Probies (was: Local car heat-related child death)
Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: much snippage Anyway, I have some relevant experience in the area, and can tell you that the parents who only accidentally leave their kids in the car will torture themselves in ways that make Abu Ghraib and Gitmo look like preschool. nods That's what I thought. OTOH, as Warren wrote: I've got a long list of peeves along those lines. From my perspective an ungrateful, unappreciative parent -- one who does not recognize the innate worth of his own children -- is probably the least comprehensible entity I can imagine. Even sociopathic bomb-wielding terrorists I can understand; but a father who rejects his own flesh and blood on *any* level is skating the edge of being summarily sterilized. I find it astonishingly galling that there are so many men who casually sire and abandon. While my nuturing side feels that such broken men might be 'healed' with time and patience, my practical brain thinks selective sterilization would prevent a heck of a lot of misery in this world. Of course, who would I trust (besides myself and select friends) to wield that sort of power? I don't recall how _human_ Probationers were classified/sentenced (chimps and dolphins of course had to submit to the authority of the Uplift Board WRT breeding rights) in Himself's universe. Anybody? Debbi Selective Snippage Indeed Maru Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On Jul 12, 2005, at 6:46 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: I think those men consider babies that issue from their sexual escalades While some of them probably do drive Cadillacs, I think the word you want here might be escapades . . . :P Actually, the word I wanted was escalades, an intentional misspelling of escapades, intended to bring to mind a vehicle I associate with selfish males. Dave They were all in one accord Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
At 01:44 AM Wednesday 7/13/2005, Dave Land wrote: They were all in one accord Maru Send in the Clowns? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
Dave Land wrote: On Jul 12, 2005, at 6:46 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: I think those men consider babies that issue from their sexual escalades While some of them probably do drive Cadillacs, I think the word you want here might be escapades . . . :P Actually, the word I wanted was escalades, an intentional misspelling of escapades, intended to bring to mind a vehicle I associate with selfish males. Dave They were all in one accord Maru How many? Were there enough seatbelts for all of them? :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Biblical Humor (was: Re: Local car heat-related child death)
On Jul 13, 2005, at 11:09 AM, Julia Thompson wrote: Dave Land wrote: They were all in one accord Maru How many? Were there enough seatbelts for all of them? :) Yes. And there were twelve basketfuls of seatbelts left over afterwards. For those who don't know, They were all in one accord is part of the answer to the question When is a car first mentioned in the Bible? The rest of the answer is Acts 2:1. There is a whole batch of When is X first mentioned in the Bible? jokes. Baseball: In the BIG INNING. Tennis: When Joseph served in Pharaoh's court. and so forth Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
Julia Thompson responded when: Dave Land wrote: I don't believe that there is a need to punish them: they have already paid for and will continue to pay for their mistake (or malice) for the rest of their lives. Something that is the result of one moment of error, yes. Something ongoing, however, no. Deliberately doing something harmful to your child over a long period of time, that deserves some horrible punishment. (Especially as the people most likely to do that are also most likely not to feel the horrible sense of remorse for years and years.) We have had a lot of media coverage here lately with parents leaving kids in cars outside casinos. They have had to employ guards to go around checking cars! These are the sorts of people who need the horrible punishment. (let's face it, if you can't afford child care, you can't afford to gamble at a casino...) Cheers Russell C. --- This email (including any attachments) is confidential and copyright. The School makes no warranty about the content of this email. Unless expressly stated, this email does not bind the School and does not necessarily constitute the opinion of the School. If you have received this email in error, please delete it and notify the sender. --- GWAVAsig ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On Jul 11, 2005, at 10:52 PM, Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Jul 11, 2005, at 9:10 PM, Dave Land wrote: After Kevin died, following months of round-the-clock care and myriad details of which medication when and so forth, I remember waking up one night in a blind panic because I thought I hadn't remembered to take care of him that night. It was almost as bad as the experience of losing him in the first place. The sense of having abandoned him was almost unbearable. Of course, when my brain woke up and rejoined my body, I realized that Kevin certainly didn't need my help any more... I can imagine that fully-awake realization hurt at least as much as the moment of panic had, though I can't conceive the actual pain of it. Actually, not. It was a part of my healing, I think. Peggy had a dream not long after he died. During his last days, he clung to a pair of Mickey Mouse blankets -- always one in each hand -- and became quite incensed if either was taken from him, which happened from time to time as they needed washing. In her dream, she was in bed with him, and he dropped one of those blessed blankets on the floor. She leaned over the edge of the bed, scrounging around in the blackness trying to find it for him. She felt very upset that she couldn't find it for him, knowing how important they were to him. But he got her attention and told her It's OK. I don't need my blanket any more. That is one of her most treasured memories, which she took as a sign that he was OK now. Which is pretty much what I experienced once my brain woke up: he's OK now, he doesn't need me doing things for him. Thanks for letting me tell that story. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
At 01:02 AM Tuesday 7/12/2005, Russell Chapman wrote: Julia Thompson responded when: Dave Land wrote: I don't believe that there is a need to punish them: they have already paid for and will continue to pay for their mistake (or malice) for the rest of their lives. Something that is the result of one moment of error, yes. Something ongoing, however, no. Deliberately doing something harmful to your child over a long period of time, that deserves some horrible punishment. (Especially as the people most likely to do that are also most likely not to feel the horrible sense of remorse for years and years.) We have had a lot of media coverage here lately with parents leaving kids in cars outside casinos. They have had to employ guards to go around checking cars! These are the sorts of people who need the horrible punishment. (let's face it, if you can't afford child care, you can't afford to gamble at a casino...) Of course, in some of the cases of this sort, good judgement has been replaced by EtOH or something else . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On Jul 11, 2005, at 11:02 PM, Russell Chapman wrote: Julia Thompson responded when: Dave Land wrote: I don't believe that there is a need to punish them: they have already paid for and will continue to pay for their mistake (or malice) for the rest of their lives. Something that is the result of one moment of error, yes. Something ongoing, however, no. Deliberately doing something harmful to your child over a long period of time, that deserves some horrible punishment. (Especially as the people most likely to do that are also most likely not to feel the horrible sense of remorse for years and years.) We have had a lot of media coverage here lately with parents leaving kids in cars outside casinos. They have had to employ guards to go around checking cars! These are the sorts of people who need the horrible punishment. (let's face it, if you can't afford child care, you can't afford to gamble at a casino...) If the kids are discovered before they expire, I think there's not much deliberating that needs to be done before the kids are placed with families that will actually tend to them. People with addictions of various types don't need vindictive punishment, but they do need to experience the consequences of their actions, ideally in a way that doesn't cost a kid his or her life. Dave Land (Who becomes a very angry papa bear even when he sees people with kids in the car but not in child seats.) What? Me, codependent? Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On Jul 11, 2005, at 11:14 PM, Dave Land wrote: Dave Land (Who becomes a very angry papa bear even when he sees people with kids in the car but not in child seats.) I've got a long list of peeves along those lines. From my perspective an ungrateful, unappreciative parent -- one who does not recognize the innate worth of his own children -- is probably the least comprehensible entity I can imagine. Even sociopathic bomb-wielding terrorists I can understand; but a father who rejects his own flesh and blood on *any* level is skating the edge of being summarily sterilized. I find it astonishingly galling that there are so many men who casually sire and abandon. And those are the most extreme, obvious cases; there are plenty others available of neglect and abuse, however unwitting; what of the father who relentlessly drives his son into some activity, vicariously reliving his own youth without letting the kid form his personality on his own? Or the father who's there physically, but chilly and uncaring emotionally. Or the father who shakes his young child and admonishes the kid not to cry. I just don't understand how a parent's affection -- or what should be natural affection -- can get shorted out like that. And it's no good suggesting these were neglected themselves as children; such emotional damage can be present, yes, but it can also be worked with, healed, overcome. It seems abundantly clear to me that many people just breed without fully realizing what they're taking on, and don't want to invest the time and effort necessary to meet the responsibilities they've elected to undertake. A half-assed parent might not actually be preferable to *no* parent, provided a good solid support circle for the kids. And then there are those who have the temerity to suggest that *nonheterosexuals* are the ones who are de facto unfit to raise children. I'd better stop before I get totally irrationally enraged. :\ -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On Jul 11, 2005, at 11:08 PM, Dave Land wrote: Peggy had a dream not long after he died. During his last days, he clung to a pair of Mickey Mouse blankets -- always one in each hand -- and became quite incensed if either was taken from him, which happened from time to time as they needed washing. In her dream, she was in bed with him, and he dropped one of those blessed blankets on the floor. She leaned over the edge of the bed, scrounging around in the blackness trying to find it for him. She felt very upset that she couldn't find it for him, knowing how important they were to him. But he got her attention and told her It's OK. I don't need my blanket any more. That is one of her most treasured memories, which she took as a sign that he was OK now. Which is pretty much what I experienced once my brain woke up: he's OK now, he doesn't need me doing things for him. That's a truly remarkable story of closure and release. Might I suggest that it was the reverse which was the case; your dreams signified your own readiness to move on with your lives, to take a really large step into a world of healing? Thanks for letting me tell that story. Thanks for sharing it. It strikes me that such a story could well be of merit to other grieving parents, if you haven't related it already. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On 7/12/05, Warren Ockrassa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then there are those who have the temerity to suggest that *nonheterosexuals* are the ones who are de facto unfit to raise children. I'd better stop before I get totally irrationally enraged. :\ While I just finished working for a GOP candidate in a non-partisan city election, which ended in two ties - if my candidate had decided to contest the guy who was paid $10 for his vote in the runoff, my next candidate will be closer to my heart. It will feel real good to be volunteering for a Democratic candidate who is going up against Robert Talton. Talton is the Texas homophobe who almost got the Texas House to pass legislation to deny homosexuals adoption and foster parent status, revoke custody of those gays who presently had state kids, and charge Child Protective Services with conducting investigations into the sexual orientation of all prospective parents and foster parents. The Christian GOP controlled Texas House would have passed it except for some parliamentary maneuvering by a sharp Dem rep. at the end of the session. Was good to see one of the Houston Texas House Democrats give a blistering passionate all-American speech attacking a related bill when it seemed like the gay adoption bill had passed. Rep. Senfronia Thompson: I have been a member of this august body for three decades, and today is one of the all-time low points. We are going in the wrong direction, in the direction of hate and fear and discrimination. Members, we all know what this is about; this is the politics of divisiveness at its worst, a wedge issue that is meant to divide. Members, this issue is a distraction from the real things we need to be working on. At the end of this session, this Legislature, this Leadership will not be able to deliver the people of Texas, fundamental and fair answers to the pressing issues of our day. Let's look at what this amendment does not do: It does not give one Texas citizen meaningful tax relief. It does not reform or fully fund our education system. It does not restore one child to CHIP, who was cut from health insurance last session. It does not put one dime into raising Texas' Third World access to health care. It does not do one thing to care for or protect one elderly person or one child in this state. In fact, it does not even do anything to protect one marriage. Members, this bill is about hate and fear and discrimination. I know something about hate and fear and discrimination. When I was a small girl, white folks used to talk about protecting the institution of marriage as well. What they meant was if people of my color tried to marry people of Mr. Chisum's color, you'd often find the people of my color hanging from a tree. That's what the white folks did back then to protect marriage. Fifty years ago, white folks thought inter-racial marriages were a threat to the institution of marriage. Members, I'm a Christian and a proud Christian. I read the good book, and do my best to live by it. I have never read the verse where it says, gay people can't marry. I have never read the verse where it says, thou shalt discriminate against those not like me. I have never read the verse where it says, let's base our public policy on hate and fear and discrimination. Christianity to me is love and hope and faith and forgiveness-- not hate and discrimination. I have served in this body a lot of years-- and I have seen a lot of promises broken. I should be up here demanding my 40 acres and a mule because that's another promise you broke. You used a wealthy white minister cloaked in the cloth to ease the stench of that form of discrimination. So, now that blacks and women can vote, and now that blacks and women have equal rights-- you turn your hatred to homosexuals-- and you still use your misguided reading of the Bible to justify your hatred. You want to pass this ridiculous amendment so you can go home and brag-- brag about what? Declare that you saved the people of Texas from what? Persons of the same sex cannot get married in this State now. Texas does not now recognize same-sex marriages, civil unions, religious unions, domestic partnerships, contractual arrangements or Christian blessings entered into in this State-- or anywhere else on this planet Earth. If you want to make your hateful political statements then that is one thing-- the Chisum amendment does real harm. It repeals the contracts that many single people have paid thousands of dollars to purchase to obtain medical powers of attorney, powers of attorney, hospital visitation, joint ownership and support agreements. You have lost your way-- this is obscene. Today, you are playing to the lowest common denominator-- you are putting aside the real issues of substance that we need to address so that you can instead play on the public's fears and prejudices to deceive and manipulate voters into thinking that we have done something important. I realize that gay
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On 11 Jul 2005, at 11:52 pm, Deborah Harrell wrote: sigh Every summer, children die needlessly because of being left unattended in cars. (I suppose a number of dogs do too, but I didn't look that statistic up). Apparently transporting children in the trunk is getting popular too: http://tinyurl.com/boduu A mother driving from Alabama to Loudoun County forced two of her daughters, ages 8 and 10, to take turns riding in the trunk because the four-door sedan was cramped with three other passengers and a dog, authorities said yesterday. Cheryl Ann Schoonmaker, 38, has been charged with abuse and cruelty to children for allegedly rotating the two girls in and out of the trunk of the Nissan Sentra during the July 1 trip, which took more than eight hours. Schoonmaker was driving from Alabama, where she has relatives, to the Loudoun home of her ex-husband, the girls' father, said Kraig Troxell, spokesman for the Loudoun sheriff's office. Also riding in the car were the former couple's 12-year-old daughter, a 12-year-old family friend and an infant in a car seat. The incident was at least the third time in less than two months that local women have faced criminal charges after allegedly putting their children in car trunks. In June, a Frederick woman was charged with reckless endangerment after a police officer watched her help her 9-year-old son, her 3-year-old daughter and an 8-year-old friend into the trunk in a shopping mall parking lot. When the police officer pulled her over, the woman said the children had wanted to ride there. Earlier this month, Tamatha Parker, 33, of Quantico was charged with child abuse after Fredericksburg authorities accused her of locking her two 5-year-old children in the car trunk as punishment for misbehaving in a store. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
Warren Ockrassa wrote: It seems abundantly clear to me that many people just breed without fully realizing what they're taking on, and don't want to invest the time and effort necessary to meet the responsibilities they've elected to undertake. A half-assed parent might not actually be preferable to *no* parent, provided a good solid support circle for the kids. And then there are those who have the temerity to suggest that *nonheterosexuals* are the ones who are de facto unfit to raise children. I'd better stop before I get totally irrationally enraged. :\ Seems to me that if you're going to get enraged, those are very rational reasons. :\ Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Local car heat-related child death
Behalf Of William T Goodall The incident was at least the third time in less than two months that local women have faced criminal charges after allegedly putting their children in car trunks. In June, a Frederick woman was charged with reckless endangerment after a police officer watched her help her 9-year-old son, her 3-year-old daughter and an 8-year-old friend into the trunk in a shopping mall parking lot. When the police officer pulled her over, the woman said the children had wanted to ride there. When I was a kid I would have loved the chance to get to ride in the trunk. At least for the first 10 minutes or so... Then I think I would have realized it wasn't exactly a good idea or a particularly fun thing to do. Then again, being the youngest of 7 kids, I pretty regularly rode in the way back of the family station wagon and even remember one family trip where I got to lie on the floor of the car because there was no room in the seats. At least no one put their feet on me... - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Local car heat-related child death
Behalf Of Dave Land Thanks for letting me tell that story. Thanks for sharing. Even if it did just about make me break out into tears. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On Jul 12, 2005, at 12:49 AM, Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Jul 11, 2005, at 11:14 PM, Dave Land wrote: Dave Land (Who becomes a very angry papa bear even when he sees people with kids in the car but not in child seats.) I've got a long list of peeves along those lines. From my perspective an ungrateful, unappreciative parent -- one who does not recognize the innate worth of his own children -- is probably the least comprehensible entity I can imagine. Even sociopathic bomb-wielding terrorists I can understand; but a father who rejects his own flesh and blood on *any* level is skating the edge of being summarily sterilized. I find it astonishingly galling that there are so many men who casually sire and abandon. I think those men consider babies that issue from their sexual escalades to be nothing more than a messy byproduct of screwing, and their women's problem. I think that many do not actually realize that they are fathers. (It's not that they're stupid and don't know that they have sired, it is that they do not make the connection between siring and fatherhood.) And those are the most extreme, obvious cases; there are plenty others available of neglect and abuse, however unwitting; what of the father who relentlessly drives his son into some activity, vicariously reliving his own youth without letting the kid form his personality on his own? David Land, US Coast Guard Academy, Class of 1980. Sworn in July, 1976. Processed out November, 1976. Own life began shortly thereafter. I know whereof you speak, my brother. It's a funny thing, too. All my childhood, my personality of his own had to do with being pushed around (by bullies, parents, sometimes both in the same body) and being called weak. Astonishingly, I somehow found a strength through all that weakness and, in 1976, began living my own life. One of my favorite Peanuts cartoons has Charlie Brown giving the following advice: Be like the willow tree. Stand up for your right to go whichever way the wind blows. It's a zen thing. Or the father who's there physically, but chilly and uncaring emotionally. Or the father who shakes his young child and admonishes the kid not to cry. ... or I'll give you something to cry about. I just don't understand how a parent's affection -- or what should be natural affection -- can get shorted out like that. And it's no good suggesting these were neglected themselves as children; such emotional damage can be present, yes, but it can also be worked with, healed, overcome. It can, but I think we're dealing with multigenerational acculturation here. It's not just that Bob was neglected by Bert, so he neglects Buddy, it's that the whole B family system is based on a pattern of neglectful fathering. Like freed slaves who were born in captivity and stayed on the plantations after emancipation because they just didn't know any other way to live (a possibly apocryphal story, but I don't care, it helps me make my point). The Bs don't know any other way to parent, and who's got the time or inclination to teach them. They're just a bunch of rotten bastards, every one of them, anyway. It seems abundantly clear to me that many people just breed without fully realizing what they're taking on, and don't want to invest the time and effort necessary to meet the responsibilities they've elected to undertake. A half-assed parent might not actually be preferable to *no* parent, provided a good solid support circle for the kids. First, some people just screw without fully realizing what they're taking on. (I am sure that on more than one occasion, I had NO REAL IDEA who I was f***ing with!) And there's the whole babies are the coolest accessory for your new SUV crowd. And then there are those who have the temerity to suggest that *nonheterosexuals* are the ones who are de facto unfit to raise children. Just yesterday, I was talking to Gee, a gay friend of many years about having him entertain Ryan (who is 8, so babysit just doesn't seem to fit any more) while Peggy and I enjoy a night out. We talked about the absurdity of the presumed pedophilia of homosexuals as a part of the Gay Agenda[tm]. Gee likes men, not boys. He would be a great father, although he puts it how would Ryan like for his aunt Gee to come over and hang out with him. I'd better stop before I get totally irrationally enraged. :\ Seems pretty rational to me. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On Jul 12, 2005, at 12:52 AM, Warren Ockrassa wrote: That's a truly remarkable story of closure and release. Might I suggest that it was the reverse which was the case; your dreams signified your own readiness to move on with your lives, to take a really large step into a world of healing? I believe that. What others chose to call denial, we termed survival and healing. To hell with their theories. Thanks for letting me tell that story. Thanks for sharing it. It strikes me that such a story could well be of merit to other grieving parents, if you haven't related it already. We used to hang out with other members of the dead baby society, as my delicate flower of a wife puts it, and (when we weren't in our wickedly dark humorous moods) we shared our stories with others who may have found them helpful. I know that telling the stories helped us, so we have that to be thankful for. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
At 01:39 PM Tuesday 7/12/2005, Dave Land wrote: On Jul 12, 2005, at 12:49 AM, Warren Ockrassa wrote: On Jul 11, 2005, at 11:14 PM, Dave Land wrote: Dave Land (Who becomes a very angry papa bear even when he sees people with kids in the car but not in child seats.) I've got a long list of peeves along those lines. From my perspective an ungrateful, unappreciative parent -- one who does not recognize the innate worth of his own children -- is probably the least comprehensible entity I can imagine. Even sociopathic bomb-wielding terrorists I can understand; but a father who rejects his own flesh and blood on *any* level is skating the edge of being summarily sterilized. I find it astonishingly galling that there are so many men who casually sire and abandon. I think those men consider babies that issue from their sexual escalades While some of them probably do drive Cadillacs, I think the word you want here might be escapades . . . :P to be nothing more than a messy byproduct of screwing, and their women's problem. I think that many do not actually realize that they are fathers. (It's not that they're stupid and don't know that they have sired, it is that they do not make the connection between siring and fatherhood.) And some adult males¹ apparently believe that how many children they have with how many different women is a measure of their manhood, and take pride in how high the number is. _ ¹A function of age and body development only, not necessarily equivalent to the term men . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
At 06:45 AM Tuesday 7/12/2005, William T Goodall wrote: On 11 Jul 2005, at 11:52 pm, Deborah Harrell wrote: sigh Every summer, children die needlessly because of being left unattended in cars. (I suppose a number of dogs do too, but I didn't look that statistic up). Apparently transporting children in the trunk is getting popular too: http://tinyurl.com/boduu Isn't that why part of the back seat folds down, so people can get in and out of the trunk without getting wet when it's raining? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Local car heat-related child death
sigh Every summer, children die needlessly because of being left unattended in cars. (I suppose a number of dogs do too, but I didn't look that statistic up). http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_2850832 ...After squeezing his Dodge Ram 2500 into his parking place Saturday afternoon, McKay's exasperation at the awkwardly parked neighboring car turned to horror when he saw a little girl inside. Her eyes were closed and her head was tilted to one side. Hurrying to Mabry's door, he knocked...McKay said Mabry seemed confused when he asked her about the child in the car. They went together to the parking lot. When Mabry lifted the child out, McKay saw that the toddler's back was purple. Mabry was saying, 'No, no, no, no,' McKay said Sunday. You've got to understand. She was just so frantic. She could not believe the little girl was in the car. After Elizabeth was out of the car, McKay called 911 and went to Mabry's apartment, where Mabry told him Elizabeth was dead... Even in shade and with windows left cracked, the interior temperature rises quickly to dangerous levels. http://my.webmd.com/content/Article/108/108800.htm ...The mercury inside the car soared 40 degrees higher than outside temperatures, on average. Even on a sunny, 72-degree day, temperatures inside the car could reach 117 degrees Fahrenheit in an hour, say the researchers. Eighty-percent of that rise happened in the first 30 minutes... I can only imagine the horror of realizing that you've forgotten where or when you last saw a child who is supposed to be under your care. Debbi No Malice, Just Massive Stress Maru :( __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On Jul 11, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Deborah Harrell wrote: Every summer, children die needlessly because of being left unattended in cars. substantial snippage I can only imagine the horror of realizing that you've forgotten where or when you last saw a child who is supposed to be under your care. I've heard people say that parents who leave their kids in their cars should be insert your favorite horrible punishment here. I don't believe that there is a need to punish them: they have already paid for and will continue to pay for their mistake (or malice) for the rest of their lives. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
Dave Land wrote: On Jul 11, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Deborah Harrell wrote: Every summer, children die needlessly because of being left unattended in cars. substantial snippage I can only imagine the horror of realizing that you've forgotten where or when you last saw a child who is supposed to be under your care. I've heard people say that parents who leave their kids in their cars should be insert your favorite horrible punishment here. I don't believe that there is a need to punish them: they have already paid for and will continue to pay for their mistake (or malice) for the rest of their lives. Something that is the result of one moment of error, yes. Something ongoing, however, no. Deliberately doing something harmful to your child over a long period of time, that deserves some horrible punishment. (Especially as the people most likely to do that are also most likely not to feel the horrible sense of remorse for years and years.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On Jul 11, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Julia Thompson wrote: Dave Land wrote: On Jul 11, 2005, at 3:52 PM, Deborah Harrell wrote: Every summer, children die needlessly because of being left unattended in cars. substantial snippage I can only imagine the horror of realizing that you've forgotten where or when you last saw a child who is supposed to be under your care. I've heard people say that parents who leave their kids in their cars should be insert your favorite horrible punishment here. I don't believe that there is a need to punish them: they have already paid for and will continue to pay for their mistake (or malice) for the rest of their lives. Something that is the result of one moment of error, yes. Something ongoing, however, no. Deliberately doing something harmful to your child over a long period of time, that deserves some horrible punishment. (Especially as the people most likely to do that are also most likely not to feel the horrible sense of remorse for years and years.) I thought about writing about that, but wasn't sure what to say, as the variety of ways that people find to abuse their children are almost endless, and the circumstances that lead to kids left in cars equally so. I don't have any data on the percentages of kid-dying-in-hot-car incidents that turn out to be the result of parents habitually leaving them in the car vs. cases like the one here in Silicon Valley a year or two ago in which an all-too-harried dad forgot to drop junior off at child-care and went in to work, leaving the child in the car. I don't remember whether the child-care place called dad to ask where his kid was or whether they called mom... If I was the dad, I think I'd pretty well just shoot myself. After Kevin died, following months of round-the-clock care and myriad details of which medication when and so forth, I remember waking up one night in a blind panic because I thought I hadn't remembered to take care of him that night. It was almost as bad as the experience of losing him in the first place. The sense of having abandoned him was almost unbearable. Of course, when my brain woke up and rejoined my body, I realized that Kevin certainly didn't need my help any more... Anyway, I have some relevant experience in the area, and can tell you that the parents who only accidentally leave their kids in the car will torture themselves in ways that make Abu Ghraib and Gitmo look like preschool. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Local car heat-related child death
On Jul 11, 2005, at 9:10 PM, Dave Land wrote: After Kevin died, following months of round-the-clock care and myriad details of which medication when and so forth, I remember waking up one night in a blind panic because I thought I hadn't remembered to take care of him that night. It was almost as bad as the experience of losing him in the first place. The sense of having abandoned him was almost unbearable. Of course, when my brain woke up and rejoined my body, I realized that Kevin certainly didn't need my help any more... I can imagine that fully-awake realization hurt at least as much as the moment of panic had, though I can't conceive the actual pain of it. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
