Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 19:26, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 18:57, Scot McSweeney-Roberts I don’t think _anybody_ claimed that Apple was “open”. Apple have, however, become far _more_ open than they were, and are continuing to do so. And I'd say they're about as closed as they ever were. Apple's most open products were the non Steve Jobs ones (the Apple II series, the Netwon and the Pippin had it been released). The Mac was at it's most open when SJ wasn't around, and the iPxxx series are all about making things even more closed. Do you actually use any Apple products or pay any attention to changes due to land in upcoming OS releases, or is your information almost exclusively based on news reports and anecdotes? I still use my Netwon. My powerbook has been sitting in a cupboard since it's power supply went. I retired my 4400 (running debian as a server) last year. I have another 8 Apples (a //e, a III, a Lisa and several Macs of various vintage) in storage. As an apostate apple fan boy I still find myself keeping up with what Apple are doing even though I have no intention of going back to the them any time soon. If you want Atom support, patch it yourself. And end up with what, a Darwin based BSD experience? In that case I'd save myself time and stick with FreeBSD. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
You've be forgiven for thinking this was a BBC list - what with all the postings about Apple and all - I know it's a bit OT, but apparently a British company (X2) are touting an 'iTablet' that looks to be anything but closed: http://bit.ly/dojyX9 Not a peep on news.bbc.co.uk - but I guess that's to be expected these days. On Sat, Feb 6, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 19:26, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 18:57, Scot McSweeney-Roberts I don’t think _anybody_ claimed that Apple was “open”. Apple have, however, become far _more_ open than they were, and are continuing to do so. And I'd say they're about as closed as they ever were. Apple's most open products were the non Steve Jobs ones (the Apple II series, the Netwon and the Pippin had it been released). The Mac was at it's most open when SJ wasn't around, and the iPxxx series are all about making things even more closed. Do you actually use any Apple products or pay any attention to changes due to land in upcoming OS releases, or is your information almost exclusively based on news reports and anecdotes? I still use my Netwon. My powerbook has been sitting in a cupboard since it's power supply went. I retired my 4400 (running debian as a server) last year. I have another 8 Apples (a //e, a III, a Lisa and several Macs of various vintage) in storage. As an apostate apple fan boy I still find myself keeping up with what Apple are doing even though I have no intention of going back to the them any time soon. If you want Atom support, patch it yourself. And end up with what, a Darwin based BSD experience? In that case I'd save myself time and stick with FreeBSD. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- You can't build a reputation based on what you are going to do.
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On 6-Feb-2010, at 16:17, Reverend Graeme Mulvaney wrote: You've be forgiven for thinking this was a BBC list - what with all the postings about Apple and all - I know it's a bit OT, but apparently a British company (X2) are touting an 'iTablet' that looks to be anything but closed: http://bit.ly/dojyX9 Not a peep on news.bbc.co.uk - but I guess that's to be expected these days. It is to be expected, given the only thing which seems to set the iTablet apart from anything other manufacturers are doing is the cheeky name. “X2 Computing has not yet revealed when the iTablet will be launched and when it will be available.” It’s Just Another Windows 7 Tablet™ Mind you, if it costs £250, it might well make a splash. The first Maemo tablets were news. The first iPhone OS tablet was news. The first Windows tablets were news (hello, Fujitsu Stylistic). The second and third-generation Windows tablets were news, too ;) More of the same… not so much. Plus, without even an expected launch date, it’s a whole lot of nothing. M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
Apologies - Apple Hardware rather than Macs. Although Macs *are* primarily consumer hardware. The amount of tinkerability has always been several degrees of magnitude below that of a PC. Cheers, R. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 01:29, Richard Lockwood richard.lockw...@gmail.com wrote: Use a PC. Macs are consumer hardware - and it's never been suggested that they're anything else. Er, eh? Are we talking about the same thing, here? _iPads and iPhones_ are consumer hardware, no shadow of a doubt. OTOH, Apple has quite regularly suggested that Macs aren't necessarily consumer-focused. I don't think most consumers would care that 10.5 was certified UNIX, for example (or even know what that means, for that matter). Don't forget, the vast majority of people want their computer to just work - and that means: email, web browsing, basic word processing and maybe a spreadsheet. Oh, and handling their digital photos. And maybe their home videos. That I’ll agree with, though. It's only people on this list who give more than a pico-shit* about making it do something interesting and different. To be honest, it's worth bearing in mind that a) It's still very early days for iPhone OS - Apple has a backwards-compatibility nightmare with Mac OS X, and doesn't want to fall into the same trap where it has the opportunity to do things cleanly - things get added when Apple can figure out how to do them in a way which it is happy with (cf. Copy Paste, and also a few of the features appearing in 3.2) b) It's a first-generation device c) Apple won't be the only people producing tablets which work d) If all of this is as wildly successful as people seem to be predicting/Apple would like, they'll have no choice but to open things up I reckon this will happen before long, though: http://nevali.net/post/363412864/unlock-in M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 07:19, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: OTOH, Apple has quite regularly suggested that Macs aren't necessarily consumer-focused. Seeing as the first few Macs couldn't even be opened up*, I doubt Steve Jobs has ever really cared for tinkering. I can remember the first time I used a Mac back in 1985 and the first thing that came across my mind was where's the Basic?. Back then you needed a $10,000 Lisa to develop for the Mac. I can't help but wonder if Macs would have been locked to an App Store from day one if networking back then was like it is now, with Apple continuing the Lisa line as the astoundingly expensive Mac for developers. I really do expect to see the Mac line become more and more like the iPhone/Pad/Pod. If Apple could get away with locking down Macs to an App Store, they would. The only thing I don't get is why people bother to jailbreak their pads/pods/phones/apple tvs when more open hardware is available. Scot *Unless you had a special screwdriver that most consumers wouldn't be able to find - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:41, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: Seeing as the first few Macs couldn't even be opened up*, I doubt Steve Jobs has ever really cared for tinkering. I can remember the first time I used a Mac back in 1985 and the first thing that came across my mind was where's the Basic?. Back then you needed a $10,000 Lisa to develop for the Mac. I can't help but wonder if Macs would have been locked to an App Store from day one if networking back then was like it is now, with Apple continuing the Lisa line as the astoundingly expensive Mac for developers. Since Jobs' return to the helm, Macs have become steadily and increasingly more open with each passing year, both in hardware and software terms. Remember when the only way to run an alternative OS on a Mac was by booting Mac OS which then loaded a special extension which loaded the alternative OS over the top of Mac OS? I really do expect to see the Mac line become more and more like the iPhone/Pad/Pod. If Apple could get away with locking down Macs to an App Store, they would. I wouldn't be so sure. I think Apple/Jobs realised that they actually *can't* lock down Macs and still sell them. The vision of utility get-stuff-done computing is incongruous with the expectations many people have of what a computer should let them do. Thus, the solution is to create a new category of computing product which pulls elements from both. This way, the new platform can be as locked down or as open as required with no legacy baggage, while the (rather profitable) more open systems continue to sell to those who need that sort of thing. Plus, I don't actually think iPhone OS will remain as locked down as it is now for too long. Give it 18 months. Two years tops. The only thing I don't get is why people bother to jailbreak their pads/pods/phones/apple tvs when more open hardware is available. Because the pads/pods/phones/apple tvs are well-designed and do 90%. switching wholesale for the sake of that 10% is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 01:29, Richard Lockwood richard.lockw...@gmail.com wrote: Macs are consumer hardware - and it's never been suggested that they're anything else. Hold on a second. I have a MacBook in front of me and within arms reach I have an Eee. Let's see: The MacBook has a screen. The Eee has a screen. The MacBook has a keyboard. The Eee has a keyboard. The MacBook has a trackpad. The Eee has a trackpad. The MacBook has USB ports. The Eee has USB ports. The MacBook has an Ethernet port. The Eee has an Ethernet port. The MacBook has a video output port. The Eee has a video output port. The MacBook has a CD and DVD drive. The EEE doesn't. It's a netbook. The MacBook has audio output ports. The Eee has audio output ports. The MacBook has a hard drive. The Eee has a hard drive. The MacBook has a removable battery. The Eee has a removable battery. The MacBook runs a POSIX-compatible FreeBSD-based operating system. The Eee runs Debian Linux. The MacBook is a consumer hardware device, but the Eee isn't. Apparently. I'm not sure how that works. There's lots wrong with Apple, but lets be clear: they make computers, not toasters. -- Tom Morris http://tommorris.org/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
Did you read the article? http://diveintomark.org/archives/2010/01/29/tinkerers-sunset It sounded like you hadn't... Richard Lockwood wrote: Use a PC. Macs are consumer hardware - and it's never been suggested that they're anything else. Don't forget, the vast majority of people want their computer to just work - and that means: email, web browsing, basic word processing and maybe a spreadsheet. Oh, and handling their digital photos. And maybe their home videos. It's only people on this list who give more than a pico-shit* about making it do something interesting and different. Cheers, Rich. * the SI unit of caring On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Ian Stirling backstage...@mauve.plus.com wrote: Tim Dobson wrote: Thoughts on postcard? My postcard only has tickboxes for 'wish you were here', 'having a lovely time' and 'Had a lovely time at iDisney', all the rest of the card is too slippery to write on, what do I do? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 13:17, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: Since Jobs' return to the helm, Macs have become steadily and increasingly more open with each passing year, both in hardware and software terms. Remember when the only way to run an alternative OS on a Mac was by booting Mac OS which then loaded a special extension which loaded the alternative OS over the top of Mac OS? Remember when you could buy a Mac clone with Apple's full permission? That you can run an alternative OS on a Mac with ease these days is more due to a grudging acceptance of market demands than a great step towards openness. I'd say Apple are less open since SJ's return - the death of the clones, the death of the Newton (which was licensed to 3rd parties like Siemens), iTunes Fairplay DRM, the iPhone/Pad lock down and Apple TV only working with iTunes. What have they done that's open? I wouldn't be so sure. I think Apple/Jobs realised that they actually *can't* lock down Macs and still sell them. The vision of utility get-stuff-done computing is incongruous with the expectations many people have of what a computer should let them do. Thus, the solution is to create a new category of computing product which pulls elements from both. This way, the new platform can be as locked down or as open as required with no legacy baggage, while the (rather profitable) more open systems continue to sell to those who need that sort of thing. What I expect to see is more and more iPhone OS computers (like more or less permanently docked iPads with 15 or 17 inch screens) and fewer and fewer midrange Macs (and no low end Macs at all). Plus, I don't actually think iPhone OS will remain as locked down as it is now for too long. Give it 18 months. Two years tops. So you're expecting Steve Jobs to leave in 18 months to two years? That's the about the only way I could see that happening. The only thing I don't get is why people bother to jailbreak their pads/pods/phones/apple tvs when more open hardware is available. Because the pads/pods/phones/apple tvs are well-designed and do 90%. switching wholesale for the sake of that 10% is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But there are other products that are also well designed and have 100% functionality, they're just not as fashionable. I think it has more to do with some people wanting to be followers of fashion (and a fashion item is something that Apple products have become since SJ's return) and then finding that fashionable straight jacket is too tight. It's just not rational behaviour. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
So we're just ignoring WebKit, Darwin, Grand Central and the rest of the stuff on this list? http://www.apple.com/opensource/ On 5 Feb 2010, at 14:29, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 13:17, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: Since Jobs' return to the helm, Macs have become steadily and increasingly more open with each passing year, both in hardware and software terms. Remember when the only way to run an alternative OS on a Mac was by booting Mac OS which then loaded a special extension which loaded the alternative OS over the top of Mac OS? Remember when you could buy a Mac clone with Apple's full permission? That you can run an alternative OS on a Mac with ease these days is more due to a grudging acceptance of market demands than a great step towards openness. I'd say Apple are less open since SJ's return - the death of the clones, the death of the Newton (which was licensed to 3rd parties like Siemens), iTunes Fairplay DRM, the iPhone/Pad lock down and Apple TV only working with iTunes. What have they done that's open? I wouldn't be so sure. I think Apple/Jobs realised that they actually *can't* lock down Macs and still sell them. The vision of utility get-stuff-done computing is incongruous with the expectations many people have of what a computer should let them do. Thus, the solution is to create a new category of computing product which pulls elements from both. This way, the new platform can be as locked down or as open as required with no legacy baggage, while the (rather profitable) more open systems continue to sell to those who need that sort of thing. What I expect to see is more and more iPhone OS computers (like more or less permanently docked iPads with 15 or 17 inch screens) and fewer and fewer midrange Macs (and no low end Macs at all). Plus, I don't actually think iPhone OS will remain as locked down as it is now for too long. Give it 18 months. Two years tops. So you're expecting Steve Jobs to leave in 18 months to two years? That's the about the only way I could see that happening. The only thing I don't get is why people bother to jailbreak their pads/pods/phones/apple tvs when more open hardware is available. Because the pads/pods/phones/apple tvs are well-designed and do 90%. switching wholesale for the sake of that 10% is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But there are other products that are also well designed and have 100% functionality, they're just not as fashionable. I think it has more to do with some people wanting to be followers of fashion (and a fashion item is something that Apple products have become since SJ's return) and then finding that fashionable straight jacket is too tight. It's just not rational behaviour. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 14:29, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: Remember when you could buy a Mac clone with Apple's full permission? That you can run an alternative OS on a Mac with ease these days is more due to a grudging acceptance of market demands than a great step towards openness. Yup. it nearly put them out of business. I'm not sure 'open to the point of financial ruin' is a beneficial strategy for anybody concerned. I'd say Apple are less open since SJ's return - the death of the clones, the death of the Newton (which was licensed to 3rd parties like Siemens), iTunes Fairplay DRM, the iPhone/Pad lock down and Apple TV only working with iTunes. What have they done that's open? http://opensource.apple.com/ http://www.macosforge.org/ http://www.llvm.org/ (well, big chunks) http://www.cups.org/ The Apple TV, I'll grant you, though it will actually work as a standalone device if you really want. It's a bit of a dubious argument, though. Fairplay? How would the iTunes Store have possibly existed without it? (and I don't mean in technical terms, where would they have got any content from?) iPhone OS lockdown, covered ad nauseum, I wouldn't be so sure. I think Apple/Jobs realised that they actually *can't* lock down Macs and still sell them. The vision of utility get-stuff-done computing is incongruous with the expectations many people have of what a computer should let them do. Thus, the solution is to create a new category of computing product which pulls elements from both. This way, the new platform can be as locked down or as open as required with no legacy baggage, while the (rather profitable) more open systems continue to sell to those who need that sort of thing. What I expect to see is more and more iPhone OS computers (like more or less permanently docked iPads with 15 or 17 inch screens) and fewer and fewer midrange Macs (and no low end Macs at all). That makes no sense from a business perspective. Plus, I don't actually think iPhone OS will remain as locked down as it is now for too long. Give it 18 months. Two years tops. So you're expecting Steve Jobs to leave in 18 months to two years? That's the about the only way I could see that happening. Right. But there are other products that are also well designed and have 100% functionality, they're just not as fashionable. I think it has more to do with some people wanting to be followers of fashion (and a fashion item is something that Apple products have become since SJ's return) and then finding that fashionable straight jacket is too tight. It's just not rational behaviour. some people doesn't account for the sales figures. Show me a product which does everything my iPod touch does, weighs no more, has an equally accurate touchscreen, a usable OS that my six year old is capable of using (actually, my three year old does a pretty good job of it), doesn't require manual faffing in order to get media and apps (and actually HAS a good selection of well-written, well-designed applications) onto it _and_ doesn't have the drawbacks of iPhone OS. Oh, and costs the same or less. M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 14:49, Alex Mace a...@hollytree.co.uk wrote: So we're just ignoring WebKit, Darwin, Grand Central and the rest of the stuff on this list? WebKit wasn't Apple's - It was from originally KDE. Darwin is BSD on top of a Mach microkernel - again, not Apple's code. Giving back some code to open source community is hardly as open as, say, letting people run OSX on Dell hardware (which they have actively stopped people from doing with a recent release). More to the point, taking already open source code and layering a large proprietary layer on top is in no way, shape or form open. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 14:58, Darren Stephens darren.steph...@hull.ac.uk wrote: No, For many people it is ENTIRELY rational behaviour. Most people are not like us (who jailbreak iphone and touch and tinker with OS X). Most people want a consumer project. They want something they can switch on and use, not spend the rest of your life trying to configure and tweak. Jailbreaking is the ultimate in configuring and tweeking. Buying an iPhone is a rational behaviour (assuming you don't care too much about your phone being all that great a phone). Buying an iPhone, knowing all the limitations and then jailbreaking it isn't rational behaviour when there are just as good alternative that don't require jailbreaking (I could see doing it for fun when the iPhone was new, but not now). If you can jailbreak an iPhone, then you shouldn't have any difficulty using Ovi or the Android store (or even sideloading apps that aren't in those stores) Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
No, For many people it is ENTIRELY rational behaviour. Most people are not like us (who jailbreak iphone and touch and tinker with OS X). Most people want a consumer project. They want something they can switch on and use, not spend the rest of your life trying to configure and tweak. For nokia, for example, the Ovi Store is a big improvement, but STILL not as easy to grasp as using the app store or iTunes on an iPhone. That is what sells. The fashion thing is a nice adjiunct for those who care. Sometimes it is about fashion, but it's not always. When the first iPhone came out, I didn't want one because it didn't have all the features I wanted. But it didn't make me admire the package of UI and slickness any less, because it worked for those who did. But there are other products that are also well designed and have 100% functionality, they're just not as fashionable. I think it has more to do with some people wanting to be followers of fashion (and a fashion item is something that Apple products have become since SJ's return) and then finding that fashionable straight jacket is too tight. It's just not rational behaviour. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Darren Stephens MBCS CITP School of Arts and New Media University of Hull Scarborough Campus Filey Road Scarborough t: +441723357360 e: darren.steph...@hull.ac.uk * To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://www.hull.ac.uk/legal/email_disclaimer.html * - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
If you want to run Mac OS X on Dell hardware, go right ahead, Apple won't stop you. I don't see why Apple, with a minority share in the computer market, should officially support you doing that. Alex On 5 Feb 2010, at 15:09, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 14:49, Alex Mace a...@hollytree.co.uk wrote: So we're just ignoring WebKit, Darwin, Grand Central and the rest of the stuff on this list? WebKit wasn't Apple's - It was from originally KDE. Darwin is BSD on top of a Mach microkernel - again, not Apple's code. Giving back some code to open source community is hardly as open as, say, letting people run OSX on Dell hardware (which they have actively stopped people from doing with a recent release). More to the point, taking already open source code and layering a large proprietary layer on top is in no way, shape or form open. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 15:09, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: WebKit wasn't Apple's - It was from originally KDE. Darwin is BSD on top of a Mach microkernel - again, not Apple's code. Oh, right, well if it's that easy, I'll just toddle off here and build my _own_ OS kernel on top of Mach 2.5[0], update the BSD layer to match FreeBSD 5, apply a huge wodge of fixes (seriously, have you seen some of Mach's code from that era? it's horrible), build a new device driver layer, have it running on three different primary architectures (of which two come in both 32-bit and 64-bit variants), and build a certified SUS userspace on top of that. See you in ten years! Firefox was once Netscape... DragonflyBSD was once ATT UNIX... Worst. Argument. Ever. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 15:01, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 14:29, Scot McSweeney-Roberts Yup. it nearly put them out of business. I'm not sure 'open to the point of financial ruin' is a beneficial strategy for anybody concerned. I didn't say killing off the clones was bad for Apple. Without a doubt SJ saved the company, but in doing so Apple have moved further and further away from openness. I'd say Apple are less open since SJ's return - the death of the clones, the death of the Newton (which was licensed to 3rd parties like Siemens), iTunes Fairplay DRM, the iPhone/Pad lock down and Apple TV only working with iTunes. What have they done that's open? http://opensource.apple.com/ http://www.macosforge.org/ http://www.llvm.org/ (well, big chunks) http://www.cups.org/ Cups (like most of the OS projects Apple are involved in) existed long before Apple got involved. Apple use open source and even give back to the community, but that doesn't mean Apple's core strategy is in any way about openness. If anything, they actively discourage openness when it gets anywhere near a consumer (like deliberately changing OSX so it won't run on non Apple hardware). Fairplay? How would the iTunes Store have possibly existed without it? (and I don't mean in technical terms, where would they have got any content from?) Fairplay wasn't the only DRM system in town at the time. If the music industry had any foresight at all, they would have required Apple to use DRM that was licensable by non-Apple manufactures and required iTunes to work with something besides iPods. I wouldn't be so sure. I think Apple/Jobs realised that they actually *can't* lock down Macs and still sell them. The vision of utility get-stuff-done computing is incongruous with the expectations many people have of what a computer should let them do. Thus, the solution is to create a new category of computing product which pulls elements from both. This way, the new platform can be as locked down or as open as required with no legacy baggage, while the (rather profitable) more open systems continue to sell to those who need that sort of thing. What I expect to see is more and more iPhone OS computers (like more or less permanently docked iPads with 15 or 17 inch screens) and fewer and fewer midrange Macs (and no low end Macs at all). That makes no sense from a business perspective. Yes it does. Apple get a 30% cut of whatever software goes onto iPxxx. They get nothing from a Mac software sale. Assuming the margins on the hardware are about the same, Apple would be better off transitioning their low to mid end products to a fully controlled model. They could even make it a selling point - easy to find new software, reduced risk of malware, fewer compatibility problems, etc. If anyone can make locked down hardware seem like a great idea, it's Steve Jobs. But there are other products that are also well designed and have 100% functionality, they're just not as fashionable. I think it has more to do with some people wanting to be followers of fashion (and a fashion item is something that Apple products have become since SJ's return) and then finding that fashionable straight jacket is too tight. It's just not rational behaviour. some people doesn't account for the sales figures. That's because most iPhone owners don't jailbreak. It's the jailbreaking of the iPhone I don't get. If you're technically aware enough to be able to do it (and want to do it), why did you buy a phone that needs that sort of hacking in the first place? I could see maybe when it first came out, but not now. Show me a product which does everything my iPod touch does, weighs no more, has an equally accurate touchscreen, a usable OS that my six year old is capable of using (actually, my three year old does a pretty good job of it), doesn't require manual faffing in order to get media and apps (and actually HAS a good selection of well-written, well-designed applications) onto it _and_ doesn't have the drawbacks of iPhone OS. Oh, and costs the same or less. Take a look at the latest Android phones, like the Droid/Milestone. While Andoid and iPhone have different strengths and weaknesses, they are now comparable. I expect to see Android phones surpass iPhones fairly soon (maybe even at MWC), simply because there as so many companies making Android devices. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 15:29, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 15:09, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: WebKit wasn't Apple's - It was from originally KDE. Darwin is BSD on top of a Mach microkernel - again, not Apple's code. Oh, right, well if it's that easy, I'll just toddle off here and build my _own_ OS kernel on top of Mach 2.5[0], update the BSD layer to match FreeBSD 5, apply a huge wodge of fixes (seriously, have you seen some of Mach's code from that era? it's horrible), build a new device driver layer, have it running on three different primary architectures (of which two come in both 32-bit and 64-bit variants), and build a certified SUS userspace on top of that. See you in ten years! Or you could do it the Apple way and buy a company that has already done it. Ideally, that company would be run your former CEO that you pushed out in favour of a guy best known for selling coloured sugar water. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 16:57, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: No, Apple will actively stop me from doing it, by making subtle changes to the OS to ensure it won't run, such as actively not supporting Atom processors. How do you actively not do something, exactly? Plus, it sounds to me like you want to run it on an unsupported platform while also reaping the benefits of it being a supported one (i.e., it won't break). Much like your jailbreak argument: why buy a Dell if you're going to run Mac OS X on it? (Coincidentally, until recently my Dell Inspiron ran Mac OS X. It now runs OpenSolaris). - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
Good. One of the reasons Mac OS X doesn't suffer the DLL hell of Windows is that it has a much smaller range of hardware to support. You can't complain about not being able to tinker and then if you do go and tinker it being Apple's fault it doesn't work. Just don't use Apple products and stop moaning about it. On 5 Feb 2010, at 16:57, Scot McSweeney-Roberts wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 15:16, Alex Mace a...@hollytree.co.uk wrote: If you want to run Mac OS X on Dell hardware, go right ahead, Apple won't stop you. I don't see why Apple, with a minority share in the computer market, should officially support you doing that. No, Apple will actively stop me from doing it, by making subtle changes to the OS to ensure it won't run, such as actively not supporting Atom processors. http://osxdaily.com/2009/10/31/hackintosh-netbook-users-take-note-snow-leopard-10-6-2-update-kills-support-for-atom-processor/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 17:06, Mo McRoberts m...@nevali.net wrote: On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 16:57, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: No, Apple will actively stop me from doing it, by making subtle changes to the OS to ensure it won't run, such as actively not supporting Atom processors. How do you actively not do something, exactly? By adding in code that checks if the OS is running on Atom processor and if it is stop running. Which is exactly what Apple did in a recent update to OSX. It's one thing not to have drivers or what not for hardware you don't sell - that was an active counter measure against running OSX on non Apple hardware. Much like your jailbreak argument: why buy a Dell if you're going to run Mac OS X on it? No idea. Plenty of people seem to want to though. Hence the whole Hackintosh community. Unsurprisingly, I think they're a bit nuts - but the point is that Apple are not for tinkering and openness. Scot - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 17:14, Alex Mace a...@hollytree.co.uk wrote: Just don't use Apple products and stop moaning about it. I stopped using Apple products several years ago. I don't really care one way or another how open Apple it's products are - I do moan when people say Apple are open when history so clearly shows that they're not. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 18:57, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: No idea. Plenty of people seem to want to though. Hence the whole Hackintosh community. Unsurprisingly, I think they're a bit nuts - but the point is that Apple are not for tinkering and openness. Quite how we went from iPhones OS devices aren’t for tinkering” to “Not all of Mac OS X is open source and people can’t run it on any hardware they like!” is, frankly, beyond me. I don’t think _anybody_ claimed that Apple was “open”. Apple have, however, become far _more_ open than they were, and are continuing to do so. Do you actually use any Apple products or pay any attention to changes due to land in upcoming OS releases, or is your information almost exclusively based on news reports and anecdotes? Atom support in 10.6.0 - 10.6.1 worked because the kernel didn’t use anything which the Atom didn’t support. The Atom was never an explicitly supported processor and so there was no reason for Apple to _not_ implement something in an OS update just because it doesn’t work on an Atom. XNU itself has always had pretty strict CPU requirements (e.g., the CPU had to support SSE3 and everything which came before it). This is nothing to do with actively preventing people from running Mac OS X on machines they’re not licensed to, and everything to do with only supporting what they need to. Some releases of XNU prior to 1486.2.11 supported Atom by accident; it no longer did. XNU is completely and entirely open source: kext developers regularly run Mac OS X (on Macs) on custom-built modified kernels, and many Hackintosh users do similar. If you want Atom support, patch it yourself. M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 16:00, Scot McSweeney-Roberts bbc_backst...@mcsweeney-roberts.co.uk wrote: Fairplay? How would the iTunes Store have possibly existed without it? (and I don't mean in technical terms, where would they have got any content from?) Fairplay wasn't the only DRM system in town at the time. If the music industry had any foresight at all, they would have required Apple to use DRM that was licensable by non-Apple manufactures and required iTunes to work with something besides iPods. iTunes used to, and possibly still does, work with some third-party devices. It also writes a copy of its library as an XML file which can be trivially parsed more efficiently than iTunes itself does. There are many applications out there (including some which sync to other devices) which use this, and it works very well. If the music industry had any foresight, they would have banned DRM. Multi-vendor DRM is an enormous bag of fail. You might as well not bother (which the record execs knew, incidentally). M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
[backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
Thoughts on postcard? Original Message Subject: [GeekUp] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:56:22 + From: Paul Robinson p...@vagueware.com To: GeekUp gee...@googlegroups.com I saw this over on the Open Manufacturing list, and figured as so many here are: a) Tinkerers b) Advocates of Free c) Apple Fan bois d) And/or Apple hate bois ... that this discussion might be of interest to several of you. Begin forwarded message: http://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/01/31/1657233/Apples-Trend-Away-From-Tinkering Having cut his programming teeth on an Apple ][e as a ten-year-old, Mark Pilgrim laments that Apple now seems to be doing everything in their power to stop his kids from finding the sense of wonder he did: 'Apple has declared war on the tinkerers of the world. With every software update, the previous generation of jailbreaks stop working, and people have to find new ways to break into their own computers. There won't ever be a MacsBug for the iPad. There won't be a ResEdit, or a Copy ][+ sector editor, or an iPad Peeks Pokes Chart. And that's a real loss. Maybe not to you, but to somebody who doesn't even know it yet.' http://diveintomark.org/archives/2010/01/29/tinkerers-sunset http://al3x.net/2010/01/28/ipad.html Lots of interesting comments from an open perspective (on all sides of the issue). --Paul Fernhout I have to admit this is about the best set of arguments I've seen for Free in a while. I sit here, about to go into a school and talk to a bunch of teenagers about careers in technology as part of my work with STEMnet. I was thinking earlier, most of them have probably never tinkered, but as we've discussed here in the past, if they did some of them would find the brilliance and happiness we all did when we first started tinkering. I am seriously tempted to reconsider my developer connection subscriptions with Apple as a result of thinking about this a bit more. Maybe. Other thoughts on all of this beyond the age old Free is the future vs GPL is for idiots debate we've had so many times before? -- Paul Robinson http://vagueware.com :: p...@vagueware.com :: +44 (0) 7740 465746 Vagueware Limited is registered in England/Wales, number 05700421 Registered Office: 3 Tivoli Place, Ilkley, W. Yorkshire, LS29 8SU Correspondence: 13 Crossland Road, Manchester, M21 9DU -- http://geekup.org/ | http://geekup.org/wiki/ | http://jobboard.geekup.org/ To post e-mail: gee...@googlegroups.com Or go online: http://groups.google.com/group/geekup/ To unsubscribe e-mail: geekup+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
Tim Dobson wrote: Thoughts on postcard? My postcard only has tickboxes for 'wish you were here', 'having a lovely time' and 'Had a lovely time at iDisney', all the rest of the card is too slippery to write on, what do I do? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
Use a PC. Macs are consumer hardware - and it's never been suggested that they're anything else. Don't forget, the vast majority of people want their computer to just work - and that means: email, web browsing, basic word processing and maybe a spreadsheet. Oh, and handling their digital photos. And maybe their home videos. It's only people on this list who give more than a pico-shit* about making it do something interesting and different. Cheers, Rich. * the SI unit of caring On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 1:08 AM, Ian Stirling backstage...@mauve.plus.com wrote: Tim Dobson wrote: Thoughts on postcard? My postcard only has tickboxes for 'wish you were here', 'having a lovely time' and 'Had a lovely time at iDisney', all the rest of the card is too slippery to write on, what do I do? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Fwd: Slashdot| Apple's Trend Away From Tinkering
On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 01:29, Richard Lockwood richard.lockw...@gmail.com wrote: Use a PC. Macs are consumer hardware - and it's never been suggested that they're anything else. Er, eh? Are we talking about the same thing, here? _iPads and iPhones_ are consumer hardware, no shadow of a doubt. OTOH, Apple has quite regularly suggested that Macs aren't necessarily consumer-focused. I don't think most consumers would care that 10.5 was certified UNIX, for example (or even know what that means, for that matter). Don't forget, the vast majority of people want their computer to just work - and that means: email, web browsing, basic word processing and maybe a spreadsheet. Oh, and handling their digital photos. And maybe their home videos. That I’ll agree with, though. It's only people on this list who give more than a pico-shit* about making it do something interesting and different. To be honest, it's worth bearing in mind that a) It's still very early days for iPhone OS - Apple has a backwards-compatibility nightmare with Mac OS X, and doesn't want to fall into the same trap where it has the opportunity to do things cleanly - things get added when Apple can figure out how to do them in a way which it is happy with (cf. Copy Paste, and also a few of the features appearing in 3.2) b) It's a first-generation device c) Apple won't be the only people producing tablets which work d) If all of this is as wildly successful as people seem to be predicting/Apple would like, they'll have no choice but to open things up I reckon this will happen before long, though: http://nevali.net/post/363412864/unlock-in M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
