> -Original Message-
> From: Tomas Doran [mailto:bobtf...@bobtfish.net]
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:08 AM
> To: The elegant MVC web framework
> Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: The paradox of choice in web development
>
>
> On 19 Feb 2009, at
On 19 Feb 2009, at 20:07, Matt Pitts wrote:
-Original Message-
From: Dave Rolsky [mailto:auta...@urth.org]
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:21 PM
To: The elegant MVC web framework
Subject: RE: [Catalyst] RFC: The paradox of choice in web development
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009, Matt Pitts
On 19 Feb 2009, at 18:27, Matt Pitts wrote:
All this talk about Perl/Catalyst/CPAN pains, has got me thinking...
Anybody like the idea of having a local::lib "bootstrap" option to
CatalystX::Starter and possible integration of a script that would
launch a CPAN shell for installing into the loc
On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Dan Dascalescu
wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Matt Pitts wrote:
>> Anyway, this is a long story, I'll stop ranting. My point was just that
>> there is no easy way to "just run" the Cat app in Windows.
>
> I understand the idea of developing a Catalyst
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Matt Pitts wrote:
> Anyway, this is a long story, I'll stop ranting. My point was just that
> there is no easy way to "just run" the Cat app in Windows.
I understand the idea of developing a Catalyst app on Windows and
running it on a *nix web server. This is wha
On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Kieren Diment wrote:
>
> On 20/02/2009, at 1:51 AM, Jonathan Rockway wrote:
>
> * On Wed, Feb 18 2009, Dermot wrote:
>>
>>> Yes there is, at first glance, a lot of choice but is there. I would
>>> say TT and Mason are the only realistic choices (for HTML).
>>>
>>
On 20/02/2009, at 1:51 AM, Jonathan Rockway wrote:
* On Wed, Feb 18 2009, Dermot wrote:
Yes there is, at first glance, a lot of choice but is there. I would
say TT and Mason are the only realistic choices (for HTML).
If by "realistic" you mean "unmaintainable for both designers and
developer
A feeling of deja vu has grown. I used to be a Lisp developer, and
remember a conference presentation by Richard Gabriel about the
difference between languages emphasizing internal correctness and
consistency, compared to those emphasizing something that works and
integrates well. Since then,
Maybe perl6 will provide that "common denominator" without sacrificing
the low-level goodies.
I've followed the perl6 development some, and the approach is a little
different.
Unlike now, there's not going to be a 'blessed' set of source code
that is a particular perl version.
Instead,
> -Original Message-
> From: Dave Rolsky [mailto:auta...@urth.org]
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 2:21 PM
> To: The elegant MVC web framework
> Subject: RE: [Catalyst] RFC: The paradox of choice in web development
>
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009, Matt Pitts wrot
> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew Rodland [mailto:arodl...@comcast.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 1:12 PM
> To: The elegant MVC web framework
> Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: The paradox of choice in web development
>
> On Thursday 19 February 2009 09:12:3
On Thu, 19 Feb 2009, Matt Pitts wrote:
I myself am currently trying to support multiple developers (content &
perl) working on a Catalyst app from Windows desktops and it's been a
bit of a process. Cygwin seems to be providing the best solution right
now, but Cgywin Perl fork()ing breaks frequen
All this talk about Perl/Catalyst/CPAN pains, has got me thinking...
Anybody like the idea of having a local::lib "bootstrap" option to
CatalystX::Starter and possible integration of a script that would
launch a CPAN shell for installing into the local::lib folder?
Or, maybe a separate module Cat
On Thursday 19 February 2009 09:12:36 am Matt Pitts wrote:
> In today's world of software that is cross-platform and OS agnostic at
> its core, Perl 5 is showing its age. Still love it though.
>
This isn't as much a Perl problem as it seems to be -- it's the rule all
around that writing code that
From: Stuart Watt
> On Windows, for the most part, Perl is the easy bit. Getting it to talk to
some parts of Windows is a bit harder. Getting it to run to a
> production standard with Microsoft technology is almost unbelievably
complex. It would probably be much easier with Cygwin, Apache,
Cosimo Streppone wrote:
It's _not_ that hard.
Perl has been good in the Windows world for long.
Strawberry has improved this a great deal.
Actually, our experience has been pretty horrendous. The problem for us
has not been Perl but deploying Catalyst apps under Windows. We've used
IIS and Fast
> -Original Message-
> From: Cosimo Streppone [mailto:cos...@streppone.it]
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 10:30 AM
> To: The elegant MVC web framework
> Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: The paradox of choice in web development
>
> In data 19 februar 2009 alle ore
From: "Matt Pitts"
-Original Message-
From: Octavian Rasnita [mailto:orasn...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:56 AM
To: The elegant MVC web framework
Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: The paradox of choice in web development
From: "Ali M."
> When C
In data 19 februar 2009 alle ore 16:12:36, Matt Pitts ha
scritto:
I think that the success of other languages, especially Python is also
due to the fact that they support better Windows than Perl.
[...]
Sad to say, but I completely agree with this. It's quite ironic how the
drive of open so
> -Original Message-
> From: Octavian Rasnita [mailto:orasn...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:56 AM
> To: The elegant MVC web framework
> Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: The paradox of choice in web development
>
> From: "Ali M."
> > Whe
2009/2/19 Jonathan Rockway :
> * On Wed, Feb 18 2009, Dermot wrote:
>> Yes there is, at first glance, a lot of choice but is there. I would
>> say TT and Mason are the only realistic choices (for HTML).
>
> LOL. Just so you know, O'Reilly recently fired pretty much everyone
> Perl-related. Perl.c
* On Wed, Feb 18 2009, Dermot wrote:
> Yes there is, at first glance, a lot of choice but is there. I would
> say TT and Mason are the only realistic choices (for HTML).
If by "realistic" you mean "unmaintainable for both designers and
developers", then yes, you've described Mason and TT.
The onl
A discussion on slashdot called "Twitter Leads Social Networks In
Downtime" made me post a link to an interview with Twitter developer
Alex Payne, in which he describes the problems he encountered with
Rails:
http://www.radicalbehavior.com/5-question-interview-with-twitter-developer-alex-payne/
On
2009/2/19
* Template::Toolkit
* Text::Template
* Text::FastTemplate
* Text::Templar
* HTML::Template
* HTML::KTemplate
* HTML::Mason
* HTML::Seamstress
* dTemplate
* Jemplate
Yes there is, at first glance, a lot of choice but is there. I would
say TT and Ma
--- On Wed, 2/18/09, Kieren Diment wrote:
> From: Kieren Diment
> Subject: Re: [Catalyst] RFC: The paradox of choice in web development
> To: "The elegant MVC web framework"
> Date: Wednesday, February 18, 2009, 7:41 AM
> On 18/02/2009, at 5:55 PM, Dave Rolsky w
I've actually done the reverse switch. Although I was a Perl developer
for a good while, I previously used Apache::ASP and real ASP on Windows,
with raw DBI and a hand-crafted search engine for most of this time. I
then had to pick up Java and Spring with Hibernate for a while, for a
second pro
On 18/02/2009, at 5:55 PM, Dave Rolsky wrote:
On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, bill hauck wrote:
I'm trying to put together a project to rewrite a job tracking
database currently running in FileMaker. The functionality and
scope of the job tracking system has changed so instead of throwing
more mon
On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, bill hauck wrote:
I'm trying to put together a project to rewrite a job tracking database
currently running in FileMaker. The functionality and scope of the job
tracking system has changed so instead of throwing more money in a
proprietary, closed system that requires a c
My experience ...
I'm trying to put together a project to rewrite a job tracking database
currently running in FileMaker. The functionality and scope of the job
tracking system has changed so instead of throwing more money in a proprietary,
closed system that requires a costly application on e
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 2:25 AM, Dan Dascalescu
wrote:
> I have no idea who's behind AppliedStacks
Update: it's Daniel Cer - http://dmcer.net.
> I contacted their support e-mail with a bunch of bugs but no reply so
> far (it's been 4 days).
Update: Daniel responded to all my e-mails and promptl
Dan Dascalescu wrote:
>
>> I never heard of this site before, but since it's mentioned
>> here I assume it's somewhat "trusted".
>
> I have no idea who's behind AppliedStacks - I discovered it
> accidentally while doing the research for the Paradox of choice essay.
> I contacted their support e
>> Actually, the community will probably benefit most from writing code.
>> Talking about talking about something doesn't actually buy you much.
>> New modules that make programming easier are definitely more appealing
>> all around.
>>
> Well, yes and no. Not everyone has the same skillset. Some
On Feb 17, 2009, at 11:21 AM, Jonathan Rockway wrote:
The community will benefit from more bloggers and success
stories
Actually, the community will probably benefit most from writing code.
Talking about talking about something doesn't actually buy you much.
New modules that make program
> The community will benefit from more bloggers and success stories
Actually, the community will probably benefit most from writing code.
Talking about talking about something doesn't actually buy you much.
New modules that make programming easier are definitely more appealing
all around.
It
From: "Ali M."
> When Catalyst is not chosen I personally believe it the combination of
> two things
> 1. Perl is no longer perceived as an easy language, or language that
> make development easier.
More exactly,, Perl is considered a language hard to learn, that creates a code
hard to maintain,
Kieren Diment you really seem like such a nice, tolerant and decent person.
I could buy the book "God willing" only to make you happy, seriously.
I personally think that 30$ for a nice book, it worthwhile.
Of course if you feel like buying 20 books, 20 * 30 = 600$ , well not
so nice then.
But as
On 17/02/2009, at 9:48 PM, Dan Dascalescu wrote:
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Kieren Diment
wrote:
So the goal of the book we're writing at the moment isn't a walk-
through
tutorial, but a set of materials designed to get you from raw
beginner
through the entire catalyst learning curve
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Kieren Diment wrote:
> So the goal of the book we're writing at the moment isn't a walk-through
> tutorial, but a set of materials designed to get you from raw beginner
> through the entire catalyst learning curve as quickly as possible - i.e.
> minimising the co
I thought you refer to youporn.com ;-)
- Alex
Am Sonntag, den 15.02.2009, 13:39 +0100 schrieb Dan Dascalescu:
> > Aye, that it is:
> >
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/12/iplayer_day_performance_tricks.html
>
> Thanks for the link. I added it as a support URL to
> http://www.applie
Hey all,
Cosimo: Cool.
I wanted to add that Denny de la Haye has put up perlisalive.com. He
is looking for some success stories to cover. It'd be great if
anyone who has some success stories / perl liveliness to share could
submit them there.
Jay
On Feb 16, 2009, at 2:32 AM, Cosimo
On Sun, 15 Feb 2009, Kieren Diment wrote:
and there you go, a pdf of all 363 pages of the catalyst docs.
Well, that's a start. I think it would need some polishing to compete
with the available Django docs. For easier comparison I've tossed a copy
of the Django pdf manual up on my site:
> We're not BBC of course, but I took some time
> to add the My Opera community site (developed by our team
> in Opera Software) to appliedstacks.com.
Nice, thank you.
> I never heard of this site before, but since it's mentioned
> here I assume it's somewhat "trusted".
I have no idea who's behi
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:04 AM, Dan Dascalescu
wrote:
>
> I think I can agree with that. What I'm saying is that there's simply
> too much useless choice. Random example:
>
> Data::Dumper
> vs.
> Data::Dump.
>
> I've just discovered Data::Dump but it appears to beat the crap out of
> Data::Dumpe
In data 15 februar 2009 alle ore 15:05:33, Octavian Râsnita
ha scritto:
From: "David Wright"
I can't say much because of confidentiality, but from the Catalyst
survey late last year, I can say that there are some pretty high
profile places using Catalyst around about. It's public knowledg
From: "Ashley"
> I know what you're saying and it's not without marketing merit but I
> argue it's only a good example for bad managers. A manager at a mid-
> sized or small company knows he/she cannot waste 10s of millions of
> dollars without tanking the company. Big companies can make huge
From: "Kieren Diment"
> I've written two single-user run-the-dev-server-to-get-the-front-end
> apps with Catalyst in the last 4 months or so (using Catalyst rather
> than a gui toolkit
I have also written *only* 1-person projects in Catalyst, because I don't know
any Perl developer in my a
> I've once tried to start a discussion at PerlMonks about that:
> http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=515728
Nice but old and too centralized. I suggest adding a "Modules to
avoid" section on each page at the wiki page below:
>> http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?recommended_cpan_modules
A
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Ashley wrote:
> On Feb 15, 2009, at 12:31 PM, Octavian Râsnita wrote:
>>
>> "The list of CPAN modules you shouldn't use because they are not good:"
I've once tried to start a discussion at PerlMonks about that:
http://perlmonks.org/?node_id=515728
>
> Everyone s
On Feb 15, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Octavian Râsnita wrote:
It might not be a good example for developers, but it surely is a
good example for the managers.
All the managers want to use the same tools used by the important
companies, because they can trust the big companies much more than
the sma
On 16/02/2009, at 7:31 AM, Octavian Râsnita wrote:
From: "Jay Kuri"
I think it's a mistake to try to compete with Rails for the newbie.
Some large percentage of newbies will never do anything more than
occasional tinkering if they stick with web development at all. We
have limited resources
From: "Ashley"
And while others have made good points there were many that
weren't so hot. Using a big company as an example of a place
that picks the best is ridiculous; their size and bureaucracy
often mean they can't. When I was at Amazon I watched
them burn millions of dollars on dead end pr
On Feb 15, 2009, at 12:31 PM, Octavian Râsnita wrote:
"The list of CPAN modules you shouldn't use because they are not
good:"
Everyone should consider writing more reviews on the CPAN reviews
site too.
It's directly connected with them. It wouldn't carry the same sort of
"authority" as a fo
From: "Jay Kuri"
I think it's a mistake to try to compete with Rails for the newbie.
Some large percentage of newbies will never do anything more than
occasional tinkering if they stick with web development at all. We
have limited resources and we don't want to waste our time there. To
make Ca
On Feb 15, 2009, at 1:04 AM, Dan Dascalescu wrote:
First: Perl jobs are not decreasing. While there is not a ton of
'Buzz'
around perl anymore... If you look at actual jobs stats:
http://tiny.cc/kkcCM
Perl is above all the others by some margin.
Short version: that graph is misleading. C
From: "Robert L Cochran"
In my company, the selection of programming languages is determined by
what is specified in our Enterprise Architecture. That specification
does not include perl or perl-ish frameworks. It does include .NET and
Sun Java. For frameworks at Tier B, we use Rational Applicat
I think a lot of folks make good points.
I am not arguing that we do not promote things. I am arguing that
A) it's not as bad as it first seems.
-- and --
B) before we can promote Catalyst / Perl, we have to know where we
want to position ourselves.
I think it's a mistake to try to compete
>> The fact is that Oracle does not try to compete for the low end of
>> the market with MySQL. They don't want it. They never did. Why do we?
>
> The comparison is good, but not very exact. I know companies which
> don't use PostgreSQL but Oracle, because Oracle is better known
> (because it o
From: "David Wright"
I can't say much because of confidentiality, but from the Catalyst survey
late last year, I can say that there are some pretty high profile places
using Catalyst around about. It's public knowledge that two of the
biggest streaming media websites in the world use Catalyst.
On 15.02.2009, at 13:39, Dan Dascalescu wrote:
Aye, that it is:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/12/iplayer_day_performance_tricks.html
Thanks for the link. I added it as a support URL to
http://www.appliedstacks.com/website/Bbc_Iplayer
Cool, I've updated the "Sites using Catalyst
2009/2/15 Dan Dascalescu :
>
> I think I can agree with that. What I'm saying is that there's simply
> too much useless choice. Random example:
>
> Data::Dumper
> vs.
> Data::Dump.
>
I imagine there is some kudos in getting a module on CPAN hence there
is a lot of overlap. Rather that developers
On 15.02.2009, at 09:40, Octavian Râsnita wrote:
In my country there are no jobs for perl developers. There are jobs
for Java, C#, C++ and PHp developers.
The knowledge of perl is considered as an advantage in very few job
announcements, but it is wanted mostly for administrative tasks, not
> Aye, that it is:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/12/iplayer_day_performance_tricks.html
Thanks for the link. I added it as a support URL to
http://www.appliedstacks.com/website/Bbc_Iplayer
___
List: Catalyst@lists.scsys.co.uk
Listinfo: h
On 15.02.2009, at 09:58, Kieren Diment wrote:
On 15/02/2009, at 7:50 PM, Russell Jurney wrote:
Yahoo has posted some Catalyst specific job listings, so presumably
they use Catalyst for something.
I can't say much because of confidentiality, but from the Catalyst
survey late last year, I can s
I can't say much because of confidentiality, but from the Catalyst
survey late last year, I can say that there are some pretty high
profile places using Catalyst around about. It's public knowledge that
two of the biggest streaming media websites in the world use Catalyst.
Aye, that it is:
From: "Dan Dascalescu"
I've just discovered Data::Dump but it appears to beat the crap out of
Data::Dumper. Yet does it say anywhere "Hey, if you're getting started
with Perl and need to dump variables, use Data::Dump, and don't waste
your time investigating other modules"? If I were the author
On Sunday 15 February 2009 03:04:04 am Dan Dascalescu wrote:
> > First: Perl jobs are not decreasing. While there is not a ton of 'Buzz'
> > around perl anymore... If you look at actual jobs stats:
> >
> > http://tiny.cc/kkcCM
> >
> > Perl is above all the others by some margin.
>
> Short version
> First: Perl jobs are not decreasing. While there is not a ton of 'Buzz'
> around perl anymore... If you look at actual jobs stats:
>
> http://tiny.cc/kkcCM
>
> Perl is above all the others by some margin.
Short version: that graph is misleading. Click the "Relative" link.
Longer version: Yes,
On 15/02/2009, at 7:50 PM, Russell Jurney wrote:
Yahoo has posted some Catalyst specific job listings, so presumably
they use Catalyst for something.
I can't say much because of confidentiality, but from the Catalyst
survey late last year, I can say that there are some pretty high
prof
Yahoo has posted some Catalyst specific job listings, so presumably
they use Catalyst for something.
Russell Jurney
rjur...@lucision.com
On Feb 15, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Octavian Râsnita wrote:
If we want to compete for the niche of big sites, we should see why
Google, Yahoo, Amazon, Ebay an
From: "Jay Kuri"
I've been watching this discussion and I have ranted my less than
constructive ravings in #catalyst.
My more constructive ravings are below...
First: Perl jobs are not decreasing. While there is not a ton of 'Buzz'
around perl anymore... If you look at actual jobs stats:
h
I've been watching this discussion and I have ranted my less than
constructive ravings in #catalyst.
My more constructive ravings are below...
First: Perl jobs are not decreasing. While there is not a ton of
'Buzz' around perl anymore... If you look at actual jobs stats:
http://tiny.cc/k
On 15/02/2009, at 1:57 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote:
Catalyst Fans,
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009, David Steiner wrote:
i added my comments to the article, suggesting that we step up on the
documentation and marketing! we need to give the layperson a easier
ride in
starting out with catalyst. and that r
Catalyst Fans,
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009, David Steiner wrote:
i added my comments to the article, suggesting that we step up on the
documentation and marketing! we need to give the layperson a easier ride in
starting out with catalyst. and that requires more tutorials/screencasts,
better official do
I also agree with Dan.
Catalyst tries to solve that problem in the RoR way - it offers a default
ORM, a default template in its manual, but there are much more other perl
tools which are not defined as the recommended ones.
For example, HTML::FormFu is a very good form manager, but it doesn't
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