Re: [Bacula-users] Bacula Status -- change of direction for my participation in the project
On Friday 20 April 2007 00:58, Steen wrote: Torsdag 19 april 2007 12:10 skrev Kern Sibbald: Hello, Open Source is a fantastic success story, and shows every sign of becoming a gigantic snow ball over the next few years. Usage of Bacula is increasing significantly, which is very pleasing. However, the development side of Bacula, with one or two exceptions, I consider a total failure. Very strong wording here Perhaps but I don't think so, in the limited context that I meant it. See my response to this in an email to Arno ... Bacula has received quite a number of submissions other than my contributions over the years. However, in general, these submissions have been made without documentation (leaving it to me to document) and the developer after a short time has for various reasons moved on to other things (change of job, change of life status, other interests, ...). All this is normal, but what I find very disappointing is that with only a couple of exceptions that come to mind there are no permanent Bacula developers other than myself. I never meant to imply that this was uncommon only that it was putting an undue load on me. I have provided my solution for unloading tasks that are currently on me, which involves unsupporting certain distributions. To the extent that those tasks are picked up else where as some of them are currently being done, those distributions will become supported. Just to set things into perspective - I think this is not so uncommon in opensource projects. I can give you one specific example, which is the development of the postfix mailserver. Vietse Venema mentioned last year in a talk, that though several people contributed code to the project, the quality and level of integration with existing code is usually so, that he finds it easier to take the idea and implement it from scratch. So most of the code have been witten by one man. He also mentioned the leverage for the project was the modularisation on one hand and the plugin API on the other, so that other people can interface their applications with his. That is just one example, but I have noticed other projects in similar situations. There is of course the other types of bigger projects that attracts a larger following. I think it is not so strange. People who like to work with databases are often developer types - so there are several large opensource db-projects. People who like to work with backup systems are more of the admin types - and as you indicate - a backup system is a demanding beast to handle codewise - even for a developer type of person, not to mention the very low level of some parts of it. Seen this way from the outside I think total failure could just as well equal highly successful under the limited and constrained conditions that you describe and are working under. Yes, thanks. I *do* think the project is successfull, possibly too much so ... :-) I think that it is very good that you move with what you feel is right, and better even if something can be organized for the things you would like to leave behind like project lists, web-site and documentation etc. 3. As of today, the gnome-console (renamed bgnome-console) and wx-console (renamed bwx-console) are deprecated and no longer supported by me. If someone else wants to pick up support of them, I'll be very happy to accept patches. Are you still going foreward with the gui? Yes. 5. I will be devoting more of my time to a project that I previously mentioned that will provide training and support for Bacula engineers and for 3rd party Bacula Service organizations. The support provided will not be direct customer support but certification and level 3 support for professional service companies with the goal of promoting Bacula usage and code submissions. The concept here is that I am convinced that commercial organizations want to use Bacula (many use Solaris, so it is critical for them) but are hindered by the lack of qualified professional service. By insuring professional services for Bacula, I believe that we can compensate for the lack of commuity participation in the Bacula development process. This is because commerical/governmental/educational organizations will make significant contributions to the project when they have professional support. I believe you are right on target here - if there are such organizations then it will certainly add to the completeness and maturity of the oss solutions that can be offered. I'm sure the support services for the backup solution are a must for many. Thanks. We'll see commercial acceptances feeds back more code/support. I think so, if not, I don't expect the project to be any worse off in a year from now :-) Regards, Kern Best regards, Kern - This
[Bacula-users] Bacula Status -- change of direction for my participation in the project
Hello, Open Source is a fantastic success story, and shows every sign of becoming a gigantic snow ball over the next few years. Usage of Bacula is increasing significantly, which is very pleasing. However, the development side of Bacula, with one or two exceptions, I consider a total failure. Bacula has received quite a number of submissions other than my contributions over the years. However, in general, these submissions have been made without documentation (leaving it to me to document) and the developer after a short time has for various reasons moved on to other things (change of job, change of life status, other interests, ...). All this is normal, but what I find very disappointing is that with only a couple of exceptions that come to mind there are no permanent Bacula developers other than myself. (Just so that there is no confusion or ill feelings, Scott, Dan, and Eric have been around for quite a while and have and are making significant contributions -- there are certainly others who don't come to mind immediately, so, please accept my appologies -- also, I think the users list is working quite well. What I am talking about is the lack of highly qualified, committed, and permanent Bacula developers). My point here, is that today, I am essentially the only developer doing documentation, the only developer fixing bugs, the only developer doing testing on the different platforms. After 7+ years of doing it 12-14 hours a day for 6 and sometimes 7 days a week, I am more than a bit disappointed that there isn't more help. The fault may possibly be my own, but what ever the case may be that is where we are. As an example of what I am lamenting here is that there is a Win 2003 bug open since 20 March where restore of encrypted (and compressed if I remember right) data fails. Another example is that despite my repeated requests over something like a six month period, no one (at this moment) has signed up to do Win32, Solaris, or FreeBSD regression testing. My solution to this problem is several fold: 1. As of release 2.2.0, Win32, Solaris, and FreeBSD will no longer be officially supported platforms. So that there is no misunderstanding, I definitely would like to see them supported, but I am no longer going to do it alone, which means that I will accept patches for them, I will not accept bug reports that are specific to those platforms, they will be documented as use if it works for you but don't complain if it doesn't, and the project will no longer supply binaries for the Director and Storage daemon for Win32. Users can build it themselves if they want to use it. 2. I previously suggested creating a formal Bacula Open Source project or a foundation, but I have totally dropped that idea due to lack of community participation. 3. As of today, the gnome-console (renamed bgnome-console) and wx-console (renamed bwx-console) are deprecated and no longer supported by me. If someone else wants to pick up support of them, I'll be very happy to accept patches. 4. I am no longer personally going to maintain the projects list (Feature Requests). If someone wants to pick up maintaining it including the voting, I would be very happy. Obviously I'll continue to work on projects that personally interest me. 5. I will be devoting more of my time to a project that I previously mentioned that will provide training and support for Bacula engineers and for 3rd party Bacula Service organizations. The support provided will not be direct customer support but certification and level 3 support for professional service companies with the goal of promoting Bacula usage and code submissions. The concept here is that I am convinced that commercial organizations want to use Bacula (many use Solaris, so it is critical for them) but are hindered by the lack of qualified professional service. By insuring professional services for Bacula, I believe that we can compensate for the lack of commuity participation in the Bacula development process. This is because commerical/governmental/educational organizations will make significant contributions to the project when they have professional support. Best regards, Kern - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Bacula Status -- change of direction for my participation in the project
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kern Sibbald wrote: As an example of what I am lamenting here is that there is a Win 2003 bug open since 20 March where restore of encrypted (and compressed if I remember right) data fails. Another example is that despite my repeated requests over something like a six month period, no one (at this moment) has signed up to do Win32, Solaris, or FreeBSD regression testing. I'm somewhat surprised that no one more qualified has stepped forward (I am not really a developer so I would be hard-pressed to actually patch anything, and I'm really a small shop regardless), but I am able to do Solaris regression testing. I do not have an autochanger -- not sure if I'm missing any other required hardware -- but Solaris support is not really something I can lose. The trouble is, what happens when something fails a regression test? If you aren't going to be accepting bug reports on those platforms and I can't fix them, where does that leave us? For a third party to step in of some kind? I don't really see a problem with what you're proposing -- and I know that work that is essentially volunteer is very annoying if you have no help and have repeatedly asked for it, I just want to know if there's even a point to my doing testing. - -- _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ |Y#| | | |\/| | \ |\ | | |Ryan Novosielski - Systems Programmer III |$| |__| | | |__/ | \| _| |[EMAIL PROTECTED] - 973/972.0922 (2-0922) \__/ Univ. of Med. and Dent.|IST/AST - NJMS Medical Science Bldg - C630 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGJ5Dgmb+gadEcsb4RAgx1AKCTkZGLbZ+37IoPBZyWsy9TvEr/JgCfWJ55 aSPE4Ll5V+O7On9eshDEemA= =qDIK -END PGP SIGNATURE- - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Bacula Status -- change of direction for my participation in the project
Sorry that I can't help develop. But I can help drum up interest. Go digg it, and (try to) drive it to the front page. http://digg.com/software/Popular_mature_open_source_backup_project_needs_developers_www_bacula_org brian- Kern Sibbald wrote: Hello, Open Source is a fantastic success story, and shows every sign of becoming a gigantic snow ball over the next few years. Usage of Bacula is increasing significantly, which is very pleasing. However, the development side of Bacula, with one or two exceptions, I consider a total failure. - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Bacula Status -- change of direction for my participation in the project
For us, we haven't had a lot of time to add back to Bacula. I have a student that is working to produce a web front end for restores, but it has been quite a challenge. I'd really like to have an API that we could hook into the director directly, but I haven't had the time to even look at it since my plate is very full. I have found Bacula as a very good piece of software, I love the simplicity, the cross-platform ability. I wish I only had half the projects on my plate to add back to Bacula and other OpenSource projects. I'm not a programmer so anything that I contribute will not be very polished. Robert On 4/19/07 10:35 AM, Brian Debelius [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry that I can't help develop. But I can help drum up interest. Go digg it, and (try to) drive it to the front page. http://digg.com/software/Popular_mature_open_source_backup_project_needs_devel opers_www_bacula_org brian- Kern Sibbald wrote: Hello, Open Source is a fantastic success story, and shows every sign of becoming a gigantic snow ball over the next few years. Usage of Bacula is increasing significantly, which is very pleasing. However, the development side of Bacula, with one or two exceptions, I consider a total failure. - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users Robert LeBlanc BioAg Computer Support Brigham Young University [EMAIL PROTECTED] (801)422-1882 - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Bacula Status -- change of direction for my participation in the project
Brian Debelius wrote: Sorry that I can't help develop. But I can help drum up interest. Go digg it, and (try to) drive it to the front page. http://digg.com/software/Popular_mature_open_source_backup_project_needs_developers_www_bacula_org brian- Kern Sibbald wrote: Hello, Open Source is a fantastic success story, and shows every sign of becoming a gigantic snow ball over the next few years. Usage of Bacula is increasing significantly, which is very pleasing. However, the development side of Bacula, with one or two exceptions, I consider a total failure. ok, I contributed my infinitesimal weight to the digg. However, I would also like to make a comment. I hear an element of discouragement in Kern's message. I can certainly empathize with that as well as understand it, but it isn't going to draw programmers in. It emanates too much negativity. If someone could draw up a PR piece (qua job announcement) with an upbeat feeling to it, give it a prominent place on the bacula site, and then start blogging or digging that link, it might have a better likelihood of attracting some programmers. I'm not sure, however, of the dynamics of becoming involved. It seems to me that the motivation for contributing code comes from an involvement in using the software. If you don't get paid for the work, why would you jump into it unless it was something that mattered to you in the first place? You want something fixed, or added, and you are capable of programming, so you do it and contribute the code. Eventually, your dependence on the product and your pride in having contributed to it combine to form a commitment that leads to greater involvement. So, it might be a sort of cart and horse question. --- Chris Hoogendyk - O__ Systems Administrator c/ /'_ --- Biology Geology Departments (*) \(*) -- 140 Morrill Science Center ~~ - University of Massachusetts, Amherst [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Erdös 4 - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Bacula Status -- change of direction for my participation in the project
Hi, again, On 4/19/2007 12:10 PM, Kern Sibbald wrote: ... 4. I am no longer personally going to maintain the projects list (Feature Requests). If someone wants to pick up maintaining it including the voting, I would be very happy. Obviously I'll continue to work on projects that personally interest me. Ok, I think I can do this. Give me some days to get things organized... Arno -- IT-Service Lehmann[EMAIL PROTECTED] Arno Lehmann http://www.its-lehmann.de - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
Re: [Bacula-users] Bacula Status -- change of direction for my participation in the project
Torsdag 19 april 2007 12:10 skrev Kern Sibbald: Hello, Open Source is a fantastic success story, and shows every sign of becoming a gigantic snow ball over the next few years. Usage of Bacula is increasing significantly, which is very pleasing. However, the development side of Bacula, with one or two exceptions, I consider a total failure. Very strong wording here Bacula has received quite a number of submissions other than my contributions over the years. However, in general, these submissions have been made without documentation (leaving it to me to document) and the developer after a short time has for various reasons moved on to other things (change of job, change of life status, other interests, ...). All this is normal, but what I find very disappointing is that with only a couple of exceptions that come to mind there are no permanent Bacula developers other than myself. Just to set things into perspective - I think this is not so uncommon in opensource projects. I can give you one specific example, which is the development of the postfix mailserver. Vietse Venema mentioned last year in a talk, that though several people contributed code to the project, the quality and level of integration with existing code is usually so, that he finds it easier to take the idea and implement it from scratch. So most of the code have been witten by one man. He also mentioned the leverage for the project was the modularisation on one hand and the plugin API on the other, so that other people can interface their applications with his. That is just one example, but I have noticed other projects in similar situations. There is of course the other types of bigger projects that attracts a larger following. I think it is not so strange. People who like to work with databases are often developer types - so there are several large opensource db-projects. People who like to work with backup systems are more of the admin types - and as you indicate - a backup system is a demanding beast to handle codewise - even for a developer type of person, not to mention the very low level of some parts of it. Seen this way from the outside I think total failure could just as well equal highly successful under the limited and constrained conditions that you describe and are working under. I think that it is very good that you move with what you feel is right, and better even if something can be organized for the things you would like to leave behind like project lists, web-site and documentation etc. 3. As of today, the gnome-console (renamed bgnome-console) and wx-console (renamed bwx-console) are deprecated and no longer supported by me. If someone else wants to pick up support of them, I'll be very happy to accept patches. Are you still going foreward with the gui? 5. I will be devoting more of my time to a project that I previously mentioned that will provide training and support for Bacula engineers and for 3rd party Bacula Service organizations. The support provided will not be direct customer support but certification and level 3 support for professional service companies with the goal of promoting Bacula usage and code submissions. The concept here is that I am convinced that commercial organizations want to use Bacula (many use Solaris, so it is critical for them) but are hindered by the lack of qualified professional service. By insuring professional services for Bacula, I believe that we can compensate for the lack of commuity participation in the Bacula development process. This is because commerical/governmental/educational organizations will make significant contributions to the project when they have professional support. I believe you are right on target here - if there are such organizations then it will certainly add to the completeness and maturity of the oss solutions that can be offered. I'm sure the support services for the backup solution are a must for many. Best regards, Kern - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users -- Best Regards Steen - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Bacula-users mailing list Bacula-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bacula-users
