RE: PATA hard disks, anyone?

I'll take them all please. Let me know the cost of shipping. Thanks. Kip -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy N. via cctalk Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 10:33 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: PATA hard disks, anyone? The new

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/29/2018 03:48 PM, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > Also, AFS is built around volumes (think "virtual disks") and you have > the concept of a r/w volume with (potentially) a pile of r/o volumes > snapshotted from it. So one thing I did was that every (r/w) volume > had a directory

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 01:17:08PM -0400, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > > I know of no RAID setup that can save me >from stupid. > > I use rsync. I manually rsync the working disks to the backup disks every > week or two. Working disks have the shares to other hosts. If something > happens to that

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

1 PM (GMT-08:00) > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > <cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > Subject: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone? > > > > How many drives would you need, to be able to set up a RAID, or hot > &

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 05:40:29PM -0700, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > I have been kind of following this thread. I have a question about MTBF. I > have four HGST UltraStar Enterprise 2TB drives setup in a Hardware RAID 10 > configuration. If the the MTBF is 100,000 Hrs for each drive does

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

It's not quite that bad. The answer is that the MTBF of four drives is probably not simply the MTBF of one drive divided by four. If you have a good description of the probability of failure as a function of drive age (i.e., a picture of its particular "bathtub curve") you can then work out

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Fred, I appreciate the explanation. So with out a 1,000, 10,000, or even 100,000 drives there is no way to know how long my drives in the RAID will last. All I know for sure is that I can lose anyone drive and the RAID can be rebuilt. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/28/2018 4:43 PM,

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: I have been kind of following this thread. I have a question about MTBF. I have four HGST UltraStar Enterprise 2TB drives setup in a Hardware RAID 10 configuration. If the the MTBF is 100,000 Hrs for each drive does this mean that the

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Bill, I have a 30 year old IBM SCSI drive that still works great. Yes, every company has had good drives and bad drives. I have had Quantum drives that have lasted for decades and I have had ones that died in a year. :) GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/28/2018 5:03 AM, Bill Gunshannon via

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Hello all, I have been kind of following this thread. I have a question about MTBF. I have four HGST UltraStar Enterprise 2TB drives setup in a Hardware RAID 10 configuration. If the the MTBF is 100,000 Hrs for each drive does this mean that the total MTBF is 25,000 Hrs? GOD Bless and

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/28/2018 12:32 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: With very unreliable drives, that isn't acceptable. If each "drive" within the RAID were itself a RAID, . . . Getting to be a complicated controller, or cascading controllers, . . . Many of the SCSI / SAS RAID controllers that I've worked

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 09:33:38AM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: [...] > The basic assumption is that failures are "fail stop", i.e., a drive refuses > to deliver data. (In particular, it doesn't lie -- deliver wrong data. You > can build systems that deal with lying drives but RAID is not

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >>> How many drives would you need, to be able to set up a RAID, or hot >>> swappable RAUD (Redundant Array of Unreliable Drives), that could give >>> decent reliability with such drives? >>> How many to

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

How many drives would you need, to be able to set up a RAID, or hot swappable RAUD (Redundant Array of Unreliable Drives), that could give decent reliability with such drives? How many to be able to not have data loss if a second one dies before the first casualty is replaced? How many to be

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/28/2018 10:17 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: >> I know of no RAID setup that can save me >from stupid. > > I use rsync. I manually rsync the working disks to the backup disks > every week or two. Working disks have the shares to other hosts. If > something happens to that data, deleted by

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 2018-03-28 1:17 PM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: >> I know of no RAID setup that can save me >from stupid. > > I use rsync. I manually rsync the working disks to the backup disks > every week or two. Working disks have the shares to other hosts. If > something happens to that data, deleted by

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/28/2018 11:51 AM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: A step up from rsync can be dirvish - it uses rsync, but before each backup it creates a hardlink tree of the previous backup, then rsyncs over it. The net effect is you only pay the block cost of one copy of unchanged files, plus an

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/28/2018 11:17 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: You mean something like someone who writes a script that does blind cd to the directory and then proceeds to delete the contents? This is one of the primary reasons that I prefer to see the full path specified on the rm command. --

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 28 March 2018 at 18:17, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > I know of no RAID setup that can save me >from stupid. >> > > I use rsync. I manually rsync the working disks to the backup disks every > week or two. Working disks have the shares to other hosts. If something > happens

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 2018-03-28 2:09 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: Original message From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 3/28/18 10:02 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyo

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

I know of no RAID setup that can save me >from stupid. I use rsync. I manually rsync the working disks to the backup disks every week or two. Working disks have the shares to other hosts. If something happens to that data, deleted by accident or encrypted by malware. Meh. Hardware like

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Original message From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 3/28/18 10:02 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone? >I know of no RAID setup that can save

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/28/2018 06:33 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > These are straightforward questions of probability math, but it takes > some time to get the details right. For one thing, you need > believable numbers for the underlying error probabilities. And you > have to analyze the cases carefully.

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/28/2018 05:03 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > I have ancient Micropolis and Miniscribe disks here that still > work great.  Seems every company went thru at least one > model that was trash.  The worst from my experience were > IBM disks made in Thailand. Were there ever any *good*

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

> On Mar 27, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > Well outside my realm of expertise (as if I had a realm!), . . . > > How many drives would you need, to be able to set up a RAID, or hot swappable > RAUD (Redundant Array of Unreliable Drives), that

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/28/2018 01:04 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/27/2018 08:27 PM, dwight wrote: >> I recall at one company we used Micropolous ( SP? ) drives. We had >> almost 100% failure in less than 6 months. It did our company a lot of >> damage. > A lot of outfits (e.g. Sun, HP) used

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 28 March 2018 at 01:43, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Digging around on the pointer from Al to backblaze, I found this, which, > to me is far more meaningful in terms of presentation of data: > >

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 28 March 2018 at 02:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Well outside my realm of expertise (as if I had a realm!), . . . > > How many drives would you need, to be able to set up a RAID, or hot > swappable RAUD (Redundant Array of Unreliable Drives), that could give >

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

I have a couple of applications where I want the largest THIN 2.5" SATA drive. Currently, that is the 2TB Seagate/Samsung. 2TB and up SSDs will be here. Eventually. Comparing "internal"/"external" prices, it seems to cost about $30 to have the external USB3 case removed and discarded. I

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 06:04 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 03/27/2018 08:27 PM, dwight wrote: > > I recall at one company we used Micropolous ( SP? ) drives. We had > > almost 100% failure in less than 6 months. It did our company a lot of > > damage. > > A lot of

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/27/2018 08:27 PM, dwight wrote: > I recall at one company we used Micropolous ( SP? ) drives. We had > almost 100% failure in less than 6 months. It did our company a lot of > damage. A lot of outfits (e.g. Sun, HP) used Micropolis drives. Generally, they were good, but expensive. Maybe

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

iccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 5:27:32 PM To: Ali via cctalk Subject: Re: PATA hard disks, anyone? > Interesting but consistent with my informal observations. My Hitachi > enterprise class 4gb hdd are still going strong after multiple power > outages and almost 5 years of

Re: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 2018-03-27 10:05 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: Original message From: Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 3/27/18 5:51 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Subject: RAID

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Hitachi 3 and 4tb are VERY good, as are the equivalent Toshiba from when WD divested themselves of the Hitachi hi-end line. Been runnning 4 HGST 4TB for a long while now at home and have been really happy. My best disks. 1tb was the switchover point to vertical recording, so those (and esp

RE: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Original message From: Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 3/27/18 5:51 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Subject: RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone? How many

RAID? Was: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Well outside my realm of expertise (as if I had a realm!), . . . How many drives would you need, to be able to set up a RAID, or hot swappable RAUD (Redundant Array of Unreliable Drives), that could give decent reliability with such drives? How many to be able to not have data loss if a

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

> Interesting but consistent with my informal observations. My Hitachi > enterprise class 4gb hdd are still going strong after multiple power > outages and almost 5 years of 24x7 on time. Granted not much reading > and writing occurs but the fact that they are spinning is probably > the biggest

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Original message From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: 3/27/18 4:43 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "Tapley, Mark via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: PATA hard disks, anyone? Digging around on the pointer from Al

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Digging around on the pointer from Al to backblaze, I found this, which, to me is far more meaningful in terms of presentation of data: https://hackernoon.com/applying-medical-statistics-to-the-backblaze-hard-drive-stats-36227cfd5372 --Chuck

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/27/2018 04:04 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Hitachi 3 and 4tb are VERY good, as are the equivalent Toshiba from when WD > divested themselves > of the Hitachi hi-end line. Hmmm, I haven't actually installed a 1TB drive in any mission-critical equipment yet--still sitting in

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 3/27/18 12:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Am I being silly? Hitachi 3 and 4tb are VERY good, as are the equivalent Toshiba from when WD divested themselves of the Hitachi hi-end line. 1tb was the switchover point to vertical recording, so those (and esp seagate 1.5tb) are

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Are they functional or decorative? 3TB Seagate They will likely fail. Defective model. Know someone that doesn't even RMA them, straight to trash. Replaces them with WD. (Note that all Seagate models have the issue, just something wrong with a 3TB model.) - Ethan

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Eric, my 17 yo son is building up a gaming computer out of a Mac Pro. If you are serious about getting rid of these, I might encourage him to set up a Raid 5 with 3 of them and 1 or 2 spares. I would think it would read and write pretty fast until it broke, and then he could transition

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On Tue, 27 Mar 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: It's probably foolish and irrational, but I somehow just don't trust the bargain-basement 4TB drives to perform long-term. Am I being silly? Not really. Have you looked at the drive statistics published by Backblaze? Here's a report for

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/27/2018 09:19 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > I have a hook-up to get some older drives from another company (1.5TB, > etc) and well... let's just say that "newer" used disks with 4 years on > them aren't very reliable. I'd imaigne the older ones hold up much > better since they were more

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

From: "cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> To: et...@757.org, "cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 11:48:22 AM Subject: Re: PATA hard disks, anyone? On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Ethan via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Are they functional or decorative? From: "cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> To: et...@757.org, "cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 11:48:22 AM Subject: Re: PATA hard disks, anyone? On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Ethan via cctal

R: PATA hard disks, anyone?

"that" bad ? :S . -Messaggio originale- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Eric Smith via cctalk Inviato: martedì 27 marzo 2018 20:48 A: et...@757.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: PATA hard disks, anyone? On T

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > and well... let's just say that "newer" used disks with 4 years on them > aren't very reliable. > If anyone wants some Seagate ST3000DM001 drives (3TB SATA), I've got extras! :-(

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/27/2018 09:19 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > Yep! I've watched thousand(s) of pounds of working hard drives get > shredded. This is nothing new. In the 1970s, the official CDC diktat was to reduce any surplused equipment to scrap. That included taking a sledgehammer to disk drives and

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

The advantages of working for a small company... the sysadmin is a long-time employee who's just moved into that role, he and I are good buddies. And there's not anything worth $$$ data recovery on them anyway. I hate seeing perfectly good working equipment reduced to low-value scrap, so I'm

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On Mon, 2018-03-26 at 11:18 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'm surprised that your sysadmin is allowing this to happen. Many large > outfits have a policy of sending any hard disk, regardless of content to > the industrial shredders. The advantages of working for a small company... the

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 07:44:58PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 26 March 2018 at 19:34, Tomasz Rola via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I have heard good things of MHDD diagnostic/repair program in the > > context of low level format and generally checking health of

Re: R: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/26/2018 05:58 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> NSA has been successful enough that the concept "DOD Wipe" as was found >> in programs like Gformat from Ghost no longer exists. > Bill, > > Are you saying that the NSA can recover data from a HDD that has been erased > and been written over

RE: R: PATA hard disks, anyone?

> NSA has been successful enough that the concept "DOD Wipe" as was found > in programs like Gformat from Ghost no longer exists. Bill, Are you saying that the NSA can recover data from a HDD that has been erased and been written over multiple times? -Ali

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Subject: Re: R: PATA hard disks, anyone? Certainly, but it's fruitless to use logic in cases such as these. Chances are that someone once read the paper from the 1990s that said it was possible to recover overwritten data from a drive using, IIRC, an STM--at a rate of what was it? 1 kbit per hour

Re: R: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/26/2018 04:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Certainly, but it's fruitless to use logic in cases such as these. >>> Chances are that someone once read the paper from the 1990s that >>> said it >>> was possible to recover overwritten data from a drive using, IIRC, an >>> STM--at a

Re: R: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Certainly, but it's fruitless to use logic in cases such as these. Chances are that someone once read the paper from the 1990s that said it was possible to recover overwritten data from a drive using, IIRC, an STM--at a rate of what was it? 1 kbit per hour? On Mon, 26 Mar 2018, Ethan via cctalk

Re: R: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/26/2018 12:26 PM, et...@757.org wrote: > AFAIK there has been a bounty out to recover data with a single wipe > that hasn't been collected. I thought it was all theory and never done > in practice? Here's the Gutmann paper that many people cite:

Re: R: PATA hard disks, anyone?

Certainly, but it's fruitless to use logic in cases such as these. Chances are that someone once read the paper from the 1990s that said it was possible to recover overwritten data from a drive using, IIRC, an STM--at a rate of what was it? 1 kbit per hour? AFAIK there has been a bounty out to

Re: R: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/26/2018 11:23 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > Well, but with dban and/or other certified software the drives are as well as > new. The only issue would be the time/cost to sanitize them in house. Certainly, but it's fruitless to use logic in cases such as these. Chances are that someone

R: PATA hard disks, anyone?

20:18 A: Guy N. via cctalk Oggetto: Re: PATA hard disks, anyone? On 03/25/2018 07:32 PM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > The new sysadmin at work is clearing out closets full of junk^H^H^H^H > cool old stuff accumulated by the previous sysadmin. There's a big > carton full of PATA hard dis

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 03/25/2018 07:32 PM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > The new sysadmin at work is clearing out closets full of junk^H^H^H^H > cool old stuff accumulated by the previous sysadmin. There's a big > carton full of PATA hard disks. Most of them are in the 4.3 GB - 20 GB > range, a few larger, a few

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On 26 March 2018 at 19:34, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > I have heard good things of MHDD diagnostic/repair program in the > context of low level format and generally checking health of spinning > disks. That's a new one on me. I have occasionally used, and often

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 06:22:04AM -0700, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: [...] > I have to wipe the drives before I ship them -- my word of honor to the > sysadmin. I have probably a couple dozen done now that I can ship right > away. The rest will trickle out a little bit slower after that. > > When

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

I've had more replies to this offer than I expected! I'll make a general reply here, and contact everyone who responded off-list. I think the simplest and most cost-effective way to ship these is a USPS Priority Mail flat rate box. I have to wipe the drives before I ship them -- my word of

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

>> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 9:32 PM, Guy N. via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> The new sysadmin at work is clearing out closets full of junk^H^H^H^H >> cool old stuff accumulated by the previous sysadmin. There's a big >> carton full of PATA hard disks. Most of them are in the 4.3

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

those are the ibm server ones right? On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 9:32 PM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > The new sysadmin at work is clearing out closets full of junk^H^H^H^H > cool old stuff accumulated by the previous sysadmin. There's a big > carton full of PATA hard disks.

PATA hard disks, anyone?

The new sysadmin at work is clearing out closets full of junk^H^H^H^H cool old stuff accumulated by the previous sysadmin. There's a big carton full of PATA hard disks. Most of them are in the 4.3 GB - 20 GB range, a few larger, a few smaller. Anyone have any use for these? You can have them