Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi, So the subject of acceptability of screenshots of LibreOffice products taken on Windows is on today's SC confcall agenda, and I'll be there to listen/contribute to the discussion. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi, So I'd just like to bring this thread back to its real topic: platforms used to take screenshots for documentation, website images and marketing material. I updated the SC confcall agenda item, proposing this motion for discussion: Do we want to see screenshots taken indifferently from Windows, Mac and *nix used in LibreOffice documentation, website images and marketing material, to demonstrate our true cross-platform vocation? Or, do we want to impose preferred use of Linux/Gnome for screenshots and only accept screenshots from other OS's and GUIs when strictly necessary for particular cases? -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi :) I agree with Italo that the different teams have different requirements to achieve different results. Marketing and Website is tactical and dynamic, able to change fairly quickly. Sometimes being highly responsive, sometimes anticipating, sometimes getting far ahead of the game. Quick, attractive, flashy. I tend to think of knights and bishops. Mostly knights. Documentation is a lot more static and less easy to change. I tend to think of rooks and that castling manoeuvre to keep the king safe. Very different aims. People in Documentation tend to aim at being consistent within documentation. Marketing and the website often needs to show off the variety and diversity but that would just be confusing and distracting within documentation. Regards from Tom :) From: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 13:00:37 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team Hi, So I'd just like to bring this thread back to its real topic: platforms used to take screenshots for documentation, website images and marketing material. I updated the SC confcall agenda item, proposing this motion for discussion: Do we want to see screenshots taken indifferently from Windows, Mac and *nix used in LibreOffice documentation, website images and marketing material, to demonstrate our true cross-platform vocation? Or, do we want to impose preferred use of Linux/Gnome for screenshots and only accept screenshots from other OS's and GUIs when strictly necessary for particular cases? -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 15:31 +0200, Italo Vignoli wrote: Tom Davies wrote: I agree with Italo that the different teams have different requirements to achieve different results. As a member of the SC, I would personally avoid to have the SC discuss this issue (which, in my opinion, is not an issue). This is something that teams should discuss internally, and I see the SC get into the discussion only if something unreasonable happens. I will confirm and support this choice during the SC meeting. Hi Italo, I would like to agree with you on this point and also with Christoph's remarks, one email behind here, about the SC making only a suggestion, _if_ anything at all. Best wishes, Drew Jensen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi David, Am 13.07.2011 17:34, schrieb David Nelson: I noted your change to the agenda item: (Italo: I do not like the way this item for discussion has been worded, according to what has been discussed in the mailing list) I was invited to add an agenda item for discussion, and this is the subject that I'm hoping that the SC will clarify, which arises from multiple past discussions about Windows screenshots. Given the claimed legal sensitivity of the issue, and the claimed legal liability arising from use of Windows screenshots, I feel it is indeed a valid matter to put before the SC for some official guidance/decisions. I fully agree with Italo here. The discussion here at the list (and even you comment right now) is focused on the legal implications and what the SC would think of it. Your wording for the agenda item is much broader and requests a general decision on the screenshots independent from possible legal implications. For agenda item 2: a very basic rule for questions to the SC should be that the question should be crystal clear and not be changed half a day before the SC's decision. At the moment I don't even know anymore what the actual question is. regards, André -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi :) +1 Regards from Tom :) From: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 16:34:05 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team Hi Italo, Drew, On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com wrote: As a member of the SC, I would personally avoid to have the SC discuss this issue (which, in my opinion, is not an issue). This is something that teams should discuss internally, and I see the SC get into the discussion only if something unreasonable happens. I will confirm and support this choice during the SC meeting. I noted your change to the agenda item: (Italo: I do not like the way this item for discussion has been worded, according to what has been discussed in the mailing list) I was invited to add an agenda item for discussion, and this is the subject that I'm hoping that the SC will clarify, which arises from multiple past discussions about Windows screenshots. Given the claimed legal sensitivity of the issue, and the claimed legal liability arising from use of Windows screenshots, I feel it is indeed a valid matter to put before the SC for some official guidance/decisions. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi André, 2011/7/13 André Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net: I fully agree with Italo here. The discussion here at the list (and even you comment right now) is focused on the legal implications and what the SC would think of it. Your wording for the agenda item is much broader and requests a general decision on the screenshots independent from possible legal implications. I've actually worded the issue into the real questions coming to the fore from past discussions. The motion is clear and could be resolved easily and unambiguously. For agenda item 2: a very basic rule for questions to the SC should be that the question should be crystal clear and not be changed half a day before the SC's decision. At the moment I don't even know anymore what the actual question is. The real question is basically what I've submitted as the motion for discussion. And it does reflect the two choices that seem to have been voiced in past ML threads. I'm perplexed. ;-) -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi :) I think the question should be Can the documentation team continue to be consistent and use themes that it previously agreed or should it switch to using Windows and therefore make documentation have randomly different themes and OSes for screen-shots? With possible sub-questions to be asked If Windows is chosen then can the SC agree to TDF taking full responsibility if any legal issues crop up as a result? If Windows is chosen then should the nearly completed guides be re-done to use screen-shots from Windows only? Regards from Tom :) From: André Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Wed, 13 July, 2011 16:45:38 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team Hi David, Am 13.07.2011 17:34, schrieb David Nelson: I noted your change to the agenda item: (Italo: I do not like the way this item for discussion has been worded, according to what has been discussed in the mailing list) I was invited to add an agenda item for discussion, and this is the subject that I'm hoping that the SC will clarify, which arises from multiple past discussions about Windows screenshots. Given the claimed legal sensitivity of the issue, and the claimed legal liability arising from use of Windows screenshots, I feel it is indeed a valid matter to put before the SC for some official guidance/decisions. I fully agree with Italo here. The discussion here at the list (and even you comment right now) is focused on the legal implications and what the SC would think of it. Your wording for the agenda item is much broader and requests a general decision on the screenshots independent from possible legal implications. For agenda item 2: a very basic rule for questions to the SC should be that the question should be crystal clear and not be changed half a day before the SC's decision. At the moment I don't even know anymore what the actual question is. regards, André -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi, David Nelson wrote on 2011-07-12 11.45: OK, I'll add it to the next agenda and would be there to listen, and to present both sides of the issue, if invited. But if it's going to be a private session then maybe non-SC members won't be party to the discussions? we have a public session every week. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi Florian, On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: we have a public session every week. Oh, sure, but Michael seemed to feel that this might be better discussed in a private session? Would that be the intention? I can sort-of understand that, given the kind of debate that might ensue? In any case, I'll add it to the next agenda and thank you for your permission for that. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
David Nelson wrote: Oh, sure, but Michael seemed to feel that this might be better discussed in a private session? Would that be the intention? I can sort-of understand that, given the kind of debate that might ensue? I don't see why this should be a private discussion. Screenshots usually have two main objectives: 1. Show the process for getting to a result through a combination of different features (inside manuals and how to documents) 2. Show the appearance of a new feature (for announcements of new releases) In these two cases, screenshots are platform agnostic, provided that a feature is available on all platforms. For a limited (I hope) amount of time, we need to have Windows screenshots in order to show to the external world that LibreOffice runs on Windows (something that should not be necessary, if the outside world was made of normal people, but we have some extraordinary people who hint that LibreOffice is mainly a Linux product, because of the relationship between SUSE and Microsoft, which is a total nonsense, and are actively promoting this insane concept). -- Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com Mobile +39.348.5653829 VoIP: +39.02.320621813 Skype: italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi :) +1 to the idea of this being voted on by the SC/BoD without re-arguing the points. I had hoped the discussion would just congratulate the Documentation Team on neatly avoiding potential pitfalls that would take months to fix if MS used it as a side-issue in a any future dealings with them. It makes sense to use primarily Windows screen-shots in marketing, for the reasons Italo stated, but Documentation takes a LOT longer to fix. Inevitably there will be specific sections that focus on individual OSes but the bulk of the documentation tries to stay consistent with itself rather than look randomly thrown together. A flippant vote taken in under 5 mins to change documentation to use Windows screen-shots would result in many months of hard-work for the tiny documentation team and would result in no documentation being out-there until that work gets re-done. Right now there are questions about whether to bother continuing to work at the documentation at all until after the SC/BoD has decided to tell the team how to do their work. If the SC/BoD wants official documentation to be done in a way that demands using Windows screen-shots and also relinquishes any responsibility for the completed work so that individuals might be left facing the full wrath of MS as individuals then i think we can forget about any documentation ever getting done! The question is really about whether to support the Documentation Team or to tell them to re-do everything in Windows and then not support them at all! Have they really wasted their time and effort doing a bad job? Regards from Tom :) From: David Nelson li...@traduction.biz To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tue, 12 July, 2011 12:10:42 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team Hi Florian, On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 1:06 PM, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: we have a public session every week. Oh, sure, but Michael seemed to feel that this might be better discussed in a private session? Would that be the intention? I can sort-of understand that, given the kind of debate that might ensue? In any case, I'll add it to the next agenda and thank you for your permission for that. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Tom Davies wrote: I had hoped the discussion would just congratulate the Documentation Team on neatly avoiding potential pitfalls that would take months to fix if MS used it as a side-issue in a any future dealings with them. It makes sense to use primarily Windows screen-shots in marketing, for the reasons Italo stated, but Documentation takes a LOT longer to fix. Sorry, but I don't see why we should mix two completely different issues. The documentation team sets the rules for documentation, and I don't see why the SC should change these rules if they are - and they are - well thought. On the other hand, marketing has different - short term - needs, which are important for the project but should not be taken as a rule for the entire project. Marketing, sometimes, is very tactical, because of the changing situation of the outside environment. Documentation, on the other hand, is totally strategical, and has long term objectives and rules. So, the two projects should follow two paths according to their short or long term objectives. In my opinion, documentation screenshots can be entirely Linux (unless there is a specific feature on a different OS). At the same time, screenshots that we provide to the media can be entirely Windows (while on the web we can post both Linux and Windows in order to give a choice). -- Italo Vignoli tel: +39.348.5653829 VoIP: +39.02.320621813 it...@libreoffice.it skype italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi :) +1 I totally agree with all of that :)) It's a relief even if it's not the finalised vote. Thanks Italo :) Regards from Tom :) From: Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tue, 12 July, 2011 14:09:56 Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team Tom Davies wrote: I had hoped the discussion would just congratulate the Documentation Team on neatly avoiding potential pitfalls that would take months to fix if MS used it as a side-issue in a any future dealings with them. It makes sense to use primarily Windows screen-shots in marketing, for the reasons Italo stated, but Documentation takes a LOT longer to fix. Sorry, but I don't see why we should mix two completely different issues. The documentation team sets the rules for documentation, and I don't see why the SC should change these rules if they are - and they are - well thought. On the other hand, marketing has different - short term - needs, which are important for the project but should not be taken as a rule for the entire project. Marketing, sometimes, is very tactical, because of the changing situation of the outside environment. Documentation, on the other hand, is totally strategical, and has long term objectives and rules. So, the two projects should follow two paths according to their short or long term objectives. In my opinion, documentation screenshots can be entirely Linux (unless there is a specific feature on a different OS). At the same time, screenshots that we provide to the media can be entirely Windows (while on the web we can post both Linux and Windows in order to give a choice). -- Italo Vignoli tel: +39.348.5653829 VoIP: +39.02.320621813 it...@libreoffice.it skype italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Le 09/07/11 23:32, Simon Phipps a écrit : As someone who also has worked in this field for the best part of a decade, and given the advice Alex has already provided appears extreme, I would suggest also seeking counsel from another specialist if TDF wishes to pursue this path, perhaps from SFLC. An excellent suggestion. Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Le 09/07/11 23:26, Bernhard Dippold a écrit : Hi all, Someone suggested I sling in some caselaw or other references on whether copyright protection is available for UIs : US Just one caselaw review : http://www.legalserviceindia.com/articles/crind.htm Europe In European Union Court of Justice Case C-393/09 : http://kluwercopyrightblog.com/2011/03/24/protection-of-guis-graphical-user-interfaces-some-comments-about-the-ecj-%E2%80%98s-preliminary-ruling-in-bsa-v-ministervo-kultury/ involving the BSA against the Ministry of Culture of the Czech Republic relating tp television broadcasting of user interface. What the latter ruling states is that copyright is not available under the Computer Program Copyright Directive 91/250/EEC, as that is intended to protect code per se. However, copyright is available for UIs under the more general Copyright Directive 2001/29/EC, providing that they meet the criteria for awarding copyright, i.e. originality, author's own work, etc. So to all those naysayers who think that no-one sues anyone else over UI elements - wake up, and take stock. Am I paranoid ? No, but people do get sued. Do I represent the BSA ? No, but I know peers that do, and believe me, love it or hate it, the BSA do sue people. Please, by all means, get an opinion, hell, get several opinions, most likely they will all be as different as there are different states in the world. Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 6:30 AM, Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com wrote: Le 09/07/11 23:26, Bernhard Dippold a écrit : Hi all, Someone suggested I sling in some caselaw or other references on whether copyright protection is available for UIs : US Just one caselaw review : http://www.legalserviceindia.com/articles/crind.htm Europe In European Union Court of Justice Case C-393/09 : http://kluwercopyrightblog.com/2011/03/24/protection-of-guis-graphical-user-interfaces-some-comments-about-the-ecj-%E2%80%98s-preliminary-ruling-in-bsa-v-ministervo-kultury/ involving the BSA against the Ministry of Culture of the Czech Republic relating tp television broadcasting of user interface. What the latter ruling states is that copyright is not available under the Computer Program Copyright Directive 91/250/EEC, as that is intended to protect code per se. However, copyright is available for UIs under the more general Copyright Directive 2001/29/EC, providing that they meet the criteria for awarding copyright, i.e. originality, author's own work, etc. What the ruling also say is: In a second question, the ECJ was asked whether television broadcasting of a GUI “constitutes communication to the public of a work protected by copyright within the meaning of Article 3(1) of Directive 2001/29”. The ECJ answers that if a GUI is displayed in the context of television broadcasting of a programme, television viewers receive a communication of that GUI in a passive manner, without having the possibility to interact with the program. According to the ECJ, as individuals do not have access to the essential element characterising the interface, that is to say, interaction with the user, “there is no communication to the public of the graphic user interface within the meaning of Article 3(1) of Directive 2001/29”. That same rational apply to screen shoot in a documentation. iow common sens still prevail despite BSA's effort. So to all those naysayers who think that no-one sues anyone else over UI elements - wake up, and take stock. Am I paranoid ? No, but people do get sued. Do I represent the BSA ? No, but I know peers that do, and believe me, love it or hate it, the BSA do sue people. I'm sure that people sue, and some jurisdiction are indeed very prone to frivolous law suit... but does that means that we have to abdicate basic freedom and right ? If you are that concerned about liabilities, make sure that TDF itself does not author nor 'publish' any documentation... and have a money-less French loi-1901 association to do the publishing... The fact that TDF 'endorse' the content of a book does not make it liable for real or imaginary infringements in that book. Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi all, just to keep your eye on one of the phrases Alex wrote, I remove most of this mail: Alexander Thurgood schrieb: [...] I make part of my living out of representing IP rights holders in legal actions against those who do not respect those rights, but also defending those who happen to be on receiving end when the boot is on the other foot. So I would take this position as an expert's view. Perhaps it would be possible for Alex to attend the SC call when this topic is discussed. [...] It is a no-brainer : either ask in MS writing, consult an attorney for each territory of interest (expensive no doubt, and possibly unsatisfactory, with fairly heterogeneous answers), or just plain don't use MS's stuff. Best regards Bernhard PS: If Microsoft considers the icons to close or minimize a window as belonging to their product icons (they are icons of their product Windows XP/Vista/7), it's hard to avoid them. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Simon Phipps schrieb: As someone who also has worked in this field for the best part of a decade, and given the advice Alex has already provided appears extreme, I would suggest also seeking counsel from another specialist if TDF wishes to pursue this path, perhaps from SFLC. +1 Bernhard S. On 9 Jul 2011, at 22:26, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi all, just to keep your eye on one of the phrases Alex wrote, I remove most of this mail: Alexander Thurgood schrieb: [...] I make part of my living out of representing IP rights holders in legal actions against those who do not respect those rights, but also defending those who happen to be on receiving end when the boot is on the other foot. So I would take this position as an expert's view. Perhaps it would be possible for Alex to attend the SC call when this topic is discussed. [...] It is a no-brainer : either ask in MS writing, consult an attorney for each territory of interest (expensive no doubt, and possibly unsatisfactory, with fairly heterogeneous answers), or just plain don't use MS's stuff. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Le 06/07/11 11:48, Tom Davies a écrit : Everyone : To me, the point has more to do with SC communication. Once again, a topic has raised its head that I considered dealt with, and now it is back on the table. Although not a member of the SC, the question of the legality of screenshot usage and associated platforms for making them has become important enough IMO for a decision to be clearly stated by the SC, so I am submitting this question as a topic for discussion to you all. If there is already a decision somewhere in the archives, or on the wiki, could someone from the SC please point us to it ? If not, please consider this question for discussion as quickly as possible and issue a statement. Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi :) It is a complex area of Law in most countries. It might be even more than 1 area since we might be dealing with intellectual property rights, other copyright issues, patents contracts. We can easily avoid the whole legal mess by avoiding Windows and Apple screen-shots. We can just use screen-shots from gnulinux distros as the documentation team was happily doing up until Jean popped off on holiday. There are sometimes slight differences but the documentation team has been able to work-around these either through text or by editing the screen-shots a bit. Most companies that have to worry about this sort of thing employ a legal department. I don't think TDF can afford to do that. I also don't think we can afford to take the word of any individuals about how seriously we need to take this sort of issue. So, i would personally recommend that we do as the documentation team agreed to do ages ago and just avoid the potential danger area completely by using screen-shots from organisations that honour copyleft agreements. However, i agree with Alex that we need some sort of statement from the SC to settle the issue at least until the BoD can make a 'permanent' ruling. Apols and regards from Tom :) From: Alexander Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com To: steering-discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Fri, 8 July, 2011 9:11:10 Subject: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team Le 06/07/11 11:48, Tom Davies a écrit : Everyone : To me, the point has more to do with SC communication. Once again, a topic has raised its head that I considered dealt with, and now it is back on the table. Although not a member of the SC, the question of the legality of screenshot usage and associated platforms for making them has become important enough IMO for a decision to be clearly stated by the SC, so I am submitting this question as a topic for discussion to you all. If there is already a decision somewhere in the archives, or on the wiki, could someone from the SC please point us to it ? If not, please consider this question for discussion as quickly as possible and issue a statement. Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi Tom, *, @Tom: thank you very much for your kind words and your moral support and practical help regarding Alfresco. However, usage of Alfresco is really a bit off-topic for bringing to the attention of the SC. Alfresco usage/non-usage is more a question of natural, Darwinian survival/non-survival, and the SC would probably not want to get involved in that :-D @Tom, *: However, the question of acceptability of Windows screenshots in LibreOffice documentation and web pages has more relevance. As Tom explains, the issue has been discussed a number of times, with various people perceiving a risk in the usage of screenshots of our product taken on a Windows OS, and with various other people dismissing any such risk as implausible. My own 2 cents on the matter would be this: I've carefully read the pages put forward as pointing-up the problem with taking screenshots under Windows, and I must admit that I don't interpret them in a way that poses any risk to LibreOffice. In the cited pages, IMHO, Microsoft is legitimately protecting itself against screenshots of its own products' splashscreens, dialog boxes and windows being hijacked to publicize other products. It is not trying to limit use of the Windows platform by third-party products, nor documentation of those products. It actually spends a lot of time and effort promoting Windows as a development platform for third-party products. And the Internet is *full* of screenshots of Open Source and closed source products taken on Windows. What's more, if it *did* take action against an OS project for simply taking screenshots of the aforesaid OS product on the Windows platform, it would probably score a considerable own goal of negative publicity in public relations terms. So I think that Microsoft would be very unlikely to do so. And, even if it *did* do so, in what court/jurisdiction could it make such action stick? Under US federal law? In certain US states? I'm not convinced they'd succeed. In European courts? I'm even less convinced they'd succeed. And if they *did* succeed, what could they possibly win other than a cease-and-desist order? I really cannot imagine them winning damages as such. And, in either case, it would truly be a Pyrrhic victory in terms of image damage. So, IMHO, it's rather implausible. This is a subject that has been discussed a number of times over the past months. I think I'll ask for it to be discussed at a forthcoming SC confcall. It would be very convenient for docs team contributors to be able to take screenshots under Windows, as well as on Mac and Linux. Plus it would contribute to making it clear to users that LibreOffice is a truly multi-platform package, and not a niche product that seems to mainly target Linux. (I say this as a daily Ubuntu user and total Linux lover.) Please may I request this subject be discussed at the next SC meeting? (Or at your earliest possible convenience?) If you accept the subject for the agenda, I will be there to listen in and, if invited, debate the angles. -- David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
Hi :) In the MS vs TomTom case significant 'damages' were awarded to MS because TomTom were using a file-system that could be read by Windows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_v._TomTom http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Microsoft_v._TomTom_%282008,_USA%29 TomTom 'should' have been paying MS for the privilege of selling a product that worked on MS systems. The issue about Alfresco is a side-issue. It's about trying to disrupt work-flow and doing so 'behind the back' of the established team-leader. While David Jean have spent months setting up good work-flow with lots of discussion in the team Gary just suddenly decided to throw that out and tell new people to use his personal inadequate systems. The team seems to be re-asserting itself now at last. The legal issue about screen-shots is more important. Should we risk using stuff that some people that have legal experience or knowledge tell us is risky or should we stick to using safer screen-shots that look almost identical anyway? I realise that almost is the key-word there but since everyone uses different themes and skins it's impossible to make it all identical for everyone. Regards from Tom :) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
On 8 Jul 2011, at 13:09, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Except screen-shots in Windows can't have any useful arrows or circles to point out the exact thing being talked about in the documentation. Only screenshots of /Microsoft/ products. They can't even be cropped to show off particular areas. Icons can't be shown /Microsoft/ icons (?) (without altering the screen-shot??) and we have to get permission to use any of the standard MS fonts. I believe that is an excessively cautious interpretation. So, the documentation's screen-shots in Windows can only be as unhelpful as the screen that made the user want to dig into documentation because they couldn't find what they were looking for. The restriction on cropping applies to screenshots of /Microsoft/ products, and even then is most likely waived by the documentation exception. Microsoft are protecting their own products from abuse here, not telling developers on their platform that they may not document their own products. I hate their EULA as much as the next guy but really, the caution on display here is excessive. S. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [steering-discuss] Re: screen-shots Documentation Team
On Fri, Jul 8, 2011 at 7:19 AM, Simon Phipps si...@webmink.com wrote: On 8 Jul 2011, at 13:09, Tom Davies wrote: Hi :) Except screen-shots in Windows can't have any useful arrows or circles to point out the exact thing being talked about in the documentation. Only screenshots of /Microsoft/ products. Isn't that exactly what 'Fair Use' is all about ? Norbert -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
