Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

Ah, the RISCOS version of BBC Basic.  What a genuine joy that was to program
in, with in-line RISC assembly.

2009/8/6 Gareth Davis 

>  Wouldn't be the first set top box to run BBC Basic.
>
> Many years ago I did some development for the KIT platform that used Pace
> DSL 4000 boxes. These were based on the Acorn Risc PC and could be given a
> *BASIC command to drop them into BBC Basic V.
>
> --
> *Gareth Davis* | Production Systems Specialist
> World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
> News Division
> 8 http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ + 702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B
> 4PH
>
>
>  --
> *From:* owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:
> owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth
> *Sent:* 06 August 2009 14:22
> *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> *Subject:* Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
>
> Actually, I would be right up for writing a BBC Basic interpreter for
> set-top boxes.  Probably have to have some MHEG5-type interface, but the
> idea is quite workable.
> Not sure about how to make it support XML yet...
>
> 2009/8/6 John Styles 
>
>> > How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need another impossible
>> tech project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The Theory".
>>
>> Funnily enough I was thinking about the same thing a couple of days
>> ago, somehow I fear that devices conforming to the Canvas Project
>> specification won't have some sort of BBC Basic built in!
>>  -
>> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
>> please visit
>> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>>  Unofficial list archive:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Butterworth
>
> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
> advice, since 2002
>
>


-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Gareth Davis]

Wouldn't be the first set top box to run BBC Basic. 
 
Many years ago I did some development for the KIT platform that used
Pace DSL 4000 boxes. These were based on the Acorn Risc PC and could be
given a *BASIC command to drop them into BBC Basic V.  
-- 
Gareth Davis | Production Systems Specialist
World Service Future Media, Digital Delivery Team - Part of BBC Global
News Division
* http://www.bbcworldservice.com/ <http://www.bbcworldservice.com/>  *
702NE Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4PH


 




From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk
[mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth
Sent: 06 August 2009 14:22
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
    Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?


Actually, I would be right up for writing a BBC Basic
interpreter for set-top boxes.  Probably have to have some MHEG5-type
interface, but the idea is quite workable.   

Not sure about how to make it support XML yet...


2009/8/6 John Styles 


> How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need
another impossible tech project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The
Theory".


Funnily enough I was thinking about the same thing a
couple of days
ago, somehow I fear that devices conforming to the
Canvas Project
specification won't have some sort of BBC Basic built
in!

-
Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To
unsubscribe, please visit
http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
Unofficial list archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/





-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and
switchover advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

Thanks to Spotify, I am...
spotify:album:2n8DmRJMWH9Y3UmnCzMtho

2009/8/6 Richard Lockwood 

> In those days, of course, everything cost sixpence, was made of wood
> and lasted forever.
>
> (Cue Dvorak's "Symphony for the New World" in the background)
>
> :-)
>
> R.
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Nico Morrison
> wrote:
> > Hey - I sent my then girlfriend a loveletter on paper punchtape, ASR-33
> > Teletype controlling a PDP-11 that ran a Motorola satnav receiver on the
> > survey boat I was on in Papua New Guinea in 1971, it was probably an
> 11-23
> > and we booted it manually with switches until it could see the paper
> tape.
> >
> > She got someone in the Singapore office to dump out the paper tape and it
> > must have worked as we married and had kids.
> >
> > I am of the blase camp as well in this respect - 'plus ca change, plus
> c'est
> > la meme chose' - try that in Google translate.
> >
> > Nico Morrison
> >
> > 2009/8/6 Brian Butterworth 
> >>
> >>
> >> 2009/8/6 Tim Dobson 
> >>>
> >>> Brian Butterworth wrote:
> 
>  The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11!  When I started doing
>  system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD.  I used XWindows
> on
>  Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to "new" versions of
>  something I have known for a more than a few decades.  Sorry...
> >>>
> >>> Gah. I always feel young round here.
> >>> I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :(
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>>
> >>> I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there.
> >>> I dislike this article for several reasons but
> >>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html
> >>> if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400
> >>> linux users, so be it! ;)
> >>
> >> LOL.  And we all know where AH is now.  And what he spent his BBC
> expenses
> >> on.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes
> some
> >>> good points.
> >>>
> >>>
> 
>  How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need another impossible
>  tech project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The Theory".
> >>>
> >>> If exciting means "more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than
> >>> iplayer" then "yes". :P
> >>>
> >>> The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO.
> >>
> >> Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this
> >> department.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Tim :)
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
> >>> please visit
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> >>>  Unofficial list archive:
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Brian Butterworth
> >>
> >> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
> >> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and
> switchover
> >> advice, since 2002
> >
> >
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

2009/8/6 Nico Morrison 

> Hey - I sent my then girlfriend a loveletter on paper punchtape, ASR-33
> Teletype controlling a PDP-11 that ran a Motorola satnav receiver on the
> survey boat I was on in Papua New Guinea in 1971, it was probably an 11-23
> and we booted it manually with switches until it could see the paper tape.
>
> She got someone in the Singapore office to dump out the paper tape and it
> must have worked as we married and had kids.


That made me smile.  Douglas Adams (Dawkins rest his soul) said he used to
wonder what the nerds playing with tickertape at school were up to - finally
discovering that it was "running the world".


>
>
> I am of the blase camp as well in this respect - 'plus ca change, plus
> c'est la meme chose' - try that in Google translate.


C'est n'est pas un courrier électronique.


>
>
> Nico Morrison
>
> 2009/8/6 Brian Butterworth 
>
>
>>
>> 2009/8/6 Tim Dobson 
>>
>>> Brian Butterworth wrote:
>>>
 The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11!  When I started doing
 system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD.  I used XWindows on
 Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to "new" versions of
 something I have known for a more than a few decades.  Sorry...

>>>
>>> Gah. I always feel young round here.
>>> I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :(
>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>
>>> I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there.
>>> I dislike this article for several reasons but
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html
>>> if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400
>>> linux users, so be it! ;)
>>
>>
>> LOL.  And we all know where AH is now.  And what he spent his BBC expenses
>> on.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some
>>> good points.
>>>
>>>
>>>
 How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need another impossible
 tech project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The Theory".

>>>
>>> If exciting means "more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than
>>> iplayer" then "yes". :P
>>>
>>> The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO.
>>
>>
>> Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this
>> department.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tim :)
>>>
>>> -
>>> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
>>> please visit
>>> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>>>  Unofficial list archive:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian Butterworth
>>
>> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
>> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
>> advice, since 2002
>>
>
>


-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

Actually, I would be right up for writing a BBC Basic interpreter for
set-top boxes.  Probably have to have some MHEG5-type interface, but the
idea is quite workable.
Not sure about how to make it support XML yet...

2009/8/6 John Styles 

> > How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need another impossible tech
> project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The Theory".
>
> Funnily enough I was thinking about the same thing a couple of days
> ago, somehow I fear that devices conforming to the Canvas Project
> specification won't have some sort of BBC Basic built in!
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Ian Forrester]

But surely none of this will matter in the next few years? 

The Platform is the Internet.

*runs and ducks for cover*

Although I got to say, with the developments at Google, Mozilla Labs, Palm and 
even Opera. I'm starting to think Tim Oreilly was right.

Ian Forrester

This e-mail is: []secret; []private; [x]public

Senior Producer, BBC Backstage, BBC R&D
Room 1044, BBC Manchester BH, Oxford Road, M60 1SJ
email: ian.forres...@bbc.co.uk
work: +44 (0)1612444063 | mob: +44 (0)7711913293 
-Original Message-
From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] 
On Behalf Of Richard Lockwood
Sent: 04 August 2009 20:40
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

Right.  I think that sums it up.  If I tell my Mum that, she'll look at me as 
though I'm from Mars.

To be honest, as a non-Linux user, but experienced "computer" user, I have no 
idea what the hell DEB or RPM are.

If that's the best sell you can do, it just demonstrates that desktop Linux 
still isn't ready for the day to day computer user.

Cheers,

Rich.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Andrew Bowden wrote:
> Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format.  There's 
> some smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a 
> habit of not fitting in.  But frankly most modern distros take an RPM 
> and DEB and know exactly what to do with it so that the user need do 
> little more than click on the file.

-
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visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
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-
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Nico Morrison]

Try 16K memory, ferrite core, weighed 80lbs in 19" rack, That was in
addition to the 4K main memory.

I prefer Bach,
NM


2009/8/6 Richard Lockwood 

> In those days, of course, everything cost sixpence, was made of wood
> and lasted forever.
>
> (Cue Dvorak's "Symphony for the New World" in the background)
>
> :-)
>
> R.
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Nico Morrison
> wrote:
> > Hey - I sent my then girlfriend a loveletter on paper punchtape, ASR-33
> > Teletype controlling a PDP-11 that ran a Motorola satnav receiver on the
> > survey boat I was on in Papua New Guinea in 1971, it was probably an
> 11-23
> > and we booted it manually with switches until it could see the paper
> tape.
> >
> > She got someone in the Singapore office to dump out the paper tape and it
> > must have worked as we married and had kids.
> >
> > I am of the blase camp as well in this respect - 'plus ca change, plus
> c'est
> > la meme chose' - try that in Google translate.
> >
> > Nico Morrison
> >
> > 2009/8/6 Brian Butterworth 
> >>
> >>
> >> 2009/8/6 Tim Dobson 
> >>>
> >>> Brian Butterworth wrote:
> 
>  The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11!  When I started doing
>  system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD.  I used XWindows
> on
>  Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to "new" versions of
>  something I have known for a more than a few decades.  Sorry...
> >>>
> >>> Gah. I always feel young round here.
> >>> I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :(
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>>
> >>> I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there.
> >>> I dislike this article for several reasons but
> >>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html
> >>> if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400
> >>> linux users, so be it! ;)
> >>
> >> LOL.  And we all know where AH is now.  And what he spent his BBC
> expenses
> >> on.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes
> some
> >>> good points.
> >>>
> >>>
> 
>  How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need another impossible
>  tech project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The Theory".
> >>>
> >>> If exciting means "more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than
> >>> iplayer" then "yes". :P
> >>>
> >>> The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO.
> >>
> >> Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this
> >> department.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Tim :)
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
> >>> please visit
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> >>>  Unofficial list archive:
> >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Brian Butterworth
> >>
> >> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
> >> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and
> switchover
> >> advice, since 2002
> >
> >
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Richard Lockwood]

In those days, of course, everything cost sixpence, was made of wood
and lasted forever.

(Cue Dvorak's "Symphony for the New World" in the background)

:-)

R.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 10:16 AM, Nico Morrison wrote:
> Hey - I sent my then girlfriend a loveletter on paper punchtape, ASR-33
> Teletype controlling a PDP-11 that ran a Motorola satnav receiver on the
> survey boat I was on in Papua New Guinea in 1971, it was probably an 11-23
> and we booted it manually with switches until it could see the paper tape.
>
> She got someone in the Singapore office to dump out the paper tape and it
> must have worked as we married and had kids.
>
> I am of the blase camp as well in this respect - 'plus ca change, plus c'est
> la meme chose' - try that in Google translate.
>
> Nico Morrison
>
> 2009/8/6 Brian Butterworth 
>>
>>
>> 2009/8/6 Tim Dobson 
>>>
>>> Brian Butterworth wrote:

 The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11!  When I started doing
 system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD.  I used XWindows on
 Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to "new" versions of
 something I have known for a more than a few decades.  Sorry...
>>>
>>> Gah. I always feel young round here.
>>> I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :(
>>
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there.
>>> I dislike this article for several reasons but
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html
>>> if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400
>>> linux users, so be it! ;)
>>
>> LOL.  And we all know where AH is now.  And what he spent his BBC expenses
>> on.
>>
>>>
>>> Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some
>>> good points.
>>>
>>>

 How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need another impossible
 tech project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The Theory".
>>>
>>> If exciting means "more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than
>>> iplayer" then "yes". :P
>>>
>>> The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO.
>>
>> Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this
>> department.
>>
>>>
>>> Tim :)
>>>
>>> -
>>> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
>>> please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>>>  Unofficial list archive:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Brian Butterworth
>>
>> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
>> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
>> advice, since 2002
>
>

-
Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[John Styles]

> How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need another impossible tech 
> project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The Theory".

Funnily enough I was thinking about the same thing a couple of days
ago, somehow I fear that devices conforming to the Canvas Project
specification won't have some sort of BBC Basic built in!
-
Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Nico Morrison]

Hey - I sent my then girlfriend a loveletter on paper punchtape, ASR-33
Teletype controlling a PDP-11 that ran a Motorola satnav receiver on the
survey boat I was on in Papua New Guinea in 1971, it was probably an 11-23
and we booted it manually with switches until it could see the paper tape.

She got someone in the Singapore office to dump out the paper tape and it
must have worked as we married and had kids.

I am of the blase camp as well in this respect - 'plus ca change, plus c'est
la meme chose' - try that in Google translate.

Nico Morrison

2009/8/6 Brian Butterworth 

>
>
> 2009/8/6 Tim Dobson 
>
>> Brian Butterworth wrote:
>>
>>> The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11!  When I started doing
>>> system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD.  I used XWindows on
>>> Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to "new" versions of
>>> something I have known for a more than a few decades.  Sorry...
>>>
>>
>> Gah. I always feel young round here.
>> I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :(
>>
> [snip]
>
>>
>> I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there.
>> I dislike this article for several reasons but
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html
>> if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400 linux
>> users, so be it! ;)
>
>
> LOL.  And we all know where AH is now.  And what he spent his BBC expenses
> on.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some
>> good points.
>>
>>
>>
>>> How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need another impossible tech
>>> project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The Theory".
>>>
>>
>> If exciting means "more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than
>> iplayer" then "yes". :P
>>
>> The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO.
>
>
> Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this
> department.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Tim :)
>>
>> -
>> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
>> please visit
>> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>>  Unofficial list archive:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Brian Butterworth
>
> follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
> web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
> advice, since 2002
>

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

2009/8/6 Tim Dobson 

> Brian Butterworth wrote:
>
>> The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11!  When I started doing
>> system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD.  I used XWindows on
>> Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to "new" versions of
>> something I have known for a more than a few decades.  Sorry...
>>
>
> Gah. I always feel young round here.
> I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :(
>
[snip]

>
> I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there.
> I dislike this article for several reasons but
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html
> if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400 linux
> users, so be it! ;)


LOL.  And we all know where AH is now.  And what he spent his BBC expenses
on.


>
>
> Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes some
> good points.
>
>
>
>> How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need another impossible tech
>> project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The Theory".
>>
>
> If exciting means "more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than
> iplayer" then "yes". :P
>
> The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO.


Yes, consumers probably like stability over endless choice in this
department.


>
>
> Tim :)
>
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web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Tim Dobson]

Brian Butterworth wrote:
The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11!  When I started doing 
system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD.  I used XWindows 
on Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to "new" versions 
of something I have known for a more than a few decades.  Sorry...


Gah. I always feel young round here.
I can hardly ever join in discussions on vintage computing :(



"more and more" -> you don't think there is *any* relative improvement?


I'm NOT in anyway talking about improvement.  What I am saying is that 
for "the masses" to move to Linux, they need NO barriers at all.  This 
is not about creating a better UI, it is about having a UI that you 
don't need to learn because it leverages the user's Windows "skills".


Only once you have got your users can you think of improving them.

 



I'll assume that's just hyperbole.


No, I trying to point out that Linux desktop acceptance needs present 
not a single hurdle to acceptance.


I've seen it myself many times.

You plonk the MD of the company, who used computers years ago, down in 
front of a non-windows machine.  He click a few things, can't make it 
work straight away and decided "it's rubbish, stick with Windows".


If you in sales or marketing, then you're going to stick a Machead down 
and get them to use the Linux box.  Again, it doesn't appear enough like 
a Mac, so they go to their backup Windows skills and still nothing.


The wide-scale acceptance of a Linux operation system will depend on the 
people who make the decisions about purchase.  This is, surely, 
self-evident.


As a parallel, remember the iPlayer wasn't going to have a Mac version. 
 And then Flash saved the day.


How would all those Mac people in the media have reacted to a Mac-less 
iPlayer.  The same way they did to 4OD.  "it doesn't work".




I agree with your points, but dispute that it's not nearly there.
I dislike this article for several reasons but
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/06/linux_ubuntu_blog.html
if the catalyst has to be the publicity from claiming the UK has 400 
linux users, so be it! ;)


Now there are certainly issues encountered there, but he still makes 
some good points.





How about a BBC Micro 2012 Edition...?  FM&T need another impossible 
tech project.  Be more exciting than "Bang Goes The Theory".  


If exciting means "more likely to cause flame wars on backstage than 
iplayer" then "yes". :P


The world does not need new gnu/linux distros IMHO.

Tim :)

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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

2009/8/5 Tim Dobson 

> Thanks Brian,
>
> That's made what you were saying loads clearer to me. :)
>
> As I had suspected, I fundamentally disagree, but at least I'm clear about
> what I'm disagreeing with now. Thank you!


Excellent.  Agreeing about this never gets anyone anywhere.


>
>
> Please see comments inline.
>
> Brian Butterworth wrote:
>
>> The point about the very specific examples that I gave was that as a group
>> "Windows users" have a strange and wide-ranging levels of understanding of
>> the system they are using.
>>
>
> I realise these are very specific examples so I'm not going labour any
> points about those specific examples.


>
>  If you started with Windows 1.21 or your first times is with Windows 7,
>> the skills you learn will stay with you.
>>
> >
>
>> Even if you came to Windows via Mac/OS or GEM or OS/2 PM or X-Windows or
>> Xerox Star .. you bring along a subset of the whole range of things you can
>> do with Windows.
>>
>> Because Linux does not have the attitude of Windows, "a PC on every
>> desktop and in every home" it has taken shortcuts.
>>
>> So, everytime there isn't a usability study into the user experience of a
>> Linux release, there just isn't the attention to detail.
>>
>
> I'm not going to go into the pedantic semantics on what one means by "Linux
> release" (kernel.org are sure good at end user UI! ;) ) but I think it
> might be worth looking at this project from one of the major GNU/Linux
> desktop environments, GNOME:
> http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject
> There once was a time when functionality was the biggie for distro. Now
> it's usability and they are making leaps and bounds.


The first version of Unix I used was on a PDP11!  When I started doing
system admin for Unix I learnt both System V and BSD.  I used XWindows on
Sparcstations! So, I have a rather blaze attitude to "new" versions of
something I have known for a more than a few decades.  Sorry...



>
>
>  Someone goes, as you did "I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter." you drop
>> some potential new users, because Linux "doesn't understand them".
>>
>> Given that a modern OS has huge qualities of these components, many small
>> UI "failings" means the Linux interface fails for more and more people.
>>
>
> "more and more" -> you don't think there is *any* relative improvement?


I'm NOT in anyway talking about improvement.  What I am saying is that for
"the masses" to move to Linux, they need NO barriers at all.  This is not
about creating a better UI, it is about having a UI that you don't need to
learn because it leverages the user's Windows "skills".

Only once you have got your users can you think of improving them.



>
> I'll assume that's just hyperbole.


No, I trying to point out that Linux desktop acceptance needs present not a
single hurdle to acceptance.

I've seen it myself many times.

You plonk the MD of the company, who used computers years ago, down in front
of a non-windows machine.  He click a few things, can't make it work
straight away and decided "it's rubbish, stick with Windows".

If you in sales or marketing, then you're going to stick a Machead down and
get them to use the Linux box.  Again, it doesn't appear enough like a Mac,
so they go to their backup Windows skills and still nothing.

The wide-scale acceptance of a Linux operation system will depend on the
people who make the decisions about purchase.  This is, surely,
self-evident.

As a parallel, remember the iPlayer wasn't going to have a Mac version.  And
then Flash saved the day.

How would all those Mac people in the media have reacted to a Mac-less
iPlayer.  The same way they did to 4OD.  "it doesn't work".




>
>
> Let's think for a moment about "start menus" or menus to launch programs.
> The actual name is irrelevant.
> [snip]


There is a simple way to sort this out ... make it do what the user expects.
 Especially if the user has ingrained their knowledge below their personal
perception threshold.

There was a guy I tried to help the other day who just couldn't get the hang
of the mouse.  Can most UI designers remember how they learnt THAT skill?



> I won't reiterate the article but just point out that as anyone on the
> latest version of ubuntu will know, notification windows ROCK now.
>
>  Someday, someone will stick a few million dollars into sorting this out
>> and there will be a "perfect release" of Linux that anyone can use BY
>> BRINING WHAT THEY KNOW OF WINDOWS on a personally deep level.
>>
>
> Well there's at least one notable multimillionaire throwing money at this
> at the moment.
> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/223
>

Yes, perhaps.


>
>
>  This does not mean that Linux should simply ape Windows.  But it does mean
>> that as an absolute minimum it should behave as everyone (as individuals)
>> expect.
>>
>
> Including the requirement of antivirus, application level firewalls and
> $latestwindowsworm? I jest, obviously not and you are right that the UI
> needs to conform to sta

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Tim Dobson]

Thanks Brian,

That's made what you were saying loads clearer to me. :)

As I had suspected, I fundamentally disagree, but at least I'm clear 
about what I'm disagreeing with now. Thank you!


Please see comments inline.

Brian Butterworth wrote:
The point about the very specific examples that I gave was that as a 
group "Windows users" have a strange and wide-ranging levels of 
understanding of the system they are using.


I realise these are very specific examples so I'm not going labour any 
points about those specific examples.


If you started with Windows 1.21 or your first times is with Windows 7, 
the skills you learn will stay with you.

>
Even if you came to Windows via Mac/OS or GEM or OS/2 PM or X-Windows or 
Xerox Star .. you bring along a subset of the whole range of things you 
can do with Windows.


Because Linux does not have the attitude of Windows, "a PC on every 
desktop and in every home" it has taken shortcuts.


So, everytime there isn't a usability study into the user experience of 
a Linux release, there just isn't the attention to detail.


I'm not going to go into the pedantic semantics on what one means by 
"Linux release" (kernel.org are sure good at end user UI! ;) ) but I 
think it might be worth looking at this project from one of the major 
GNU/Linux desktop environments, GNOME:

http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject
There once was a time when functionality was the biggie for distro. Now 
it's usability and they are making leaps and bounds.


Someone goes, as you did "I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter." you 
drop some potential new users, because Linux "doesn't understand them".


Given that a modern OS has huge qualities of these components, many 
small UI "failings" means the Linux interface fails for more and more 
people.


"more and more" -> you don't think there is *any* relative improvement?
I'll assume that's just hyperbole.

Let's think for a moment about "start menus" or menus to launch 
programs. The actual name is irrelevant.


Windows 3.1 had some application manager folder thing which you launched 
programs from. At the time, the macintoshes had the click and drag style 
menus (at least it was on the Performa 400 I had)


With Windows 95, the infamous "start menu" was created, which was a lot 
like the Macintosh menus.
In windows XP the classic style start has gone, most of your programs 
banished to "all programs". In windows Vista and 7 a search box was 
added. KDE4's menu system is remarkably similar.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Start_menu#Evolution_of_the_Start_Menu is 
really interesting if you get the chance.


Please forgive the following link. It's obviously quite one sided, 
especially towards the end, however it points out the important things.

http://linuxandfriends.com/2009/01/12/windows-7-vs-linux-a-comparison/
I won't reiterate the article but just point out that as anyone on the 
latest version of ubuntu will know, notification windows ROCK now.


Someday, someone will stick a few million dollars into sorting this out 
and there will be a "perfect release" of Linux that anyone can use BY 
BRINING WHAT THEY KNOW OF WINDOWS on a personally deep level.  


Well there's at least one notable multimillionaire throwing money at 
this at the moment.

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/223

This does not mean that Linux should simply ape Windows.  But it does 
mean that as an absolute minimum it should behave as everyone (as 
individuals) expect. 


Including the requirement of antivirus, application level firewalls and 
$latestwindowsworm? I jest, obviously not and you are right that the UI 
needs to conform to standards, be interoperable and seamless from 
technology to technology.
What would be really amazing would be if Microsoft and Apple 
participated in the http://www.freedesktop.org community, however that 
will never happen so I might as well forget that and point it out as an 
example of how developers are collaborating with each other to ensure 
consistent usability across their platforms.


I know I can use any interface that is presented to me.  I'm happy with 
a VT100 and vi.


That's the problem with Linux, it's designed by people like "us" and not 
for "every home, every desk".


hhahhahah, now if *I* was designing a text editor.

*enter some mashup clone of emacs & vi in a Words 2007 UI with 
clarisworks support and textmate bindings*


In all seriousness, I wish I could write something worthy of going in 
GNU/Linux distro - the people I know who contribute or have contributed 
are a lot more talented than me at least. The quality of code accepted 
into debian/centos etc is not for people like me, I can say that.


cheers,

Tim
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

Tim,
The point about the very specific examples that I gave was that as a group
"Windows users" have a strange and wide-ranging levels of understanding of
the system they are using.

If you started with Windows 1.21 or your first times is with Windows 7, the
skills you learn will stay with you.

Even if you came to Windows via Mac/OS or GEM or OS/2 PM or X-Windows or
Xerox Star .. you bring along a subset of the whole range of things you can
do with Windows.

Because Linux does not have the attitude of Windows, "a PC on every desktop
and in every home" it has taken shortcuts.

So, everytime there isn't a usability study into the user experience of a
Linux release, there just isn't the attention to detail.

Someone goes, as you did "I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter." you drop
some potential new users, because Linux "doesn't understand them".

Given that a modern OS has huge qualities of these components, many small UI
"failings" means the Linux interface fails for more and more people.

Someday, someone will stick a few million dollars into sorting this out and
there will be a "perfect release" of Linux that anyone can use BY BRINING
WHAT THEY KNOW OF WINDOWS on a personally deep level.

This does not mean that Linux should simply ape Windows.  But it does mean
that as an absolute minimum it should behave as everyone (as individuals)
expect.

I know I can use any interface that is presented to me.  I'm happy with a
VT100 and vi.

That's the problem with Linux, it's designed by people like "us" and not for
"every home, every desk".

2009/8/5 Tim Dobson 

> Please forgive me but I'm very confused about some of the points you're
> trying to me and just want to clarify exactly what you mean.
>
> Brian Butterworth wrote:
>
> 
>
>  So, the biggest problem for most users with non-Windows systems is that
>> it's not Windows.
>>
>
> Yup, I got all that and completely agree. Interestingly this isn't a
> problem if you teach the users from day one.
>
>  Windows, being "Borg" software has accumulated bits from every other OS
>> and software package along the way.
>>
>> For example, to close a Windows window, you can:
>>
>> - press the "X" button in the top right
>> - press the invisible button at the top left and choose close
>> - press Alt F4
>> - right click on the taskband icon and choose "close window"
>>
>
> I can do all these, exactly how you have described, in ubuntu
>
>  To maximize:
>>
>> - click the second-in button at the top right
>> - double click on the title bar
>> - right click the invible top left icon and choose maximuze
>> - press alt-space-X
>> - press Windows+Up
>>
>
> I can do all of these bar the last two, which I'm fairly sure were
> introduced from Vista onwards.
> Also, I appear to be able to do alt-F10
>
>  Another good example is the use of the menus.  In Windows you can use the
>> click-click-click method to select from menus, but you can also do the MacOS
>> click-drag-drag-drag-release method
>>
>
> I'm can do the same thing here.
>
>  as well as F10+arrowkeys+enter and [Alt]+arrowkeys+enter
>>
>
> I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter.
>
>  I think the biggest problem for most X-Windows based Linux systems is that
>> they generally have just "native" support for these kind of actions.
>>
>
> Sorry this is what I'm confused about. What do you mean "just 'native'
> support"? Perhaps you could explain what you mean here a bit better as I
> fail to understand how this leads on to your next point, sorry!
>
>  It is this kind of thing that has made Windows dominant and IMHO the very
>> thing that prevents larger-scale Linux use.
>>
>> Microsoft used to have things like "help for WordPerfect users" in Word
>> and "help for 123 users" in Excel.
>> Linux distributions just don't have that KILLER instinct that Microsoft
>> used to have.
>>
>
> I'm fairly sure there are various guides for windows users switching.
> For instance I'm fairly sure the OO.o help has sections like that.
>
>  Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it.
>>
>
> I would (and have) paid for Ubuntu & Debian GNU/Linux in the past.
>
> Glad your happy though!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tim
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Matt Barber]

On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:16 AM, John Styles wrote:
> We seem to have drifted off topic, can we not go back to complaining
> that the BBC won't let me run iPlayer on my Tesco Value Toaster and
> store the programmes indefinitely in the bread bin?!
>
> John

Hahaha that was brilliant
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Matt Barber]

On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Tim Dobson
wrote:ions like that.
>
>> Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it.
>

Second that. Been testing it out for months and love it. IE still
really sucks though.
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Frank Wales]

Alex Mace wrote:
> I compressed the run time on my toaster and now it won't shut up about
> grilled bread products.

Other hot flat snacks are available.
-- 
Frank Wales [fr...@limov.com]
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Richard Smedley]

Alex Mace wrote:
I compressed the run time on my toaster and now it won't shut up about 
grilled bread products.


Lister 


Waffles, anyone?

- Richard





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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Alex Mace]

I compressed the run time on my toaster and now it won't shut up about  
grilled bread products.


Lister

On 5 Aug 2009, at 10:16, John Styles wrote:


We seem to have drifted off topic, can we not go back to complaining
that the BBC won't let me run iPlayer on my Tesco Value Toaster and
store the programmes indefinitely in the bread bin?!

John

On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Tim Dobson wrote:
Please forgive me but I'm very confused about some of the points  
you're

trying to me and just want to clarify exactly what you mean.

Brian Butterworth wrote:



So, the biggest problem for most users with non-Windows systems is  
that

it's not Windows.


Yup, I got all that and completely agree. Interestingly this isn't  
a problem

if you teach the users from day one.

Windows, being "Borg" software has accumulated bits from every  
other OS

and software package along the way.

For example, to close a Windows window, you can:

- press the "X" button in the top right
- press the invisible button at the top left and choose close
- press Alt F4
- right click on the taskband icon and choose "close window"


I can do all these, exactly how you have described, in ubuntu


To maximize:

- click the second-in button at the top right
- double click on the title bar
- right click the invible top left icon and choose maximuze
- press alt-space-X
- press Windows+Up


I can do all of these bar the last two, which I'm fairly sure were
introduced from Vista onwards.
Also, I appear to be able to do alt-F10

Another good example is the use of the menus.  In Windows you can  
use the
click-click-click method to select from menus, but you can also do  
the MacOS

click-drag-drag-drag-release method


I'm can do the same thing here.


as well as F10+arrowkeys+enter and [Alt]+arrowkeys+enter


I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter.

I think the biggest problem for most X-Windows based Linux systems  
is that

they generally have just "native" support for these kind of actions.


Sorry this is what I'm confused about. What do you mean "just  
'native'
support"? Perhaps you could explain what you mean here a bit better  
as I

fail to understand how this leads on to your next point, sorry!

It is this kind of thing that has made Windows dominant and IMHO  
the very

thing that prevents larger-scale Linux use.

Microsoft used to have things like "help for WordPerfect users" in  
Word

and "help for 123 users" in Excel.
Linux distributions just don't have that KILLER instinct that  
Microsoft

used to have.


I'm fairly sure there are various guides for windows users switching.
For instance I'm fairly sure the OO.o help has sections like that.


Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it.


I would (and have) paid for Ubuntu & Debian GNU/Linux in the past.

Glad your happy though!

Cheers,

Tim
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[John Styles]

We seem to have drifted off topic, can we not go back to complaining
that the BBC won't let me run iPlayer on my Tesco Value Toaster and
store the programmes indefinitely in the bread bin?!

John

On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Tim Dobson wrote:
> Please forgive me but I'm very confused about some of the points you're
> trying to me and just want to clarify exactly what you mean.
>
> Brian Butterworth wrote:
>
> 
>
>> So, the biggest problem for most users with non-Windows systems is that
>> it's not Windows.
>
> Yup, I got all that and completely agree. Interestingly this isn't a problem
> if you teach the users from day one.
>
>> Windows, being "Borg" software has accumulated bits from every other OS
>> and software package along the way.
>>
>> For example, to close a Windows window, you can:
>>
>> - press the "X" button in the top right
>> - press the invisible button at the top left and choose close
>> - press Alt F4
>> - right click on the taskband icon and choose "close window"
>
> I can do all these, exactly how you have described, in ubuntu
>
>> To maximize:
>>
>> - click the second-in button at the top right
>> - double click on the title bar
>> - right click the invible top left icon and choose maximuze
>> - press alt-space-X
>> - press Windows+Up
>
> I can do all of these bar the last two, which I'm fairly sure were
> introduced from Vista onwards.
> Also, I appear to be able to do alt-F10
>
>> Another good example is the use of the menus.  In Windows you can use the
>> click-click-click method to select from menus, but you can also do the MacOS
>> click-drag-drag-drag-release method
>
> I'm can do the same thing here.
>
>> as well as F10+arrowkeys+enter and [Alt]+arrowkeys+enter
>
> I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter.
>
>> I think the biggest problem for most X-Windows based Linux systems is that
>> they generally have just "native" support for these kind of actions.
>
> Sorry this is what I'm confused about. What do you mean "just 'native'
> support"? Perhaps you could explain what you mean here a bit better as I
> fail to understand how this leads on to your next point, sorry!
>
>> It is this kind of thing that has made Windows dominant and IMHO the very
>> thing that prevents larger-scale Linux use.
>>
>> Microsoft used to have things like "help for WordPerfect users" in Word
>> and "help for 123 users" in Excel.
>> Linux distributions just don't have that KILLER instinct that Microsoft
>> used to have.
>
> I'm fairly sure there are various guides for windows users switching.
> For instance I'm fairly sure the OO.o help has sections like that.
>
>> Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it.
>
> I would (and have) paid for Ubuntu & Debian GNU/Linux in the past.
>
> Glad your happy though!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tim
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Tim Dobson]

Please forgive me but I'm very confused about some of the points you're 
trying to me and just want to clarify exactly what you mean.


Brian Butterworth wrote:



So, the biggest problem for most users with non-Windows systems is that 
it's not Windows.


Yup, I got all that and completely agree. Interestingly this isn't a 
problem if you teach the users from day one.


Windows, being "Borg" software has accumulated bits from every other OS 
and software package along the way.


For example, to close a Windows window, you can:

- press the "X" button in the top right
- press the invisible button at the top left and choose close
- press Alt F4
- right click on the taskband icon and choose "close window"


I can do all these, exactly how you have described, in ubuntu


To maximize:

- click the second-in button at the top right
- double click on the title bar
- right click the invible top left icon and choose maximuze
- press alt-space-X
- press Windows+Up


I can do all of these bar the last two, which I'm fairly sure were 
introduced from Vista onwards.

Also, I appear to be able to do alt-F10

Another good example is the use of the menus.  In Windows you can use 
the click-click-click method to select from menus, but you can also do 
the MacOS click-drag-drag-drag-release method


I'm can do the same thing here.

as well as 
F10+arrowkeys+enter and [Alt]+arrowkeys+enter


I can do Alt-F1, arrow, arrow, enter.

I think the biggest problem for most X-Windows based Linux systems is 
that they generally have just "native" support for these kind of actions.


Sorry this is what I'm confused about. What do you mean "just 'native' 
support"? Perhaps you could explain what you mean here a bit better as I 
fail to understand how this leads on to your next point, sorry!


It is this kind of thing that has made Windows dominant and IMHO the 
very thing that prevents larger-scale Linux use.


Microsoft used to have things like "help for WordPerfect users" in Word 
and "help for 123 users" in Excel.  

Linux distributions just don't have that KILLER instinct that Microsoft 
used to have.


I'm fairly sure there are various guides for windows users switching.
For instance I'm fairly sure the OO.o help has sections like that.


Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it.


I would (and have) paid for Ubuntu & Debian GNU/Linux in the past.

Glad your happy though!

Cheers,

Tim
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RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

"sharing" and "consensus" are not the same as "freedom"



From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk
[mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Nico Morrison
Sent: 05 August 2009 09:24
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?


Janis lives! And it's called sharing and consensus - something the West
is conspicuously BAD at. Which is why open-source, Wikipedia and the
others are so crucially important.

NMM


2009/8/5 Nick Reynolds-FM&T 


"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"


-Original Message-
From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk
[mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Stephen
Jolly
Sent: 05 August 2009 07:03
        To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
        Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?


On 4 Aug 2009, at 23:07, Dave Crossland wrote:
> Why should economics trump freedom?
>
> Would you scrap free elections if it was better for the
economy? China

> is proving that free elections are not needed for a efficient
> capitalist market system.

Well, freedom's great, but you can't eat it.  Luckily freedom
and
economic growth aren't always mutually exclusive. :-)

S

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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Nico Morrison]

Janis lives! And it's called sharing and consensus - something the West is
conspicuously BAD at. Which is why open-source, Wikipedia and the others are
so crucially important.

NMM

2009/8/5 Nick Reynolds-FM&T 

> "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
>
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Stephen Jolly
> Sent: 05 August 2009 07:03
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
>
> On 4 Aug 2009, at 23:07, Dave Crossland wrote:
> > Why should economics trump freedom?
> >
> > Would you scrap free elections if it was better for the economy? China
>
> > is proving that free elections are not needed for a efficient
> > capitalist market system.
>
> Well, freedom's great, but you can't eat it.  Luckily freedom and
> economic growth aren't always mutually exclusive. :-)
>
> S
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
> please visit
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>
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>

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

Whilst all these comments are quite valid, the problem for most "users"
(rather than programmes or sysadmins) is that they have already spent a lot
of time training to use Windows.
I some cases this is formal training (a company run couse, for example),
sometimes informal (user-to-user coaching), sometimes indirect (employee
gets trained on company software package and gets to know how to use Windows
as a side-effect), sometimes self-motivated ("Windows for Dummies").

So, the biggest problem for most users with non-Windows systems is that it's
not Windows.

Windows, being "Borg" software has accumulated bits from every other OS and
software package along the way.

For example, to close a Windows window, you can:

- press the "X" button in the top right
- press the invisible button at the top left and choose close
- press Alt F4
- right click on the taskband icon and choose "close window"

To maximize:

- click the second-in button at the top right
- double click on the title bar
- right click the invible top left icon and choose maximuze
- press alt-space-X
- press Windows+Up

Another good example is the use of the menus.  In Windows you can use the
click-click-click method to select from menus, but you can also do the MacOS
click-drag-drag-drag-release method as well as F10+arrowkeys+enter and
[Alt]+arrowkeys+enter

I think the biggest problem for most X-Windows based Linux systems is that
they generally have just "native" support for these kind of actions.

It is this kind of thing that has made Windows dominant and IMHO the very
thing that prevents larger-scale Linux use.

Microsoft used to have things like "help for WordPerfect users" in Word and
"help for 123 users" in Excel.

Linux distributions just don't have that KILLER instinct that Microsoft used
to have.

Oh, and Windows 7 is so good I would pay for it.


2009/8/4 Richard Lockwood 

> Right.  I think that sums it up.  If I tell my Mum that, she'll look
> at me as though I'm from Mars.
>
> To be honest, as a non-Linux user, but experienced "computer" user, I
> have no idea what the hell DEB or RPM are.
>
> If that's the best sell you can do, it just demonstrates that desktop
> Linux still isn't ready for the day to day computer user.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rich.
>
> On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Andrew Bowden
> wrote:
> > Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format.  There's some
> > smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a habit of
> not
> > fitting in.  But frankly most modern distros take an RPM and DEB and know
> > exactly what to do with it so that the user need do little more than
> click
> > on the file.
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" 

-Original Message-
From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk
[mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Stephen Jolly
Sent: 05 August 2009 07:03
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

On 4 Aug 2009, at 23:07, Dave Crossland wrote:
> Why should economics trump freedom?
>
> Would you scrap free elections if it was better for the economy? China

> is proving that free elections are not needed for a efficient 
> capitalist market system.

Well, freedom's great, but you can't eat it.  Luckily freedom and
economic growth aren't always mutually exclusive. :-)

S

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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Stephen Jolly]

On 4 Aug 2009, at 23:07, Dave Crossland wrote:

Why should economics trump freedom?

Would you scrap free elections if it was better for the economy? China
is proving that free elections are not needed for a efficient
capitalist market system.


Well, freedom's great, but you can't eat it.  Luckily freedom and  
economic growth aren't always mutually exclusive. :-)


S

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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Tim Dobson]

[mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] *On Behalf Of *Alun Rowe
*Sent:* 04 August 2009 12:36
*To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
*Subject:* Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out? 


Ask a genuine user to install some software on it.  I know it’s a
LOT better than it used to be but my dad still couldn’t do it.


You should take a look at 
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/software-installation-in-linux-is-difficult/


It's a great demonstration of precisely how difficult software 
installation on linux can be.


Do you think this is beyond your dad's grasp? :)

Tim
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Dave Crossland]

2009/8/4 Alun Rowe :
>
> Yes I have but it is fairly unique.

RHAT is the only free software company in the S&P500, but there are
several direct competitors and many smaller and very different free
software companies.

> How would you obtain funding for an idea which had no IP of it own?

Red Hat started. How did this happen?

There are hundreds of small companies that only supply free software.
How did they start?

I know, and, clearly, you don't, but since you have seen the evidence
that such companies exist, I find your position quite strange; rather
than saying, "I don't understand the economics" you say "The economics
cannot possibly work."

> Like I say I love the utopian model but I can’t see it happening for a long
> long time.  Companies NEED to be able to maintain their own technology
> without simply passing it to their competitors on a plate.

Red Hat has been doing very well for a long long time.

This isn't a utopian model. It is an ethical position with a proven
business model.

> Anyway it’s no surprise people pay Red Hat for support.  Mere users don’t
> stand a chance with anything Linux based.  It’s far too geeky to use still.

Try telling that to the millions of school kids whose schools provide
them with GNU/Linux desktops.

As a percentage of the whole software industry, how much revenue is
generated by the casual home users I assume you are referring to?

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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Tim Dobson]

Deirdre Harvey wrote:
My 50+ year old parents (decidedly non-geeky) parents don't 
seem have issues with their Kubuntu machine they use for web, 
email & ksirtet (tetris).


My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) also doesn't 
seem to have issues with Debian + Kmail.


Did they set those machines up all by themselves or did you help them a
little bit? Do they call you if they need a bit of help?


Yup, I set them up, pointed them in the right direction however I'm not 
really sure this is *that* relevant.


We used to, a long while ago, be an all windows household, and I was 
giving them the same level of support then. In fact, I was giving them 
more because about 6 months in, despite it having "bulletproof" windows 
security stuff, it was still running considerably more slowly - 
something they were complaining about.



Having a helpful geek in the family can go a long way to easing the fear
of using systems that other "mere users" (yuck) might struggle with.


Well sure. This is definitely true. For what it's worth my Uncle is an 
"old school" GNU/Linux hacker, my Brother-in-law is an ex-army GNU/Linux 
sysadmin (who spurred me into all this!) and so I guess it has produced 
an encouraging environment for "users" in my close family to move over.


For a "power user" such as my brother (who knows what he's doing but 
needs help when it all goes wrong) then it was really a matter of 
evaluating what he uses his computer for and installing the relevant 
software.



Basically I'm accusing you of being their tech support ;)


So absolutely, I am tech support when needed. :)

Tech support also includes basic training - ie "howto use a file manager 
to organise documents you have created" <- something I still haven't 
managed to communicate the concept of yet to my mother.


I don't know, I do feel that my work load is considerably reduced now 
they are on ubuntu, partly because I have some idea of where to start 
troubleshooting issues without just telling them to reboot. :)


Anyway, that's a little bit of my story.

Tim
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Dave Crossland]

2009/8/4 Alun Rowe :
>
> Preaching open standards is fine AS LONG as you understand the deep economic
> issues behind them

Why should economics trump freedom?

Would you scrap free elections if it was better for the economy? China
is proving that free elections are not needed for a efficient
capitalist market system.
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Matt Jones]

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 8:40 PM, Richard
Lockwood wrote:
> Right.  I think that sums it up.  If I tell my Mum that, she'll look
> at me as though I'm from Mars.
>
> To be honest, as a non-Linux user, but experienced "computer" user, I
> have no idea what the hell DEB or RPM are.
>
> If that's the best sell you can do, it just demonstrates that desktop
> Linux still isn't ready for the day to day computer user.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rich.
>
> On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Andrew Bowden wrote:
>> Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format.  There's some
>> smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a habit of not
>> fitting in.  But frankly most modern distros take an RPM and DEB and know
>> exactly what to do with it so that the user need do little more than click
>> on the file.
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
> Unofficial list archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>

DEB/RPM are the file extensions used for 'installers', run one and it
will (On most distributions now) bring up an installer which will
install said software in a couple of clicks. However the way most
people should install software is to use the software available
through the repository system- an "App store" if you like- of your
chosen distribution, which at least on Ubuntu is partnered with a set
of tools that make it a doddle to install almost anything, as the
Ubuntu/Debian repositories are sufficiently large enough to cover most
free software available. The add/remove program installer make it
about as easy as you can to install the most common software that end
users want.  The issue here is that they work in a different way to
the less structured windows system, where you can grab
$randomsoftware.exe and it will probably install.

The issue is packaging commercial software for linux systems, as
everyone seems to do it there own way, often not tying into the system
very well, or causing problems at update time. This happens to some
extent on other systems, I have been using OSX for a few days now, and
installing the Adobe suite was not intuitive as it should have been,
it works outside of the 'drag the icon to the applications folder' way
that is the normal method.

Yes, there are still usability issues that need work, and these are
being worked on constantly to improve, we only need to look back a few
years, I'm talking 2004/5 even, where there was a good chance you
wouldn't be able to get a graphical desktop on a laptop, and a lot of
functionality wasn't there (Wireless, 3D acceleration, Device
support). What Linux really needs to succeed is a standout reason to
switch, at the moment it requires discussion and persuasion, If
someone asks you 'Why should I use this Ubuntu/Mandriva/Fedora thing,
there isn't the 5 second none sentence soundbite as a reason.

Matt.

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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Jonathan Tweed]

I'm about as far from Linux on the desktop as you can get, but I think  
that's a little unfair.


It's no different from talking about .pkg or .msi files on Mac OS X or  
Windows. Your mum might not be interested in the specifics but this is  
technical list and so at times people are likely to talk about things  
at a greater level of detail.


Cheers
Jonathan


On 4 Aug 2009, at 20:40, Richard Lockwood   
wrote:



Right.  I think that sums it up.  If I tell my Mum that, she'll look
at me as though I'm from Mars.

To be honest, as a non-Linux user, but experienced "computer" user, I
have no idea what the hell DEB or RPM are.

If that's the best sell you can do, it just demonstrates that desktop
Linux still isn't ready for the day to day computer user.

Cheers,

Rich.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Andrew  
Bowden wrote:
Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format.  There's  
some
smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a habit  
of not
fitting in.  But frankly most modern distros take an RPM and DEB  
and know
exactly what to do with it so that the user need do little more  
than click

on the file.


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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Richard Lockwood]

Right.  I think that sums it up.  If I tell my Mum that, she'll look
at me as though I'm from Mars.

To be honest, as a non-Linux user, but experienced "computer" user, I
have no idea what the hell DEB or RPM are.

If that's the best sell you can do, it just demonstrates that desktop
Linux still isn't ready for the day to day computer user.

Cheers,

Rich.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Andrew Bowden wrote:
> Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format.  There's some
> smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a habit of not
> fitting in.  But frankly most modern distros take an RPM and DEB and know
> exactly what to do with it so that the user need do little more than click
> on the file.

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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Dave Crossland]

Maybe you should be more specific so we know what to picket?

On 4 Aug 2009, 6:40 PM, "Stephen Jolly"  wrote:

On 4 Aug 2009, at 12:23, Deirdre Harvey wrote: >> >> My 90+ year old
Grandmother (also non-geeky) al...
I've acted as Windows and MacOS tech support for enough relatives over the
years to think that in many cases, getting them to use a decent Linux
distribution would be preferable!  Something like Ubuntu gives users a
standard way of installing applications and keeping them up-to-date, doesn't
require regular sweeping for viruses and spyware (yet!) and is easy to
manage remotely - what more could you ask for?

Having said that, the BBC taught my grandmother (85+) to use Windows*, and
she seems to be coping just fine.

S

*if I don't get responses to this email complaining that the BBC shouldn't
be teaching people to use proprietary software, I will be sincerely
disappointed.

- Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
visit http://backstag...

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Stephen Jolly]

On 4 Aug 2009, at 12:23, Deirdre Harvey wrote:

My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) also doesn't
seem to have issues with Debian + Kmail.


Did they set those machines up all by themselves or did you help  
them a

little bit? Do they call you if they need a bit of help?

Having a helpful geek in the family can go a long way to easing the  
fear

of using systems that other "mere users" (yuck) might struggle with.


I've acted as Windows and MacOS tech support for enough relatives over  
the years to think that in many cases, getting them to use a decent  
Linux distribution would be preferable!  Something like Ubuntu gives  
users a standard way of installing applications and keeping them up-to- 
date, doesn't require regular sweeping for viruses and spyware (yet!)  
and is easy to manage remotely - what more could you ask for?


Having said that, the BBC taught my grandmother (85+) to use Windows*,  
and she seems to be coping just fine.


S

* if I don't get responses to this email complaining that the BBC  
shouldn't be teaching people to use proprietary software, I will be

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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Stephen Jolly]

On 4 Aug 2009, at 12:23, Deirdre Harvey wrote:

My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) also doesn't
seem to have issues with Debian + Kmail.


Did they set those machines up all by themselves or did you help  
them a

little bit? Do they call you if they need a bit of help?

Having a helpful geek in the family can go a long way to easing the  
fear

of using systems that other "mere users" (yuck) might struggle with.


I've acted as Windows and MacOS tech support for enough relatives over  
the years to think that in many cases, getting them to use a decent  
Linux distribution would be preferable!  Something like Ubuntu gives  
users a standard way of installing applications and keeping them up-to- 
date, doesn't require regular sweeping for viruses and spyware (yet!)  
and is easy to manage remotely - what more could you ask for?


Having said that, the BBC taught my grandmother (85+) to use Windows*,  
and she seems to be coping just fine.


S

*if I don't get responses to this email complaining that the BBC  
shouldn't be teaching people to use proprietary software, I will be  
sincerely disappointed.


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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Christian Allen]

In my humble experience most users would not be able to install
software on _any_ OS without support from a more experienced friendly
user - especially if that OS is MS Windows. They would certainly not be
able to install an OS from scratch.

As for Linux: I've installed Ubuntu on a dozen computers for completely
non-technical users. Of those, only one switched back to MS Windows. The
others are all happy running Linux and the majority say that it is much
easier to use and are quite happy installing/removing software and
running updates using the graphical tools in Gnome or KDE. Yes, most had
to be shown how to do it and some bought manuals to help, but exactly
the same can be said about Windows or OS X - hence all the novice level
books in the shops.

The arguments about Linux being "hard" are almost always based on the
fact that it is different to the incumbent pre-installed OS (usually MS
Windows), not on the actual difficulty in using it. Strange how you
never hear that argument against Apple's OS X when people switch from
Windows to Mac, even though those have very different interfaces.

Hmm, how on Earth did anyone manage to use computers before the GUI?

C.

[These are just my humble mumblings on the matter]

-Original Message-
From: Alun Rowe 
Reply-to: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 12:35:49 +0100



Ask a genuine user to install some software on it.  I know it’s a LOT
better than it used to be but my dad still couldn’t do it.

Alun





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Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Christian Allen]

Interesting comment about Telephony not based on open standards. How do
all the different telephony companies manage to get their networks to
interact without having communication protocols based on agreed
international standards?[1] How do you expect their customers to use
their services if they can't communicate between different company
networks.

Open Standards lead to increased econonmic competitiveness: Arguably the
largest global economic factor of the last 20 years is the Internet,
which is built upon open standards published by the IETF as RFCs*.
Without these documents the explosion in Internet based commerce we've
seen would have been improbable. Have you heard of the silo'd services
provided by Compuserve, AOL, et al?[2] Their business model failed as
soon as the TCP/IP open standards underlying the Internet were accepted
by the wider community.

So, the deep economic implications of open standards leads to greater
flow of ideas, money and commerce; benefiting businesses and consumers.

C

[1] http://www.itu.int
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL

* OK, RFCs are technically recommendations rather than standards, but
the almost universal acceptance of them makes them defacto open
standards.

-Original Message-
From: Alun Rowe 
Reply-to: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 11:12:31 +0100




No it’s not confusion.  Unfortunately one leads to the other.  Open
standards whilst highly beneficial in some fields eg Web Standards can
also be highly uncompetitive in others eg Telephony.  

Telephony is all about the quality of the service you receive so the
standard IS the product.
Websites are about content so the standard is merely a conduit for the
product.

Preaching open standards is fine AS LONG as you understand the deep
economic issues behind them


On 04/08/2009 08:03, "Brian Butterworth"  wrote:

2009/8/4 Alun Rowe 
  
The problem with a 'free digital society'  is that
people need salaries.


ah, the old confusion of gratis and libre.  
 

Ask the music/film industry what they think.

I love the idea of utopia but we all know that
unicorns don't exist, right?

On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave Crossland"
 wrote:

Hi, What about the case for a free
digital society? Regards, Dave 
On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, "Alun
Rowe" <
<mailto:alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk> 
alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk> wrote:

  
No doubt some palms will be
crossed with silver (or equity).

The business case for open
standards has to be thought
through ingreat depth before
embracing it.

Also Skypes network has been
around for a longtime! On 3 Aug
2009, at 17:10, "Dave Crossland"
< <mailto:d...@lab6.com>
d...@lab6.com> wrote: 
> Proprietary software and
centtalised network services
strike again... > > Regards,
Dave >> >> ...










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RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Andrew Bowden]

Most Linux software is now available in DEB or RPM format.  There's some
smaller packages that aren't, and commercial companies have a habit of
not fitting in.  But frankly most modern distros take an RPM and DEB and
know exactly what to do with it so that the user need do little more
than click on the file.
 
As for UI it depends.  GNOME have some very good UI rules.
But then I recently took one look at the new KDE4 version of Amarok and
fled for the hills.




From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk
[mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Alun Rowe
Sent: 04 August 2009 12:55
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
    Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?


 

Or they provide clear instruction on how to do it WITHOUT having to
resort to Google...

A large number of issues come from the wide breadth of software and
authors, all doing things in their own ways...

The 'openness' here is what causes the problem as there don't appear to
be any accepted design patterns to follow etc.  Don't get me wrong I'm a
geek and 'mostly' can do what I need to on Ubuntu but honestly at the
moment I wouldn't put Linux on a 'users' desktop.

Also, it'd be nice if the software was seen my a UI designer before
launch.  Most UI's on Linux software are very sucky at the moment!


On 04/08/2009 12:46, "Andrew Bowden"  wrote:



Out of interest, did you get him to try using a tar.gz file or a
deb/rpm?

I ask as tar.gz is a pain in the backside.  This cannot be
denied.   But then I use Linux on all my home PCs and almost never use
them for software installation.  

For my mind, using DEBs or RPMs from central repositories is a
FAR FAR FAR superior way of managing your software than the Windows
method of downloading random files from random sites, each of which use
a random installation routine!  This is especially true with upgrades.
I can upgrade my entire Ubuntu box with complete ease.  

However it requires a user to be told "this is what you do with
software".

But lets be honest - this is not a Linux thing.  When I first
tried to installed software on OS-X, I got completely thrown and that's
probably the easiest installation method going!  It wasn't that it was
hard - just that no one told me what to do.

So software companies either do everything like Windows because
"everyone knows what to do", or they do something which may be better
but which people have to learn something new.

 




 



From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk
[mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Alun  Rowe
        Sent: 04 August 2009 12:36
        To:  backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd:  [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

 
   

  Ask a genuine user to install some software on  it.  I
know it's a LOT better than it used to be but my dad still  couldn't do
it.

Alun


On 04/08/2009 11:31, "Brian  Butterworth"
  wrote:






2009/8/4 Alun Rowe 



...
 Mere users  don't stand a chance with
anything Linux based.  It's far too  geeky to use still.

Your  final pronouncement is
interesting.  How can you  justify it?

 





Alun



On 04/08/2009 08:13,  "Dave Crossland"
http://d...@lab6.com>  > wrote:




Have you heard of  Red Hat?




On 4 Aug 2009,  7:02 AM, "Alun Rowe"
http://alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk>  > wrote:


The problem

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Alun Rowe]

 
Or they provide clear instruction on how to do it WITHOUT having to resort
to Google...

A large number of issues come from the wide breadth of software and authors,
all doing things in their own ways...

The Œopenness¹ here is what causes the problem as there don¹t appear to be
any accepted design patterns to follow etc.  Don¹t get me wrong I¹m a geek
and Œmostly¹ can do what I need to on Ubuntu but honestly at the moment I
wouldn¹t put Linux on a Œusers¹ desktop.

Also, it¹d be nice if the software was seen my a UI designer before launch.
Most UI¹s on Linux software are very sucky at the moment!


On 04/08/2009 12:46, "Andrew Bowden"  wrote:

> Out of interest, did you get him to try using a tar.gz file or a deb/rpm?
>  
> I ask as tar.gz is a pain in the backside.  This cannot be denied.   But then
> I use Linux on all my home PCs and almost never use them for software
> installation.  
>  
> For my mind, using DEBs or RPMs from central repositories is a FAR FAR FAR
> superior way of managing your software than the Windows method of downloading
> random files from random sites, each of which use a random installation
> routine!  This is especially true with upgrades.  I can upgrade my entire
> Ubuntu box with complete ease.
>  
> However it requires a user to be told "this is what you do with software".
>  
> But lets be honest - this is not a Linux thing.  When I first tried to
> installed software on OS-X, I got completely thrown and that's probably the
> easiest installation method going!  It wasn't that it was hard - just that no
> one told me what to do.
>  
> So software companies either do everything like Windows because "everyone
> knows what to do", or they do something which may be better but which people
> have to learn something new.
>  
>  
> 
>>  
>>  
>> 
>>  From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk
>> [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Alun  Rowe
>> Sent: 04 August 2009 12:36
>> To:  backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
>> Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd:  [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
>> 
>>  
>>
>> 
>>   Ask a genuine user to install some software on  it.  I know it¹s a LOT
>> better than it used to be but my dad still  couldn¹t do it.
>> 
>> Alun
>> 
>> 
>> On 04/08/2009 11:31, "Brian  Butterworth"   wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe 
>>>  
>>>> ...
>>>>  Mere users  don¹t stand a chance with anything Linux based.  It¹s far too
>>>> geeky to use still.
>>>> 
>>>> Your  final pronouncement is interesting.  How can you  justify it?
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Alun
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 04/08/2009 08:13,  "Dave Crossland" >>>> <http://d...@lab6.com>  > wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>>> Have you heard of  Red Hat?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> On 4 Aug 2009,  7:02 AM, "Alun Rowe" >>>>>> <http://alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk>  > wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The problem with a 'free digital  society'  is that people need
>>>>>>> salaries.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ask the  music/film industry what they think.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I love the idea of  utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist,
>>>>>>> right?
>>>>>>> On 3 Aug 2009, at  20:14, "Dave Crossland" >>>>>> <http://d...@lab6.com> >  wrote: > Hi, > > What about the case  fo...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Alun Rowe Pentangle  Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire
>>>>>>> OX9 3EW Tel:  +44 8700 33...
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This message (and any associated files)  is intended only for the use of
>>>>>> the individual or entity to  which it is addressed and may contain
>>>>>> information that is  confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a
>>>>>> trade  secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby
>>>>>> notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this
>>>>>> message, or files associated with this message, is strictly  prohibited.
>>>

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Phil Lewis]

My father (who I refuse to give any tech support to) failed to install
windows XP well enough to get online or have it usable for several years
of attempting it several times. Every time he buys a new PC with windows
pre-installed. He's been using windows heavily for > 10yrs. What I'm
saying is that the average user sometimes finds almost all OSes
difficult if not impossible to install without some sort of tech
support.

On the other hand, my 6yr old son fully installed and uses Fedora 11 and
is on the internet. I just gave him the DVD and told him how to get the
laptop to boot from DVD. OK, I did have to install some non-default
packages a few days after for him but none that were crucial.

It all depends on the end user.

On Tue, 2009-08-04 at 12:35 +0100, Alun Rowe wrote:
>   
> 
> 
> Ask a genuine user to install some software on it.  I know it’s a LOT
> better than it used to be but my dad still couldn’t do it.
> 
> Alun
> 
> 
> On 04/08/2009 11:31, "Brian Butterworth" 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe 
> ...
>  Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux
> based.  It’s far too geeky to use still.
> 
> Your final pronouncement is interesting.  How can you
> justify it?
> 
>  
> 
> 
> Alun
> 
> 
> 
> On 04/08/2009 08:13, "Dave Crossland"
> http://d...@lab6.com> > wrote:
> 
> Have you heard of Red Hat?
> 
> On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, "Alun
> Rowe"
>   > 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> The problem with a 'free
> digital society'  is that
> people need salaries.
> 
> Ask the music/film industry
> what they think.
> 
> I love the idea of utopia but
> we all know that unicorns
> don't exist, right?
> On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave
> Crossland"   >
> wrote: > Hi, > > What about
> the case fo...
> 
> Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet
> Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame
> Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44
> 8700 33...
>  
> 
> This message (and any associated
> files) is intended only for the use of
> the individual or entity to which it
> is addressed and may contain
> information that is confidential,
> subject to copyright or constitutes a
> trade secret. If you are not the
> intended recipient you are hereby
> notified that any dissemination,
> copying or distribution of this
> message, or files associated with this
> message, is strictly prohibited. If
> you have received this message in
> error, please notify us immediately by
> replying to the message and deleting
> it from your computer. Messages sent
> to and from us may be monitored.
> 
>  
> 
> Internet communications cannot be
> guaranteed to be secure or error-free
> as information could be intercepted,
>   

RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Andrew Bowden]

Out of interest, did you get him to try using a tar.gz file or a
deb/rpm?
 
I ask as tar.gz is a pain in the backside.  This cannot be denied.   But
then I use Linux on all my home PCs and almost never use them for
software installation.  
 
For my mind, using DEBs or RPMs from central repositories is a FAR FAR
FAR superior way of managing your software than the Windows method of
downloading random files from random sites, each of which use a random
installation routine!  This is especially true with upgrades.  I can
upgrade my entire Ubuntu box with complete ease.  
 
However it requires a user to be told "this is what you do with
software".
 
But lets be honest - this is not a Linux thing.  When I first tried to
installed software on OS-X, I got completely thrown and that's probably
the easiest installation method going!  It wasn't that it was hard -
just that no one told me what to do.
 
So software companies either do everything like Windows because
"everyone knows what to do", or they do something which may be better
but which people have to learn something new.
 
 




From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk
[mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Alun Rowe
Sent: 04 August 2009 12:36
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
        Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?


 

Ask a genuine user to install some software on it.  I know it's a LOT
better than it used to be but my dad still couldn't do it.

Alun


On 04/08/2009 11:31, "Brian Butterworth"  wrote:





2009/8/4 Alun Rowe 


...
 Mere users don't stand a chance with anything Linux
based.  It's far too geeky to use still.

Your final pronouncement is interesting.  How can you
justify it?

 




Alun



On 04/08/2009 08:13, "Dave Crossland"
http://d...@lab6.com> > wrote:



Have you heard of Red Hat?



On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, "Alun Rowe"
http://alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk> > wrote:


The problem with a 'free digital
society'  is that people need salaries.

Ask the music/film industry what they
think.

I love the idea of utopia but we all
know that unicorns don't exist, right?
On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave
Crossland" http://d...@lab6.com> > wrote: > Hi, > > What
about the case fo...

Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2
Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33...


 

This message (and any associated files)
is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is
addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to
copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended
recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or
distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is
strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please
notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from
your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.

 

Internet communications cannot be
guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be
intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or
contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any
errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment,
that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is
required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions
presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
represent those of the company.





Alun Rowe
Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame
Oxfordshire OX9 3EW 
Tel: +44 

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Alun Rowe]

 
Ask a genuine user to install some software on it.  I know it¹s a LOT better
than it used to be but my dad still couldn¹t do it.

Alun


On 04/08/2009 11:31, "Brian Butterworth"  wrote:

> 
> 
> 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe 
>> ...
>>  Mere users don¹t stand a chance with anything Linux based.  It¹s far too
>> geeky to use still.
>> 
>> Your final pronouncement is interesting.  How can you justify it?
>> 
>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Alun
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 04/08/2009 08:13, "Dave Crossland" http://d...@lab6.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
 Have you heard of Red Hat?
 
> On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, "Alun Rowe"   > wrote:
> 
>  
> The problem with a 'free digital society'  is that people need salaries.
> 
> Ask the music/film industry what they think.
> 
> I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist,
> right?
> On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave Crossland"   > wrote: > Hi, > > What about the case fo...
> 
> Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9
> 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33...
   
 
 This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the
 individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information
 that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret.
 If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any
 dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated
 with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
 message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message
 and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be
 monitored.
 
  
 
 Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
 information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late
 or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept
 responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this
 message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail
 transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy
 version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and
 do not necessarily represent those of the company.
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Alun Rowe
>>> Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW
>>> Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906
>>> Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk
>>>   
>>> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
>>> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great
>>> Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
>>> 
>>> 



Alun Rowe
Pentangle Internet Limited
2 Buttermarket
Thame
Oxfordshire
OX9 3EW
Tel: +44 8700 339905
Fax: +44 8700 339906
Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk 
Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and 
Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great 
Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP

RE: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Deirdre Harvey]

> My 50+ year old parents (decidedly non-geeky) parents don't 
> seem have issues with their Kubuntu machine they use for web, 
> email & ksirtet (tetris).
> 
> My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) also doesn't 
> seem to have issues with Debian + Kmail.

Did they set those machines up all by themselves or did you help them a
little bit? Do they call you if they need a bit of help?

Having a helpful geek in the family can go a long way to easing the fear
of using systems that other "mere users" (yuck) might struggle with.

Basically I'm accusing you of being their tech support ;)

Deirdre Harvey :: Web Producer :: BBC Newsline ::
Newsroom :: BBC Broadcasting House :: Ormeau Avenue :: Belfast BT2 8HQ
::
ph. 02890 338264
http://bbc.co.uk/newsline

 

> -Original Message-
> From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk 
> [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Tim Dobson
> Sent: 04 August 2009 12:09
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
> 
> Alex Mace wrote:
> >> Mere users don't stand a chance with anything Linux based. 
>  It's far 
> >> too geeky to use still.
> > 
> > Well, obviously. You don't see any "mere users" using Android based 
> > phones, Tivos, routers, etc, etc. do you?
> 

> 
> If these aren't "mere users" who are? :)
> 
> Tim
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To 
> unsubscribe, please visit 
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>   Unofficial list archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> 

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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Tim Dobson]

Alex Mace wrote:
Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based.  It’s far 
too geeky to use still.


Well, obviously. You don't see any "mere users" using Android based 
phones, Tivos, routers, etc, etc. do you? 


My 50+ year old parents (decidedly non-geeky) parents don't seem have 
issues with their Kubuntu machine they use for web, email & ksirtet 
(tetris).


My 90+ year old Grandmother (also non-geeky) also doesn't seem to have 
issues with Debian + Kmail.


If these aren't "mere users" who are? :)

Tim
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

2009/8/4 Alex Mace 

> Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based.  It’s far too
> geeky to use still.
>
>
> Well, obviously. You don't see any "mere users" using Android based phones,
> Tivos, routers, etc, etc. do you?
>

Or all those millions of LAMP websites out there...



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Alex Mace]

Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based.  It’s far  
too geeky to use still.


Well, obviously. You don't see any "mere users" using Android based  
phones, Tivos, routers, etc, etc. do you?

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

2009/8/4 Alun Rowe 

>...
>  Mere users don’t stand a chance with anything Linux based.  It’s far too
> geeky to use still.
>

Your final pronouncement is interesting.  How can you justify it?



>
>
> Alun
>
>
>
> On 04/08/2009 08:13, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:
>
> Have you heard of Red Hat?
>
> On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, "Alun Rowe"  wrote:
>
>
> The problem with a 'free digital society'  is that people need salaries.
>
> Ask the music/film industry what they think.
>
> I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right?
> On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave Crossland"  wrote: > Hi, > >
> What about the case fo...
>
> Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9
> 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33...
>
>
>
> This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the
> individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information
> that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If
> you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated
> with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message
> in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
> deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be
> monitored.
>
>
>
> Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
> incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility
> for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any
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> verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or
> opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent those of the company.
>
>
>
>  *Alun Rowe*
>
> *Pentangle Internet Limited*
>
> 2 Buttermarket
>
> Thame
>
> Oxfordshire
>
> OX9 3EW
>
> Tel: +44 8700 339905
>
> Fax: +44 8700 339906
> *Please direct all support requests to 
> **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*
>
> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great
> Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
>



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Phil Whitehouse]

I used to work for the open source innovation arm of BT, during which time I
wrote this blog post on the subject:

http://philwhitehouse.blogspot.com/2008/06/how-to-make-money-from-open-source.html

Your email brings to mind the joke where someone was asked for directions,
and the response was "You shouldn't start from here". Essentially open
source is viable in some cases and less so in others - but it depends on
many factors.

Cheers,
Phil

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Alun Rowe wrote:

>
>   Yes I have but it is fairly unique.
>
> How would you obtain funding for an idea which had no IP of it own?
>
> “Do you own the patent on this?” - er no it’s open source.
> “Can anyone arrive in the marketplace tomorrow and replicate what you do?”
> - er yes.
>
> Like I say I love the utopian model but I can’t see it happening for a long
> long time.  Companies NEED to be able to maintain their own technology
> without simply passing it to their competitors on a plate.
>
> Anyway it’s no surprise people pay Red Hat for support.  Mere users don’t
> stand a chance with anything Linux based.  It’s far too geeky to use still.
>
> Alun
>
>
>
> On 04/08/2009 08:13, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:
>
> Have you heard of Red Hat?
>
> On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, "Alun Rowe"  wrote:
>
>
> The problem with a 'free digital society'  is that people need salaries.
>
> Ask the music/film industry what they think.
>
> I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right?
> On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave Crossland"  wrote: > Hi, > >
> What about the case fo...
>
> Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9
> 3EW Tel: +44 8700 33...
>
>
>
> This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the
> individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information
> that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If
> you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated
> with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message
> in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
> deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be
> monitored.
>
>
>
> Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
> incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility
> for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any
> attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If
> verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or
> opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent those of the company.
>
>
>
>  *Alun Rowe*
>
> *Pentangle Internet Limited*
>
> 2 Buttermarket
>
> Thame
>
> Oxfordshire
>
> OX9 3EW
>
> Tel: +44 8700 339905
>
> Fax: +44 8700 339906
> *Please direct all support requests to 
> **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*
>
> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great
> Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
>



-- 
http://philwhitehouse.blogspot.com

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Alun Rowe]

 
No it¹s not confusion.  Unfortunately one leads to the other.  Open
standards whilst highly beneficial in some fields eg Web Standards can also
be highly uncompetitive in others eg Telephony.

Telephony is all about the quality of the service you receive so the
standard IS the product.
Websites are about content so the standard is merely a conduit for the
product.

Preaching open standards is fine AS LONG as you understand the deep economic
issues behind them


On 04/08/2009 08:03, "Brian Butterworth"  wrote:

> 2009/8/4 Alun Rowe 
>>   
>> The problem with a 'free digital society'  is that people need salaries.
>> 
>> 
>> ah, the old confusion of gratis and libre.  
>>  
>>> 
>>> Ask the music/film industry what they think.
>>> 
>>> I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right?
>>> 
>>> On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:
>>> 
 Hi, What about the case for a free digital society? Regards, Dave
> On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, "Alun Rowe" < 
> alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>   
> No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity).
> 
> The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat
> depth before embracing it.
> 
> Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime! On 3 Aug 2009, at
> 17:10, "Dave Crossland" <  d...@lab6.com> wrote:
>> > Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... >
>> > Regards, Dave >> >> ...
> 
> Alun Rowe
> Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel:
> +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906
> Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk
>   
> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close,
> Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
 >> >> >> Discuss mailing list >>
  disc...@lists.autonomo.us >>
 
 http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list...This message (and any
 associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or
 entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is
 confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret.
 If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that
 any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or
 files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you
 have received this message in error, please notify us immediately
 by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
 Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.   Internet
 communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
 information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed,
 arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not
 accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present
 in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of
 e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a
 hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those
 of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the
 company.
> 
> 
> Alun Rowe
> Pentangle Internet Limited
> 
> 2 Buttermarket
> 
> Thame
> 
> Oxfordshire
> 
> OX9 3EW
> 
> Tel: +44 8700 339905
> 
> Fax: +44 8700 339906
> 
> Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk
>   
> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close,
> Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
> 
> 



Alun Rowe
Pentangle Internet Limited
2 Buttermarket
Thame
Oxfordshire
OX9 3EW
Tel: +44 8700 339905
Fax: +44 8700 339906
Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk 
Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and 
Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great 
Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Alun Rowe]

 
Yes I have but it is fairly unique.

How would you obtain funding for an idea which had no IP of it own?

³Do you own the patent on this?² - er no it¹s open source.
³Can anyone arrive in the marketplace tomorrow and replicate what you do?² -
er yes.

Like I say I love the utopian model but I can¹t see it happening for a long
long time.  Companies NEED to be able to maintain their own technology
without simply passing it to their competitors on a plate.

Anyway it¹s no surprise people pay Red Hat for support.  Mere users don¹t
stand a chance with anything Linux based.  It¹s far too geeky to use still.

Alun


On 04/08/2009 08:13, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:

> Have you heard of Red Hat?
> 
>> On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, "Alun Rowe"  wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> The problem with a 'free digital society'  is that people need salaries.
>> 
>> Ask the music/film industry what they think.
>> 
>> I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right?
>> On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave Crossland"  wrote: > Hi, > >
>> What about the case fo...
>> 
>> Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW
>> Tel: +44 8700 33...
>   
> 
> This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the
> individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that
> is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you
> are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
> copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this
> message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error,
> please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from
> your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.
> 
>  
> 
> Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
> incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for
> any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment,
> that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is
> required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented
> are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the
> company.
> 



Alun Rowe
Pentangle Internet Limited
2 Buttermarket
Thame
Oxfordshire
OX9 3EW
Tel: +44 8700 339905
Fax: +44 8700 339906
Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk 
Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and 
Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great 
Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Scot McSweeney-Roberts]

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 08:13, Dave Crossland  wrote:

> Have you heard of Red Hat?
>

There was an episode of Global Business on the World Service about them last
week

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003r602

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Dave Crossland]

Have you heard of Red Hat?

On 4 Aug 2009, 7:02 AM, "Alun Rowe"  wrote:


 The problem with a 'free digital society'  is that people need salaries.

Ask the music/film industry what they think.

I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right?

On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave Crossland"  wrote: > Hi, > >
What about the case fo...


Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9
3EW Tel: +44 8700 33...

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

2009/8/4 Alun Rowe 

>
>  The problem with a 'free digital society'  is that people need salaries.
>


ah, the old confusion of gratis and libre.


>
> Ask the music/film industry what they think.
>
> I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist, right?
>
> On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> What about the case for a free digital society?
>
> Regards, Dave
>
> On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, "Alun Rowe" < 
> alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>  No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity).
>
> The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat
> depth before embracing it.
>
> Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime!
>
> On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, "Dave Crossland" < d...@lab6.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... > >
> Regards, Dave >> >> ...
>
>
>  *Alun Rowe*
>
> *Pentangle Internet Limited*
>
> 2 Buttermarket
>
> Thame
>
> Oxfordshire
>
> OX9 3EW
>
> Tel: +44 8700 339905
>
> Fax: +44 8700 339906
> *Please direct all support requests to 
> **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*
>
> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great
> Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
>
> >> >> >> Discuss mailing list >> 
> disc...@lists.autonomo.us >> 
> http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list...
>
> This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the
> individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information
> that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If
> you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated
> with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message
> in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
> deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be
> monitored.
>
>
>
> Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
> incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility
> for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any
> attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If
> verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or
> opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent those of the company.
>
>
>
>  *Alun Rowe*
>
> *Pentangle Internet Limited*
>
> 2 Buttermarket
>
> Thame
>
> Oxfordshire
>
> OX9 3EW
>
> Tel: +44 8700 339905
>
> Fax: +44 8700 339906
> *Please direct all support requests to 
> **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*
>
> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great
> Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
>



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Alun Rowe]

The problem with a 'free digital society'  is that people need salaries.

Ask the music/film industry what they think.

I love the idea of utopia but we all know that unicorns don't exist,  
right?


On 3 Aug 2009, at 20:14, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:


Hi,

What about the case for a free digital society?

Regards, Dave

On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, "Alun Rowe"  wrote:



No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity).

The business case for open standards has to be thought through  
ingreat depth before embracing it.


Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime!
On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:

> Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike  
again... > > Regards, Dave >> >> ...




Alun Rowe
Pentangle Internet Limited

2 Buttermarket

Thame

Oxfordshire

OX9 3EW

Tel: +44 8700 339905

Fax: +44 8700 339906

Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk
Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in  
England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1  
Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
>> >> >> Discuss mailing list >> disc...@lists.autonomo.us >> http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list 
...


This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the  
use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may  
contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or  
constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient  
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or  
distribution of this message, or files associated with this  
message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message  
in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message  
and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us  
may be monitored.




Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error- 
free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost,  
destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses.  
Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or  
omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that  
have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is  
required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions  
presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily  
represent those of the company.







Alun Rowe
Pentangle Internet Limited
2 Buttermarket
Thame
Oxfordshire
OX9 3EW
Tel: +44 8700 339905
Fax: +44 8700 339906
Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk 
Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

I meant to post a link with my quote...
http://www.betanews.com/article/The-Google-Voice-battle-What-is-Apple-afraid-of/1249327992

2009/8/3 Frank Wales 

> Brian Butterworth wrote:
> > Thanks to all the Appleheads we are now at the  "If you want a picture
> > of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever" stage
> > aren't we?
>
> Well, you have to imagine it, because you're not allowed to copy it.
> --
> Frank Wales [fr...@limov.com]
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>  Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>



-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Frank Wales]

Brian Butterworth wrote:
> Thanks to all the Appleheads we are now at the  "If you want a picture
> of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever" stage
> aren't we?

Well, you have to imagine it, because you're not allowed to copy it.
-- 
Frank Wales [fr...@limov.com]
-
Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Brian Butterworth]

2009/8/3 Dave Crossland 

> Hi,
>
> What about the case for a free digital society?
>

Thanks to all the Appleheads we are now at the  "If you want a picture of
the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - for ever" stage aren't
we?

> Regards, Dave
>
> On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, "Alun Rowe"  wrote:
>
>
>  No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity).
>
> The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat
> depth before embracing it.
>
> Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime!
>
> On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:
>
> > Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... > >
> Regards, Dave >> >> ...
>
>
>  *Alun Rowe*
>
> *Pentangle Internet Limited*
>
> 2 Buttermarket
>
> Thame
>
> Oxfordshire
>
> OX9 3EW
>
> Tel: +44 8700 339905
>
> Fax: +44 8700 339906
> *Please direct all support requests to 
> **it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*
>
> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great
> Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
>
> >> >> >> Discuss mailing list >> disc...@lists.autonomo.us >>
> http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list...
>
> This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the
> individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information
> that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If
> you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated
> with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message
> in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
> deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be
> monitored.
>
>
>
> Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
> information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
> incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility
> for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any
> attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If
> verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or
> opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent those of the company.
>
>


-- 

Brian Butterworth

follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist
web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover
advice, since 2002

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Dave Crossland]

Hi,

What about the case for a free digital society?

Regards, Dave

On 3 Aug 2009, 6:36 PM, "Alun Rowe"  wrote:


 No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity).

The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat depth
before embracing it.

Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime!

On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:

> Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again... > >
Regards, Dave >> >> ...


 *Alun Rowe*

*Pentangle Internet Limited*

2 Buttermarket

Thame

Oxfordshire

OX9 3EW

Tel: +44 8700 339905

Fax: +44 8700 339906
*Please direct all support requests to
**it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk*

Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great
Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP

>> >> >> Discuss mailing list >> disc...@lists.autonomo.us >>
http://lists.autonomo.us/mailman/list...

This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the
individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information
that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If
you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated
with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message
in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be
monitored.



Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as
information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or
incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility
for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any
attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If
verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
represent those of the company.

Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Richard Lockwood]

Don't worry about Dave, he's just trolling again.

Cheers,

Rich.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Alun Rowe wrote:
>
>
> No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity).
> The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat depth
> before embracing it.
> Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime!
>
> On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:
>
> Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again...
>
> Regards, Dave
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: "Nathan Willis" 
> Date: 3 Aug 2009, 4:05 PM
> Subject: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
> To: "autonomo.us discussion mailing list" 
>
> Seems like this would be a good opportunity to discuss the free
> alternatives:
> http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/if-skype-goes-who-would-fill-gap-106880
>
> Executive summary: eBay is in an acrimonius patent lawsuit with a company
> called Joltid that owns a patent on something used by Skype; Joltid is
> claiming that eBay violated their license and has "terminated" it, a
> situation that if upheld by the court would force them to deactivate Skype.
> Highly doubtful that that will come to pass, but I suppose you never know.
>
> Nate
> --
> nathan.p.willis
> nwil...@glyphography.com
> aim/ym/gtalk:n8willis
> flickr.com/photos/willis
>
>
>
> Alun Rowe
>
> Pentangle Internet Limited
>
> 2 Buttermarket
>
> Thame
>
> Oxfordshire
>
> OX9 3EW
>
> Tel: +44 8700 339905
>
> Fax: +44 8700 339906
>
> Please direct all support requests to it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk
> Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and
> Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great
> Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP
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Re: [backstage] Fwd: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?

[Alun Rowe]

No doubt some palms will be crossed with silver (or equity).

The business case for open standards has to be thought through ingreat  
depth before embracing it.


Also Skypes network has been around for a longtime!

On 3 Aug 2009, at 17:10, "Dave Crossland"  wrote:


Proprietary software and centtalised network services strike again...

Regards, Dave

-- Forwarded message --
From: "Nathan Willis" 
Date: 3 Aug 2009, 4:05 PM
Subject: [Autonomo.us] Skype, out?
To: "autonomo.us discussion mailing list" 

Seems like this would be a good opportunity to discuss the free  
alternatives: http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/if-skype-goes-who-would-fill-gap-106880


Executive summary: eBay is in an acrimonius patent lawsuit with a  
company called Joltid that owns a patent on something used by Skype;  
Joltid is claiming that eBay violated their license and has  
"terminated" it, a situation that if upheld by the court would force  
them to deactivate Skype.  Highly doubtful that that will come to  
pass, but I suppose you never know.


Nate
--
nathan.p.willis
nwil...@glyphography.com
aim/ym/gtalk:n8willis
flickr.com/photos/willis




Alun Rowe
Pentangle Internet Limited
2 Buttermarket
Thame
Oxfordshire
OX9 3EW
Tel: +44 8700 339905
Fax: +44 8700 339906
Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk 
Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP



Discuss mailing list
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Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error- 
free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost,  
destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore,  
we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are  
present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a  
result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please  
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