Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
At 08:22 PM 12/18/2002 -0600 Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: According to labor statistics, productivity for American workers continues to climb. I can understand how that is measured for industries in which there is a measurable *thing* produced, such as cars or toasters, but how do those statistics get determined for nontangibles? Let's look at, say, software coders - how can you measure their productivity? Or is this a P2C2E (Process Too Complicated To Explain)? Sorry that I missed this when it first arrived. it must have come in while I was away on travel. Anyhow, the simplest measure of productivity is revenue from goods and services produced, adjusted for producer inflation, divided by labor hours worked.Producer Inflation measures the change in price received for a fixed-quality good or service over time. I suspect that this is how a lot of it works. If you need a more detailed answer, here is the productivity homepage: http://www.bls.gov/bls/productivity.htm JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Ronn!Blankenship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: donderdag 19 december 2002 8:03 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer) Thereby confirming what everybody knows: that government employees don't actually *produce* anything. (Produce in this case obviously refers to a positive contribution.) As a government employee here I am speaking, of this sound, this deaf'ning creaking. It's the thin ice on which you are walking, which makes the sound of which I'm talking. Even though that great is the temptation, speak not ill of the servants of the nation. For it is all of you that they do serve, it is your praise that they deserve. Jeroen Poetry On-line van Baardwijk LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
Erik wrote: working towards it). That thing is money = revenue = sales. Everything is fungible to an economist or a finance guy. So, to first order, I Forget all that other technical stuff! What does 'fungible' mean?! Lal GSV Confused ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Other than that, lines of code per coder per month might tell you something, maybe. Of course, you have to average that over the lifetime It's something very close to ~ 3 lines code / Day. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:13:02 -0500 On Thu, Dec 19, 2002 at 06:46:55PM -, Lalith Vipulananthan wrote: Erik wrote: working towards it). That thing is money = revenue = sales. Everything is fungible to an economist or a finance guy. So, to first order, I Forget all that other technical stuff! What does 'fungible' mean?! Interchangeable. Is it easier for you to post a question like that rather than surf to something like http://dictionary.com/ and find the answer? Well, he might not know about it? Lal, you can also try www.m-w.com for English Disctionary and Thesaurus access. Regards, Jon _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Jon Gabriel wrote: Forget all that other technical stuff! What does 'fungible' mean?! Interchangeable. Is it easier for you to post a question like that rather than surf to something like http://dictionary.com/ and find the answer? Well, he might not know about it? Lal, you can also try www.m-w.com for English Disctionary and Thesaurus access. Personally, I think Lal was just hoping Erik would come up with a definition as nasty as the word sounds just for the hell of it. Marvin Long VFP Or not. Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
Jon wrote: Forget all that other technical stuff! What does 'fungible' mean?! Interchangeable. Is it easier for you to post a question like that rather than surf to something like http://dictionary.com/ and find the answer? Well, he might not know about it? Lal, you can also try www.m-w.com for English Disctionary and Thesaurus access. Embarassingly enough, I knew about both of those already, but the word looked made up. Silly me for such a strange assumption. Lal GSV I Blame The Culture List ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: At 09:36 PM 12/18/02 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: Everything is fungible to an economist or a finance guy. Please! Watch your language! OK, what was the problem word, fungible or economist? ;) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
Lalith Vipulananthan wrote: Embarassingly enough, I knew about both of those already, but the word looked made up. Silly me for such a strange assumption. Lal GSV I Blame The Culture List And not your Xompitor? Doug Or however you spell it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
On Wed, Dec 18, 2002 at 08:22:30PM -0600, Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: According to labor statistics, productivity for American workers continues to climb. I can understand how that is measured for industries in which there is a measurable *thing* produced, such as cars or toasters, but how do those statistics get determined for nontangibles? Let's look at, say, software coders - how can you measure their productivity? My first reaction is -- every company produces a measurable thing (or is working towards it). That thing is money = revenue = sales. Everything is fungible to an economist or a finance guy. So, to first order, I would think productivity might reasonably be measured in dollars of revenue per worker. I'm sure there are lots of variations. The numerator could be revenue, gross profit, operating income, net income, etc. The denominator could be workers*hours, or maybe divided up into the type of work. But the key concept that I think you are looking for is the fungibility of labor in terms of something like revenues. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: According to labor statistics, productivity for American workers continues to climb. I can understand how that is measured for industries in which there is a measurable *thing* produced, such as cars or toasters, but how do those statistics get determined for nontangibles? Let's look at, say, software coders - how can you measure their productivity? 1) How many coders does it take to code up version X.Y of product Z? Compare that to the number of coders coding up the version released 5 years ago. 2) How many months does it take for the N coders to code up version X.Y of product Z? Compare that to the number of months needed to code up the version released 5 years ago. My impression from various things I've heard said is that releases are more frequent than they used to be, for products that regularly have new releases. This isn't just in the software industry, but in design production of some hardware products. DISCLAIMER: I'm throwing this out based on a very limited number of data points and some general conversation with someone a little more up on the state of the industries than I who has made generalized statements. Other than that, lines of code per coder per month might tell you something, maybe. Of course, you have to average that over the lifetime of a project, because close to the deadline, that number is going to increase. :) Or is this a P2C2E (Process Too Complicated To Explain)? If it's that complicated, it probably has a number of components to it that can be taken apart and analyzed, and a whole can be built up out of those. :) Adam C. Lipscomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Silence. I am watching television. - Spider Jerusalem LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this email, or even reading it, you have consented to allow me to drop by your house unannounced and help myself to whatever I want from your fridge, as well as cook me something tasty if there is nothing good to eat (quality of eats to be determined by myself, hereafter referred to as the Party of the First Part). REBUTTAL: If Adam Lipscomb shows up at my house unannounced to raid the fridge, he'd better not bitch about what's in it. Furthermore, the quality of Julia's cooking is not guaranteed, and it might just be a lot easier on everyone if he stopped and picked up something at Wendy's on the way here, if he takes either the 620 and US 79 route or the Louis Henna Blvd. route to get here, there being a Wendy's on the way in either case, the one on Louis Henna Blvd. being on the more convenient side of the road. (Taking 1825 to get here is *not* recommended until such time as the bridge construction on 1825 just east of 685 is complete, which is a pity because there's a Wendy's on 1825 on the more convenient side of the road, and taking 1825 is a lot less squirrely than taking Louis Henna Blvd. and then the mess of twisty roads after *that*.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: According to labor statistics, productivity for American workers continues to climb. I can understand how that is measured for industries in which there is a measurable *thing* produced, such as cars or toasters, but how do those statistics get determined for nontangibles? Let's look at, say, software coders - how can you measure their productivity? Or is this a P2C2E (Process Too Complicated To Explain)? That depends on the company. Some use lines of code. My last job had a web-based database where the managers decided what parts of the software to add/modify, then broke the work to do that into smaller chunks, and let the programmers assigned to do those tasks guesstimate a time to complete each one. Productivity is approximated by how many of those chunks get finished, and how long they take. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
On Wed, Dec 18, 2002 at 09:36:16PM -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: My first reaction is -- every company produces a measurable thing (or is working towards it). That thing is money = revenue = sales. Everything is fungible to an economist or a finance guy. So, to first order, I would think productivity might reasonably be measured in dollars of revenue per worker. My first reaction was more or less correct, I discovered after doing a little checking. Only it is hours worked rather than workers that is commonly used. Basically, productivity is a subset of GDP divided by hours worked. Here's a portion of a FAQ (more info at the link) from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics http://stats.bls.gov/lpc/lprfaq.htm 1. What is productivity and how is it measured by BLS? Productivity is a measure of economic efficiency which shows how effectively economic inputs are converted into output. Productivity is measured by comparing the amount of goods and services produced with the inputs which were used in production. Labor productivity is the ratio of the output of goods and services to the labor hours devoted to the production of that output. 2. What is the most commonly used productivity measure? Output per hour of all persons--labor productivity--is the most commonly used productivity measure. Labor is an easily-identified input to virtually every production process. In terms of cost, it represents about two-thirds of the value produced. 3. Why don't we measure productivity for particular groups, such as white collar workers? BLS productivity measures are based on aggregate national measures of outputs and inputs. These data sources do not provide the information BLS would need to construct occupational or state measures. There are also conceptual obstacles to disaggregating these national measures. For example, the output of a factory may require both white collar and blue collar inputs, and it is therefore unclear how to allocate the output to the two groups separately. 4. Is output in your output per hour measure for the business sector equal to Gross Domestic Product (GDP)? Business sector output is based on GDP, but includes only a subset of the goods and services included in GDP. The business sector comprises about 80 percent of GDP since it must exclude those portions of the economy for which productivity measures cannot be constructed. General government, the output of the employees of nonprofit institutions and private households, and the rental value of owner-occupied real estate are excluded. 5. How are labor hours calculated? The primary source of hours and employment data is the BLS Current Employment Statistics (CES) program, which provides data on total employment and average weekly hours of production and nonsupervisory workers in nonagricultural establishments. The Hours at Work Survey is used to convert the CES hours to hours at work by excluding all forms of paid leave. For nonmanufacturing sectors, all employees are assumed to work the same hours as nonsupervisory employees. In manufacturing, average weekly hours for nonproduction workers are developed from BLS studies which provided data on the regularly scheduled workweek of white-collar employees. Because CES data include only nonagricultural wage and salary workers, data from the Current Population Survey (CPS) are used for farm employment as well as for nonfarm proprietors and unpaid family workers. Government enterprise hours are developed from the National Income and Product Account estimates of employment combined with CPS data on average weekly hours. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
On Wed, Dec 18, 2002 at 09:19:07PM -0600, Steve Sloan II wrote: Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: According to labor statistics, productivity for American workers continues to climb. I can understand how that is measured for industries in which there is a measurable *thing* produced, such as cars or toasters, but how do those statistics get determined for nontangibles? Let's look at, say, software coders - how can you measure their productivity? Or is this a P2C2E (Process Too Complicated To Explain)? That depends on the company. Not really. As far as the BoLS is concerned, if the code doesn't become part of the GDP (i.e., get sold in some manner), then it doesn't count. So it is basically the same for all companies, dollars of product produced divided by hours worked. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for JDG (or anyone else with a good answer)
At 09:36 PM 12/18/02 -0500, Erik Reuter wrote: Everything is fungible to an economist or a finance guy. Please! Watch your language! --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
