Re: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.
On Jan 30, 2021, at 10:09, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Hi Doug! No, we do not have a copy of this HP JOURNAL. We do not have > manuals either. We,are lucky to have the unit wonder if you can still order > ink for the printer. I do have an unopened ink cartrige. HP 51604A. I was surprised a few months ago to find that Staples claims to be able to sell new HP cartridges. Looking earlier today, HP can too! Seriously, we’re talking about ink cartridges including replacement print heads for printers manufactured in 1983. -Frank McConnell
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:16 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > I can't go very far with the EXB8200 because I don't have a cartridge > for it. I am now trying the Compaq DLT4000. > You can still get boxes of sealed never used EXABYTE 112M 8mm data tapes cheap. For example a quick search turned up a box of 5 sealed tapes for $6 including shipping: https://www.ebay.com/itm/124081752928 I didn't try searching for items located in Canada, I suppose that might make things a bit more expensive.
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
> From: Glen Slick > The KDJ11-E 11/93 has PMI signals on the CD connectors, so you need a > Q/CD backplane I have this bit set that plugging a PMI card into a Q/Q slot will damage it? (I think the issue is that some PMI pins are 12V on normal QBUS; too tired to check tonight, I'll get to it tomorrow.) Noel
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
Thank you Jim, John, and Glen. I'll see if I can find one to tryout. Good night, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org On 2021-01-30 8:52 p.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:41 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East >> last year (but one :-) ) Does anybody on the list have experience >> getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? > I'm not sure if I have tried an EXB-8200 and Dilog SQ703 combination, > I might have. > > I know I have used an EXB-8200 and CMD CQD-220/TM combination numerous > times to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 from tape on PDP-11 systems. > That has worked well for me. > > I haven't done much with tape on MicroVAX systems.
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
On 01/30/2021 07:41 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East last year (but one :-) ) Does anybody on the list have experience getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? Exabytes are pretty classic SCSi tape drives. They come in single-ended and differential configurations, you need to check which you have. The downside is they have a short working life. Back in the day, there were outfits that would rebuild them at an affordable price, I think they cannibalized video drives for parts. I don't know what failed on them, but it seemed that whatever it was would fail even if powered-off and sitting on the shelf. You should have no trouble running them on anything that handles SCSI tape drives. Jon
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
On 1/30/2021 6:16 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: I can't go very far with the EXB8200 because I don't have a cartridge for it. I am now trying the Compaq DLT4000. Off the shelf 8mm tape media works fine. Might not be "archival" rated, but I have stuff that is 30 years old and reads fine off both that media and the 4mm tape drives. Only tape I have that won't read is one I marked as one I aborted the backup on and kept "just in case" and is marked "bad". All the rest read. I don't think any of the 8mm media is manufactured anymore, but NOS should work fine. thanks Jim
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
I can't go very far with the EXB8200 because I don't have a cartridge for it. I am now trying the Compaq DLT4000. Unfortunately there is not a lot the on-board Dilog diagnostics can do. I have tried sedning direct commands to it such as unload, but nothing ha[p[pens.it is my oinly hope to get some tapoe backup! If I try: dd if=/dev/mt0 of=/dev/null I get dd: /dev/mt0: Input/output error But if I try another LUN I get e.g. dd: /dev/mt1: Device not configured So it looks like it is recognising the drive. Maybe Compaq DLTs required something that the controller of NetBSD driver does no know about. Since I have lost the MTI TSV05 QIC2 controller cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org On 2021-01-30 8:52 p.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:41 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East >> last year (but one :-) ) Does anybody on the list have experience >> getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? > I'm not sure if I have tried an EXB-8200 and Dilog SQ703 combination, > I might have. > I know I have used an EXB-8200 and CMD CQD-220/TM combination numerous > times to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 from tape on PDP-11 systems. > That has worked well for me. > > I haven't done much with tape on MicroVAX systems.
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 5:41 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East > last year (but one :-) ) Does anybody on the list have experience > getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? I'm not sure if I have tried an EXB-8200 and Dilog SQ703 combination, I might have. I know I have used an EXB-8200 and CMD CQD-220/TM combination numerous times to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 from tape on PDP-11 systems. That has worked well for me. I haven't done much with tape on MicroVAX systems.
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
Thanks, Glen. I got out of direct field work around that time, and set up a subsidiary of Emulex in Canada - so I was more concerned with sales figures than buses. That makes perfect sense, I had forgotten about the 11/94. Funny how all my controllers are now Dilog, Plessey, and Sigma :-) btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East last year (but one :-) ) Does anybody on the list have experience getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org On 2021-01-30 7:19 p.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 3:58 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> OK, thanks, Glen, i didn't think of that! Not sure why they would do >> that with all memeory on-board! >> > The PMI interfaces of the KDJ11-B and KDJ11-E modules are used to > interface to the M8191 KTJ11-B UNIBUS adaptor in the PDP-11/84 and > PDP-11/94 systems.
Re: APL\360
It was thus said that the Great Bill Gunshannon via cctalk once stated: > On 1/29/21 4:12 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > >>On 01/29/2021 2:58 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> > > > >>'=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, and > >>which the compiler doesn't catch: > >>if (x = 3) . . . /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ > >>I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would return a > >>WARNING for it. > >> > > > >Modern Visual Studio and GCC both flag the "=" in a condition, I believe. > >But if you're shipping code with 260+ warnings, who would see one more. > > And the problem here is really quite plain and simple. > Why are you shipping code with any warnings? Because sometimes they aren't. Example: gcc -std=c99 -g -Wall -Wextra -pedantic -fPIC -g -shared -o lib/tcc.so src/tcc.c -ltcc src/tcc.c: In function cclua_get_symbol': src/tcc.c:528: warning: ISO C forbids assignment between function pointer and `void *' ISO C may forbid that, but POSIX requires it, and I'm compiling on a POSIX system, but there isn't (to my knowledge) a way to state that. Yes, I could probably surpresss that one warning, but for me, it's easier to ignore on POSIX systems. Also, have you tried clang with the highest warning level? It's useless. I tried it once, only to be told "warning: struct foo has padding bytes added" (or something to that effect). Okay, so I pack the structure, only to get "Warning: struct foo doesn't have any padding". Yean, real useful that. -spc
Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29
On Sat, 2021-01-30 at 12:37 -0800, Mark Moulding via cctalk wrote: > On 1/29/21 12:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > I like indentation, and demanded it from my students. > > > > That's fine, but when you have a language that makes indentation part of > > the language (i.e. no braces, brackets or keywords denoting boundaries > > of the block) , there be monsters. > > > > And yes, there are such languages. > > Uh - Python comes to mind... And Occam, invented for the Transputer. > ~~ > Mark Moulding >
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 3:58 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > OK, thanks, Glen, i didn't think of that! Not sure why they would do > that with all memeory on-board! > The PMI interfaces of the KDJ11-B and KDJ11-E modules are used to interface to the M8191 KTJ11-B UNIBUS adaptor in the PDP-11/84 and PDP-11/94 systems.
Re: APL\360
On 1/30/21 1:57 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: On 30/01/2021 12:45, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 1/29/21 4:25 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: On 01/29/21 15:58, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote (in part): '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, and which the compiler doesn't catch: if (x = 3) . . .  /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would return a WARNING for it. Henry's first commandment: Thou shalt run lint frequently and study its pronouncements with care, for verily its perception and judgement oft exceed thine. N. Which Henry was that? Henry Spencer perhaps? Yes, Henry Spencer (formerly of zoo.toronto.edu). N. Another blast from the past. I haven't seen anything of or spoken with him in nearly 30 years. bill
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
OK, thanks, Glen, i didn't think of that! Not sure why they would do that with all memeory on-board! One thing I though of was just buying some IDC 36-pin card edge connectors and wiring them together for the work bench! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org On 2021-01-30 6:08 p.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 2:20 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> Yes the BA11S would be too big. Can't see why not for the 11/03 chassis. >> I used to make a good living upgrading 1/03 chasses with four extra bits >> for the 11/23/73 (Hmm, where is my old stock of W933 bus strip!) >> Always works except in the MINC laboratory system, which used those four >> pins for module identification. >> >> Since all the memory is on-board with the 11/93 I don't think it would >> make a difference unless DMA used, and I don't plan to go that far! I >> could always wire-wrap them. > The KDJ11-E 11/93 has PMI signals on the CD connectors, so you need a > Q/CD backplane, such as the 18-bit 4x9 H9273, the 22-bit 4x9 H9276, or > the 22-bit 4x8 H9278 (BA23 backplane). > > The 4x4 H9270 is a Q/Q backplane, so that would cause a conflict with > the PMI signals on the CD connectors of the KDJ11-E 11/93.
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 2:20 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > Yes the BA11S would be too big. Can't see why not for the 11/03 chassis. > I used to make a good living upgrading 1/03 chasses with four extra bits > for the 11/23/73 (Hmm, where is my old stock of W933 bus strip!) > Always works except in the MINC laboratory system, which used those four > pins for module identification. > > Since all the memory is on-board with the 11/93 I don't think it would > make a difference unless DMA used, and I don't plan to go that far! I > could always wire-wrap them. The KDJ11-E 11/93 has PMI signals on the CD connectors, so you need a Q/CD backplane, such as the 18-bit 4x9 H9273, the 22-bit 4x9 H9276, or the 22-bit 4x8 H9278 (BA23 backplane). The 4x4 H9270 is a Q/Q backplane, so that would cause a conflict with the PMI signals on the CD connectors of the KDJ11-E 11/93.
Re: APL\360 (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29
On 1/30/21 1:38 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Actually, that was Chuck who said that "there be monsters" when > languages use whitespace rather than punctuation to denote boundaries. And then there's "make", where a hard tab must be used for indentation, unless it's a recipe, then spaces must be used for indentation. One of those cases where one asks "Who wrote this (*&@#?"? --Chuck
Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29
On 1/30/21 12:44 PM, Mark Moulding via cctalk wrote: > I used to play string bass in a symphony, and there were many times that > there would be long periods of rest, where it was important to count the > bars (measures) going by so as to come back in at the right time. To > this day (that was 40+ years ago) I can still count quite rapidly up to > 31 on one hand (either one). Higher numbers slow me down a bit... One of my favorite old Mahler cartoons is a shot of a mustachioed tuba player, sound asleep. Title is something like "G. Mahler/Symphonie Nr. 5./IV. Adagietto/ Tacet" For low brass, there's a lot of that sort of thing in the symphonic repertoire. --Chuck
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
Yes the BA11S would be too big. Can't see why not for the 11/03 chassis. I used to make a good living upgrading 1/03 chasses with four extra bits for the 11/23/73 (Hmm, where is my old stock of W933 bus strip!) Always works except in the MINC laboratory system, which used those four pins for module identification. Since all the memory is on-board with the 11/93 I don't think it would make a difference unless DMA used, and I don't plan to go that far! I could always wire-wrap them. Can you ship to Toronto, ON? How much? cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org On 2021-01-30 4:14 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Hm. I have a 9 slot BA11-S that I have to sell/ebay/something here, > but that's probably way too big for you. I wonder though: Would an > 11/93 explode if put in a traditional 18 bit 11/03 chassis? The one > with the memory refresh lines and power for core memory. > > Probably. > > CZ > > On 1/30/2021 12:30 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> I'm trying to repair an LSI-11/93 that has a bus timeout problem. >> Unfortunately the BA23 box it normally sits in lives in a cupboard with >> printers stowed on top of it and due to my domestic situation (small >> condo) I can't get it out to scope or get a scope anywhere near it to >> scope the bus. >> >> I'm thinking that the solution would be to get a small QBUS backplane >> that I can put on my desk in the middle of my test equipment. >> >> Like a 4-slot ABAB oir even ABCD would do. >> >> Does anybody have one they don't want? Power supply not needed. >> >> cheers, >> >> Nigel >>
APL\360 (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29
Actually, that was Chuck who said that "there be monsters" when languages
use whitespace rather than punctuation to denote boundaries.
I use both indentation for my readability AND brackets to be explicit.
Consider:
if condition
{ do this;
do that;
}
VS:
if (condition)
do this;
do that; /* will be done disunirregardless of condition */
On Sat, 30 Jan 2021, Mark Moulding via cctalk wrote:
On 1/29/21 12:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I like indentation, and demanded it from my students.
That's fine, but when you have a language that makes indentation part of
the language (i.e. no braces, brackets or keywords denoting boundaries
of the block) , there be monsters.
And yes, there are such languages.
Uh - Python comes to mind...
~~
Mark Moulding
Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29
From: dwight If we'd thought about it we could count to 1023 on our fingers. I used to play string bass in a symphony, and there were many times that there would be long periods of rest, where it was important to count the bars (measures) going by so as to come back in at the right time. To this day (that was 40+ years ago) I can still count quite rapidly up to 31 on one hand (either one). Higher numbers slow me down a bit... Old bass joke: During the last movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony, there is a very long tacit (rest) for the basses. So the bass section all went over to the bar across the street for a drink or three. To keep the conductor from passing by their entry, they put a rubber band around his music. So the situation was... Bottom of the ninth, basses loaded, score tied. (sorry...) ~~ Mark Moulding
Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 76, Issue 29
On 1/29/21 12:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: I like indentation, and demanded it from my students. That's fine, but when you have a language that makes indentation part of the language (i.e. no braces, brackets or keywords denoting boundaries of the block) , there be monsters. And yes, there are such languages. Uh - Python comes to mind... ~~ Mark Moulding
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
Hm. I have a 9 slot BA11-S that I have to sell/ebay/something here, but that's probably way too big for you. I wonder though: Would an 11/93 explode if put in a traditional 18 bit 11/03 chassis? The one with the memory refresh lines and power for core memory. Probably. CZ On 1/30/2021 12:30 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: I'm trying to repair an LSI-11/93 that has a bus timeout problem. Unfortunately the BA23 box it normally sits in lives in a cupboard with printers stowed on top of it and due to my domestic situation (small condo) I can't get it out to scope or get a scope anywhere near it to scope the bus. I'm thinking that the solution would be to get a small QBUS backplane that I can put on my desk in the middle of my test equipment. Like a 4-slot ABAB oir even ABCD would do. Does anybody have one they don't want? Power supply not needed. cheers, Nigel
Re: APL\360
On 1/30/21 9:52 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 1/29/21 10:03 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: And unfortunately some industries it is prohibited. Those industries *require* conformance to MISRA, CERT-C, ISO-26262 and others. There is *no* choice since the code has to be audited and compliance is *not* optional. Just an illustration of what happens when you take a "portable alternative to assembly" and put lipstick on it. I've been programming C since System III Unix and I still consider it to be a portable (sort of) alternative to assembly. One of the problems with C, in my view, is a lack of direction. There are plenty of languages that aim for specific ends. (e.g. COBOL = business/commercial, FORTRAN = scientific, Java = web applications, etc.). But whence C or C++? In my dotage, I do a fair amount of MCU programming nowadays, and C is the lingua franca in that world; the only real alternative is assembly, so that makes some sense. Python, Ada, etc. never really managed to make much headway there. C is far more prevalent than C++ in that world, FWIW. Does standard C have vector extensions yet? I was an alternate rep for my firm for F90 (was supposed to be F88) for vector extensions; it's just a matter of curiosity. I've been writing in C since 1977 (Unix V6 days and went through the =+ to += conversion in V7). I've seen *a lot* of changes in C over that time. Most of what I do is low level stuff (OS, RTOS, etc) and actually *rarely* even use the C library (most of what I build is built with -nostdlibs). I typically build using -c99 but I'm looking at C11 because of atomics that were introduced then but I have to see what's native compiler generated versus what it relies on for the atomic operations. I haven't yet seen what's in C17 yet. I've also been known to write a special hand crafted function so that an entire portion of the C library doesn't get pulled in. Not only did it save a bunch of space but it was *much* faster too. TTFN - Guy
Re: APL\360
On 30/01/2021 12:45, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 1/29/21 4:25 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: On 01/29/21 15:58, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote (in part): '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, and which the compiler doesn't catch: if (x = 3) . . .  /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would return a WARNING for it. Henry's first commandment: Thou shalt run lint frequently and study its pronouncements with care, for verily its perception and judgement oft exceed thine. N. Which Henry was that? Henry Spencer perhaps? Yes, Henry Spencer (formerly of zoo.toronto.edu). N.
Re: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.
Hi Doug! No, we do not have a copy of this HP JOURNAL. We do not have manuals either. We,are lucky to have the unit wonder if you can still order ink for the printer. I do have an unopened ink cartrige. I will have to get a copy of this journal meanwhile I will read this one you sent the link to! Back when we were selling the HP PC computers this was a current product but outside our contract with HP. I was working with HP 150 abd the display potables HP offered and used 1000 2000 and 3000 systems but always looked at how neat this was. Ed# On Saturday, January 30, 2021 Doug Salot wrote: I assume you already have a copy of the Oct 1985 HP Journal?http://hparchive.com/Journals/HPJ-1985-10.pdf On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:01 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a computer on the table" Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need! Thank you very much in advance Ed Sharpe - Archivist for SMECC
Re: APL\360
> On 01/30/2021 11:50 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 1/29/21 6:08 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Will Cooke via cctalk once stated: > > > > >>> On 01/29/2021 4:42 PM David Barto via cctalk > >>> wrote: > >> > >>> Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable -Werror; > >>> all warnings are errors. And I’ll fix every one. Even when everyone > >>> claims that “These are not a problem”. Before that existed, I’d do the > >>> same with lint, and FlexeLint when I could get it. > >> > >> That's exactly what I did. I was promptly told I was likely to get fired > >> for it. > > WHY? Why would you get fired for fixing warnings? Would it make some > > manager upstream look bad or something? > They would see you as wasting valuable time fixing non-problems. > I would not work in a place like that. Worse sti8ll is when you > work in a place point out logic errors that result in bad answers > that, obviously, don't get flagged by the compiler and nobody wants > to hear it. > > bill That happened too, with similar results. "Don't touch it. You might 'break' it." "It's already broken." "But it 'works'" That code is running maybe 25% of all mid-sized commercial heat pumps in use today. "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert Einstein
Re: APL\360
On 1/29/21 9:19 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 1/29/21 5:55 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: My problem with words such as DAA is that I constantly have to look them up to see exactly what they actually do. Finding alternate uses it all about knowing what they actually do. I know what they were put there for ( to keep banker happy ). I constantly see people claiming how much better decimal is than the English system of meassurment. I don't really think that much of the decimal number system. If we'd only been born with 8 fingers on each hand, computers would have been so much easier. Thing like powers of 2 are easier to understand in binary. Such is life. If only we'd known. Dwight Such as 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, and 50 seconds in a minute? Although decimal time has been proposed numerous times, somehow we can't shake our Babylonian roots, even if we don't have 60 fingers. And what's with these 12 months of different lengths? :-) bill
Re: APL\360
On 1/29/21 10:03 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > > And unfortunately some industries it is prohibited. Those industries > *require* conformance to MISRA, CERT-C, ISO-26262 and others. There is > *no* choice since the code has to be audited and compliance is *not* > optional. Just an illustration of what happens when you take a "portable alternative to assembly" and put lipstick on it. I've been programming C since System III Unix and I still consider it to be a portable (sort of) alternative to assembly. One of the problems with C, in my view, is a lack of direction. There are plenty of languages that aim for specific ends. (e.g. COBOL = business/commercial, FORTRAN = scientific, Java = web applications, etc.). But whence C or C++? In my dotage, I do a fair amount of MCU programming nowadays, and C is the lingua franca in that world; the only real alternative is assembly, so that makes some sense. Python, Ada, etc. never really managed to make much headway there. C is far more prevalent than C++ in that world, FWIW. Does standard C have vector extensions yet? I was an alternate rep for my firm for F90 (was supposed to be F88) for vector extensions; it's just a matter of curiosity. --Chuck
Re: APL\360
On 1/29/21 6:08 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: It was thus said that the Great Will Cooke via cctalk once stated: On 01/29/2021 4:42 PM David Barto via cctalk wrote: Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable -Werror; all warnings are errors. And I’ll fix every one. Even when everyone claims that “These are not a problem”. Before that existed, I’d do the same with lint, and FlexeLint when I could get it. That's exactly what I did. I was promptly told I was likely to get fired for it. WHY? Why would you get fired for fixing warnings? Would it make some manager upstream look bad or something? They would see you as wasting valuable time fixing non-problems. I would not work in a place like that. Worse sti8ll is when you work in a place point out logic errors that result in bad answers that, obviously, don't get flagged by the compiler and nobody wants to hear it. bill
Re: APL\360
> On 01/30/2021 11:42 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > Modern Visual Studio and GCC both flag the "=" in a condition, I believe. > > But if you're shipping code with 260+ warnings, who would see one more. > And the problem here is really quite plain and simple. > Why are you shipping code with any warnings? > The short answer, as I replied earlier, is that they deemed the code too fragile to touch. When I told them I removed the warnings they said to put them back or I would likely be fired. > > There's a pretty good chance the heat pump you're using right now has those > > warnings. Alas... > Just because some other programmer is an idiot doesn't mean I have > to be. They only wanted idiots. So I immediately started looking for another job. I might be an idiot, but I don't want to be associated with the rest of them :-) Will "A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new." -- Albert Einstein
Re: APL\360
On 1/29/21 4:25 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: On 01/29/21 15:58, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote (in part): '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, and which the compiler doesn't catch: if (x = 3) . . . /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would return a WARNING for it. Henry's first commandment: Thou shalt run lint frequently and study its pronouncements with care, for verily its perception and judgement oft exceed thine. N. Which Henry was that? Henry Spencer perhaps? bill
Re: APL\360
On 1/29/21 4:12 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: On 01/29/2021 2:58 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: '=' and '==' makes possible what is probably the most common error, and which the compiler doesn't catch: if (x = 3) . . . /* sets x to 3 and gives TRUE for the condition */ I imagine that there are probably some pre-processors that would return a WARNING for it. Modern Visual Studio and GCC both flag the "=" in a condition, I believe. But if you're shipping code with 260+ warnings, who would see one more. And the problem here is really quite plain and simple. Why are you shipping code with any warnings? There's a pretty good chance the heat pump you're using right now has those warnings. Alas... Just because some other programmer is an idiot doesn't mean I have to be. bill
Re: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.
I assume you already have a copy of the Oct 1985 HP Journal? http://hparchive.com/Journals/HPJ-1985-10.pdf On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:01 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. > > We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around > it for. > > Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting > visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a > computer on the table" > > Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need! > > Thank you very much in advance > Ed Sharpe - Archivist for SMECC >
Re: APL\360
On 1/29/21 2:20 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Fri, 29 Jan 2021, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: BTW, I don't really know Hebrew but doesn't it still write math LTR? I know they write numbers that way. CAREFUL. We don't need another BIG-endian/little-endian debate! (when a 16 bit number is stored in bytes, does the high order byte come first, or the low order byte?) (cf. intel V Motorola) Yes, it does. :-) bill
Re: APL\360
> On Jan 29, 2021, at 8:27 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > If we'd thought about it we could count to 1023 on our fingers. > Dwight My kids actually do that (because I did think about it when they were growing up). And not just to impress me, I was watching the elder daughter in an orchestra concert via streaming cam one time. The camera happened to catch her during a really long rest, and I could see her hand resting on her knee, counting out measures in binary. As far as I know, none of the kids have learned to control their toes individually, so they can’t actually count up to 1,048,575 :-). - Mark
Small DEC QBUS backplane
I'm trying to repair an LSI-11/93 that has a bus timeout problem. Unfortunately the BA23 box it normally sits in lives in a cupboard with printers stowed on top of it and due to my domestic situation (small condo) I can't get it out to scope or get a scope anywhere near it to scope the bus. I'm thinking that the solution would be to get a small QBUS backplane that I can put on my desk in the middle of my test equipment. Like a 4-slot ABAB oir even ABCD would do. Does anybody have one they don't want? Power supply not needed. cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org
Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.
Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for. Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a computer on the table" Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need! Thank you very much in advance Ed Sharpe - Archivist for SMECC
Re: ISO IBM flex cables made by Chabin
On 01/30/2021 07:29 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: I'm making some replacement cables and paddle cards so I'm on the lookout for these connectors on cable assemblies. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/dasd/21ED/chabin_4.jpg You'd think there would be piles of them around since they were used as the interplanar connecting cables in lots of IBM products. Oh wow! Yes, I may have some of these laying around somewhere. I will look, it might be a few days. Jon
ISO IBM flex cables made by Chabin
I'm making some replacement cables and paddle cards so I'm on the lookout for these connectors on cable assemblies. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/dasd/21ED/chabin_4.jpg You'd think there would be piles of them around since they were used as the interplanar connecting cables in lots of IBM products.
Re: APL\360
I was responsible for the Macintosh version and hence was both permitted to address the changes and criticized for impacting the Windows builds - the changes were in shared code. I would probably face legal issues if I named names. [You can always look me up in LinkedIn and, with minor detective skills, guess which product...] From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 6:57:28 PM Subject: Re: APL\360 It was thus said that the Great Norman Jaffe via cctalk once stated: > > It happened to me as well - I found hundreds of warnings in the code and, > after getting permission to address them, I was fired Wait ... you got *permission* and were still *fired*? Have I just been fortunate in where I've worked my entire career? [1] > because 'we would > have to recompile the Windows version due to the changes you made'; the > source code was reverted to the state before I made the changes. Wouldn't you have to recompile the Windows version for updates? Or was the company too cheap (or was unable to) run regression tests? > I refuse > to have their product on any system that I have involvement with... Can you name names? Or do you need to protect yourself? -spc [1] Possibly yes.
