Re: Servant .953

[Al Kossow]

sorry, I was looking at archived mail from 2010 and didn't realize it..

On 5/26/16 9:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> 
> On 5/7/10 11:35 AM, Roger Holmes wrote:
>>
>> Could developers modify it any include it in heir commercial 64 bit Intel 
>> applications for instance?
>>
> 
> No
> 
> It was made available by Apple for non-commercial use
> 
> 

Re: Servant .953

[Al Kossow]

On 5/7/10 11:35 AM, Roger Holmes wrote:
> 
> Could developers modify it any include it in heir commercial 64 bit Intel 
> applications for instance?
> 

No

It was made available by Apple for non-commercial use

Re: vintage computers in active use

[William Donzelli]

> Another CHM volunteer (from the PDP-1 Restoration Project) and I
> pushed for an IBM 360/30 Restoration Project, and the ability to build
> replacements for failed SLT modules was part of our plan.

I am still trying to figure in which universe are SLT modules so rare
that one needs to fabricate replacements.

--
Will

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Eric Smith]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> On 05/26/2016 06:18 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
>>
>> It was a few years ago now and it's third hand - but I was told that the
>> US Navy still maintained a shop dedicated exclusively to repairing IBM SLT
>> modules... can't vouch for the veracity of that; perhaps someone else can.
>> http://www.corestore.org
>
> Hmm, I've thought about this a bit.  I think one could make up replacement
> SLT modules with little PC boards and SOT23 transistors and 0805 or 0603 SMT
> resistors.  SLT modules had very little on them, something like 2
> transistors and 4 diodes and some resistors.
>
> I was thinking about this in relation to keeping a mid-size 360 running for
> a few hours a month at a museum, like the 1401 at CHM. But, it would sure
> work for actual full-time operation, too.

Another CHM volunteer (from the PDP-1 Restoration Project) and I
pushed for an IBM 360/30 Restoration Project, and the ability to build
replacements for failed SLT modules was part of our plan.  I donated a
2540 Reader Punch to CHM with the hope that it would be used on the
360/30, but unfortunately I missed out on getting the 2821 Control
Unit that went with it.

Unfortunately, for various reasons it is unlikely that the CHM 360/30
will be restored.

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-05-26 10:48 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:

Toby Thain wrote:


On 2016-05-26 3:17 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:

Fred Cisin wrote:


On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote:

A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this 
morning too:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839
extract:
The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated
intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support 
aircraft
"runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses
eight-inch floppy disks".


"This system remains in use because, in short, it still works,"
Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency.

And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware
and software, to put an end to that.  Windows10 can change that.


Since Windows 10 is out, many security aware people here in germany
dropping Microsoft Software if they can and you think it would be a good
idea to control nuclear wheapons with this kind of crap?

Nothanks. This game is over.


In case you missed it:


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nuclearpower-cyber-germany-idUSKCN0XN2OS

It's only a matter of time.

--Toby



Yes, this is only one of the reasons I don't like Windows, but the
germanys government has decided to shut down any nuclear plant anyways
after the fukushima desaster.

But controlling weapons wth Windoze would be another story.



Not necessarily true. Few weapons (perhaps none, but I'm not an expert 
on nuclear physics) can do as much harm as a failed nuclear plant.


--Toby



Regards,

Holm

Re: vintage computers in active use

[geneb]

I begged for it anyway, and was told that because it was part of an active
program (testing for some fighter jet), it was still in use.  When I
suggested modernizing, I was told that changing the hardware would require
*re-certifying the entire workflow*.  In other words, it was far more
economical to maintain a 70's era computer than spec, design, acquire/build
and certify a new system.

Considering how military avionics systems work, this is entirely 
plausible.  Consider that up until (at least) 1998, the F-15C's tactical 
electronic warfare system was run by a 6800B.  The person I was discussing 
this with had designed a replacement that operated around a SoS 80386 and 
could run rings around what the 6800B system could do.  His company 
dropped the project because they couldn't afford the certification 
process just to build a test model.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

RE: vintage computers in active use

[geneb]

On Thu, 26 May 2016, Jay West wrote:


Interesting to note - pick basic used p-code. The basic "compiler" (written


It still does, unless the code (under D3) has been "flash" compiled - 
which turns the BASIC code into C and then feeds THAT into cc.


Note that the BASIC compiler in OpenQM (and Scarlet DME) is written in 
BASIC - it outputs p-code.  If you're into Pick at all (or curious to see 
how it works), grab a copy of Scarlet DME (linked in my sig) and root 
around in the GPL.BP directory - all the system tools code is in there.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Chuck Guzis]

On 05/26/2016 06:20 PM, Toby Thain wrote:

> While the existence of such projects is ... questionable to begin
> with, one might think the continual under-delivery (across all
> military boondoggles) might give taxpayers pause.

I see a lot of "we're going to do it because we can, not because it's
really needed" in all of this stuff.

It's not just the military, either.  My wife and I are getting estimates
to replace the heat pump in the house.  The old one has put in 24 good
years, but is developing issues and uses R22 refrigerant which will
shortly be next to unobtainium.  Time to replace.

What bowled me over was getting a system quote that involved a
"connected" thermostat--a
full-color-touchscreen-Wifi-interface-web-connected unit.  When I said I
didn't *want* a "connected" thermostat, but merely a simple programmable
one, the reply came back that I couldn't have one--the whizbang one was
standard for the quoted system.

Next, I suppose my toothbrush will give me the weather forecast and
latest stock quotes...

After about a decade, I still haven't read the rather lengthy manual
that came with my stereo receiver--I dropped out when the topic came to
"setup menus"  (plural).

--Chuck

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-05-26 2:39 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Fred Cisin  wrote:



And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware
and software, to put an end to that.  Windows10 can change that.



Yes, and while we're at it, put it in "the cloud" so that the we can have
an app for "red button." ;) What could possibly go wrong?




We're pretty much already there.

Audits of the F35 software found:
 * single points of failure (grounding global fleet)
 * security issues
 * that software is the single biggest risk to the project

It's not clear how much Microsoft is already in that loop.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2016-04-21/gao-questions-deployability-redundancy-f-35-alis-system 
etc


While the existence of such projects is ... questionable to begin with, 
one might think the continual under-delivery (across all military 
boondoggles) might give taxpayers pause.


--Toby

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-05-26 3:17 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:

Fred Cisin wrote:


On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote:

A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this 
morning too:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839
extract:
The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated
intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support 
aircraft
"runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses
eight-inch floppy disks".


"This system remains in use because, in short, it still works,"
Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency.

And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware
and software, to put an end to that.  Windows10 can change that.


Since Windows 10 is out, many security aware people here in germany
dropping Microsoft Software if they can and you think it would be a good
idea to control nuclear wheapons with this kind of crap?

Nothanks. This game is over.


In case you missed it:


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nuclearpower-cyber-germany-idUSKCN0XN2OS

It's only a matter of time.

--Toby




..and guys, since Snowden and Manning the Worlds point of view about the United 
States
and it's "No Such Agency" has changed..entirely.
Don't know if it would be an good idea to additional elect Trump..

Regards,

Holm

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Jon Elson]

On 05/26/2016 06:18 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
It was a few years ago now and it's third hand - but I was 
told that the US Navy still maintained a shop dedicated 
exclusively to repairing IBM SLT modules... can't vouch 
for the veracity of that; perhaps someone else can. 
http://www.corestore.org
Hmm, I've thought about this a bit.  I think one could make 
up replacement SLT modules with little PC boards and SOT23 
transistors and 0805 or 0603 SMT resistors.  SLT modules had 
very little on them, something like 2 transistors and 4 
diodes and some resistors.


I was thinking about this in relation to keeping a mid-size 
360 running for a few hours a month at a museum, like the 
1401 at CHM. But, it would sure work for actual full-time 
operation, too.


Jon

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Chuck Guzis]

On 05/26/2016 05:57 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

> The B2 bomber gets the mission data loaded on a Maxxoptix optical 
> cartridge.  I recognized it as I have a Maxxoptix drive here.  Not
> quite as old as 7-track mag tape, but a fairly old technology.  it
> was probably state of the art when the were first designing the B2.


I believe that some old DEC gear may still be in use at Warner-Robbins
to maintain C130 transports.  I used to have some RX02 floppies for that
stuff (probably still do, but I don't know where I put them.)

--Chuck

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Jon Elson]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile
Sent: 26 May 2016 18:47
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

They used 7 track tapes for Nike Ajax targeting data that could not be
erased

due to how they were recorded.


The B2 bomber gets the mission data loaded on a Maxxoptix 
optical cartridge.  I recognized it as I have a Maxxoptix 
drive here.  Not quite as old as 7-track mag tape, but a 
fairly old technology.  it was probably state of the art 
when the were first designing the B2.


Jon

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 27 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote:

So I was broadly right that the 8088/8086 sit somewhere on the
dividing line? That at least is good to know!


Of course.
That is exactly the point.
How you draw the line, determines which side it will fall, and it is right 
in the middle, so many otherwise reasonable definitions will differ on 
that group of chips, since it IS in between an 8 bit and 16 bit.
Either an 8 bit that has been expanded to SOME 16 bit capabilities, or a 
16 bit that has been cut down into an 8 bit.

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Liam Proven]

On 24 May 2016 at 23:10, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> Whether 8088 was an "8 bit" or "16 bit" processor depends heavily on how you
> define those.
> Or, you could phrase it, that the 8 bit processors at the time handled 64KiB
> of RAM.


OK, thank you all for the responses.

Rarely have I felt so lectured and indeed talked-down-to in CCmp. :-D

No, it's a fair cop, I egregiously over-simplified my comment.

So let me try to address (haha) that.

Most 8-bit CPUs that I knew of had a 16-bit address bus, and thus were
limited to 64kB of physical memory (excluding bank switching )

Most 16-bit CPUs I knew of (ignoring issues of internal ALU width
etc.) had 24-bit address buses and could thus handle 16MB of physical
memory. This includes cut-down internally-32-bit-wide devices such as
the 80386SX and 68000.

The 8088/8086 had a 20-bit address bus, differing mainly in the width
of the *data* bus, and the later 80286 had a 16-bit address bus.

So, yes, generally, 8-bitters could handle 64kB but 16-bitters 16MB.
As far as memory *size* considerations go, the width of the data bus,
multiplexing or multicycle accesses etc. are not germane to the
quantity of addressable memory.

So I was broadly right that the 8088/8086 sit somewhere on the
dividing line? That at least is good to know!

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Mike Ross]

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 4:27 AM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:
> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this 
> morning too:
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839
>
> extract:
> The report said that the Department of Defence systems that 
> co-ordinated
> intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker 
> support aircraft
> "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and 
> uses
> eight-inch floppy disks".

It was a few years ago now and it's third hand - but I was told that
the US Navy still maintained a shop dedicated exclusively to repairing
IBM SLT modules... can't vouch for the veracity of that; perhaps
someone else can.

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Ian S. King]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Noel Chiappa 
wrote:

> > From: Ethan O'Toole
>
> > Might not be a bad idea to make a wiki page somewhere and ... source
> > generic replacements. This way vendor/part# of modern replacements
> can
> > be had for old belt drive floppys and computer tape drives?
> > I think the audio cassette deck enthusiasts do something like this
>
> Excellent idea. The data can be put on the Computer History wiki; I've been
> putting a lot of PDP-11 info up there. Let me know if you have data to
> post,
> and can't get access.
>
>
> > From: Paul Koning
>
> > It clearly is not all that accurate. In a discussion of "old"
> systems,
> > it mentions a system with "reported age 52 years" but it "runs on
> > windows server 2008 and is programmed in Java". ... A number of other
> > examples are similar. For example, a "56 year old" IRS system that
> > actually runs on an IBM z series machine from 2010.
>
> Perhaps this is just sloppy writing, and they really 'the application is 52
> years old, but it has been translated into Java'? And the latter one could
> easily be System/360 code from 56 years ago, running on a z series.
>
> Noel
>

Back to the original story: there's another angle on this with government
work.  I once tried to acquire a vintage system through an auction house.
We (LCM) won the auction, but the next day the auction house refunded our
money - apparently the machine was pushed into the wrong room and was not
to be auctioned off.

I begged for it anyway, and was told that because it was part of an active
program (testing for some fighter jet), it was still in use.  When I
suggested modernizing, I was told that changing the hardware would require
*re-certifying the entire workflow*.  In other words, it was far more
economical to maintain a 70's era computer than spec, design, acquire/build
and certify a new system.

I suspect that "journalism" like this is prompted by (and likely paid for)
by companies who profit from getting people on the endless-upgrade
merry-go-round.  But then I'm cantankerous that way. Cheers -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect?

[Stefan Skoglund (lokal]

tor 2016-05-26 klockan 11:21 -0700 skrev Ian McLaughlin: 
> Last year I made a day trip from Kelowna BC to Seattle Washington to pick up 
> a Northstar Horizon, and I paid cash ($100 if I recall correctly).
> 
> When I arrived back at the border, I got the third degree about the computer. 
> The agent didn’t believe that I would make a 14 hour round trip to pick up 
> something worth $100 and that it must be worth much more. After much arguing 
> and showing him emails on my phone about negotiating the purchase he decided 
> to let me go, but warned me that next time I did something like this I should 
> at the very minimum bring paper copies of any emails negotiating such a 
> purchase.  Normally all my hassles at the border are at the US end, but this 
> was on the Canadian side re-entering my own country. I was disappointed.
> 
> Ian

The same type of guy which would ask me:

ARE you doing this for FREE (asked while i'm sweating down in the
machine room of a steamer (while it is 30 degrees celsius outside), it
is around 50 degrees or so in front of the boiler. They can't understand
why someone would something which looks like $work UNPAID.

Yes i'm and i also had to pay for the morning's travel to the port and i
also pay out of my own wallet then it is time to take that so very
important course if i'm to become a legitimized steam boat chief (full
time study work for 6 months - you need to eat and pay rent while doing
that...)

And think then about how nice it is doing maintenance work in the winter
or that other leisure : running a steam engine occasionaly in the winter
too.

Your little road trip - well you paid petrol prices which is a bit below
european prices.
14 hours -- 1000 km drive ?
75 liter of petrol - in swedish prices that is around 121 Euros, so
including petrol you paid around 200 euros (swedish prices for the
petrol) for the computer.

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Ethan O'Toole

> Might not be a bad idea to make a wiki page somewhere and ... source
> generic replacements. This way vendor/part# of modern replacements can
> be had for old belt drive floppys and computer tape drives?
> I think the audio cassette deck enthusiasts do something like this

Excellent idea. The data can be put on the Computer History wiki; I've been
putting a lot of PDP-11 info up there. Let me know if you have data to post,
and can't get access.


> From: Paul Koning

> It clearly is not all that accurate. In a discussion of "old" systems,
> it mentions a system with "reported age 52 years" but it "runs on
> windows server 2008 and is programmed in Java". ... A number of other
> examples are similar. For example, a "56 year old" IRS system that
> actually runs on an IBM z series machine from 2010.

Perhaps this is just sloppy writing, and they really 'the application is 52
years old, but it has been translated into Java'? And the latter one could
easily be System/360 code from 56 years ago, running on a z series.

Noel

RE: vintage computers in active use

[Jay West]

Chuck wrote...

Meh, I'll not too willingly concede that one.  P-code is also a made-up
machine language.


But one difference I'll toss out there... p-code wasn't meant to be written
in directly. Pick assembler was; so it included the full suite of ORG, EQU,
MACRO, LIST, NOLIST type directives. I doubt most pcode does.

Interesting to note - pick basic used p-code. The basic "compiler" (written
in pick assembler) turned basic source into a byte oriented p-code. It was
stack oriented, used RPN for expressions; each basic language statement
generated a set of stack operations to perform the statement such that at
the end of that statement everything was back as was before the code stream
for that statement was executed. Of course, this p-code was executed
interpretively. By missionary instructions ;)

J

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Bryan C. Everly]

I did work in UNIX on a Series-1 in the telecom space.  It probably
still is in use.  About like an AS/400.  They were built like tanks
and never seemed to break.

Thanks,
Bryan


On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 12:53 PM, Jay West  wrote:
> Brent wrote...
> --
> The report said that the Department of Defence systems that
> co-ordinated
> intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker
> support aircraft
> "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and
> uses
> eight-inch floppy disks".=
> --
> The series-1 makes such a lovable "Bleet" sound each time you press one of
> the front panel membrane buttons :)
>
> I can confirm first hand that HP1000 M/E/F systems are still in very active
> use both on land and on (and under) sea by US forces.
>
> Best,
>
> J
>
>

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Chuck Guzis]

On 05/26/2016 12:27 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Chuck wrote... (regarding assembly, not machine language): --- 
> "typically tied to hardware"?  Can anyone cite a case where it was
> not? --- Absolutely. The Pick Operating System assembly language.
> They could not afford a machine when they began development of the
> OS. So they wrote the entire OS in a "made up" assembly language that
> didn't really exist on any real machine. This got them two benefits -
> one, didn't have to buy hardware up front, and two, porting the
> entire OS to a completely different platform/architecture was a task
> typically measured in weeks, not months or years. In addition,
> because it was a "mythical" assembly language, it allowed them to
> pretend they had hardware instructions that were unusually well
> suited to manipulating data structures that were unique to the
> database architecture.

Meh, I'll not too willingly concede that one.  P-code is also a made-up
machine language.

Heck, I've been guilty of doing the same--I don't know if I ever
commented on it, but I learned this one from a guy who worked on IBM
COMTRAN.

The task at hand was to quickly write a translator for COBOL that could
take non-standard COBOL constructs and extensions and turn them into
either subroutine calls or standard COBOL.  To do this, you had to
pretty much compile the whole program, then spit out the translation for
compilation by a regular compiler.  A bit complicated in details, but it
was for a multi-mainframe shared-memory realtime transaction-oriented setup.

At any rate, the idea was that you devised a fictional machine whose
inputs were "tokens" and whose output was "code".  So you developed
instructions that operated on these things, masking the details like
token formation, symbol table management, etc.You encoded these into
a fixed instruction format and wrote an interpreter to handle the
operations themselves.  A very quick way to get things going.  When you
were satisfied, the "instructions" could be expanded with the macro
assembler into real machine language for the platform.

While not unique today, this was more than 45 years ago.  I later did a
compiled multi-user BASIC for the 8085 using the same technique.  It
took two of us 4 months to do, using nothing more than a floppy-based
MDS-800 running ISIS-II.  I still have my original design document.

The BASIC was later ported to Unix and, as of last year, I was aware of
at least one installation still using it.

One wonders were Java will be in 45 years...

--Chuck

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Pete Turnbull]

On 26/05/2016 19:03, Brent Hilpert wrote:

All this reminds me of the systems I've missed out on:

A few years ago, a high school acquaintance I chanced to meet and who
was working in operations control at a local oil refinery told me the
large multi-rack PDP-11 system for process control had been
decommissioned and dumped about a year earlier. "Ya, that's too bad,
you could have had it."


Not as long ago as that I was reacquainted with someone I first came 
across dropping hints on Usenet in the late 1990s, who worked at a large 
power station not far from here.  The upshot was an exploratory trip in 
which we filled two large cars, then subsequently overfilled a 3-ton 
truck with PDP-11 equipment and related goodies.


--
Pete

Re: Front panel switches - what did they do?

[Mark Linimon]

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 08:35:33PM +0100, Dave Wade wrote:
> one salesman claims to have sold 1,000.

And we know salesmen would never, ever, lie.

mcl

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Paul Koning]

> On May 26, 2016, at 3:27 PM, Jay West  wrote:
> 
> Chuck wrote... (regarding assembly, not machine language):
> ---
> "typically tied to hardware"?  Can anyone cite a case where it was not?
> ---
> Absolutely. The Pick Operating System assembly language.

MIX would be another example.  Or Alan Kay's "cuneiform tablets" project 
(https://archive.org/details/tr2015004_cuneiform)

paul

RE: vintage computers in active use

[Jay West]

Chuck wrote... (regarding assembly, not machine language):
---
"typically tied to hardware"?  Can anyone cite a case where it was not?
---
Absolutely. The Pick Operating System assembly language. They could not
afford a machine when they began development of the OS. So they wrote the
entire OS in a "made up" assembly language that didn't really exist on any
real machine. This got them two benefits - one, didn't have to buy hardware
up front, and two, porting the entire OS to a completely different
platform/architecture was a task typically measured in weeks, not months or
years. In addition, because it was a "mythical" assembly language, it
allowed them to pretend they had hardware instructions that were unusually
well suited to manipulating data structures that were unique to the database
architecture.

The os was available on around 30 different machines, everything from ibm
4331, IBM RT, PDP11, 68000, X86, etc. On all those it was implemented one of
two ways - software implementation or hardware implementation. For the
hardware implementation, a firmware board provided the real time
translation/lookup of "Pick Instructions" to "native instructions". For the
software implementations, the assembly process was more interesting. You'd
program in Pick assembly language, then run the pick assembler (written in
pick assembler of course). This would produce pick "virtual machine" (in the
mythical hardware sense, not todays virtual sense) machine language. Then
you'd run a BASIC program (hardware specific) that would translate the pick
machine language to the native processor's assembly language. Then you'd run
the native (z8000 for example) assembler to create native machine code. That
could then be loaded for execution.

J

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Paul Berger]

On 2016-05-26 4:01 PM, Diane Bruce wrote:

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 03:31:42PM -0300, Paul Berger wrote:

On 2016-05-26 2:32 PM, Diane Bruce wrote:

...

http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/01/000/186.pdf



Yeah the Bruce plant used to run on PDP-8s, a friend of mine worked
there on a work term in University, he told me they had a garage full of
PDP-8s for spares.  I would imagine when Bruce was refurbished they
where replaced with something more modern.  The Pickering plant was run
by IBM 1800 as where some of the coal fired plants.

Wow! Thanks! I always wondered why Ontario Hydro wanted Craig's PDP-8's ;)


Paul.


Diane
The plant mentioned in the document above Nuclear Demonstration Plant 
(NDP) was the the prototype Candu reactor built at Rolphton Ont. just up 
the river a bit from the Chalk River Nuclear Labs.  It has been long 
decommissioned, the other plant mentioned Bruce, was the second 
commercial Candu site after Douglas Point, and that would have been the 
first phase Bruce "A" the plant was later enlarged with a second set of 
4 reactors.


Paul.

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Holm Tiffe]

Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> > A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this 
> > morning too:
> > http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839
> > extract:
> > The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated
> > intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support 
> > aircraft
> > "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses
> > eight-inch floppy disks".
> 
> "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works,"
> Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency.
> 
> And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware
> and software, to put an end to that.  Windows10 can change that.
> 
Since Windows 10 is out, many security aware people here in germany
dropping Microsoft Software if they can and you think it would be a good
idea to control nuclear wheapons with this kind of crap?

Nothanks. This game is over.

..and guys, since Snowden and Manning the Worlds point of view about the United 
States
and it's "No Such Agency" has changed..entirely.
Don't know if it would be an good idea to additional elect Trump..

Regards,

Holm
-- 
  Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
 Freiberger Straße 42, 09600 Oberschöna, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, i...@tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Diane Bruce]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 03:31:42PM -0300, Paul Berger wrote:
> On 2016-05-26 2:32 PM, Diane Bruce wrote:
...
> >
> > http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/01/000/186.pdf
> >
> >
> Yeah the Bruce plant used to run on PDP-8s, a friend of mine worked 
> there on a work term in University, he told me they had a garage full of 
> PDP-8s for spares.  I would imagine when Bruce was refurbished they 
> where replaced with something more modern.  The Pickering plant was run 
> by IBM 1800 as where some of the coal fired plants.

Wow! Thanks! I always wondered why Ontario Hydro wanted Craig's PDP-8's ;)

> 
> Paul.
> 

Diane
-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db

Re: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?)

[Paul Berger]

On 2016-05-26 1:43 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 05/26/2016 08:54 AM, Paul Koning wrote:


Speaking of ribbons, in college I occasionally used a type of ribbon 
I've never seen on line printers since: a film ribbon. Think of the 
"letter quality" ribbons used on professional typewriters, or daisy 
wheel printers, a thin plastic film with some carbon-like coating on 
one side.  Now make one the width of a line printer ribbon.


Our 360/44 normally used a regular cloth ribbon, but a film ribbon 
could be mounted if desired.  I did so to print my honor's thesis, 
using the film ribbon and the upper/lower case print train (TN 
train?) to print the final text (from RUNOFF on our PDP-11 system, 
which had no line printer).


Yes, that's exactly the purpose they were for.  You mounted the text 
train and a film ribbon, and got a fairly nice looking printout. IBM's 
early manuals were all printed this way, the look was pretty iconic.  
The printed output was then photographed to make offset printing 
plates.  (Later they used IBM composer word processing printers, and 
they looked nicer, with proportional spacing.)


Jon
Not just manuals but also the ALD logic diagrams they where printed on a 
1403 with a special print train.


Paul.

RE: vintage computers in active use

[ethan]

What about rubber belts for floppy drives? Spares will have perished as
well...


Might not be a bad idea to make a wiki page somewhere and measure the 
belts / source generic replacements. This way vendor/part# of modern 
replacements can be had for old belt drive floppys and computer tape 
drives?


I think the audio cassette deck enthusiasts do something like this and the 
arcade CRT people are building lists of consumer TVs with usable CRTs.



--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Paul Berger]

On 2016-05-26 1:53 PM, Jay West wrote:

Brent wrote...
--
The report said that the Department of Defence systems that
co-ordinated
intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker
support aircraft
"runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and
uses
eight-inch floppy disks".=
--
The series-1 makes such a lovable "Bleet" sound each time you press one of
the front panel membrane buttons :)

I can confirm first hand that HP1000 M/E/F systems are still in very active
use both on land and on (and under) sea by US forces.

Best,

J


That is if the Series/1 had an operator panel, it was possible to run 
them without one, and then if the CE had to run diagnostics he would 
have to haul a panel and a diskette drive out with him.  They where a 
very reliable machine, but CEs mostly hated working on them since they 
rarely saw them enough to get really familiar with them, especially if 
they had 10SR disks those drives where bullet proof, the 62PC not so 
much.  I think they also used 62TM disks in Series/1 they where also a 
very reliable disk.


Paul.

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Geoffrey Oltmans]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

>
> And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware
> and software, to put an end to that.  Windows10 can change that.
>
>
Yes, and while we're at it, put it in "the cloud" so that the we can have
an app for "red button." ;) What could possibly go wrong?

Re: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect?

[William Donzelli]

Have all your ducks in a row, have a plan B just in case.

--
Will

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:
> Sorry to clarify I am bringing this back in person
>
> On Thursday, May 26, 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:
>
>> My DS570 came from Canada.  The biggest issue is to have a shipper that is
>> well versed in dealing with international shipping and knows how to deal
>> with
>> customs.  Be clear on the customs/shipping documents about the country of
>> origin and the value.  You will need a bill of lading.  Be warned,
>> declaring a
>> value of $0 will raise eyebrows.  There are also “keywords” you need to
>> avoid.
>>
>> If I recall, I used UPS freight.
>>
>> TTFN - Guy
>>
>> > On May 26, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Ian Finder > > wrote:
>> >
>> > Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone
>> > has experience.
>> >
>> > Will there be any trouble bringing them across?
>> >
>> > They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are
>> > just going to my personal computer collection.
>> >
>> > Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US.
>> >
>> > Thanks-
>> >
>> > - Ian
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >   Ian Finder
>> >   (206) 395-MIPS
>> >   ian.fin...@gmail.com 
>>
>>
>
> --
>Ian Finder
>(206) 395-MIPS
>ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Paul Berger]

On 2016-05-26 2:32 PM, Diane Bruce wrote:

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 06:19:51PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:

On 26/05/2016 17:48, Fred Cisin wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote:

A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio
this morning too:
 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839


A friend of mine had a collection of PDP-8s years ago during the 70s.
Ontario Hydro asked him if he could sell them a few. I always wondered
what they were doing with them, today I think I found out.

http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/01/000/186.pdf


Yeah the Bruce plant used to run on PDP-8s, a friend of mine worked 
there on a work term in University, he told me they had a garage full of 
PDP-8s for spares.  I would imagine when Bruce was refurbished they 
where replaced with something more modern.  The Pickering plant was run 
by IBM 1800 as where some of the coal fired plants.


Paul.

Re: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect?

[Ian McLaughlin]

Last year I made a day trip from Kelowna BC to Seattle Washington to pick up a 
Northstar Horizon, and I paid cash ($100 if I recall correctly).

When I arrived back at the border, I got the third degree about the computer. 
The agent didn’t believe that I would make a 14 hour round trip to pick up 
something worth $100 and that it must be worth much more. After much arguing 
and showing him emails on my phone about negotiating the purchase he decided to 
let me go, but warned me that next time I did something like this I should at 
the very minimum bring paper copies of any emails negotiating such a purchase.  
Normally all my hassles at the border are at the US end, but this was on the 
Canadian side re-entering my own country. I was disappointed.

Ian

> On May 26, 2016, at 11:17 AM, Ian Finder  wrote:
> 
> Sorry to clarify I am bringing this back in person
> 
> On Thursday, May 26, 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:
> 
>> My DS570 came from Canada.  The biggest issue is to have a shipper that is
>> well versed in dealing with international shipping and knows how to deal
>> with
>> customs.  Be clear on the customs/shipping documents about the country of
>> origin and the value.  You will need a bill of lading.  Be warned,
>> declaring a
>> value of $0 will raise eyebrows.  There are also “keywords” you need to
>> avoid.
>> 
>> If I recall, I used UPS freight.
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy
>> 
>>> On May 26, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Ian Finder > > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone
>>> has experience.
>>> 
>>> Will there be any trouble bringing them across?
>>> 
>>> They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are
>>> just going to my personal computer collection.
>>> 
>>> Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US.
>>> 
>>> Thanks-
>>> 
>>> - Ian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>>  Ian Finder
>>>  (206) 395-MIPS
>>>  ian.fin...@gmail.com 
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
>   Ian Finder
>   (206) 395-MIPS
>   ian.fin...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> ---
> Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here:   
> http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=20900774236E11E697EBD09C93ED0201

Re: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect?

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

You will still need the information and documentation because you are 
“importing”
the item.  A bill of sale and all of the custom forms will be required.

TTFN - Guy

> On May 26, 2016, at 11:17 AM, Ian Finder  wrote:
> 
> Sorry to clarify I am bringing this back in person
> 
> On Thursday, May 26, 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:
> 
>> My DS570 came from Canada.  The biggest issue is to have a shipper that is
>> well versed in dealing with international shipping and knows how to deal
>> with
>> customs.  Be clear on the customs/shipping documents about the country of
>> origin and the value.  You will need a bill of lading.  Be warned,
>> declaring a
>> value of $0 will raise eyebrows.  There are also “keywords” you need to
>> avoid.
>> 
>> If I recall, I used UPS freight.
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy
>> 
>>> On May 26, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Ian Finder > > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone
>>> has experience.
>>> 
>>> Will there be any trouble bringing them across?
>>> 
>>> They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are
>>> just going to my personal computer collection.
>>> 
>>> Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US.
>>> 
>>> Thanks-
>>> 
>>> - Ian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>>  Ian Finder
>>>  (206) 395-MIPS
>>>  ian.fin...@gmail.com 
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
>   Ian Finder
>   (206) 395-MIPS
>   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect?

[Ian Finder]

Sorry to clarify I am bringing this back in person

On Thursday, May 26, 2016, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:

> My DS570 came from Canada.  The biggest issue is to have a shipper that is
> well versed in dealing with international shipping and knows how to deal
> with
> customs.  Be clear on the customs/shipping documents about the country of
> origin and the value.  You will need a bill of lading.  Be warned,
> declaring a
> value of $0 will raise eyebrows.  There are also “keywords” you need to
> avoid.
>
> If I recall, I used UPS freight.
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
> > On May 26, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Ian Finder  > wrote:
> >
> > Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone
> > has experience.
> >
> > Will there be any trouble bringing them across?
> >
> > They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are
> > just going to my personal computer collection.
> >
> > Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US.
> >
> > Thanks-
> >
> > - Ian
> >
> >
> > --
> >   Ian Finder
> >   (206) 395-MIPS
> >   ian.fin...@gmail.com 
>
>

-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

RE: vintage computers in active use

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jwsmobile
> Sent: 26 May 2016 18:47
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

> Subject: Re: vintage computers in active use
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/26/2016 10:22 AM, dwight wrote:
> > It is interesting that the military may not be able to use W10.
> > I doubt it can meet tempest requirements without major changes.
> > Dwight
> >
> There is a lot of phone home crap in windows.  A friend who otherwise had
not
> worried about such things is starting to formulate a firewall
> (reverse) to put in for customers to block outbound communications with
the
> mother ship.  I suspect they were there before, but they are there a lot
in W10.
> 
> He specifically is going to get with port number blocking outbound, and
some
> inbound crap, but still will hopefully preserve the windows updates.
There
> seems to be an effort to get this going he is working with.
> 

But it generally uses 443 and 80 so it can get through firewalls. It also
tends to use "normal" Microsoft server addresses. It is also often on port
443. There is wasting my time, and wasting my time.


> On the topic of the military, they were doing things to thermally record
the
> floppies as well so they could not be altered between the source and
> destinations.  They never came up with a newer technology they liked to
> replace that capability on either tapes or floppies.
> 
> They used 7 track tapes for Nike Ajax targeting data that could not be
erased
> due to how they were recorded.
> 
> I worked with a sales rep with an early optical media vendor and the
Pentagon
> brass went nuts over it, but the vendor's technology was proprietary, and
they
> didn't want to jump from one hard to deal with tech to another.
> 
> The rep was a retired petty officer, and he said he about crapped when he
went
> into the meeting with all generals and admirals and the like.
> Still had the averse reaction to brass from his old salt days.
> 
> thanks
> Jim

Re: Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect?

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

My DS570 came from Canada.  The biggest issue is to have a shipper that is
well versed in dealing with international shipping and knows how to deal with
customs.  Be clear on the customs/shipping documents about the country of
origin and the value.  You will need a bill of lading.  Be warned, declaring a
value of $0 will raise eyebrows.  There are also “keywords” you need to avoid.

If I recall, I used UPS freight.

TTFN - Guy

> On May 26, 2016, at 10:51 AM, Ian Finder  wrote:
> 
> Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone
> has experience.
> 
> Will there be any trouble bringing them across?
> 
> They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are
> just going to my personal computer collection.
> 
> Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US.
> 
> Thanks-
> 
> - Ian
> 
> 
> -- 
>   Ian Finder
>   (206) 395-MIPS
>   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-May-26, at 10:32 AM, Diane Bruce wrote:
> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 06:19:51PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>> 
>> On 26/05/2016 17:48, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote:
 A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio 
 this morning too:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839
> 
> A friend of mine had a collection of PDP-8s years ago during the 70s.
> Ontario Hydro asked him if he could sell them a few. I always wondered
> what they were doing with them, today I think I found out.
> 
> http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/01/000/186.pdf



All this reminds me of the systems I've missed out on:

A few years ago, a high school acquaintance I chanced to meet and who was 
working in operations control at a local oil refinery told me the large 
multi-rack PDP-11 system for process control had been decommissioned and dumped 
about a year earlier.
"Ya, that's too bad, you could have had it."

Around 10 years ago, an acquaintance from the radio museum who worked at the 
telco told me about a PDP-8 used for automated dial testing had been discarded 
a couple years earlier. Don't know what model PDP-8 it was but as he described 
it was used for rotary dial testing, so it was probably a pretty early model.
"Ya, that's too bad, you could have had it."

Around 10 year ago, I failed to organise a truck to pick up an 11/83 system 
decommissioned from the telco.
"You idiot."

I wish I knew what happened to the Foxboro system at the other local oil 
refinery when that refinery was decommissioned.

I should ask a fellow I know who works at the local cyclotron built in the 70s 
whether any of the original control system is still there, but I doubt it.

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Paul Koning]

I took a quick look at that GAO report.  It clearly is not all that accurate.  
In a discussion of "old" systems, it mentions a system with "reported age 52 
years" but it "runs on windows server 2008 and is programmed in Java".   Yeah, 
right.  I wonder if it's ignorance speaking, or an attempt to weasel more 
taxpayer money out of unsuspecting politicians.  A number of other examples are 
similar.  For example, a "56 year old" IRS system that actually runs on an IBM 
z series machine from 2010.

paul

Bringing a VAX 750 and Nova from Canada to US: What to expect?

[Ian Finder]

Self explanatory- asking other computer collectors here to see if anyone
has experience.

Will there be any trouble bringing them across?

They look weird and big, but they have no real commercial value and are
just going to my personal computer collection.

Anything I need? I think both were manufactured in the US.

Thanks-

- Ian


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?)

[Jon Elson]

On 05/26/2016 12:33 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:

On 2016-May-25, at 6:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 05/25/2016 05:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Jon Elson

 >> I interned at IBM Bermuda, and they had a 360/20 as their main service
 >> bureau machine; it had (IIRC) ... a 4301 printer.

 > I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer?

Ah, right you are! The old grey cells are, well, old! ;-)

Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced in 1959
with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking new System 3
they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM stopped producing
them?



I believe IBM recycled them from retired machines for an amazing length of 
time.  Certainly, a number of 1403s were in use on 370 and even later systems.  
I was recently surprised while digging at bitsavers to find out how ancient the 
2821 controller was - all SMS cards and some very ingenious magnetic 
transformer tricks to do the address selection of the core stack with as few 
transistors as possible.  (The 2821 was the controller for the card read/punch 
as well as the 1403 printer family.)


A 1403 was in use at UBC for undergrad batch services up till the end of that 
service in 1979/80.

I used to get a kick out of pushing the button to raise the cabinet shroud. The 
big shroud would rattle and shake as the motor-chain drive raised it to expose 
the print mechanism, all while it continued to print, and the noise level would 
go up by some tens of db.

At least I presume it was a 1403, it looked like just like this:
http://ibm-1401.info/1403Cable-PP-04-.jpg


Yes, that would be the 1403-N1, the top of the line.  1100 
LPM, and had the motorized cover and totally enclosed 
cabinet, for noise suppression.  The cover also raised 
automatically whenever the printer had a check, mostly for 
out of paper.  That could happen in barely 15 minutes or so 
when printing less-dense output.


Jon

Re: vintage computers in active use

[jwsmobile]

On 5/26/2016 10:22 AM, dwight wrote:

It is interesting that the military may not be able to use W10.
I doubt it can meet tempest requirements without major changes.
Dwight

There is a lot of phone home crap in windows.  A friend who otherwise 
had not worried about such things is starting to formulate a firewall 
(reverse) to put in for customers to block outbound communications with 
the mother ship.  I suspect they were there before, but they are there a 
lot in W10.


He specifically is going to get with port number blocking outbound, and 
some inbound crap, but still will hopefully preserve the windows 
updates.  There seems to be an effort to get this going he is working with.


On the topic of the military, they were doing things to thermally record 
the floppies as well so they could not be altered between the source and 
destinations.  They never came up with a newer technology they liked to 
replace that capability on either tapes or floppies.


They used 7 track tapes for Nike Ajax targeting data that could not be 
erased due to how they were recorded.


I worked with a sales rep with an early optical media vendor and the 
Pentagon brass went nuts over it, but the vendor's technology was 
proprietary, and they didn't want to jump from one hard to deal with 
tech to another.


The rep was a retired petty officer, and he said he about crapped when 
he went into the meeting with all generals and admirals and the like.  
Still had the averse reaction to brass from his old salt days.


thanks
Jim

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Fred Cisin]

"According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its
systems, which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer
language initially used in the 1950s and typically tied to the hardware
for which it was developed"."


On Thu, 26 May 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:

Assembly is still used on many lower-end MCUs.  It still offers a big
bang for the buck, particularly on minimal hardware.
"typically tied to hardware"?  Can anyone cite a case where it was not?


C Programming Language?  :-)


I had words with Clancy and Harvey.  While need may be diminshed, there is 
never a complete elimination of the need to pay attention to, and optimize 
near, the level of hardware.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?)

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-May-25, at 6:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> On 05/25/2016 05:31 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> > From: Jon Elson
>> 
>> >> I interned at IBM Bermuda, and they had a 360/20 as their main service
>> >> bureau machine; it had (IIRC) ... a 4301 printer.
>> 
>> > I'm guessing, maybe, that would be a 1403 printer?
>> 
>> Ah, right you are! The old grey cells are, well, old! ;-)
>> 
>> Those printers had an amazingly long life! They were first introduced in 1959
>> with the 1401 computer, and, like I said, the brand spanking new System 3
>> they got in ca. 1976 came with one! I wonder when IBM stopped producing
>> them?
>> 
>> 
> I believe IBM recycled them from retired machines for an amazing length of 
> time.  Certainly, a number of 1403s were in use on 370 and even later 
> systems.  I was recently surprised while digging at bitsavers to find out how 
> ancient the 2821 controller was - all SMS cards and some very ingenious 
> magnetic transformer tricks to do the address selection of the core stack 
> with as few transistors as possible.  (The 2821 was the controller for the 
> card read/punch as well as the 1403 printer family.)


A 1403 was in use at UBC for undergrad batch services up till the end of that 
service in 1979/80.

I used to get a kick out of pushing the button to raise the cabinet shroud. The 
big shroud would rattle and shake as the motor-chain drive raised it to expose 
the print mechanism, all while it continued to print, and the noise level would 
go up by some tens of db.

At least I presume it was a 1403, it looked like just like this:
http://ibm-1401.info/1403Cable-PP-04-.jpg

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Diane Bruce]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 06:19:51PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> 
> On 26/05/2016 17:48, Fred Cisin wrote:
> > On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> >> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio 
> >> this morning too:
> >> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839


A friend of mine had a collection of PDP-8s years ago during the 70s.
Ontario Hydro asked him if he could sell them a few. I always wondered
what they were doing with them, today I think I found out.

http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/01/000/186.pdf


-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Chuck Guzis]

On 05/26/2016 09:48 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> "According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its
> systems, which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer
> language initially used in the 1950s and typically tied to the hardware
> for which it was developed"."

Assembly is still used on many lower-end MCUs.  It still offers a big
bang for the buck, particularly on minimal hardware.

"typically tied to hardware"?  Can anyone cite a case where it was not?

Not to be confused with "machine language", which was also used--i.e.
direct coding of instructions without the aid of mnemonics or symbols.

Doesn't the Series/1 use magazine-fed floppies?  Not exactly the same as
handling the disks individually.

--Chuck

RE: vintage computers in active use

[Rik Bos]

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Namens Fred Cisin
> Verzonden: donderdag 26 mei 2016 18:48
> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Onderwerp: Re: vintage computers in active use
> 
> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> > A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this
morning
> too:
> > http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839
> > extract:
> > The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-
> ordinated
> > intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker
support
> aircraft
> > "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and
> uses
> > eight-inch floppy disks".
> 
> "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works,"
> Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency.
> 
> And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware and
> software, to put an end to that.  Windows10 can change that.
> 
> 
> "According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its
systems,
> which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer language
initially
> used in the 1950s and typically tied to the hardware for which it was
> developed"."
> 
> And, THAT is the reasoning for replacement?
> Not even an understanding of what assembly language IS.
> "Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will again" -
> Clancy/Harvey
> 
> 
> "Eight-inch floppy disks date back to the early days of computer systems"
> 
> The author is unaware of the many decades of computers, including
military,
> prior to floppy disks.  Mag tape?  EAM (punch-cards, etc.)?


But doesn't that be an implementation of the famous "don't ask don't tell
strategy" ?

-Rik

Re: vintage computers in active use

[dwight]

It is interesting that the military may not be able to use W10.
I doubt it can meet tempest requirements without major changes.
Dwight



From: cctalk  on behalf of Rod Smallwood 

Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 10:19:51 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: vintage computers in active use

On 26/05/2016 17:48, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio
>> this morning too:
>> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839
>> extract:
>> The report said that the Department of Defence systems that
>> co-ordinated
>> intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker
>> support aircraft
>> "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system -
>> and uses
>> eight-inch floppy disks".
>
> "This system remains in use because, in short, it still works,"
> Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency.
>
> And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware
> and software, to put an end to that.  Windows10 can change that.
>
>
> "According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its
> systems, which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer
> language initially used in the 1950s and typically tied to the
> hardware for which it was developed"."
>
> And, THAT is the reasoning for replacement?
> Not even an understanding of what assembly language IS.
> "Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will
> again" - Clancy/Harvey
>
>
> "Eight-inch floppy disks date back to the early days of computer systems"
>
> The author is unaware of the many decades of computers, including
> military, prior to floppy disks.  Mag tape?  EAM (punch-cards, etc.)?
>
>
Sounds like good security to me.  Try hacking that lot.

R

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Rod Smallwood]

On 26/05/2016 17:48, Fred Cisin wrote:

On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote:
A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio 
this morning too:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839
extract:
The report said that the Department of Defence systems that 
co-ordinated
intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker 
support aircraft
"runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - 
and uses

eight-inch floppy disks".


"This system remains in use because, in short, it still works,"
Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency.

And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware
and software, to put an end to that.  Windows10 can change that.


"According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its
systems, which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer
language initially used in the 1950s and typically tied to the 
hardware for which it was developed"."


And, THAT is the reasoning for replacement?
Not even an understanding of what assembly language IS.
"Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will
again" - Clancy/Harvey


"Eight-inch floppy disks date back to the early days of computer systems"

The author is unaware of the many decades of computers, including 
military, prior to floppy disks.  Mag tape?  EAM (punch-cards, etc.)?




Sounds like good security to me.  Try hacking that lot.

R

Re: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 05/26/2016 06:51 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Apart from that, it's not credible for another reason.  CDC Cyber
> operating systems always spooled printer output to disk (unlike
> OS/360 which did it in some variants but not others -- notably not
> OS/360 PCP which I used since our 360/44 wasn't big enough to do
> better).  So a call to DMP would run only long enough do perform the
> formatting of whatever memory was being dumped, writing the resulting
> text to the disk file named "OUTPUT" for the invoking process
> ("control point").

It *is* possible for a job to REQUEST access to an online printer under
both SCOPE and KRONOS.  But it requires operator intervention, IIRC.

Deadstart (postmortem) dumps, of course, didn't use any intermediate
programs--they dumped directly to the printer.  IIRC, you could also
dump to tape.

--Chuck

RE: vintage computers in active use

[Jay West]

Brent wrote...
--
The report said that the Department of Defence systems that
co-ordinated
intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker
support aircraft
"runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and
uses
eight-inch floppy disks".=
--
The series-1 makes such a lovable "Bleet" sound each time you press one of
the front panel membrane buttons :)

I can confirm first hand that HP1000 M/E/F systems are still in very active
use both on land and on (and under) sea by US forces.

Best,

J

Re: vintage computers in active use

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 26 May 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote:

A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this 
morning too:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839
extract:
The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated
intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support 
aircraft
"runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses
eight-inch floppy disks".


"This system remains in use because, in short, it still works,"
Pentagon spokeswoman Lt Col Valerie Henderson told the AFP news agency.

And, THAT is why it MUST be replaced immediately by "modern" hardware
and software, to put an end to that.  Windows10 can change that.


"According to the report, the US treasury also needed to upgrade its
systems, which it said was using "assembly language code - a computer
language initially used in the 1950s and typically tied to the hardware 
for which it was developed"."


And, THAT is the reasoning for replacement?
Not even an understanding of what assembly language IS.
"Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will
again" - Clancy/Harvey


"Eight-inch floppy disks date back to the early days of computer systems"

The author is unaware of the many decades of computers, including 
military, prior to floppy disks.  Mag tape?  EAM (punch-cards, etc.)?

Re: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?)

[Jon Elson]

On 05/26/2016 08:54 AM, Paul Koning wrote:



Speaking of ribbons, in college I occasionally used a type of ribbon I've never seen on 
line printers since: a film ribbon.  Think of the "letter quality" ribbons used 
on professional typewriters, or daisy wheel printers, a thin plastic film with some 
carbon-like coating on one side.  Now make one the width of a line printer ribbon.

Our 360/44 normally used a regular cloth ribbon, but a film ribbon could be 
mounted if desired.  I did so to print my honor's thesis, using the film ribbon 
and the upper/lower case print train (TN train?) to print the final text (from 
RUNOFF on our PDP-11 system, which had no line printer).

Yes, that's exactly the purpose they were for.  You mounted 
the text train and a film ribbon, and got a fairly nice 
looking printout. IBM's early manuals were all printed this 
way, the look was pretty iconic.  The printed output was 
then photographed to make offset printing plates.  (Later 
they used IBM composer word processing printers, and they 
looked nicer, with proportional spacing.)


Jon

Re: Front panel switches - what did they do?

[Jon Elson]

On 05/26/2016 05:02 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:


In addition to reading/writing memory locations, and basic machine control
(boot, start, stop, continue, single-step, etc), some machines had additional
functionality, but what it was (if any) varied widely from machine to machine.


Most IBM 360's had "ripple tests".  You could select local 
store (register set), main store or control store.
Then, when you pressed start, you could read every location 
of control store and optionally halt if a parity error 
occurred.  For local or main store, it would write 
alternately all ones and all zeros and read back and check 
parity.
This was a quick check that major components of the machine 
were in operating order.  (I don't recall if you needed the 
CE key to do these tests.)


Jon

vintage computers in active use

[Brent Hilpert]

A friend notice this in the news, I heard it mentioned on the radio this 
morning too:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36385839

extract:
The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated
intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support 
aircraft
"runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses
eight-inch floppy disks".

RE: equipment & memorabilia available

[Jay West]

A listmember has stepped forward to take over the Mont Vernon NH haul.

Best,

J

Re: Question about UNIBUS terminators, M9300

[william degnan]

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Noel Chiappa 
wrote:

> > From: William Degnan
>
> > Here is the layout starting from slot 9/11 of the expansion cabinet
>
> Just slot numbers by themselves aren't much use, because if there are any
> non-UNIBUS backplanes (e.g. custom backplanes for core memory, for an RH11
> -
> which has its own custom backplane, you can't use a regular SPC/MUD
> 'UNIBUS'
> backplane to hold it), we need to know what those are, and where.
>
> Note that many boards can only go in a specific slot in a custom backplane,
> and vice verse - some slots in such backplanes will only hold a specific
> kind
> of card.
>
> Taking the RH11-AB as an example: it comes with a 9-slot custom backplane.
> Hex
> RH11 boards M7294 and M7295 go in slots 3 and 2, respectively (and nowhere
> else, and nothing else can go in those slots). UNIBUS A in is in slot 1,
> connectors A/B; UNIBUS A out is in slot 9, connectors A/B. UNIBUS B in is
> in
> slot 8, connectors A/B; UNIBUS A out is in slot 7, connectors A/B.
>
> 
>


> It looks like slot 31 starts another backplane. Given the cards that are
> plugged in (LP11, DL11, etc), it's probably a 'UNIBUS' backplane (i.e. SPC
> or
> MUD slots).
>
> Noel
>

Thank you for taking a few to send this information.   I was just curious
about the role of the 9300, to explain the configuration I am working
with.  I am working to get up to speed on UNIBUS architecture.

For now, I am going to focus on getting any DL11-x serial card or two
running...and maybe a configure one to read diagnostics from the teletype
the other for VT220 @ 2400/9600.

AS I had mentioned earlier I had this system running PDPGUI but my
previously-working DL11-W pooped out.  I have the manual, need to diagnose
fix or replace.  I am also working on DL11-x (M7800-x) cards on hand.

Bill

Re: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?)

[Paul Koning]

> On May 25, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> On 05/25/2016 07:22 PM, Paul Berger wrote:
> 
>> Speaking of dumps I remember an engineer friend telling me that at
>> the university that he went to they had a CDC Cyber system and they 
>> discovered that you could initiate a dump from any workstation, and
>> the system would dump out to the printer and while it was dumping the
>> whole system came to a halt guess what the students where fond
>> of doing..  It would seem to me that something like that should
>> have been more restricted.
> 
> At least in SCOPE and KRONOS, DMP was the command to dump memory--but if
> initiated from a user's control point, it would dump only the user's FL,
> not the whole system.  So the story seems to be a bit apocryphal to me.
>  Most university systems charged not only by the CPU second, but also
> by the number of lines printed and the number of cards punched.

Apart from that, it's not credible for another reason.  CDC Cyber operating 
systems always spooled printer output to disk (unlike OS/360 which did it in 
some variants but not others -- notably not OS/360 PCP which I used since our 
360/44 wasn't big enough to do better).  So a call to DMP would run only long 
enough do perform the formatting of whatever memory was being dumped, writing 
the resulting text to the disk file named "OUTPUT" for the invoking process 
("control point").

paul

Re: Early 360 machines (Was: Front panel switches - what did they do?)

[Paul Koning]

> On May 25, 2016, at 9:16 PM, Paul Berger  wrote:
> 
>> ...
> Yeah I watch some of the large system guys disassemble and repair trains and 
> of course when you put them back together you had to make sure the slugs 
> where all in the right order.   We had customers that would buy 3rd party 
> ribbons that where practically dripping with ink that would gum up everything 
> in the machine.

Speaking of ribbons, in college I occasionally used a type of ribbon I've never 
seen on line printers since: a film ribbon.  Think of the "letter quality" 
ribbons used on professional typewriters, or daisy wheel printers, a thin 
plastic film with some carbon-like coating on one side.  Now make one the width 
of a line printer ribbon.

Our 360/44 normally used a regular cloth ribbon, but a film ribbon could be 
mounted if desired.  I did so to print my honor's thesis, using the film ribbon 
and the upper/lower case print train (TN train?) to print the final text (from 
RUNOFF on our PDP-11 system, which had no line printer).

paul

Re: Question about UNIBUS terminators, M9300

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: William Degnan

> Here is the layout starting from slot 9/11 of the expansion cabinet

Just slot numbers by themselves aren't much use, because if there are any
non-UNIBUS backplanes (e.g. custom backplanes for core memory, for an RH11 -
which has its own custom backplane, you can't use a regular SPC/MUD 'UNIBUS'
backplane to hold it), we need to know what those are, and where.

Note that many boards can only go in a specific slot in a custom backplane,
and vice verse - some slots in such backplanes will only hold a specific kind
of card.

Taking the RH11-AB as an example: it comes with a 9-slot custom backplane. Hex
RH11 boards M7294 and M7295 go in slots 3 and 2, respectively (and nowhere
else, and nothing else can go in those slots). UNIBUS A in is in slot 1,
connectors A/B; UNIBUS A out is in slot 9, connectors A/B. UNIBUS B in is in
slot 8, connectors A/B; UNIBUS A out is in slot 7, connectors A/B.

The RH11 backplane has some slots which are not needed/used by the RH11; those
are wired as SPC slots; slots 7, 8 and 9, connectors C-F (the A-B connectors
in these slots are UNIBUS, per above), are SPC slots. That means that they
need _at least_ a G727 single-width card (the little square grant continuity
cards which jumper BG4-7) in them if there is no other device plugged in. If
the NPG wire-wrap jumper on the backplane for that slot has been removed,
you'd have to use a G7273 dual-width jumper card, to jumper NPG also.


So, looking at your list; first, a comment about naming:

  9/11: M9202 (1-2)
  11: M7297 (3-4)
  11: 7296 (5-6)

This looks like slot 1 of an RH11 backplane. Standard practise it to use
letters for the vertical, and numbers for the horizontal, for positive
identification. So standard nomenclature would be to say that the M9202 is in
connectors A/B, the M7297 in C/D, and the M7296 in E/F.

(Individual pins are named xYZn, where 'x' is the slot, 1-N [where N is
typically 4 or 9]; 'Y' is the connector, A-F; 'Y' is the pin, A-V using the
'DEC alphabet'; and 'n' is the side, 1-2. The NPG jumper is CA1-CB1 in all
SPC/MUD slots, i.e. 1CA1-1CB1 in slot 1.)

The stuff starting in slot '21' looks like a DB11 UNIBUS repeater, but I have
no idea how large a backplane that is, and what the various slots/connectors
in it are used for. It's almost certainly custom wired.

It looks like slot 31 starts another backplane. Given the cards that are
plugged in (LP11, DL11, etc), it's probably a 'UNIBUS' backplane (i.e. SPC or
MUD slots).

Noel

Re: Front panel switches - what did they do?

[Cory Heisterkamp]

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Sean Caron  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 24 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote:
>
>
>> It probably still impressed the suits when they walked the data center.
>> I've done data center tours with row after row of HP or Dell x86 servers
>> and it's not much to look at.
>>
>> -Swift
>>
>>
> It's true, modern computers are pretty dull to look at, but you can still
> find some stunning views in the data center from time to time.
>
> A fair bit of what I manage is storage and I have several rows laid out
> such that there is basically nothing but racks of JBOD disk down all one
> side, or even both sides of an entire row. When my end users make the
> equipment sing, it's fun to switch off the lights on the floor and watch it
> dance.
>
> All the JBODs could be used as a crude dot matrix to spell out a phrase. I
> need to write a little script for that ... ;)
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>
>
Swift, see if you can track down a digital copy of "Programming Univac
Systems - Instruction Manual 1". I think the copyright was '53. In the
hardcopy version there's a pullout of the complete control panel layout
with a description of every switch and indicator. The manual also goes into
enough detail to walk you through startup, the instruction set, and how to
operate the machine. Pretty cool stuff.

While the Univac II was essentially the same machine (but with core instead
of mercury), the control console became a little more refined and some
photos I've seen show a nixie tube display in place of certain lamps. I
never have found a reference to those refinements. -C

Re: Question about UNIBUS terminators, M9300

[william degnan]

>
> > There are jumpers on this card. W1, W2, W. I did not find any
> specific
> > examples online of scenarios for the jumpers
> > ...
> > I think I get why one would remove the W2 jumper but if W1 is removed
> > (open) instead can someone give me an example scenario for when you'd
> > want to use this card "for beginning of non processor bus
> termination".
> > Can someone give me an example of when you'd do this?
>
> The device the M9300 was invented for was probably the RH11-AB, which is
> where one most often finds them. The RH11 is an UNIBUS device which is a
> MASSBUS controller; the RH11-AB has connectors for _two_ UNIBI (so one
> RH11-AB can be 'in' two PDP-11's at the same time; i.e. all the devices
> connected to that controller can be accessed from either machine).
>
> If it's only connected to a single CPU, though, what does one do with the
> second UNIBUS? That's where the M9300 comes in. It simulated the
> NPG-granting
> section of a CPU, and when jumpered to do that, it goes at the _start_ of a
> UNIBUS - e.g. the second UNIBUS in the RH11-AB. (Leave all the jumpers in,
> and it functions like an M930, and can go at either end).
>
> You can find a description of its use in the RH11-AB, as well as a
> description of how the M9300 works, in the "RH11-AB Option Description"
> document (available online), starting on page 4-32.
>
> I can't conceive of any use for one in most PDP-11's, though (outside an
> RH11-AB, of course).
>
> Noel
>

OK.  Yes, the system I have was set up for RH-11.  Here is the layout
starting from slot 9/11 of the expansion cabinet of the 11/40 I am working
on

9/11: M9202 (1-2)
11: M7297 (3-4)
11: 7296 (5-6)
12: M7295
13: M7294
14: M5904 (3-4)
15: M5904 (3-4)
16: M5904 (3-4)
17: GC (4)
18: GC (4)
18: M9300 (1-2)
19/21: M9202 (1-2)
19: GC (4)
21: M7248 (3) M7212 (4) M7212(5)M7212 (6)
22: M784 (5) M783 (6)
23: M7213 (3-4) M785 (5) M785 (6)
24: EXPANSION CABLE (1-2)
24: "small card" (4), M785 (5) M785(6)
26: M9700 (3), M105 (4), M7226 (5-6)
27: M7821 (4)
28: M117 (4)
29: M002 (4)
31: CABLE FROM 24
31: M7258 (3-6)
32: M8094
33: M8098
34: M7800 YA (3-6)
31: -
32: -
33: -

-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg 
Youtube: @billdeg 
Unauthorized Bio 

equipment & memorabilia available

[Jay West]

This one is a little sketchy; location is Mont Vernon, NH. Situation is a
lady's husband passed away and shes going through all his DEC stuff. She
would like to sell it, but has no idea what it is all worth. I do not have a
list that is really useful, so someone would need to contact her, go onsite,
and see what all is there and make an offer.

 

Below are just tidbits from several emails we exchanged. If you're
interested and local to that area and willing to take on a "project
recovery", drop me a line off-list. Please do not respond if you just want
to cherry pick one or two items unless you're fully prepared to at least
help her find a home for the parts you don't want.

 

Best,

J

I have a pdp 11 in the basement and lots of old mouldy
documentation..and who knows what else?  I'm trying to clean it all out.

also have an LA36, and who knows what else. My husband died in January and
I've a whole house to readjust to. 

I can get you the model, etc. soon. I live in Mont Vernon, NH.

Thanks for answerig...nice to know someone cares about the old stuff.

I scoped out the basement for the pdp-11 and here's what I've come up with
so far:

 

26   tape cylinders

12   RL02

1 Decscope

1 rx01

1 decdatasystem box

1 unknown grey metal box

1 Decwriter II

5 RT-11 oranger binders

several  LS11 System Service Manuals

other binders, etc.

 

I would like to sell this, but have no idea as to value, and would also like
to find someone who wants them...so what do you think someone would pay for
this?

Also found a copy of a RSTS auto license plate with a note to ( -
husbands name) from Simon Szeto "for someone who also loves RSTS"
ahhh...the good old days. Were you a part of them?

I've found more documentation, old badges, bumper stickers, etc.

Re: Front panel switches - what did they do?

[Lionel Johnson]

On 25/05/2016 5:06 AM, Paul Anderson wrote:

I used to have a notebook of toggle in programs for the PDP8s and PDP11s,
but it seems to be lost forever.

Not being a software person it takes me hours to write and debug the
simplest routines. Is there a site with a list of toggle in maintenance
programs?


I used to work on DEC systems of all types, loved the PDP-11, cause you 
could get right into it, not like VAX, which was huge and almost 
incomprehensible. I wrote button-in test programs as needed, below is a 
useful address checker, mostly used on instals, found bad switches 
giving wrong addresses. Used a similar one to trap vector addresses, 
find the wrong ones.




 I/O PAGE ADDRESS LISTER PROGRAM
---

   1000 012706 001000  MOV 
#1000, SP
   1004 012737 001054 04   MOV 
#TRAP,@#4

   1012 012700 002000  MOV #2000,R0
   1016 010001 MOV R0,R1
   1020 005020  LOOP:  CLR @(R0)+
   1022 020027 006000  CMP R0,#6000
   1026 001374 BNE LOOP
   1030 012700 16  MOV 
#16,R0

   1034 005710  LOOP1: TST @(R0)
   1036 010021 MOV 
R0,@(R1)+

   1040 062700 02   LOOP2: ADD #2,R0
   1044 020027 16  CMP 
R0,#16

   1050 001371 BNE LOOP1
   1052 00 HALT
   1054 022626  TRAP:  CMP 
@(R6)+,@(R6)+

   1056 000770 BR LOOP2


   THIS PROGRAM USES TRAP TO 4 ON UNIBUS TIMEOUT TO 
FIND ALL VALID

   UNIBUS ADDRESSES ON THE SYSTEM UNDER TEST.
   THE LIST OF ADDRESSES WILL BE STORED IN A TABLE 
COMMENCING AT

   LOCN 2000.
   THERE ARE SOME LARGE BLOCKS OF ADDRESSES WHICH 
SHOULD NOT BE

   PRINTED OUT. eg. 165000-165776 173000-173776.
   TO IDENTIFY THE ADDRESSES LISTED, SEE THE BACK 
PAGES OF THE

   PERIPHERAL HANDBOOK.

   SAMPLE RESULT:-

   SOUTHDOWN PRESS 11/24OAKLEIGH 11/70

   160200-160376   160120-160126 DZ11
   160770-160776  AD01? 165000-165776 BOOT DIAGS
   164200-164376   170200-170376 U/BUS MAP
   165000-165776  BOOT DIAGS 172202-172376 SUPER 
PAR/PDR0-7
   170200-170376  U/BUS MAP 172440-172476 
RH70/TM03/TE16

   172100 MS11-P CSR 172516MMR3
   172300-172316  KERNEL PDR 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES
   172340-172356  KERNEL PAR 176700-176752 RH70/RP06
   172516 MMR3 177546LINE CLOCK
   173000-173776  BOOT DEVICES 177560-177566 CONSOLE
   176500-176506  DL11 177570SWR
   176700-176746  EMULEX SC21 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2
   177546 KW11-L177600-177616 USER DATA 
PDR0-7

   177560-177566  CONSOLE 177620-177636 USER INS PDR0-7
   177572-177576  MMR0,1,2 177640-177656 USER INS 
PAR0-7
   177600-177616  USER PDR 177660-177676 USER DATA 
PAR0-7

   177640-177656  USER PAR 177740-177752 MEMORY REGS
   177734-177736  LMA LO/HI WORD 177760-16 CPU REGS
   177766 CPU ERR REG



  11/23 SYSTEM EXAMPLE:-
  -



 172300-172316 MEM MAN KERNEL PDR
 172340-172356 MEM MAN KERNEL PAR
 172516-   MMR3
 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES
 176500-176526 DLV11-J (3 PORTS)
 177170-177172 RXV21
 177546KWV11-L
 177560-177566 DLV11-J (CONSOLE)
 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2
 177600-177616 MEM MAN USER PDR
 177640-177656 MEM MAN USER PAR

Lionel.








*

Re: Front panel switches - what did they do?

[Lionel Johnson]

On 25/05/2016 5:06 AM, Paul Anderson wrote:

I used to have a notebook of toggle in programs for the PDP8s and PDP11s,
but it seems to be lost forever.

Not being a software person it takes me hours to write and debug the
simplest routines. Is there a site with a list of toggle in maintenance
programs?



I used to work on DEC systems of all types, loved the PDP-11, cause you 
could get right into it, not like VAX, which was huge and almost 
incomprehensible. I wrote button-in test programs as needed, below is a 
useful address checker, mostly used on instals, found bad switches 
giving wrong addresses. Used a similar one to trap vector addresses, 
find the wrong ones.




 I/O PAGE ADDRESS LISTER PROGRAM
---

   1000 012706 001000  MOV 
#1000, SP
   1004 012737 001054 04   MOV 
#TRAP,@#4

   1012 012700 002000  MOV #2000,R0
   1016 010001 MOV R0,R1
   1020 005020  LOOP:  CLR @(R0)+
   1022 020027 006000  CMP R0,#6000
   1026 001374 BNE LOOP
   1030 012700 16  MOV 
#16,R0

   1034 005710  LOOP1: TST @(R0)
   1036 010021 MOV 
R0,@(R1)+

   1040 062700 02   LOOP2: ADD #2,R0
   1044 020027 16  CMP 
R0,#16

   1050 001371 BNE LOOP1
   1052 00 HALT
   1054 022626  TRAP:  CMP 
@(R6)+,@(R6)+

   1056 000770 BR LOOP2


   THIS PROGRAM USES TRAP TO 4 ON UNIBUS TIMEOUT TO 
FIND ALL VALID

   UNIBUS ADDRESSES ON THE SYSTEM UNDER TEST.
   THE LIST OF ADDRESSES WILL BE STORED IN A TABLE 
COMMENCING AT

   LOCN 2000.
   THERE ARE SOME LARGE BLOCKS OF ADDRESSES WHICH 
SHOULD NOT BE

   PRINTED OUT. eg. 165000-165776 173000-173776.
   TO IDENTIFY THE ADDRESSES LISTED, SEE THE BACK 
PAGES OF THE

   PERIPHERAL HANDBOOK.

   SAMPLE RESULT:-

   SOUTHDOWN PRESS 11/24OAKLEIGH 11/70

   160200-160376   160120-160126 DZ11
   160770-160776  AD01? 165000-165776 BOOT DIAGS
   164200-164376   170200-170376 U/BUS MAP
   165000-165776  BOOT DIAGS 172202-172376 SUPER 
PAR/PDR0-7
   170200-170376  U/BUS MAP 172440-172476 
RH70/TM03/TE16

   172100 MS11-P CSR 172516MMR3
   172300-172316  KERNEL PDR 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES
   172340-172356  KERNEL PAR 176700-176752 RH70/RP06
   172516 MMR3 177546LINE CLOCK
   173000-173776  BOOT DEVICES 177560-177566 CONSOLE
   176500-176506  DL11 177570SWR
   176700-176746  EMULEX SC21 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2
   177546 KW11-L177600-177616 USER DATA 
PDR0-7

   177560-177566  CONSOLE 177620-177636 USER INS PDR0-7
   177572-177576  MMR0,1,2 177640-177656 USER INS 
PAR0-7
   177600-177616  USER PDR 177660-177676 USER DATA 
PAR0-7

   177640-177656  USER PAR 177740-177752 MEMORY REGS
   177734-177736  LMA LO/HI WORD 177760-16 CPU REGS
   177766 CPU ERR REG



  11/23 SYSTEM EXAMPLE:-
  -



 172300-172316 MEM MAN KERNEL PDR
 172340-172356 MEM MAN KERNEL PAR
 172516-   MMR3
 173000-173776 BOOT DEVICES
 176500-176526 DLV11-J (3 PORTS)
 177170-177172 RXV21
 177546KWV11-L
 177560-177566 DLV11-J (CONSOLE)
 177572-177576 MMR0,1,2
 177600-177616 MEM MAN USER PDR
 177640-177656 MEM MAN USER PAR


Lionel.







*

Re: Question about UNIBUS terminators, M9300

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Bill Degnan

> I have an M9300 bus terminator which I read is the same as a M930 with
> the NPR logic (so you don't also need an NPR terminator in slot 3/4).

Err, the M9300 would go in the same place as a M930, i.e. the UNIBUS in/out
dual connector group, usually at the top (A/B connectors) of a slot in a
backplane, in either the first or last slot _of the entire UNIBUS_.

> I am thinking I can replace the M930 and G7273 in the last slot of my
> backplane with a W2-open M9300.

As a UNIBUS in/out dual-width device, the M9300 does not have separate 'grant
in' and 'grant out' pins - just _one_ pin for the grant; the pin will
function as 'in' _or_ 'out', depending on whether the card in question (of
whatever type) is placed in the first or last slot of the UNIBUS.

The dual-width G7273 goes in the middle connectors (C/D) of an SPC/MUD slot,
to jumper both bus grants (BG4-BG7) and also NPG, all of which have both an
'in' and an 'out' pin in SPC/MUD slots (look at the G7273, you'll see 5 pairs
of pins jumpered together - 1 set on one side, NPG; 4 sets on the other,
BR4-BR7). So an M9300 cannot replace a G7273: it's intended for use in an
entirely different kind of connector group.

You might want to read the UNIBUS description in one of the earlier versions
of the "PDP-11 Peripherals Handbook", which explains how the grants work:
basically, they are daisy-chained through every device, so if a UNIBUS
SPC/MUD backplane (which can hold a UNIBUS device in every slot) has a slot
which does not contain a device, you have to put something with grant jumpers
in instead.

Whether the jumper need to be BG4-BG7 _only_ (the little small grant jumper
cards), or a G7273 (which _also_ jumpers NPG) depends on whether _that
particular slot_ has had its NPG jumper (wirewrap on the backplane) pulled,
or not - most backplanes come with jumpers on NPG on all slots, and you have
to remove the jumper if a device uses DMA. (In the early days, most did not,
which is why that was the default.)


> There are jumpers on this card. W1, W2, W. I did not find any specific
> examples online of scenarios for the jumpers
> ...
> I think I get why one would remove the W2 jumper but if W1 is removed
> (open) instead can someone give me an example scenario for when you'd
> want to use this card "for beginning of non processor bus termination".
> Can someone give me an example of when you'd do this?

The device the M9300 was invented for was probably the RH11-AB, which is
where one most often finds them. The RH11 is an UNIBUS device which is a
MASSBUS controller; the RH11-AB has connectors for _two_ UNIBI (so one
RH11-AB can be 'in' two PDP-11's at the same time; i.e. all the devices
connected to that controller can be accessed from either machine).

If it's only connected to a single CPU, though, what does one do with the
second UNIBUS? That's where the M9300 comes in. It simulated the NPG-granting
section of a CPU, and when jumpered to do that, it goes at the _start_ of a
UNIBUS - e.g. the second UNIBUS in the RH11-AB. (Leave all the jumpers in,
and it functions like an M930, and can go at either end).

You can find a description of its use in the RH11-AB, as well as a
description of how the M9300 works, in the "RH11-AB Option Description"
document (available online), starting on page 4-32.

I can't conceive of any use for one in most PDP-11's, though (outside an
RH11-AB, of course).

Noel

Re: BBC Tube... Running UNIX?

[Adam Sampson]

Jules Richardson  writes:

> For Unix "on a BBC" I think the only option was System III from Torch
> running on a m68k "Atlas" co-processor.

Do any of the early PC Unixes (Venix, PC/IX, etc. -- or clones like
Coherent or Minix) work on the Master 512's 80186 coprocessor?

-- 
Adam Sampson  

Re: Front panel switches - what did they do?

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Swift Griggs

> I'm curious about all these older machines with front panel buttons and
> switches. What all did they do? 

In addition to reading/writing memory locations, and basic machine control
(boot, start, stop, continue, single-step, etc), some machines had additional
functionality, but what it was (if any) varied widely from machine to machine.

E.g. the KA10, the first model of the PDP-10, had a front panel which also
allowed you to (among other things):

  - execute the contents of the data switches as an instruction
  - either stop the CPU, or execute an interrupt (switch selected),
when the address in the address switches was used for (switch
selected):
-- instruction fetch
-- data fetch
-- data write
  - repeat the previous key-press indefinitely (at a selectable speed)

The latter one could be used for all sorts of things. I once watched someone
halt the machine, put it in single-step mode, hit 'continue', and then
'repeat': by turning the 'repeat speed' knob up and down it was possible to
cause the CPU to run at varying speeds, down to 1 instruction/second! I
imagine that key could have also been used to clear memory by putting 0 in
the address and data switches, hitting 'deposit' and then 'deposit next', and
then 'repeat' (with the repetition rate turned to the max).

You'd have to read the processor manual for each machine to know exactly what
it could do from the front panel. E.g. some of the PDP-11's (/04, /34, /45 and
/70, IIRC) had a mode where you could single-step the microcode. I recall
using this on our /45 to debug it when the RETURN instruction broke... :-)

Noel

Re: BBC Tube... Running UNIX?

[Aaron Jackson]

So the Wikipedia article isn't lying, there are some passing references
to UNIX on the BBC. I have a BBC but not a Tube... I am wondering what I
can find for BeebEm.

Thanks for the info. Very interesting.

Aaron 



> On 05/25/2016 08:36 AM, Aaron Jackson wrote:
>> I just revisited the Wikipedia page for the BBC Micro Tube [1].
>> Apparently with a 32bit NS320 processor it was possible to run some
>> variant of UNIX? Does anyone know anything about this? I'd be very
>> interested in experimenting with it, if it is true.
>
> All evidence that I've seen suggests that it didn't exist, at least in the 
> wild, even though some documentation does make a passing reference to it 
> (it's quoted in the BBC user manual, I believe, and I've seen it in some 
> Acorn Business Computer marketing material).
>
> Acorn - with involvement from Logica - certainly attempted a port of Xenix 
> to the hardware, but it's not clear how far they ever got. I've seen a few 
> corporate emails which suggest that they were encountering severe 
> performance problems, both with the ns32k CPU itself and with transfer of 
> data across the Tube link.
>
> For Unix "on a BBC" I think the only option was System III from Torch 
> running on a m68k "Atlas" co-processor.
>
> cheers
>
> Jules