency that I know BT has.

Abuse of dominant position is prohibited under Section 18 of the
Competition Act 1998[1]. If BT are "behaving somewhat monopolisticly"
shouldn't Ofcom do something about it?

> 2. Use transparent or non-transparent PROXY SERVERS.

As stated earlier it is unsafe to cache protocols you can't understand.
Thus the BBC is blocking the ISPs from using this course of action.
The BBC however should immediately cease this practice and use a
protocol that ISPs can cache if they want. (HTTP has support for caching
built into it, how forward thinking of them).

> but my experience of them is that transparent proxies reduce overall
> performance because they need to get in the way of each and every HTTP
> transaction.

I wouldn't have thought that the small increase in latency would be
noticeable for a several hundred megabyte file.

> 3. Store and forward: Locate MIRROR SERVERS inside the ISP network. 
> This seems a much better idea.

It sounds a lot like some kind of Cache. And another question is *who*
is going to pay for the servers that speak RTMP? This sounds like some
kind of revenue driving scheme for the BBC's commercial friends.

> the ISP provide the BBC with rack
> space 'inside' their networks for mirror servers.

A generic cache would be much more scalable, if the servers only mirror
BBC data then this does nothing to solve problems with other sites.

How does one mirror this data? Will it be available via rsync? Will it
be mirrorable by *anyone* or does the BBC intend to pick and chose
commercial ISPs to provide better access to. Again very shaky ground.

> - change the main BBC iPlayer to redirect requests for the content to
> the Mirror Server located in the ISPs network.

Really unscalable, how is the BBC going to know which ISPs have mirrors
and which do not? This would require each ISP to notify the BBC. Just
seems wrong. Having every Content Provider have to speak to every ISP
seems to go against the core of the Internet.

If a pipe on the Internet is not running at 100% it is being underused!

Andy

[1]

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Re: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Tim Dobson]

In other news, Microsoft and Adobe employees are been encouraged to
send the BBC their CVs.

;)

>I joke, I joke<

/me hides

On 14/04/2008, Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Monday 14 April 2008 10:25:52 Ivan Pope wrote:
> > The move was reported in this morning's Financial Times and is expected to
> > be confirmed by the BBC today.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bbcworldwide/worldwidestories/pressreleases/2008/04_april/ashley_highfield_kangaroo.shtml
>
>
> Michael.
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-- 
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If each of us have one object, and we exchange them, then each of us
still has one object.
If each of us have one idea, and we exchange them, then each of us now
has two ideas.   -  George Bernard Shaw
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Re: [backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Michael]

On Monday 14 April 2008 10:25:52 Ivan Pope wrote:
> The move was reported in this morning's Financial Times and is expected to
> be confirmed by the BBC today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/bbcworldwide/worldwidestories/pressreleases/2008/04_april/ashley_highfield_kangaroo.shtml


Michael.
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[backstage] Ashley Highfield leaves BBC (almost)

[Ivan Pope]

Ashley Highfield, the BBC's most senior technology executive, is leaving
after eight years to launch the broadband TV service being developed as a
joint venture between the corporation, ITV and Channel 4.


Highfield will become chief executive of project Kangaroo, an initiative
planned by the BBC, ITV and Channel 4 to encourage further takeup of online
video.


The move was reported in this morning's Financial Times and is expected to
be confirmed by the BBC today.


His appointment will be a significant boost to the project as it seeks to
make crucial agreements with content partners and internet service
providers, aiming to "do for broadband what Freeview did for digital TV".

-- 
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Snipperoo

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BN1 4GE Brighton

01273808458

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RE: [backstage] DAB rollout...

[Andrew Bowden]

> The first para is the claim is that the high transmission costs are 
> currently making DAB unviable for commercial broadcasters. Many DAB 
> stations are earning a profit - including, I understand, Planet Rock
and 
> the Jazz - but nowhere near the kind of profit margins that commercial

> radio's used to. Fru needed to add to the profit-to-earnings ratio
that 
> Fru's shareholders expected at the time to stave off a takeover.
Removing 
> the DAB stations assisted her in this. Note that none have actually
closed 
> as yet. 

I believe theJazz has closed on DAB and has "officially" closed
according to its website.  Interestingly there is still a channel on the
Sky EPG called "theJazz".

Not the first time a channel has closed and remained on Sky - I spotted
the Virgin Radio Groove on Sky in March despite the station having
"closed" at the end of 2007.

PlanetRock on the other hand has a stay of execution until the end of
the month apparently because sale discussions were promising.  That
decision was taken before Global's bid was accepted of course - and
already Gcap have announced the prosponement of some of Fru's plans
(including the sale of its stake in DigitalOne and the sale of two of
the XFM stations)

We now return you to our normal programmes.


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Re: [backstage] iPlayer and the ISPs - a solution

[Paul Doyle]

BBC chief quits to launch online service
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/202eab38-09ae-11dd-81bf-779fd2ac.html

Ashley Highfield, the BBC's director of future media and technology,
is leaving the corporation to launch a joint online video platform for
the BBC, ITV   and Channel 4 which the broadcasters hope will be "a
Freeview for the internet".

"His appointment as chief executive of the on-demand service,
code-named Kangaroo..."




2008/4/14 Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I have to say that I am very impressed with Ashly Highfield at the moment.
> His defense of the public interest and also of BBC money is worthy of high
> praise.
>
> He is 100% correct when he says that the Internet Service Providers should
> provide an Internet service.  The whole way the Internet has developed (and
> I've been using ever since it could be reached in the UK) has required ISPs
> to buy bigger and bigger pipes, to support more and more users.  The
> economics (which I have gone into before) provides that the more you buy,
> the cheaper each bit becomes.
>
> The ISPs (just to recap) are complaining because they need more capacity
> because the BBC iPlayer is popular, and people are suddenly watching whole
> half-hour and hour-long programmes, streamed from the BBC's servers.
>
> I am of the mind that if you are a Internet host (like the BBC in this case)
> then you pay for your end of the connection to the cloud and the end-user
> pays for theirs via their ISP.
>
> So, Mr Highfield is correct to reject the idea that the BBC should pay for
> ISPs Internet pipes.
>
> However, I wrote a paper about this when I worked at BT Broadcast Services
> (about ten years ago, in fact) about dealing with this situation, and as I
> recall (I don't have it here with me on Crete) there are a few ways to deal
> with it:
>
> 1. ISPs by BIGGER PIPES and upgrade their network.  This is 100% the correct
> answer in the long run.  Moore's Law tends to work at a bit-delivery level,
> so the great evil here is probably the BT wholesale provision which seems to
> be behaving somewhat monopolisticly, which is a tendency that I know BT has.
>
> 2. Use transparent or non-transparent PROXY SERVERS.  This might work, but
> my experience of them is that transparent proxies reduce overall performance
> because they need to get in the way of each and every HTTP transaction.
> Non-transparent proxies are fine on corporate and educational networks
> because you deny access to people who do not use them, or you can do
> complicated configuration scripts.
>
> 3. Store and forward: Locate MIRROR SERVERS inside the ISP network.  This
> seems a much better idea.  Rather than the ISP being given BBC cash, which
> is an intolerable idea, the ISP provide the BBC with rack space 'inside'
> their networks for mirror servers.  These could work in one of two ways:
>
> - use DNS to redirect the requests for content (the massive files that are
> the video 'streams') to these servers.
>
> - change the main BBC iPlayer to redirect requests for the content to the
> Mirror Server located in the ISPs network.
>
> DNS is a tricy beast and almost impossible to manage in these situations,
> due to the way it is cached.  If people switch networks regularly, which
> they do, DNS trickery can turn into a nightmare.
>
> The second solution is clearly a better one.  The iPlayer already checks the
> end-users IP address to ensure that they are in the UK.
>
> It would be very simple to check to see if the users is in the range for a
> particular ISP and issue a HTTP redirect (or similar) to the ISPs server to
> get the content.
>
> The BBC would simply have to provide servers for each ISP which are fed with
> each of the iPlayer content files when they are produced, and manage the IP
> address lists for each server on a central BBC machine.
>
> This would mean transferring each file to the BBC machine inside the ISP
> network just once, and this would take seconds as it would be out there in
> the 'fat pipe' bit of the cloud.
>
> Finally, the client Flash Player software would need to know that if the
> content could not be obtained for some reason from the BBC machine inside
> the ISPs network, by calling back to the main BBC iPlayer server with an
> extra parameter.
>
> The BBC could argue that the ISP should provide these mirror servers, but as
> the hardware and storage costs of much machines is 'tiny' (and fixed) it
> would be better for these to remain under BBC control, from a management and
> responsibility point of view.
>
> Now, cut the crap and make it happen...
>
> Brian Butterworth
> http://www.ukfree.tv
>
>
>
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