Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Jacob Nancy Bloom via Callers]

See the link below for more information on the dance The Spanish Gypsy (or
Jeepsie), the song from which the tune for the dance came, and the 1623
play from which the song came, which had the title "The Spanish Gypsy".

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/lod/vol4/spanish_gipsy.html

I'll go out on a limb and make some historical pronouncements which cannot
be proven, but which seem most probable to me:

The dance title The Spanish Gypsy came from the dance being done to a tune
associated with the play The Spanish Gypsy.

The dance figure Gypsy got its name from the prevalence of the figure in
the dance The Spanish Gypsy.

The Morris dance figures whole-gyp and half-gyp were originally called
whole-gypsy and half-gypsy.  (Although parts of England had and ancient
tradition of seasonal dancing under the name Morris Dance, it seems likely,
from the nature of the dances, that the form of the Cotswold dance
traditions collected by Cecil Sharp only went back to the Elizabethan
period.)

I offer the above hypotheses to counter the claim that the dance term
"gypsy" was based on an ethnic stereotype.  Of course, even if I'm right
about these hypotheses, they have nothing to do with the fact that the term
"gypsy" offends some people, which we want to avoid.

Jacob



On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 5:47 PM, James Saxe via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

>
> Let me point out that the 1651 edition of Playford also
> includes a dance titled "The Spanish Jeepsie" (listed as
> "Spanish Jepsies" in the contents).  This dance has a similar
> figure to the one in "Cuckolds all a row":
>
> ... go all about your We. not turning your faces. ...
>
> In fact the second and third parts of "The Spanish Jeepsie"
> have
>
> ... go about your own as before ...
>
> So the figure occurs more often in that dance than it does in
> "Cuckolds all a row".
>
> I don't know of (and haven't looked for) any specific evidence
> linking "The Spanish Jeepsie" to the terms "half-gip" and
> "whole-gip" in Morris dancing.  I also don't know of (and
> haven't looked for) any evidence linking the choreography of
> "The Spanish Jeepsie" to anything that occurs in traditional
> Romani dancing (or it traditional Spanish dancing).
>
>

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Amy Wimmer via Callers]

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful replies. I have a much better
idea how to respond to this person now. I also have some changes to
make in my calling. I appreciate the education and elucidation.
Ignorance is not bliss.

I think that, for now, I will do my best to eliminate the word "gypsy"
from my calling vocabulary. The problem will come with dance names,
such as "Amy Asked for a Gypsy," which was one of two dances I called
last night that had a ladies gypsy. I will also refrain from
suggesting flirtation, as that is uncomfortable for many.

Ah, the joys of growing as a person and a caller!

-Amy

> On Oct 24, 2015, at 2:31 PM, via Callers  
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>> On 24 Oct 2015, at 19:52, Richard Hart via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
>> face, instead of back to back.
>
> This might be problematic for ECD dancers as Fried de Metz Herman "invented" 
> this figure. It is basically it is a reverse back to back ( dos-si-do), i.e. 
> fall back past partner (neighbour) right shoulder, step right and walk 
> forward to place.
>
> As mentioned, in square dancing you have a walk around corner/partner. This 
> is to all intents and purposes is a gypsy.
>
> Graham
> ___
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> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, janet via Callers wrote:
>
> Troll has an original meaning as a mean mythical creature, who,
> somewhere along the lines became associated with living under a
> bridge. In today's society a troll came to mean someone who reads
> computer forums, usually with malicious intentions. But even that has
> shifted so people refer to trolling the Internet as reading forums or
> posts without any intent to post at all.

Digressing a bit: dunno where you got this information, and because
language shifts, you may well be correct about the current meaning of
"troll".  However, speaking as someone who's been online for more than a
quarter-century, you are dead-wrong about the historical genesis.

If you look in a dictionary, you'll see that "troll" is also a fishing
term.  Originally, trolling online meant that you were fishing for
reactions, often maliciously but not necessarily.  Therefore troll as a
noun was a back-formation, someone who made a practice of trolling.
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, Lindsay Morris via Callers wrote:
>
> I don't think of it as a derogatory term.

Are you Romani?  As with other terms that are slurs against various
demographic groups, you don't get to decide what's derogatory or
offensive if you're not part of the group.  In many cases (e.g. "queer"
or "nigger"), terms that are acceptable or reclaimed for in-group usage
are still considered derogatory when used by other people.
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015, Brooks Hart via Callers wrote:
>
> How about "eddy"?

"What's the matter, Columbia?  You've eaten Eddie before."

Sorry, that's the first thing that popped into my head...
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Michael Barraclough via Callers]

Flirting - I try not to suggest that
Name - not worried what we call it
Suggestion - I sometimes call it 'eyeballs'. It works well.
-- 
Michael Barraclough
mich...@michaelbarraclough.com
www.michaelbarraclough.com



-Original Message-
From: Martha Wild via Callers 
Reply-to: Martha Wild 
To: Caller's discussion list 
Subject: Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"
List-Post: callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:36:40 -0700

I can see from this discussion that there is definitely merit in giving
this move a different name, though I had never thought of it as a
derogatory term before. I rather like the idea suggested in a previous
post of "eddy" because it is short and to the point and sounds different
from other calls. "Walk all around your neighbor/partner" is fine for a
walkthrough and as a description, but not very good for a quick reminder
when you'd rather be calling a lot less. 


Another move that one would have to rename is the "gypsy star". I have
personally always called the move "gypsy star" as "star wrong" - mostly
because if I say "gypsy star" there is always at least one couple in the
crowd that starts to gypsy and swing (eddy and swing?) instead of doing
the star. "Star wrong" is also short and to the point and emphasizes the
oddity of the star - two people backing up and two going forward. It
seems to get the job done.


Martha



On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:42 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:

> In square dance, the call "walk all around your left hand lady" is
> very close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left shoulder
> walk around.  A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw,
> but a Left Dosido.
> 
> Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or
> partner, may be able to replace the gypsy without generating any new
> terms.
> Rich
> Stafford, CT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers
>  wrote:
> 
> I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but
> face to
> face, instead of back to back.
> 
> As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos"
> means
> back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to
> face?
> Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't
> speak
> French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
> 
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
>  wrote:
> > Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what
> I expect to be
> > many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits
> (particularly
> > those reading the "digest" version).
> >
> 
> > Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group
> of callers (and
> > dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area
> caller had tried
> > rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected
> due to the
> > existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was
> of Romani
> > heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and
> satisfaction at it
> > being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss
> were it to be
> > renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything
> that might offend
> > but rather to show that there are many possible
> perspectives. I'd since
> > thought of other possible names and came up with these:
> >
> > Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
> > Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
> > Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when
> spelled out.
> >
> > Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your
> actual intent was to
> > bring happiness, not offend.
> >
> > -Don
> >
> ___
> Callers mailing list
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> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Lindsay Morris via Callers]

I don't think of it as a derogatory term.



Lindsay Morris
CEO, TSMworks
Tel. 1-859-539-9900
lind...@tsmworks.com

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Martha Wild via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I can see from this discussion that there is definitely merit in giving
> this move a different name, though I had never thought of it as a
> derogatory term before. I rather like the idea suggested in a previous post
> of "eddy" because it is short and to the point and sounds different from
> other calls. "Walk all around your neighbor/partner" is fine for a
> walkthrough and as a description, but not very good for a quick reminder
> when you'd rather be calling a lot less.
>
> Another move that one would have to rename is the "gypsy star". I have
> personally always called the move "gypsy star" as "star wrong" - mostly
> because if I say "gypsy star" there is always at least one couple in the
> crowd that starts to gypsy and swing (eddy and swing?) instead of doing the
> star. "Star wrong" is also short and to the point and emphasizes the oddity
> of the star - two people backing up and two going forward. It seems to get
> the job done.
>
> Martha
>
>
> On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:42 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:
>
> In square dance, the call "walk all around your left hand lady" is very
> close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left shoulder walk
> around.  A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw, but a Left
> Dosido.
> Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or
> partner, may be able to replace the gypsy without generating any new terms.
> Rich
> Stafford, CT
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
>> face, instead of back to back.
>>
>> As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
>> back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
>> Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
>> French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
>>  wrote:
>> > Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect
>> to be
>> > many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits
>> (particularly
>> > those reading the "digest" version).
>> >
>> 
>> > Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers
>> (and
>> > dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried
>> > rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
>> > existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
>> > heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
>> > being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
>> > renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might
>> offend
>> > but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since
>> > thought of other possible names and came up with these:
>> >
>> > Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
>> > Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
>> > Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
>> >
>> > Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent
>> was to
>> > bring happiness, not offend.
>> >
>> > -Don
>> >
>> ___
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>
> ___
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>
>
>
> ___
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> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Martha Wild via Callers]

I can see from this discussion that there is definitely merit in giving this 
move a different name, though I had never thought of it as a derogatory term 
before. I rather like the idea suggested in a previous post of "eddy" because 
it is short and to the point and sounds different from other calls. "Walk all 
around your neighbor/partner" is fine for a walkthrough and as a description, 
but not very good for a quick reminder when you'd rather be calling a lot less. 

Another move that one would have to rename is the "gypsy star". I have 
personally always called the move "gypsy star" as "star wrong" - mostly because 
if I say "gypsy star" there is always at least one couple in the crowd that 
starts to gypsy and swing (eddy and swing?) instead of doing the star. "Star 
wrong" is also short and to the point and emphasizes the oddity of the star - 
two people backing up and two going forward. It seems to get the job done.

Martha


On Oct 24, 2015, at 1:42 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:

> In square dance, the call "walk all around your left hand lady" is very close 
> to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left shoulder walk around.  A 
> left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw, but a Left Dosido.
> Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or 
> partner, may be able to replace the gypsy without generating any new terms.
> Rich
> Stafford, CT
> 
> 
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers 
>  wrote:
> I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
> face, instead of back to back.
> 
> As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
> back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
> Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
> French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
> 
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
>  wrote:
> > Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to be
> > many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly
> > those reading the "digest" version).
> >
> 
> > Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers (and
> > dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried
> > rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
> > existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
> > heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
> > being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
> > renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might offend
> > but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since
> > thought of other possible names and came up with these:
> >
> > Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
> > Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
> > Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
> >
> > Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent was to
> > bring happiness, not offend.
> >
> > -Don
> >
> ___
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> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
> 
> ___
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> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[P. Campbell via Callers]

Thank you for articulating these thought so clearly.

I wonder if Tony Barrand might have some idea about the origins from the Morris 
and longsword perspective.

Patricia 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 24, 2015, at 5:05 PM, Alan Winston via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think apologizing for unintentionally offending is good but I don't think 
> you have to take on all of what your correspondent is offended over.  
> 
> Your correspondent made up the idea that it's so named because of the idea 
> that Romani women are oversexualized.
> 
>  Here's my take on this:
> 
> - the use of the term "Gypsy" is inherently offensive to some of the people 
> to whom it refers in just the way the use of the term "Indian" is inherently 
> offensive to some Native Americans.  It's a name they don't accept (a) 
> because it incorrectly ascribes an incorrect geographical origin to them 
> (Egyptian for Gypsies, India (well, East Indies) for Indians) and (b) was 
> assigned to them by outsiders and became the terms used for them by people 
> who wanted to move them along / kill them.   (Although the term the Nazis 
> used, Zigeuner, derives from a Greek root meaning "untouchable" rather than 
> "Egyptian", according to the US Holocaust Museum website.)
> 
> - The term "Indian File" for walking in a line, one after another, doesn't 
> suggest anything particularly derogatory about Native Americans; I think it's 
> an observation or speculation that the way East Coast (forest-dwelling) 
> indigenous people walked through forests on minimal trails was in single 
> file.  We can point out that white society thinks there are many admirable 
> things about native peoples - the whole "Indian Guides" thing shows that - 
> and that the use of the world "Indian" in that isn't intended to be 
> offensive, etc, etc, and yet the obviously right thing to do was to start 
> saying "single file" instead, because the benefits of not pointlessly 
> offending people vastly outweighed the benefits of continuing to use a 
> non-descriptive term.  It's virtually never effective and rarely kind to tell 
> people they shouldn't be offended.
> 
> - By me, the same logic suggests that we should stop calling the figure 
> gypsy.  We can go at length into why it's not named after Gypsies, why 
> "Gypsy" is a superset name that includes Rom and other traveling people, some 
> of whom don't mind it, the use of gypsy to mean "traveler" (from which dance 
> gypsy, Gypsy moth, etc, derive), the admiring use of gypsy to mean free 
> spirit ("gypsy in my soul"), etc, but none of that actually matters in this 
> context.  What actual benefit do we derive from calling it "gypsy", other 
> than the sunk cost of having a community of people who know it by that name?  
> It's not descriptive.  (It is evocative and we have a bunch of dances with 
> "gypsy" in the name; not sure what to do about those.)
> 
> (I had been thinking that it would be very difficult to get a universal 
> change of name for the figure in the absence of a Callerlab for Contra, but 
> Yoyo's post (where he says he'll  just drop the name and prompt by which 
> shoulder you go around) opened my eyes to the possibility of effective 
> individual action by callers; you don't need universal agreement on a new 
> name.  That does open the door to a dancer on the floor saying "you mean 
> gypsy?" but I guess you can say "that name is offensive to some people".) 
>  I'm going to have to think more about this for my own practice as an English 
> and a contra caller.
> 
> - I'm personally interested in the history of things and how they got their 
> names, and I'm convinced that gypsy in contra was picked up from gypsy in 
> English which was picked up from "whole-gyp" and "half-gyp" in Morris and 
> that there's not necessarily any relationship of the name to any group of 
> people in origin, and I do not believe that in  naming the figure anybody was 
> saying anything about the stereotypical characteristics of any people.  I 
> really, with all the intellectual honesty I have available, don't believe 
> that.  (And I've heard different stereotypical characteristics assumed to be 
> the origin - sexuality, untrustworthiness, tendency to do non-touching 
> dances, so I think these are all just-so stories, ex post facto 
> rationalizations.)  I don't think this blameless origin is a reason to keep 
> the name, and I know it's absolutely ineffective to point out the blameless 
> origin to somebody who's offended.
> 
> That's the end of my argument, but I have more thoughts.
> 
> - This is different from people who are offended by callers who sexualize the 
> figure, which they could do whatever it's called.  I don't mind gypsy 
> meltdowns, but  I find "until you just can't stand it anymore" kinda tedious; 
> let's just walk around each other maintaining a comfortable level of eye 
> contact until the music tells us to swing, how about that?)  (And I think 
> 

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[James Saxe via Callers]

Jeff Kauffman referred us to:

> http://www.jefftk.com/p/history-of-the-term-gypsy

That page mentions Playford's 1651 description of the
dance "Cuckolds all a row," which includes the directions:

..., goe about the Co. We. not turning your faces.
..., goe about your owne not turning faces.

[I'm using spelling from

 http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/playford_1651/074small.html

Jeff's page seems to have facsimilie pages of a different
edition.]

Jeff writes that

> Sharp interpreted this section as a series of whole-gips,

where "whole-gip" is a figure from Morris dancing, and noted
that this leaves us with the question of how the Morris figure
got that name.

Let me point out that the 1651 edition of Playford also
includes a dance titled "The Spanish Jeepsie" (listed as
"Spanish Jepsies" in the contents).  This dance has a similar
figure to the one in "Cuckolds all a row":

... go all about your We. not turning your faces. ...

In fact the second and third parts of "The Spanish Jeepsie"
have

... go about your own as before ...

So the figure occurs more often in that dance than it does in
"Cuckolds all a row".

I don't know of (and haven't looked for) any specific evidence
linking "The Spanish Jeepsie" to the terms "half-gip" and
"whole-gip" in Morris dancing.  I also don't know of (and
haven't looked for) any evidence linking the choreography of
"The Spanish Jeepsie" to anything that occurs in traditional
Romani dancing (or it traditional Spanish dancing).

None of this historical stuff helps with the issue of the term
"gypsy" causing offence of with the task of picking a preferable
term.  One thing I think I can safely predict is that those who
are offended by the term "gypsy" would be even more offended by
"gip" (pronounced the same as "gyp", meaning to swindle).

--Jim

> On Oct 24, 2015, at 7:32 AM, Jeff Kaufman via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 5:17 AM, Chris Page via Callers
>  wrote:
>> "Gypsy" comes from Cecil Sharp, when he was trying to name a figure that
>> appeared in the literature of two dancers going around each other.
>> 
>> My hearsay understanding is that he named it after some Romani dances he
>> knew of where partners didn't touch each other.
>> 
> 
> Sharp called the figure "Whole-Gip" in The Country Dance Book Part II,
> and seems to have taken the name from Morris:
> 
>The figures which occur in the course of the dances described in
> "The Dancing Master" are very varied and very numerous. With the
> exception of the Set, the Side, and the Honour, and others of a like
> character, all of which are essentially Country dance figures, I have
> been able to connect nearly all of them with similar evolutions in the
> Morris or Sword dances. The Whole-Poussette and, of course, the Roll,
> are sword-dance figures, and I believe that all those Country Dance
> figures, in which an arch is made by the joining of hands,
> handkerchiefs, or ribbons, were originally derived from the same
> source. Other evolutions such as Whole-Gip, Back-to-Back, Cross-over,
> Foot-up, Corners, etc., are familiar Morris figures.
> 
> If anyone knows where to look for how Morris dancers got "gip" I'd be
> very curious.
> 
> http://www.jefftk.com/p/history-of-the-term-gypsy
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Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[via Callers]

Sent from my iPad
> On 24 Oct 2015, at 19:52, Richard Hart via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
> face, instead of back to back.

This might be problematic for ECD dancers as Fried de Metz Herman "invented" 
this figure. It is basically it is a reverse back to back ( dos-si-do), i.e. 
fall back past partner (neighbour) right shoulder, step right and walk forward 
to place.

As mentioned, in square dancing you have a walk around corner/partner. This is 
to all intents and purposes is a gypsy.

Graham

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Alan Winston via Callers]

On 10/24/15 12:12 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers wrote:

Hello All,

I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I 
received the email below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to 
convey that it is a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was 
obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to respond, except to 
apologize for offending.


I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no 
offense. I didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to 
make excuses. Does this move need a new name? How would you respond?



I think apologizing for unintentionally offending is good but I don't 
think you have to take on all of what your correspondent is offended over.


Your correspondent made up the idea that it's so named because of the 
idea that Romani women are oversexualized.


 Here's my take on this:

- the use of the term "Gypsy" is inherently offensive to some of the 
people to whom it refers in just the way the use of the term "Indian" is 
inherently offensive to some Native Americans.  It's a name they don't 
accept (a) because it incorrectly ascribes an incorrect geographical 
origin to them (Egyptian for Gypsies, India (well, East Indies) for 
Indians) and (b) was assigned to them by outsiders and became the terms 
used for them by people who wanted to move them along / kill them.   
(Although the term the Nazis used, Zigeuner, derives from a Greek root 
meaning "untouchable" rather than "Egyptian", according to the US 
Holocaust Museum website.)


- The term "Indian File" for walking in a line, one after another, 
doesn't suggest anything particularly derogatory about Native Americans; 
I think it's an observation or speculation that the way East Coast 
(forest-dwelling) indigenous people walked through forests on minimal 
trails was in single file.  We can point out that white society thinks 
there are many admirable things about native peoples - the whole "Indian 
Guides" thing shows that - and that the use of the world "Indian" in 
that isn't intended to be offensive, etc, etc, and yet the obviously 
right thing to do was to start saying "single file" instead, because the 
benefits of not pointlessly offending people vastly outweighed the 
benefits of continuing to use a non-descriptive term.  It's virtually 
never effective and rarely kind to tell people they shouldn't be offended.


- By me, the same logic suggests that we should stop calling the figure 
gypsy.  We can go at length into why it's not named after Gypsies, why 
"Gypsy" is a superset name that includes Rom and other traveling people, 
some of whom don't mind it, the use of gypsy to mean "traveler" (from 
which dance gypsy, Gypsy moth, etc, derive), the admiring use of gypsy 
to mean free spirit ("gypsy in my soul"), etc, but none of that actually 
matters in this context.  What actual benefit do we derive from calling 
it "gypsy", other than the sunk cost of having a community of people who 
know it by that name?  It's not descriptive.  (It is evocative and we 
have a bunch of dances with "gypsy" in the name; not sure what to do 
about those.)


(I had been thinking that it would be very difficult to get a universal 
change of name for the figure in the absence of a Callerlab for Contra, 
but Yoyo's post (where he says he'll  just drop the name and prompt by 
which shoulder you go around) opened my eyes to the possibility of 
effective individual action by callers; you don't need universal 
agreement on a new name.  That does open the door to a dancer on the 
floor saying "you mean gypsy?" but I guess you can say "that name is 
offensive to some people".)  I'm going to have to think more about this 
for my own practice as an English and a contra caller.


- I'm personally interested in the history of things and how they got 
their names, and I'm convinced that gypsy in contra was picked up from 
gypsy in English which was picked up from "whole-gyp" and "half-gyp" in 
Morris and that there's not necessarily any relationship of the name to 
any group of people in origin, and I do not believe that in  naming the 
figure anybody was saying anything about the stereotypical 
characteristics of any people.  I really, with all the intellectual 
honesty I have available, don't believe that.  (And I've heard different 
stereotypical characteristics assumed to be the origin - sexuality, 
untrustworthiness, tendency to do non-touching dances, so I think these 
are all just-so stories, ex post facto rationalizations.)  I don't think 
this blameless origin is a reason to keep the name, and I know it's 
absolutely ineffective to point out the blameless origin to somebody 
who's offended.


That's the end of my argument, but I have more thoughts.

- This is different from people who are offended by callers who 
sexualize the figure, which they could do whatever it's called.  I don't 
mind gypsy meltdowns, but  I find "until you just can't stand it 
anymore" kinda tedious; let's just walk 

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Rich Sbardella via Callers]

In square dance, the call "walk all around your left hand lady" is very
close to a right shoulder gypsy, and "See Saw is a left shoulder walk
around.  A left shoulder Dosido is no longer called a See Saw, but a Left
Dosido.
Walk all around your nieghbor or partner, and see saw your neighbor or
partner, may be able to replace the gypsy without generating any new terms.
Rich
Stafford, CT


On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Richard Hart via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
> face, instead of back to back.
>
> As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
> back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
> Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
> French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
>
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
>  wrote:
> > Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to
> be
> > many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly
> > those reading the "digest" version).
> >
> 
> > Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers
> (and
> > dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried
> > rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
> > existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
> > heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
> > being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
> > renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might
> offend
> > but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since
> > thought of other possible names and came up with these:
> >
> > Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
> > Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
> > Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
> >
> > Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent
> was to
> > bring happiness, not offend.
> >
> > -Don
> >
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

"Spiral".

That said, I've yet to hear a report of a Romani being offended. It's my
understanding that this may be a problem, say, in Europe, where the term
may be used as a slur. But here in America... we have plenty of racial
slurs, and I've yet to hear or hear of gypsy being used in a derogatory
manner.

But hey, prove me wrong. I'm just one person who hears things.

Should Brits stop calling cigarettes "fags" because we Americans have
hurtfully turned that into a slur?
On Oct 24, 2015 2:52 PM, "Richard Hart via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
> face, instead of back to back.
>
> As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
> back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
> Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
> French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.
>
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
>  wrote:
> > Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to
> be
> > many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly
> > those reading the "digest" version).
> >
> 
> > Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers
> (and
> > dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried
> > rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
> > existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
> > heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
> > being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
> > renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might
> offend
> > but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since
> > thought of other possible names and came up with these:
> >
> > Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
> > Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
> > Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
> >
> > Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent
> was to
> > bring happiness, not offend.
> >
> > -Don
> >
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Richard Hart via Callers]

I always describe a gypsy as being just like a dos à dos, but face to
face, instead of back to back.

As that is the case, why not use French again. As "dos à dos" means
back to back, why not use "face à face" which means face to face?
Pronunciation would probably be difficult for those who don't speak
French, so it would probably become "facey-face" for many.

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Don Veino via Callers
 wrote:
> Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to be
> many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly
> those reading the "digest" version).
>

> Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers (and
> dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried
> rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
> existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
> heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
> being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
> renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might offend
> but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd since
> thought of other possible names and came up with these:
>
> Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
> Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
> Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.
>
> Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent was to
> bring happiness, not offend.
>
> -Don
>

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Woody Lane via Callers]

Hi Amy,
I believe this topic has come up previously on other callers lists, and it is a 
bit of a conundrum.
There are other terms in the arts, like "buck dancing". American percussive 
dance dates back to the slave period. In some regions, what was an 
(unfortunate) common term for male slaves?
Something to ruminate on.
Woody

Sent from my iPad

 From: Amy Wimmer via Callers  To: 
call...@sharedweight.net Subject: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy" Date: 
10/24/15, 12:12 AM



Hello All,

I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I received the 
email below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a 
flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was obviously offended. I am at a 
loss for how to respond, except to apologize for offending.

I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no offense. 
I didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to make excuses. Does 
this move need a new name? How would you respond?

-Amy
Seattle


Begin forwarded message:


Subject: First time at your event







This evening, I came to one of your dances for the first time. I was impressed 
by the friendliness of the dancers, the quality of the musicians, and the 
overall fun of the dance.

And then we got to a dance in which we were told we would be learning a step 
named after an offensive term for Romani people. And I felt uncomfortable. And 
then when the step was taught, it became clear that the term was so named based 
on stereotypes of Romani women as being overly sexual. And I became more 
uncomfortable.

I assume that this was not done maliciously, but rather out of an unawareness 
of the ways that that term has been used to denigrate Romani people throughout 
history (much the same way that many other racial slurs have been used in the 
past by well-meaning people before they became aware that those terms were 
hurtful and harmful to those disadvantaged groups).

Nonetheless, it felt shockingly offensive to me, all the more so in the context 
of a community that appeared to be so welcoming and accepting.

Until that point, I had a very enjoyable time dancing at your event. I've been 
a dancer in a variety of communities for many years now, and aside from that 
issue, this was probably the best first experience I've had when meeting a new 
dance community. It was a shame that some presumably unintentional racial 
insensitivity had to ruin what was otherwise such a positive experience.

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Yoyo Zhou via Callers]

Since when I'm prompting, I sometimes just say "right shoulder" (or "left
shoulder" for a left shoulder gypsy), I'm going to try using that as the
name the next time I call. The teaching would look like:

"Point your right shoulder at your neighbor and look them in the eyes. Walk
around them. Swing."
or
"This neighbor allemande right once and a half. Go on to the next neighbor
with a left shoulder - point your left shoulder at them, look them in the
eyes, and walk around once, but come back to your first neighbor and swing."

(Of course, this means that see-saws are a little bit more confusing, since
in teaching them, one often uses the words "left shoulder". But those are
rare enough that I'm not overly concerned.)

Yoyo Zhou

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Jeff Kaufman via Callers]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 5:17 AM, Chris Page via Callers
 wrote:
> "Gypsy" comes from Cecil Sharp, when he was trying to name a figure that
> appeared in the literature of two dancers going around each other.
>
> My hearsay understanding is that he named it after some Romani dances he
> knew of where partners didn't touch each other.
>

Sharp called the figure "Whole-Gip" in The Country Dance Book Part II,
and seems to have taken the name from Morris:

The figures which occur in the course of the dances described in
"The Dancing Master" are very varied and very numerous. With the
exception of the Set, the Side, and the Honour, and others of a like
character, all of which are essentially Country dance figures, I have
been able to connect nearly all of them with similar evolutions in the
Morris or Sword dances. The Whole-Poussette and, of course, the Roll,
are sword-dance figures, and I believe that all those Country Dance
figures, in which an arch is made by the joining of hands,
handkerchiefs, or ribbons, were originally derived from the same
source. Other evolutions such as Whole-Gip, Back-to-Back, Cross-over,
Foot-up, Corners, etc., are familiar Morris figures.

If anyone knows where to look for how Morris dancers got "gip" I'd be
very curious.

http://www.jefftk.com/p/history-of-the-term-gypsy

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Brooks Hart via Callers]

Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in soundCyclone - too 
"violent", encouraging abandon?Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and 
short when spelled out.
How about "eddy"?
Brooks
List-Post: callers@lists.sharedweight.net
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2015 10:08:23 -0400
To: amywim...@gmail.com
CC: call...@sharedweight.net
Subject: Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"
From: callers@lists.sharedweight.net

Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to be 
many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly those 
reading the "digest" version).

I don't stress flirtation with this move - if so inclined, it appears to 
develop quite naturally on its own. What I typically say to a first time group 
of dancers is something along the lines of "lock [tractor beam] eyes with this 
person, slightly present your right [left] shoulder to them and walk around 
them [counter-]clockwise without touching - we call this a Gypsy".

In response to this person from your dance I would personally reply with 
something like:

"I'm sorry that you were offended and take your input seriously. The "gypsy" 
move in Contra dancing is shared from English Country Dance, and is a 
standardized term in this context. As a result of your input I've raised this 
issue with a group of dance leaders I participate in and there may be an 
opportunity to rename this move over time. Thanks for coming to our dance and I 
hope you'll join us again."
Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers (and 
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried 
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the existing 
usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani heritage and 
expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it being used for such 
a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be renamed. I don't mention 
this to make excuses for anything that might offend but rather to show that 
there are many possible perspectives. I'd since thought of other possible names 
and came up with these:
Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in soundCyclone - too 
"violent", encouraging abandon?Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and 
short when spelled out.Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your 
actual intent was to bring happiness, not offend.

-Don


On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers 
 wrote:
In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a flirty, eye contact sort of 
move. This person was obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to respond, 
except to apologize for offending. 

___
Callers mailing list
Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net 
  

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Don Veino via Callers]

Before I respond directly, I ask that all of us posting what I expect to be
many replies to trim post quotes to just the pertinent bits (particularly
those reading the "digest" version).

I don't stress flirtation with this move - if so inclined, it appears to
develop quite naturally on its own. What I typically say to a first time
group of dancers is something along the lines of "lock [tractor beam] eyes
with this person, slightly present your right [left] shoulder to them and
walk around them [counter-]clockwise without touching - we call this a
Gypsy".

In response to this person from your dance I would personally reply with
something like:

"I'm sorry that you were offended and take your input seriously. The
"gypsy" move in Contra dancing is shared from English Country Dance, and is
a standardized term in this context. As a result of your input I've raised
this issue with a group of dance leaders I participate in and there may be
an opportunity to rename this move over time. Thanks for coming to our
dance and I hope you'll join us again."

Curiously enough, I'd raised this naming issue with a group of callers (and
dancers glommed on) at a house party recently. An area caller had tried
rebranding the Gypsy as an Orbit, which this group rejected due to the
existing usage & meaning for that term. One participant was of Romani
heritage and expressed pride at the existing term and satisfaction at it
being used for such a nice dance move and would feel loss were it to be
renamed. I don't mention this to make excuses for anything that might
offend but rather to show that there are many possible perspectives. I'd
since thought of other possible names and came up with these:

   - Swirl - gentlest, unfortunately similar to "twirl" in sound
   - Cyclone - too "violent", encouraging abandon?
   - Vortex - distinct in sound, 2 syllables and short when spelled out.

Sorry you find yourself in this situation. We know your actual intent was
to bring happiness, not offend.

-Don

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 3:12 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a flirty, eye contact sort of
> move. This person was obviously offended. I am at a loss for how to
> respond, except to apologize for offending.
>

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Cynthia Phinney via Callers]

While I did already know that the Romani people have been severely 
discriminated against and oppressed, I did not know that the term gypsy was 
considered offensive. So I will think further about that.

 

I would not be inclined to describe the move as “flirty”, however, because that 
is the aspect of the move that I already know makes some people not like it 
since dancers inclined to insensitive flirting sometimes take license with it. 
I prefer to let people add flirtatiousness or not on their own without 
encouragement and to describe the move only by its basic physical attributes.

 

Always good to take a fresh look at things.

Thanks for raising the question here.

-cynthia

 

From: Callers [mailto:callers-boun...@lists.sharedweight.net] On Behalf Of Amy 
Wimmer via Callers
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 3:13 AM
To: call...@sharedweight.net
Subject: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

 

Hello All,

 

I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I received the 
email below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is a 
flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was obviously offended. I am at a 
loss for how to respond, except to apologize for offending. 

 

I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no offense. 
I didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to make excuses. Does 
this move need a new name? How would you respond?

 

-Amy

Seattle


Begin forwarded message:

Subject: First time at your event

This evening, I came to one of your dances for the first time. I was impressed 
by the friendliness of the dancers, the quality of the musicians, and the 
overall fun of the dance.

And then we got to a dance in which we were told we would be learning a step 
named after an offensive term for Romani people. And I felt uncomfortable. And 
then when the step was taught, it became clear that the term was so named based 
on stereotypes of Romani women as being overly sexual. And I became more 
uncomfortable. 

I assume that this was not done maliciously, but rather out of an unawareness 
of the ways that that term has been used to denigrate Romani people throughout 
history (much the same way that many other racial slurs have been used in the 
past by well-meaning people before they became aware that those terms were 
hurtful and harmful to those disadvantaged groups). 

Nonetheless, it felt shockingly offensive to me, all the more so in the context 
of a community that appeared to be so welcoming and accepting. 

Until that point, I had a very enjoyable time dancing at your event. I've been 
a dancer in a variety of communities for many years now, and aside from that 
issue, this was probably the best first experience I've had when meeting a new 
dance community. It was a shame that some presumably unintentional racial 
insensitivity had to ruin what was otherwise such a positive experience.

Re: [Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Chris Page via Callers]

"Gypsy" comes from Cecil Sharp, when he was trying to name a figure that
appeared in the literature of two dancers going around each other.

My hearsay understanding is that he named it after some Romani dances he
knew of where partners didn't touch each other.

-Chris Page
San Diego, CA

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 12:12 AM, Amy Wimmer via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I received
> the email below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to convey that
> it is a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was obviously
> offended. I am at a loss for how to respond, except to apologize for
> offending.
>
> I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no
> offense. I didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to make
> excuses. Does this move need a new name? How would you respond?
>
> -Amy
> Seattle
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *Subject:* *First time at your event*
>
> This evening, I came to one of your dances for the first time. I was
> impressed by the friendliness of the dancers, the quality of the musicians,
> and the overall fun of the dance.
>
> And then we got to a dance in which we were told we would be learning a
> step named after an offensive term for Romani people. And I felt
> uncomfortable. And then when the step was taught, it became clear that the
> term was so named based on stereotypes of Romani women as being overly
> sexual. And I became more uncomfortable.
>
> I assume that this was not done maliciously, but rather out of an
> unawareness of the ways that that term has been used to denigrate Romani
> people throughout history (much the same way that many other racial slurs
> have been used in the past by well-meaning people before they became aware
> that those terms were hurtful and harmful to those disadvantaged groups).
>
> Nonetheless, it felt shockingly offensive to me, all the more so in the
> context of a community that appeared to be so welcoming and accepting.
>
> Until that point, I had a very enjoyable time dancing at your event. I've
> been a dancer in a variety of communities for many years now, and aside
> from that issue, this was probably the best first experience I've had when
> meeting a new dance community. It was a shame that some presumably
> unintentional racial insensitivity had to ruin what was otherwise such a
> positive experience.
>
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>

[Callers] Advice about "gypsy"

[Amy Wimmer via Callers]

Hello All,

I taught a dance this evening that included a ladies' gypsy. I received the
email below a few minutes ago. In teaching it I wanted to convey that it is
a flirty, eye contact sort of move. This person was obviously offended. I
am at a loss for how to respond, except to apologize for offending.

I'm pretty sure I described the move accurately. I meant absolutely no
offense. I didn't make up the name for the move, but don't want to make
excuses. Does this move need a new name? How would you respond?

-Amy
Seattle


Begin forwarded message:

*Subject:* *First time at your event*

This evening, I came to one of your dances for the first time. I was
impressed by the friendliness of the dancers, the quality of the musicians,
and the overall fun of the dance.

And then we got to a dance in which we were told we would be learning a
step named after an offensive term for Romani people. And I felt
uncomfortable. And then when the step was taught, it became clear that the
term was so named based on stereotypes of Romani women as being overly
sexual. And I became more uncomfortable.

I assume that this was not done maliciously, but rather out of an
unawareness of the ways that that term has been used to denigrate Romani
people throughout history (much the same way that many other racial slurs
have been used in the past by well-meaning people before they became aware
that those terms were hurtful and harmful to those disadvantaged groups).

Nonetheless, it felt shockingly offensive to me, all the more so in the
context of a community that appeared to be so welcoming and accepting.

Until that point, I had a very enjoyable time dancing at your event. I've
been a dancer in a variety of communities for many years now, and aside
from that issue, this was probably the best first experience I've had when
meeting a new dance community. It was a shame that some presumably
unintentional racial insensitivity had to ruin what was otherwise such a
positive experience.