RE: sun 88780 on ebay
Al, I'm afraid I don’t... They were made in Greely Colorado but that plant has long since closed and I don’t have any contacts from there. -Original Message- From: cctech On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctech Sent: Wednesday, 30 January 2019 3:55 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: sun 88780 on ebay On 1/28/19 8:08 PM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: > I just restored a 7980XC (HP commercial version of the 88780) and it all > worked after I reinitialised the gains in each channel. David, do you know of anyone that has the schematics for these drives? MANY years ago, someone in Seattle had them, but I never was able to get the guy who said he got a copy tell me who that was.
Re: OT Parts houses & scrappers
On 1/29/19 12:45 PM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: Many times I find free to be far to expensive for most people including myself (think postage/shipping/prep time.) Aside from stuff like museum donations, I have found giving things away for free is usually a pain. In my experience, most people who want the stuff that I am giving away aren't that committed to it and are slow to come pick it up or give a shipping address or ... I usually put a token price on items just to avoid the problem. But I will be making use of the "free" table of VCF-PNW. alan
Re: early PDP-11/45 info sought
> The first batch of scanning is done... 600dpi, CCITT Group 4 except for > the cover pages which are LZW. > > You will find them in my Google Drive at > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU > > In subfolder pdf/dec/pdp11/1145 Thanks, Jay! I note with some amusement pencil annotations on various pages, relating to the very same bits of parity circuitry that I am investigating! It looks like somebody else might have been having a go down the same path... :-) --FritzM.
Re: early PDP-11/45 info sought
> On Jan 28, 2019, at 8:26 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: > > E.g. my M8100 prints are dated 2/72, and none contain any entries in the > 'Revisions' block (lower left). However, they are marked as Rev. D, which is > newer than the KB11-A prints at Bitsaver, which are marked as Rev. C. So I > have no idea what changed to cause the rev update! (The first drawing, the > board layout, does show a listing for 'D', so maybe it was just a layout > change?) From inspecting the drawings, that change looks to be related to the addition of the start vector extension that you can see at the top right of drawing DAPE. You can also see R18 added to the BOM and layout. Now, where did they put W7, tho? It's like "where's Waldo?" :-) Incidentally, DAPE is also where you can see changes related to addition of trap 114, in the K1MX TV input decode on the lower left. Older boards w/o the associated ECOs applied (like mine) are easily visually identified because they will lack pullup R17 in the upper right "patch" area of the board. --FritzM.
gcc-1.34 source?, was Re: old gcc #pragma handling
On 01/29/2019 14:53, Christian Groessler via cctalk wrote: But I cannot find gcc 1.34. ftp.gnu.org has gcc-1.30.atari (where the sequence doesn't exist), and gcc-1.35 (where it's "#if 0"ed). Does anyone know where to find the source code of gcc 1.34? I'm not positive that this is "pure" gcc 1.34, and not altered for this "Cross compiling environment to DJGPP v1" project on SourceForge, but it's the only source I could find: https://sourceforge.net/projects/crossdjgppv1/files/GNU%20Source/gcc-1.34.tar.bz2/download Contents of the README in the tarball: This directory contains the version 1.34 test release of the GNU C compiler. All bugs reported for previous test releases have been fixed. Some bugs surely remain. See the file gcc.texinfo for installation and porting information. The file INSTALL contains a copy of the installation information. The GNU C compiler is free software. See the file COPYING for copying permission. Good luck, --S.
Re: early PDP-11/45 info sought
On 1/27/2019 9:07 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > > Let me know what you want me to scan - should be able to get to it later > this week. > > JRJ > > > On 1/27/2019 6:40 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >> Those reading through the recent "PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem" thread here >> will know that I've gotten to some corners of my 11/45 CPU now that don't >> match up with the commonly available engineering drawings. >> >> My /45 is an early serial number (#152). So far I've verified hardware >> differences on at least my M8100 and M8105 cards and spares, relating to >> parity error abort handling. I would really like to track down any of the >> following resources: >> >> - PDP 11/45 system engineering drawings *earlier* than those currently >> available on bitsavers (Jun '74) >> >> - Any PDP 11/45 backplane wire list (what looks to be a wire list in the >> currently available engineering drawings is actually only a breakdown of the >> power harness.) >> >> - PDP 11/45 ECO information, particularly the following: >> The first batch of scanning is done. 600dpi, CCITT Group 4 except for the cover pages which are LZW. You will find them in my Google Drive at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU In subfolder pdf/dec/pdp11/1145 Note that the FP11-B material is already on bitsavers (this is generally where I put my contributions for them to snag...) Memories (and perhaps FP11-C) tomorrow, I hope, then on to the manuals that Noel suggested.
Re: old gcc #pragma handling
> Hi, > > I knew that since ~20 yrs, but I didn't know the affected gcc > version(s). According to http://toni.technetium.be/hacker/pragma.htm > this "special" pragma handling should be in gcc 1.34. > > But I cannot find gcc 1.34. ftp.gnu.org has gcc-1.30.atari (where the > sequence doesn't exist), and gcc-1.35 (where it's "#if 0"ed). > > Does anyone know where to find the source code of gcc 1.34? > As far as I can see, the "special" pragma handling is in gcc 0.90 (in cccp.c) and is enclosed by #if 0 / #endif by gcc 1.21 or earlier. (This is probably the closest I've ever been to gcc v.anything so I may be barking up the wrong tree entirely. Maybe there was one of those version number reorganisations?) Regards, Peter Coghlan.
old gcc #pragma handling
Hi, I knew that since ~20 yrs, but I didn't know the affected gcc version(s). According to http://toni.technetium.be/hacker/pragma.htm this "special" pragma handling should be in gcc 1.34. But I cannot find gcc 1.34. ftp.gnu.org has gcc-1.30.atari (where the sequence doesn't exist), and gcc-1.35 (where it's "#if 0"ed). Does anyone know where to find the source code of gcc 1.34? regards, chris
Re: Oh Darn (Re: early PDP-11/45 info sought)
> On Jan 29, 2019, at 1:46 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > Dang it - the dates fooled me. (blush) Sorry to get your hopes up, > Fritz. Oh, darn! Well, thanks anyway for taking a look. And so the search continues... The later revisions and other docs are still quite a nice find, and it would certainly be nice for them to find their way to bitsavers. --FritzM.
Oh Darn (Re: early PDP-11/45 info sought)
Dang it - the dates fooled me. (blush) Sorry to get your hopes up, Fritz. Here is some more accurate information: The first set: The first page (the directory) is actually 6/76 in the revisions block. It is *later* than the one on bitsavers. Interesting, though: it actually shows TWO directories. One column is labeled 11/45-1 and the second 11/45-2. It looks like the 2nd column is for a later CPU, KB11-D. This set appears to be mostly index pages and chassis/power supply. The one on Bitsavers includes the KB11-A drawings, which I have as a separate document (complete with cover). The KT11-C is actually 12/75 It is *later* than the one on bitsavers. The KB11-A is actually 4/76 The FP11-B is 7/72 rather than 3/72 THIS IN FACT IS THE ONE ALREADY ON BITSAVERS: There is a name and "stamp" on the first page that is quite recognizable, and the dates on my scan match. So, I won't rescan it. ;) The FP11-C is 12/75 as noted [And is not currently on bitsavers] I will still scan them in except for the one (and the other manuals Noel identified). Apologies for the confusion. I was using the date in the date block on the bottom right of the first page - I didn't notice the revisions block on the bottom left. 8( JRJ On 1/27/2019 9:07 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > I think I can help some. I have a PDP-11/45 From U. Wisc. ECE that > claims to be S/N 1525 . > > * I do NOT have an actual wire list, it seems, but I will hunt a bit > more tomorrow or Tuesday. > > * I DO have earlier PDP-11/45 CPU drawings, but no ECO info > > > Here is what I have for drawings: > > B-DD-11/45-0-AJ Basic Assy (PDP11/45) 5/72 [Not CPU Cards] >D-CS-5409684-0-1-H 11/45 Console Board 3/72 >B-DD-KB11-A-0-AA 16 Bit Processor May-72 [NOT CPU HERE] > B-DD-DL11-0-K > B-DD-KW11-0-* > B-DD-BM873-0-F > B-DD-KT11-C-B > D-IC-11/45-0-1-H Power System Configuration > K-WL-7009540-0-2 Wire List (small - only 6 pages) > B-DD-861-0-L > B-DD-H7420-0-E > B-DD-H744-0-R > B-DD-H745-0-R > B-DD-H746-0-E > E-CS-H754-0-1-T >A-AL-11/45-0-3-B Accessory List >D-AR-11/45-0-4-C (Rack Configurations) >C-PL-11/45-0-4-D Arrangement Parts List >B-DD-M9301-0-D > > B-DD-KT11-C-B > [NOTE: Use KT11-C Only with KB11-A & FP11-B, > Use KT11-CD Only with KB11-D & FP11-C] >[M8107, M8108] > > > KB11-A Engineering Drawings [PDP-11/45 CPU] >KB11-A-0-AA Dated May 72 >[M8100, M8101, M8102, M8103, ROM Control Listings for M8103, > M8104, M8105, M8106, M8109, M8116, M930, M9202] >NO wire list > > (Curiously, I also have KB11-C, 11/70 drawings.) > > B-DD-MF11-U-B 16K Core [M8293, G235, G114, H217, M7259 (Parity Control)] > B-DD-MS11-B-B MOS Memory [M8110, G401] > B-DD-MS11-C-B Bipolar Memory [M8110, M8111] > B-DD-MS11-C-C Bipolar Memory (ECO MS11C-3) Mentions M8120 > > B-DD-FB11-0-A FP11-B Floating Point Processor March 72 >[M8114, M8115, M8112, M8812 ROM Control Listings, M8813] > > B-TC-FP11-C-6 FP11-C (Print Set MP00038) December 75 >[M8126, M8127, M8128, M8129] > > DEC-11-HFPAA-C-D FP11 Floating Point Processor Maintenance Manual > DEC-11-FP11C-MM-001 FP11-C Floating Point Processor Maintenance Manual > EK-KT11C-MM-005 KT11-C, CD Memory Management Unit Maintenance Manual > EK-MS11A-MM-006 MS11-A,B,C memory System Maintenance Manual > > PDP-11 Systems Course Training Drawings > PDP-11/45, 11/70 Maintenance Course handout book > > And some diagnostic listings for the 11/40 and 11/45. > > I have not looked through my fiche for ECO info, though I am not > hopeful, but will look tomorrow. Most of my fiche are too modern. > > Let me know what you want me to scan - should be able to get to it later > this week. > > JRJ > > > On 1/27/2019 6:40 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >> Those reading through the recent "PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem" thread here >> will know that I've gotten to some corners of my 11/45 CPU now that don't >> match up with the commonly available engineering drawings. >> >> My /45 is an early serial number (#152). So far I've verified hardware >> differences on at least my M8100 and M8105 cards and spares, relating to >> parity error abort handling. I would really like to track down any of the >> following resources: >> >> - PDP 11/45 system engineering drawings *earlier* than those currently >> available on bitsavers (Jun '74) >> >> - Any PDP 11/45 backplane wire list (what looks to be a wire list in the >> currently available engineering drawings is actually only a breakdown of the >> power harness.) >> >> - PDP 11/45 ECO information, particularly the following: >> >> M8100 3 >> M8103 5 >> M8105 5 >> M8106 7, 8, 00012, 00012A >> M8110 8 >> >> KB11-A 00015 >> >> Bitsavers seems to have a DEC-O-LOG for M8105, but this does not contain >> specifics on cuts and jumps for EC
Re: OT Parts houses & scrappers
Sorry, but no. It?s grossly offensive for things that work perfectly well and that someone might actually find useful to go to scrap. There?s tons of useless and broken junk that our civilization can mine for scrap, we don?t need to actually destroy things that have actual value. If someone isn?t able to sell for the price they?d like to get, maybe the market won?t bear that price and they need to lower it. Scrapping should be a course of last resort, a way to recover value from something you can?t even give away, not a competing outlet for goods. -- Chris While I also don't like scrapping out things that work or can be repaired relatively easily, a saying I use in a variety of situation is "don't force your limitations on me, I have enough of my own." That said, I VERY much appreciate the free pile at VCFMW that allows me to get rid of stuff that will go to a good home rather than go to landfill or scrap (I DON'T DO EBAY!!!) Many times I find free to be far to expensive for most people including myself (think postage/shipping/prep time.)
Re: sun 88780 on ebay
On 2019-01-29 14:45, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > A 30+ track head to deal with a variety of tape formats would be ideal. Not > just 7 and 9 but real oddballs -- there are some 10 track 1/2 inch tape > formats around. Not to mention that one could read DECtape that way, even if > the head is only 1/2 inch wide (some loss of redundancy in that case). > > Are the heads that Bordynuik mentioned still around? On ebay? IBM 31F7092 36 Track ...
Re: sun 88780 on ebay
> On Jan 29, 2019, at 2:31 PM, John Foust via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > I posted about his a few years ago. See below. > ... > He wishes there was a modern replacement for reading old tapes. > Seven-track and nine-track. Speed is not an issue; data recovery is. > He says hardly anyone wants to write to tapes any more. > > A simple transport, a flexible read-head, a bunch of software, right? > Call it TapeFerret. The design described by John Bordynuik seems like a good one, and would be easier still by now. A Beaglebone with FPGA daughtercard is probably plenty for the signal processing part. A 30+ track head to deal with a variety of tape formats would be ideal. Not just 7 and 9 but real oddballs -- there are some 10 track 1/2 inch tape formats around. Not to mention that one could read DECtape that way, even if the head is only 1/2 inch wide (some loss of redundancy in that case). Are the heads that Bordynuik mentioned still around? paul
Re: sun 88780 on ebay
At 10:55 AM 1/29/2019, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >David, do you know of anyone that has the schematics for these drives? >MANY years ago, someone in Seattle had them, but I never was able to get the >guy who >said he got a copy tell me who that was. Do you know this guy? http://www.comco-inc.com/hp-88780-9-track-tape-drive-p29921.html I posted about his a few years ago. See below. - John Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2012 10:40:33 -0600 To: From: John Foust Subject: Re: Want a 9-track repair business? At 02:04 PM 10/5/2011, I wrote: >I had three 9-tracks I'd picked up a few years ago. None worked >out of the box; they collected dust. Last weekend I knew I'd pass >by http://www.comco-inc.com/ in Bettendorf, Iowa, one of the few >9-track sales and service places I'd found. This fellow called me again today, out of the blue. In the year ahead, he hopes to sell his building and down-size, focusing on the repair of smaller drives and dumping the bulk of his 9-track business. It sounds like he has a bunch of 88780-class 9-tracks that'll go to the scrapper. He wishes there was a modern replacement for reading old tapes. Seven-track and nine-track. Speed is not an issue; data recovery is. He says hardly anyone wants to write to tapes any more. A simple transport, a flexible read-head, a bunch of software, right? Call it TapeFerret. He mentioned another company that makes a modern 7-track drive and sells it for $50K+ to the seismic end of the oil industry. And that's where his 9-track business is today: much is for the oil industry mostly outside the USA. They want to read old seismic data and reprocess it using new techniques to find more oil. Another more profitable business is fixing more recent tape drives for IBM mainframes. Another chunk is a few specific models of 9-track that work with old Alcatel phone switches. There's still some equipment and processes that require a real drive and that does not work with tape emulators. I offered to hook him up with buyers for any still-working units he doesn't want to keep when he downsizes his business. I also offered to connect him with the professional classic computer curators who might need his help when it comes to reading or restoring old tape media and devices. - John >Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 15:04:41 -0500 >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >From: John Foust >Subject: Want a 9-track repair business? > > >I had three 9-tracks I'd picked up a few years ago. None worked >out of the box; they collected dust. Last weekend I knew I'd pass >by http://www.comco-inc.com/ in Bettendorf, Iowa, one of the few >9-track sales and service places I'd found. I didn't have much >advance warning, so I just brought the drives with me and left them >at his door step because the shop was closed. I left an M4 9914, >an Overland Data 5622, and an HP 88780. > >Diagnosis is $495, deductable from repairs if I proceed. Ouch! > >He says he still sells "a few" 9-tracks a year. His offer to me >was a reconditioned HP 88780 for $1795 including manual, cleaning pads >and a scratch tape. > >He said "BIG IDEA... Here's a wonderful chance to corner the 9-track >business: I'll sell you 1000 lbs of parts for $1,000 (FOB Bettendorf). >I'll even throw in graphics, manuals, etc. At the very least, you >will be able to build several drives. I am not kidding." > >The building he's in has a commercial real-estate "for sale" sign >out front. Maybe he was a renter and he needs to move. > >- John
Re: early PDP-11/45 info sought
On 1/27/2019 11:01 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jay, > >> On Jan 27, 2019, at 7:07 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >> I think I can help some... I DO have earlier PDP-11/45 CPU drawings... > > Man, this list is the absolute best! > > The '72 KB11-A drawings would be most immediately useful. If you only have > time for a subset of pages, I would find the schematics for M8100, M8103, > M8105, and M8106 particularly interesting. > > It would also be interesting to compare the M8103 ROM listings between the > '72 and '74 drawing sets and see whether they snuck in any microcode > changes/fixes. Will start scanning today. > > I do have KT11-C and FP11-B in my system, but haven't checked their > provenance yet. To the extent that I've had to repair these, anyway, they've > matched the drawings that I do have. > >> I have a PDP-11/45 From U. Wisc. ECE that claims to be S/N 1525 > > Wow, another <2000 11/45! Do you have yours up and running? Do have its ECO > history? I found one other oddity during my restore that seems related to > early 11/45's -- no +15V to pin CU1 in SPC slots 26-28, which keeps any EIA > DL11 from working correctly in those slots (though the contemporary 20ma > DL11-A would work). I have a feeling this might have been addressed in a > later ECO. It would be interesting to check this on your backplane? > My 11/45 has not been on for a log time. Some time ago I had it on, it could sometimes boot RT-11, but failed MUL diagnostics - but I was not confident that the diagnostic itself was correct. I will see if I can check on the +15V issue (hopefully without having to turn the thing on) - I don't have a real TTY for it to talk to, so it isn't something I would have noticed. > Thanks for taking a look through your library, and for the generous offer to > take the time to do some scans. > >cheers, > --FritzM. > > > Not a problem. Fortunately, when I migrated to my new PC this winter, I had the foresight to test my scanner - which did NOT work because the TWAIN drivers for it (a Ricoh IS300e) would no longer install, and installed a virtualbox VM running Windows 7 to talk with it. JRJ
Re: early PDP-11/45 info sought
From: Jay Jaeger > Here is what I have for drawings: Wow. You have some very desirable stuff there! Let me point at a couple of things of particular interest: > B-TC-FP11-C-6 FP11-C (Print Set MP00038) December 75 > [M8126, M8127, M8128, M8129] AFAIK, prints for the FP11-C are not available online: http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9306 so those of us with an FP11-C would be particularly grateful if you could scan those and make them available. > EK-KT11C-MM-005 KT11-C, CD Memory Management Unit Maintenance Manual Not available online; the earlier DEC-11-HKTCA-C-D KT11-C Memory Management Unit Maintenance Manual is available online, but doesn't cover the -CD. This one is in the fiche set, but it's a pain to work with (especially since my fiche reader burned out its bulb recently :-), so it's a 'nice to have', scan-wise. > EK-MS11A-MM-006 MS11-A,B,C memory System Maintenance Manual Agaih, not available online, but in the fiche. Ditto 'nice to have'. Of course, anything you've got that's not online should be scanned 'eventually' (I have several of those myself, sigh). Noel
decgraphic brochures on eBay
Is anyone here bidding on them that intends to scan them? I won't snipe them if that's the case
Re: sun 88780 on ebay
doesn't matter. it would be on the options list, which the seller smeared out the other odd thing was there should be a sun logo badge on the front On 1/29/19 1:44 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > I read > HP Tape Drive 1/2" 1600/6250 1E > on the label at the back.
Re: sun 88780 on ebay
On 1/28/19 8:08 PM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: > I just restored a 7980XC (HP commercial version of the 88780) and it all > worked after I reinitialised the gains in each channel. David, do you know of anyone that has the schematics for these drives? MANY years ago, someone in Seattle had them, but I never was able to get the guy who said he got a copy tell me who that was.
Re: OT Parts houses & scrappers
On 01/29/2019 05:38 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: Space is money. Organization is money. Information is money. Advertising / listing for sale takes time and money. And it all only gets worse if the item is heavy, dirty, or leaking. One of the most impressive (videos of) ""organization that I've seen is when Curious Mark and co went to visit Mr TTY (?) for parts for their TTYs. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: OT Parts houses & scrappers
At 07:13 PM 1/28/2019, dwight via cctalk wrote: >When looking at the 45 minutes, also consider the various overheads involved. >They are in business. Time is money. Space is money. Organization is money. Information is money. Advertising / listing for sale takes time and money. And it all only gets worse if the item is heavy, dirty, or leaking. - John
Re: sun 88780 on ebay
On Mon, 28 Jan 2019, Al Kossow wrote: https://www.ebay.com/itm/132933407806 this is interesting because of the price and that all of the Sun drives I've ever come across had the 800bpi option in them I read HP Tape Drive 1/2" 1600/6250 1E on the label at the back. Christian
