Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
At 12:40 AM Thursday 10/30/2008, Nick Arnett wrote: On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 8:26 PM, John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: A big health care system is much like a big economy, there is no way that it can be administered and centrally controlled efficiently. Did somebody propose a centrally administered and controlled health care system? co-president Hillary did, IIRC. On a practical level, however, does not the golden rule apply, in that whoever controls the purse-strings ultimately controls what is done? If the government is the single payer, then would not they set the rules? . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did somebody propose a centrally administered and controlled health care system? Yes. (who smells straw) Could be a chronic medical condition. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Geography troll [was: Single payer health care]
Again.. *points to Holland's system* of course, holland, and other western countries, (...) troll The name of the country is The Netherlands. Holland is one part of it, which, unfortunately, has permeated western languages as the name of the whole country. In Portuguese, it's even awful. We use Holanda when we should use the horrible word Neerlândia. It's like calling the United Kingdom England or the USA Florida-Ohio. /troll Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:02 AM, Ronn! Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did somebody propose a centrally administered and controlled health care system? co-president Hillary did, IIRC. Nope. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan On a practical level, however, does not the golden rule apply, in that whoever controls the purse-strings ultimately controls what is done? If the government is the single payer, then would not they set the rules? Some rules, of course, if the aim is universal health care. That doesn't make the government the provider or administrator of the service. Government can set rules without taking operational control of an industry. Obama's plan increases competition among insurance and drug companies. That's less centralization, not more. Medicare would be allowed to shop around; that's also less centralized control. Health care would be sold through a national exchange, not a central administration of health care services. The idea isn't to replace administration and control, it is to make it more efficient through competition, while making it available to all. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:11 AM, John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did somebody propose a centrally administered and controlled health care system? Yes. (who smells straw) Could be a chronic medical condition. Correlation analysis suggests otherwise. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
correct geography nomnclaturee
of course, holland, and other western countries, (...) troll The name of the country is The Netherlands. Holland is one part of it, which, unfortunately, has permeated western languages as the name of the whole country. In Portuguese, it's even awful. We use Holanda when we should use the horrible word Neerlândia. It's like calling the United Kingdom England or the USA Florida-Ohio. /troll Alberto Monteiro thanks for the correction, alberto. what part of the netherlands is holland? is it correct to call natives of the netherlands, dutch? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Bike Tour in New Zealand
Where did you tour on your bicycle? Charlie Some Experience Of Human Powered Travel Maru New Zed in '87 89. I hitched all over Aus and had all kinds of adventures. I am thinking about building a bike and doing the Stewart Island, and the South Island. Nice. I'm still thinking about doing NZ on my trike. What sort of bike would you build? C. The first time I did a bike tour, in 1987, I decided at the last minute to go do s bikr tour, so I went to REI, bought their new 21 speed Novara hybrid, and took it to LAX. Air New Zealand was kind enough not to charge for oversize baggage since the bike was in the box. When I arrived in Auckland I took a bus to the Penny Farthing bike shop where the owner helped me assemble it. At first i had no idea how to use the gears and had terrible cramps, but I hung in there, ate lots of Kiwi fruit and ended up in the best shape since I was in the Navy. We have a facility in Santa Monica called Bikerowave, where they provide tools and assistance to build your own bike. I'll start with a 49 or 50 cm aluminum frame and probably go with three gears and onebrake. I have a long torso and relatively short arms and legs, so I'll add a short stem to accommodates my 31 inch arms. I plan to get the same kind of handle bars as on a messenger bike. I thought about getting a quick release rear hub with a low and medium gear ratio, but I want to be able to freewheel down those hills. I plan to travel as light as possible with a bivouac sac, lightweight sleeping bag, thermorest, an anorak for when it rains, cargo shorts and vest with lots of pockets for my ipod, torch, bicycle tool, spoke wrench, tube repair kit, mirror, and various items. i haven't decided what i will bring for Internet access. Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bike Tour in New Zealand
On 31/10/2008, at 7:59 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote: The first time I did a bike tour, in 1987, I decided at the last minute to go do s bikr tour, so I went to REI, bought their new 21 speed Novara hybrid, and took it to LAX. Air New Zealand was kind enough not to charge for oversize baggage since the bike was in the box. When I arrived in Auckland I took a bus to the Penny Farthing bike shop where the owner helped me assemble it. At first i had no idea how to use the gears and had terrible cramps, but I hung in there, ate lots of Kiwi fruit and ended up in the best shape since I was in the Navy. We have a facility in Santa Monica called Bikerowave, where they provide tools and assistance to build your own bike. I'll start with a 49 or 50 cm aluminum frame and probably go with three gears and onebrake. I have a long torso and relatively short arms and legs, so I'll add a short stem to accommodates my 31 inch arms. I plan to get the same kind of handle bars as on a messenger bike. I thought about getting a quick release rear hub with a low and medium gear ratio, but I want to be able to freewheel down those hills. I plan to travel as light as possible with a bivouac sac, lightweight sleeping bag, thermorest, an anorak for when it rains, cargo shorts and vest with lots of pockets for my ipod, torch, bicycle tool, spoke wrench, tube repair kit, mirror, and various items. i haven't decided what i will bring for Internet access. Interesting. I don't have time to respond right now 'cause I'm just about to hop on my own iron horse to head to work (a mere 7 miles...) but I've got a few comments and suggestions. I'll respond tonight or tomorrow! How long are you planning to be touring? 'cause packing for a two week tour is very different from packing for 10 months on the road! Charlie Who Has Spent Ten Months On The Road Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some rules, of course, if the aim is universal health care. That doesn't make the government the provider or administrator of the service. If all the money has to go through the government, it is inevitable that a large and complicated set of rules will be created, modified, amended, and grown to frightening degree. These rules will constrain both the suppliers and the consumers, and will effectively result in inefficient government control of health care. It will create a system devoid of the give and take of consumers shopping around trying to find the best supplier for what they need at the best price, and suppliers competing and innovating to provide the consumers what they need. Instead the government will oversee some bloated, generalized menu of products that does not meet the needs of many consumers and offers little incentive for the suppliers to innovate to meet the needs of the consumers. This is what happens when the government gets involved involved in a complicated system. There is no way for the government to replace the specific knowledge and time of millions of consumers and thousands of suppliers individually interacting in order to continuously evolve a system that meets the needs of all the players. Government can set rules without taking operational control of an industry. It could happen. So could a meteor taking out New York on Halloween. I'm not holding my breath. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 4:39 PM, John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: There is no way for the government to replace the specific knowledge and time of millions of consumers and thousands of suppliers individually interacting in order to continuously evolve a system that meets the needs of all the players. Which is why Obama's plan doesn't try to replace that knowledge, I suspect. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The complexity of affirmative action
Check out this response: The fact that we appear to be on the verge of electing the first African-American president, and that he has not inherited the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow supports this contention. Given this, I think the nation as a whole should look to the military for the means of implementing affirmative action effectively. From my understanding, goals for diversity have existed for years in the military, and have been achieved without sacrificing quality. The military expects all to meet the standards it sets, and works with young officers to help them meet the requirements to rise in the ranks. This is the model I think we should use: no quotas, no lowered standards, but measure diversity and work with underrepresented groups to help them be successful candidates for higher positions. The chance of an African-American becoming president of United States has stirred the old comments of the power of affirmative action and the complexity of racism and the American inheritance and legacy of slavery and Jim Crow. I have often avoided this subject and left it to those types so dense to indicate that Sarah Palin is more qualified than Barack Obama. This amazing insanity is what American racism is all about. This obvious reality of racism deny histories of academic excellence [one taking over seven years to complete a mix of junior college courses and some unknown unnamed colleges at GPA scores around the “D” is held more qualified for the job of USA President than one completing timely degrees at such prestigious colleges as Columbia University and Harvard University with cum laude distinction in a course of constitutional law with a distinction as President of Harvard Law review]. Don’t mention or know that Barack Obama is of African-American descent and we come to understand such hair-brain analysis which ignore all the facts contained on a person’s resume and go to a pre-dispose reality of American White Racism. See man and myth and the religion of racism. With this thesis “a person with a GPA who demonstrated a serious problem with completing a course of study in a mixed junior/unnamed senior colleges at probable 2.0 and below is more qualified for president than one who graduated beyond the top 10% cum laude at Harvard University” We can go anywhere with this idea of racism and the door to ingsoc is what we have. There is no argument on any level in such an environment because the premise that “what is white is right” is a premise for all analysis which does away with the analysis of Obama achievements, the academic achievement of McCain as prerequisite to become president or that of George Bush [i.e. Sarah Palin if you will]. The academic understanding of the US Constitution, Economics, or even the arguments which they propose as a credible analysis of socialism and communism is not a requirement. This dismiss The argument of academic excellence as a prerequisite to becoming a president of US. Let us say that this job is reserved for the gentleman farmer like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson. We may selectively dismiss the fact that either farmer are masters of the tobacco plantations with the lower forty planted in some good marijuana. We may dismiss the facts that their plantation is run by slaves and they are actually the most evil portends against freedom although they spout words about the freedom of all man kind. We may dismiss the fact that man kind must now become something called non-human and the source of dehumanization and jim crow are simply platitudes to cover their contradictions. These same men may have dismissed human labor as their property. The titles to all the wealth which their children inherit are contraband when measured by the principles or justice. A thief can not pass good title however, these folk wish to claim the wealth of the nation much of which find its basis in the slave trade. Now these plantation type gentlemen farmers have contributed to the over throw of the yolk of the British and are symbolic of the office of president we see that they had a mix of academic excellence in their pedigree in many cases more so than -in-chief aspect of the office and just the look of academic preparedness has been enough. not. The president breed placed the premium on the commander in Chief. This is a natural response and logical but racism trump this requirement as we can see from the history of the office of the president. This election show this superior position of racism over the evaluation of the candidate qualification based upon their military experience. http://www.dualj.org/bookstore/item_details.aspx?ItemID=0805942521 John McCain had the most experience and family tradition in this area is we excuse some of his military blunders which show his standing in his graduating class, crashing his jets, and becoming prisoner of war. These are clearly major blunders which would get the black pilot
Re: correct geography nomnclaturee
Jon Louis Mann wrote: thanks for the correction, alberto. what part of the netherlands is holland? The most important part: Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, etc are in Holland. Now there are two: Northern Holland and Southern Holland. is it correct to call natives of the netherlands, dutch? jon Yes, but I think there is no useful adjective relative to Holland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (was: the same topic all damn week)
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Which is why Obama's plan doesn't try to replace that knowledge, Of course the plan doesn't STATE that it will do so. But every time the government bureaucracy gets involved in a system, a complicated set of rules and regulations begins accreting in a vain and ultimately doomed attempt to do just that. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Another fine mess results from government's attempts to regulate
http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/23882.html Transit Agencies in Bind Due to SILO Deals and AIG Collapse by Joseph Henchman Federal Officials Encouraged Leasebacks, Then Made Them Worthless for Creditors Introduction Major newspapers are reporting on a financing crisis that is hitting many transit systems in the United States late this month. The situation is a result of (1) a series of leaseback transactions these agencies conducted which included heavy termination penalties, (2) federal policy first to encourage and then to discourage them, and (3) the collapse of insurer AIG. As a result, approximately 30 agencies nationwide may face serious financial shortfalls absent action by the U.S. Treasury Department.1 On October 29, 2008, the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA) sought an injunction in U.S. District Court against KBG Group, a Belgian bank that is demanding $43 million in termination fees by October 31.2 Metro warned that unless the injunction was granted, the agency might be forced into default. . Conclusion Broadly, this shows some of the problems with the federal budgeting process, whereby tax cuts are seen as more palatable than spending even in a case where they are pretty much the same thing. Federal transportation officials wanted to encourage transit capital projects but not to fund them on the spending side, so they championed the use of SILO financing, in effect funding them through the federal tax code. Treasury never favored the arrangement, and in late 2003 they prevailed. By reversing course, the federal government stopped providing a flow of taxpayer funds that were being split between local transit agencies and private investors. That left the existing agreements without a source of funding and it gave the banks who had already signed SILO deals every reason to try to get out of them. With the failure of AIG, the banks are now presenting their demands to local transit officials who had foolishly signed contracts with termination fees they knew they couldn't pay. In the short term, it's hard to say what the best option is. The SILO deals are a tax shelter, and it's likely that the U.S. Treasury won't support any action that doesn't unwind these deals. Also, more and more people are beginning question the number of obligations the federal government is guaranteeing. Bankruptcy protection is possible, but a bankruptcy court would likely prioritize continued operation of the transit systems over allowing creditors to seize assets they technically own. At the same time, these agencies just don't have the cash to terminate these agreements into which they freely entered. The agencies are seeking congressional and Treasury help and it is from there that the next move will come ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Health Care (the same damn topic all f-ing week!~)
Which is why Obama's plan doesn't try to replace that knowledge, Of course the plan doesn't STATE that it will do so. But every time the government bureaucracy gets involved in a system, a complicated set of rules and regulations begins accreting in a vain and ultimately doomed attempt to do just that. any idea why that is? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
nomnclaturee
is it correct to call natives of the netherlands, dutch? jon Yes, but I think there is no useful adjective relative to Holland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland Alberto Monteiro hollandaise? netherlanders? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Health Care costs (same F-ing topic all damn week)
These rules will constrain both the suppliers and the consumers, and will effectively result in inefficient government control of health care. It will create a system devoid of the give and take of consumers shopping around trying to find the best supplier for what they need at the best price, and suppliers competing and innovating to provide the consumers what they need. Instead the government will oversee some bloated, generalized menu of products that does not meet the needs of many consumers and offers little incentive for the suppliers to innovate to meet the needs of the consumers. This is what happens when the government gets involved involved in a complicated system. There is no way for the government to replace the specific knowledge and time of millions of consumers and thousands of suppliers individually interacting in order to continuously evolve a system that meets the needs of all the players. Government can set rules without taking operational control of an industry. quantum computers? jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
I hope McCain is right
I just read this: John McCain, predicting we may be up late on Election Day, told FOX News on Thursday that he intends to surge in the final hours of his underdog presidential campaign. I hope it peaks out at just about mid-day next Tuesday. I'm thinking he'll peak on Tuesday because he'll be irrelevant on Wednesday. ;-) Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care (the same damn topic all f-ing week!~)
Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] any idea why that is? Human nature, I guess. Many people think that they know more than they do, and therefore believe that they can design (or fix) an extremely complicated system when there is really no chance to do so. People don't trust an emergent system, it is too abstract to accept that millions of people individually interacting can actually result in a more efficient solution to a problem than having a strong leader and authority figure in control. Also, I imagine many people find it comforting to have a paternal figure (or figures) in control, guiding and protecting us. It was nice when we were 9 years old, anyway. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Bike Tour in New Zealand
How long are you planning to be touring? 'cause packing for a two week tour is very different from packing for 10 months on the road! Charlie Who Has Spent Ten Months On The Road Maru you have me beat by several months. any advice would be greatly appreciated. the first time i did this i had way too much stuff qhich i ended up getting rid of and eating raw a lot. i would wash my clothes and let them dry on me, so i wasn't carrying a lot of dirty laundry. i layered if it got cold. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care (the same damn topic all f-ing week!~)
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:06 PM, John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: People don't trust an emergent system, it is too abstract to accept that millions of people individually interacting can actually result in a more efficient solution to a problem than having a strong leader and authority figure in control. I think that will come with time, but not quickly. Medieval people didn't trust feedback-based systems; now we worship them (democracy, Darwinism, free markets, etc.). There's a huge leap from one to the next. Self-regulation seems impossible when you believe the universe functions as a hierarchy. Self-organization seems impossible when you believe the universe is nothing more than feedback loops. The trouble with trusting a self-organizing system is that we don't have very good mathematics to analyze and predict what they'll do. We certainly know that complex systems of the kind you describe tend to be chaotic, with unpredictable attractor states. I certainly wouldn't want trust our health care system to avoid extrema and attractors that would be unfair to the vulnerable among us. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Another fine mess results from government's attempts to regulate
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:00 PM, John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Major newspapers are reporting on a financing crisis that is hitting many transit systems in the United States late this month. The situation is a result of (1) a series of leaseback transactions these agencies conducted which included heavy termination penalties, (2) federal policy first to encourage and then to discourage them, and (3) the collapse of insurer AIG. Uh, how, exactly, did the government collapse AIG? Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care (the same damn topic all f-ing week!~)
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] The trouble with trusting a self-organizing system is that we don't have very good mathematics to analyze and predict what they'll do. We certainly know that complex systems of the kind you describe tend to be chaotic, with unpredictable attractor states. It is obvious that no system is perfect. No matter whether it is a centrally controlled system, or a completely decentralized system, there will be decisions made by people, and people do make mistakes. I'd rather have a fault-tolerant system that tends to evolve toward greater efficiency. With central control, the mistakes tend to be coordinated and are capable of destabilizing the entire system. With a diverse, decentralized system, there will be plenty of mistakes, but they will tend to be uncorrelated and while you may see some local failures, most of the system will continue unabated. And as a bonus, the decentralized system is effectively a massively parallel set of experiments that, through trial and error, can result in evolution towards a more efficient system. I certainly wouldn't want trust our health care system to avoid extrema and attractors that would be unfair to the vulnerable among us. Yes, I think people become emotional and irrational when it comes to health care, and can often end up making bad decisions. But I'd rather have a few thousand small, uncorrelated bad decisions than a small number of gigantic bad decisions. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Another fine mess results from government's attempts to regulate
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Uh, how, exactly, did the government collapse AIG? I don't know. How? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care (the same damn topic all f-ing week!~)
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 5:40 PM, John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: But I'd rather have a few thousand small, uncorrelated bad decisions than a small number of gigantic bad decisions. Since you mentioned emergence, I was thinking that perhaps you are familiar with the mathematics of complexity. Perhaps not. Even simple Boolean networks produce behaviors that I wouldn't want to trust with my health care! Thousands of small decisions don't just average out. They can produce wild behavior that is inherently unpredictable. They can cycle among attractor states, but those are also unpredictable. Further, there's a whole field of game theory that deals with a gamut of problems like this. One of the more efficient problem-solving solutions, generally speaking, is to divide the players into groups and let the groups compete with each other... something like states' rights, where each can imitate the ones who come up with a successful strategy. The more we can describe and rely on self-regulation and self-organization, the better, but I think only a fool rejects regulation and governance on principle. That's like refusing to adjust the time on a clock because the salesman said it is self-regulating. Or the guy who creates a derivative that tells him what time it is when the clock is wrong. ;-) Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care (the same damn topic all f-ing week!~)
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Even simple Boolean networks produce behaviors that I wouldn't want to trust with my health care! Even well-intentioned father figures can make decisions that I wouldn't want to trust with my health care. I trust myself, and a small number of people who have earned my trust. I certainly do not trust a bunch of politicians and bureacrats. Thousands of small decisions don't just average out. They can produce wild behavior that is inherently unpredictable. If they are coordinated, sure. That's what central control does. If the decisions are uncorrelated, then they DO average out. But that is probably not a useful way of thinking about a geographically diverse health care system, since what variable are you talking about that averages out? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: correct geography nomnclaturee
At 03:06 PM Thursday 10/30/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote: of course, holland, and other western countries, (...) troll The name of the country is The Netherlands. Holland is one part of it, which, unfortunately, has permeated western languages as the name of the whole country. In Portuguese, it's even awful. We use Holanda when we should use the horrible word Neerlândia. It's like calling the United Kingdom England or the USA Florida-Ohio. /troll Alberto Monteiro thanks for the correction, alberto. what part of the netherlands is holland? is it correct to call natives of the netherlands, dutch? Mom Dad http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/10/30/netherlands.baby.boom/index.html?imw=Yiref=mpstoryemail . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Happy Halloween!
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/images/image-details.cfm?imageID=3293msource=ecard100606 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care (the same damn topic all f-ing week!~)
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 6:02 PM, John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Thousands of small decisions don't just average out. They can produce wild behavior that is inherently unpredictable. If they are coordinated, sure. That's what central control does. If the decisions are uncorrelated, then they DO average out. No. Not when they influence each other. You referred to emergence, but there are no emergent properties when decisions average out. But in reality, such networks of decisions always have emergent properties. Am I correct in assuming you are unfamiliar with the mathematics of complexity? Try this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_systems Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care (the same damn topic all f-ing week!~)
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] No. Not when they influence each other. You referred to emergence, but there are no emergent properties when decisions average out. But in reality, such networks of decisions always have emergent properties. Why do you think the coordination will be greater with an decentralized system than with government control? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Single payer health care
Hi there, Behind on email, but resurfacing for a bit to see if we can perhaps accomplish in a few posts what we went through in a semester class on healthcare delivery. For quite a few of us, the Aussie system was a favorite/great compromise. The systems for many countries are often lumped together in a general way, but some of the nuances are lost to sound bytes. To start the discussion off and overly generalize (but I know I can count on everyone to keep me straight), the Aussie system has a fundamental level of care for everyone, and a spoke/wheel/catchment area philosophy for special tests (such as MRIs). Plans can be upgraded by paying a supplement. I don't recall the medication plan specifically, but do recall vision, non generics, dental could all be upgraded. back to catching up, Dee (yup, still posting from evil AOL formatting and hoping for the best) **Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav0001) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care costs (same F-ing topic all damn week)
Jon wrote It will create a system devoid of the give and take of consumers shopping around trying to find the best supplier for what they need at the best price, and suppliers competing and innovating to provide the consumers what they need. Instead the government will oversee some bloated, generalized menu of products that does not meet the needs of many consumers and offers little incentive for the suppliers to innovate to meet the needs of the consumers. While I think innovation is lovely, there is another evolution you may not be aware of- Community based research networks. Instead of one group doing research over time with relatively slow advances, groups work collaboratively. The great example is the 6ish cancer research networks in this country- instead of taking years to research drugs/methodology, multiple hospitals gather info on large groups of diverse client populations in a short time and more rapid advances can be made. It is a pretty neat alternative to more competitive medicine that was trending proprietary. Dee **Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/10075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav0001) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Single payer health care
While I think innovation is lovely, there is another evolution you may not be aware of - Community based research networks. Instead of one group doing research over time with relatively slow advances, groups work collaboratively. The great example is the 6ish cancer research networks in this country - instead of taking years to research drugs/methodology, multiple hospitals gather info on large groups of diverse client populations in a short time and more rapid advances can be made. It is a pretty neat alternative to more competitive medicine that was trending proprietary. Dee sweet!~) Behind on email, but resurfacing for a bit to see if we can perhaps accomplish in a few posts what we went through in a semester class on healthcare delivery. For quite a few of us, the Aussie system was a favorite/great compromise. The systems for many countries are often lumped together in a general way, but some of the nuances are lost to sound bytes. To start the discussion off and overly generalize (but I know I can count on everyone to keep me straight), the Aussie system has a fundamental level of care for everyone, and a spoke/wheel/catchment area philosophy for special tests (such as MRIs). Plans can be upgraded by paying a supplement. I don't recall the medication plan specifically, but do recall vision, non generics, dental could all be upgraded. Back to catching up, Dee (yup, still posting from evil AOL formatting and hoping for the best) Neat and succinct, you're forgiven for posting from evil AOL!~) If Mc Cain wins I may have to move to aus! Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care (the same damn topic all f-ing week!~)
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 7:11 PM, John Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Why do you think the coordination will be greater with an decentralized system than with government control? I dunno. I didn't even know that I thought that. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Health Care (the same damn topic all f-ing week!~)
Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] I dunno. I didn't even know that I thought that. If you are concerned about chaotic effects in a complicated system with coordination between the elements, then why do you think government control will result in less instability if you don't think it will have less coordination between the elements? Do you imagine that government regulaltion will eliminate the chaos? That would be putting an awful lot of faith in government regulation. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
