Re: I hate the new mail system

[drlegendre . via cctalk]

I was wondering why 99% of my cctalk shows up as "read mail".. =/

What a PITA, I can't tell what I have read from what I have not read - is
this part of the 'new' system?

On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 2:46 PM, ben via cctalk 
wrote:

> What did you do? 99% of all my cctalk is now in my spam filter.
>
>

Re: Univac I memory tank

[dwight via cctalk]

I can't imagine why it needed to be reworked. That is only what I was told. I 
always thought it was kind of funny.

The Olivetti used a piece of wire for the delay line. I forget what the Dielh 
Combitron used but I know it used a two delay lines. One was for registers and 
the other was for lookup tables that loaded at turn on time from a metal tape ( 
as I recall ).

Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Pontus Pihlgren via 
cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 1:11:10 AM
To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Univac I memory tank

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 05:41:57PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> > From: Dwight Kelvey
>
> > I need on of those.
>
> I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of
> course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in
> the world?

CHM has one: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X976.89

It used to be on display, perhaps it still is.

/P

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Zane Healy wrote:


I’m reminded of the current, and ludicrous, Mac Pro. :-(


I wish the reply-to pointed at cctalk@classiccmp.org! 

I just took a peek at the Mac Pro.  People actually buy that thing?  I 
just got a Dell Dimension 7910 workstation at work.  It cost around $3200 
and came with a 10 core, hyperthreaded Xeon CPU (with an open socket for a 
2nd), 32GB of RAM (can take 512GB), and something like 6TB of drive space.


Apple must seriously depend on people not knowing what the hell they're 
buying.


g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Ardent Titan

[Randy Dawson via cctalk]

Hi Camiel,


First let me say you are one lucky guy.


I had one of these in my office for a few months, after their demo in Houston 
we were in constant contact to promote and sell them.

Ardent, later Stardent supplied the hardware and we ported an application to 
show at the Offshore Technology Conference, in our booth.

Great guys, and it got a lot of interest - it was a 3D model of downhole pipe 
exhibiting corrosion, 100K rendered polygons and you could swing it around in 
realtime, very impressive hardware for the 80's.


I have maintained my interest, they dissolved in spite of a very impressive 
machine.  The visualization pipeline was spun off as a separate company, AVS.


Kubota (who purchased Stardent) put the rendering software, Dore' in the public 
domain.  I have built it here under FreeBSD on a PC; it was in the ports system 
for a while, and without to much messing with, I got the demos running (FLAG, a 
flag blowing in the wind, with controls for wind speed and direction, 
controlled by the knob box) are still impressive.


Let me know how you come along, I really want to see you bring this up.  I can 
certainly copy Dore' over to you.


Another great resource, is the story of the machine itself.  It was a 
promotional book given to prospective clients, but a very detailed and well 
written book:


The Architecture of Supercomputers, Titan a Case Study

Daniel P. Siewiorek, Philip John Koopman, Jr.

ISBN 0-12-6430-60-8


I see its on Amazon:


https://www.amazon.com/Architecture-Supercomputers-Titan-Case-Study/dp/1483246590



Good luck, and keep in touch on how this is coming.


Regards,


Randy Dawson

The Architecture of Supercomputers: Titan, a Case Study 
...
www.amazon.com
The Architecture of Supercomputers: Titan, A Case Study describes the 
architecture of the first member of an entirely new computing class, the 
graphic supercomputing ...










From: cctech  on behalf of Camiel Vanderhoeven 
via cctech 
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 8:24 AM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org
Subject: Ardent Titan

Last Friday, I finally received a shipment of 1980's minisupercomputers
from the US that I've been working on since September. One of the systems
is an Ardent Titan, which to my knowledge was the first (mini-)
supercomputer to come with an integrated high-end graphics subsystem
(1280x1024@60Hz, hardware spheres, antialiasing, and cast shadows).

After careful checking, I powered it on yesterday, and got as far as
trying to boot it; unfortunately, the harddisk does not contain the OS,
but I'm trying to get access to an installation tape. There's a full
writeup about my efforts this weekend on my website:
http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/42-repair/576-ardent-titan-power-on
[http://www.vaxbarn.com/images/ardent/titan/a_02.jpg]

Ardent Titan 
power-on
www.vaxbarn.com
VAXBARN: Camiel Vanderhoeven's computer collection


A description with some pictures of the Ardent can be found here:
http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/other-bits/565-ardent-titan
Ardent Titan - 
VAXBARN
www.vaxbarn.com
This Ardent Titan is one of the systems donated by a Stanford University 
professor. They are currently being shipped to me, so I have not been able to 
inspect these ...


Uncrating pictures are here:
http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/41-acquisitions/575-supercomputers-have-ar
[http://www.vaxbarn.com/images/acq/convex4/20170310_140351.jpg]

Supercomputers have 
arrived
www.vaxbarn.com
VAXBARN: Camiel Vanderhoeven's computer collection


rived

Anyone who knows anything about these machines, please contact me! Also,
if you have access to installation tapes, manuals, brochures, anything
related to these systems, please let me know.

Kind regards,
Camiel Vanderhoeven

Re: Oki 3305 disk drives

[Wouter de Waal via cctalk]

Hi all

OK, following up on my own post here.


I have a couple of Oki 3305BU 1/3 height 5 1/4" drives.

On startup the motor spins and the heads load, but the heads don't
move. Also, my BIOS tells me I have a drive failure.

On taking them apart for a bit of a lube I noticed they have EPROM
8748s inside. Could this be the problem, EPROMs lost data? This would
be a first for me, I have EPROMs from the seventies which are still fine.


I caused (I have people working for me who are really good at this) 
the 8748 to be removed from the one PCB. Reading it in my Expro gives 
me sort-of random results. Looks like some bits are high, some are 
low, and some float all over the place. No two reads return the same 
data, but some bytes are constant over two or three reads and other 
bytes are constant over two or three other reads.


Is this the way an EPROM would fail? Seems reasonable to me.

Anyway, I guess I'm SOL unless I can find a working drive. As far as 
I can tell these were used in the Heath / Zenith 170/170 luggables, 
also in the Morrow Pivot maybe.


Tony would probably just rewrite the firmware. It's only 1024 bytes, 
how hard can it be? :-) Seriously, I am thinking of reading each byte 
say 100 times, averaging that, and then sticking the whole thing 
through a disassembler. But it seems a bit of a mammoth task.


W

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Chris Hanson wrote:


On Mar 14, 2017, at 1:46 PM, geneb via cctalk  wrote:



Although I suppose you might have been talking about the software. I mean,
without that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from Xerox, to 
allow ordinary people to use a computer, where would we be?


Fixed that for ya. :)


Two problems with this repetition of a bogus meme:

1. Xerox got pre-IPO Apple stock in exchange for the PARC visits and the 
chance to use and build on what they saw.


2. What the Apple folks saw and what was implemented for Lisa and then 
Macintosh were vastly different.


Well hooray for Xerox.  Apple still obtained the concepts from Xerox, 
regardless of the mechanism.



- The one-button mouse.

Yeah, god forbid you confuse the poor user with more than one button.

interfaces. They weren’t just “copied from Xerox.” If you sit someone 
who knows how to use a Mac in front of a circa-1979 Xerox Alto, they’ll 
be pretty mystified.


That's providing you can find one that won't panic and find a safe space 
after being exposed to a multi-button mouse. :)


g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god?

Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started...



an unreliable source, who was working in Apple at the time, said that it was 
being touted "for the unwashed masses, or at least ignorant rich folk".
Somebody was smart enough to latch onto that and change it from third person 
to first person plural.

Using computer phobia to market computers was a smart move.


...and we've been paying for it ever since. :(

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[geneb via cctalk]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Raymond Wiker wrote:


On 14 Mar 2017, at 23:49 , TeoZ via cctalk  wrote:

Jobs had to get fired for Apple to recall the expansion capabilities of the 
Apple II days and start making the Mac II series.


Jobs left Apple in 1985 and returned in 1997. The Macintosh II was 
introduced in 1987; two years after Jobs left and 10 years before he 
returned.


It took the engineers 2 years to recover from the electroshock treatments 
and start designing expansion busses again. :)


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Mar 15, 2017 3:28 PM, "Fred Cisin via cctalk" 
wrote:
> I was surprised that Jobs didn't make the Lisa floppy 5.0 or 5.5 inches,

I assume that Apple wanted to get at least a small benefit of economy of
scale from media manufacturers not having to retool for a different size,
even though they had to use a higher coercivity coating and a different
punch for the jacket.

> and used a relatively standard drive for the Mac.

The Mac used a Twiggy drive (AKA FileWare, AKA Apple 871 drive) until very
late in development. Twiggy drives were intended for use on the Apple II
and III as well, though they didn't go into production. The decision to use
Sony 3.5" drives was a response to the huge problems Apple had with the
Twiggy.

>  I would have thought that he would want people to buy even their media
from Apple.

Other vendors sold Twiggy media under the FileWare trademark, presumably
under license. I have no idea whether a per-disk royalty was involved. I
have unopened boxes of Verbatim FileWare diskettes.

Re: I hate the new mail system

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

I don't hate it, but it sure is inconvenient:

Looks like I get messages with three different "TO" addresses:

cctalk@classiccmp.org 

and

General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; 

No problem with those two; easy to pick out cctalk messages.

But 

;General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

is a PITA since of course it sorts etc. by the Sender instead of a CCTALK ID.

Why the difference?

m

Re: DEC frontpanel switch replica!

[Rod Smallwood via cctalk]

Hi

They look pretty good to me.  How's it done. The originals were 
injection molded  and  of course needed a  mold.


I'll be at the Munich VCF at the end of April.


Rod Smallwood



On 16/03/2017 00:30, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:

Hi folks,

this might be quite interesting for the folks that miss front panel 
switch handles!


As some of you might know I'm currently working (a bit) on a new batch 
of Omnibus USB boards. And I have announced that there will be a kind 
of handle for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and 
showed him some bits and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for 
concrete artwork (https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of 
time into perfecting his moulding skills.
I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual 
problem) to try what can be done.
Today I came home and he gave me the piece saying that he was unable 
to replicate it. I took it (a bit frustrated) and stated that he has 
somehow ruined the surface... Haha! It was the replica!
He told me that this was a first "fast" shot including a "rough" 
approximation of the colour.


I was stunned!

Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been 
replicated.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0

He told me that it was a bit difficult to get the holes at the side 
right. I think that it would be no problem if they'd be more shallow 
or even gone.


* His material is less translucent than the original. Won't probably 
change. So a perfectionist could spot the difference.


* He states that he can hit colors even better! (Think of the special 
colors!!!)


* The axle stubs would be omitted and made of steel (something I 
already plan for repair of that weakest point)


* He is able to produce flawless finish (remember: it's a raw prototype!)

This is not my business. I told him that I'd ask around if there would 
be serious interest. He is not in vintage computing and does not work 
for free. So one piece would probably cost around 5-15 EUR each, 
depending on demand, color etc.



Please give some feedback!


Philipp :-)


--
There is no wrong or right
Nor black and white.
Just darknessand light

Re: DEC frontpanel switch replica!

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2017-03-15 8:30 PM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:

Hi folks,

this might be quite interesting for the folks that miss front panel
switch handles!

As some of you might know I'm currently working (a bit) on a new batch
of Omnibus USB boards. And I have announced that there will be a kind of
handle for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and showed him
some bits and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for concrete artwork
(https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of time into perfecting
his moulding skills.
I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual
problem) to try what can be done.
Today I came home and he gave me the piece saying that he was unable to
replicate it. I took it (a bit frustrated) and stated that he has
somehow ruined the surface... Haha! It was the replica!
He told me that this was a first "fast" shot including a "rough"
approximation of the colour.

I was stunned!

Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been
replicated.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0
...

Please give some feedback!


Alright, I will!

While obviously a first cut, this is amazing, you and your neighbour 
should be complimented. This kind of creativity and hard work really 
helps retrocomputing restorers. Kudos to you both.


--Toby





Philipp :-)

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Raymond Wiker

> Steve Jobs ... was also a stickler for perfection and largely unwilling
> to make compromises.

Absolutely; and that's a large part of the reason for the success of Apple.
His products were just really well done.

It's also, I think, a big part of the causality for another Apple
characteristic: their push for closed systems. The thing is that Steve wanted
to make the user experience as good as possible (another hallmark of Apple
stuff) - and when the 'system' includes pieces being independently sourced
from multiple entities, it's hard to make that happen - there will be
glitches, etc. So that's why he usually wanted to bring the entire thing
inside the Apple envelope.

> So, Steve Jobs ... should get some of the credit for the fact that
> we're not all running Windows on variations of crappy PC hardware.

I think that's not accurate; Linux may not have a large user base among
non-technical people in the laptop area, but it does show that there are other
alternatives. And when it gets to smart-phones, of course, things which are
neither Apple nor uSloth are the majority there, no?


> From: Chris Hanson

> What the Apple folks saw and what was implemented for Lisa and then
> Macintosh were vastly different.

I don't agree with the "vastly". (Having said that, I salute the Lisa/Mac
people for doing a very good job of producing a excellent user interface.)

The changes in the interface (menu bar, etc) are not that large; they are
mostly minor refinements to the basic image/pointing-based interface
pioneered by Xerox.

The biggest improvement, IMO, was not in the details of the window system, but
that everything used a common user interface - and the lack of that on the
Alto was not planned, but more a result of the fact that the Alto was so far
into new territory, and not done as an integrated system, but as a platform
for research.

> - The one-button mouse.

Err, some of us don't see that as an 'improvement'... :-)

> If you sit someone who knows how to use a Mac in front of a circa-1979
> Xerox Alto, they'll be pretty mystified.

Yeah, but that's in good part because the Alto user interface is such a dog's
breakfast - Draw is nothing like Bravo is nothing like etc, etc. But, like I
said, that was inevitable, given the process that produced the Alto.

Noel

Delay Lines (Was: Univac I memory tank)

[Rick Bensene via cctalk]

Dwight wrote:

> The Olivetti used a piece of wire for the delay line. 

The Programma 101  indeed used a delay line.  Such delay lines use
magnetostrictive means to push a torque pulse into one end of the wire,
as well as detect a torque twist at the other end of the wire.
Magnetostrictive materials are typically a metal alloy that lengthens or
shortens depending on the polarity of an external magnetic field, and
will also generate a small magnetic field if stretched or compressed.

In a magnetostrictive delay line thin strips of magnetostrictive metal
are attached to opposite points tangential to the circumference of the
end of a nickel-alloy(typically) wire.  These strips, for whatever
reason, are typically called "tapes".

Each tape has a small coil of magnet wire surrounding it, wound
oppositely around each tape, such that when a short current pulse is
sent into the coils, one tape momentarily lengthens, and the other tape
contracts, causing a slight but sharp twisting torque to be applied to
the wire. This acts to transmit a pulse of energy into the wire.  The
torque twist mechanically travels through the wire to the other end,
where it causes one tape to lengthen slightly, and the other to compress
slightly, which induces a small current pulse into the coils around the
tapes, which can be amplified to match the electrical characteristics of
the original pulse. Sending a current pulse through the coils in one
direction causes the twist to occur clockwise, and the pulse going the
other direction induces a counter-clockwise twist, allowing ones and
zeros to be pushed into the wire as clockwise or counter-clockwise
torque twists.

The amount of time that elapses (delay)  from the pulse being injected
to being received at the other end of the wire is based on the
metallurgy of the wire, and its length.   The wire is capable of
remembering some number of torque twists  as bits, with a clockwise
torque, for example, representing a one, and a counter-clockwise twist
representing a zero.   

The wire was typically arranged in a spiral inside a metal housing.
Silicone or rubber supports supported the wire without attenuating the
torque pulses in the wire.In some cases, there were "taps" along the
length of the wire that used the same transducer method to pick off bits
at different delay periods. 

The use of such delay line technology in calculators arose  out of the
need to store a moderate number of bits to represent the working
registers of the calculator.  At the time, magnetic core memory was
still quite expensive, integrated circuit technology was in its infancy
and too expensive to use for mass storage in a calculator, and it was
generally cost and size prohibitive to store the bits required in
discrete transistor flip flop storage registers (though a few very early
electronic calculators did use this method).  

Given that delay line technology had been used with success on computers
(though the Univac I delay lines were very different than
magnetostrictive delay lines), they were a low cost, relatively simple
way to provide the small amount of storage required for an electronic
calculator.   A prime example of the use of magnetostrictive delay lines
in a computer was the Packard Bell 250, a low-cost "personal" computer
introduced in the early 1960's.

The bit-serial nature of the delay line was ideal for a calculator,
since a bit serial architecture is coincident with the most efficient
way to make an electronic calculator, where raw speed is not a
requirement, and minimizing the component count saves money.  The serial
nature of the delay line means that if a specific bit is needed, the
logic must wait around for the bit to arrive at the end of the delay
line.   This slows down the operation of the device, but in the case of
a calculator, where results are subject to human perception, 10s to
100's of milliseconds is well within the acceptable time for a
calculation to occur.

> I forget what the Dielh Combitron used but I know it used a two delay
lines. One was for registers and the other was for lookup tables that
loaded at turn on time from a metal tape ( as I recall ).

The Diehl Combitron did use two separate delay lines, one for the
registers(as well as learn-mode program storage) as mentioned, but the
other one wasn't really for lookup tables, but instead stored the
operating microcode that made the machine run.   The microcode was
indeed loaded from a punched metal tape at power-on time.   The
ingenious design of the Combitron was done by Dr. Stanley Frankel, a
nuclear physicist who was deeply involved in the mathematical modeling
that made the atom and hydrogen bombs possible.  After the Manhattan
project ended, he was involved in the design of quite a few computers
and calculators.  Notable computers that he designed were the
Librascope-General Precision LGP-30, the aforementioned Packard Bell
250, and some design work on early General Electric computers.   He also
designed the 

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2017-03-15 7:02 PM, Warner Losh wrote:

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk
 wrote:

On 2017-03-15 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:



The whole idea of an "operating system"  seems to have morphed into the
notion of a user interface.

To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user
interface build on a single operating system.



Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have
morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"?



1983. All the world's a VAX.


Running BSD


1993. No sorry, all the world's a SPARC.


Running Solaris


Yeah, or SunOS 4 was the reference platform for a while.




2013. Oops, no, all the world's an x86.


Running Linux


Yep.

--T



I'm waiting for the rise of cell phones to make it

202x All the world's an ARM running Android

Warner


--T






One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of
definitions.



Agreed.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan

Re: DEC frontpanel switch replica!

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:27 PM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 16.03.2017 03:19, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> For a prototype that looks very nice indeed!

They do indeed.

>> Same for the side holes just using the depression as the centre
>> point.
>
> Side holes? What for? We'll make them without side holes I think. They have
> no function and are nearly invisible.

They aren't structurally functional and they aren't visible, *but*
they have a purpose... when making a large object, the side holes
ensure that the deepest point of the object is shallower than if the
hole weren't there.  This accomplishes two things - the center of the
part cools and hardens faster, plus there's less overall plastic so
the shrinkage factor as it cools is less likely to put a
depression/flaw where it might be visible.

Negative space still has a function.

It's a common thing with injection-molded plastics to consider wall
thickness and body thickness.  It's not about "saving a few cents in
plastic", but it is about less effort to get faithful parts.

> If there's enough demand, I'll probably manage the
> distribution/shipping/ordering.

Cool.  I don't know if folks would want to get 20-30 toggles at 15
Eur, but closer to 5 Eur is in striking range

What is the material, BTW?

> I think that he can make everything glossy. For matte finish, we'd need a
> perfect original or see if we can somehow prepare the mould.

My memory of all the toggles I've handled (no pun intended) is that
they have a glossy finish, not a matte finish.

-ethan

Re: DEC frontpanel switch replica!

[ben via cctalk]

On 3/15/2017 8:50 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:




I think that he can make everything glossy. For matte finish, we'd need a
perfect original or see if we can somehow prepare the mould.


My memory of all the toggles I've handled (no pun intended) is that
they have a glossy finish, not a matte finish.


Nice and shinny from all that toggling?


-ethan


I was just thinking. Can one get new switches too?
Some swiches might be a little worn, and need to be
replaced.
Ben.

Re: DEC frontpanel switch replica!

[Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk]

On 16.03.2017 03:19, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:

For a prototype that looks very nice indeed!

Yess :-)


I agree that for this level of molding precision the pivot axle would be better
if done as a separate piece and press fitted.
Yes. Even if it is moulded perfectly - the axle will still be THE point 
of failure. So the replica will be better than the original. BTW I did 
not manage to break the replica...



Steel would be fine, brass rod would
also be ok and softer to machine.

We'll see.


A small jig could be made to cross-drill the
hole accurately.

I already planned that as a repair measure.


Same for the side holes just using the depression as the centre
point.
Side holes? What for? We'll make them without side holes I think. They 
have no function and are nearly invisible.



Your neighbour has done an excellent job there, well done. He ought to run off 
a few
different DEC paddle switch designs and flog them on eBay :)

Still have to get him interested enough :-)
If there's enough demand, I'll probably manage the 
distribution/shipping/ordering.


I think that he can make everything glossy. For matte finish, we'd need 
a perfect original or see if we can somehow prepare the mould.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[TeoZ via cctalk]

Superdrives (floppy drives) are starting to be a problem on 68k Mac systems 
because they fail (motors die, heads get ripped off, etc).  The later ones 
with the black flap (cost reduced) found on PPC systems seem to last. Same 
problems with the IBM PS/2 floppy drives.


Twiggy drives seemed to be junk even new, which is why they changed the 
model to use the Sony 3.5" drives.


-Original Message- 
From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk

Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 4:40 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Pair of Twiggys


I always wondered about the wisdom of single-sourcing storage devices
such as the Next optical drive, the Twiggy or the SuperDrive of the
early Macs.

--Chuck 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: I hate the new mail system

[drlegendre . via cctalk]

I didn't make any intentional changes to my filters (do I even have any?)
so I can't say that's the cause. But about 75% of my cctalk mails now show
up as "read".. and it's super-annoying. Anyone know how to correct it?

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 11:07 AM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:44 AM, drlegendre . via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > I was wondering why 99% of my cctalk shows up as "read mail".. =/
> >
> > What a PITA, I can't tell what I have read from what I have not read - is
> > this part of the 'new' system?
> >
>
> You mean in Gmail? I don't have that problem with mine. Do you perhaps have
> a filter that automatically marks them read, which wasn't being run before?
>
> --
> Eric Christopherson
>

DEC frontpanel switch replica!

[Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk]

Hi folks,

this might be quite interesting for the folks that miss front panel 
switch handles!


As some of you might know I'm currently working (a bit) on a new batch 
of Omnibus USB boards. And I have announced that there will be a kind of 
handle for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and showed him 
some bits and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for concrete artwork 
(https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of time into perfecting 
his moulding skills.
I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual 
problem) to try what can be done.
Today I came home and he gave me the piece saying that he was unable to 
replicate it. I took it (a bit frustrated) and stated that he has 
somehow ruined the surface... Haha! It was the replica!
He told me that this was a first "fast" shot including a "rough" 
approximation of the colour.


I was stunned!

Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been 
replicated.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0

He told me that it was a bit difficult to get the holes at the side 
right. I think that it would be no problem if they'd be more shallow or 
even gone.


* His material is less translucent than the original. Won't probably 
change. So a perfectionist could spot the difference.


* He states that he can hit colors even better! (Think of the special 
colors!!!)


* The axle stubs would be omitted and made of steel (something I already 
plan for repair of that weakest point)


* He is able to produce flawless finish (remember: it's a raw prototype!)

This is not my business. I told him that I'd ask around if there would 
be serious interest. He is not in vintage computing and does not work 
for free. So one piece would probably cost around 5-15 EUR each, 
depending on demand, color etc.



Please give some feedback!


Philipp :-)

Re: DEC frontpanel switch replica!

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

> Hi folks,
>
> this might be quite interesting for the folks that miss front panel
> switch handles!
>
> As some of you might know I'm currently working (a bit) on a new batch
> of Omnibus USB boards. And I have announced that there will be a kind of
> handle for the boards this time... I went to my neighbour and showed him
> some bits and pieces. He has a nice little workshop for concrete artwork
> (https://www.fritzundfranz.com/) and spent a lot of time into perfecting
> his moulding skills.
> I gave him a pdp8/e yellow switch handle with broken axle (usual
> problem) to try what can be done.
> Today I came home and he gave me the piece saying that he was unable to
> replicate it. I took it (a bit frustrated) and stated that he has
> somehow ruined the surface... Haha! It was the replica!
> He told me that this was a first "fast" shot including a "rough"
> approximation of the colour.
>
> I was stunned!
>
> Here you can see pictures. Even the defects of the original have been
> replicated.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sih4qrrw4o3zgbh/AACf7kY7MbGDLt5FYJgfI4kDa?dl=0
>
> He told me that it was a bit difficult to get the holes at the side
> right. I think that it would be no problem if they'd be more shallow or
> even gone.
>
> * His material is less translucent than the original. Won't probably
> change. So a perfectionist could spot the difference.
>
> * He states that he can hit colors even better! (Think of the special
> colors!!!)
>
> * The axle stubs would be omitted and made of steel (something I already
> plan for repair of that weakest point)
>
> * He is able to produce flawless finish (remember: it's a raw prototype!)
>
> This is not my business. I told him that I'd ask around if there would
> be serious interest. He is not in vintage computing and does not work
> for free. So one piece would probably cost around 5-15 EUR each,
> depending on demand, color etc.
>
>
> Please give some feedback!
>
>
> Philipp :-)
>

For a prototype that looks very nice indeed!
I agree that for this level of molding precision the pivot axle would be better
if done as a separate piece and press fitted. Steel would be fine, brass rod 
would
also be ok and softer to machine. A small jig could be made to cross-drill the
hole accurately. Same for the side holes just using the depression as the centre
point.
Your neighbour has done an excellent job there, well done. He ought to run off 
a few
different DEC paddle switch designs and flog them on eBay :)

Steve.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 15 March 2017 at 14:17, geneb via cctalk  wrote:
> Well hooray for Xerox.  Apple still obtained the concepts from Xerox,
> regardless of the mechanism.

Only some and only very basic ones.

Icons for files, the "OK" and "Cancel" buttons, scroll bars, all kinds
of utterly basic stuff were invented at Apple.

> Yeah, god forbid you confuse the poor user with more than one button.

Jeez, Gene, can't you find some _new_ nonsense?

This one is quantifiable and measurable. More buttons means more
cognitive delay. For years and decades. It has been _proved_ slower.
Yes we're all used to it now, but you just have not read the HCI
research if you are still reciting this tired stale old B S.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

AC magnetic field strengths

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

I bought an AlphaLabs GM-2 Gaussmeter for another project, and measured the AC 
magnetic
field strength touching these devices yesterday, since I really didn't have any 
idea beyond
order of magnitude what they might be

Handheld tape head demagnetizer: 40 Gauss
GC Elec 9317 CRT degausing coil: 70 Gauss
Audiolab TD-3 desktop bulk eraser: 1000 Gauss
Inmac 7180 or
RS 44-233A handheld bulk tape erasers: 2000 Gauss



also the DC field of a 1/4" button super magnet like on the
backs of clip on badges is about 3000 Gauss

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[js--- via cctalk]

On 3/15/2017 11:35 AM, Liam Proven via 
cctalk wrote:

On 15 March 2017 at 14:17, geneb via cctalk  wrote:

Well hooray for Xerox.  Apple still obtained the concepts from Xerox,
regardless of the mechanism.

Only some and only very basic ones.

Icons for files, the "OK" and "Cancel" buttons, scroll bars, all kinds
of utterly basic stuff were invented at Apple.


Yeah, god forbid you confuse the poor user with more than one button.

Jeez, Gene, can't you find some _new_ nonsense?

This one is quantifiable and measurable. More buttons means more
cognitive delay.


Maybe cognitive delay is a good thing.   
Separates the wheat from the chaff.


Eg. "God forbid" there be automobiles 
with only one button (start).


- JS.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 15 March 2017 at 18:19, js--- via cctalk  wrote:
> Maybe cognitive delay is a good thing.   Separates the wheat from the chaff.
>
> Eg. "God forbid" there be automobiles with only one button (start).


Heh! Good point.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On 15 March 2017 at 02:23, Chris Hanson via cctalk
 wrote:
> A lot of research and development went into the Lisa and Macintosh 
> interfaces. They weren’t just “copied from Xerox.” If you sit someone who 
> knows how to use a Mac in front of a circa-1979 Xerox Alto, they’ll be pretty 
> mystified.


Absolutely -- but people who only know modern GUIs do not know this.

I have had just 1 chance to use a live working original Lisa. I was
fairly mystified myself. It's radically different from the Mac, and
the Lisa was radically different from the Xerox machines, from all the
demos I've seen.

I wrote here ( 
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/03/thank_microsoft_for_linux_desktop_fail/
) about how much almost all modern desktop GUIs inherit from Windows
95, and how much Windows got from the Mac.

Only if you use pre-Windows 3/OS2 PM GUIs do you realise how
different, and diverse, they once were.
-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053

Re: I hate the new mail system

[Eric Christopherson via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:44 AM, drlegendre . via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I was wondering why 99% of my cctalk shows up as "read mail".. =/
>
> What a PITA, I can't tell what I have read from what I have not read - is
> this part of the 'new' system?
>

You mean in Gmail? I don't have that problem with mine. Do you perhaps have
a filter that automatically marks them read, which wasn't being run before?

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[ben via cctalk]

On 3/15/2017 5:02 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk
 wrote:

On 2017-03-15 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:



The whole idea of an "operating system"  seems to have morphed into the
notion of a user interface.

To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user
interface build on a single operating system.



Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have
morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"?



1983. All the world's a VAX.


Running BSD


1993. No sorry, all the world's a SPARC.


Running Solaris


2013. Oops, no, all the world's an x86.


Running Linux

I'm waiting for the rise of cell phones to make it

202x All the world's an ARM running Android

Warner


 Raspberry Pi seems to be the TREND with embedded things.

 I bring you THE PDP 8/I KIT. 1 PI with Front Panel.
 http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence

And for you OLD PEOPLE you GET MEL's Computer.

http://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence
No Vacuum tubes have been harmed in this FPGA replica of the
LPG-30 - Desk Optional.


well 6502 people, this is your DAY.
MOnSter Cpu ... discreet transistors.
http://monster6502.com/

Ben.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Alfred M. Szmidt via cctalk]

   >  Smalltalk invented scrollbars (they were clumsier than
   > Apple's though) in the mid 70s.

   Right. The typical desktop scroll bar as thought of today, however,
   like typical desktop windows and menus, are largely an Apple
   refinement if not invention.

Those where already available on the Xerox Star.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 9:35 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 15 March 2017 at 14:17, geneb via cctalk  wrote:
> > Well hooray for Xerox.  Apple still obtained the concepts from Xerox,
> > regardless of the mechanism.
>
> Only some and only very basic ones.
>
> Icons for files, the "OK" and "Cancel" buttons, scroll bars, all kinds
> of utterly basic stuff were invented at Apple.
>

The Star introduced the concept of icons representing files (and other
things) in 1981.  Smalltalk invented scrollbars (they were clumsier than
Apple's though) in the mid 70s.

Also, don't forget that the Mac was designed by a number of ex-PARC
researchers.  It may have been invented at Apple, but it was strongly
influenced by what went on at PARC.

- Josh

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 3/15/17 10:40 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> > the Mac was designed by a number of ex-PARC
> > researchers.
>
> Steve Capps was the only person on the original Mac team who worked at
> PARC.
> They were influenced strongly by the UI and graphics work of Lisa.
>

Wasn't Bruce Horn at PARC (at least as a student?).  But you're right, I
should have specified Mac and/or Lisa...

- Josh



>
> There were several ex-Xerox (PARC and SDD) people on Lisa, Frank Ludolph,
> for
> example, who was an author of the Lisa UI paper I pointed to yesterday.
>
> Jean-Louis Gassée was the person who was the manager of engineering when
> Nubus
> was added to the Mac. He had "Open Mac" as his license plate at the time.
>
> http://kootenaymac.blogspot.com/2016/08/vintage-macintosh-
> 87-open-mac-license.html
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=ED8EMBAJ=PT20;
> lpg=PT20=%22open+mac%22+license+plate=bl=GNixQxKrJP=a-
> 22GlibEC6GLAUaEZF0PAgP_qU=en=X=0ahUKEwjI5YWGidnSAhWHwVQKHauYC
> e8Q6AEIIjAB#v=onepage=%22open%20mac%22%20license%20plate=false
>
>
>

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Raymond Wiker via cctalk]

> On 15 Mar 2017, at 16:37 , Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Raymond Wiker
> 
>> Steve Jobs ... was also a stickler for perfection and largely unwilling
>> to make compromises.
> 
> Absolutely; and that's a large part of the reason for the success of Apple.
> His products were just really well done.
> 
> It's also, I think, a big part of the causality for another Apple
> characteristic: their push for closed systems. The thing is that Steve wanted
> to make the user experience as good as possible (another hallmark of Apple
> stuff) - and when the 'system' includes pieces being independently sourced
> from multiple entities, it's hard to make that happen - there will be
> glitches, etc. So that's why he usually wanted to bring the entire thing
> inside the Apple envelope.
> 
>> So, Steve Jobs ... should get some of the credit for the fact that
>> we're not all running Windows on variations of crappy PC hardware.
> 
> I think that's not accurate; Linux may not have a large user base among
> non-technical people in the laptop area, but it does show that there are other
> alternatives. And when it gets to smart-phones, of course, things which are
> neither Apple nor uSloth are the majority there, no?
> 

I was hoping, for the longest time, that Linux or the various BSDs would break 
the Windows dominance. That never happened, except for in certain areas, like 
server and HPC applications.

As for smart-phones, it was Apple that introduced the idea of having 
smart-phones that were almost all battery and display, and using a purely 
graphical/touch interface. That class of device might have emerged eventually 
without Apple, but it's a fact that most of the mobile phone vendors had to do 
a lot of redesign in a short time after the iPhone was introduced (or a few 
months before, in the case of Google).

If you haven't guessed, I like Apple – for several reasons, but mainly because 
they make good, solid products that work well, and they actually work well for 
both ordinary users and enthusiasts. I have absolutely no problem with paying a 
little extra for a computer that lasts a little longer, keeps its value longer 
and works better in many ways, both subtle and obvious. 

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 3/15/17 10:40 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> the Mac was designed by a number of ex-PARC
> researchers.

Steve Capps was the only person on the original Mac team who worked at PARC.
They were influenced strongly by the UI and graphics work of Lisa.

There were several ex-Xerox (PARC and SDD) people on Lisa, Frank Ludolph, for
example, who was an author of the Lisa UI paper I pointed to yesterday.

Jean-Louis Gassée was the person who was the manager of engineering when Nubus
was added to the Mac. He had "Open Mac" as his license plate at the time.

http://kootenaymac.blogspot.com/2016/08/vintage-macintosh-87-open-mac-license.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=ED8EMBAJ=PT20=PT20=%22open+mac%22+license+plate=bl=GNixQxKrJP=a-22GlibEC6GLAUaEZF0PAgP_qU=en=X=0ahUKEwjI5YWGidnSAhWHwVQKHauYCe8Q6AEIIjAB#v=onepage=%22open%20mac%22%20license%20plate=false

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 3/15/17 11:08 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:

> Wasn't Bruce Horn at PARC (at least as a student?).

yes, he worked in the Smalltalk group.
I also forgot about Bob Beleville.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[geneb via cctalk]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Liam Proven wrote:


Yeah, god forbid you confuse the poor user with more than one button.


Jeez, Gene, can't you find some _new_ nonsense?

Why?  The old nonsense still works!  I gotta bring it out now and again to 
keep the rust off and the joints moving freely. :)



This one is quantifiable and measurable. More buttons means more
cognitive delay. For years and decades. It has been _proved_ slower.
Yes we're all used to it now, but you just have not read the HCI
research if you are still reciting this tired stale old B S.


ITYM, "more buttons confuse those with cognitive delay". :)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[geneb via cctalk]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux?


I'm pretty sure Android runs on top of Linux.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Ardent Titan

[Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk]

Hello,

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Randy Dawson via cctech
 wrote:
>
> Kubota (who purchased Stardent) put the rendering software, Dore' in the 
> public domain.  I have built it here under FreeBSD on a PC; it was in the 
> ports system for a while, and without to much messing with,
> I got the demos running (FLAG, a flag blowing in the wind, with controls for 
> wind speed and direction, controlled by the knob box) are still impressive.

Interesting. Is the source for Dore still available? I did a quick
search with Google, but didn't find anything.

Have a nice day.
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

Re: Univac I memory tank

[Marc Howard via cctalk]

Adds a whole new dimension to the term "memory leak".

Marc

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 6:32 AM, dwight via cctalk 
wrote:

> I can't imagine why it needed to be reworked. That is only what I was
> told. I always thought it was kind of funny.
>
> The Olivetti used a piece of wire for the delay line. I forget what the
> Dielh Combitron used but I know it used a two delay lines. One was for
> registers and the other was for lookup tables that loaded at turn on time
> from a metal tape ( as I recall ).
>
> Dwight
>
>
> 
> From: cctalk  on behalf of Pontus Pihlgren
> via cctalk 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 1:11:10 AM
> To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Univac I memory tank
>
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 05:41:57PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> > > From: Dwight Kelvey
> >
> > > I need on of those.
> >
> > I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it
> work, of
> > course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left
> in
> > the world?
>
> CHM has one: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X976.89
>
> It used to be on display, perhaps it still is.
>
> /P
>

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux?



On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:13 PM, geneb via cctalk  wrote:

I'm pretty sure Android runs on top of Linux.

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

Android runs a hacked BSD libc on top of a linux kernel.


Thank you very much for confirming that


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

It's also, I think, a big part of the causality for another Apple
characteristic: their push for closed systems. The thing is that Steve wanted
to make the user experience as good as possible (another hallmark of Apple
stuff) - and when the 'system' includes pieces being independently sourced
from multiple entities, it's hard to make that happen - there will be
glitches, etc. So that's why he usually wanted to bring the entire thing
inside the Apple envelope.


A closed system (aka "monopoly") has significant characteristics.
1) lack of difficulty integrating "other" peripheral stuff, through 
greater quality control, and INABILITY to add "other" peripheral stuff.
Examples: a) MFM V RLL V ESDI V SCSI hard disks - much more struggle for 
users than "here is THE drive.  Buy it. It JUST works."

(Q: which meaning of "just" is that?  simply? or barely?)
b) specific example: Sunshine EPROM programmer (ISA almost free)
specific example: ECC memory board  (I don't think that Apple was even 
using parity)


2) MAJOR hurdles to development of an after-market industry.
I've heard that Jobs was displeased when he was shown the numbers of what 
percentage of Apple2 disk drives were being purchased from vendors other 
than Apple.

Woz ENCOURAGED an after-market   ("open" system)
Jobs sought to eliminate or at least rein it in.

A closed system tends to be more profitable to the controller of it, but 
can be presented to the public as a means of quality control.

Check out the "right to repair" link that Chuck gave us!
"Replacing a bad screen on an iPhone must be prevented, because it is TOO 
DANGEROUS, and a consumer could cut a finger on the broken glass!"




I think that's not accurate; Linux may not have a large user base among
non-technical people in the laptop area, but it does show that there are other
alternatives. And when it gets to smart-phones, of course, things which are
neither Apple nor uSloth are the majority there, no?


On computers, the OS is predominantly Windoze and Apple, with Linux and 
Chrome as less common, but present alternatives.

on Phones, the OS is predominantly Android and Apple.
How successful will Microsoft's tablet OS be?

Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux?



   > What the Apple folks saw and what was implemented for Lisa and then
   > Macintosh were vastly different.
I don't agree with the "vastly". (Having said that, I salute the Lisa/Mac
people for doing a very good job of producing a excellent user interface.)


"copied from" V "based on" V "inspired by"?
Apple didn't "steal" it; the PARC researchers encouraged them to go with 
it.

Apple was not that open when it was their turn to be copied from, when
DRI produced GEM, or MICROS~1 produced Windoze 2.

(There was a conflict, that keeps recurring in this industry!  Apple had 
agreed to let MICROS~1 use certain stuff in Windoze; but then felt that 
Windoze 2 was a different product (citing "ALL NEW!" marketing) that 
wasn't included in the agreement.
But, that is not the only time.  Seattle Computer Products was 
"grandfathered" royalty free unlimited license to MS-DOS.  When SCP was 
on the rocks and considering selling out to AT, etc. ("assets include 
unlimited license to MS-DOS"), MICROS~1 took the stance that that would 
not apply to anything but Verion 1.  In an uncharacteristically 
reasonable move, MICROS~1 bought SCP, keeping it off the market without a 
battle.)




   > - The one-button mouse.
Err, some of us don't see that as an 'improvement'... :-)


some point to "cognitive delay"
some point to simpler instructions in documentation

I loved the Logitech 3 button mouse.
For a while, I even velcro'ed the PCJr keyboard on top of its mouse!

> If you sit someone who knows how to use a Mac in front of a circa-1979 
> Xerox Alto, they'll be pretty mystified.

"Hello, computer"
"Use the mouse."
"Hello, computer" (into mouse)



Yeah, but that's in good part because the Alto user interface is such a dog's
breakfast - Draw is nothing like Bravo is nothing like etc, etc. But, like I
said, that was inevitable, given the process that produced the Alto.


early attempt/prototype/proof of concept  V  later evolved/refined product


I only played with a Lisa once.  My cousin, David Ungar, was working on 
Smalltalk, and had a pre-release one in his office in Evans Hall. I bet 
him that they could not find ANY of their floppies that did not yet have a 
thumbprint on the media.  When he put on gloves to open a fresh box, did 
that count?
I tried to make an extra floppy for it, but 300 Oersted ("360K") did not 
work.
"'Maserati of the mind'?  Yeah.  Fantastic toy!  I want one!  But 
way too expensive for me, and unusable for my rush-hour commute with no 
place to put a sack of groceries or a bunch of computers."



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: AC magnetic field strengths

[Tapley, Mark via cctalk]

On Mar 15, 2017, at 12:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
wrote:

> I bought an AlphaLabs GM-2 Gaussmeter for another project, and measured the 
> AC magnetic
> field strength touching these devices yesterday, since I really didn't have 
> any idea beyond
> order of magnitude what they might be
> 
> Handheld tape head demagnetizer: 40 Gauss
> GC Elec 9317 CRT degausing coil: 70 Gauss
> Audiolab TD-3 desktop bulk eraser: 1000 Gauss
> Inmac 7180 or
> RS 44-233A handheld bulk tape erasers: 2000 Gauss
> 
> 
> 
> also the DC field of a 1/4" button super magnet like on the
> backs of clip on badges is about 3000 Gauss

More context available at:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(magnetic_field)

ranging from 50 femtoGauss (what the Gravity Probe B SQUID magnetometers 
measured with several days’ averaging) to 100 MegaGauss (strongest pulsed field 
ever obtained at Sandia Labs).

Interestingly that page claims 12.5 kGauss for a "neodymium–iron–boron (Nd2 
Fe14 B) rare earth magnet” (subscripts on the atomic symbols got converted to 
plain text during cut-n-paste). Guess the badges have weaker versions?

Interesting to compare earth field and the badge fastener field to practical 
exposure limit for pacemakers - only about a factor of 10 at the poles - and to 
loudspeaker coils, which are 5000 times above the recommended pacemaker limit. 

Now I know why people with pacemakers don’t like rock music (and name tags)!

:-)

- Mark

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Todd Goodman via cctalk]

* Fred Cisin via cctalk  [170315 14:48]:
[..SNIP..]
> 
> Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux?

[..SNIP..]

I'd argue that the OS used by Android *is* Linux (with some small
modifications.)

Of course the user interface and lots of other functions is a huge
amount of code running in user space.

Todd

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:13 PM, geneb via cctalk  wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux?
>>
> I'm pretty sure Android runs on top of Linux.

Android runs a hacked BSD libc on top of a linux kernel.

Warner

Re: Old Honeywell uPAC parts looking for a new home

[Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk]

That's sad :-(
I did not even have the opportunity to check if they would have helped 
me to get my DDP-516 back to life - I am missing two ICs.

Who took them?

Kind regards

Philipp

Am 13.03.2017 um 04:39 schrieb Todd Pisek via cctech:

The uPAC modules have been claimed.

Re: Ardent Titan

[Jan Adelsbach via cctalk]

Hello,

On 03/15/2017 06:31 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctech wrote:

Hello,

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Randy Dawson via cctech
 wrote:


Kubota (who purchased Stardent) put the rendering software, Dore' in the public 
domain.  I have built it here under FreeBSD on a PC; it was in the ports system 
for a while, and without to much messing with,
I got the demos running (FLAG, a flag blowing in the wind, with controls for 
wind speed and direction, controlled by the knob box) are still impressive.


Interesting. Is the source for Dore still available? I did a quick
search with Google, but didn't find anything.

Have a nice day.



had a search earlier today for it as well, here you go:
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/packages/development/graphics/Dore/

- Jan

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

This one is quantifiable and measurable. More buttons means more
cognitive delay.

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, js--- via cctalk wrote:

Maybe cognitive delay is a good thing.   Separates the wheat from the chaff.


hmmm.


Eg. "God forbid" there be automobiles with only one button (start).

They are headed in that direction.
Driverless cars are fine.  So long as there is a licensed driver with 
hands on the wheel and feet on the pedals.

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/15/2017 12:10 PM, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote:
> * Fred Cisin via cctalk  [170315 14:48]: 
> [..SNIP..]
>> 
>> Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux?
> 
> [..SNIP..]
> 
> I'd argue that the OS used by Android *is* Linux (with some small 
> modifications.)
> 
> Of course the user interface and lots of other functions is a huge 
> amount of code running in user space.

The whole idea of an "operating system"  seems to have morphed into the
notion of a user interface.

To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user
interface build on a single operating system.

I recall that back in the days of Windows 95, MS defended it as an
"operating system" (re: the default inclusion of MSIE in the same),
rather than a user interface built on top of MSDOS.

I once had a fellow proclaim that his group had constructed an entire
operating system in COBOL.  When I asked him about his file management,
he said that it was handled by the kernel and not the operating system.

One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of
definitions.

I always wondered about the wisdom of single-sourcing storage devices
such as the Next optical drive, the Twiggy or the SuperDrive of the
early Macs.

--Chuck

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[geneb via cctalk]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Warner Losh wrote:


On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 1:13 PM, geneb via cctalk  wrote:

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


Below the user interface, is Android very similar to Linux?


I'm pretty sure Android runs on top of Linux.


Android runs a hacked BSD libc on top of a linux kernel.


Thus "on top of Linux".

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Univac I memory tank

[Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 05:41:57PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> > From: Dwight Kelvey
> 
> > I need on of those.
> 
> I think it belongs in a museum, actually. Provided they can make it work, of
> course! :-) I wonder how many working delay line main memories are left in
> the world?

CHM has one: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X976.89

It used to be on display, perhaps it still is.

/P

Re: Ardent Titan

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 06:19:41PM +, Randy Dawson via cctech wrote:
> It was in FreeBSD ports, in graphics but they removed it (why?).

portsjail% grep dore MOVED
graphics/dore||2011-05-02|Has expired: Upstream disappeared and distfile is no 
longer available

So, someone would have to take on the work of making a "real" upstream
and then resubmit the port.  (hint: FreeBSD requires a non-null maintainer
for new ports :-) )

mcl

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Alfred M. Szmidt via cctalk]

   Icons for files, the "OK" and "Cancel" buttons, scroll bars, all kinds
   of utterly basic stuff were invented at Apple.

Well, other than that it wasn't.

Mac HFS file recovery; was: Pair of Twiggys

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Folks,

I was asked to recover files from an old Apple Hard Disk 20 drive
(Miniscribe 20MB SCSI).   I've been able to read all but two
widely-spaced sectors, but no Mac HFS file recovery tool that I've been
able to find works.

Anyone want to take a crack at it before I resort to extracting strings
from the raw drive?  The funny thing is that I can see the data, but
nothing seems to be able to recover it.

The zipped-up dd image is here:


https://expirebox.com/download/d40c6...cba107b8b.html

Thanks,
Chuck

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Mar 15, 2017, at 10:40 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk  
wrote:

> The Star introduced the concept of icons representing files (and other
> things) in 1981.

According to “Inventing the Lisa User Interface,” Apple put emphasis on icons 
in the Lisa interface in its Marketing Requirements Document in 1979. They were 
also considering desktop icons for Lisa in 1980, and initially rejected them. 
They were led back to the model by the results of user testing as well as what 
they read about IBM’s PICTUREWORLD system (paper published in 1980).

Which isn’t to say they didn’t see predecessors of the stuff that shipped with 
Xerox Star. But there was a lot of contemporaneous work after Apple’s 1979 PARC 
visits.

>  Smalltalk invented scrollbars (they were clumsier than
> Apple's though) in the mid 70s.

Right. The typical desktop scroll bar as thought of today, however, like 
typical desktop windows and menus, are largely an Apple refinement if not 
invention.

> Also, don't forget that the Mac was designed by a number of ex-PARC
> researchers.  It may have been invented at Apple, but it was strongly
> influenced by what went on at PARC.

There were only a relative handful of ex-PARC folks involved in Macintosh 
itself, more were involved in Lisa from what I gather.

  -- Chris

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Peter Coghlan via cctalk]

>
> The whole idea of an "operating system"  seems to have morphed into the
> notion of a user interface.
>
> To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user
> interface build on a single operating system.
>

Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have
morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"?

>
> One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of
> definitions.
>

Agreed.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

The whole idea of an "operating system"  seems to have morphed into the
notion of a user interface.
To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user
interface build on a single operating system.
I recall that back in the days of Windows 95, MS defended it as an
"operating system" (re: the default inclusion of MSIE in the same),
rather than a user interface built on top of MSDOS.
I once had a fellow proclaim that his group had constructed an entire
operating system in COBOL.  When I asked him about his file management,
he said that it was handled by the kernel and not the operating system.


I used to teach a beginning microcomputer operating system class.
The administration wanted it to be remedial job training for the digital 
sweatshop, and never go past what commands do you do to format a disk, 
etc., and called for discontinuing the class once Windoze95 came out.
I tried, instead, to create an understanding of what an OS was, as well as 
how to use it, and how to deal with problems.  I dealt with 
sector editing repair of directories, etc.
(In creatively handling user interface problems, I had a test question of: 
"You have a PC-DOS 3.30 PS/2 with a damaged keyboard (Pepsi Syndrome). 
There are other computers handy, but no other keyboards with the right 
connector.  The 'A', 'C', and 'D' keys won't work!  List some ways that 
you can copy files from the hard disk onto floppies")
Among the answers that I would accept were: using  and the numeric 
pad, creating a batch file on another computer, even "REN X?OPY.EXE 
XBOPY.EXE".  One fellow included enough detail about cleaning key contacts 
and/or splicing the keyboard cable onto another one that I accepted that.
I even accepted a moderately detailed description of how to remove the 
hard disk and connect it as temporary second HDD on another computer.

(definitely a question of come up with a way, not "single right answer")


I started the internals discussions with "DOS est omnis divisa in 
partes tres", and wrote on the board:
BIOS(usually ROM)/BDOS/CCP (Console Command Processor) 
ROM/MSDOS.SYS/COMMAND.COM

ROM/IBMDOS.COM/COMMAND.COM
hardware interface/file management/user interface

We then spent some time on what each of those parts was.

It doesn't HAVE TO be three parts, but those are a reasonable division.


I loved how PC-DOS 1.00 documentation included partial description of what 
was needed to write a replacement command processor!




One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of
definitions.


Sometimes I think that it is NIH ("Not Invented Here"), but it seems as 
though a lot of people invent new names for the same things.

block/cluster/granule, etc.



I always wondered about the wisdom of single-sourcing storage devices
such as the Next optical drive, the Twiggy or the SuperDrive of the
early Macs.


I was surprised that Jobs didn't make the Lisa floppy 5.0 or 5.5 inches,
and used a relatively standard drive for the Mac.  I would have thought 
that he would want people to buy even their media from Apple.
For people who think that that is absurd, remember that there have been 
more than one machine that was capable of formatting it's own diskettes, 
but was not supplied with a FORMAT program.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 03/14/2017 10:02 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote:
> This statement is hurting my brain. I was never an Apple (company)
> user or fan but personally felt the Apple product line was hacker
> friendly before the Apple II c threatened to void your warranty if
> opened, then the Mac seemed to follow similar unfriendly EULAS. But
> then again I wouldn't have guess GUI would win the UI war either when
> it was so great to type exactly what you needed with minimal system
> resources. Admittedly my opinions seem to only satisfy myself ;-) You
> prefer Apple and expansions or Mac II?  Original message


Apple still up to the same business fighting the same battle.  No "right
to repair" old iJunk:

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/source-apple-will-fight-right-to-repair-legislation

--Chuck

Re: Pair of Twiggys

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 2017-03-15 5:17 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The whole idea of an "operating system"  seems to have morphed into the
>>> notion of a user interface.
>>>
>>> To my way of thinking,t he various flavors of Linux are really a user
>>> interface build on a single operating system.
>>>
>>
>> Has anybody else noticed that the meaning of "portable code" seems to have
>> morphed into "can be built on two or three different flavours of Linux"?
>
>
> 1983. All the world's a VAX.

Running BSD

> 1993. No sorry, all the world's a SPARC.

Running Solaris

> 2013. Oops, no, all the world's an x86.

Running Linux

I'm waiting for the rise of cell phones to make it

202x All the world's an ARM running Android

Warner

> --T
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> One thing you can depend upon in this field is the inconstancy of
>>> definitions.
>>>
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Peter Coghlan
>>
>