Re: Future of the list / Questions?
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 05:42 PM Wednesday 10/22/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote: On Oct 22, 2008, at 5:33 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote: One problem is that compared to an e-mail list like this, most of the web-based communities have too rigid a structure, while this is much like an informal conversation where one person says something and then someone else responds, etc., and there may be different individual conversations going on between subsets of the group at the same time, etc. And too rigid a structure can be a community-killer, as I've seen happen more than once over more than 25 years. Online communities that rely on the technology to structure the communication too tightly, as well as the ones that are very strict on enforcing topicality, tend to have low populations, and going from less structure to more structure or radically altering the technology base of the community can trigger population crashes as people are driven off by the hassle factor. The e-list format does very much resemble a conversation, as well as some degree of cross-pollination between conversation threads, and the blog format can sometimes isolate the topical threads *too* much. That was the objection on the other list, including the fact that a small group would choose the topics of the various blog threads and approve all responses. (The e-mail list was and is moderated, but as it happens many of those who had been on the list for 10 years or better had also known each other in RL beginning as much as 25 or more years ago, while those who were going to be in charge of the blog system were by comparison relative newcomers. (Yeah, it's complicated, and I'm trying to avoid compromising some peoples' privacy by not going into all of the specifics . . . )) Also, as someone has mentioned, many people prefer having the messages come to them (as on a list like this) rather than them having to remember to look somewhere else for them . . . Now, this isn't necessarily a problem if you set the RSS feed up right. (I follow several online communities from my mail client, which can import RSS feeds along with mail accounts. Which mail client would that be, if you don't mind saying? Using Mozilla Thunderbird here, for the same purposes. And actually, I'm following the list on gmane, with the NNTP/news interface, so as not to clobber my inbox. I love gmane (http://gmane.org). /c ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Captain Renault Returns
From the New York Times, http://tinyurl.com/6fx8fy, Alan Greenspan said he was in a state of shocked disbelief about the breakdown in the ability of banks to regulate themselves Personally, I'm shocked that he is shocked. Rick: You're closing my place?! On what grounds?! Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find there is gambling going on here. Croupier (to Renault): Your winnings sir. you must remember this maru john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Future of the list / Questions?
- Original Message - From: Kevin B. O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 11:29 AM Subject: Re: Future of the list / Questions? I've been through this a few times, and my experience is that moving to a web-type forum generally means the end of the community. Sometimes I think that is the intention (I'm getting too much e-mail, how can we cut it down?). I have a quote in my sig file that goes A university is what a college becomes when it stops caring about its students. I think a corollary should be that a web forum is what a discussion list becomes when people stop caring about the conversation. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL Somebody mentioned a while ago that there are currently two Brin Lists, three if you count David's blog. Was an argument about the list's format the reason for the split? I had a look at the site for the other list yesterday and I note that the volume of posts there is pretty light compared to here. William you are member of both, and you plug the weekly chat forum is that a fourth Brin List? Is binary fission the answer to list longevity I wonder? If there were 20 Brin Lists each claiming to be the original, you might imagine that at least one would find the right formula and continue on into the distant future. Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Future of the list / Questions?
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Wayne Eddy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Somebody mentioned a while ago that there are currently two Brin Lists, three if you count David's blog. Was an argument about the list's format the reason for the split? I had a look at the site for the other list yesterday and I note that the volume of posts there is pretty light compared to here. The other list was started by a person who was so disruptive, including trying to hack into my server, that he was banned from the list. He is the only person we have banned, as far as I know (other than some spammers who tried to post right after joining). I can't even think of anybody else we have ever put on moderation (although all new users are automatically moderated until we feel confident that they are not just spammers and such). I'm not sure exactly what David B.'s attitude is toward the other list, but he is subscribed, albeit filtered, to this one. David only sees messages whose subject starts Brin:. William you are member of both, and you plug the weekly chat forum is that a fourth Brin List? A chat isn't a list and vice versa. Is binary fission the answer to list longevity I wonder? If there were 20 Brin Lists each claiming to be the original, you might imagine that at least one would find the right formula and continue on into the distant future. This one has been around far longer than any other. Its future rests mostly in the hands of the participants. My attitude has always been to err on the side of letting the community regulate itself. Now if I could just get PHP to work properly on the serve, I'd be most of the way to getting the blog mirror working. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Future of the list / Questions?
On 23 Oct 2008, at 20:40, Wayne Eddy wrote: Somebody mentioned a while ago that there are currently two Brin Lists, three if you count David's blog. Was an argument about the list's format the reason for the split? I had a look at the site for the other list yesterday and I note that the volume of posts there is pretty light compared to here. There was argument involved, but not about the list format. William you are member of both, and you plug the weekly chat forum is that a fourth Brin List? The chat is a complementary forum that has coexisted with the email lists since the original list was hosted at Cornell. I volunteered to take over running it a few years ago when the original computer service became unavailable. Is binary fission the answer to list longevity I wonder? If there were 20 Brin Lists each claiming to be the original, you might imagine that at least one would find the right formula and continue on into the distant future. This is the 'original' Brin List in the sense that it is the direct successor to the original Cornell list. Identity Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender imbalance
No. I asked who *you* thought was qualified. There are 7 Latinas serving in the current Congress: Ileana Ros-Lehtinen R-Fla Lucille Roybal-Allard D-Calif Nydia Velazquez D-NY Loretta Sanchez D- Calif (sister of Linda Sanchez, D-Calif) Grace Napolitano D-Calif Hilda Solis D-Calif Linda Sanchez D-Calif (sister of Loretta Sanchez, D-Calif) They all serve in the House of Representatives. Ros-Lehtinen is ineligible to serve as VP since she was born in Cuba. Nydia Velazquez was born in Puerto Rico, however since Puerto Ricans born on the island are US citizens by birth, she is eligible. All the rest were born on the mainland US. Kimberly Casiano runs the largest publisher of Hispanic periodicals and magazines in the US and serves as a director for Ford and Mutual of America. Ana Escobedo Cabral is the current Treasurer of the United States. Linda Chavez has held high positions in Republican administrations; she ran against Barbara Mikulski for the Senate and lost. Quite a few Latinas serve at the local and state levels. Of elected Latinas, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen probably has the greater national profile, but she is not eligible to serve as VP. As I have said before, my vote is given to the candidate who most closely matches my values. Ethnic pride aside, I would not vote for a candidate simply because she was a Latina, just as I would not vote for a candidate because he or she is a US Navy veteran, Roman Catholic, attended Jesuit high school, played stickball, grew up in Harlem or listens to Tito Puente. john let me ask you the same question, john. who do YOU think is qualified? based on what values? i don't pretend to claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer your question, but i would like to ask you why you think there are, or are not, more hispanic women in government in proportion to their population demographic? that is the real point i am making which you still have not addressed. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
- Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:29 AM Subject: Racial and Gender imbalance let me ask you the same question, john. who do YOU think is qualified? based on what values? i don't pretend to claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer your question, but i would like to ask you why you think there are, or are not, more hispanic women in government in proportion to their population demographic? that is the real point i am making which you still have not addressed. jon If you don't claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer John's question which is a very reasonable question considering the previous posts, perhaps you shouldn't have made your original statement in the first place. I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
- Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:29 AM Subject: Racial and Gender imbalance let me ask you the same question, john. who do YOU think is qualified? based on what values? i don't pretend to claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer your question, but i would like to ask you why you think there are, or are not, more hispanic women in government in proportion to their population demographic? that is the real point i am making which you still have not addressed. jon If you don't claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer John's question which is a very reasonable question considering the previous posts, perhaps you shouldn't have made your original statement in the first place. I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. Sorry, on re-reading that it is perhaps a bit harsher than I intended. Instead I should have just congratulated John Garcia on doing research on behalf of his opponent and still winning the debate hands down. Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender imbalance
let me ask you the same question, john. who do YOU think is qualified? based on what values? i don't pretend to claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer your question, but i would like to ask you why you think there are, or are not, more hispanic women in government in proportion to their population demographic? that is the real point i am making which you still have not addressed. jon If you don't claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer John's question which is a very reasonable question considering the previous posts, perhaps you shouldn't have made your original statement in the first place. I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. explain to me, wayne, why not being an expert on qualified hispanic women disqualifies me from having an opinion that hispanic women are underrepresented in government? are either you or john experts? i very clearly stated in the very first post i made on this topic that i was referring to QUALIFIED hispanic women. in fact i agree with both you and john that the merit should determine who is the best person for the job, regardless of race, religion or gender!the point i keep trying to make, which both you and john are persistently determined to ignore, is that these minorities continue to be underrepresented in proportion to their population demographic. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
- Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:09 AM Subject: Racial and Gender imbalance I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. explain to me, wayne, why not being an expert on qualified hispanic women disqualifies me from having an opinion that hispanic women are underrepresented in government? are either you or john experts? i very clearly stated in the very first post i made on this topic that i was referring to QUALIFIED hispanic women. in fact i agree with both you and john that the merit should determine who is the best person for the job, regardless of race, religion or gender!the point i keep trying to make, which both you and john are persistently determined to ignore, is that these minorities continue to be underrepresented in proportion to their population demographic. jon Sorry, As I have already said, the post was probably a bit harsher than I intended. You are indeed entitled to have your own opinion. I don't think however you should expect John to do all your research for you and then help you out with your argument for you too!! Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Future of the list / Questions?
Nick Arnett wrote: I'm not sure exactly what David B.'s attitude is toward the other list, but he is subscribed, albeit filtered, to this one. David only sees messages whose subject starts Brin:. Not counting times when He uses a sock puppet just to see if we are still worshipping Him in His absence :-))) Alberto the paranoid ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender imbalance
Sorry, on re-reading that it is perhaps a bit harsher than I intended. I should have just congratulated John Garcia on doing research on behalf of his opponent and still winning the debate hands down. Regards, Wayne. Yeah right, obviously you did not bother to access the links I provided, however, you are both entitled to your opinion. I am not surprised that you support each others sophist arguments, but bear in mind, that specious arguments do not a winner make... Jon Sarcasm is the refuge of losers - Little Miss Sunshine Sarcasm is the language of the devil, for which reason I have long since renounced it. Thomas Carlyle Sarcasm: the last refuge of modest and chaste-souled people when the privacy of their soul is coarsely and intrusively invaded. Fyodor Dostoevsky, Notes From the Underground Sarcasm and compassion are two of the qualities that make life on earth tolerable. Nicholas Hornby Sarcasm is not the rapier of wit its wielders seem to believe it to be, but merely a club: it may, by dint of brute force, occasionally raise bruises, but it never cuts or pierces. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On 23 Oct 2008, at 21:52, Wayne Eddy wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: let me ask you the same question, john. who do YOU think is qualified? based on what values? i don't pretend to claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer your question, but i would like to ask you why you think there are, or are not, more hispanic women in government in proportion to their population demographic? that is the real point i am making which you still have not addressed. jon If you don't claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer John's question which is a very reasonable question considering the previous posts, perhaps you shouldn't have made your original statement in the first place. I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. explain to me, wayne, why not being an expert on qualified hispanic women disqualifies me from having an opinion that hispanic women are underrepresented in government? are either you or john experts? i very clearly stated in the very first post i made on this topic that i was referring to QUALIFIED hispanic women. in fact i agree with both you and john that the merit should determine who is the best person for the job, regardless of race, religion or gender!the point i keep trying to make, which both you and john are persistently determined to ignore, is that these minorities continue to be underrepresented in proportion to their population demographic. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Qualified is irrelevant. We hear a lot of talk on both sides of the campaign about qualifications for the Presidency. What would those be? Is there an apprenticeship for the job? Is it like moving from journeyman to master electrician? ALL Presidents have been unqualified on Inaugural Day, except for those who served more than one term. For me, the question is Who do I want to lead me and this country? Now, it appears that your question is why are Chicanos, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, San Salvadorans, Peruvians, Argentinians, Chileans, Hondurans, Dominicans, Costa Ricans, Bolivians, Venezuelans, and possibly some Latin countries that I have forgotten, not sitting in Congress in proportion to their demographic. Or why are Latin women underrepresented in government. Could be many reasons, among them racisim, xenophobia, the tradition that Latin women defer to Latin men, the fact that Latinos in the US who are citizens or 2nd or 3rd generation are dispersed, and don't live in ethnic communities, lower expectations for Latina women, the notion that politics is a dirty business not fit for a Latin woman, the list goes on and on. If any conspiracy exists, it is one to keep incumbents in office through district redrawing. But we don't see many women in Congress in proportion to their population, or the Senate would be half male and half female, let alone Anglo, Latin, Black, or Asian. Listen, I'm not trying to get into an argument. If Ileana Ros-Lehtinen had been born in Miami instead of Havana, McCain might have picked her instead of Palin. I don't agree with her entirely, but I do agree that she has a level of political experience that places her above Palin. john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On 23 Oct 2008, at 21:52, Wayne Eddy wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru -- William T Goodall Hi William. I do believe what I said, and while nothing is black and white and everything is grey, I believe that (b) is more true than (a). But the solution is still the same. Always choose the best man or woman for the job. Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 5:26 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On 23 Oct 2008, at 21:52, Wayne Eddy wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l or c) There is a bias against i) People who did not go to an 'elite' school or university ii) People who come from a 'lower class' demographic iii) People who have not had the same economic, cultural and social advantages as others I could go on. Not every non-white is disadvantaged and not every white is overly advantaged (although Chris Rock once said that the poorest white man would not trade places with a black multi-millionaire). john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Wayne Eddy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:29 AM Subject: Racial and Gender imbalance let me ask you the same question, john. who do YOU think is qualified? based on what values? i don't pretend to claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer your question, but i would like to ask you why you think there are, or are not, more hispanic women in government in proportion to their population demographic? that is the real point i am making which you still have not addressed. jon If you don't claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer John's question which is a very reasonable question considering the previous posts, perhaps you shouldn't have made your original statement in the first place. I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. Sorry, on re-reading that it is perhaps a bit harsher than I intended. Instead I should have just congratulated John Garcia on doing research on behalf of his opponent and still winning the debate hands down. Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Thanks Wayne, but I'm not trying to play gotcha, and if it seems like that I apologize. john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender bigotry
explain to me, wayne, why not being an expert on qualified hispanic women disqualifies me from having an opinion that hispanic women are underrepresented in government? are either you or john experts? i very clearly stated in the very first post i made on this topic that i was referring to QUALIFIED hispanic women. in fact i agree with both you and john that the merit should determine who is the best person for the job, regardless of race, religion or gender!the point i keep trying to make, which both you and john are persistently determined to ignore, is that these minorities continue to be underrepresented in proportion to their population demographic. jon Sorry, As I have already said, the post was probably a bit harsher than I intended. You are indeed entitled to have your own opinion. I don't think however you should expect John to do all your research for you and then help you out with your argument for you too!! Regards, Wayne. Sorry if I don't believe you, Wayne. Your sarcasm was intended or you would not have posted it. No need to apologize, however, I expect specious arguments from someone who obviously didn't read MY research, or deliberately chose to ignore it? Here is what I posted, again, BEFORE John's response: I fully admit that he was able to locate more Hispanic women in the Congress, but that does not negate my argument that Hispanic women are underrepresented in government. I'll bite back, and take your bait, John. Surely you are you not suggesting that Hispanic women are not qualified to lead? I doubt that you would reach such a racist and sexist conclusion. Back in 1968 Hispanic women started to address the imbalance: http://www.hwil.org/1.html Heer is a link to prominent Hispanic women in business: http://www.hbwa.net/ Hispanic women in leadership: http://www.hwil.org/1.html Female Governors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_state_governors_in_the_United_States#List_of_female_state_governors It is true that Hispanic women have rarely achieved the sort of prominence of Sarah Palin, but that has largely been because they are brown skinned and female. I believe there has been one acting Hispanic female governor, however. The first female governor elected without being the wife or widow of a past state governor was Ella T. Grasso of Connecticut in 1975. I was only able to find a couple Hispanic women in Congress: http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/popup/80elitewomen.asp?year=2003id=115 http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/popup/80elitewomen.asp?year=2003id=114 but no Senators, yet... That is slowly beginning to change with the emerging political power of Hispanics in certain sections of America. It is also being expressed in the growth of Hispanic cultural worldwide. Finally, here is a link to delays in Senate Action on Judicial Nominations: http://leahy.senate.gov/press/199806/980618b.html Hope this answers your question? Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender bigotry
I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people, or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru William T Goodall i absolutely do believe there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs in government. do you deny it? i also believe something should be done about it. do you believe that white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender bigotry
OK, I'd love to hear from anyone who's been contributing to this thread: List *up to* three female Hispanic politicians, explaining to me why each would make a good vice-presidential candidate. If you only pick one, that's fine. Throwing URLs around right and left is providing information, but it's providing me with too much at the moment, and if I try to pursue it, I'm cluttering up an already-cluttered desktop. If you get down to the specifics, that THIS female Hispanic would be a good pick for VP, and give me a convincing argument, that will stick a lot better with me in the long run than just the statement, We should be considering female Hispanics for these positions. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender bigotry
or c) There is a bias against i) People who did not go to an 'elite' school or university ii) People who come from a 'lower class' demographic iii) People who have not had the same economic, cultural and social advantages as others I could go on. Not every non-white is disadvantaged and not every white is overly advantaged (although Chris Rock once said that the poorest white man would not trade places with a black multi-millionaire). john i would in a new york minute, as long as he was in better health than i!~) i am not disputing that here are disadvantaged and oppressed white men, or claiming that all women and minorities are... i am not concerned about them, however, because caucasian males have a long history of being the oppressor and reaping the spoils of colonization, slavery and economic exploitation of third world races. that is not to say that african and others oppressed by europeans have not committed atrocities of their own, just not that successfully against their conquerors. in america, the history of slavery and genocided by white males fars exceeds that of their victims... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender bigotry
On Thu, 23 Oct 2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people, or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru William T Goodall i absolutely do believe there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs in government. do you deny it? i also believe something should be done about it. do you believe that white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people? jon I think better access to the kind of education and social networking opportunities that white males are a lot more likely to have access to when they're young would make it easier for women and minorities to make better inroads. So then we just work on solving *that* problem, and the bigger one we've been discussing will be a lot closer to being solved in 30 years. (No, I'm not sure just how to do that. I think giving scholarships to appropriate colleges based on *zip code* in the US will get around any race-based restrictions one way or the other but will get more of the minorities in the door with carefully selected zip codes.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender bigotry
i absolutely do believe there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs in government. do you deny it? i also believe something should be done about it. do you believe that white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people? jon I think better access to the kind of education and social networking opportunities that white males are a lot more likely to have access to when they're young would make it easier for women and minorities to make better inroads. So then we just work on solving *that* problem, and the bigger one we've been discussing will be a lot closer to being solved in 30 years. (No, I'm not sure just how to do that. I think giving scholarships to appropriate colleges based on *zip code* in the US will get around any race-based restrictions one way or the other but will get more of the minorities in the door with carefully selected zip codes.) Julia whatever is done to favor minorities is bound to be resented by certain elements in the white community.. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender bigotry
OK, I'd love to hear from anyone who's been contributing to this thread: List *up to* three female Hispanic politicians, explaining to me why each would make a good vice-presidential candidate. If you only pick one, that's fine. Throwing URLs around right and left is providing information, but it's providing me with too much at the moment, and if I try to pursue it, I'm cluttering up an already-cluttered desktop. If you get down to the specifics, that THIS female Hispanic would be a good pick for VP, and give me a convincing argument, that will stick a lot better with me in the long run than just the statement, We should be considering female Hispanics for these positions. Julia Julia, as much as i would like to take up your challenge, i just don't have the time to abck up my opinion that ther is a gender, racial and religious bias that favors white males. i am certain,however that there are many, many qualified candidates for high office among all races, genders, ethnicities and cultural populations, but the bias is definitely biased in favor of white males. that is all i am saying, and that i would liked to have had obama choose a hispanic woman instead of biden. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender bigotry
On Oct 23, 2008, at 4:55 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people, or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru William T Goodall i absolutely do believe there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs in government. do you deny it? i also believe something should be done about it. do you believe that white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people? jon 1) I believe an inequity exists that grants disproportionate advantage to white males in this country's key leadership positions. 2) I believe that one of the primary mechanisms driving that inequity is an educational system that, historically, has favored wealthy upper class students who a) come from families more able to afford to pay for participation in that educational process; b) are part of a subculture that has been raised for many decades with the expectation of entitlement to leadership; and c) enjoy favorable treatment from older generations of that subculture and those families who are currently holding most of those positions of power already, and until about the past generation or so, the vast majority of those successful in that educational system have been white males. Bearing in mind the average age of this country's leadership, most of the people making up that establishment graduated from college sometime in the 1950's, so the inequities that contribute to the white male club currently in charge of this country are historical ones, not current ones. 3) I believe that the inequity should indeed be dealt with decisively. 4) I believe that the current state of higher education in this country has, with a few notable exceptions, largely addressed the inequities that in the past created the white male power structure, and in addition to that, the culture of the country has changed significantly during that time and now no longer equates aptitude to govern exclusively with success as judged by that educational system, which will, on its own, cause those inequities to balance out over the next generation or so, which to me, largely satisfies 3), other than the remaining exceptions which pose entirely different problems than the historical source of the current imbalance. 5) I believe that using gender, ethnicity, religion, or other statistical distinctions as a means of artificially enforcing the statistical makeup of this country's leadership does a disservice to both the country and the people chosen to lead it. This applies both ways, however, and as I said, I find drawing any kind of racial/gender/ belief system boundaries racist and offensive. (I would apply the double-blind method, myself, to make sure *only* the metrics relevant to actual performance of the job were considered, but I'm a little odd in that respect.) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender bigotry
Qualified is irrelevant. We hear a lot of talk on both sides of the campaign about qualifications for the Presidency. What would those be? Is there an apprenticeship for the job? Is it like moving from journeyman to master electrician? ALL Presidents have been unqualified on Inaugural Day, except for those who served more than one term. For me, the question is Who do I want to lead me and this country? Now, it appears that your question is why are Chicanos, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, San Salvadorans, Peruvians, Argentinians, Chileans, Hondurans, Dominicans, Costa Ricans, Bolivians, Venezuelans, and possibly some Latin countries that I have forgotten, not sitting in Congress in proportion to their demographic. Or why are Latin women underrepresented in government. Could be many reasons, among them racisim, xenophobia, the tradition that Latin women defer to Latin men, the fact that Latinos in the US who are citizens or 2nd or 3rd generation are dispersed, and don't live in ethnic communities, lower expectations for Latina women, the notion that politics is a dirty business not fit for a Latin woman, the list goes on and on. If any conspiracy exists, it is one to keep incumbents in office through district redrawing. But we don't see many women in Congress in proportion to their population, or the Senate would be half male and half female, let alone Anglo, Latin, Black, or Asian. Listen, I'm not trying to get into an argument. If Ileana Ros-Lehtinen had been born in Miami instead of Havana, McCain might have picked her instead of Palin. I don't agree with her entirely, but I do agree that she has a level of political experience that places her above Palin. john i would not say that qualified is entirely irrelevant, but i would say that experience is not always an advantage (for mccain/palin!~). all i am saying is that bigotry exists... jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and sexual balance
Affirmative action is racist and wrong. However, I see nothing wrong in giving lower income people a leg up especially when it comes to education. This would benefit minorities disproportionally but it wouldn't be an attempt to correct racism with a racist solution. Doug it would be great if all inequites could be addressed without regard to race, sex, ethnicity, etc. however, cases where a minority is given preference over a white male, who may even be more qualified, to satisfy quotas are less of a concern to me than the reverse. when the advantage was reversed for white males, far more injustices existed against minorities. it thas taken generations to begin to address these inequities, and we are still a long way away from equal rights and equal justice for all. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Racial and Gender bigotry
1) I believe an inequity exists that grants disproportionate advantage to white males in this country's key leadership positions. 2) I believe that one of the primary mechanisms driving that inequity is an educational system that, historically, has favored wealthy upper class students who a) come from families more able to afford to pay for participation in that educational process; b) are part of a subculture that has been raised for many decades with the expectation of entitlement to leadership; and c) enjoy favorable treatment from older generations of that subculture and those families who are currently holding most of those positions of power already, and until about the past generation or so, the vast majority of those successful in that educational system have been white males. Bearing in mind the average age of this country's leadership, most of the people making up that establishment graduated from college sometime in the 1950's, so the inequities that contribute to the white male club currently in charge of this country are historical ones, not current ones. 3) I believe that the inequity should indeed be dealt with decisively. 4) I believe that the current state of higher education in this country has, with a few notable exceptions, the largely addressed the inequities that in the past created white male power structure, and in addition to that, the culture of the country has changed significantly during that time and no longer equates aptitude to govern exclusively with success as judged by that educational system, which will, on its own, cause those inequities to balance out over the next generation or so, which to me, largely satisfies \. other than 5)the remaining exceptions which pose entirely different problems than the historical source of the current imbalance. 6) I believe that using gender, ethnicity, religion, or other statistical distinctions as a means of artificially enforcing the statistical makeup of this country's leadership does a disservice to both the country and the people chosen to lead. This applies both ways, however, and as I said, I find drawing any kind of racial/gender/belief system boundaries racist and offensive. (I would apply the double-blind method, myself, to make sure *only* metrics relevant to actual performance of the job were considered, but I'm a little odd in that respect.) nothing odd about that, bruce... it's just that merit sometimes loses out over quotas, which may be an injustice, but you can't make an omelet with out breaking eggs. i believe we are slowly catching and foresee a time when my father's generation will be dead, and hopefully the present generation will know better. however i still see a lot of racism around in the current generation. my baby boomer generation though we would eradicate sexism and racism, but when i look around it still exists. progress is being made, however. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
John Garcia wrote: As I have said before, my vote is given to the candidate who most closely matches my values. Ethnic pride aside, I would not vote for a candidate simply because she was a Latina, just as I would not vote for a candidate because he or she is a US Navy veteran, Roman Catholic, attended Jesuit high school, played stickball, grew up in Harlem or listens to Tito Puente. But I'd give points for listening to Tito Puente, at least. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux User #333216 There is much to be said in favor of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community. - Oscar Wilde ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Brin: The Core
Was there any advance in the credit/lawsuit/whatever related to the rip-off movie The Core? I was editing the Portuguese Wikipedia article about it, and I would like to know if there is any hard data (references, frex) about it. The English Wikipedia article only mentions that it was ripped off (ripoffed?) from Paul Creuss's book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Core The Core is a science fiction disaster film loosely based on the novel Core by Paul Preuss. It concerns a team that has to drill to the center of the Earth (...) Alberto Monteiro PS: about wikis, you mentioned in the (yikes!) blog the... http://www.galaxiki.org/ ... however, I think there are some problems with this site: - they ask users to _buy_ stars (wikis and .org are supposed to be freesites!) - they don't pay too much attention to physics when randomly generating star systems ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On 23 Oct 2008, at 22:35, Wayne Eddy wrote: On 23 Oct 2008, at 21:52, Wayne Eddy wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru -- William T Goodall Hi William. I do believe what I said, and while nothing is black and white and everything is grey, I believe that (b) is more true than (a). But the solution is still the same. Always choose the best man or woman for the job. One way of checking whether large organisations are choosing the best man or woman for the job is to compare their hiring to the expected demographic if they were really doing that. A statistically large deviation from the expected demographic would indicate a systematic bias in their HR practices. Those opposed to measurement characterise this as quotas and personalise the story as some well-qualified white male losing a career opportunity to 'make up the numbers'. What the numbers actually show is lots of people who aren't white males are clearly losing career opportunities due to systematic bias. Real unfairness trumps hypothetical unfairness. White male Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or Allow? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Latina Pols (Was Re: Racial and Gender bigotry)
Julia Thompson wrote: OK, I'd love to hear from anyone who's been contributing to this thread: List *up to* three female Hispanic politicians, explaining to me why each would make a good vice-presidential candidate. If you only pick one, that's fine. Throwing URLs around right and left is providing information, but it's providing me with too much at the moment, and if I try to pursue it, I'm cluttering up an already-cluttered desktop. If you get down to the specifics, that THIS female Hispanic would be a good pick for VP, and give me a convincing argument, that will stick a lot better with me in the long run than just the statement, We should be considering female Hispanics for these positions. Janet Napolitano, Governor of Arizona, did receive a lot of attention as a potential VP candidate for Obama this time around. Here are a few things from her resume: 1. She was U.S. Attorney for the Arizona District 2. She was Attorney General for Arizona. 3. She is in her second term as Governor. 4. She was the first female Governor to win re-election. 5. She was chair of the National Governor's Association, and the first female to hold that postion. 6. In 2005, Time Magazine named her one of the five best governors in the country. So, I think she has executive experience, a detailed resume, and would probably be a good VP or President (and I am old-fashioned enough to think that if you would not be a good President you have no business being Vice-President). In fact, back in June and July she was my number one choice for the Democratic ticket. As Arizona has term limits that prevent her from running again for Governor, she is likely going to go for McCain's Senate seat in 2010. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux User #333216 There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about. -- John von Neumann ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender bigotry
On 23 Oct 2008, at 22:55, Jon Louis Mann wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people, or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru William T Goodall i absolutely do believe there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs in government. do you deny it? i also believe something should be done about it. do you believe that white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people? jon Your quoting is getting better. Reading next Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. - Richard Dawkins ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Funny
http://www.break.com/index/unbelievable-mccain-vs-obama-dance-off.html lolz Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or Allow? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender bigotry
At 05:03 PM Thursday 10/23/2008, Julia Thompson wrote: OK, I'd love to hear from anyone who's been contributing to this thread: List *up to* three female Hispanic politicians, explaining to me why each would make a good vice-presidential candidate. If you only pick one, that's fine. Throwing URLs around right and left is providing information, but it's providing me with too much at the moment, and if I try to pursue it, I'm cluttering up an already-cluttered desktop. If you get down to the specifics, that THIS female Hispanic would be a good pick for VP, and give me a convincing argument, that will stick a lot better with me in the long run than just the statement, We should be considering female Hispanics for these positions. Julia Also please identify those who are traditional social/fiscal conservatives not neo-cons, not necessarily members of the religious right, not necessarily even Republicans, but those who are likely to frex appeal to the ordinary folks in flyover country and to clean up the current financial mess without going to extremes either way or paying off anyone . . . . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender bigotry
At 05:20 PM Thursday 10/23/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote: whatever is done to favor minorities is bound to be resented by certain elements in the white community.. As well as all the other minorities who are not so favored. . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and sexual balance
Jon wrote: it would be great if all inequites could be addressed without regard to race, sex, ethnicity, etc. however, cases where a minority is given preference over a white male, who may even be more qualified, to satisfy quotas are less of a concern to me than the reverse. when the advantage was reversed for white males, far more injustices existed against minorities. it thas taken generations to begin to address these inequities, and we are still a long way away from equal rights and equal justice for all. You have to change people's attitudes. Affirmative action not only does nothing to help people see why racism is wrong, it reinforces the idea that race should be an important factor. Its polarizing; it alienates people and its counterproductive in the battle against racism. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
