[cctalk] Re: Memex from 1945 Pre-computer Information Tech
On 2022-09-23 5:26 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: As for the defense maps, they really DID exist. Our university had some bits of SAGE, and one of the things was the big map projector. The way the thing worked was a small CRT was projected onto movie film, the film ran through a developer, and then was projected onto a large screen. I don't know what the delay for film processing was, but it must have been 30 seconds or so. Jon That rememinded me of another project, The Memex from 1945. A hyper-text terminal before the internet using micro film and other analog media of the day. Output was dry film process. https://trevor.smith.name/project/memex/ https://retrocomputingforum.com/t/trevor-flowers-rebuilds-memex-and-alto/2740 Ben.
[cctalk] Re: i860 vs. i960 WAS Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip
> I always thought the i960 was an upgrade to the i860 (sort of like i386 to > i486 upgrade). However, based on the info on wiki it seems as if the i960 > actually came first and although a RISC chip it was in no way in the same > league as the i860. Anyone can clarify or verify this? I'm not even sure I'd call them related. The i960 is a very different, almost "normal" RISC chip compared to the i860, though it uses Berkeley register windows like SPARC. It has excellent XOR performance, so it got used a lot later on in RAID arrays (my Apple Network Server 500 has a RAID card with an i960 on it). A few systems used it and it was popular in military applications but it never achieved its potential mostly due to internal politics at Intel -- not because it sucked -- and the DEC StrongARM settlement mostly put a stake through it. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead, on relativity --
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
Yep, that was it. I don't remember your offer, but yes the power supply was shot and needed repairs. Regardless, it's gone so I have more space in my life. The Perqs went for free as well, but those went to people who know what they are and can take care of them. There's still one in my shed though, along with a Perq Canon laser printer and I need to think about that... CZ On 9/23/2022 5:26 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was that a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. That's not the general consensus, at all. There are several HP mini fans on this list, and even more on HP-specific lists. If this was the Gerber-branded model, it wasn't in good shape and the power supply didn't work. I made a cash offer for it, and you wanted three times the amount. Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
[cctalk] i860 vs. i960 WAS Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip
I always thought the i960 was an upgrade to the i860 (sort of like i386 to i486 upgrade). However, based on the info on wiki it seems as if the i960 actually came first and although a RISC chip it was in no way in the same league as the i860. Anyone can clarify or verify this? -Ali
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
Ya. Thanks for the mention but it was before my time. I was in 8th grade when I first met Lincoln. That was 1976. We did tune clocks on a CY203 a few times but it wasn’t until ETA that I started doing real work ;-) All cool stuff though and the stories were endless and awesome. cje -- Chris Elmquist > On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 9/23/22 10:52, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. >> Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret >> number crunching. > > Well, consider the 1969 STAR-100; although not well documented, had a > 512-bit wide, error-checked I/O channel that ran at memory speed. Neil > had various schemes for it, including a 100K RPM head-per-track drum > that ran in vacuo. I recall him mentioning that the prototype lasted > around a minute before the observation window was covered with the > remnants of the drum surface. > > Or consider the STAR SCROLL--a very wide tape that ran over a > head-per-track drum. I don't recall seeing that prototype; maybe it > existed only in the mind. But we had to mention both in our responses > to RFQs. > > This may be before Chris Elmquist's time, but he might also remember. > Too bad that Neil's no longer with us; I suspect that he had lots of > amazing stories. > > --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On Sat, Sep 24, 2022 at 3:57 AM Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > Wow someone mentioning à phillips p series > Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals and à > spare core memory pack in safe keeping You don't have the 'production' version of the CPU service manual with the microcode source do you? I only have the pre-release one which says that's to come later :-( Actually, do you mean P854 here? The P854 panel is a keypad with a pair of vacuum fluorescent displays (address and data) controlled by a 8048. The CPU was built from AMD 2900 series chips and included a memory management unit. I've never heard of one with core either. -tony (Who has a P850, P851 and P854 along with manuals and some spare boards)
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
Wow someone mentioning à phillips p series Has a p854 new old stock panel my self along with bunch of manuals and à spare core memory pack in safe keeping On Fri., Sep. 23, 2022, 4:20 a.m. Tony Duell via cctalk, < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 8:42 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Look for less well-known mini computers. > > No, please don't > > If the machine it less well known, it is very likely that many fewer > have survived. As a result ruining one for its front panel is going to > make said machine even harder to find. > > There are many more PDP8e machines around than , say, Philips P850's or > P851's > > > -tony >
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: From an over-the-top perspective as the 360/91 and 360/195 panels were, would it be fair to say that SAGE held first place in this category? Yep! We could even single-step. :-) http://q7.neurotica.com/Q7/ Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
>From an over-the-top perspective as the 360/91 and 360/195 panels were, would it be fair to say that SAGE held first place in this category? --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
Unfortunately there are some collectors who are also resellers so they buy entire lots, keep what they want and sell the rest on eBay at high prices. On 9/23/2022 5:29 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 9/23/22 17:26, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was that a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. That's not the general consensus, at all. There are several HP mini fans on this list, and even more on HP-specific lists. If this was the Gerber-branded model, it wasn't in good shape and the power supply didn't work. I made a cash offer for it, and you wanted three times the amount. That's how this hobby works. Mr. A has WhizBang500. It's old and a little dirty but it works. He thinks it's worth $10,000. Mr. B wants one. But he only thinks it's worth $50. Time passes and eventually Mr. B gets the WhizBan500. He now thinks it's worth $10,000. :-) The only thing worse are the resellers who will pay you $10 bucks for your whole collection and then sell each module for $2000. (yes, I know this from personal experience. it's why I would throw all my stuff in a dumpster before letting a reseller have any of it!!) bill
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> On Sep 23, 2022, at 5:49 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 9/23/22 13:47, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> It was useful as a simple test of whether an applicant had any >> bit-twiddling experience. But, I couldn't think of practical application. >> > > The 6600 implemented it (IIRC) as a tree of 8 bit adders. If you > haven't read Jim Thornton's "Design of a Computer--The CDC 6600", you > owe it to yourself to look it up: > > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/CDC/cdc.6600.thornton.design_of_a_computer_the_control_data_6600.1970.102630394.pdf Roughly that, though it's more refined than that. It starts with 15 4-bit population count circuits. Then those counts are summed in a tree consisting of 8 3-bit adders feeding 4 4-bit adders feeding 2 5-bit adders and finally a single 6-bit adder. There are latches at each stage, clocked 75 ns apart to deliver the result in 400 ns (including overhead into and out of the functional unit). Thornton is nice for a superficial view of the machine, enough for a first impression that's largely accurate. To see the full details, the "Block Diagram" manuals, which can be found on Bitsavers, are amazing resources. For example, while Thornton's famous "barrel" picture is a good conceptual model of the PPU design, the actual details of how the barrel operates are a whole lot more complex than that simple picture suggests. The block diagram spells it all out in full. paul
[cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip
> I think there was a unix/unix-like OS for them, but I imagine context > switching > was slow... There were a couple *nix workstations based on it. The Oki 7300 series comes to mind. I think someone exhibited at that VCF pre-COVID. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- Everything is permissible, but not everything is expedient. -- 1 Cor 6:12 --
[cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip
Hi Emanuel, On 9/23/22 16:30, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: Hi all, anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain which supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days tools/OS's? I've got a PC with an Hauppauge 4860 motherboard. There's a 80486 and a 80860 CPU on the board. I have some things online for this machine on ftp://ftp.groessler.org/pub/chris/i860. I've put it online there long ago. I think the "i860tools-linux.tar.bz2" file could contain a gcc version for i860. But I found no source code for the compiler/toolchain when looking at the contents of this file. I had a gcc version in source code (work-in-progress), created by Jason Eckhardt, at some point in time (in the later 200X time frame). I could try to dig it out. I've also got a DOS version of (I think) the Portland Group C compiler for the i860. regards, chris
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
I think the computers got so fast so that having blinking light wasn’t feasible. They would be on all the time. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 23, 2022, at 16:27, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 9/23/22 11:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Sep 23, 2022, at 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike seem to be movie props only. >>> I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front >>> panels and blinking lights altogether.(e.g. Cray I, CDC >>> Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without >>> help from another system doing the I/O. >> Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one or >> two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much >> "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were >> the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. > > Blinky light front panels went mostly out of style on later machines. The > 360/85 (prototype of the 370/165) went to a scheme with a lamp panel > projected onto a microfiche viewer that combined legends from the fiche with > the lamp image. Turning knobs to select a different fiche page brought up > different signals to the lamps. This was a stark departure from the IBM > Model 195 panel, which was seriously over the top! You needed a road atlas > to even FIND the indicator you wanted to look at! > > The VAX 11/780 had no panel, just four indicators and a key switch. The > console driven by an LSI-11 was pretty powerful, though. The KL10B used a > PDP-11 as the console and to interface non-MassBus peripherals. > > As for the defense maps, they really DID exist. Our university had some bits > of SAGE, and one of the things was the big map projector. The way the thing > worked was a small CRT was projected onto movie film, the film ran through a > developer, and then was projected onto a large screen. I don't know what the > delay for film processing was, but it must have been 30 seconds or so. > > Jon >
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 11:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Sep 23, 2022, at 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike seem to be movie props only. I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front panels and blinking lights altogether.(e.g. Cray I, CDC Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without help from another system doing the I/O. Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. Blinky light front panels went mostly out of style on later machines. The 360/85 (prototype of the 370/165) went to a scheme with a lamp panel projected onto a microfiche viewer that combined legends from the fiche with the lamp image. Turning knobs to select a different fiche page brought up different signals to the lamps. This was a stark departure from the IBM Model 195 panel, which was seriously over the top! You needed a road atlas to even FIND the indicator you wanted to look at! The VAX 11/780 had no panel, just four indicators and a key switch. The console driven by an LSI-11 was pretty powerful, though. The KL10B used a PDP-11 as the console and to interface non-MassBus peripherals. As for the defense maps, they really DID exist. Our university had some bits of SAGE, and one of the things was the big map projector. The way the thing worked was a small CRT was projected onto movie film, the film ran through a developer, and then was projected onto a large screen. I don't know what the delay for film processing was, but it must have been 30 seconds or so. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 17:26, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was that a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. That's not the general consensus, at all. There are several HP mini fans on this list, and even more on HP-specific lists. If this was the Gerber-branded model, it wasn't in good shape and the power supply didn't work. I made a cash offer for it, and you wanted three times the amount. That's how this hobby works. Mr. A has WhizBang500. It's old and a little dirty but it works. He thinks it's worth $10,000. Mr. B wants one. But he only thinks it's worth $50. Time passes and eventually Mr. B gets the WhizBan500. He now thinks it's worth $10,000. :-) The only thing worse are the resellers who will pay you $10 bucks for your whole collection and then sell each module for $2000. (yes, I know this from personal experience. it's why I would throw all my stuff in a dumpster before letting a reseller have any of it!!) bill
[cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip
On Fri, 23 Sept 2022 at 23:57, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I believe (I'll have to check) that in the Osborne-McGraw-Hill/Intel > i860 book there's a quote from BillG saying that Microsoft was committed > to developing for the 860 as a personal computer CPU. > > I think that never happened...it would have been interesting, however. The closest I know of is that the early (late-1980s) versions of what was then OS/2 NT were built on i860 boards, codenamed "Razzle". The Smithsonian has one: https://www.si.edu/object/microsoft-windows-nt-development-board-pcr1-rev1-intel-i860-processor%3Anmah_742558 There are a handful of mentions of them here and there: https://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32510 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20181224-00/?p=100545 The codename of the first version of the i860 was "N-Ten" which is where the "NT" product name originated: https://web.archive.org/web/20110720042038/http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows-server/windows-server-2003-the-road-to-gold-part-one-the-early-years-127432 -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2022 18:09:47 +0100 > From: Joshua Rice via cctalk > The Cray was often coupled witha DG nova for bootstrapping, which very much > did have a front panel on it. Indeed, many models of PDP-10 were bootstrapped > by PDP-11's with front panels, even if the PDP-10 lacked one. The CDC Cyber > however, had "dead start" panels hidden behind shouding, which could be used > in a very similar way to a front panel. Sorry, only 1 model of PDP-10 was bootstrapped by a PDP-11 (specifically an 11/40 running either KLDCP or RSX-20F). That was the KL-10, featured in the DECsystem-1080, DECsystem-1088, DECsystem-1090, DECsystem-1099, DECsystem-1095, DECSYSTEM-2040, DECSYSTEM-2050, DECSYSTEM-2060, and DECSYSTEM-2065. The 1088 and 1099 were multiple-processor configurations of the 1080 and 1090 or 1095, respectively. The 1095/2065 was the same hardware, with the expanded cache and MG-20 memory, with paint color depending on the OS. The KS-10 processor in the DECSYSTEM-2020 (which never had a Dec-10 designation) had an 8080 as the front end processor. The earlier models[1], using the KA-10 or KI-10 processors, had the equivalent of the CDC deadstart switch or IBM IPL button, and a way to enter the address of the I/O device from which to boot on the control panel beneath the large array of blinking lights. Rich [1] For completeness: the KA-10 is used in the PDP-10/30, PDP-10/40, and PDP-10/50 (which oculd be doubled in the PDP-10/55), while the KI-10 is used in the DECsystem-1070 and -1077.
[cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip
> > IIRC the Intel IPSC (Inter Personal Super Computer) put a ton of these in parallel. It ran some kind of Unix and there has to have been a gcc port. https://www.vaxbarn.com/42-repair/756-ipsc-860-repair > > I believe (I'll have to check) that in the Osborne-McGraw-Hill/Intel > i860 book there's a quote from BillG saying that Microsoft was committed > to developing for the 860 as a personal computer CPU. > > I think that never happened...it would have been interesting, however. > > -- -Jon +44 7792 149029
[cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip
On 9/23/22 11:12, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi all, >> anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? >> Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain >> which supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days >> tools/OS's? >> >> Anything? > > I can't help with your quest, however I wish you both luck and the > energy to preserve your old grey cells when dealing with these beasts. > > Back in the day I did some work on the i860. Fascinating chip. Very > capable of doing high speed vector math and multiply + add in a single > cycle. I believe (I'll have to check) that in the Osborne-McGraw-Hill/Intel i860 book there's a quote from BillG saying that Microsoft was committed to developing for the 860 as a personal computer CPU. I think that never happened...it would have been interesting, however. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 13:47, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > It was useful as a simple test of whether an applicant had any > bit-twiddling experience. But, I couldn't think of practical application. > The 6600 implemented it (IIRC) as a tree of 8 bit adders. If you haven't read Jim Thornton's "Design of a Computer--The CDC 6600", you owe it to yourself to look it up: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/CDC/cdc.6600.thornton.design_of_a_computer_the_control_data_6600.1970.102630394.pdf --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 11:41, Paul Koning wrote: > > Another way to get high speed: one of CDC's first disk drives, the 6603, > wrote several bits in parallel. 4 bits? 12? I don't remember, but it made > for a throughput spec that was unbeaten for nearly a decade. I think the 6638 was the controller you may be thinking of; the drive was the 808 (and 821 if you're after arcana). The 6603 was the old Bryant 4000 disk. I've got a head from one (808)--6 channels quite visible. Each head assembly had several heads. 4 spindles with 2 actuators (hydraulic), one on top and the other on the bottom, with the actuator sitting between the spindles, so accessed in a sort of pushme-pullyu arrangemt. Transfers, of course, were 12 bits wide. The 821, which I never saw outside of Special Systems Divison, increased the capacity. It was notoriously unreliable with a tendency to go "not ready" without notice. Otherwise, it was the tall gray cabinet that looked exactly like an 808. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was that a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. That's not the general consensus, at all. There are several HP mini fans on this list, and even more on HP-specific lists. If this was the Gerber-branded model, it wasn't in good shape and the power supply didn't work. I made a cash offer for it, and you wanted three times the amount. Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> On Sep 23, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: >> On the top secret number cruching >> The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' >> asked for by the NSA. >> The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. > > Interesting. > > A friend of my ex was asked to code that (in C) as a test in a job interview. > > It was useful as a simple test of whether an applicant had any bit-twiddling > experience. But, I couldn't think of practical application. As was mentioned, it gives you the Hamming distance between two 60-bit values: BX1 X2-X3 CX1 X1 > Perhaps, some measures of central tendency of values of that in a large body > of data could be useful for testing randomness in cryptography, such as > checking for steganography? A typical test in cryptography would be entropy; another would be Friedman's "Index of coincidence". Both use histograms, so there a population count would not come into play. paul
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, ben via cctalk wrote: Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret number crunching. Ben. In one of my first jobs (a gopher for a british physicist, studying Van Allen belts, in National Space Science Data Center (Bldg 26, GSFC)), we used a 7094, with a 360/30 doing its I/O.
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 2:22 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > There might be some exceptions: a spare RF11 or RC11/RS64 platter merely > > needs to be bolted to the spindle hub and formatted, that's a normal > > field repair procedure. But, say, a platter out of an RP04 pack is > > unlikely ever to be able to serve as anything more than a wall hanging > > or a prop. > > I made a patio table out of a damaged 24" diameter RAMAC platter. > Nice... My old boss made the platter from the crashed RP-03 that we had at work into a clock... Mine is still hanging up in my computer room as a memento from the past... Warner
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: On the top secret number cruching The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' asked for by the NSA. The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. Interesting. A friend of my ex was asked to code that (in C) as a test in a job interview. It was useful as a simple test of whether an applicant had any bit-twiddling experience. But, I couldn't think of practical application. Perhaps, some measures of central tendency of values of that in a large body of data could be useful for testing randomness in cryptography, such as checking for steganography? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
I am quite sure the recipient was very happy to get it. Especially with i/o cards etc.Ed# Sent from the all new AOL app for Android On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 12:19 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was that a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. If things aren't worth anything I will chuck them. No point in keeping junk around. C On 9/23/2022 10:22 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > When was that?
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: There might be some exceptions: a spare RF11 or RC11/RS64 platter merely needs to be bolted to the spindle hub and formatted, that's a normal field repair procedure. But, say, a platter out of an RP04 pack is unlikely ever to be able to serve as anything more than a wall hanging or a prop. I made a patio table out of a damaged 24" diameter RAMAC platter. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
Wish I had seen I would given à home On Fri., Sep. 23, 2022, 2:19 p.m. Chris Zach via cctalk, < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was that > a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. > > If things aren't worth anything I will chuck them. No point in keeping > junk around. > > C > > On 9/23/2022 10:22 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > When was that? >
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
Earlier this spring. I posted about it, and the general opinion was that a HP1000 wasn't really worth anything so I just gave it to someone. If things aren't worth anything I will chuck them. No point in keeping junk around. C On 9/23/2022 10:22 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: When was that?
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 23/09/22 11:21, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: Cray did? I didn't know that. It first appeared in the CDC 6600, and yes, according to rumor at the request of NSA. I can imagine it being used for statistical analysis of character patterns Yep. Pop count is essentially the Hamming Weight, which is a measure of information content and for a hunk of text can serve as a hash to drive further analysis. A non-classified example of its use is in the PLATO system for "fuzzy string matching". PLATO needed to be able to recognize student answers that were correct but misspelled; it would do that, roughly speaking, by taking the difference of the expected string and the actual input and running population count on that. A difference of less than n bits would be defined as a misspelled match. This is a use of Hamming Distance (or a riff on it). XOR two identical length binary strings, a pop count on the result tells you how "far apart" they are. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. ch...@mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB0692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.comPGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
OK, the web is your friend. Looks like it has applications in cryptography, or searching thru text: https://cryptome.org/jya/sadd.htm From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Friday, September 23, 2022 11:28 AM To: Randy Dawson via cctalk Cc: Chuck Guzis Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. On 9/23/22 11:14, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > On the top secret number cruching > > The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' > > asked for by the NSA. > > The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. The CDC 6600 had a dedicated functional unit for this instruction. Wasted a lot of time trying to think up practical uses for it--totting up disk block allocation bitmaps was perhaps the most useful. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> On Sep 23, 2022, at 2:25 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 9/23/22 10:52, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. >> Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret >> number crunching. > > Well, consider the 1969 STAR-100; although not well documented, had a > 512-bit wide, error-checked I/O channel that ran at memory speed. Neil > had various schemes for it, including a 100K RPM head-per-track drum > that ran in vacuo. I recall him mentioning that the prototype lasted > around a minute before the observation window was covered with the > remnants of the drum surface. There is of course the CDC 6000 series ECS and its successors, a bulk memory that does block transfers to/from main memory at full memory speed. Re 100k drum, interesting that someone tried to build that. It might actually work as a disk, with floating heads in low pressure air rather than vacuum. But it reminds me of a computer design course from 1948, where a discussion of memory technologies postulates a drum memory (main memory in that era) described as "8 cm diameter and a few decimeters long" spinning at 60k RPM to deliver an average latency of 50 microseconds. It is perhaps significant Adriaan van Wijngaarden, the author of that document, was a mathematician rather than a mechanical engineer. :-) > Or consider the STAR SCROLL--a very wide tape that ran over a > head-per-track drum. I don't recall seeing that prototype; maybe it > existed only in the mind. But we had to mention both in our responses > to RFQs. Shades of the CDC 626, a one inch wide 14 track tape drive. That was a real product, I think, though I never ran into one. Another way to get high speed: one of CDC's first disk drives, the 6603, wrote several bits in parallel. 4 bits? 12? I don't remember, but it made for a throughput spec that was unbeaten for nearly a decade. paul
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 10:52, ben via cctalk wrote: > Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. > Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret > number crunching. Well, consider the 1969 STAR-100; although not well documented, had a 512-bit wide, error-checked I/O channel that ran at memory speed. Neil had various schemes for it, including a 100K RPM head-per-track drum that ran in vacuo. I recall him mentioning that the prototype lasted around a minute before the observation window was covered with the remnants of the drum surface. Or consider the STAR SCROLL--a very wide tape that ran over a head-per-track drum. I don't recall seeing that prototype; maybe it existed only in the mind. But we had to mention both in our responses to RFQs. This may be before Chris Elmquist's time, but he might also remember. Too bad that Neil's no longer with us; I suspect that he had lots of amazing stories. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 11:14, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > On the top secret number cruching > > The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' > > asked for by the NSA. > > The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. The CDC 6600 had a dedicated functional unit for this instruction. Wasted a lot of time trying to think up practical uses for it--totting up disk block allocation bitmaps was perhaps the most useful. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> On Sep 23, 2022, at 2:14 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk > wrote: > > On the top secret number cruching > > The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' > > asked for by the NSA. > > The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. Cray did? I didn't know that. It first appeared in the CDC 6600, and yes, according to rumor at the request of NSA. I can imagine it being used for statistical analysis of character patterns. A non-classified example of its use is in the PLATO system for "fuzzy string matching". PLATO needed to be able to recognize student answers that were correct but misspelled; it would do that, roughly speaking, by taking the difference of the expected string and the actual input and running population count on that. A difference of less than n bits would be defined as a misspelled match. paul
[cctalk] Re: Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip
On Fri, 23 Sep 2022, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: Hi all, anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain which supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days tools/OS's? Anything? I can't help with your quest, however I wish you both luck and the energy to preserve your old grey cells when dealing with these beasts. Back in the day I did some work on the i860. Fascinating chip. Very capable of doing high speed vector math and multiply + add in a single cycle. As long as you were prepared to sacrifice the old grey cells to it's dual-instruction mode programming. I didn't do anything in C that I recall, all assembler (I was involved mostly in test/diagnostics and low-level accesses - we had them on a shared memory system with Transputers being relegated (by then) to nothing more than "smart" comms chips... (Late 80s) I think we used the Portland Group C and FORTRAN compilers, but even then we had large librarys hand-coded in assembler to achieve that fabled 3 instructions per cycle quote - you have to effectively pump the floating point pipeline by hand so you ran operations that assembled to a 64-bit word which was one 32-bit instructions for the integer unit (say a load from RAM into FPU pipeline) and one for the FPU (say, a multiply and add instruction). So some 8 cycles later you'd actually start to get results out as it took 8 cycles to actually do the multiply and add - however it was one cycle after that - good for vector work, but sub-optimal for a single number multiply. And lets hope you never, ever, have to take an interrupt during an FP operation. It's 100's of cycles to save/restore the pipeline. I think there was a unix/unix-like OS for them, but I imagine context switching was slow... Cheers, Gordon
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 10:38, Paul Koning wrote: > Yes, I was thinking "mainframes" not limited to "supercomputers". Then > again, from what I remember of the one starring in "War Games", the > Connection Machine had oodles of lights. When I first encountered the 7600 MCU, I thought it was a stroke of genius. Other than guessing or probing with a 'scope, one could see what everything was doing--and control much of it. The STAR took this one step further--the MCU there had its own drum (loaded by paper tape) for storage and a display not connected to the operating system. Lots and lots of monitoring and control The I/O station buffer units also had their own drums and CRT displays/keyboards. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:52 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. > Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret > number crunching. > Ben. I'm not sure I understand the question. Floating point numbers are bits in memory, just like any other data. Disk and tape and similar data storage device I/O just moves memory words to/from the device; it doesn't matter what the bit patterns mean. Data interpretation does matter for output to devices like line printers, of course; printing a decimal nummber is different for float vs. integer. paul
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:38 PM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 23/09/22 10:22, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> I view the deadstart panel as a type of boot ROM, different from other boot >> ROMs only in that it's easy to change. It was tied to an I/O channel; the >> deadstart operation would run an I/O read operation on that channel to load >> the initial bits of code. > > It wasn't tied to a channel, it forced the instructions into PP > zero, which in turn interacted with the channel. Yes. I meant the panel is tied to channel 0, and deadstart runs an input from that channel. To be fully precise: The deadstart (master clear) signal forces a particular instruction state into each PP, and it also sets the "deadstart synchronizer" -- the device that connects the deadstart panel to channel zero -- into active state. The PPs then execute the newly set instruction state. Since all other channels are inactive after master clear, PPn for n != 0 would sit there waiting for channel active. PP 0 reads words from the deadstart synchronizer: a zero word followed by the 12 words on the panel, and then the synchronizer disconnects. That ends the IAM instruction and PP 0 resumes at the address pointed to by location 0, which is 0, so the panel contents is executed (preceded by a 0 opcode which is a NOP). paul
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On the top secret number cruching The Cray had an instruction called 'population count' asked for by the NSA. The number of bits on in a word, not sure what this was used for. From: ben via cctalk Sent: Friday, September 23, 2022 10:52 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Cc: ben Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. On 2022-09-23 11:35 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 9/23/22 09:53, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one or >> two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much >> "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were >> the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. > > How many supercomputers were there in the 1960s? I suppose you could > count the 360/195 as a ridiculous example of the opposite approach, but > eventually, even IBM saw the light. > > --Chuck > > Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret number crunching. Ben.
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 2022-09-23 11:35 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 9/23/22 09:53, Paul Koning wrote: Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. How many supercomputers were there in the 1960s? I suppose you could count the 360/195 as a ridiculous example of the opposite approach, but eventually, even IBM saw the light. --Chuck Just how do the supercomputer do i/o for all that floating numbers. Weather maps I can see for output, but what about all that Top Secret number crunching. Ben.
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 23/09/22 10:22, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: I view the deadstart panel as a type of boot ROM, different from other boot ROMs only in that it's easy to change. It was tied to an I/O channel; the deadstart operation would run an I/O read operation on that channel to load the initial bits of code. It wasn't tied to a channel, it forced the instructions into PP zero, which in turn interacted with the channel. Otherwise, I pretty much agree with your original assertion; the 6000 and 7000 series had enough intelligence in the console to not need a traditional front panel; I'm also not sure given the architecture of those machines that things like single step or halt-and-inspect-or-deposit would make a lot of sense -- most of the heavy lifting is done by the virtual PPs with the CPU basically just doing math. The 6000 and 7000 series had a crap-ton of lights, but they show up on the channel controllers. Hardware diagnostics weren't through the lights, but rather through the nine-zillion test points I recall one FE unwedging a channel by applying a shorting plug to a TP. Fun times, fun times. -- Christian Kennedy, Ph.D. ch...@mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB0692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.comPGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 13:38, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 9/23/22 09:53, Paul Koning wrote: Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. How many supercomputers were there in the 1960s? I suppose you could count the 360/195 as a ridiculous example of the opposite approach, but eventually, even IBM saw the light. --Chuck Yes, I was thinking "mainframes" not limited to "supercomputers". Then again, from what I remember of the one starring in "War Games", the Connection Machine had oodles of lights. It's been a long time but I seem to remember that the 1401 had about the same number of lights and switches as an IMSAI. :-) I think the IMSAI was more powerful. bill
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 12:53, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Sep 23, 2022, at 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike seem to be movie props only. I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front panels and blinking lights altogether.(e.g. Cray I, CDC Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without help from another system doing the I/O. Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. Prime 850 had a 4 or 5 position switch and a push button. I think there may have been a power light but I don't remember for sure. bill
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 9/23/22 09:53, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one or >> two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much >> "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were >> the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. > > How many supercomputers were there in the 1960s? I suppose you could > count the 360/195 as a ridiculous example of the opposite approach, but > eventually, even IBM saw the light. > > --Chuck Yes, I was thinking "mainframes" not limited to "supercomputers". Then again, from what I remember of the one starring in "War Games", the Connection Machine had oodles of lights. paul
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 09:09, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Sep 22, 2022, at 10:44 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their man cave or living room wall. These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. Agreed for the most part, with the exception of disk platters. While it might be theoretically possible to repair a disk pack, or disk drive, given a loose platter in good condition, I doubt this is practical. Partly because few if any of us have the precision equipment needed to do this, and partly because loose platters are typically loose because they were wrecked. There might be some exceptions: a spare RF11 or RC11/RS64 platter merely needs to be bolted to the spindle hub and formatted, that's a normal field repair procedure. But, say, a platter out of an RP04 pack is unlikely ever to be able to serve as anything more than a wall hanging or a prop. I have a wall plaque given to me when I left DOIM at USMA. It is made out of a platter from a mainframe hard disk and and the emblem from a Cadet "Tar Bucket" helmet. It still hangs, proudly, on my wall. bill
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 09:53, Paul Koning wrote: > Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one or > two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much > "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were > the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. How many supercomputers were there in the 1960s? I suppose you could count the 360/195 as a ridiculous example of the opposite approach, but eventually, even IBM saw the light. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/23/22 00:49, Teo Zenios via cctalk wrote: I assume some of that stuff was purchased for TV show or movie props. Anyway you can't really complain unless you know the origins of those front panels. Some of that equipment was scrapped a long time ago and somebody found the front panel or other parts cool and kept them. You can't really expect people to keep everything from being made into razor blades 20+ years ago and kept in heated and cooled low humidity storage so somebody down the road could snag it for lunch money. If somebody pays a decent amount of cash to mount something on a wall it will sooner or later end up being resold to a collector so its not really lost in the long view of things. If there is enough demand or it is worth the economics to recreate somebody will 3D print parts and have boards made. -Original Message- From: Tom Hunter via cctalk Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2022 10:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Tom Hunter Subject: [cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel. I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their man cave or living room wall. These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. For some time I have been looking for a PDP-8/e front panel PCB needed to make a machine complete. Until now I had no luck. No doubt there are dozens of these hanging off people's walls. Like Peter I don't care if the PCB is functional, but unlike Peter I can and will repair it. Peter please consider the negative impact of your hobby on historically valuable computer systems. I still have the front panel from a PDP-11/24. It was the first PDP I had and I still miss it. I am sure the guts are still in use as I gave them to someone setting up one of the many private museums. At lest. I hope so. bill
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> On Sep 23, 2022, at 1:09 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > The Cray was often coupled witha DG nova for bootstrapping, which very much > did have a front panel on it. Indeed, many models of PDP-10 were bootstrapped > by PDP-11’s with front panels, even if the PDP-10 lacked one. The CDC Cyber > however, had “dead start” panels hidden behind shouding, which could be used > in a very similar way to a front panel. I view the deadstart panel as a type of boot ROM, different from other boot ROMs only in that it's easy to change. It was tied to an I/O channel; the deadstart operation would run an I/O read operation on that channel to load the initial bits of code. It's definitely not a front panel in the usual sense of a set of controls that are used to interact with the machine while it is running. It only comes into play when you hit the deadstart button to reset the whole machine back to its initial state. paul
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe > one or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both > very much "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For > that matter, so were the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a > bit of an outlier I think. CDC was just an early adopter of the idea that a front panel involving a keyboard and display are more user-friendly and more powerful than a vast number of lights and switches. De
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> On Sep 23, 2022, at 5:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front > panels and blinking lights altogether.(e.g. Cray I, CDC > Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without > help from another system doing the I/O. > > --Chuck > The Cray was often coupled witha DG nova for bootstrapping, which very much did have a front panel on it. Indeed, many models of PDP-10 were bootstrapped by PDP-11’s with front panels, even if the PDP-10 lacked one. The CDC Cyber however, had “dead start” panels hidden behind shouding, which could be used in a very similar way to a front panel. By the mid 70’s and early 80’s, ROM chips had largely replaced front panels, initialising the system and performing boot routines that were otherwise done by front panel. You can see this approach in later PDP-11/s and even PDP-8’s Josh
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> On Sep 23, 2022, at 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. >> World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike >> seem to be movie props only. > I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front > panels and blinking lights altogether.(e.g. Cray I, CDC > Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without > help from another system doing the I/O. Those are good examples, but is it "many" or just those two and maybe one or two more? For example, Burroughs and IBM mainframes were both very much "lights and switches" control panel type machines. For that matter, so were the other CDC products; the 6000 series was a bit of an outlier I think. paul
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: > Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. > World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike > seem to be movie props only. I thought it curious that many 1960s-1970s supercomputers lacked front panels and blinking lights altogether.(e.g. Cray I, CDC Cyber/600/700, etc.) Indeed, the Cray couldn't even spin a tape without help from another system doing the I/O. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
Well, as it turns out I have a full PDP-8/M front panel, including the board, which I *believe* is compatible with an 8/E, but has LED lights instead of incandescent ones (one might have to check to make sure that the pin with the lamp power isn't used on the baord.) [It is a FULL front panel, in spite of what one sees on Doug Jones website.] Looks like this one: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/dec/pdp8m.html It looks like this one - I didn't look closely to see if it had an OEM name at the top. The board is missing two of the paddles, and the knob for the rotary switch. Tom, if you are interested, contact me off list. JRJ On 9/22/2022 9:44 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their man cave or living room wall. These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. For some time I have been looking for a PDP-8/e front panel PCB needed to make a machine complete. Until now I had no luck. No doubt there are dozens of these hanging off people's walls. Like Peter I don't care if the PCB is functional, but unlike Peter I can and will repair it. Peter please consider the negative impact of your hobby on historically valuable computer systems. Tom On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 1:33 AM Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a *Data General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier and I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged and of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay postage/freight. Any offers? Any offers? Peter PS Please don't shout at me!
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
Of course I meant disk platters in working configuration as in disk packs or stacks of platters on a spindle, not loose platers extracted from packs or stacks and converted into coffee tables or wall ornaments.:-) Tom On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 9:09 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Sep 22, 2022, at 10:44 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components > desperately > > sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their > > man cave or living room wall. > > These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk > > platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result > > depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. > > Agreed for the most part, with the exception of disk platters. While it > might be theoretically possible to repair a disk pack, or disk drive, given > a loose platter in good condition, I doubt this is practical. Partly > because few if any of us have the precision equipment needed to do this, > and partly because loose platters are typically loose because they were > wrecked. > > There might be some exceptions: a spare RF11 or RC11/RS64 platter merely > needs to be bolted to the spindle hub and formatted, that's a normal field > repair procedure. But, say, a platter out of an RP04 pack is unlikely ever > to be able to serve as anything more than a wall hanging or a prop. > > paul > >
[cctalk] Intel's i860, Cray-On-A-Chip
Hi all, anybody has some GCC or any other tool chain for the above? Or some pointers, which was the last version of the GCC tool chain which supported the i860, and would be still compile-able on this days tools/OS's? Anything? Thanks in advance!
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
When was that? On Thu., Sep. 22, 2022, 9:04 p.m. Chris Zach via cctalk, < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > True. I wound up giving away an HP1000 with front panel, because no one > wanted it. So they do exist out there... > > C > > > On 9/22/2022 3:42 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Look for less well-known mini computers. > > > > On Thu, Sep 22, 2022, 1:47 PM Joshua Rice via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> It is sacrelege! > >> > >> In all honesty, real front panels are expensive. An 11/40 front panel > sold > >> recently on eBay for $2000! (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314122754771 < > >> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314122754771>) > >> > >> They’re also hard to come by, and most that have them are going to be > very > >> reluctant to part with them. > >> > >> I suggest, if you want a display piece, the very good replicas done by > >> Oscar Vermeulen. He offers both a PDP-11 and PDP-8 replica kit, powered > by > >> a Rasberry Pi and the SimH emulator. He is also working on a PDP-10 > replica > >> as well. > >> > >> These are reasonably priced, and very good quality, working, scaled > >> replicas of their respective systems. ( > >> https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 < > >> https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11>) > >> > >> It’s worth noting that other replica front panel systems are available > as > >> well, including, but not limited to the Altairduino 8080 > >> > >>> On Sep 22, 2022, at 6:05 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk < > >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> I know this is sacrilege but I am looking for the front panel of a > *Data > >>> General Nova *and/or *a DEC PDP 8/11/12/15*. > >>> Why? I collect artefacts from the days of the minicomputer and earlier > >> and > >>> I want them for my collection/display. They should be not too damaged > and > >>> of course do not need to be functional. I would be willing to pay > >>> postage/freight. > >>> Any offers? Any offers? > >>> Peter > >>> > >>> PS Please don't shout at me! > >> > >> >
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
> On Sep 22, 2022, at 10:44 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk > wrote: > > I cannot understand the mindset of people who buy up components desperately > sought by others who want to restore machines just to nail them to their > man cave or living room wall. > These same types of people vacuum up core memory boards, keyboards, disk > platters, 9-track tapes, etc just for bragging rights and as a result > depriving those who restore and preserve computer systems from doing so. Agreed for the most part, with the exception of disk platters. While it might be theoretically possible to repair a disk pack, or disk drive, given a loose platter in good condition, I doubt this is practical. Partly because few if any of us have the precision equipment needed to do this, and partly because loose platters are typically loose because they were wrecked. There might be some exceptions: a spare RF11 or RC11/RS64 platter merely needs to be bolted to the spindle hub and formatted, that's a normal field repair procedure. But, say, a platter out of an RP04 pack is unlikely ever to be able to serve as anything more than a wall hanging or a prop. paul
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
Speaking of orphan front panels... Anyone have an unwanted PDP 8/s front lights PCB? I have a machine in my restoration queue, almost complete except for that PCB. Presumably someone once took the board out to replace some blown light bulbs, then gave up and never replaced it. Lazy bugger. At least I have another PDP 8/s _with_ that PCB, so if necessary I can replicate it. Preferably with LEDs, if I could think of a simple way to make them act as if they had the slow thermal inertia of a filament. Neither machine has the rack slide rails with tilt and lock pivots. :( Guy
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 8:42 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Look for less well-known mini computers. No, please don't If the machine it less well known, it is very likely that many fewer have survived. As a result ruining one for its front panel is going to make said machine even harder to find. There are many more PDP8e machines around than , say, Philips P850's or P851's -tony
[cctalk] Re: Minicomputer front panel.
On 9/22/22 22:56, ben via cctalk wrote: On 2022-09-22 11:30 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 9/22/22 21:49, Teo Zenios via cctalk wrote: I assume some of that stuff was purchased for TV show or movie props. I recall all of the IBM 1620 front panels in "The Forbin Project", along with CDC 3000 series (green glass) cabinets. In fact, I recently pointed out to James at starringthecomputer the inexplicable presence of three CDC 607 tape drives visible from the opeating room in the pilot of "Emergency". Only visible for a few seconds, but there they were. I suspect that the innards of those drives had been stripped out and simply made to spin the tapes. --Chuck Tape drives tended to show powerful modern computers. Blinking lights tended to be for computers of the future. World maps with lights where nuclear missiles could strike seem to be movie props only. Ben. I implemented a system monitoring setup when I worked at Microdata to count instructions executed. We were able to log to a 1600 BPI 45 ips drive and keep up without much compression, just some tricky encoding, large record sizes to optimize the tape motion, and the fact the machines we shipped didn't really execute macro instructions at any high rate. Anyway when I first got it going, I was able to play for a while before signing off it was working. The system being monitored had 32 terminal ports, and was an interactive Pick system (Reality was Microdata's version). When I would do a command of some small length, the tape would spin then stop. Quite satisfying to have it working that way, and the spinning movie and TV tape drives were the first to come to mind. As to implementation, the target system had a modified firmware in it to send out information and a ready pulse to the recording system. There was a program to monitor the parallel interface (64 bits wide) and dump the information into the tape buffer. Some pretty simple code to keep track of the ping pong, and when a buffer swap took place, the trick was there was very little to initiating the I/O for the hardware. Both systems were pulled off of the production line so were twin new production systems. But watching it run various benchmarks later and see the drive spinning was really fun. Thanks Jim
