subject:"Re\: Against nature..."

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Lots of interesting Raëlian sites, because I read them in the five Raëlian e 
books I downloaded onto my iPad. Interesting side note, I have seen a Theraveda 
Buddhist Facebook page attacking Raëlism and another Theraveda Buddhist website 
attacking Scientology. While, not explicitly identifying themselves as 
Theraveda, the authors of the web sites showed an ignorance of Mahayana and 
Vajrayana forms of Buddhism. The above websites compared Theraveda Buddhism to 
Raëlism and Scientology rather than Mahayana or Vajrayana. Their arguments 
assume all Buddhism is Theraveda Buddhism. 

Though, I personally think I-Kuan-Tao aka Yi-Guan-Dao, Raëlism, Scientology, 
Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya aka Qadianism, Baha'i Faith, Mission of Maitreya - Eternal 
Divine Path, Neo-Gnosticism, Islam, Ismailism, Foundation International, etc. 
are all skillful means to lead sentient beings closer to enlightenment. They 
are all useful to build a utopia and to benefit sentient beings in infinite 
ways. Bodhisattvas teach infinite dharmas to help even one to infinite sentient 
beings who practice them. The theory of said dharmas are the skillful means and 
the practice of them is what is important. I wouldn't take anything of the 
doctrinal and philosophical dimensions above to be skillful means. While it is 
beneficial to practice based on belief in the above doctrines and philosophies, 
it'd wouldn't be wise to mistake anything for anything other than skillful 
means.

http://www.apostasynow.org/
http://www.clonaid.com/
http://www.rael.org/
http://www.rael-science.org/
http://www.raelafrica.org/
http://www.raelianews.org/
http://www.raelradio.net/
http://www.subversions.com/
http://www.thereisnogod.info/
http://www.ufoland.com/

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 29, 2013, at 18:43, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Another message where I referenced Raëlism.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 19, 2013, at 23:35, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 There are a variety of religions in the world. While most either are 
 explicitly anti LGBTQQIA or neutral towards them, there are affirming 
 religious groups.
 
 Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism have affirming 
 factions. This is a specific denominational issue in Judaism and 
 Christianity. I could add Buddhism as well because of the Hinayana and 
 Mahayana divide on this issue. Most Hindus are on one side and conservative 
 Hindutva is on the other. Most Muslims are on one side and the liberal Al 
 Fatiha Foundation and liberal Imaan groups are on the other.
 
 Wicca, Unitarian Universalism, Eckankar, LaVeyanism, Raëlism, Neo-Druidism, 
 and the Native American Religion are affirming religions. Though, not listed 
 by Wikipedia, I would add Thelema as well to the list due to my own research.
 
 Religious Humanists and Religious Existentialists tend to be affirming as 
 well.
 
 I compiled the lists from Wikipedia articles on affirming religions, 
 organizations that support same sex marriage, religious views on same sex 
 marriage, etc.
 
 It's ironic that the leeway for interpretation in scripture present in the 
 top five religions allows for flexibility in this matter that the Baha'i 
 Faith lacks. 
 
 While LGBTQQIA people and allies are part of the top five religions, they do 
 tend to be drawn to the next seven as well. I wonder what are the religious 
 demographics of these people. 
 
 Skygram, do you know what religions these ex-Baha'is convert to or to 
 irreligion? How are they doing today? Do you still keep in contact with 
 them? Was it all for the better now, if they managed to convert to an 
 affirming religion or denomination? 
 
 This is especially noted in how lots of Unitarian Universalist churches have 
 extensive affirming programs in congregations which are known as Welcoming 
 Churches.
 
 It is sad for the ones who stay Baha'is, but they apostates probably have 
 moved on with their lives for the better. 
 
 While I didn't come to my current religious affiliations because they were 
 affirming, but rather for other reasons. I choose Unitarian Universalism 
 because of the diversity of religious beliefs that can fit within that big 
 tent. Religious Humanism because I liked reading the Humanist Manifestoes, 
 but didn't care for Secular Humanism. Buddhist Humanism, Humanistic 
 Buddhism, Nichiren Buddhism, Buddhist Modernism, Engaged Buddhism, Buddhist 
 Protestantism, etc. because of my prior like of Religious Humanism and my 
 liking of Mahayana Buddhism.
 
 I was interested in Eckankar because of soul travel and various other 
 things. I was interested in Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism and hence 
 Neo-Druidism and Wicca. I was interested in various UFO religions including 
 Raëlism. 
 
 I like the Golden Rule which is in all religions. I like the page on 
 Wikipedia listing the various formulations across religions. Buddhism and 
 Humanism have

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
To copy and paste from a prior email.

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I generously bless people. It's what I do. Also, I'm trained in logic and can 
notify people when they're using fallacies. Also, I'm an ex non dis enrolled, 
which means I left without dis enrolling, so I still keep getting Baha'i emails 
and mail. I did discover Unitarian Universalism, Humanism, and Buddhism over 
the time afterwards. I also do study Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya, Foundation 
International, I Kuan Tao aka Yi Guan Dao, Mission of Maitreya - Eternal Divine 
Path, Neo Gnosticism, Raëlism, and Scientology as well regularly.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:00, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 ...And yet you so often bless us with your comments. Why are we so blessed?
  
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Actually I only believe in Unitarian Universalism, Mahayana Nichiren 
 Buddhism, Religious Humanism, as my survey results if asked by a survey.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:04, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to study everything and commit to nothing. This can be a path to 
 insanity. I hope that is not your fate.
 On 04/18/2013 11:37 AM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New 
 Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, 
 Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and 
 Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal 
 Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM 
 University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, 
 Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various 
 Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements are 
 good examples to use. 
  remainder deleted 

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 29, 2013, at 17:43, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Stephen,
 
 Are you a bahá'í?
 
 Hasan
 
 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Lunes, 29 de abril, 2013 1:13 P.M.
 Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hasan, any list of religions and spiritual traditions will show the almost 
 infinite number of Faiths, Communities, Revelations, etc. that exist and are 
 extant, not to mention extinct and reconstructed ones. 
 
 Also, in the topic on post conventional morality, the topic was more on the 
 variety of new religious movements and their impacts on morality in society.
 
 Hasan, you seem to hold that religions and spiritual traditions are all 
 intrinsically higher than philosophies and thoughts. I have no opinion on the 
 matter, but am familiar with various religions like Raëlism, Scientology, Neo 
 Gnosticism, Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya aka Qadianism, Happy Science aka Kofuku no 
 Kagaku, Sahaja Yoga, Rastafarianism, etc. I'm not that interested in them, 
 but I know about them is the point.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_(contemporary)
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddha_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_avatar_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mahdi_claimants
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 27, 2013, at 15:32, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hi,
 
 I read few messages of Stephen Gray, I think he trusts so much on 
 philosophers and thinkers. I think Kohlberg and others are nothing and just 
 vanishes when compared to Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation. 
 
 The Guardian wrote:
 Firmness in the Covenant is their Fortress, their greatest

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I shouldn't have listed Neo-Druidism, Wicca, and Thelema separately. They are 
all forms of Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism.

Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism (includes various ethnic, folk, and syncretic 
religions)
Unitarian Universalism
Eckankar
LeVeyanism
Raëlism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements

The mainstream of world religions can be divided into Abrahamic and Dharmic.

Abrahamic
Christianity
Islam
Judaimsm

Dharmic
Hinduism
Buddhism

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 29, 2013, at 18:43, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Another message where I referenced Raëlism.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 19, 2013, at 23:35, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 There are a variety of religions in the world. While most either are 
 explicitly anti LGBTQQIA or neutral towards them, there are affirming 
 religious groups.
 
 Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism have affirming 
 factions. This is a specific denominational issue in Judaism and 
 Christianity. I could add Buddhism as well because of the Hinayana and 
 Mahayana divide on this issue. Most Hindus are on one side and conservative 
 Hindutva is on the other. Most Muslims are on one side and the liberal Al 
 Fatiha Foundation and liberal Imaan groups are on the other.
 
 Wicca, Unitarian Universalism, Eckankar, LaVeyanism, Raëlism, Neo-Druidism, 
 and the Native American Religion are affirming religions. Though, not listed 
 by Wikipedia, I would add Thelema as well to the list due to my own research.
 
 Religious Humanists and Religious Existentialists tend to be affirming as 
 well.
 
 I compiled the lists from Wikipedia articles on affirming religions, 
 organizations that support same sex marriage, religious views on same sex 
 marriage, etc.
 
 It's ironic that the leeway for interpretation in scripture present in the 
 top five religions allows for flexibility in this matter that the Baha'i 
 Faith lacks. 
 
 While LGBTQQIA people and allies are part of the top five religions, they do 
 tend to be drawn to the next seven as well. I wonder what are the religious 
 demographics of these people. 
 
 Skygram, do you know what religions these ex-Baha'is convert to or to 
 irreligion? How are they doing today? Do you still keep in contact with 
 them? Was it all for the better now, if they managed to convert to an 
 affirming religion or denomination? 
 
 This is especially noted in how lots of Unitarian Universalist churches have 
 extensive affirming programs in congregations which are known as Welcoming 
 Churches.
 
 It is sad for the ones who stay Baha'is, but they apostates probably have 
 moved on with their lives for the better. 
 
 While I didn't come to my current religious affiliations because they were 
 affirming, but rather for other reasons. I choose Unitarian Universalism 
 because of the diversity of religious beliefs that can fit within that big 
 tent. Religious Humanism because I liked reading the Humanist Manifestoes, 
 but didn't care for Secular Humanism. Buddhist Humanism, Humanistic 
 Buddhism, Nichiren Buddhism, Buddhist Modernism, Engaged Buddhism, Buddhist 
 Protestantism, etc. because of my prior like of Religious Humanism and my 
 liking of Mahayana Buddhism.
 
 I was interested in Eckankar because of soul travel and various other 
 things. I was interested in Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism and hence 
 Neo-Druidism and Wicca. I was interested in various UFO religions including 
 Raëlism. 
 
 I like the Golden Rule which is in all religions. I like the page on 
 Wikipedia listing the various formulations across religions. Buddhism and 
 Humanism have my favorite formulations. I also like the Declaration of a 
 Global Ethic. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism have formulations I 
 read regularly as well via the Wikipedia page. Wicca and Thelema also have 
 formulations that I have memorized as well as read regularly via Wikipedia. 
 
 The Humanist Manifesto II
 
 In the best sense, religion may inspire dedication to the highest ethical 
 ideals. The cultivation of moral devotion and creative imagination is an 
 expression of genuine spiritual experience and aspiration. 
 
 We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or religions that place 
 revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a 
 disservice to the human species. 
 
 Whether the Baha'i Faith does a disservice to humanity is up to debate, or 
 not?
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 16, 2013, at 20:20, Skygram skyg...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Gary,
 
 You have prodded the sleeping elephant in the room!
 
 I recall many years ago there was a Bahai bumper sticker that read, Human
 Rights are God Given Rights. But now that sexual preference is considered a
 human right by many countries along with the United Nations, you don't see
 this bumper sticker any more.
 
 Over the

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
That presupposes enough people will have become Baha'i to make that feasible.

If a Baha'i society, one with a Baha'i majority, became a non Baha'i one, one 
with a different religious group in the majority, would the Baha'is step down 
from power?

Also, shouldn't it be before 1000 years have passed or 2892? Unless you count 
Mission of Maitreya, Eternal Divine Path or some other religion as being more 
recent, wouldn't there be even newer religions by then in 2892 or later?

Why is an all Baha'i world any more possible any amount of time in the future 
1000 - 100 year from now than an all Raëlian, all Scientologist, all Neo 
Gnostic, all Pagan, all Humanist, all Unitarian, all Muslim, all Ahmadi, all 
Adi Dam, or whatever else possibility?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 22, 2013, at 17:22, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 They will be a minor part of their responsibilities.  This is going to prob 
 be 1500 years from now.  Think the difference in civilization btwn Augustine 
 and now.
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 2:39 08PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 How will the punishments in the Aqdas get carried out if you that's true? If 
 no one is in charge how will people get executed, exiled, imprisioned, 
 fined, etc? 
 
 The Aqdas looks like it presupposes a kind of authoritarianism you reject. 
 Baha'i laws will be enforced because that's what it says. 
 
 
 -
 Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

 traditions will show the almost 
 infinite number of Faiths, Communities, Revelations, etc. that exist and are 
 extant, not to mention extinct and reconstructed ones. 
 
 Also, in the topic on post conventional morality, the topic was more on the 
 variety of new religious movements and their impacts on morality in society.
 
 Hasan, you seem to hold that religions and spiritual traditions are all 
 intrinsically higher than philosophies and thoughts. I have no opinion on 
 the matter, but am familiar with various religions like Raëlism, 
 Scientology, Neo Gnosticism, Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya aka Qadianism, Happy Science 
 aka Kofuku no Kagaku, Sahaja Yoga, Rastafarianism, etc. I'm not that 
 interested in them, but I know about them is the point.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_(contemporary)
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddha_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_avatar_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mahdi_claimants
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 27, 2013, at 15:32, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hi,
 
 I read few messages of Stephen Gray, I think he trusts so much on 
 philosophers and thinkers. I think Kohlberg and others are nothing and just 
 vanishes when compared to Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation. 
 
 The Guardian wrote:
 Firmness in the Covenant is their Fortress, their greatest protection, and 
 new Bahá'ís should be taught this before they are admitted into the 
 Community. In this way they will be given the spiritual strenght to 
 overcome the tests which are inevitable, and which strenghten the growth of 
 the Community and drive its roots deeper in the soil of faith.
 
 Best,
 
 Hasan
 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Miércoles, 24 de abril, 2013 8:10 P.
 Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Don C, read Eight Ways to Run the Country by Brian Patrick Mitchell. From, 
 this you sound like a populist which means nothing other than you side with 
 people, but is meaningless ideology wise.
 
 You rejection of progressivism and its ideals, tell me you aren't anti 
 archy and aren't pro kratos. This excludes you from being other anti archy 
 ideologies like radicalism and indivudalism. This also excludes you from 
 being other pro kratos ideologies like communitarianism and 
 neoconservatism. What's left? Paleolibertarianism? Paleoconservatism? 
 Theoconservatism? Populism? 
 
 Read the book and review what you think of each and every chapter!
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:21, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 i consider myself an independent centrist.  I don't fit neatly into any 
 category.  I am generally moderate, but have no compunction about adapting 
 workable ideas from a variety of perspectives.  What is most important, as 
 Baha'u'llah has indicated, are the principles.
 
 Think not that I have revealed a mere code of laws . . . . .
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:20 09PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both ie 
 archy and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or Paleoconservative.
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Don't you mean if not in?

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On Apr 22, 2013, at 17:26, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 2:11 28PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Baha'is say that people are supposed to use independent investigation of 
 truth to verify or falsify the claims of each and every religious claimant,
 
 I have never seen a statement like that in Baha'i Scripture.
 
 
 but hypocritically have the list of eight religions they acknowledge. 
 
 They say that we only need to know of religions and religious figure 
 specifically mentioned in scripture, but criticize people of other religions 
 for taking the exact same position.
 
 Well, we'll see in groups like Maitreya outlive their founder.
 
 Don C
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Actually, all Baha'i denominations and sects call themselves Baha'i and call 
each other covenant breakers, so it's really splitting hairs for any group to 
claim to have a Baha'i Studies list, but exclude all other groups. This is 
technically a list of the Baha'i Faith rather than one sect or denomination out 
of seven. It would be absurd to have Catholic refer to a Catholic Studies list 
as a Christian Studies list.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_divisions
http://www.sectsofbahais.com/

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On Apr 30, 2013, at 17:39, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Stephen,
 
 The name of this list is Bahá'í Studies. It seems that you do not realize 
 where you are. 
 
 The Bahá'í Faith has good presence in the Web, bahá'ís reside in almost every 
 country, so I guess one seeker would have the Bahá'í Faith as one of the 
 first choices to investigate.
 
 The cold mind is not enough to perceive the Sun of Revelation, spiritual 
 qualities and a mind without veils is needed.
 
 You ask:
 
 Why should Jews study the Baha'u'llah over all Jewish Messiah claimants?
 Why should Christians study Baha'u'llah over all return of Jesus, Paraclete, 
 Holy Spirit, etc. claimants?
 Why should Muslims study Baha'u'llah over all Mahdi claimants?
 Why should Bayanis study Baha'u'llah over all Manifestation claimants?
 Why should Hindus study Baha'u'llah over all Kalki claimants?
 Why should Buddhists study Baha'u'llah over all Maitreya claimants?
 
 This is ridiculous. You have tons of information about the Bahá'í Faith. So, 
 how is your investigation going?
 
 Hasan
 
 PS You quoted Covenant-breakers sources, I wonder why the moderator did not 
 you brought out of here.
 
 
 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Lunes, 29 de abril, 2013 7:25 P.M.
 Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I should explain closer and in more depth. Religions and their scriptures 
 predict Messiahs, Christs, Paracletes, Holy Spirits, Mahdis, Manifestations, 
 Avatars, Kalkis, Buddhas, Maitreyas, etc. 
 
 The Covenant requires investigations of all claimants. The Baha'i Faith 
 advertises it this way. Your scripture promises, insert term above here. 
 Baha'u'llah is a claimant to be, insert term above here. You should 
 investigate Baha'u'llah's claims because the Covenant requires you to. Also, 
 you should interpret prophecies symbolically to give leeway for claimants. 
 The same marketing technique can be used for all claimants and produce a yes 
 answer to them being who they claim to be. 
 
 Why should Jews study the Baha'u'llah over all Jewish Messiah claimants?
 Why should Christians study Baha'u'llah over all return of Jesus, Paraclete, 
 Holy Spirit, etc. claimants?
 Why should Muslims study Baha'u'llah over all Mahdi claimants?
 Why should Bayanis study Baha'u'llah over all Manifestation claimants?
 Why should Hindus study Baha'u'llah over all Kalki claimants?
 Why should Buddhists study Baha'u'llah over all Maitreya claimants?
 
 Side Note: Can one person be several of the above if not all? Can several 
 people if not all be the same things above?
 
 Adi Dam (Adi Da Love Ananda Samraj)
 Ahmadiyya Islam aka Qadianism (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad)
 Baha'i Faith (Baha'u'llah)
 Islam (Muhammad)
 Ismaili Islam aka Ismailism (Ali through Aga Khan IV, Shia Imams)
 Kalki, Mahdi, Messiah, etc. Foundation International (Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi)
 Mission of Maitreya, Eternal Divine Path (Joseph Emmanuel, Ahmad ibn Abdullah)
 Neo Gnosticism aka Universal Christian Gnostic Church (Samael Aun Weor)
 Raëlism (Claude Vorilhon aka Raël)
 Scientology (Lafayette Ronald Hubbard)
 
 What do all the above have in common? Either they themselves or followers on 
 their behalf have claimed their Kalki status and Maitreya status. Wikipedia 
 links to articles about what Kalki and Maitreya prophecies they fulfill and 
 how. For example, one I inadvertently ran across was the Maitreya boatsman 
 prophecy on the bodhisattva page of Wikipedia.  I have studied Scientology 
 since High School despite all the controversy surrounding it. I also started 
 studying Raëlism recently and have downloaded several e books from the Web. 
 Also, I mention the above because I only felt like listing the prophecies of 
 Indian Dharmic religions and not Abrahamic ones. I have also seen a paper on 
 the Baha'i Faith in India and read about debates between Ahmadis and Baha'is. 
 Explain why only Muhammad and Baha'u'llah mentioned above are Kalki and 
 Maitreya, while reffering only to Hindu and Buddhist texts.
 
 I for one haven't combed through the Puranas and Sutras for each and every 
 prophecy to compare each claimant to, but have seen various pages describing 
 how each and every claimant above fulfills them. 
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
 http://www.maitreya.org/
 
 Sent

Re: Against nature...

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Sent from my iPad

On Apr 30, 2013, at 17:28, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Don't you mean if not in?
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 17:26, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 2:11 28PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Baha'is say that people are supposed to use independent investigation of 
 truth to verify or falsify the claims of each and every religious claimant,
 
 I have never seen a statement like that in Baha'i Scripture.
 
 
 but hypocritically have the list of eight religions they acknowledge. 
 
 They say that we only need to know of religions and religious figure 
 specifically mentioned in scripture, but criticize people of other 
 religions for taking the exact same position.
 
 Well, we'll see in groups like Maitreya outlive their founder.
 
 Don C
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

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Sent from my iPad

On Apr 30, 2013, at 17:37, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 That presupposes enough people will have become Baha'i to make that feasible.
 
 If a Baha'i society, one with a Baha'i majority, became a non Baha'i one, one 
 with a different religious group in the majority, would the Baha'is step down 
 from power?
 
 Also, shouldn't it be before 1000 years have passed or 2892? Unless you count 
 Mission of Maitreya, Eternal Divine Path or some other religion as being more 
 recent, wouldn't there be even newer religions by then in 2892 or later?
 
 Why is an all Baha'i world any more possible any amount of time in the future 
 1000 - 100 year from now than an all Raëlian, all Scientologist, all Neo 
 Gnostic, all Pagan, all Humanist, all Unitarian, all Muslim, all Ahmadi, all 
 Adi Dam, or whatever else possibility?
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 17:22, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 They will be a minor part of their responsibilities.  This is going to prob 
 be 1500 years from now.  Think the difference in civilization btwn Augustine 
 and now.
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 2:39 08PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 How will the punishments in the Aqdas get carried out if you that's true? 
 If no one is in charge how will people get executed, exiled, imprisioned, 
 fined, etc? 
 
 The Aqdas looks like it presupposes a kind of authoritarianism you reject. 
 Baha'i laws will be enforced because that's what it says. 
 
 
 -
 Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

 
 On Apr 29, 2013, at 13:13, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hasan, any list of religions and spiritual traditions will show the almost 
 infinite number of Faiths, Communities, Revelations, etc. that exist and 
 are extant, not to mention extinct and reconstructed ones. 
 
 Also, in the topic on post conventional morality, the topic was more on the 
 variety of new religious movements and their impacts on morality in society.
 
 Hasan, you seem to hold that religions and spiritual traditions are all 
 intrinsically higher than philosophies and thoughts. I have no opinion on 
 the matter, but am familiar with various religions like Raëlism, 
 Scientology, Neo Gnosticism, Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya aka Qadianism, Happy 
 Science aka Kofuku no Kagaku, Sahaja Yoga, Rastafarianism, etc. I'm not 
 that interested in them, but I know about them is the point.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_(contemporary)
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddha_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_avatar_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mahdi_claimants
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 27, 2013, at 15:32, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hi,
 
 I read few messages of Stephen Gray, I think he trusts so much on 
 philosophers and thinkers. I think Kohlberg and others are nothing and 
 just vanishes when compared to Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation. 
 
 The Guardian wrote:
 Firmness in the Covenant is their Fortress, their greatest protection, 
 and new Bahá'ís should be taught this before they are admitted into the 
 Community. In this way they will be given the spiritual strenght to 
 overcome the tests which are inevitable, and which strenghten the growth 
 of the Community and drive its roots deeper in the soil of faith.
 
 Best,
 
 Hasan
 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Miércoles, 24 de abril, 2013 8:10 P.
 Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Don C, read Eight Ways to Run the Country by Brian Patrick Mitchell. From, 
 this you sound like a populist which means nothing other than you side 
 with people, but is meaningless ideology wise.
 
 You rejection of progressivism and its ideals, tell me you aren't anti 
 archy and aren't pro kratos. This excludes you from being other anti archy 
 ideologies like radicalism and indivudalism. This also excludes you from 
 being other pro kratos ideologies like communitarianism and 
 neoconservatism. What's left? Paleolibertarianism? Paleoconservatism? 
 Theoconservatism? Populism? 
 
 Read the book and review what you think of each and every chapter!
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:21, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 i consider myself an independent centrist.  I don't fit neatly into any 
 category.  I am generally moderate, but have no compunction about 
 adapting workable ideas from a variety of perspectives.  What is most 
 important, as Baha'u'llah has indicated, are the principles.
 
 Think not that I have revealed a mere code of laws . . . . .
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:20 09PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both 
 ie archy and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or Paleoconservative.
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Sent from my iPad

On Apr 30, 2013, at 20:45, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 I shouldn't have listed Neo-Druidism, Wicca, and Thelema separately. They are 
 all forms of Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism.
 
 Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism (includes various ethnic, folk, and 
 syncretic religions)
 Unitarian Universalism
 Eckankar
 LeVeyanism
 Raëlism
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements
 
 The mainstream of world religions can be divided into Abrahamic and Dharmic.
 
 Abrahamic
 Christianity
 Islam
 Judaimsm
 
 Dharmic
 Hinduism
 Buddhism
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 29, 2013, at 18:43, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Another message where I referenced Raëlism.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 19, 2013, at 23:35, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 There are a variety of religions in the world. While most either are 
 explicitly anti LGBTQQIA or neutral towards them, there are affirming 
 religious groups.
 
 Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism have affirming 
 factions. This is a specific denominational issue in Judaism and 
 Christianity. I could add Buddhism as well because of the Hinayana and 
 Mahayana divide on this issue. Most Hindus are on one side and conservative 
 Hindutva is on the other. Most Muslims are on one side and the liberal Al 
 Fatiha Foundation and liberal Imaan groups are on the other.
 
 Wicca, Unitarian Universalism, Eckankar, LaVeyanism, Raëlism, Neo-Druidism, 
 and the Native American Religion are affirming religions. Though, not 
 listed by Wikipedia, I would add Thelema as well to the list due to my own 
 research.
 
 Religious Humanists and Religious Existentialists tend to be affirming as 
 well.
 
 I compiled the lists from Wikipedia articles on affirming religions, 
 organizations that support same sex marriage, religious views on same sex 
 marriage, etc.
 
 It's ironic that the leeway for interpretation in scripture present in the 
 top five religions allows for flexibility in this matter that the Baha'i 
 Faith lacks. 
 
 While LGBTQQIA people and allies are part of the top five religions, they 
 do tend to be drawn to the next seven as well. I wonder what are the 
 religious demographics of these people. 
 
 Skygram, do you know what religions these ex-Baha'is convert to or to 
 irreligion? How are they doing today? Do you still keep in contact with 
 them? Was it all for the better now, if they managed to convert to an 
 affirming religion or denomination? 
 
 This is especially noted in how lots of Unitarian Universalist churches 
 have extensive affirming programs in congregations which are known as 
 Welcoming Churches.
 
 It is sad for the ones who stay Baha'is, but they apostates probably have 
 moved on with their lives for the better. 
 
 While I didn't come to my current religious affiliations because they were 
 affirming, but rather for other reasons. I choose Unitarian Universalism 
 because of the diversity of religious beliefs that can fit within that big 
 tent. Religious Humanism because I liked reading the Humanist Manifestoes, 
 but didn't care for Secular Humanism. Buddhist Humanism, Humanistic 
 Buddhism, Nichiren Buddhism, Buddhist Modernism, Engaged Buddhism, Buddhist 
 Protestantism, etc. because of my prior like of Religious Humanism and my 
 liking of Mahayana Buddhism.
 
 I was interested in Eckankar because of soul travel and various other 
 things. I was interested in Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism and hence 
 Neo-Druidism and Wicca. I was interested in various UFO religions including 
 Raëlism. 
 
 I like the Golden Rule which is in all religions. I like the page on 
 Wikipedia listing the various formulations across religions. Buddhism and 
 Humanism have my favorite formulations. I also like the Declaration of a 
 Global Ethic. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism have formulations 
 I read regularly as well via the Wikipedia page. Wicca and Thelema also 
 have formulations that I have memorized as well as read regularly via 
 Wikipedia. 
 
 The Humanist Manifesto II
 
 In the best sense, religion may inspire dedication to the highest ethical 
 ideals. The cultivation of moral devotion and creative imagination is an 
 expression of genuine spiritual experience and aspiration. 
 
 We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or religions that place 
 revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a 
 disservice to the human species. 
 
 Whether the Baha'i Faith does a disservice to humanity is up to debate, or 
 not?
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 16, 2013, at 20:20, Skygram skyg...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Gary,
 
 You have prodded the sleeping elephant in the room!
 
 I recall many years ago there was a Bahai bumper sticker that read, Human
 Rights are God Given Rights. But now that sexual preference is considered

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Sent from my iPad

On Apr 30, 2013, at 20:49, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 To copy and paste from a prior email.
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I generously bless people. It's what I do. Also, I'm trained in logic and can 
 notify people when they're using fallacies. Also, I'm an ex non dis enrolled, 
 which means I left without dis enrolling, so I still keep getting Baha'i 
 emails and mail. I did discover Unitarian Universalism, Humanism, and 
 Buddhism over the time afterwards. I also do study Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya, 
 Foundation International, I Kuan Tao aka Yi Guan Dao, Mission of Maitreya - 
 Eternal Divine Path, Neo Gnosticism, Raëlism, and Scientology as well 
 regularly.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:00, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 ...And yet you so often bless us with your comments. Why are we so blessed?
  
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Actually I only believe in Unitarian Universalism, Mahayana Nichiren 
 Buddhism, Religious Humanism, as my survey results if asked by a survey.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:04, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to study everything and commit to nothing. This can be a path to 
 insanity. I hope that is not your fate.
 On 04/18/2013 11:37 AM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New 
 Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, 
 Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and 
 Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal 
 Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM 
 University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, 
 Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various 
 Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements 
 are good examples to use. 
  remainder deleted 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 29, 2013, at 17:43, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Stephen,
 
 Are you a bahá'í?
 
 Hasan
 
 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Lunes, 29 de abril, 2013 1:13 P.M.
 Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hasan, any list of religions and spiritual traditions will show the almost 
 infinite number of Faiths, Communities, Revelations, etc. that exist and are 
 extant, not to mention extinct and reconstructed ones. 
 
 Also, in the topic on post conventional morality, the topic was more on the 
 variety of new religious movements and their impacts on morality in society.
 
 Hasan, you seem to hold that religions and spiritual traditions are all 
 intrinsically higher than philosophies and thoughts. I have no opinion on 
 the matter, but am familiar with various religions like Raëlism, 
 Scientology, Neo Gnosticism, Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya aka Qadianism, Happy Science 
 aka Kofuku no Kagaku, Sahaja Yoga, Rastafarianism, etc. I'm not that 
 interested in them, but I know about them is the point.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_(contemporary)
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddha_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_avatar_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mahdi_claimants
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 27, 2013, at 15:32, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hi,
 
 I read few messages of Stephen Gray, I think he trusts so much on 
 philosophers and thinkers. I think Kohlberg and others are nothing and just 
 vanishes when compared

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv


Sent from my iPad

On Apr 30, 2013, at 22:40, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Lots of interesting Raëlian sites, because I read them in the five Raëlian e 
 books I downloaded onto my iPad. Interesting side note, I have seen a 
 Theraveda Buddhist Facebook page attacking Raëlism and another Theraveda 
 Buddhist website attacking Scientology. While, not explicitly identifying 
 themselves as Theraveda, the authors of the web sites showed an ignorance of 
 Mahayana and Vajrayana forms of Buddhism. The above websites compared 
 Theraveda Buddhism to Raëlism and Scientology rather than Mahayana or 
 Vajrayana. Their arguments assume all Buddhism is Theraveda Buddhism. 
 
 Though, I personally think I-Kuan-Tao aka Yi-Guan-Dao, Raëlism, Scientology, 
 Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya aka Qadianism, Baha'i Faith, Mission of Maitreya - Eternal 
 Divine Path, Neo-Gnosticism, Islam, Ismailism, Foundation International, etc. 
 are all skillful means to lead sentient beings closer to enlightenment. They 
 are all useful to build a utopia and to benefit sentient beings in infinite 
 ways. Bodhisattvas teach infinite dharmas to help even one to infinite 
 sentient beings who practice them. The theory of said dharmas are the 
 skillful means and the practice of them is what is important. I wouldn't take 
 anything of the doctrinal and philosophical dimensions above to be skillful 
 means. While it is beneficial to practice based on belief in the above 
 doctrines and philosophies, it'd wouldn't be wise to mistake anything for 
 anything other than skillful means.
 
 http://www.apostasynow.org/
 http://www.clonaid.com/
 http://www.rael.org/
 http://www.rael-science.org/
 http://www.raelafrica.org/
 http://www.raelianews.org/
 http://www.raelradio.net/
 http://www.subversions.com/
 http://www.thereisnogod.info/
 http://www.ufoland.com/
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 29, 2013, at 18:43, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Another message where I referenced Raëlism.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 19, 2013, at 23:35, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 There are a variety of religions in the world. While most either are 
 explicitly anti LGBTQQIA or neutral towards them, there are affirming 
 religious groups.
 
 Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism have affirming 
 factions. This is a specific denominational issue in Judaism and 
 Christianity. I could add Buddhism as well because of the Hinayana and 
 Mahayana divide on this issue. Most Hindus are on one side and conservative 
 Hindutva is on the other. Most Muslims are on one side and the liberal Al 
 Fatiha Foundation and liberal Imaan groups are on the other.
 
 Wicca, Unitarian Universalism, Eckankar, LaVeyanism, Raëlism, Neo-Druidism, 
 and the Native American Religion are affirming religions. Though, not 
 listed by Wikipedia, I would add Thelema as well to the list due to my own 
 research.
 
 Religious Humanists and Religious Existentialists tend to be affirming as 
 well.
 
 I compiled the lists from Wikipedia articles on affirming religions, 
 organizations that support same sex marriage, religious views on same sex 
 marriage, etc.
 
 It's ironic that the leeway for interpretation in scripture present in the 
 top five religions allows for flexibility in this matter that the Baha'i 
 Faith lacks. 
 
 While LGBTQQIA people and allies are part of the top five religions, they 
 do tend to be drawn to the next seven as well. I wonder what are the 
 religious demographics of these people. 
 
 Skygram, do you know what religions these ex-Baha'is convert to or to 
 irreligion? How are they doing today? Do you still keep in contact with 
 them? Was it all for the better now, if they managed to convert to an 
 affirming religion or denomination? 
 
 This is especially noted in how lots of Unitarian Universalist churches 
 have extensive affirming programs in congregations which are known as 
 Welcoming Churches.
 
 It is sad for the ones who stay Baha'is, but they apostates probably have 
 moved on with their lives for the better. 
 
 While I didn't come to my current religious affiliations because they were 
 affirming, but rather for other reasons. I choose Unitarian Universalism 
 because of the diversity of religious beliefs that can fit within that big 
 tent. Religious Humanism because I liked reading the Humanist Manifestoes, 
 but didn't care for Secular Humanism. Buddhist Humanism, Humanistic 
 Buddhism, Nichiren Buddhism, Buddhist Modernism, Engaged Buddhism, Buddhist 
 Protestantism, etc. because of my prior like of Religious Humanism and my 
 liking of Mahayana Buddhism.
 
 I was interested in Eckankar because of soul travel and various other 
 things. I was interested in Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism and hence 
 Neo-Druidism and Wicca. I was interested in various UFO religions including 
 Raëlism. 
 
 I like the Golden Rule which

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
To copy and paste Juan Cole.

“John Ricardo I. Juan Cole (born October 1952) is an American scholar, public 
intellectual, and historian of the modern Middle East and South Asia. He is 
Richard P. Mitchell Collegiate Professor of History at the University of 
Michigan. As a commentator on Middle Eastern affairs, he has appeared in print 
and on television, and testified before the United States Senate.

Cole became a member of the Bahá'í Faith in 1972 as an undergraduate at 
Northwestern, and the religion later became a focus of his academic research. 
He resigned from the faith in 1996 after disputes with Bahá'í leadership 
concerning the Bahá'í system of administration.”

The Baha'i faith stands for universal love, for tolerance, and for a separation 
of religion and state.  The need for religious leaders to let politicians do 
the ruling is a key value stated over and over again in Baha'i scripture.

Unfortunately, a weird Baha'i sub-cult has arisen.  It structurally resembles 
al-Qaida, and differs from al-Qaida only with regard to methods, not ideals.  
It does not usually employ violence or terrorism (though persons with this 
mindset have beaten up friends of mind).

And, most frighteningly of all, it has taken over and subverted the main 
institutions of the Baha'i faith.

1) Al-Qaida believes in the destruction of secular, civil governments and 
replacing them with a fascist theocracy.

Baha'i theocrats believe in the destruction of secular, civil governments and 
replacing them with a fascist theocracy.  Ian Semple, a member of the Baha'i 
Universal House of Justice, has for decades cast scorn on civil governments and 
spoken of his dream of a future when Baha'i Institutions will rule in their 
stead.

One pilgrim wrote,

I recall being in Haifa in the '70s ('72 and '78) and hearing long talks about 
this from Ian Semple, on how the world was destined to be ruled by houses of 
justice and there will eventually be no distinction between church and state, 
with rather snide and smug comments about how at last the world will finally 
get it right and have God and Government fused through the power of the Baha'i 
covenant.

Note that this is the opposite of what `Abdu'l-Baha says in the Treatise on 
Leadership:

http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~bahai/trans/vol2/absiyasi.htm

Ian Semple also put out a letter from the Secretariat of the UHJ:

As for the statement made by Shoghi Effendi in his letter of 21 March 1932, 
the well-established principles of the Faith concerning the relationship of the 
Baha'i institutions to those of the country in which the Baha'is reside make it 
unthinkable that they would ever purpose to violate a country's constitution or 
so to meddle in its political machinery as to attempt to take over the powers 
of government. This is an integral element of the Baha'i principle of 
abstention from involvement in politics. However, this does not by any means 
imply that the country itself may not, by constitutional means, decide to adopt 
Baha'i laws and practices and modify its constitution or method of government 
accordingly.

In this passage he basically argues for a Nazi-like tactic of getting elected 
democratically and then abolishing democracy.  By the way, the Islamists (with 
al-Qaida links) tried this in Algeria, and the democrats and secularists fought 
back, embroiling the country in a civil war that has cost 100,000 lives.  This 
is the sort of conflict between theocratic Baha'is and the rest of society that 
Semple is urging on the world.  At that point would the Baha'i theocrats 
refrain from violence?

2)  Al-Qaida wishes to reestablish the Islamic Caliphate as the One World 
Government.
Baha'i theocrats substitute the House of Justice for the Caliphate and envision 
it ruling the world.

3) Al-Qaida despises parliamentary democracy as corrupt, money-driven and 
unrepresentative.  It wishes to overthrow parliaments and institute 
authoritarian religious rule instead.
Baha'i theocrats despise parliamentary democracy and wish to substitute their 
religious institutions, which are not freely elected, for civil government.  
Long-time Baha'i leader Firuz Kazemzadeh said in 1988:

If somebody is dissatisfied with a local assembly, he is not prevented from 
appealing to the NSA . . .  It is something else when whispering campaigns or 
petitions are sent around for signatures objecting to the activities of the 
institutions.  That also may be something which is countenanced by American 
democracy but has nothing to do with the Bahaullah and Baha’i Faith.  We must 
always remember that our institutions are an unusual and unique combination of 
theocracy in the best sense of the term with democracy.  The institutions of 
the Baha’i Faith have not been created by us, the institutions have
been created by God.

Actually, Kazemzadeh's version of the Baha'i institutions has been created by 
Kazemzadeh.

4) Al-Qaida establishes cells throughout the world

Re: Against nature...

. 
 Also, I mention the above because I only felt like listing the prophecies of 
 Indian Dharmic religions and not Abrahamic ones. I have also seen a paper on 
 the Baha'i Faith in India and read about debates between Ahmadis and 
 Baha'is. Explain why only Muhammad and Baha'u'llah mentioned above are Kalki 
 and Maitreya, while reffering only to Hindu and Buddhist texts.
 
 I for one haven't combed through the Puranas and Sutras for each and every 
 prophecy to compare each claimant to, but have seen various pages describing 
 how each and every claimant above fulfills them. 
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
 http://www.maitreya.org/
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 29, 2013, at 13:13, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hasan, any list of religions and spiritual traditions will show the almost 
 infinite number of Faiths, Communities, Revelations, etc. that exist and 
 are extant, not to mention extinct and reconstructed ones. 
 
 Also, in the topic on post conventional morality, the topic was more on the 
 variety of new religious movements and their impacts on morality in society.
 
 Hasan, you seem to hold that religions and spiritual traditions are all 
 intrinsically higher than philosophies and thoughts. I have no opinion on 
 the matter, but am familiar with various religions like Raëlism, 
 Scientology, Neo Gnosticism, Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya aka Qadianism, Happy 
 Science aka Kofuku no Kagaku, Sahaja Yoga, Rastafarianism, etc. I'm not 
 that interested in them, but I know about them is the point.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_(contemporary)
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddha_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_avatar_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mahdi_claimants
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 27, 2013, at 15:32, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hi,
 
 I read few messages of Stephen Gray, I think he trusts so much on 
 philosophers and thinkers. I think Kohlberg and others are nothing and 
 just vanishes when compared to Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation. 
 
 The Guardian wrote:
 Firmness in the Covenant is their Fortress, their greatest protection, 
 and new Bahá'ís should be taught this before they are admitted into the 
 Community. In this way they will be given the spiritual strenght to 
 overcome the tests which are inevitable, and which strenghten the growth 
 of the Community and drive its roots deeper in the soil of faith.
 
 Best,
 
 Hasan
 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Miércoles, 24 de abril, 2013 8:10 P.
 Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Don C, read Eight Ways to Run the Country by Brian Patrick Mitchell. From, 
 this you sound like a populist which means nothing other than you side 
 with people, but is meaningless ideology wise.
 
 You rejection of progressivism and its ideals, tell me you aren't anti 
 archy and aren't pro kratos. This excludes you from being other anti archy 
 ideologies like radicalism and indivudalism. This also excludes you from 
 being other pro kratos ideologies like communitarianism and 
 neoconservatism. What's left? Paleolibertarianism? Paleoconservatism? 
 Theoconservatism? Populism? 
 
 Read the book and review what you think of each and every chapter!
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:21, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 i consider myself an independent centrist.  I don't fit neatly into any 
 category.  I am generally moderate, but have no compunction about 
 adapting workable ideas from a variety of perspectives.  What is most 
 important, as Baha'u'llah has indicated, are the principles.
 
 Think not that I have revealed a mere code of laws . . . . .
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:20 09PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both 
 ie archy and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or Paleoconservative.
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

 Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Miércoles, 24 de abril, 2013 8:10 P.
 Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Don C, read Eight Ways to Run the Country by Brian Patrick Mitchell. 
 From, this you sound like a populist which means nothing other than you 
 side with people, but is meaningless ideology wise.
 
 You rejection of progressivism and its ideals, tell me you aren't anti 
 archy and aren't pro kratos. This excludes you from being other anti 
 archy ideologies like radicalism and indivudalism. This also excludes you 
 from being other pro kratos ideologies like communitarianism and 
 neoconservatism. What's left? Paleolibertarianism? Paleoconservatism? 
 Theoconservatism? Populism? 
 
 Read the book and review what you think of each and every chapter!
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:21, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 i consider myself an independent centrist.  I don't fit neatly into any 
 category.  I am generally moderate, but have no compunction about 
 adapting workable ideas from a variety of perspectives.  What is most 
 important, as Baha'u'llah has indicated, are the principles.
 
 Think not that I have revealed a mere code of laws . . . . .
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:20 09PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both 
 ie archy and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or 
 Paleoconservative.
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

 wrote:
 Firmness in the Covenant is their Fortress, their greatest protection, and 
 new Bahá'ís should be taught this before they are admitted into the 
 Community. In this way they will be given the spiritual strenght to overcome 
 the tests which are inevitable, and which strenghten the growth of the 
 Community and drive its roots deeper in the soil of faith.
 
 Best,
 
 Hasan
 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Miércoles, 24 de abril, 2013 8:10 P.
 Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Don C, read Eight Ways to Run the Country by Brian Patrick Mitchell. From, 
 this you sound like a populist which means nothing other than you side with 
 people, but is meaningless ideology wise.
 
 You rejection of progressivism and its ideals, tell me you aren't anti archy 
 and aren't pro kratos. This excludes you from being other anti archy 
 ideologies like radicalism and indivudalism. This also excludes you from 
 being other pro kratos ideologies like communitarianism and neoconservatism. 
 What's left? Paleolibertarianism? Paleoconservatism? Theoconservatism? 
 Populism? 
 
 Read the book and review what you think of each and every chapter!
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:21, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 i consider myself an independent centrist.  I don't fit neatly into any 
 category.  I am generally moderate, but have no compunction about adapting 
 workable ideas from a variety of perspectives.  What is most important, as 
 Baha'u'llah has indicated, are the principles.
 
 Think not that I have revealed a mere code of laws . . . . .
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:20 09PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both ie 
 archy and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or Paleoconservative.
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Another message where I referenced Raëlism.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 19, 2013, at 23:35, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 There are a variety of religions in the world. While most either are 
 explicitly anti LGBTQQIA or neutral towards them, there are affirming 
 religious groups.
 
 Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism have affirming factions. 
 This is a specific denominational issue in Judaism and Christianity. I could 
 add Buddhism as well because of the Hinayana and Mahayana divide on this 
 issue. Most Hindus are on one side and conservative Hindutva is on the other. 
 Most Muslims are on one side and the liberal Al Fatiha Foundation and liberal 
 Imaan groups are on the other.
 
 Wicca, Unitarian Universalism, Eckankar, LaVeyanism, Raëlism, Neo-Druidism, 
 and the Native American Religion are affirming religions. Though, not listed 
 by Wikipedia, I would add Thelema as well to the list due to my own research.
 
 Religious Humanists and Religious Existentialists tend to be affirming as 
 well.
 
 I compiled the lists from Wikipedia articles on affirming religions, 
 organizations that support same sex marriage, religious views on same sex 
 marriage, etc.
 
 It's ironic that the leeway for interpretation in scripture present in the 
 top five religions allows for flexibility in this matter that the Baha'i 
 Faith lacks. 
 
 While LGBTQQIA people and allies are part of the top five religions, they do 
 tend to be drawn to the next seven as well. I wonder what are the religious 
 demographics of these people. 
 
 Skygram, do you know what religions these ex-Baha'is convert to or to 
 irreligion? How are they doing today? Do you still keep in contact with them? 
 Was it all for the better now, if they managed to convert to an affirming 
 religion or denomination? 
 
 This is especially noted in how lots of Unitarian Universalist churches have 
 extensive affirming programs in congregations which are known as Welcoming 
 Churches.
 
 It is sad for the ones who stay Baha'is, but they apostates probably have 
 moved on with their lives for the better. 
 
 While I didn't come to my current religious affiliations because they were 
 affirming, but rather for other reasons. I choose Unitarian Universalism 
 because of the diversity of religious beliefs that can fit within that big 
 tent. Religious Humanism because I liked reading the Humanist Manifestoes, 
 but didn't care for Secular Humanism. Buddhist Humanism, Humanistic Buddhism, 
 Nichiren Buddhism, Buddhist Modernism, Engaged Buddhism, Buddhist 
 Protestantism, etc. because of my prior like of Religious Humanism and my 
 liking of Mahayana Buddhism.
 
 I was interested in Eckankar because of soul travel and various other things. 
 I was interested in Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism and hence Neo-Druidism 
 and Wicca. I was interested in various UFO religions including Raëlism. 
 
 I like the Golden Rule which is in all religions. I like the page on 
 Wikipedia listing the various formulations across religions. Buddhism and 
 Humanism have my favorite formulations. I also like the Declaration of a 
 Global Ethic. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism have formulations I 
 read regularly as well via the Wikipedia page. Wicca and Thelema also have 
 formulations that I have memorized as well as read regularly via Wikipedia. 
 
 The Humanist Manifesto II
 
 In the best sense, religion may inspire dedication to the highest ethical 
 ideals. The cultivation of moral devotion and creative imagination is an 
 expression of genuine spiritual experience and aspiration. 
 
 We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or religions that place 
 revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a 
 disservice to the human species. 
 
 Whether the Baha'i Faith does a disservice to humanity is up to debate, or 
 not?
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 16, 2013, at 20:20, Skygram skyg...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Gary,
 
 You have prodded the sleeping elephant in the room!
 
 I recall many years ago there was a Bahai bumper sticker that read, Human
 Rights are God Given Rights. But now that sexual preference is considered a
 human right by many countries along with the United Nations, you don't see
 this bumper sticker any more.
 
 Over the years having known a number of gay Bahais, both male and female,
 who have struggled with their issues of sexual identity, most have ended up
 leaving the Bahai Faith because in it they found no sense of spiritual
 refuge. Instead most encountered a lot of mean spirited behaviour of self
 righteous Bahais of which unfortunately, there are more than a few.
 
 Then there is another group of Bahais who marry into relationships with
 other gay Bahais of the opposite sex. They do this to pass as straight for
 various reasons and they also struggle with the inherent conflicts of being
 homosexual in

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I have no info on other states such as Northern Cyprus, Palestine, Somaliland, 
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, etc.

I'll also list the countries where there is no illegality for Muslims listed. 
Algeria, Comoros, Egypt, Morocco, Niger, Tunisia, Iraq, Turkey. Sahrawi Arab 
Democratic Republic is propbably the same as Morocco. No info on Somalia or 
Somaliland. 

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 20, 2013, at 20:05, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Susan, let's try this. On your next trip to Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Brunei, 
 Kuwait, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, etc. See if you can legally buy 
 and drink alcohol there. Then, try and search the black market for illegal 
 alcohol if you need to. While you don't have to actually drink the alcohol 
 once you get it, but you need to see which one of us is correct.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 15:24, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Here below is a Wikipedia excerpt.
 
 Note Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan, Brunei, Bangladesh, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, 
 Yemen, etc. are listed as completely illegal alcohol status rather than just 
 Saudi Arabia like you imply.
 
 Also note Iran and Pakistan are listed as almost completely illegal.
 
 Also note in Gabon, Gambia, Malaysia, Maldives, etc. alcohol is legal for 
 everyone except the Muslim minority.
 ethanol (ethyl alcohol, commonly referred to as simply alcohol, produced 
 through fermentation by yeast in alcoholic beverages such as wine and beer) 
 – legal but regulated in most parts of the world, and illegal in several 
 Muslim countries such as Pakistan, Libya, Sudan, Iran and Saudi Arabia; not 
 consumed by members of some religions. It acts as a GABAA receptor agonist. 
 In chemistry,alcohol can refer to more than ethyl alcohol. Methanol (methyl 
 alcohol, or wood alcohol) is poisonous.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_drug_use
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 15:10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I think only Indonesia is such a Muslim state. All other Muslim states
 impose Islamic law on all people there, regardless of their actual 
 religious
 beliefs. India is another state that has religious law that varies 
 depending
 upon the religion of the person. But for the most, theocratic states and
 religious states always impose one religions's laws on all people in their
 territory and citizenship regardless of their religious beliefs.
 
 Dear Stephen,
 I'm talking about the way in which Islamic states have operated
 historically, not how they might operate today. Check, for instance,
 the way the Ottoman Empire was organized.
 
 Your alcohol example is actually not the case. Muslim states are completely
 Prohibitionist.
 
 Wrong. Even wiki knows better than that. See for instance:
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Iran
 
 Now countries like Saudi Arabia prohibit alcohol to everyone but they
 are not exactly known for their religious tolerance. But countries
 like Turkey even produce beer. Alcohol is legal in Iraq as well.
 
 In Malaysia Chinese people, Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus are all
 allowed to drink alcohol. It is illegal only for Muslims. In Indonesia
 there are night clubs, restaurants, and pubs that serve alcohol. You
 can even bring a bottle of alcohol with  into the country legally. .
 But in certain rural areas it can get you caned.
 
 While you can drink alcohol there on the black market, it is
 still technically illegal. To clarify, Muslim states are completely
 Prohibitionist regardless of a person's religion.
 
 Sorry, Stephen but I have a PhD in Middle East and South East Asia
 which focuses on religious minorities in the Islamic context, whereas
 you get all your information from the internet. Which of us do you
 think knows what they are talking about?
 
 Susan
 
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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Also forgot to mention that Northern Cyprus is probably the same as Turkey.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 30, 2013, at 12:11, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I have no info on other states such as Northern Cyprus, Palestine, 
 Somaliland, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, etc.
 
 I'll also list the countries where there is no illegality for Muslims listed. 
 Algeria, Comoros, Egypt, Morocco, Niger, Tunisia, Iraq, Turkey. Sahrawi Arab 
 Democratic Republic is propbably the same as Morocco. No info on Somalia or 
 Somaliland. 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 20:05, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Susan, let's try this. On your next trip to Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Brunei, 
 Kuwait, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, etc. See if you can legally buy 
 and drink alcohol there. Then, try and search the black market for illegal 
 alcohol if you need to. While you don't have to actually drink the alcohol 
 once you get it, but you need to see which one of us is correct.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 15:24, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Here below is a Wikipedia excerpt.
 
 Note Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan, Brunei, Bangladesh, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, 
 Yemen, etc. are listed as completely illegal alcohol status rather than 
 just Saudi Arabia like you imply.
 
 Also note Iran and Pakistan are listed as almost completely illegal.
 
 Also note in Gabon, Gambia, Malaysia, Maldives, etc. alcohol is legal for 
 everyone except the Muslim minority.
 ethanol (ethyl alcohol, commonly referred to as simply alcohol, produced 
 through fermentation by yeast in alcoholic beverages such as wine and beer) 
 – legal but regulated in most parts of the world, and illegal in several 
 Muslim countries such as Pakistan, Libya, Sudan, Iran and Saudi Arabia; not 
 consumed by members of some religions. It acts as a GABAA receptor agonist. 
 In chemistry,alcohol can refer to more than ethyl alcohol. Methanol (methyl 
 alcohol, or wood alcohol) is poisonous.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_drug_use
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 15:10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I think only Indonesia is such a Muslim state. All other Muslim states
 impose Islamic law on all people there, regardless of their actual 
 religious
 beliefs. India is another state that has religious law that varies 
 depending
 upon the religion of the person. But for the most, theocratic states and
 religious states always impose one religions's laws on all people in their
 territory and citizenship regardless of their religious beliefs.
 
 Dear Stephen,
 I'm talking about the way in which Islamic states have operated
 historically, not how they might operate today. Check, for instance,
 the way the Ottoman Empire was organized.
 
 Your alcohol example is actually not the case. Muslim states are 
 completely
 Prohibitionist.
 
 Wrong. Even wiki knows better than that. See for instance:
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Iran
 
 Now countries like Saudi Arabia prohibit alcohol to everyone but they
 are not exactly known for their religious tolerance. But countries
 like Turkey even produce beer. Alcohol is legal in Iraq as well.
 
 In Malaysia Chinese people, Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus are all
 allowed to drink alcohol. It is illegal only for Muslims. In Indonesia
 there are night clubs, restaurants, and pubs that serve alcohol. You
 can even bring a bottle of alcohol with  into the country legally. .
 But in certain rural areas it can get you caned.
 
 While you can drink alcohol there on the black market, it is
 still technically illegal. To clarify, Muslim states are completely
 Prohibitionist regardless of a person's religion.
 
 Sorry, Stephen but I have a PhD in Middle East and South East Asia
 which focuses on religious minorities in the Islamic context, whereas
 you get all your information from the internet. Which of us do you
 think knows what they are talking about?
 
 Susan
 
 __
 You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com
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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-30 Thread Hasan Elías

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Stephen,

The name of this list is Bahá'í Studies. It seems that you do not realize 
where you are. 

The Bahá'í Faith has good presence in the Web, bahá'ís reside in almost every 
country, so I guess one seeker would have the Bahá'í Faith as one of the first 
choices to investigate.

The cold mind is not enough to perceive the Sun of Revelation, spiritual 
qualities and a mind without veils is needed.

You ask:

Why should Jews study the Baha'u'llah over all Jewish Messiah claimants?
Why should Christians study Baha'u'llah over all return of Jesus, Paraclete, 
Holy Spirit, etc. claimants?
Why should Muslims study Baha'u'llah over all Mahdi claimants?
Why should Bayanis study Baha'u'llah over all Manifestation claimants?
Why should Hindus study Baha'u'llah over all Kalki claimants?
Why should Buddhists study Baha'u'llah over all Maitreya claimants?

This is ridiculous. You have tons of information about the Bahá'í Faith. So, 
how is your investigation going?

Hasan

PS You quoted Covenant-breakers sources, I wonder why the moderator did not you 
brought out of here.




 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
Enviado: Lunes, 29 de abril, 2013 7:25 P.M.
Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 


 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I should explain closer and in more depth. Religions and their scriptures 
predict Messiahs, Christs, Paracletes, Holy Spirits, Mahdis, Manifestations, 
Avatars, Kalkis, Buddhas, Maitreyas, etc. 

The Covenant requires investigations of all claimants. The Baha'i Faith 
advertises it this way. Your scripture promises, insert term above here. 
Baha'u'llah is a claimant to be, insert term above here. You should investigate 
Baha'u'llah's claims because the Covenant requires you to. Also, you should 
interpret prophecies symbolically to give leeway for claimants. The same 
marketing technique can be used for all claimants and produce a yes answer to 
them being who they claim to be. 

Why should Jews study the Baha'u'llah over all Jewish Messiah claimants?
Why should Christians study Baha'u'llah over all return of Jesus, Paraclete, 
Holy Spirit, etc. claimants?
Why should Muslims study Baha'u'llah over all Mahdi claimants?
Why should Bayanis study Baha'u'llah over all Manifestation claimants?
Why should Hindus study Baha'u'llah over all Kalki claimants?
Why should Buddhists study Baha'u'llah over all Maitreya claimants?

Side Note: Can one person be several of the above if not all? Can several 
people if not all be the same things above?

Adi Dam (Adi Da Love Ananda Samraj)
Ahmadiyya Islam aka Qadianism (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad)
Baha'i Faith (Baha'u'llah)
Islam (Muhammad)
Ismaili Islam aka Ismailism (Ali through Aga Khan IV, Shia Imams)
Kalki, Mahdi, Messiah, etc. Foundation International (Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi)
Mission of Maitreya, Eternal Divine Path (Joseph Emmanuel, Ahmad ibn Abdullah)
Neo Gnosticism aka Universal Christian Gnostic Church (Samael Aun Weor)
Raëlism (Claude Vorilhon aka Raël)
Scientology (Lafayette Ronald Hubbard)

What do all the above have in common? Either they themselves or followers on 
their behalf have claimed their Kalki status and Maitreya status. Wikipedia 
links to articles about what Kalki and Maitreya prophecies they fulfill and 
how. For example, one I inadvertently ran across was the Maitreya boatsman 
prophecy on the bodhisattva page of Wikipedia.  I have studied Scientology 
since High School despite all the controversy surrounding it. I also started 
studying Raëlism recently and have downloaded several e books from the Web. 
Also, I mention the above because I only felt like listing the prophecies of 
Indian Dharmic religions and not Abrahamic ones. I have also seen a paper on 
the Baha'i Faith in India and read about debates between Ahmadis and Baha'is. 
Explain why only Muhammad and Baha'u'llah mentioned above are Kalki and 
Maitreya, while reffering only to Hindu and Buddhist texts.

I for one haven't combed through the Puranas and Sutras for each and every 
prophecy to compare each claimant to, but have seen various pages describing 
how each and every claimant above fulfills them. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
http://www.maitreya.org/

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 29, 2013, at 13:13, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:


 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hasan, any list of religions and spiritual traditions will show the almost 
infinite number of Faiths, Communities, Revelations, etc. that exist and are 
extant, not to mention extinct and reconstructed ones. 


Also, in the topic on post conventional morality, the topic was more on the 
variety of new religious movements and their impacts on morality in society.


Hasan, you seem to hold that religions and spiritual traditions are all 
intrinsically higher than philosophies and thoughts. I have no opinion on the 
matter, but am familiar with various religions

Re: Against nature...

2013-04-30 Thread Gary Selchert

The Baha'i Studies Listserv

Hasan, Susan has told the gentleman that he is no longer welcome here. He is 
however not a person to worry about whether he is welcome somewhere. His 
concern is not to discuss so much as it is his craving to demonstrate how many 
wikipedia sites he has visited and how many factoids he has memorized. How does 
that quote go? Leave them to amuse themselves with their vain discourse. 

Susan has also asked the rest of us to stop replying to his posts.

Peace,
Gary


-Original Message-
From: Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Tue, Apr 30, 2013 3:40 pm
Subject: Re: Against nature...





The Baha'i Studies Listserv



Stephen,


The name of this list is Bahá'í Studies. It seems that you do not realize 
where you are. 


The Bahá'í Faith has good presence in the Web, bahá'ís reside in almost every 
country, so I guess one seeker would have the Bahá'í Faith as one of the first 
choices to investigate.


The cold mind is not enough to perceive the Sun of Revelation, spiritual 
qualities and a mind without veils is needed.


You ask:


Why should Jews study the Baha'u'llah over all Jewish Messiah claimants?
Why should Christians study Baha'u'llah over all return of Jesus, Paraclete, 
Holy Spirit, etc. claimants?
Why should Muslims study Baha'u'llah over all Mahdi claimants?
Why should Bayanis study Baha'u'llah over all Manifestation claimants?
Why should Hindus study Baha'u'llah over all Kalki claimants?
Why should Buddhists study Baha'u'llah over all Maitreya claimants?


This is ridiculous. You have tons of information about the Bahá'í Faith. So, 
how is your investigation going?


Hasan


PS You quoted Covenant-breakers sources, I wonder why the moderator did not you 
brought out of here.






  
 
 
 
   De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Lunes, 29 de abril, 2013 7:25 P.M.
 Asunto: Re: Against nature...
  
 





The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I should explain closer and in more depth. Religions and their scriptures 
predict Messiahs, Christs, Paracletes, Holy Spirits, Mahdis, Manifestations, 
Avatars, Kalkis, Buddhas, Maitreyas, etc. 


The Covenant requires investigations of all claimants. The Baha'i Faith 
advertises it this way. Your scripture promises, insert term above here. 
Baha'u'llah is a claimant to be, insert term above here. You should investigate 
Baha'u'llah's claims because the Covenant requires you to. Also, you should 
interpret prophecies symbolically to give leeway for claimants. The same 
marketing technique can be used for all claimants and produce a yes answer to 
them being who they claim to be. 


Why should Jews study the Baha'u'llah over all Jewish Messiah claimants?
Why should Christians study Baha'u'llah over all return of Jesus, Paraclete, 
Holy Spirit, etc. claimants?
Why should Muslims study Baha'u'llah over all Mahdi claimants?
Why should Bayanis study Baha'u'llah over all Manifestation claimants?
Why should Hindus study Baha'u'llah over all Kalki claimants?
Why should Buddhists study Baha'u'llah over all Maitreya claimants?


Side Note: Can one person be several of the above if not all? Can several 
people if not all be the same things above?


Adi Dam (Adi Da Love Ananda Samraj)
Ahmadiyya Islam aka Qadianism (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad)
Baha'i Faith (Baha'u'llah)
Islam (Muhammad)
Ismaili Islam aka Ismailism (Ali through Aga Khan IV, Shia Imams)
Kalki, Mahdi, Messiah, etc. Foundation International (Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi)
Mission of Maitreya, Eternal Divine Path (Joseph Emmanuel, Ahmad ibn Abdullah)
Neo Gnosticism aka Universal Christian Gnostic Church (Samael Aun Weor)
Raëlism (Claude Vorilhon aka Raël)
Scientology (Lafayette Ronald Hubbard)


What do all the above have in common? Either they themselves or followers on 
their behalf have claimed their Kalki status and Maitreya status. Wikipedia 
links to articles about what Kalki and Maitreya prophecies they fulfill and 
how. For example, one I inadvertently ran across was the Maitreya boatsman 
prophecy on the bodhisattva page of Wikipedia.  I have studied Scientology 
since High School despite all the controversy surrounding it. I also started 
studying Raëlism recently and have downloaded several e books from the Web. 
Also, I mention the above because I only felt like listing the prophecies of 
Indian Dharmic religions and not Abrahamic ones. I have also seen a paper on 
the Baha'i Faith in India and read about debates between Ahmadis and Baha'is. 
Explain why only Muhammad and Baha'u'llah mentioned above are Kalki and 
Maitreya, while reffering only to Hindu and Buddhist texts.


I for one haven't combed through the Puranas and Sutras for each and every 
prophecy to compare each claimant to, but have seen various pages describing 
how each and every claimant above fulfills them. 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
http://en.wikipedia.org

Re: Against nature...

2013-04-29 Thread Stephen Kent Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
It's what Wikipedia says here.

Greater covenant

The greater covenant refers to the covenant made between each messenger from 
God, which the literature of the Bahá'í Faith name Manifestations of God, and 
his followers regarding the coming of the next Manifestation from God.[1] 
According to Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, God has promised 
that he will send a succession of messengers that will instruct humankind.[2] 
In Bahá'í belief, this covenant is seen to be expressed in prophecy in the 
religious scripture of each religion, and each Manifestation of God, such as 
Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, prophesied the next 
Manifestation.[1] In return, the followers of each religion are seen to have a 
duty to investigate the claims of the following Manifestations.[1]
Bahá'u'lláh taught that people have a two-fold obligation that they need to 
meet in response to God's promise to continually send messengers.[2] The two 
obligations are to recognize and accept the new Manifestation when he comes, 
and secondly to obey and put into practice the teachings which they bring; 
Bahá'u'lláh has stated that neither of these obligations is acceptable without 
the other.[2] He wrote:
The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who 
is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who 
representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of 
creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good... It behoveth 
every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent 
glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These 
twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other They 
whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize that the precepts laid 
down by God constitute the highest means for the maintenance of order in the 
world and the security of its! peoples Hasten to drink your fill, O men of 
understanding They that have violated the Covenant of God by breaking His 
commandments, and have turned back on their heels, these have erred grievously 
in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High.[12]
and:
Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath 
also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God 
from all eternity to all eternity.[13]

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 22, 2013, at 17:26, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 2:11 28PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Baha'is say that people are supposed to use independent investigation of 
 truth to verify or falsify the claims of each and every religious claimant,
 
 I have never seen a statement like that in Baha'i Scripture.
 
 
 but hypocritically have the list of eight religions they acknowledge. 
 
 They say that we only need to know of religions and religious figure 
 specifically mentioned in scripture, but criticize people of other religions 
 for taking the exact same position.
 
 Well, we'll see in groups like Maitreya outlive their founder.
 
 Don C
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-29 Thread Stephen Kent Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Yes, Don C, the onus of independent investigation requires everyone to 
investigate the claims of every Messiah, Christ, Paraclete, Holy Spirit, Mahdi, 
Manifestation, Avatar, Buddha, etc.

To repeat

The greater covenant refers to the covenant made between each messenger from 
God, which the literature of the Bahá'í Faith name Manifestations of God, and 
his followers regarding the coming of the next Manifestation from God.[1] 
According to Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, God has promised 
that he will send a succession of messengers that will instruct humankind.[2] 
In Bahá'í belief, this covenant is seen to be expressed in prophecy in the 
religious scripture of each religion, and each Manifestation of God, such as 
Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, prophesied the next 
Manifestation.[1] In return, the followers of each religion are seen to have a 
duty to investigate the claims of the following Manifestations.[1]
Sent from my iPad

On Apr 29, 2013, at 11:46, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 It's what Wikipedia says here.
 
 Greater covenant
 
 The greater covenant refers to the covenant made between each messenger from 
 God, which the literature of the Bahá'í Faith name Manifestations of God, and 
 his followers regarding the coming of the next Manifestation from God.[1] 
 According to Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, God has promised 
 that he will send a succession of messengers that will instruct humankind.[2] 
 In Bahá'í belief, this covenant is seen to be expressed in prophecy in the 
 religious scripture of each religion, and each Manifestation of God, such as 
 Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb, and Bahá'u'lláh, prophesied the 
 next Manifestation.[1] In return, the followers of each religion are seen to 
 have a duty to investigate the claims of the following Manifestations.[1]
 Bahá'u'lláh taught that people have a two-fold obligation that they need to 
 meet in response to God's promise to continually send messengers.[2] The two 
 obligations are to recognize and accept the new Manifestation when he comes, 
 and secondly to obey and put into practice the teachings which they bring; 
 Bahá'u'lláh has stated that neither of these obligations is acceptable 
 without the other.[2] He wrote:
 The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him 
 Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who 
 representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of 
 creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good... It 
 behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of 
 transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of 
 the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without 
 the other They whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize 
 that the precepts laid down by God constitute the highest means for the 
 maintenance of order in the world and the security of its! peoples Hasten 
 to drink your fill, O men of understanding They that have violated the 
 Covenant of God by breaking His commandments, and have turned back on their 
 heels, these have erred grievously in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, 
 the Most High.[12]
 and:
 Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty 
 hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride 
 towards God from all eternity to all eternity.[13]
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 17:26, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 2:11 28PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Baha'is say that people are supposed to use independent investigation of 
 truth to verify or falsify the claims of each and every religious claimant,
 
 I have never seen a statement like that in Baha'i Scripture.
 
 
 but hypocritically have the list of eight religions they acknowledge. 
 
 They say that we only need to know of religions and religious figure 
 specifically mentioned in scripture, but criticize people of other 
 religions for taking the exact same position.
 
 Well, we'll see in groups like Maitreya outlive their founder.
 
 Don C
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 
 

__
You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com
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Old

Re: Against nature...

2013-04-29 Thread Stephen Kent Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hasan, any list of religions and spiritual traditions will show the almost 
infinite number of Faiths, Communities, Revelations, etc. that exist and are 
extant, not to mention extinct and reconstructed ones. 

Also, in the topic on post conventional morality, the topic was more on the 
variety of new religious movements and their impacts on morality in society.

Hasan, you seem to hold that religions and spiritual traditions are all 
intrinsically higher than philosophies and thoughts. I have no opinion on the 
matter, but am familiar with various religions like Raëlism, Scientology, Neo 
Gnosticism, Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya aka Qadianism, Happy Science aka Kofuku no 
Kagaku, Sahaja Yoga, Rastafarianism, etc. I'm not that interested in them, but 
I know about them is the point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_(contemporary)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddha_claimants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_avatar_claimants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mahdi_claimants

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 27, 2013, at 15:32, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hi,
 
 I read few messages of Stephen Gray, I think he trusts so much on 
 philosophers and thinkers. I think Kohlberg and others are nothing and just 
 vanishes when compared to Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation. 
 
 The Guardian wrote:
 Firmness in the Covenant is their Fortress, their greatest protection, and 
 new Bahá'ís should be taught this before they are admitted into the 
 Community. In this way they will be given the spiritual strenght to overcome 
 the tests which are inevitable, and which strenghten the growth of the 
 Community and drive its roots deeper in the soil of faith.
 
 Best,
 
 Hasan
 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Miércoles, 24 de abril, 2013 8:10 P.
 Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Don C, read Eight Ways to Run the Country by Brian Patrick Mitchell. From, 
 this you sound like a populist which means nothing other than you side with 
 people, but is meaningless ideology wise.
 
 You rejection of progressivism and its ideals, tell me you aren't anti archy 
 and aren't pro kratos. This excludes you from being other anti archy 
 ideologies like radicalism and indivudalism. This also excludes you from 
 being other pro kratos ideologies like communitarianism and neoconservatism. 
 What's left? Paleolibertarianism? Paleoconservatism? Theoconservatism? 
 Populism? 
 
 Read the book and review what you think of each and every chapter!
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:21, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 i consider myself an independent centrist.  I don't fit neatly into any 
 category.  I am generally moderate, but have no compunction about adapting 
 workable ideas from a variety of perspectives.  What is most important, as 
 Baha'u'llah has indicated, are the principles.
 
 Think not that I have revealed a mere code of laws . . . . .
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:20 09PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both ie 
 archy and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or Paleoconservative.
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 

__
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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-29 Thread Hasan Elías

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Stephen,

Are you a bahá'í?

Hasan



 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
Enviado: Lunes, 29 de abril, 2013 1:13 P.M.
Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 


 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hasan, any list of religions and spiritual traditions will show the almost 
infinite number of Faiths, Communities, Revelations, etc. that exist and are 
extant, not to mention extinct and reconstructed ones. 

Also, in the topic on post conventional morality, the topic was more on the 
variety of new religious movements and their impacts on morality in society.

Hasan, you seem to hold that religions and spiritual traditions are all 
intrinsically higher than philosophies and thoughts. I have no opinion on the 
matter, but am familiar with various religions like Raëlism, Scientology, Neo 
Gnosticism, Adi Dam, Ahmadiyya aka Qadianism, Happy Science aka Kofuku no 
Kagaku, Sahaja Yoga, Rastafarianism, etc. I'm not that interested in them, but 
I know about them is the point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_religious_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Neopagan_movements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism_(contemporary)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_religions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Buddha_claimants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_avatar_claimants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mahdi_claimants

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 27, 2013, at 15:32, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:


 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi,


I read few messages of Stephen Gray, I think he trusts so much on philosophers 
and thinkers. I think Kohlberg and others are nothing and just vanishes when 
compared to Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation. 


The Guardian wrote:
Firmness in the Covenant is their Fortress, their greatest protection, and 
new Bahá'ís should be taught this before they are admitted into the Community. 
In this way they will be given the spiritual strenght to overcome the tests 
which are inevitable, and which strenghten the growth of the Community and 
drive its roots deeper in the soil of faith.


Best,


Hasan


 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
Enviado: Miércoles, 24 de abril, 2013 8:10 P.
Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 


 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Don C, read Eight Ways to Run the Country by Brian Patrick Mitchell. From, 
this you sound like a populist which means nothing other than you side with 
people, but is meaningless ideology wise.


You rejection of progressivism and its ideals, tell me you aren't anti archy 
and aren't pro kratos. This excludes you from being other anti archy 
ideologies like radicalism and indivudalism. This also excludes you from being 
other pro kratos ideologies like communitarianism and neoconservatism. What's 
left? Paleolibertarianism? Paleoconservatism? Theoconservatism? Populism? 


Read the book and review what you think of each and every chapter!

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:21, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:


 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
i consider myself an independent centrist.  I don't fit neatly into any 
category.  I am generally moderate, but have no compunction about adapting 
workable ideas from a variety of perspectives.  What is most important, as 
Baha'u'llah has indicated, are the principles.


Think not that I have revealed a mere code of laws . . . . .


Don C


On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:20 09PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both ie 
archy and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or Paleoconservative.




He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.






__
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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-27 Thread Hasan Elías

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Hi,

I read few messages of Stephen Gray, I think he trusts so much on philosophers 
and thinkers. I think Kohlberg and others are nothing and just vanishes when 
compared to Bahá'u'lláh's Revelation. 

The Guardian wrote:
Firmness in the Covenant is their Fortress, their greatest protection, and new 
Bahá'ís should be taught this before they are admitted into the Community. In 
this way they will be given the spiritual strenght to overcome the tests which 
are inevitable, and which strenghten the growth of the Community and drive its 
roots deeper in the soil of faith.

Best,

Hasan



 De: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
Enviado: Miércoles, 24 de abril, 2013 8:10 P.M.
Asunto: Re: Against nature...
 


 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Don C, read Eight Ways to Run the Country by Brian Patrick Mitchell. From, this 
you sound like a populist which means nothing other than you side with people, 
but is meaningless ideology wise.

You rejection of progressivism and its ideals, tell me you aren't anti archy 
and aren't pro kratos. This excludes you from being other anti archy ideologies 
like radicalism and indivudalism. This also excludes you from being other pro 
kratos ideologies like communitarianism and neoconservatism. What's left? 
Paleolibertarianism? Paleoconservatism? Theoconservatism? Populism? 

Read the book and review what you think of each and every chapter!

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:21, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:


 
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
i consider myself an independent centrist.  I don't fit neatly into any 
category.  I am generally moderate, but have no compunction about adapting 
workable ideas from a variety of perspectives.  What is most important, as 
Baha'u'llah has indicated, are the principles.


Think not that I have revealed a mere code of laws . . . . .


Don C


On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:20 09PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both ie 
archy and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or Paleoconservative.




He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.




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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-25 Thread Stephen Kent Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Don C, read Eight Ways to Run the Country by Brian Patrick Mitchell. From, this 
you sound like a populist which means nothing other than you side with people, 
but is meaningless ideology wise.

You rejection of progressivism and its ideals, tell me you aren't anti archy 
and aren't pro kratos. This excludes you from being other anti archy ideologies 
like radicalism and indivudalism. This also excludes you from being other pro 
kratos ideologies like communitarianism and neoconservatism. What's left? 
Paleolibertarianism? Paleoconservatism? Theoconservatism? Populism? 

Read the book and review what you think of each and every chapter!

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:21, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 i consider myself an independent centrist.  I don't fit neatly into any 
 category.  I am generally moderate, but have no compunction about adapting 
 workable ideas from a variety of perspectives.  What is most important, as 
 Baha'u'llah has indicated, are the principles.
 
 Think not that I have revealed a mere code of laws . . . . .
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:20 09PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both ie 
 archy and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or Paleoconservative.
 
 
 
 He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-24 Thread Stephen Kent Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Liberal religion is a religious tradition which embraces the theological 
diversity of a congregation rather than a single creed, authority, or writing. 
Because it may draw resources from many traditions, it cannot normally be 
characterized as Christian, Jewish, or any particular religious faith.
Theologian James Luther Adams defined the five smooth stones of liberalism as:
Revelation and truth are not closed, but constantly revealed.
All relations between persons ought ideally to rest on mutual, free consent and 
not coercion.
Affirmation of the moral obligation to direct one's effort toward the 
establishment of a just and loving community.
Denial of the immaculate conception of virtue and affirmation of the necessity 
of social incarnation. Good must be consciously given form and power within 
history.
The resources (divine and human) that are available for achievement of 
meaningful change justify an attitude of ultimate (but not necessarily 
immediate) optimism. There is hope in the ultimate abundance of the Universe.[1]
A religious liberal has been defined as
To be a liberal according to my favorite scripture, Merriam-Webster, is be 
open minded, is to be free from the constraints of dogmatism and authority, is 
to be generous and to believe in the basic goodness of humankind. Religion is 
defined as that which binds us back or reconnects us to that which is 
ultimately important. Thus religious liberals are those that are connected, 
through generosity and openness, to the most important aspects of life. And 
therein lies the challenge. If we are open minded and not bound by authority, 
who or what decides those matters of ultimate importance?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:12, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 if you think liberal means No drugs, no booze, no hanky-panky then I guess 
 we're quite liberal.
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:54 11PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Why isn't the Baha'i Faith a liberal religion?
 
 
 -
 Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-24 Thread Don Calkins

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
You seem to be intent on categorizing the Faith.  It's not going to work.

Why is the Faith referred to as a liberal or progressive group?  Because 
when Abdu'l-Baha was here 100 years ago and emphasized what are now commonly 
referred to as the Baha'i Principles (all 12 or 15 or however many), most of 
them were the ideas espoused by secular liberals.  

The assumption was made that the Faith adapted/adopted these ideas from the 
liberal elements of society around them. This led to a further assumption that 
as these ideas evolved and new ideas adopted by liberal and progressive 
thinkers, that the Faith would likewise adopt them also.  

There is an element of commonality that is little discussed among Baha'is which 
it has in common w/ many liberals - the resolution of the old debate between 
absolutism and relativism.  The Faith is more openly relativistic than many 
religious groups, but it must be remembered that there are certain laws and 
principles that can not be abrogated before the advent of the next 
Manifestation.  How these laws and principles are implemented can vary greatly, 
thus giving an air of relativism, but the principles themselves are sacrosanct, 
absolute.

Don C

On Apr 24, 2013, at 12:06 01PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

 Liberal religion is a religious tradition which embraces the theological 
 diversity of a congregation rather than a single creed, authority, or 
 writing. Because it may draw resources from many traditions, it cannot 
 normally be characterized as Christian, Jewish, or any particular religious 
 faith.
 


---
It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside.





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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-24 Thread Stephen Kent Gray

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I would rather like you to use liberal and progressive interchangeably. All 
progressives are liberal, but not all liberals are progressives. Progressive is 
a subset of liberal, not equivalent with liberal. Conservatives, libertarians, 
and social democrats are liberals as well, not just progressives.

I only used the word liberal, because Wikipedia uses liberal in the widest 
sense, not just as a code word for progressive. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalist_Association

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 24, 2013, at 14:16, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to be intent on categorizing the Faith.  It's not going to work.
 
 Why is the Faith referred to as a liberal or progressive group?  Because 
 when Abdu'l-Baha was here 100 years ago and emphasized what are now commonly 
 referred to as the Baha'i Principles (all 12 or 15 or however many), most of 
 them were the ideas espoused by secular liberals.  
 
 The assumption was made that the Faith adapted/adopted these ideas from the 
 liberal elements of society around them. This led to a further assumption 
 that as these ideas evolved and new ideas adopted by liberal and progressive 
 thinkers, that the Faith would likewise adopt them also.  
 
 There is an element of commonality that is little discussed among Baha'is 
 which it has in common w/ many liberals - the resolution of the old debate 
 between absolutism and relativism.  The Faith is more openly relativistic 
 than many religious groups, but it must be remembered that there are certain 
 laws and principles that can not be abrogated before the advent of the next 
 Manifestation.  How these laws and principles are implemented can vary 
 greatly, thus giving an air of relativism, but the principles themselves are 
 sacrosanct, absolute.
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 24, 2013, at 12:06 01PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Liberal religion is a religious tradition which embraces the theological 
 diversity of a congregation rather than a single creed, authority, or 
 writing. Because it may draw resources from many traditions, it cannot 
 normally be characterized as Christian, Jewish, or any particular religious 
 faith.
 
 
 ---
 It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside.
 
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-24 Thread Susan Maneck

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Don, can I ask you to please stop answering Steve's posts. As
moderator I have made it clear that he is no longer welcome here. Not
after he referred to the Baha'i community as the Heterodox Haifan
Sect. He insists on staying, but we don't need to be encouraging him
by answering his posts. I am trying to contact Mark Foster to have him
formally removed.

On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 2:16 PM, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv

 You seem to be intent on categorizing the Faith.  It's not going to work

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
This reminds of of religious trends towards traditionalism versus liberalism, 
fundamentalism versus humanism. 

Within religions, traditionalism is a common reaction to rapid changes in the 
surrounding world. Traditionalists maintain older forms of belief and practice 
regardless of new social norms. All religions have factions that tend toward 
traditionalist interpretations. Fundamentalism refers to an intensely 
traditionalist form of religion, reacting against modern forces and the 
religious reforms they encourage. It rejects a diversity of interpretations in 
favor of an authoritarian dogmatic approach that insists on one true 
interpretation.

Liberalism holds that religions should adapt to society's changes. Humanism is 
the worldview that ultimate value is grounded entirely in the human realm, not 
in the divine or supernatural. Religious Humanism is a trend in various 
religions like Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, and Unitarian Universalism. 
Humanism provides answers to life's most basic questions. It can be used 
alongside religion or without religion, becoming Secular Humanism. Humanism 
embraces the modern emphasis on science and on the intellectual pursuit of 
truth. It rejects traditionalist and fundamentalist forms of Christianity, 
Buddhism, and Judaism. Humanists find insufficient evidence for belief in the 
existence of the supernatural and the divine. Nature is seen as being deeper 
and broader than we currently think, new discoveries will enlarge our knowledge 
of nature. Humanists find there is no credible data to support belief in life 
after death. Humanists focus rather on our progeny and the ways our lives have 
influenced others. Humanist ethics tends to be based on Christian, Buddhist, 
and Jewish ethics. Humanists believe that ethics derive from human experience. 
Ethics is autonomous and situational, needing no ideological or theological 
justifications or sanctions. Ethics stem from human interest and need. To deny 
this distorts the whole basis of life. Human life has meaning because we create 
and develop our futures. Notice, Religious Humanists and Secular Humanists will 
interpret the above data differently. Religious Humanists may believe despite 
said acknowledged lack of evidence. Secular Humanists may believe that lack of 
evidence is evidence of lack. Both camps may believe that supernatural versus 
natural, divine versus natural are false dichotomies and embrace pantheism. 

I find the Baha'i Faith to be traditionalist and fundamentalist given the data 
above. Just Google Baha'i Traditionalism and Baha'i Fundamentalism to see. 
Baha'is tend to be hostile to the non-Baha'i world. They are hostile towards 
rapid changing in the surrounding world since Baha Allah's time. They maintain 
old forms of belief and practice regardless of society's norms. They are 
intensely traditionalist, extremely hostile to any religious reforms. They are 
extremely authoritarian and dogmatic.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 16, 2013, at 20:20, Skygram skyg...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Gary,
 
 You have prodded the sleeping elephant in the room!
 
 I recall many years ago there was a Bahai bumper sticker that read, Human
 Rights are God Given Rights. But now that sexual preference is considered a
 human right by many countries along with the United Nations, you don't see
 this bumper sticker any more.
 
 Over the years having known a number of gay Bahais, both male and female,
 who have struggled with their issues of sexual identity, most have ended up
 leaving the Bahai Faith because in it they found no sense of spiritual
 refuge. Instead most encountered a lot of mean spirited behaviour of self
 righteous Bahais of which unfortunately, there are more than a few.
 
 Then there is another group of Bahais who marry into relationships with
 other gay Bahais of the opposite sex. They do this to pass as straight for
 various reasons and they also struggle with the inherent conflicts of being
 homosexual in the Bahai Faith.
 
 It is all very sad for these human beings and I have discovered that there
 is little compassion found in our communities for these people. I cannot
 imagine that this is what Baha'u'llah  had in mind nor how Abdul Baha would
 want us to treat these children of God.
 
 I am sure that some of the Bahais will comfort themselves with Bahai
 scripture as a way of justifying their behaviour. But it shouldn't take
 scripture to love all of human kind without exception.
 
 Bill
 
 
 
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The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I'm not familiar with what the Mission of Maitreya Joseph Emmanuel Ahmad ibn
Abdallah position is on this? I'm not that familiar with what position this
Manifestation has on this issue. He was born in 1944 and is still alive. He
also predicts something significant to happen in 2017 that will be a sign as to
the truth of his claim or something. Definitely a lot sooner than your were
thinking, huh, Gary?

http://www.maitreya.org/

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 16, 2013, at 17:10, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Stephen seems to want desperately to flush us out of the underbrush on the
issue of all things LGBT. Clearly, the public Baha’i rules about gayness are
at odds with the customs of our (western) society in much the same way that
Baha’i rules concerning alcoholic beverages are at odds with the customs of
our society. They drink; we are prohibited from drinking. We are prohibited
from doing what gay folks do. Personally, I would way rather have a drink of
something strong than do what gay folks do, but that’s just me. I was born a
heterosexual and I know that no one born with my particular preferences would
never be inclined to choose to pursue same-sex physical/romantic
relationships. Personally, I would be leery of encouraging a gay person or a
devoted aficionado of microbreweries to enroll as a Baha’i, (no dang it; I am
not comparing homosexuality to alcoholism; I am comparing it to regular
social drinking!) regardless of their beliefs or other sterling qualities.
Folks with full knowledge of the rules who do enroll as Baha’is despite their
incompatible preferences (how many of us can truthfully deny a predilection
for back-biting?) have a ready-made spiritual battle to fight.

Having said all that, the history of religions is replete with examples of
the power of desuetude. Meditate on the laws of Deuteronomy chapters 21 and
22. Ponder deeply the issues of Acts 4:32 – 5:13. Remember fondly Matthew
19:3 – 12 and all the fun the churches have had down through the centuries
with issues of marriage and divorce.

Some laws are specifically abrogated; others just fall into desuetude as they
become unhelpful and create barriers to inclusion and the salvation of the
masses. Obdurate repudiation of desuetude turns great religions into tiny
separatist cults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude

But perhaps all of that is ancient history and irrelevant in the New Order.
Perhaps the law is engraved in stone until the next Manifestation. I don’t
know. I will watch from the next world with mild curiosity about how our
great-great grandchildren work it all out. But I suspect not too many
generations will pass before Baha’is think about homosexuality in much the
same way that Catholics think about contraception.

But who knows?

GS
-Original Message-
From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 11:15 am
Subject: Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Opps, needed to correct one of the links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenderism_and_religion

The other redirected to this one anyways.

Don, what if the influence of all secular progressivism went away, what would
society look like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

What if America or whatever else society you want to insert instead, became
desecularized...

And became a Unitarian Universalists society?
A Neo Druidist society?
A Wiccan society?
A Raëlian society?
An Eckist society?
A Liberal Hindu society?
A Liberal Mahayana Buddhist society?
A Liberal Muslim society?
A Liberal Jewish society?
A Liberal Christian society?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 15, 2013, at 16:10, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_same-sex_marriage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_religious_groups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_denominations_in_Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_Christian_denominations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LGBT-related_organizations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism_and_LGBT_topics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organizations_that_support_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_and_religion_topics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_homosexuality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_and_religion

Don, you seem to think its only because of secularism that everyone isn't on
the same page you?
Read all the above Wikipedia articles on the various religious and
theological viewpoints.

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Generally, Baha'is tend to view the criticisms of religions as valid, but only 
apply to all non-Baha'i religions. When Baha'is do the exact same things that 
they criticize people of other religions doing, they hypocritically view 
themselves as above criticism. 

I don't see myself ever returning to being a Baha'i, even though NSA mail still 
comes to my old house despite having moved to an apartment several years ago. I 
also don't really care if I still get falsely counted as an inactive Baha'i. 

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:51, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 If logic and religion conflict, people should side with logic and rationality.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_religion
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:41, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hmmm...Logic is also not on our list of world religions. Have you ever been 
 diagnosed with OCD?
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_disorder
 It's a treatable disorder.
  
 GS
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 12:19 pm
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Like just assuming since Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, 
 Bahai Faith, Zoroastrianism, and Bayaniism are the only world religions 
 mentioned in the Baha'i Writings, they're the only world religions that 
 exist. 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:08, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I generously bless people. It's what I do. Also, I'm trained in logic and 
 can notify people when they're using fallacies. Also, I'm an ex non dis 
 enrolled Baha'i who left because of the logical inconsistencies.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:00, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 ...And yet you so often bless us with your comments. Why are we so blessed?
  
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Actually I only believe in Unitarian Universalism, Mahayana Nichiren 
 Buddhism, Religious Humanism, as my survey results if asked by a survey.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:04, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to study everything and commit to nothing. This can be a path to 
 insanity. I hope that is not your fate.
 On 04/18/2013 11:37 AM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, 
 New Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World 
 Severs, Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church 
 Universal and Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, 
 Agni Yoga, Liberal Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The 
 Hearts Center, I AM University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, 
 Neo-Gnosticism, Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku 
 no Kagaku, various Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New 
 Religious Movements are good examples to use. 
  remainder deleted 
 
 -- 
 
 Mike and Dede Moum
 Des Moines, Iowa
 Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org
 Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
There are a variety of religions in the world. While most either are explicitly 
anti LGBTQQIA or neutral towards them, there are affirming religious groups.

Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Judaism have affirming factions. 
This is a specific denominational issue in Judaism and Christianity. I could 
add Buddhism as well because of the Hinayana and Mahayana divide on this issue. 
Most Hindus are on one side and conservative Hindutva is on the other. Most 
Muslims are on one side and the liberal Al Fatiha Foundation and liberal Imaan 
groups are on the other.

Wicca, Unitarian Universalism, Eckankar, LaVeyanism, Raëlism, Neo-Druidism, and 
the Native American Religion are affirming religions. Though, not listed by 
Wikipedia, I would add Thelema as well to the list due to my own research.

Religious Humanists and Religious Existentialists tend to be affirming as well.

I compiled the lists from Wikipedia articles on affirming religions, 
organizations that support same sex marriage, religious views on same sex 
marriage, etc.

It's ironic that the leeway for interpretation in scripture present in the top 
five religions allows for flexibility in this matter that the Baha'i Faith 
lacks. 

While LGBTQQIA people and allies are part of the top five religions, they do 
tend to be drawn to the next seven as well. I wonder what are the religious 
demographics of these people. 

Skygram, do you know what religions these ex-Baha'is convert to or to 
irreligion? How are they doing today? Do you still keep in contact with them? 
Was it all for the better now, if they managed to convert to an affirming 
religion or denomination? 

This is especially noted in how lots of Unitarian Universalist churches have 
extensive affirming programs in congregations which are known as Welcoming 
Churches.

It is sad for the ones who stay Baha'is, but they apostates probably have moved 
on with their lives for the better. 

While I didn't come to my current religious affiliations because they were 
affirming, but rather for other reasons. I choose Unitarian Universalism 
because of the diversity of religious beliefs that can fit within that big 
tent. Religious Humanism because I liked reading the Humanist Manifestoes, but 
didn't care for Secular Humanism. Buddhist Humanism, Humanistic Buddhism, 
Nichiren Buddhism, Buddhist Modernism, Engaged Buddhism, Buddhist 
Protestantism, etc. because of my prior like of Religious Humanism and my 
liking of Mahayana Buddhism.

I was interested in Eckankar because of soul travel and various other things. I 
was interested in Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism and hence Neo-Druidism and 
Wicca. I was interested in various UFO religions including Raëlism. 

I like the Golden Rule which is in all religions. I like the page on Wikipedia 
listing the various formulations across religions. Buddhism and Humanism have 
my favorite formulations. I also like the Declaration of a Global Ethic. 
Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism have formulations I read regularly 
as well via the Wikipedia page. Wicca and Thelema also have formulations that I 
have memorized as well as read regularly via Wikipedia. 

The Humanist Manifesto II

In the best sense, religion may inspire dedication to the highest ethical 
ideals. The cultivation of moral devotion and creative imagination is an 
expression of genuine spiritual experience and aspiration. 

We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or religions that place 
revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a 
disservice to the human species. 

Whether the Baha'i Faith does a disservice to humanity is up to debate, or not?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 16, 2013, at 20:20, Skygram skyg...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Gary,
 
 You have prodded the sleeping elephant in the room!
 
 I recall many years ago there was a Bahai bumper sticker that read, Human
 Rights are God Given Rights. But now that sexual preference is considered a
 human right by many countries along with the United Nations, you don't see
 this bumper sticker any more.
 
 Over the years having known a number of gay Bahais, both male and female,
 who have struggled with their issues of sexual identity, most have ended up
 leaving the Bahai Faith because in it they found no sense of spiritual
 refuge. Instead most encountered a lot of mean spirited behaviour of self
 righteous Bahais of which unfortunately, there are more than a few.
 
 Then there is another group of Bahais who marry into relationships with
 other gay Bahais of the opposite sex. They do this to pass as straight for
 various reasons and they also struggle with the inherent conflicts of being
 homosexual in the Bahai Faith.
 
 It is all very sad for these human beings and I have discovered that there
 is little compassion found in our communities for these people. I cannot
 imagine that this is what Baha'u'llah  had in mind nor how Abdul Baha would

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Gary, if a person had a predilection for anything forbidden by the Aqdas wether 
clergy, confession, hand kissing, long hair in men, head shaving, monasticism, 
homosexuality, drinking alcohol, smoking opium, begging, etc., they probably 
would have no interest in the Baha'i Faith to begin with making this a mute 
point.

Baha'is assume that naturally everyone will naturally see the Baha'i Faith as 
naturally superior to all faiths thus explaining an expected wide range of 
conversions to the Faith despite no factual basis such a thing will ever happen.

Gary, do you suggest affirming religions they should look into instead of the 
Baha'i Faith if any non-heterosexual or ally came to you to discus their 
interest in enrolling? Wicca, Unitarian Universalism, Eckankar, LaVeyanism, 
Raëlism, Neo-Druidism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, 
Thelema, Religious Humanism, Religious Existentialism, etc. are my suggestions 
I'd give instead.

Also, I prefer religions with precepts over ones with laws. They are immune to 
desuetude. Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Scientology, Taoism, Wicca, etc. are 
all good examples.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 16, 2013, at 17:10, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Stephen seems to want desperately to flush us out of the underbrush on the 
 issue of all things LGBT. Clearly, the public Baha’i rules about gayness are 
 at odds with the customs of our (western) society in much the same way that  
 Baha’i rules concerning alcoholic beverages are at odds with the customs of 
 our society. They drink; we are prohibited from drinking. We are prohibited 
 from doing what gay folks do. Personally, I would way rather have a drink of 
 something strong than do what gay folks do, but that’s just me. I was born a 
 heterosexual and I know that no one born with my particular preferences would 
 never be inclined to choose to pursue same-sex physical/romantic 
 relationships. Personally, I would be leery of encouraging a gay person or a 
 devoted aficionado of microbreweries to enroll as a Baha’i, (no dang it; I am 
 not comparing homosexuality to alcoholism; I am comparing it to regular 
 social drinking!) regardless of their beliefs or other sterling qualities. 
 Folks with full knowledge of the rules who do enroll as Baha’is despite their 
 incompatible preferences (how many of us can truthfully deny a predilection 
 for back-biting?) have a ready-made spiritual battle to fight.
  
 Having said all that, the history of religions is replete with examples of 
 the power of desuetude. Meditate on the laws of Deuteronomy chapters 21 and 
 22. Ponder deeply the issues of Acts 4:32 – 5:13. Remember fondly Matthew 
 19:3 – 12 and all the fun the churches have had down through the centuries 
 with issues of marriage and divorce.
  
 Some laws are specifically abrogated; others just fall into desuetude as they 
 become unhelpful and create barriers to inclusion and the salvation of the 
 masses. Obdurate repudiation of desuetude turns great religions into tiny 
 separatist cults.
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude
  
 But perhaps all of that is ancient history and irrelevant in the New Order. 
 Perhaps the law is engraved in stone until the next Manifestation. I don’t 
 know. I will watch from the next world with mild curiosity about how our 
 great-great grandchildren work it all out. But I suspect not too many 
 generations will pass before Baha’is think about homosexuality in much the 
 same way that Catholics think about contraception.  
  
 But who knows?
  
 GS 
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 11:15 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Opps, needed to correct one of the links.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenderism_and_religion
 
 The other redirected to this one anyways.
 
 Don, what if the influence of all secular progressivism went away, what would 
 society look like?
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
 
 What if America or whatever else society you want to insert instead, became 
 desecularized...
 
 And became a Unitarian Universalists society?
 A Neo Druidist society?
 A Wiccan society?
 A Raëlian society?
 An Eckist society?
 A Liberal Hindu society?
 A Liberal Mahayana Buddhist society?
 A Liberal Muslim society?
 A Liberal Jewish society?
 A Liberal Christian society?
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 15, 2013, at 16:10, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserve
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_same-sex_marriage
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_religious_groups
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_denominations_in_Judaism
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_Christian_denominations
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Actually, not other religions, only Muslims. If you were familiar with what's 
happening in Burma, you'd know the Muslims started it. Muslims attacked first, 
so Buddhists are rationally retaliating rather than appeasing the barbarian 
Muslim horde.

Lots of people not just Buddhists, but Jews, Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, 
etc. are worried about the Muslim Islamic threat to civilization. Radical 
lefties call them Islamophobes, but Islamic Muslim behavior and not 
Islamophobic imagination is the cause of the current situation.

Wiki Islam is a good website.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:24, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 There are militant fundamentalist Buddhists that have attacked members of 
 other religions.
 
 Don C
 
 
 On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:17 46PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Buddhist states aren't oppressive with religious rules.
 
 
 -
 Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
There are verses in the Quran that forbid them, too. They are abrogated by 
other verses.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 22, 2013, at 14:25, Ian Kluge iankl...@netbistro.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 I'm referring to beliefs not practices
 
 No, you are not referring to beliefs instead of practices. Your own words 
 contradict you:
 
 Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration **in action**
 **rivals** North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places 
 in
 terms of totalitarianism.
 
 The phrase in action refers to practices. So, as a matter of fact, you were 
 indeed saying that Baha'i practices rival[ed the actions of these horrible 
 regimes. You have yet to present any evidence for such a claim.
 
 Nor do Baha'i beliefs 'rival' those of these totalitarian regimes. Physical 
 violence and terror are the sine qua non of all totalitarian regimes. Yet 
 physical violence and terror are precisely what is forbidden in the Baha'i 
 belief system when it comes to religious matters. In other words, a Baha'i 
 totalitarian state is impossible.
 
 Best wishes,
 
 Ian Kluge 
 
 
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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-23 Thread Don Calkins

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma

 In Sri Lanka a couple months ago, Sinhalo-Buddhists called for the expulsion 
of all Christians and Muslims.  

However, a fundamentalist Buddhist usually believes that non-Buddhists are 
condemned to be reborn in progressively lower forms for all eternity.  
 
Don C

On Apr 22, 2013, at 1:38 51PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

 Actually, not other religions, only Muslims. If you were familiar with what's 
 happening in Burma, you'd know the Muslims started it. Muslims attacked 
 first, so Buddhists are rationally retaliating rather than appeasing the 
 barbarian Muslim horde.
 


-
Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.




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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-23 Thread Don Calkins

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
So, as my mother used to say, if they all jump off a cliff, are you going to 
jump, too??

Let those so inclined go to those religions.  

Don C

On Apr 19, 2013, at 10:35 41PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

 There are a variety of religions in the world. While most either are 
 explicitly anti LGBTQQIA or neutral towards them, there are affirming 
 religious groups.

snip

He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.




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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
You forgot that this was in the context of having a seperatist war with the 
Tamil Tigers to preserve the territory of Sri Lanka against the creation of 
Tamil Eelam.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 23, 2013, at 1:40, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_in_Burma
 
  In Sri Lanka a couple months ago, Sinhalo-Buddhists called for the expulsion 
 of all Christians and Muslims.  
 
 However, a fundamentalist Buddhist usually believes that non-Buddhists are 
 condemned to be reborn in progressively lower forms for all eternity.  
  
 Don C
 
 On Apr 22, 2013, at 1:38 51PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Actually, not other religions, only Muslims. If you were familiar with 
 what's happening in Burma, you'd know the Muslims started it. Muslims 
 attacked first, so Buddhists are rationally retaliating rather than 
 appeasing the barbarian Muslim horde.
 
 
 -
 Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

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South Sudan is its own country now.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 18:32, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Note Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan, Brunei, Bangladesh, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia,
 Yemen, etc. are listed as completely illegal alcohol status rather than just
 Saudi Arabia like you imply.
 
 I didn't say Saudi Arabia was the only country which completely banned
 alcohol, I indicated that this was not the usual pattern for a Muslim
 country. The usual pattern is for non-Muslims, but not Muslims to be
 allowed to drink alcohol. And what is stated above is not entirely
 accurate. In Bangladesh, for instance, alcohol may be purchased from
 government warehouses, certain bars and 4-5 star hotels. Yemen does
 not really have religious minorities. In the Sudan the prohibition
 against alcohol is enforced in the north, but not in the south which
 is predominantly Christian. As for Kuwait and Yemen, all of its
 citizens are Muslims so it does not feel compelled to make allowances
 for non-Muslims. As for Brunei, while alcohol is not sold anywhere
 foreign visitors are allowed to bring in up to two liters so long as
 they declare it and obtain a permit.
 
 Also note Iran and Pakistan are listed as almost completely illegal.
 
 Also note in Gabon, Gambia, Malaysia, Maldives, etc. alcohol is legal for
 everyone except the Muslim minority.
 
 Apparently you forgot what this whole subject was about, which is the
 fact that Islamic law is not imposed on non-Muslims in most states.
 The fact that Iran, Pakistan and these other countries allow it only
 for non-Muslim minorities reinforces what I was saying all along.
 
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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
People can use consultation aka Athenian Democracy without the Baha'i Faith or 
any particular religion at all or even religion itself.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:49, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 How should people use consultation to arrive at public policy?
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:08, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Susan, how would consultation work in the overall world rather than just in 
 the Baha'i community? You seem to forget about all the non-Baha'i religious 
 texts out there. You also seem to think that any group of people with any 
 types of religious beliefs can get together and consult with each other and 
 the result will be that people will naturally never do anything forbidden in 
 the Aqdas even without the knowledge of the Aqdas. 
 
 Consultation would be impossible if it required all participants had to have 
 extensive knowledge of all religious texts ever. Also, all actions would be 
 impossible because of the possibility of being forbidden in some religious 
 text.
 
 How are people supposed to use consultation as a model without superimposing 
 Baha'i religious texts on non-Baha'is?
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_text
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 12:53, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Things
 like adoption and marriage are private contracts and the government has no
 reason to interfere is the standard Libertarian Right argument.
 
 I would largely agree with that except that in the case of adoption
 the 'contract' involves a party unable to speak up for themselves,
 namely the child.
 
 Also, what I've read from various blogs like
 Karen Bacquet's blogs and various other is that the ideal of Baha'i
 Administration and the reality of Baha'i Administration are two separate
 things. Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration in action
 rivals North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places in
 terms of totalitarianism.
 
 If you use disgruntled ex-Baha'is as your source of information that
 is what you are going to hear. However, if you had actually interacted
 with the Baha'i community in real life rather than just on the
 internet I think you would have found out differently.
 
 Interesting side note, what if consultation resulted in the people involved
 accepting anything forbidden by the Kitab-I-Aqdas?
 
 Consultation does not trump the Word of God. If it did, there would be
 no need for revelation.
 
 Also, I find your description of Administrators to be not consistent with
 the facts of how Administrators actually behave.
 
 And you know what about this from personal experience. Nothing.
 
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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Susan, let's try this. On your next trip to Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Brunei, 
Kuwait, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, etc. See if you can legally buy and 
drink alcohol there. Then, try and search the black market for illegal alcohol 
if you need to. While you don't have to actually drink the alcohol once you get 
it, but you need to see which one of us is correct.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 15:24, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Here below is a Wikipedia excerpt.
 
 Note Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan, Brunei, Bangladesh, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, 
 Yemen, etc. are listed as completely illegal alcohol status rather than just 
 Saudi Arabia like you imply.
 
 Also note Iran and Pakistan are listed as almost completely illegal.
 
 Also note in Gabon, Gambia, Malaysia, Maldives, etc. alcohol is legal for 
 everyone except the Muslim minority.
 ethanol (ethyl alcohol, commonly referred to as simply alcohol, produced 
 through fermentation by yeast in alcoholic beverages such as wine and beer) – 
 legal but regulated in most parts of the world, and illegal in several Muslim 
 countries such as Pakistan, Libya, Sudan, Iran and Saudi Arabia; not consumed 
 by members of some religions. It acts as a GABAA receptor agonist. In 
 chemistry,alcohol can refer to more than ethyl alcohol. Methanol (methyl 
 alcohol, or wood alcohol) is poisonous.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_drug_use
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 15:10, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I think only Indonesia is such a Muslim state. All other Muslim states
 impose Islamic law on all people there, regardless of their actual religious
 beliefs. India is another state that has religious law that varies depending
 upon the religion of the person. But for the most, theocratic states and
 religious states always impose one religions's laws on all people in their
 territory and citizenship regardless of their religious beliefs.
 
 Dear Stephen,
 I'm talking about the way in which Islamic states have operated
 historically, not how they might operate today. Check, for instance,
 the way the Ottoman Empire was organized.
 
 Your alcohol example is actually not the case. Muslim states are completely
 Prohibitionist.
 
 Wrong. Even wiki knows better than that. See for instance:
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_in_Iran
 
 Now countries like Saudi Arabia prohibit alcohol to everyone but they
 are not exactly known for their religious tolerance. But countries
 like Turkey even produce beer. Alcohol is legal in Iraq as well.
 
 In Malaysia Chinese people, Christians, Buddhists, and Hindus are all
 allowed to drink alcohol. It is illegal only for Muslims. In Indonesia
 there are night clubs, restaurants, and pubs that serve alcohol. You
 can even bring a bottle of alcohol with  into the country legally. .
 But in certain rural areas it can get you caned.
 
 While you can drink alcohol there on the black market, it is
 still technically illegal. To clarify, Muslim states are completely
 Prohibitionist regardless of a person's religion.
 
 Sorry, Stephen but I have a PhD in Middle East and South East Asia
 which focuses on religious minorities in the Islamic context, whereas
 you get all your information from the internet. Which of us do you
 think knows what they are talking about?
 
 Susan
 
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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Well. There is Mission of Maitreya religion.

http://www.maitreya.org/

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 12:58, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Because Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah has given us God's most recent 
 revelation.
 On 04/18/2013 12:16 PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 The articles show the relationship between religion and morality and ethics.
 
 Why should non- Bahai's take Baha'i morality and ethics over all else.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_in_religion
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 11:37, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 ics.Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New 
 Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, 
 Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and 
 Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal 
 Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM 
 University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, 
 Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various 
 Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements are 
 good examples to use. 
 
 I assume everyone here is familiar with Kohlberg and his six, or seven, 
 stages of moral development and don't need to explain pre-conventional, 
 conventional, and post-conventional moralities. Conventional morality tends 
 to make people think under the lines of malum prohibitum or mala prohibita, 
 evil because it's prohibited. Post conventional morality tends to make 
 people think in terms of malum in se or mala in se, evil in and of itself. 
 Most of the above religions above are completely post conventional. I guess 
 the Baha'i Faith is post conventional, but the Kitab-I-Aqdas does tend to 
 be used as a tool of conventional rather than post conventional morality. I 
 would rather use other examples of the above. Unitarian Universalism is a 
 prime example with no laws at all, but various principles. Wicca is another 
 example with the Wiccan Rede as a good summary of post conventional 
 morality as well as the Charge of the Goddess. Scientology and the Way to 
 Happiness also describe morality in this way as well. Nichiren Buddhism and 
 its Diamond Chalice Precept is another good example of post conventional 
 morality. The parables of the Lotus Sutra are also used as guidelines of 
 ethical and moral principles. Mahayana Buddhism in general has favored 
 non-aggression based compassion in, over, and above all things. This has 
 lead to a history of compassion leading people to do prohibited things 
 which aren't evil in themselves, but were prohibited because compassion 
 dictated it. Drinking alcohol, having sex, eating animal products, wearing 
 animal products, etc. can be motivated by compassion and bring people 
 closer to enlightenment as illustrated in the Buddhism section of the books 
 section of the Religion and Sexuality page on Wikipedia. I remember looking 
 at the previews on Amazon of the two books on Sex in Zen and Buddhism in 
 general as well, especially Zen and Vajrayana.   The above 
 position has been known as the standard Tantra position.
 
 Also, no I don't align myself with the the Left or the Right most of the 
 time because my fiscal responsibility puts me at odds with the Left and my 
 social tolerance puts me at odds with the Right. 
 
 This reminds me of a recent debate on Abby Martin, because I watch RT News. 
 She had three representatives of various ideologies on her show to debate. 
 Two representatives of the Libertarian Left and one representative of the 
 Libertarian Right. Actually, they wound up agreeing on a whole bunch of 
 points. 
 
 A side note is that the Left wing media tends to fire anyone who questions 
 Authoritarianism. Once that happens, Right wing media picks them up and 
 hires them. Just think of all the people who were fired from CNN, NBC, NPR, 
 or whatever other media outlet for ideological reasons and now work for 
 Fox. Noam Chomsky, a noted Left Libertarian, has said that original only 
 Right wing publishers were willing to publish his works. 
 
 There is also the rise of a pro-LGBT conservatism as seen by the likes of 
 David

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I don't really care for officially dis enrolling. It seems like a lot of hard 
work.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:08, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I generously bless people. It's what I do. Also, I'm trained in logic and can 
 notify people when they're using fallacies. Also, I'm an ex non dis enrolled 
 Baha'i who left because of the logical inconsistencies.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:00, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 ...And yet you so often bless us with your comments. Why are we so blessed?
  
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Actually I only believe in Unitarian Universalism, Mahayana Nichiren 
 Buddhism, Religious Humanism, as my survey results if asked by a survey.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:04, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to study everything and commit to nothing. This can be a path to 
 insanity. I hope that is not your fate.
 On 04/18/2013 11:37 AM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New 
 Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, 
 Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and 
 Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal 
 Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM 
 University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, 
 Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various 
 Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements 
 are good examples to use. 
  remainder deleted 
 
 -- 
 
 Mike and Dede Moum
 Des Moines, Iowa
 Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org
 Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I'm referring to beliefs not practices.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 15:51, Ian Kluge iankl...@netbistro.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Stephen:
 
 Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration in action
 rivals North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places in
 terms of totalitarianism.
 
 Stephen, I come from a family of refugees from Eastern Europe some of whom 
 survived Hitler and Stalin. You haven't got a blessed clue of what you're 
 talking about with this comparison. I suggest you get off Wikipedia and read 
 some serious history books. I will be happy to provide you with a reading 
 list to cure your lamentable ignorance.
 
 Which of the following techniques has the Baha'i Faith used?
 
 1) physical violence, murder and maiming, physical torture: teeth pulling (no 
 novacaine); testicle crushing; nipple ripping; dental work (no novacaine); 
 anal rape with truncheons; fingernail pulling; eye gouging; electrodes to 
 genitalia   . .  to name just a few.
 2) midnight arrests (actually 2 a.m. was the usual time under Stalin)
 3) slave labor camps whose only purpose is working people to death in 
 horrrible ways. Kolyma is the Soviet Auschwitz.
 4) family arrests and also friends and acquaintances; disappearances;
 5) spies within families (easier to do than you think); schools, work places, 
 churches (including priests); hospitals,  etc. Some of these spy reports are 
 husband spying on wife and vice versa; parents on children and vice versa; 
 friends on each other; school teachers on students in and out of school;
 
 The Baha'i Faith rivals these indeed! If such ignorance wasn't so tragic, 
 it would be funny.
 
 Ian Kluge
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Why isn't the Baha'i Faith a liberal religion?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 16, 2013, at 13:14, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Opps, needed to correct one of the links.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenderism_and_religion
 
 The other redirected to this one anyways.
 
 Don, what if the influence of all secular progressivism went away, what would 
 society look like?
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
 
 What if America or whatever else society you want to insert instead, became 
 desecularized...
 
 And became a Unitarian Universalists society?
 A Neo Druidist society?
 A Wiccan society?
 A Raëlian society?
 An Eckist society?
 A Liberal Hindu society?
 A Liberal Mahayana Buddhist society?
 A Liberal Muslim society?
 A Liberal Jewish society?
 A Liberal Christian society?
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 15, 2013, at 16:10, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserve
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_same-sex_marriage
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_religious_groups
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_denominations_in_Judaism
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_Christian_denominations
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LGBT-related_organizations
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism_and_LGBT_topics
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organizations_that_support_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_and_religion_topics
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_homosexuality
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_and_religion
 
 Don, you seem to think its only because of secularism that everyone isn't on 
 the same page you?
 Read all the above Wikipedia articles on the various religious and 
 theological viewpoints.

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Re: Against nature...

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Why do they call it midnight if its really early morning?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 16:01, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 According to some blogs I've read...
 
 http://bahaisects.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/bahai-leadership-may-spy-on-you/
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 15:51, Ian Kluge iankl...@netbistro.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Stephen:
 
 Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration in action
 rivals North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places in
 terms of totalitarianism.
 
 Stephen, I come from a family of refugees from Eastern Europe some of whom 
 survived Hitler and Stalin. You haven't got a blessed clue of what you're 
 talking about with this comparison. I suggest you get off Wikipedia and read 
 some serious history books. I will be happy to provide you with a reading 
 list to cure your lamentable ignorance.
 
 Which of the following techniques has the Baha'i Faith used?
 
 1) physical violence, murder and maiming, physical torture: teeth pulling 
 (no novacaine); testicle crushing; nipple ripping; dental work (no 
 novacaine); anal rape with truncheons; fingernail pulling; eye gouging; 
 electrodes to genitalia   . .  to name just a few.
 2) midnight arrests (actually 2 a.m. was the usual time under Stalin)
 3) slave labor camps whose only purpose is working people to death in 
 horrrible ways. Kolyma is the Soviet Auschwitz.
 4) family arrests and also friends and acquaintances; disappearances;
 5) spies within families (easier to do than you think); schools, work 
 places, churches (including priests); hospitals,  etc. Some of these spy 
 reports are husband spying on wife and vice versa; parents on children and 
 vice versa; friends on each other; school teachers on students in and out of 
 school;
 
 The Baha'i Faith rivals these indeed! If such ignorance wasn't so tragic, 
 it would be funny.
 
 Ian Kluge
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
The Aeon of Isis represented a maternalistic age where people were children.
The Aeon of Osiris represented a paternalistic age where people were teenagers.
The Aeon of Horus represents individualism where people are adults.

The Aeon of Horus began in 1904. 

The Aeon of Eris began in 1958. It's the same but on steroids.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2013, at 16:01, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Interesting, I'm a member of the Libertarian Right myself. Classical 
 liberalism, Libertarianism, Minarchism, Anarcho-Capitalism, Laissez-faire, 
 etc.
 
 Sounds like the concept of Aeons in Thelema.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_(Thelema)
 
 Lots of religious groups have concepts of dispensationalism. 
 Examples
 Hare Krishnas and the Age of Bhakti
 Nichiren Buddhists and the Age of the Lotus Sutra
 Discordians and the Age of Eris
 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 17, 2013, at 15:25, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 on the contrary . . . .
 
 Like most Euro-Americans, you believe in some kind of authoritarianism in 
 which those in control pass laws to make people behave according to your 
 standards and then punish people who do not comply.  i reject that as an 
 efficient and effective means of administration.  
 
 Further, I do believe in a form of separation of church and state such that 
 Baha'i law will not be forced on non-Baha'is.
 
 What happens when Baha'is run the world?  First off, I reject the 
 terminology.  I don't believe Baha'is will ever be in charge in the sense 
 that governments are today.   When the Baha'i Commonwealth with the House of 
 Justice at its head comes into being, the entire idea of someone being in 
 charge will be seen as anachronistic.  
 
 How do I believe the Baha'i administration will come to power?  By 
 default.  It will be recognized as the only effective administrative system 
 that is actually functioning.  You think this is impossible?  Look at what 
 has happened in parts of the world where the central government has 
 collapsed and fundamentalist Islam has been embraced by the populace, if 
 only temporarily.  They were accepted because they provided stability and 
 nobody else could.  in a similar manner, parts of northern Italy were ruled 
 by the Communist Party for the the same reason.  You may not have liked 
 their philosophy, but there were relatively corruption free.  
 
 You and I Stephen have extremely different administrative philosophies.  Not 
 only am I a Baha'i, but I also have a libertarian left administrative 
 philosophy.  There are not very many other Baha'is in that category and even 
 fewer who have given any tho't as to how that philosophy informs the 
 functioning of the Baha'i Administration.  
 
 According to Baha'u'llah, this is not merely a new Dispensation, but a new 
 age, the Age of Maturity.  As such, what we are going thru' is the greatest 
 change to the functioning of human affairs since the mythic Time of Adam, 
 when the Culture Hero societies replaced the Mother Goddess societies.  The 
 Adamic Cycle can be seen as the equivalent of going thru' puberty.  We are 
 now embarking on our maturity and it is time for us to grow up and take 
 responsibility for our own affairs instead of waiting for mommy and daddy 
 (kings/gov'ts/administrators) to tell us what to do.  Rather, the new 
 purpose of administrators is to remind us, repeatedly and persistently if 
 necessary, what the proper principles should guide us.  Shoghi Effendi made 
 reference to this idea many years ago when he told local Assemblies to quit 
 making up rules to enforce on their members.  
 
 Another point - most leftist activists in the United States are 
 authoritarian, they seek power so they can make other people do things their 
 way.  Most leftist activists also define equality in terms of power; that 
 is, a group of people are only equal to the extent they have members who 
 exercise power.  That is the reason some people make a big deal out of there 
 not being any women on the House of Justice.  It is seen as having for its 
 purpose the exercise of power and if women are not allowed to participate, 
 then they have less power and are, therefore, not quite equal.  I reject 
 that entire argument.
 
 You may think I have avoided the topic or changed it. i have not.   What I 
 have done is shown how your entire argument is irrelevant.  
 
 Don C
 
 Susan, have you read the earlier e-mail in this thread. Don C thinks 
 society should have a zero tolerance policy towards non-heterosexuality. No 
 marriage, no civil unions, no domestic partnership, no adoption, no 
 parental rights, etc. He was complaining society gives them too many rights 
 and blames it on secular liberalism. 
 
 
 ---
 It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside.
 
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I'm a huge fan of Religious Humanism.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2013, at 16:15, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 That reminds me that while I'm fiscally responsible, I'm socially tolerant. 
 I'm currently religious Humanist, Nichiren Buddhist, and Unitarian 
 Universalist. 
 
 Also, yes. Don C, I have noticed the Left has been authoritarian and the 
 Right libertarian. 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 17, 2013, at 16:01, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Interesting, I'm a member of the Libertarian Right myself. Classical 
 liberalism, Libertarianism, Minarchism, Anarcho-Capitalism, Laissez-faire, 
 etc.
 
 Sounds like the concept of Aeons in Thelema.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeon_(Thelema)
 
 Lots of religious groups have concepts of dispensationalism. 
 Examples
 Hare Krishnas and the Age of Bhakti
 Nichiren Buddhists and the Age of the Lotus Sutra
 Discordians and the Age of Eris
 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 17, 2013, at 15:25, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 on the contrary . . . .
 
 Like most Euro-Americans, you believe in some kind of authoritarianism in 
 which those in control pass laws to make people behave according to your 
 standards and then punish people who do not comply.  i reject that as an 
 efficient and effective means of administration. 
 
 Further, I do believe in a form of separation of church and state such that 
 Baha'i law will not be forced on non-Baha'is.
 
 What happens when Baha'is run the world?  First off, I reject the 
 terminology.  I don't believe Baha'is will ever be in charge in the sense 
 that governments are today.   When the Baha'i Commonwealth with the House 
 of Justice at its head comes into being, the entire idea of someone being 
 in charge will be seen as anachronistic.  
 
 How do I believe the Baha'i administration will come to power?  By 
 default.  It will be recognized as the only effective administrative system 
 that is actually functioning.  You think this is impossible?  Look at what 
 has happened in parts of the world where the central government has 
 collapsed and fundamentalist Islam has been embraced by the populace, if 
 only temporarily.  They were accepted because they provided stability and 
 nobody else could.  in a similar manner, parts of northern Italy were ruled 
 by the Communist Party for the the same reason.  You may not have liked 
 their philosophy, but there were relatively corruption free.  
 
 You and I Stephen have extremely different administrative philosophies.  
 Not only am I a Baha'i, but I also have a libertarian left administrative 
 philosophy.  There are not very many other Baha'is in that category and 
 even fewer who have given any tho't as to how that philosophy informs the 
 functioning of the Baha'i Administration.  
 
 According to Baha'u'llah, this is not merely a new Dispensation, but a new 
 age, the Age of Maturity.  As such, what we are going thru' is the greatest 
 change to the functioning of human affairs since the mythic Time of Adam, 
 when the Culture Hero societies replaced the Mother Goddess societies.  The 
 Adamic Cycle can be seen as the equivalent of going thru' puberty.  We are 
 now embarking on our maturity and it is time for us to grow up and take 
 responsibility for our own affairs instead of waiting for mommy and daddy 
 (kings/gov'ts/administrators) to tell us what to do.  Rather, the new 
 purpose of administrators is to remind us, repeatedly and persistently if 
 necessary, what the proper principles should guide us.  Shoghi Effendi made 
 reference to this idea many years ago when he told local Assemblies to quit 
 making up rules to enforce on their members.  
 
 Another point - most leftist activists in the United States are 
 authoritarian, they seek power so they can make other people do things 
 their way.  Most leftist activists also define equality in terms of power; 
 that is, a group of people are only equal to the extent they have members 
 who exercise power.  That is the reason some people make a big deal out of 
 there not being any women on the House of Justice.  It is seen as having 
 for its purpose the exercise of power and if women are not allowed to 
 participate, then they have less power and are, therefore, not quite equal. 
  I reject that entire argument.
 
 You may think I have avoided the topic or changed it. i have not.   What I 
 have done is shown how your entire argument is irrelevant.  
 
 Don C
 
 Susan, have you read the earlier e-mail in this thread. Don C thinks 
 society should have a zero tolerance policy towards non-heterosexuality. 
 No marriage, no civil unions, no domestic partnership, no adoption, no 
 parental rights, etc. He was complaining society gives them too many 
 rights and blames it on secular liberalism. 
 
 
 ---
 It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Do you have or any else here have expertise in biology, psychology, and 
sociology?

Also, what idiot can't spell psychological? 

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 8, 2013, at 13:43, Hasan Elías hasanel...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hi David,
 
 I wonder if science have discovered some kind of predisposition (genetic 
 mutation)? I believe the bahá'í writings don't contemplate this scenario, our 
 writings say that this is a psicological problem (debility).
 
 Regards,
 
 Hasan
 
 De: David Regal david.re...@yahoo.com
 Para: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu 
 Enviado: Viernes, 5 de abril, 2013 11:26 P.M.
 Asunto: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 If humans are supposed to be heterosexual, as the Baha'i Writings say, why 
 are so many animals homosexual?  Did God intend many animals to be so?  If He 
 did then God is okay with homosexual animals but not humans, which I'd like 
 an explanation for.  Here is the Wikipedia article on homosexuality in 
 animals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

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Yes, probably forty or eighty years from now, the Bahai Faith will have 
disappeared from the Western world. The Middle East and Africa may still have 
Baha'is though.

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On Apr 16, 2013, at 19:16, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Baha'u'llah dicusses a good example of desuetude in Iqan par 92 (old p. 85) 
 concerning the Jews and the death penalty for adultery. The rabbis were 
 worried that their people would disappear due to enforcing the letter of the 
 law. At this point it is easy to imagine (!) an analogous situation where, 
 within a generation or two, in North America, it is almost impossible to 
 teach the faith and difficult even to retain believers, due to the continued 
 enforcement and defense of the principle that gay people are not welcome to 
 live comfortably and express their preferences openly in the Baha'i 
 community.  
  
 But is that suggestion a vain imagining? Very possibly!
  
 GS
 -Original Message-
 From: Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 3:18 pm
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Pardon me. The Deuteronomy reference emphatically should include Deuteronomy 
 chapter 20, along with 21 and 22. Sorry.
  
 GS
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 3:11 pm
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Stephen seems to want desperately to flush us out of the underbrush on the 
 issue of all things LGBT. Clearly, the public Baha’i rules about gayness are 
 at odds with the customs of our (western) society in much the same way that  
 Baha’i rules concerning alcoholic beverages are at odds with the customs of 
 our society. They drink; we are prohibited from drinking. We are prohibited 
 from doing what gay folks do. Personally, I would way rather have a drink of 
 something strong than do what gay folks do, but that’s just me. I was born a 
 heterosexual and I know that no one born with my particular preferences would 
 never be inclined to choose to pursue same-sex physical/romantic 
 relationships. Personally, I would be leery of encouraging a gay person or a 
 devoted aficionado of microbreweries to enroll as a Baha’i, (no dang it; I am 
 not comparing homosexuality to alcoholism; I am comparing it to regular 
 social drinking!) regardless of their beliefs or other sterling qualities. 
 Folks with full knowledge of the rules who do enroll as Baha’is despite their 
 incompatible preferences (how many of us can truthfully deny a predilection 
 for back-biting?) have a ready-made spiritual battle to fight.
  
 Having said all that, the history of religions is replete with examples of 
 the power of desuetude. Meditate on the laws of Deuteronomy chapters 21 and 
 22. Ponder deeply the issues of Acts 4:32 – 5:13. Remember fondly Matthew 
 19:3 – 12 and all the fun the churches have had down through the centuries 
 with issues of marriage and divorce.
  
 Some laws are specifically abrogated; others just fall into desuetude as they 
 become unhelpful and create barriers to inclusion and the salvation of the 
 masses. Obdurate repudiation of desuetude turns great religions into tiny 
 separatist cults.
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude
  
 But perhaps all of that is ancient history and irrelevant in the New Order. 
 Perhaps the law is engraved in stone until the next Manifestation. I don’t 
 know. I will watch from the next world with mild curiosity about how our 
 great-great grandchildren work it all out. But I suspect not too many 
 generations will pass before Baha’is think about homosexuality in much the 
 same way that Catholics think about contraception.  
  
 But who knows?
  
 GS 
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 11:15 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Opps, needed to correct one of the links.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenderism_and_religion
 
 The other redirected to this one anyways.
 
 Don, what if the influence of all secular progressivism went away, what would 
 society look like?
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
 
 What if America or whatever else society you want to insert instead, became 
 desecularized...
 
 And became a Unitarian Universalists society?
 A Neo Druidist society?
 A Wiccan society?
 A Raëlian society?
 An Eckist society?
 A Liberal Hindu society?
 A Liberal Mahayana Buddhist society?
 A Liberal Muslim society?
 A Liberal Jewish society?
 A Liberal Christian society?
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 15, 2013, at 16:10, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserve
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
You seem to be study nothing despite committing to the Baha'i Faith.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:04, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to study everything and commit to nothing. This can be a path to 
 insanity. I hope that is not your fate.
 On 04/18/2013 11:37 AM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their relationship 
 to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, Seicho- 
 No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian Universalism, 
 Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, Neo-Druidry or 
 Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various Japanese 
 Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious Humanism, 
 Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New Age 
 Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, 
 Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and 
 Triumphant, The Summit   Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, 
 Liberal Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM 
 University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, Unarius 
 Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various Nichiren 
 Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements are good 
 examples to use. 
  remainder deleted 
 
 -- 
 
 Mike and Dede Moum
 Des Moines, Iowa
 Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org
 Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Just because the Kitab I Aqdas hasn't been put in practice, doesn't make it any 
less of an authoritarian dogmatic theocratic manifesto! Just look at all the 
things the the Aqdas requires to be illegal in a Baha'i state. 

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 16:01, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 According to some blogs I've read...
 
 http://bahaisects.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/bahai-leadership-may-spy-on-you/
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 15:51, Ian Kluge iankl...@netbistro.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Stephen:
 
 Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration in action
 rivals North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places in
 terms of totalitarianism.
 
 Stephen, I come from a family of refugees from Eastern Europe some of whom 
 survived Hitler and Stalin. You haven't got a blessed clue of what you're 
 talking about with this comparison. I suggest you get off Wikipedia and read 
 some serious history books. I will be happy to provide you with a reading 
 list to cure your lamentable ignorance.
 
 Which of the following techniques has the Baha'i Faith used?
 
 1) physical violence, murder and maiming, physical torture: teeth pulling 
 (no novacaine); testicle crushing; nipple ripping; dental work (no 
 novacaine); anal rape with truncheons; fingernail pulling; eye gouging; 
 electrodes to genitalia   . .  to name just a few.
 2) midnight arrests (actually 2 a.m. was the usual time under Stalin)
 3) slave labor camps whose only purpose is working people to death in 
 horrrible ways. Kolyma is the Soviet Auschwitz.
 4) family arrests and also friends and acquaintances; disappearances;
 5) spies within families (easier to do than you think); schools, work 
 places, churches (including priests); hospitals,  etc. Some of these spy 
 reports are husband spying on wife and vice versa; parents on children and 
 vice versa; friends on each other; school teachers on students in and out of 
 school;
 
 The Baha'i Faith rivals these indeed! If such ignorance wasn't so tragic, 
 it would be funny.
 
 Ian Kluge
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
On what basis do they believe there haven't been more recent revelations?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 12:58, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Because Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah has given us God's most recent 
 revelation.
 On 04/18/2013 12:16 PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 The articles show the relationship between religion and morality and ethics.
 
 Why should non- Bahai's take Baha'i morality and ethics over all else.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_in_religion
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 11:37, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 ics.Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New 
 Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, 
 Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and 
 Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal 
 Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM 
 University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, 
 Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various 
 Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements are 
 good examples to use. 
 
 I assume everyone here is familiar with Kohlberg and his six, or seven, 
 stages of moral development and don't need to explain pre-conventional, 
 conventional, and post-conventional moralities. Conventional morality tends 
 to make people think under the lines of malum prohibitum or mala prohibita, 
 evil because it's prohibited. Post conventional morality tends to make 
 people think in terms of malum in se or mala in se, evil in and of itself. 
 Most of the above religions above are completely post conventional. I guess 
 the Baha'i Faith is post conventional, but the Kitab-I-Aqdas does tend to 
 be used as a tool of conventional rather than post conventional morality. I 
 would rather use other examples of the above. Unitarian Universalism is a 
 prime example with no laws at all, but various principles. Wicca is another 
 example with the Wiccan Rede as a good summary of post conventional 
 morality as well as the Charge of the Goddess. Scientology and the Way to 
 Happiness also describe morality in this way as well. Nichiren Buddhism and 
 its Diamond Chalice Precept is another good example of post conventional 
 morality. The parables of the Lotus Sutra are also used as guidelines of 
 ethical and moral principles. Mahayana Buddhism in general has favored 
 non-aggression based compassion in, over, and above all things. This has 
 lead to a history of compassion leading people to do prohibited things 
 which aren't evil in themselves, but were prohibited because compassion 
 dictated it. Drinking alcohol, having sex, eating animal products, wearing 
 animal products, etc. can be motivated by compassion and bring people 
 closer to enlightenment as illustrated in the Buddhism section of the books 
 section of the Religion and Sexuality page on Wikipedia. I remember looking 
 at the previews on Amazon of the two books on Sex in Zen and Buddhism in 
 general as well, especially Zen and Vajrayana.   The above 
 position has been known as the standard Tantra position.
 
 Also, no I don't align myself with the the Left or the Right most of the 
 time because my fiscal responsibility puts me at odds with the Left and my 
 social tolerance puts me at odds with the Right. 
 
 This reminds me of a recent debate on Abby Martin, because I watch RT News. 
 She had three representatives of various ideologies on her show to debate. 
 Two representatives of the Libertarian Left and one representative of the 
 Libertarian Right. Actually, they wound up agreeing on a whole bunch of 
 points. 
 
 A side note is that the Left wing media tends to fire anyone who questions 
 Authoritarianism. Once that happens, Right wing media picks them up and 
 hires them. Just think of all the people who were fired from CNN, NBC, NPR, 
 or whatever other media outlet for ideological reasons and now work for 
 Fox. Noam Chomsky, a noted Left Libertarian, has said that original only 
 Right wing publishers were willing to publish his works. 
 
 There is also the rise of a pro-LGBT conservatism as seen by the likes of

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both ie archy 
and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or Paleoconservative.

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On Apr 18, 2013, at 11:41, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 To put it in Brian Patrick Mitchell terms, which he views as better than the 
 system were using. If I Amy go out on a limb and categorize you views as 
 either Paleo-libertarian or Paleo-conservative. You're definitely Paleo, but 
 it's hard to specify which. 
 
 In 2006, while working as the Washington bureau chief of Investor’s Business 
 Daily, Mitchell published Eight Ways to Run the Country: A New and Revealing 
 Look at Left and Right (ISBN 0275993582), improving upon a theory of 
 political difference first presented by Mitchell in the short-lived journal 
 Theologies  Moral Concerns in 1995.[2] Eight Ways analyzes modern American 
 political perspectives according to their regard for kratos (defined as the 
 use of force) and archē or “archy” (defined as the recognition of rank). 
 Mitchell rooted his distinction of archy and kratos in the West's historical 
 experience of church and state, crediting the collapse of the Christian 
 consensus on church and state with the appearance of four main divergent 
 traditions in Western political thought:
 republican constitutionalism = pro archy, anti kratos
 libertarian individualism = anti archy, anti kratos
 democratic progressivism = anti archy, pro kratos
 plutocratic nationalism = pro archy, pro kratos
 Mitchell charts these traditions graphically using a vertical axis as a scale 
 of kratos/akrateia and a horizontal axis as a scale ofarchy/anarchy. He 
 places democratic progressivism in the lower left, plutocratic nationalism in 
 the lower right, republication constitutionalism in the upper right, and 
 libertarian individualism in the upper left. The political left is therefore 
 distinguished by its rejection of archy, while the political right is 
 distinguished by its acceptance of archy.
 For Mitchell, anarchy is not the absence of government but the rejection of 
 rank. Thus there can be both anti-government anarchists(Mitchell’s 
 “libertarian individualists”) and pro-government anarchists (Mitchell's 
 “democratic progressives,” who favor the use of government force against 
 social hierarchies such as patriarchy). Mitchell also distinguishes between 
 left-wing anarchists and right-wing anarchists, whom Mitchell renames 
 “akratists” for their opposition to the government’s use of force.
 In addition to the four main traditions, Mitchell identifies eight distinct 
 political perspectives represented in contemporary American politics:
 communitarian = ambivalent toward archy, pro kratos
 progressive = anti archy, pro kratos (democratic progressivism)
 radical = anti archy, ambivalent toward kratos
 individualist = anti archy, anti kratos (libertarian individualism)
 paleolibertarian = ambivalent toward archy, anti kratos
 paleoconservative = pro archy, anti kratos (republican constitutionalism)
 theoconservative = pro archy, ambivalent toward kratos
 neoconservative = pro archy, pro kratos (plutocratic nationalism)
 A potential ninth perspective, in the midst of the eight, is populism, which 
 Mitchell says is vaguely defined and situation dependent, having no fixed 
 character other than opposition to the prevailing power.
 Eight Ways has been used to teach political theory at Yale University.[3] It 
 was largely ignored by the political mainstream but received favorable 
 reviews from libertarians and paleoconservatives, who welcomed the attention 
 and the critique.[4][5] Anthony Gregory of theIndependent Institute named 
 Eight Ways the best explanation of the political spectrum, saying it makes 
 sense of all the major mysteries.[6]
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 17, 2013, at 16:46, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 While the libertarian right has gained prominence, the right is still 
 dominated by the authoritarians.
 
 I consider Obama a defacto member, just not as authoritarian or right as the 
 Republicans.
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:15 50PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Also, yes. Don C, I have noticed the Left has been authoritarian and the 
 Right libertarian. 
 
 
 -
 Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

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Reparative therapy is seen as pseudoscience now.

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On Apr 8, 2013, at 13:47, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 
 I wonder if science have discovered some kind of predisposition (genetic 
 mutation)? I believe the bahá'í writings don't contemplate this scenario, 
 our writings say that this is a psicological problem (debility).
 
 Actually Hasan, our Writings don't say that. They just say that homosexual 
 behavior is forbidden. Shoghi Effendi advised homosexuals to seek medical 
 help but he doesn't speculate as to whether or not it is a psychological 
 disorder, only that he believed it was treatable. 
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 If humans are supposed to be heterosexual, as the Baha'i Writings say, why 
 are so many animals homosexual?  Did God intend many animals to be so?  If 
 He did then God is okay with homosexual animals but not humans, which I'd 
 like an explanation for.  Here is the Wikipedia article on homosexuality in 
 animals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
 

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Re: Against nature...

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Buddhist states aren't oppressive with religious rules. Theraveda Buddhism and 
Vajrayana Buddhism is the state religion in various countries in South Asia, 
Southeast Asia, East Asia, and some parts of Russia.

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On Apr 17, 2013, at 12:28, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Would non-Bahais be bound by Baha'i laws or not?
 
 Dear Stephen, 
 
 I don't think we can say for sure but if we use Islam as the precedence, 
 non-Muslims in a Muslim state were generally expected to abide by the laws of 
 their own religion. For instance, while Muslims were not allowed to drink 
 alcohol, Christians and Jews could both produce and imbibe it. 
 
 Why should non-Bahais care about Baha'i laws?
 
 I guess you'll have to ask the non-Baha'is that question. ;-} In my view they 
 shouldn't unless they are considering becoming Baha'is or we start acting 
 like we are going to impose our laws on them against their will.  
 
 How should public policy be decided in current societies whether Jewish, 
 Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc?
 
 Baha'is are rather fond of consultation when it comes to setting policy. 
 
 warmest, Susan  

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Re: Against nature...

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You forgot to add a link to the list of all the species of animals in which 
homosexual behavior has been observed.

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On Apr 5, 2013, at 23:26, David Regal david.re...@yahoo.com wrote:

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 If humans are supposed to be heterosexual, as the Baha'i Writings say, why 
 are so many animals homosexual?  Did God intend many animals to be so?  If He 
 did then God is okay with homosexual animals but not humans, which I'd like 
 an explanation for.  Here is the Wikipedia article on homosexuality in 
 animals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

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Re: Against nature...

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You could add Biblical Israel as a Jewish example.

Despite the fact that Thailand is an extremely devout Thereveda Buddhist 
country, it is known internationally for the sex industry worldwide. The whole 
of Southeast Asia is in the same boat in this regard, but Thailand is the most 
famous for it. Vietnam is Mahayana instead of Theraveda. Given the stereotypes 
people have about what a devout religious society is, people wouldn't expect 
Thailand and Southeast Asia or any other Buddhist country to have a thriving 
sex industry. Actually, Buddhists don't see it as inconsistent with Buddhism.

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On Apr 17, 2013, at 14:49, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Many cultures attempt to codify their prescriptions concerning individual 
 sexual behaviors. Such codifications are frequently enacted as laws, 
 extending their application beyond the culture to other cultures under the 
 purview of the laws, including dissenters.
 Most of the Islamic world has strict rules enforced with sometimes violent 
 punishments to enforce Islamic moral codes, including sexual morality on 
 their citizens, and impose it on non-Muslims living within their societies. 
 The same was true of various European Christian regimes at some stages in 
 history, and some contemporary Christians support restrictions on the private 
 expression of sexuality outside of marriage, ranging from prohibitions of 
 prostitution to restrictions on oral sex and sodomy.
 The Wikipedia links is below, but why would society base it's mores on the 
 standards of a religion that makes up 0.1% of the world's population?
 Susan, while conservatives tend to make claims like that all the time, no 
 actual evidence has shown that to be true. Instead, two parent households 
 regardless of gender is the ideal home according to the data. Interpreting 
 the data any other way is a non sequitur.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_sexuality
 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 17, 2013, at 13:51, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 
 Susan, have you read the earlier e-mail in this thread. Don C thinks 
 society should have a zero tolerance policy towards non-heterosexuality. No 
 marriage, no civil unions, no domestic partnership, no adoption, no 
 parental rights, etc. He was complaining society gives them too many rights 
 and blames it on secular liberalism. 
 
 I'm sorry, but I read all of Don's posts and I didn't read a single one 
 which stated that gays should have no legal rights or be afforded any 
 tolerance. That would be diametrically opposed to our own NSAs recent letter 
 on this issue.  But I'll let him say for himself whether he thinks you have 
 accurately represented his views. But please show me exactly where Don said 
 that a gay parent should lose all of their parental rights? As far as 
 'adoption' goes, I don't think there is any such thing as a 'right' to 
 adoption. Adoptions should be for the benefit of the child, period. And I 
 would agree with Don that children are better off with a mother and a 
 father. But there are cases, especially with hard-to-place children, where a 
 single parent or homosexual couple might be the best alternative to foster 
 care. For instance, I know of one gay couple that adopted a five 
 African-American siblings. No way would those kids have been kept together 
 under any other circumstance. In that case, keeping the brothers and sisters 
  together ought to take precedence over not providing them with both a 
 mother and a father. . 

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Re: Against nature...

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Gary, maybe you have schizophrenia or disorganized thinking if you can't 
recognize your own cognitive dissonance?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:41, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hmmm...Logic is also not on our list of world religions. Have you ever been 
 diagnosed with OCD?
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_disorder
 It's a treatable disorder.
  
 GS
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 12:19 pm
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Like just assuming since Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, 
 Bahai Faith, Zoroastrianism, and Bayaniism are the only world religions 
 mentioned in the Baha'i Writings, they're the only world religions that 
 exist. 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:08, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I generously bless people. It's what I do. Also, I'm trained in logic and 
 can notify people when they're using fallacies. Also, I'm an ex non dis 
 enrolled Baha'i who left because of the logical inconsistencies.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:00, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 ...And yet you so often bless us with your comments. Why are we so blessed?
  
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Actually I only believe in Unitarian Universalism, Mahayana Nichiren 
 Buddhism, Religious Humanism, as my survey results if asked by a survey.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:04, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to study everything and commit to nothing. This can be a path to 
 insanity. I hope that is not your fate.
 On 04/18/2013 11:37 AM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, 
 New Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World 
 Severs, Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church 
 Universal and Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, 
 Agni Yoga, Liberal Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The 
 Hearts Center, I AM University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, 
 Neo-Gnosticism, Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku 
 no Kagaku, various Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New 
 Religious Movements are good examples to use. 
  remainder deleted 
 
 -- 
 
 Mike and Dede Moum
 Des Moines, Iowa
 Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org
 Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
This included all the best Wikipedia articles on religious views on this issue.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2013, at 12:23, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

I forgot to add the above links.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2013, at 12:15, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_same-sex_marriage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_religious_groups
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_denominations_in_Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT-affirming_Christian_denominations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LGBT-related_organizations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism_and_LGBT_topics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organizations_that_support_same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_and_religion_topics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_homosexuality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenderism_and_religion

Also, I have a question about non-Bahais in a Bahai society, if such a thing
will exist given the monopolistic stranglehold just four religions virtually
have on the world religious market.

Would non-Bahais be bound by Baha'i laws or not?

Why should non-Bahais care about Baha'i laws?

How should public policy be decided in current societies whether Jewish,
Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 16, 2013, at 17:10, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Stephen seems to want desperately to flush us out of the underbrush on the
issue of all things LGBT. Clearly, the public Baha’i rules about gayness
are at odds with the customs of our (western) society in much the same way
that Baha’i rules concerning alcoholic beverages are at odds with the
customs of our society. They drink; we are prohibited from drinking. We are
prohibited from doing what gay folks do. Personally, I would way rather
have a drink of something strong than do what gay folks do, but that’s just
me. I was born a heterosexual and I know that no one born with my
particular preferences would never be inclined to choose to pursue same-sex
physical/romantic relationships. Personally, I would be leery of
encouraging a gay person or a devoted aficionado of microbreweries to
enroll as a Baha’i, (no dang it; I am not comparing homosexuality to
alcoholism; I am comparing it to regular social drinking!) regardless of
their beliefs or other sterling qualities. Folks with full knowledge of the
rules who do enroll as Baha’is despite their incompatible preferences (how
many of us can truthfully deny a predilection for back-biting?) have a
ready-made spiritual battle to fight.

Some laws are specifically abrogated; others just fall into desuetude as
they become unhelpful and create barriers to inclusion and the salvation of
the masses. Obdurate repudiation of desuetude turns great religions into
tiny separatist cults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude

But who knows?

GS
-Original Message-
From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 11:15 am
Subject: Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Opps, needed to correct one of the links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenderism_and_religion

The other redirected to this one anyways.

Don, what if the influence of all secular progressivism went away, what
would society look like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

What if America or whatever else society you want to insert instead, became
desecularized...

Sent

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Sen, so actually none of the Baha'i laws may ever be enforced?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2013, at 2:19, Sen McGlinn senmcgl...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 not enforcing can be the best thing:
 
 In the Taurat there are ten commandments concerning the murderer. Is it 
 possible to carry these out? Can these ten ordinances, concerning the 
 treatment of murderers, be enforced? 
 Modern times are such that even the question of capital punishment - - 
 the one form which some nations have decided to enforce in relation to a 
 murderer - - is a mooted question. Wise men are consulting as to its 
 feasibility or otherwise. 
  So everything that is valid is only valid for the time being. The 
 exigency of that time demanded that if a man committed theft to the extent of 
 a dollar they would chop off his hand, but now you cannot cut off a man's 
 hand for a thousand dollars. You cannot do it; it is impossible. This is 
 true, for it was useful for that time, but things are useful in accordance 
 with the exigencies of the time.  Time changes, and when time changes the 
 laws have to change. But remember, these are not of importance; they are the 
 accidentals of religion. 
 
 (Talk at the Temple Emanuel, in Star of the West Vol. 3, No. 13, p. 3, 
 corresponds to The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 365. There are notes 
 in Mahmud’s diary from p 299 of vol 1, which closely reflect the Star of the 
 West version)
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Sounds like an extremely real possibility. It may even go extinct within the 
next seventy years.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 16, 2013, at 19:16, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Baha'u'llah dicusses a good example of desuetude in Iqan par 92 (old p. 85) 
 concerning the Jews and the death penalty for adultery. The rabbis were 
 worried that their people would disappear due to enforcing the letter of the 
 law. At this point it is easy to imagine (!) an analogous situation where, 
 within a generation or two, in North America, it is almost impossible to 
 teach the faith and difficult even to retain believers, due to the continued 
 enforcement and defense of the principle that gay people are not welcome to 
 live comfortably and express their preferences openly in the Baha'i 
 community.  
  
 But is that suggestion a vain imagining? Very possibly!
  
 GS
 -Original Message-
 From: Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 3:18 pm
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Pardon me. The Deuteronomy reference emphatically should include Deuteronomy 
 chapter 20, along with 21 and 22. Sorry.
  
 GS
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 3:11 pm
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Stephen seems to want desperately to flush us out of the underbrush on the 
 issue of all things LGBT. Clearly, the public Baha’i rules about gayness are 
 at odds with the customs of our (western) society in much the same way that  
 Baha’i rules concerning alcoholic beverages are at odds with the customs of 
 our society. They drink; we are prohibited from drinking. We are prohibited 
 from doing what gay folks do. Personally, I would way rather have a drink of 
 something strong than do what gay folks do, but that’s just me. I was born a 
 heterosexual and I know that no one born with my particular preferences would 
 never be inclined to choose to pursue same-sex physical/romantic 
 relationships. Personally, I would be leery of encouraging a gay person or a 
 devoted aficionado of microbreweries to enroll as a Baha’i, (no dang it; I am 
 not comparing homosexuality to alcoholism; I am comparing it to regular 
 social drinking!) regardless of their beliefs or other sterling qualities. 
 Folks with full knowledge of the rules who do enroll as Baha’is despite their 
 incompatible preferences (how many of us can truthfully deny a predilection 
 for back-biting?) have a ready-made spiritual battle to fight.
  
 Having said all that, the history of religions is replete with examples of 
 the power of desuetude. Meditate on the laws of Deuteronomy chapters 21 and 
 22. Ponder deeply the issues of Acts 4:32 – 5:13. Remember fondly Matthew 
 19:3 – 12 and all the fun the churches have had down through the centuries 
 with issues of marriage and divorce.
  
 Some laws are specifically abrogated; others just fall into desuetude as they 
 become unhelpful and create barriers to inclusion and the salvation of the 
 masses. Obdurate repudiation of desuetude turns great religions into tiny 
 separatist cults.
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude
  
 But perhaps all of that is ancient history and irrelevant in the New Order. 
 Perhaps the law is engraved in stone until the next Manifestation. I don’t 
 know. I will watch from the next world with mild curiosity about how our 
 great-great grandchildren work it all out. But I suspect not too many 
 generations will pass before Baha’is think about homosexuality in much the 
 same way that Catholics think about contraception.  
  
 But who knows?
  
 GS 
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 11:15 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Opps, needed to correct one of the links.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenderism_and_religion
 
 The other redirected to this one anyways.
 
 Don, what if the influence of all secular progressivism went away, what would 
 society look like?
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism
 
 What if America or whatever else society you want to insert instead, became 
 desecularized...
 
 And became a Unitarian Universalists society?
 A Neo Druidist society?
 A Wiccan society?
 A Raëlian society?
 An Eckist society?
 A Liberal Hindu society?
 A Liberal Mahayana Buddhist society?
 A Liberal Muslim society?
 A Liberal Jewish society?
 A Liberal Christian society?
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 15, 2013, at 16:10, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserve
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_same-sex_marriage
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I personally am a virgin an have considered being a lifelong celibate,
especially useful if I wanted to become a priest or monk. I don't have clear
life ambitions. I consider relationships, sexual or celibate, to be too
fettering.

I'm pansexual, omnisexual, bisexual, or whatever term is more accurate. This
isn't the reason I'm an ex Baha'i or even one of them.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 16, 2013, at 17:10, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desuetude

But who knows?

GS
-Original Message-
From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 11:15 am
Subject: Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Opps, needed to correct one of the links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenderism_and_religion

The other redirected to this one anyways.

Don, what if the influence of all secular progressivism went away, what would
society look like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian_Universalism

What if America or whatever else society you want to insert instead, became
desecularized...

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 15, 2013, at 16:10, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

Don, you seem to think its only because of secularism that everyone isn't on
the same page you?
Read all the above Wikipedia articles on the various religious and
theological viewpoints.

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Authoritarianism is more of a mindset than actual practices. Those practices 
are symptoms of authoritarianism rather than authoritarianism itself. If a 
shadow government or government in exile, it authoritarian if it has such a 
mindset, even if it can't do any of the below due to lack of power.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 15:51, Ian Kluge iankl...@netbistro.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Stephen:
 
 Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration in action
 rivals North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places in
 terms of totalitarianism.
 
 Stephen, I come from a family of refugees from Eastern Europe some of whom 
 survived Hitler and Stalin. You haven't got a blessed clue of what you're 
 talking about with this comparison. I suggest you get off Wikipedia and read 
 some serious history books. I will be happy to provide you with a reading 
 list to cure your lamentable ignorance.
 
 Which of the following techniques has the Baha'i Faith used?
 
 1) physical violence, murder and maiming, physical torture: teeth pulling (no 
 novacaine); testicle crushing; nipple ripping; dental work (no novacaine); 
 anal rape with truncheons; fingernail pulling; eye gouging; electrodes to 
 genitalia   . .  to name just a few.
 2) midnight arrests (actually 2 a.m. was the usual time under Stalin)
 3) slave labor camps whose only purpose is working people to death in 
 horrrible ways. Kolyma is the Soviet Auschwitz.
 4) family arrests and also friends and acquaintances; disappearances;
 5) spies within families (easier to do than you think); schools, work places, 
 churches (including priests); hospitals,  etc. Some of these spy reports are 
 husband spying on wife and vice versa; parents on children and vice versa; 
 friends on each other; school teachers on students in and out of school;
 
 The Baha'i Faith rivals these indeed! If such ignorance wasn't so tragic, 
 it would be funny.
 
 Ian Kluge
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Because it's shakubuku for me to sever your attachments to incorrect views in 
favor of correct views.

http://www.nst.org/

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:00, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 ...And yet you so often bless us with your comments. Why are we so blessed?
  
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Actually I only believe in Unitarian Universalism, Mahayana Nichiren 
 Buddhism, Religious Humanism, as my survey results if asked by a survey.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:04, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to study everything and commit to nothing. This can be a path to 
 insanity. I hope that is not your fate.
 On 04/18/2013 11:37 AM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth   century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New 
 Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, 
 Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and 
 Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal 
 Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM 
 University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga,   
 Neo-Gnosticism, Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no 
 Kagaku, various Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New 
 Religious Movements are good examples to use. 
  remainder deleted 
 
 -- 
 
 Mike and Dede Moum
 Des Moines, Iowa
 Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org
 Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Consultation needs experts, not necessarily from Wikipedia.

Also, when I refer to consultation, I mean all consultation, not just the 
Baha'i version.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2013, at 15:25, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
  We rarely involve the experts from wikipedia in our consultations. 
 
 I presume you are being tongue and cheek here. 

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I'm one such still enrolled ex Baha'i. I think the Baha'i Faith will ultimately 
fail to inability to retain believers. The math adds up to it eventually 
becoming extinct.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:39, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 This become especially problematic when you look at Baha'i demographics. Only 
 slightly more gross enrollments than deaths happen each month. I say gross 
 because net is way lower. Official dis enrollments and dis enrollment which 
 doesn't happen on paper do to just leaving the faith without dis enrollment 
 leaves mathematically a faith that bleeds believers. This also leaves the 
 number of Baha'i problematic because of ex-Baha'is who are still technically 
 enrolled as Baha'is and are still counted as inactive rather than ex. 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:14, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 That really doesn't answer the question. Non-Baha'is won't just accept that 
 statement as factual because Baha'is believe it. A lot of Baha'is have 
 magical thinking that somehow non-Baha'is will naturally be drawn to it.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 12:58, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Because Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah has given us God's most recent 
 revelation.
 On 04/18/2013 12:16 PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 The articles show the relationship between religion and morality and 
 ethics.
 
 Why should non- Bahai's take Baha'i morality and ethics over all else.
 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morality_and_religion
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_in_religion
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 11:37, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 ics.Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, 
 New Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World 
 Severs, Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church 
 Universal and Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, 
 Agni Yoga, Liberal Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The 
 Hearts Center, I AM University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, 
 Neo-Gnosticism, Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku 
 no Kagaku, various Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New 
 Religious Movements are good examples to use. 
 
 I assume everyone here is familiar with Kohlberg and his six, or seven, 
 stages of moral development and don't need to explain pre-conventional, 
 conventional, and post-conventional moralities. Conventional morality 
 tends to make people think under the lines of malum prohibitum or mala 
 prohibita, evil because it's prohibited. Post conventional morality tends 
 to make people think in terms of malum in se or mala in se, evil in and 
 of itself. Most of the above religions above are completely post 
 conventional. I guess the Baha'i Faith is post conventional, but the 
 Kitab-I-Aqdas does tend to be used as a tool of conventional rather than 
 post conventional morality. I would rather use other examples of the 
 above. Unitarian Universalism is a prime example with no laws at all, but 
 various principles. Wicca is another example with the Wiccan Rede as a 
 good summary of post conventional morality as well as the Charge of the 
 Goddess. Scientology and the Way to Happiness also describe morality in 
 this way as well. Nichiren Buddhism and its Diamond Chalice Precept is 
 another good example of post conventional morality. The parables of the 
 Lotus Sutra are also used as guidelines of ethical and moral principles. 
 Mahayana Buddhism in general has favored non-aggression based compassion 
 in, over, and above all things. This has lead to a history of compassion 
 leading people to do prohibited things which aren't evil in themselves, 
 but were prohibited because compassion dictated it. Drinking alcohol, 
 having sex, eating animal products, wearing animal products, etc. can be 
 motivated by compassion and bring people closer to enlightenment as 
 illustrated in the Buddhism section of the books section of the Religion 
 and Sexuality page on Wikipedia. I remember looking at the previews on 
 Amazon of the two books on Sex in Zen and Buddhism in general as well, 
 especially Zen and Vajrayana. The

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
That reminds me political compass rated all candidates including third party 
ones on their Political Compass chart. Mitt Romney and Barack Obama had 
identical spot on the grid. Virgil Goode was more Authoritarian and Right than 
both. Gary Johnson and Rocky Anderson made up the Libertarian Right. Jill Stein 
and Stewart Alexander made up the Libertarian Left. To get outside of the 
Authoritarian Right, one must step outside the two party system. The 
Constitution Party is a rare third party that is part of the Authoritarian 
Right. The other third parties of note: Justice Party and Libertarian Party are 
Libertarian Right while the Green Party is Libertarian Left. 

Based on Mark Foster (a Baha'i) and his website, he's a self professed member 
of the Authoritarian Left. He believe the Baha'i Faith mandates the government 
to grow and manage lots of stuff. His Unitive Socialism is both very 
Authoritarian and very Left. He is 0-20% on both sides of the Nolan Chart. He 
believe government should decide everything for people.

Don C, you probably think America needs a Green New Deal? I don't align myself 
with the Greens, but know people who do.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2013, at 16:46, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 While the libertarian right has gained prominence, the right is still 
 dominated by the authoritarians.
 
 I consider Obama a defacto member, just not as authoritarian or right as the 
 Republicans.
 
 Don C
 
 On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:15 50PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 
 Also, yes. Don C, I have noticed the Left has been authoritarian and the 
 Right libertarian. 
 
 
 -
 Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Does the method of consultation intrinsically involve scripture? Or just Baha'i 
consultation?

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 12:53, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Things
 like adoption and marriage are private contracts and the government has no
 reason to interfere is the standard Libertarian Right argument.
 
 I would largely agree with that except that in the case of adoption
 the 'contract' involves a party unable to speak up for themselves,
 namely the child.
 
 Also, what I've read from various blogs like
 Karen Bacquet's blogs and various other is that the ideal of Baha'i
 Administration and the reality of Baha'i Administration are two separate
 things. Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration in action
 rivals North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such places in
 terms of totalitarianism.
 
 If you use disgruntled ex-Baha'is as your source of information that
 is what you are going to hear. However, if you had actually interacted
 with the Baha'i community in real life rather than just on the
 internet I think you would have found out differently.
 
 Interesting side note, what if consultation resulted in the people involved
 accepting anything forbidden by the Kitab-I-Aqdas?
 
 Consultation does not trump the Word of God. If it did, there would be
 no need for revelation.
 
 Also, I find your description of Administrators to be not consistent with
 the facts of how Administrators actually behave.
 
 And you know what about this from personal experience. Nothing.
 
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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I have been diagnosed with Aspergers actually recently.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:41, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Hmmm...Logic is also not on our list of world religions. Have you ever been 
 diagnosed with OCD?
  
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive%E2%80%93compulsive_disorder
 It's a treatable disorder.
  
 GS
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 12:19 pm
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Like just assuming since Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, 
 Bahai Faith, Zoroastrianism, and Bayaniism are the only world religions 
 mentioned in the Baha'i Writings, they're the only world religions that 
 exist. 
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:08, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I generously bless people. It's what I do. Also, I'm trained in logic and 
 can notify people when they're using fallacies. Also, I'm an ex non dis 
 enrolled Baha'i who left because of the logical inconsistencies.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:00, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 ...And yet you so often bless us with your comments. Why are we so blessed?
  
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Actually I only believe in Unitarian Universalism, Mahayana Nichiren 
 Buddhism, Religious Humanism, as my survey results if asked by a survey.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:04, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to study everything and commit to nothing. This can be a path to 
 insanity. I hope that is not your fate.
 On 04/18/2013 11:37 AM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, 
 New Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World 
 Severs, Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church 
 Universal and Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, 
 Agni Yoga, Liberal Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The 
 Hearts Center, I AM University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, 
 Neo-Gnosticism, Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku 
 no Kagaku, various Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New 
 Religious Movements are good examples to use. 
  remainder deleted 
 
 -- 
 
 Mike and Dede Moum
 Des Moines, Iowa
 Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org
 Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 People can use consultation aka Athenian Democracy without the Baha'i Faith
 or any particular religion at all or even religion itself.

And people can consult without any religion either. What's your point?

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Susan, let's try this. On your next trip to Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Brunei,
 Kuwait, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen, etc. See if you can legally buy
 and drink alcohol there. Then, try and search the black market for illegal
 alcohol if you need to. While you don't have to actually drink the alcohol
 once you get it, but you need to see which one of us is correct.

You do realize these aren't the only Islamic countries in the world?

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I'm referring to beliefs not practices.

Really? And what beliefs do we share with the Fascists?

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Abby Martin's show is Breaking The Set for those who wanted to know.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 11:37, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their relationship 
 to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, Seicho- 
 No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian Universalism, 
 Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, Neo-Druidry or 
 Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various Japanese Shinshukyo, 
 Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious Humanism, Religious 
 Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New Age Movement, 
 Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, Arcane School, I 
 AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and Triumphant, The 
 Summit Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal Catholic Church, 
 The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM University, White Eagle 
 Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, Unarius Academy of Science, 
 Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various Nichiren Buddhism lay 
 movements, and many other New Religious Movements are good examples to use. 
 
 I assume everyone here is familiar with Kohlberg and his six, or seven, 
 stages of moral development and don't need to explain pre-conventional, 
 conventional, and post-conventional moralities. Conventional morality tends 
 to make people think under the lines of malum prohibitum or mala prohibita, 
 evil because it's prohibited. Post conventional morality tends to make people 
 think in terms of malum in se or mala in se, evil in and of itself. Most of 
 the above religions above are completely post conventional. I guess the 
 Baha'i Faith is post conventional, but the Kitab-I-Aqdas does tend to be used 
 as a tool of conventional rather than post conventional morality. I would 
 rather use other examples of the above. Unitarian Universalism is a prime 
 example with no laws at all, but various principles. Wicca is another example 
 with the Wiccan Rede as a good summary of post conventional morality as well 
 as the Charge of the Goddess. Scientology and the Way to Happiness also 
 describe morality in this way as well. Nichiren Buddhism and its Diamond 
 Chalice Precept is another good example of post conventional morality. The 
 parables of the Lotus Sutra are also used as guidelines of ethical and moral 
 principles. Mahayana Buddhism in general has favored non-aggression based 
 compassion in, over, and above all things. This has lead to a history of 
 compassion leading people to do prohibited things which aren't evil in 
 themselves, but were prohibited because compassion dictated it. Drinking 
 alcohol, having sex, eating animal products, wearing animal products, etc. 
 can be motivated by compassion and bring people closer to enlightenment as 
 illustrated in the Buddhism section of the books section of the Religion and 
 Sexuality page on Wikipedia. I remember looking at the previews on Amazon of 
 the two books on Sex in Zen and Buddhism in general as well, especially Zen 
 and Vajrayana. The above position has been known as the standard Tantra 
 position.
 
 Also, no I don't align myself with the the Left or the Right most of the time 
 because my fiscal responsibility puts me at odds with the Left and my social 
 tolerance puts me at odds with the Right. 
 
 This reminds me of a recent debate on Abby Martin, because I watch RT News. 
 She had three representatives of various ideologies on her show to debate. 
 Two representatives of the Libertarian Left and one representative of the 
 Libertarian Right. Actually, they wound up agreeing on a whole bunch of 
 points. 
 
 A side note is that the Left wing media tends to fire anyone who questions 
 Authoritarianism. Once that happens, Right wing media picks them up and hires 
 them. Just think of all the people who were fired from CNN, NBC, NPR, or 
 whatever other media outlet for ideological reasons and now work for Fox. 
 Noam Chomsky, a noted Left Libertarian, has said that original only Right 
 wing publishers were willing to publish his works. 
 
 There is also the rise of a pro-LGBT conservatism as seen by the likes of 
 David Cameron in Great Britain. They favor LGBT rights, but for different 
 reasons than the Authoritarian Left. The Libertarian Right questions the 
 government's authority to centrally plan society and the economy. Marriage 
 privatization is seen as ideal. The Libertarian Right, libertarians and 
 conservatives, oppose aggression as opposed to the Authoritarian Left who has 
 no qualms about using aggression as a means to all of its ends. Look up all 
 the organizations that support same sex marriage in the United States on 
 Wikipedia. Notice that depending

Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
How will the punishments in the Aqdas get carried out if you that's true? If no 
one is in charge how will people get executed, exiled, imprisioned, fined, etc? 

The Aqdas looks like it presupposes a kind of authoritarianism you reject. 
Baha'i laws will be enforced because that's what it says. 

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 17, 2013, at 15:25, Don Calkins don59...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 on the contrary . . . .
 
 Like most Euro-Americans, you believe in some kind of authoritarianism in 
 which those in control pass laws to make people behave according to your 
 standards and then punish people who do not comply.  i reject that as an 
 efficient and effective means of administration.  
 
 Further, I do believe in a form of separation of church and state such that 
 Baha'i law will not be forced on non-Baha'is.
 
 What happens when Baha'is run the world?  First off, I reject the 
 terminology.  I don't believe Baha'is will ever be in charge in the sense 
 that governments are today.   When the Baha'i Commonwealth with the House of 
 Justice at its head comes into being, the entire idea of someone being in 
 charge will be seen as anachronistic.  
 
 How do I believe the Baha'i administration will come to power?  By default. 
  It will be recognized as the only effective administrative system that is 
 actually functioning.  You think this is impossible?  Look at what has 
 happened in parts of the world where the central government has collapsed and 
 fundamentalist Islam has been embraced by the populace, if only temporarily.  
 They were accepted because they provided stability and nobody else could.  in 
 a similar manner, parts of northern Italy were ruled by the Communist Party 
 for the the same reason.  You may not have liked their philosophy, but there 
 were relatively corruption free.  
 
 You and I Stephen have extremely different administrative philosophies.  Not 
 only am I a Baha'i, but I also have a libertarian left administrative 
 philosophy.  There are not very many other Baha'is in that category and even 
 fewer who have given any tho't as to how that philosophy informs the 
 functioning of the Baha'i Administration.  
 
 According to Baha'u'llah, this is not merely a new Dispensation, but a new 
 age, the Age of Maturity.  As such, what we are going thru' is the greatest 
 change to the functioning of human affairs since the mythic Time of Adam, 
 when the Culture Hero societies replaced the Mother Goddess societies.  The 
 Adamic Cycle can be seen as the equivalent of going thru' puberty.  We are 
 now embarking on our maturity and it is time for us to grow up and take 
 responsibility for our own affairs instead of waiting for mommy and daddy 
 (kings/gov'ts/administrators) to tell us what to do.  Rather, the new purpose 
 of administrators is to remind us, repeatedly and persistently if necessary, 
 what the proper principles should guide us.  Shoghi Effendi made reference to 
 this idea many years ago when he told local Assemblies to quit making up 
 rules to enforce on their members.  
 
 Another point - most leftist activists in the United States are 
 authoritarian, they seek power so they can make other people do things their 
 way.  Most leftist activists also define equality in terms of power; that is, 
 a group of people are only equal to the extent they have members who exercise 
 power.  That is the reason some people make a big deal out of there not being 
 any women on the House of Justice.  It is seen as having for its purpose the 
 exercise of power and if women are not allowed to participate, then they have 
 less power and are, therefore, not quite equal.  I reject that entire 
 argument.
 
 You may think I have avoided the topic or changed it. i have not.   What I 
 have done is shown how your entire argument is irrelevant.  
 
 Don C
 
 Susan, have you read the earlier e-mail in this thread. Don C thinks society 
 should have a zero tolerance policy towards non-heterosexuality. No 
 marriage, no civil unions, no domestic partnership, no adoption, no parental 
 rights, etc. He was complaining society gives them too many rights and 
 blames it on secular liberalism. 
 
 
 ---
 It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside.
 
 
 
 

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I don't commit to nothing, yet I study everything. Since I'm not omniscient I 
have to study everything. Isn't that what everyone is required to do?

Everyone is required to investigate the claims of all claimants. Baha'u'llah 
himself referred to this as the greater Covenant. Humanity is required to study 
all the claims of all claimants. Jews have to study all Jewish Messiah 
claimants. Christians have to study all Jesus Christ return claimants. Muslims 
have to study all Mahdi claimants. Zoroastrians have to study all Saoshyant 
claimants. Hindus have to study all Avatar claimants. Buddhists have to study 
all Buddha claimants. Bayaniis and Baha'is have to study all Manifestation 
claimants. 

The Greater Covenant required people to study all claimants extensively rather 
than off handedly reject even just one claimant. Baha'is implicitly do things 
which break the Greater Covenant by ignoring all claimants no specifically 
mentioned in their scriptures which leaves just a dozen or so Manifestations. 
Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhummad, Bab, and Baha'u'llah for Abrahamic 
religions. Krishna and Buddha for Dharmic religions. Zoroaster, Bab, and 
Baha'u'llah for Iranian religions. Bab and Baha'u'llah for New Religious 
Movements. The Baha'i Faith by these lists are the most recent among Abrahamic, 
Iranian, and New Religious Movements. Buddhism is still the most recent Dharmic 
religion. Progressive revelation is illustrated by the above four religious 
lineages of revelation.

Baha'is present their religion with: God wants everyone to study all claimants. 
Baha'u'llah is a claimant. Therefore, God wants everyone to study the Baha'i 
Faith. Hidden is that once they study the Baha'i Faith and accept it is that 
all studying is over. This doesn't really follow from first premise really. Why 
should non-Baha'is study the Baha'i Faith any more that Raëlism, Scientology, 
I- Kuan Tao, Adi Dam, Neo-Gnositicism, Ahmadiyya, Mormonism, Swedenborgianism, 
Sahaja Yoga, Kafaku no Kagaku, Happy Science, Meher Baba, Lingayatism, Hare 
Krishnas, Islam (due to Muhammad being the seal of prophets), etc.

Just look up Wikipiedia.

List of Messiah claimants
List of Avatar claimants
Kalki
List of Buddha claimants
Maitreya

Look up past revisions as well the current pages for potential deleted 
claimants.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:04, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to study everything and commit to nothing. This can be a path to 
 insanity. I hope that is not your fate.
 On 04/18/2013 11:37 AM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their relationship 
 to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, Seicho- 
 No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian Universalism, 
 Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, Neo-Druidry or 
 Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various Japanese 
 Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious Humanism, 
 Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New Age 
 Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, 
 Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and 
 Triumphant, The Summit   Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, 
 Liberal Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM 
 University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, Unarius 
 Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various Nichiren 
 Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements are good 
 examples to use. 
  remainder deleted 
 
 -- 
 
 Mike and Dede Moum
 Des Moines, Iowa
 Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org
 Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Baha'is say that people are supposed to use independent investigation of truth 
to verify or falsify the claims of each and every religious claimant, but 
hypocritically have the list of eight religions they acknowledge. 

They say that we only need to know of religions and religious figure 
specifically mentioned in scripture, but criticize people of other religions 
for taking the exact same position.

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:08, Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:

 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I generously bless people. It's what I do. Also, I'm trained in logic and can 
 notify people when they're using fallacies. Also, I'm an ex non dis enrolled 
 Baha'i who left because of the logical inconsistencies.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 14:00, Gary Selchert ebedeyn...@aol.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 ...And yet you so often bless us with your comments. Why are we so blessed?
  
  
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Stephen Kent Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com
 To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
 Sent: Thu, Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am
 Subject: Re: Against nature...
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Actually I only believe in Unitarian Universalism, Mahayana Nichiren 
 Buddhism, Religious Humanism, as my survey results if asked by a survey.
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
 On Apr 18, 2013, at 13:04, Mike Moum mike.m...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 You seem to study everything and commit to nothing. This can be a path to 
 insanity. I hope that is not your fate.
 On 04/18/2013 11:37 AM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:
 The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 I really should study the implications of this. New religious movements, 
 religions founded in the eighteenth century or later, and their 
 relationship to post conventional morality. 
 
 Baha'i Faith, Cao Dai, Cheondogyo, Tenrikyo, Wicca, Sekai Kyuseikyo, 
 Seicho- No-Ie, Rastafari Movement or Rastafarianism, Unitarian 
 Universalism, Scientology, Eckankar, Raëlian Movement or Raëlism, 
 Neo-Druidry or Neo-Druidism, Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Thelema, various 
 Japanese Shinshukyo, Discordianism, various UFO religions, Relgious 
 Humanism, Religious Existentialism, Ayyavazhi, Mormonism, New Thought, New 
 Age Movement, Contemporary Modern Neo Paganism, New Group of World Severs, 
 Arcane School, I AM Activity, The Bridge to Freedom, Church Universal and 
 Triumphant, The Summit Lighthouse, Share International, Agni Yoga, Liberal 
 Catholic Church, The Temple of the Presence, The Hearts Center, I AM 
 University, White Eagle Lodge, Adi Dam, Sahaja Yoga, Neo-Gnosticism, 
 Unarius Academy of Science, Konkokyo, Oomotokyo, Kafuku no Kagaku, various 
 Nichiren Buddhism lay movements, and many other New Religious Movements 
 are good examples to use. 
  remainder deleted 
 
 -- 
 
 Mike and Dede Moum
 Des Moines, Iowa
 Visit the Baha'i World at www.bahai.org
 Visit the US Baha'i website at www.us.bahai.org

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
 Susan, the point is that Islamists all over the world want to turn the world
 into one big Islamist Islamic Superstate of a Caliphate. Have you studied
 Islamism?

Of course, I've studied it. But it is a radical political movement
inside of Islam. It is not Islam itself. And it is not like they have
candidate for the Caliphate.

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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
if you think liberal means No drugs, no booze, no hanky-panky then I guess 
we're quite liberal.

Don C

On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:54 11PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

 Why isn't the Baha'i Faith a liberal religion?


-
Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.




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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
i consider myself an independent centrist.  I don't fit neatly into any 
category.  I am generally moderate, but have no compunction about adapting 
workable ideas from a variety of perspectives.  What is most important, as 
Baha'u'llah has indicated, are the principles.

Think not that I have revealed a mere code of laws . . . . .

Don C

On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:20 09PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

 Don, which one of the eight ways are you? I'm Individualist, anti both ie 
 archy and kratos. You are pro archy, anti kratos or Paleoconservative.
 



He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.




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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
There are militant fundamentalist Buddhists that have attacked members of 
other religions.

Don C


On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:17 46PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

 Buddhist states aren't oppressive with religious rules.


-
Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.




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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-22 Thread Ian Kluge


The Baha'i Studies Listserv


I'm referring to beliefs not practices


No, you are not referring to beliefs instead of practices. Your own words 
contradict you:



Actually the stories I've read of Baha'i Administration **in action**
**rivals** North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, and other such 
places in

terms of totalitarianism.


The phrase in action refers to practices. So, as a matter of fact, you 
were indeed saying that Baha'i practices rival[ed the actions of these 
horrible regimes. You have yet to present any evidence for such a claim.


Nor do Baha'i beliefs 'rival' those of these totalitarian regimes. Physical 
violence and terror are the sine qua non of all totalitarian regimes. Yet 
physical violence and terror are precisely what is forbidden in the Baha'i 
belief system when it comes to religious matters. In other words, a Baha'i 
totalitarian state is impossible.


Best wishes,

Ian Kluge 




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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
A Baha'i involved in consultation will use Scripture as an ethical standard.

BTW, in the mid 80's, I took a college credit mid management course that 
included a section on small group decision making.  It was a very good 
non-Baha'i description of consultation as described in our Writings.  

A similar method has been advocated by a recent Nobel Prize winner in economics 
for solving local problems.  

Don C

On Apr 20, 2013, at 3:17 57PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

 Does the method of consultation intrinsically involve scripture? Or just 
 Baha'i consultation?


---
It doesn't matter whether the sun shines if you never go outside.





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Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
They will be a minor part of their responsibilities.  This is going to prob be 
1500 years from now.  Think the difference in civilization btwn Augustine and 
now.

Don C

On Apr 20, 2013, at 2:39 08PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

 How will the punishments in the Aqdas get carried out if you that's true? If 
 no one is in charge how will people get executed, exiled, imprisioned, fined, 
 etc? 
 
 The Aqdas looks like it presupposes a kind of authoritarianism you reject. 
 Baha'i laws will be enforced because that's what it says. 


-
Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.




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Re: Against nature...

2013-04-22 Thread Ian Kluge

The Baha'i Studies Listserv
As the books Buddhist Warfare and Zen at War show, warfare and Buddhism are 
not as distant from each other as people tend to think.

Best,

Ian 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Don Calkins 
  To: Baha'i Studies 
  Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 12:24 PM
  Subject: Re: Against nature...

The Baha'i Studies ListservThere are militant fundamentalist Buddhists that 
have attacked members of other religions.

  Don C

  On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:17 46PM, Stephen Kent Gray wrote:

Buddhist states aren't oppressive with religious rules.

  -
  Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature.

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Re: Against nature...