Re: On Listmail
Kevin said: But your point about Facebook and Twitter may be correct, to some degree. The unfortunate thing about that is neither medium is worth a damn for any serious conversation. I am not in Dan Minette's league, as 3-4 paragraphs into an e-mail I start to run out of steam, but you simply cannot talk intelligently at 140 characters per message. I've had some quite serious discussions on Facebook using comments attached to statuses or posted items. I'm not sure what the maximum length of Facebook comments is but it's certainly much more than 140 characters. Rich ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: On Listmail
As far as where everyone's been, the Sharkey scions are in the prime of their doing lots of activities ages right now. Between dance, baseball, softball and Boy Scouts there's barely a moment for plain old family time, let alone lengthy discussions on the pros and cons of the Arizona immigration law and the like. I do always check for list mail, though, in case something interesting happens! Jim ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Doug Pensinger brig...@zo.com wrote: If anything good is to come out of this disaster, its that we'll be taking a closer look at offshore drilling, and that nobody will even be suggesting that we rape the California coast for a few buckets of oil. I've seen people seriously speculating that anti-drilling people, perhaps directed by the White House, sabotaged the platform, to cause the spill, so that drilling would slow down or stop. There is no end to the conspiracy. On a more rational note, DB commented that every well should have a deadman switch, so to speak - a device that shuts off the flow if it doesn't continuously receive a signal. Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me that something like that would be in place if it were practical. Anybody know? Why not an automatic shut-off valve? Is it perhaps that some oil is under so much pressure that once it starts flowing, there's no stopping it as a practical matter? Nick ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Apprehension, was listmail
This list may have somewhat of the same kind of problem science fiction does in general. The problem is runaway technology. Think of how long painting and story telling lasted. Movies are still using film, but that's rapidly coming to an end VHS tape is about gone after decades. DVD replaced them and after single digit years is being replaced by Blue Ray, which in turns is going away in favor of Internet transmission. The concept here leads to the singularity, of nanotechnology and weakly godlike AI. I see no way to avoid it. It doesn't matter if humans manage to keep up with advancing technology or wind up relating to our successor the way cats do to humans. Things are going to change radically and it's likely this change will happen before mid century. This offers, for example, an explanation for the Fermi Question. There are lots of things to discuss, but very few people want to discuss such an unsettling future. Keith. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: On Listmail
I think they had one, but it's not working, and they don't know why. http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/ Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 07:11:07 -0700 Subject: Re: On Listmail From: nick.arn...@gmail.com To: brin-l@mccmedia.com On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Doug Pensinger brig...@zo.com wrote: If anything good is to come out of this disaster, its that we'll be taking a closer look at offshore drilling, and that nobody will even be suggesting that we rape the California coast for a few buckets of oil. I've seen people seriously speculating that anti-drilling people, perhaps directed by the White House, sabotaged the platform, to cause the spill, so that drilling would slow down or stop. There is no end to the conspiracy. On a more rational note, DB commented that every well should have a deadman switch, so to speak - a device that shuts off the flow if it doesn't continuously receive a signal. Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me that something like that would be in place if it were practical. Anybody know? Why not an automatic shut-off valve? Is it perhaps that some oil is under so much pressure that once it starts flowing, there's no stopping it as a practical matter? Nick ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
Nick Arnett wrote: On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Doug Pensinger brig...@zo.com mailto:brig...@zo.com wrote: If anything good is to come out of this disaster, its that we'll be taking a closer look at offshore drilling, and that nobody will even be suggesting that we rape the California coast for a few buckets of oil. I've seen people seriously speculating that anti-drilling people, perhaps directed by the White House, sabotaged the platform, to cause the spill, so that drilling would slow down or stop. There is no end to the conspiracy. In an era where the Big Lie, Teach the Controversy, and balanced reporting are routine factors in the media and public discourse and we have people like Limbaugh and Beck trumpeting conspiracy theories constantly, I am 100% not surprised to hear people seriously considering a White House conspiracy to blow up an oil rig. On a more rational note, DB commented that every well should have a deadman switch, so to speak - a device that shuts off the flow if it doesn't continuously receive a signal. Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me that something like that would be in place if it were practical. Anybody know? Why not an automatic shut-off valve? Is it perhaps that some oil is under so much pressure that once it starts flowing, there's no stopping it as a practical matter? I thought such a device was installed and we are now learning that it was done poorly and/or improperly? Charges are currently flying over that very issue, no? --[Lance] -- GPG Fingerprint: 409B A409 A38D 92BF 15D9 6EEE 9A82 F2AC 69AC 07B9 CACert.org Assurer ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Apprehension, was listmail
On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Keith Henson hkeithhen...@gmail.com wrote: This list may have somewhat of the same kind of problem science fiction does in general. The problem is runaway technology. In other words, perhaps the list doesn't need us anymore. I've seen a lot of web sites like that. Nick ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Something quite, if not completely, different - Heading for Haiti
Nothing to do with the topic of the list (whatever that is) Two weeks from today I'll be heading to Haiti for a week with a medical team as its critical incident debriefer/chaplain. I've done a lot of crisis intervention and ministry, especially over the last five years, and I was a paramedic for about seven years (30 years ago!), and I have traveled into areas of extreme poverty and heard the local peoples' stories first-hand... but I must admit some apprehension about this trip. I've never been the person with the primary responsibility to look after an entire team's spiritual/emotional well-being. Not to mention listening to the locals who may be in need of an ear. A couple of my other skills may come in handy - amateur radio and French - but I'm not sure about that. I'll be taking along a dual-band HT (2-meter and 70-cm) and it apperas that there are a couple of operating repeaters, but I have no idea what they are being used for in terms of relief efforts, if anything. And I don't know what language people will be speaking on them. Could be French, which I might be able to keep up with (probably not, too rusty), could be Spanish (one of the repeaters was installed by the Santo Domingo amateur radio club), might be Kreyole (that's the preferrred spelling there, I'm told) or who knows, maybe English. I suspect that most of the people we'll encounter as patients will be Kreyole speakers, not French. We'll have translators. I've gotten a bunch of shots to bring all my vaccinations up to date - tetanus, diptheria, pertussis, hep A and B, typhoid. Got my doxycycline ready for malaria prophylaxis - decided not to take any of the other ones because the rest have neuro-psychiatric side effects and I'm crazy enough already. Wait, that's not exactly it. I'm taking this trip partly to honor the memory of my sister Lesley, who died suddenly in January. Lesley lived a large part of her life in the Caribbean. Given that stress (and it is much more complicated than just losing Lesley) and the fact that I'm the team's stress management leader, it seemed like a bad idea to take anything that would potentially add to my psychological load. I have a growing box of things to take along... If you're interested, here's the sponsoring organization: http://jordaninternationalaid.org/ You can even donate, if you like (and if you do, put Nick Arnett - Haiti in the Donation Purpose box), but I was able to cover my direct costs by having my business partner (I'm starting a new company these days) donate in lieu of a consulting fee, so I'm covered. Friends have also helped me to buy some new clothes equipment that will make the trip safer and more effective. Nick ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
On May 3, 2010, at 12:49 AM, Doug Pensinger wrote: Beyond that, you're right, we should stop using fossil fuels as quickly as is practicable. I favor large state and federal taxes on gas and oil to subsidize research and development on alternatives and the development of mass transit. Maybe in light of this debacle a few more people will see it my way. There was research on exactly that sort of strategy, a few decades ago. Then it went out of style and what research there was was starved of funding and allowed to die, and we went right back to the old habits. Wind/solar energy resources are still seen as hippie fringe science in the parts of the world where oil is still king, and oil production is still the vast majority of our energy investment. The problem is one of attitudes, and fickle and unstable ones at that. The large scale investment in alternative energy sources had support mainly because people had fresh memories of the 1973 oil embargo, and as soon as it looked like Saudi oil was back on the table, the support for developing alternative energy faded out and oil was back in business. As soon as people couldn't see anything scary right in front of their faces, they forgot the bigger picture. Proposing a fundamental change in how humans do anything is never easy, and always has to fight this tendency to go right back to old habits once immediate crises are over, especially given the conservative and refractory nature of upper level management in the oil industry. There are a lot of people who think the way you and I do (and we agree on a lot!), but entirely too few of them are in decision making capacities when it comes to this sort of thing .. A city built on rock 'n roll would be structurally unsound. -- Julie Maier ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: On Listmail
From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Nick Arnett Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 9:11 AM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: On Listmail On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Doug Pensinger brig...@zo.com wrote: If anything good is to come out of this disaster, its that we'll be taking a closer look at offshore drilling, and that nobody will even be suggesting that we rape the California coast for a few buckets of oil. I've seen people seriously speculating that anti-drilling people, perhaps directed by the White House, sabotaged the platform, to cause the spill, so that drilling would slow down or stop. There is no end to the conspiracy. On a more rational note, DB commented that every well should have a deadman switch, so to speak - a device that shuts off the flow if it doesn't continuously receive a signal. Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me that something like that would be in place if it were practical. Anybody know? I do. I happen to know a decent amount about the rules and regulations concerning this. They are quite strict, and cover everything folks could think of. If what I'm hearing from a _very_ well placed source on what is known about what happened is right, this will turn out to be a black swan event. Reasons for it are speculative right now, and I won't say one way or the other in a list that turns up in Google searches who I think might have done something wrong, but we do know some things. From what I've heard, there were two independent cutoffs; either one of which should have been sufficient. They are a mile below the water, so the explosion at the surface is not the likely cause for them not tripping. My memory of blowout prevention is that there are two means of the cutoffs being triggered; one automatic, and one switched. The switch has been pulled a zillion times, both remotely and from subs right at where the well comes out of the ground. No dice. I have heard that the bottom casing came out at the surface. The casing is the steel pipe that's cemented into place in the borehole to allow the pumping of oil from the horizontal section of the well (I haven't read, but would bet $100 to $1 that this well was highly deviated and if not horizontal at the bottom, it wasn't only because the producing bed was tilted and it was following the tiltso call it horizontal. So, whatever happened is something my source said he would have bet his house would be impossible: casing pushed to the surface by gas pressure. First, the casing should have been held in place by the cement (think of pulling rebar out of a piece of concrete from a chuck of, say, a collapsed bridge). Second, the casing is torqued together, and the gas pressure isn't a torquing pressure, so I'd guess tons of casing would have had to make it to the surface. Under those conditions, I can imagine damage to the cut-offs. No one could have envisioned, after already drilling the well and measuring all the downhole pressures, that during well changeover, there'd be enough pressure to push that much drill pipe outand that the drill pipe wouldn't be held by the cement. 11 people died. Most lived, so the problem wasn't that the cutoff could not be triggered because the guy who could do it died. In fact, both cutoffs were triggered repeatedly, and neither worked. No one knows for sure, but I'd put money on both cutoffs being damaged, not by the gas, but by the casing going up. BTW, I bet the rig was running intrinsically safe. The rules for running that way are very strict; a normal computer is not intrinsically safe; a 6 volt battery isn't, etc. Making an intrinsically safe computer requires an air tight box, so any possible spark from the computer couldn't reach the open air. IIRC, the biggest voltage/amperage allowed would be far below the threshold for the smallest spark possible.But, push casing 6 miles up through earth and ocean and have it break and fall on the rig, and you have a spark, and that's all she wrote. But, having this happen boggles the mind. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
On May 3, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Dan Minette wrote: No one could have envisioned, after already drilling the well and measuring all the downhole pressures, that during well changeover, there'd be enough pressure to push that much drill pipe outand that the drill pipe wouldn't be held by the cement. Wait .. drill pipe, or casing? Looked like they were in the process of casing the well to get it ready for production, which would mean casing, in which case you're absolutely right about the magnitude of the forces involved and what they'd do to the cutoffs and blowout preventers at the underwater wellhead. Unless the casing wasn't set right, or the cement hadn't cured enough .. There is a fundamental difference between the mythical imagery we apply to reality and the reality itself. -- Me ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: On Listmail
Wait .. drill pipe, or casing? Everything I read as well as what I heard from a well placed source says casing. The WSJ is discussing a bad cement job as the cause, as are a number of other papers. What I've heard from my source is 100% consistent with the well having been cased and cemented. Indeed, the source was talking about it happening during the changeover in mud fluids to salt water. I presume the pressure was kept in check by heavy mud before, but once it is cased and cemented, the casing and the cement should hold back the pressure differential between 16k psi of salt water (IIRC, it' was below 30k feet), and the gas. I haven't read the last casing size, but making reasonable guesses from what I read, we're talking about at least 3/4 thick pipe. I'm guessing an ID of 3.5. If they were really good at drilling, maybe 6 ID and 7 3/4 OD.but that's about as big as I could imagine with that kind of depth. Looked like they were in the process of casing the well to get it ready for production, which would mean casing. I'm pretty sure it was after that, and this is _really_ critical. If my understanding is correct, they were switching the wellbore fluid to salt water in preparation for completing the well by shooting holes in the casing and the cement (perforating), to allow the oil to flow. Since they measured pressures on the way down, they knew where all the high pressure zones were, and could just perforate the oil zones (natural gas is so cheap and abundant, it's not worth producing in an expensive well right now its like $25 dollar/barrel oil). But, they hadn't gotten that far. I think (speculation) that once the heavy mud was gone, the pressure was enough to break the casing away from the cement and send it up 6 miles. in which case you're absolutely right about the magnitude of the forces involved and what they'd do to the cutoffs and blowout preventers at the underwater wellhead. Unless the casing wasn't set right, or the cement hadn't cured enough .. I think that the cutoffs were designed for the pressures encountered. But, can you imagine how hard it would be to close the cutoffs if some steel pipe were still stuck in it? I don't know that's a fact, but I do know that the cutoffs were each designed to shut under enormous pressures. It's not that hard, you don't have to push back against the pressures, just go sideways. But, if you have a big steel pipe in the way, then you have problems. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
Bruce Bostwick wrote: Wind/solar energy resources are still seen as hippie fringe science in the parts of the world where oil is still king, Not everywhere. P = k v^3 Maru Alberto Monteiro ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: On Listmail
-Original Message- From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Doug Pensinger Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 12:50 AM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: On Listmail Hi Dan, I'm glad to see you're still around and that you've escaped Houston. Thanks, it's beautiful where we live. The problem with your suggestion is that, without only onshore production, and not counting the Alaska Wildlife Refuge, we only are left with about a quarter of the probable reserves. You used to argue that off shore drilling was safe, an argument that, as you have noted, has quite literally been blown out of the water. Drilling in a protected shore would be no different than drilling in Yosemite or Yellowstone. Well, I'm just pointing out that the California wants to protect the whole coast but has been happy driving cars with gas refined near Houston from offshore GOM. Why is the GOM shoreline so much lower in value the California shoreline? And, if you stop offshore drilling, you are left with fields deep in their decline. If you exclude the Alaska Wildlife Refuge and offshore, you're down 75% in recoverable oil. Basically, we'll be importing 90% of our oil. So, on shore only means soon importing 90% of our oil from Iran and Saudi, and Kuwait, and Nigeria... Dan M. If anything good is to come out of this disaster, its that we'll be taking a closer look at offshore drilling, and that nobody will even be suggesting that we rape the California coast for a few buckets of oil. Beyond that, you're right, we should stop using fossil fuels as quickly as is practicable. I favor large state and federal taxes on gas and oil to subsidize research and development on alternatives and the development of mass transit. Maybe in light of this debacle a few more people will see it my way. Doug Not in Anyone's Back Yard maru ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
Funny thing, there's an anti-wind power movement as well, borrowing many of the same arguments that anti-oil protesters use. -- Matt From: Dan Minette danmine...@att.net To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Mon, May 3, 2010 12:06:49 PM Subject: RE: On Listmail -Original Message- From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Doug Pensinger Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 12:50 AM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: On Listmail Hi Dan, I'm glad to see you're still around and that you've escaped Houston. Thanks, it's beautiful where we live. The problem with your suggestion is that, without only onshore production, and not counting the Alaska Wildlife Refuge, we only are left with about a quarter of the probable reserves. You used to argue that off shore drilling was safe, an argument that, as you have noted, has quite literally been blown out of the water. Drilling in a protected shore would be no different than drilling in Yosemite or Yellowstone. Well, I'm just pointing out that the California wants to protect the whole coast but has been happy driving cars with gas refined near Houston from offshore GOM. Why is the GOM shoreline so much lower in value the California shoreline? And, if you stop offshore drilling, you are left with fields deep in their decline. If you exclude the Alaska Wildlife Refuge and offshore, you're down 75% in recoverable oil. Basically, we'll be importing 90% of our oil. So, on shore only means soon importing 90% of our oil from Iran and Saudi, and Kuwait, and Nigeria... Dan M. If anything good is to come out of this disaster, its that we'll be taking a closer look at offshore drilling, and that nobody will even be suggesting that we rape the California coast for a few buckets of oil. Beyond that, you're right, we should stop using fossil fuels as quickly as is practicable. I favor large state and federal taxes on gas and oil to subsidize research and development on alternatives and the development of mass transit. Maybe in light of this debacle a few more people will see it my way. Doug Not in Anyone's Back Yard maru ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
*boggle* Peak Wind? --[Lance] Matt Grimaldi said the following on 5/3/2010 3:30 PM: Funny thing, there's an anti-wind power movement as well, borrowing many of the same arguments that anti-oil protesters use. -- GPG Fingerprint: 409B A409 A38D 92BF 15D9 6EEE 9A82 F2AC 69AC 07B9 CACert.org Assurer ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: On Listmail
Matt Grimaldi said the following on 5/3/2010 3:30 PM: Funny thing, there's an anti-wind power movement as well, borrowing many of the same arguments that anti-oil protesters use. I presume you are thinking of Nantucket lawsuits against offshore windfarms as one example Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
On May 3, 2010, at 1:47 PM, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Wind/solar energy resources are still seen as hippie fringe science in the parts of the world where oil is still king, Not everywhere. P = k v^3 Maru Alberto Monteiro You are correct, sir. ;) Go ahead and do it, you can apologize later. -- RADM Grace Hopper, 1906-1992 The sunset is an illusion, but the beauty is real. -- Richard Bach ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
On May 3, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Bruce Bostwick wrote: There was research on exactly that sort of strategy, a few decades ago. Then it went out of style and what research there was was starved of funding and allowed to die, and we went right back to the old habits. Wind/solar energy resources are still seen as hippie fringe science in the parts of the world where oil is still king, and oil production is still the vast majority of our energy investment. From twitter.com/timbray: BREAKING: Large Air Spill at Wind Farm. No threats reported. Some claim to enjoy the breeze (via @quikness) Dave ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
Lance wrote: ] Peak Wind? That's funny. We could almost work in a joke about breaking...uh, never mind. I had meant more along the lines: It hurts the environment It doesn't do all the good that they say it does It's unreliable as a power source It ruins the picturesque scenery It's just a big corporate takeover of our way of life You know, the basic run-of-the-mill FUD. -- Matt From: Lance A. Brown la...@bearcircle.net To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Mon, May 3, 2010 12:39:53 PM Subject: Re: On Listmail *boggle* Peak Wind? --[Lance] Matt Grimaldi said the following on 5/3/2010 3:30 PM: Funny thing, there's an anti-wind power movement as well, borrowing many of the same arguments that anti-oil protesters use. -- GPG Fingerprint: 409B A409 A38D 92BF 15D9 6EEE 9A82 F2AC 69AC 07B9 CACert.org Assurer ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Apprehension, was listmail
On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Keith Henson hkeithhen...@gmail.com wrote: The concept here leads to the singularity, of nanotechnology and weakly godlike AI. I see no way to avoid it. It doesn't matter if humans manage to keep up with advancing technology or wind up relating to our successor the way cats do to humans. Things are going to change radically and it's likely this change will happen before mid century. This offers, for example, an explanation for the Fermi Question. There are lots of things to discuss, but very few people want to discuss such an unsettling future. I'm certainly interested in discussing the future, the Fermi paradox, and the possibility of a technological singularity, and I'm sure many others are too. I don't think that is the root problem. I think because there are so many places that people can go to discuss issues now, that it is (ironically) much harder to find people to discuss things with - if that makes sense. IHere? Facebook? Twitter? LinkedIn? Wave? Buzz? Somewhere else? ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Question of the Day
Any troubledome out there figured out if Zanzibar is still the right size? ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Deepwater Horizon Catastrophe
There is an ongoing discussion on this topic on Dr.Brin's Facebook site. I'm not sure if this forward is verbal hyperbole designed to exaggerate the magnitude of the environmental catastrophe now known as Deepwater Horizon. The forward claims we have been fed a gusher of lies to minimize the planetary scale disaster now in progress in the Gulf, and claims it could blow out to 50,000 barrels a day (according to a not for public NOAA emergency report). The oil slick alone is the size of New Jersey. Pardon the length; I have paraphrased to some extent: It goes on to say this is not just a leak, and unless we find some way to stop the venting of the gigantic oil field in the Gulf (under 100,000 pounds per square inch of pressure) we may be looking at the end of all marine life on this planet. We have literally punched a hole into hell. In any case, I agree we need to stop all new oil exploration and start reducing burning fossil fuels, and worldwide carbon dioxide emissions. Governments need to put everything they've got into a crash program to conserve energy use and develop truly renewable energy sources as an alternative nuclear and other non-renewable energy. It should have been done twenty years ago. The burning of fossil fuels was already slowly killing the planet, causing inexorable rises in greenhouse gas levels that have done nothing but accelerate, despite the rampant disinformation campaign waged by oil industry toadies pretending to be real scientists. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: On Listmail
At 04:07 PM Monday 5/3/2010, Dave Land wrote: On May 3, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Bruce Bostwick wrote: There was research on exactly that sort of strategy, a few decades ago. Then it went out of style and what research there was was starved of funding and allowed to die, and we went right back to the old habits. Wind/solar energy resources are still seen as hippie fringe science in the parts of the world where oil is still king, and oil production is still the vast majority of our energy investment. From twitter.com/timbray: BREAKING: Large Air Spill at Wind Farm. No threats reported. Some claim to enjoy the breeze (via @quikness) Dave http://comics.com/ed_stein/2010-05-01/ ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Question of the Day
On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Ronn! Blankenship ronn_blankens...@bellsouth.net wrote: Any troubledome out there figured out if Zanzibar is still the right size? To stand on? john ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
