[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, jim stephens wrote: I've never heard of anyone making 8" Flippy Diskettes. BASF had the FlexyDisk 2N. They are intented for single-sided drives and can be flipped. They have two index hole cutouts. Christian
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Sun, 4 Sep 2022, dwight via cctalk wrote: When punching holes in the envelope I've always had a piece of thin cardboard between the back of the punch and the disk. I've never had a problem this way. I damaged a disk once with the punch and the lesson was learned. You just cut the cardboard to slip conveniently in the center hole, between the disk and the envelope. Dwight I found an ordinary handheld hole punch from stationery stores, that had a piece of clear blue plastic covering the lower jaw, that caught any loose Chad. I didn't damage any 5.25" nor 8" disks using that. But, obviously I still could have. I supplied those with the Flip-Jig. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com OB_Irrelevant: "No matter how much you 'push the envelope', it's still stationery." and"They hung Chad for messing with an election"
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
When punching holes in the envelope I've always had a piece of thin cardboard between the back of the punch and the disk. I've never had a problem this way. I damaged a disk once with the punch and the lesson was learned. You just cut the cardboard to slip conveniently in the center hole, between the disk and the envelope. Dwight From: Mike Stein via cctalk Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2022 7:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Mike Stein Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Flipping disks to use both sides in a single-side drive was really only feasible in Commodore and similar drives that did not rely on an index hole for locating the data on the disk; the notch was to allow writing to the disk and had to be added on the opposite edge. To use a flipped 5 1/4" disk in any other drive requires punching holes for the index sensor in the opposite location, as well as the write (un)protect notch; this can be tricky and it's easy to damage the actual 'cookie' unless you remove it first. All 8" drives use an index hole and also require punching corresponding index holes but, as Jonathan points out, it's a little more complicated because the original location of the hole is different depending on whether the disk is single- or double-sided . On the other hand, you don't have to add a notch on an 8" drive unless you want to write-protect it; the notch acts the reverse of the 5 1/4" notch, i.e. notch=protect, no notch=write enabled. Finally, there's the issue of the medium itself; if you're flipping single-sided disks the early 8" disks are more likely to have flaws on the unused side than the later 5 1/4" diskettes. m On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 4:10 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. > > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > > Was that even possible on 8" disks? > > (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I > never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home > computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives > at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and > cheapest media.) > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) > 702-829-053 >
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
Flipping disks to use both sides in a single-side drive was really only feasible in Commodore and similar drives that did not rely on an index hole for locating the data on the disk; the notch was to allow writing to the disk and had to be added on the opposite edge. To use a flipped 5 1/4" disk in any other drive requires punching holes for the index sensor in the opposite location, as well as the write (un)protect notch; this can be tricky and it's easy to damage the actual 'cookie' unless you remove it first. All 8" drives use an index hole and also require punching corresponding index holes but, as Jonathan points out, it's a little more complicated because the original location of the hole is different depending on whether the disk is single- or double-sided . On the other hand, you don't have to add a notch on an 8" drive unless you want to write-protect it; the notch acts the reverse of the 5 1/4" notch, i.e. notch=protect, no notch=write enabled. Finally, there's the issue of the medium itself; if you're flipping single-sided disks the early 8" disks are more likely to have flaws on the unused side than the later 5 1/4" diskettes. m On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 4:10 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. > > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > > Was that even possible on 8" disks? > > (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I > never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home > computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives > at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and > cheapest media.) > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) > 702-829-053 >
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, David Barto via cctalk wrote: If you have a SS/SD drive then yes, punching a notch in the sleeve would allow you to flip the disk over and use the other side. I’ve done this in the (very) distant past. Most drives these days are DS and can R/W the SD disks without issue, so I wouldn’t expect it to be necessary. Not quite. There were TWO issues. 1) many companies distributing pre-written disks for distributing software did so on "No-Notch" disks that DID NOT HAVE a write enable notch! (They used a modified drive to do so (such as jumper on 455 drive). That was a disk with content that "can't be altered". I once had a customer complain that the disk that I sent him "HAS A VIRUS!". When I got it back from him, I found that he had punched a write enable notch. But, I also got in touch with the customer with the disk written prior to his, and the customer with the disk following his, and confirmed that neither of those had a virus, and still were no-notch disks. That solidified my decision to use no-notch disks! Even if there is a mass mailing of such disks, they can't be written and repurposed for other use without a modified drive, or punching a write enable notch. The notch doesn't have to be square, so any old hole punch, or Swiss Army Knife scissors, can be used. 2) If you have a SS disk, and a SS drive (SD, DD, HD, GCR are IRRELEVANT), and want to use the OTHER side of the disk (a "flippy"), then you will need a symmetrical second write enable notch. AND, if you use a system that uses the index pulse (MOST systems other than Apple and Commodore) , then you will ALSO need to add symmetrical index hole access holes. TRS80 was SS SD. PC/5150 was SS DD., until PC-DOS 1.10/MS-DOS 1.25, when it went to DS DD. (The "Berkeley Microcomputer Flip Jig" was for marking the positions for those holes.) On 8" disks/drives, write enable is by covering over the write protect notch, if somebody has punched one. But, as Chuck mentioned, that needs to be with TRULY opaque tape. And, if anybody from Bill Gates' "Computer Bowl" team is here, that write enable notch was on the leading (first into the drive) edge of the disk. If it is a SS disk, and a SS drive, then you will need to add symmetric index hole access holes. If it is a SS disk, and a DS drive that does not also have SS index hole sensors, then you will need to add DS index hole access holes. (The "Eight Inch Berkeley Microcomputer Flip Jig" was for marking EITHER set of index hole access holes) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
For a flippy 8” disk you don’t need to punch a notch as the write control is opposite of the 5.25. No notch is read-write. You will need to punch a new index hole in both sides of the jacket though. Pete > On Sep 1, 2022, at 4:10 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. > > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > > Was that even possible on 8" disks? > > (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I > never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home > computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives > at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and > cheapest media.) > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
> On Sep 1, 2022, at 4:10 AM, jim stephens via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in >> their garage. >> >> Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. >> >> Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. >> >> Was that even possible on 8" disks? >> >> (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I >> never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home >> computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives >> at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and >> cheapest media.) >> > It would be possible but for the drives mostly being double sided. > The most useful thing for a notcher was to make AOL and other > mailer diskettes writable. Never did the double side thing > much if ever. > > Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make > coasters or trash them. > thanks > Jim > If you have a SS/SD drive then yes, punching a notch in the sleeve would allow you to flip the disk over and use the other side. I’ve done this in the (very) distant past. Most drives these days are DS and can R/W the SD disks without issue, so I wouldn’t expect it to be necessary. David
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Thu, 1 Sept 2022 at 16:36, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Are they IBM preformatted? If so they could work in someone's RX01/RX02. Doesn't say so on the box. Thanks for all the info and clarification, folks! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
-- Original Message -- From: "Fred Cisin via cctalk" To: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" Cc: "Fred Cisin" Sent: Friday, 2 Sep, 2022 At 01:45 Subject: [cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette Didn't HP continue to say "disc"? MOST switched to "disk". HOWEVER, the strong influence of Philips on compact disc meant that CD and DVD became "disc". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com This is no way a standardised thing. But generally i call a "disc" in a case (of some sort) a "disk", IE hard drives, floppy disks, CD's in caddies. And a bare media as a "disc" Josh
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
How do they handle the issue of how the drive knows whether it is SS, DS, or SS flippy? Or is it assumed that that problem is for the host FDC? (some DS drives had both SS and DS index sensors, so that they could read SS in the DS drive, and such a drive is going to see TWO index pulses with this disk!) On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: The typical response from the manufacturer is to first blame the user, and if that's ruled out, blame the hardware (or vice versa). If both issues are ruled out, they theny hang up the phone or disconnect the chat, and let the user call back only to receive another tech who will repeat the process. Well, I was speculating about possible engineering solutions, rather than assignment of blame :-) Tech support can handle THAT. Obviously, it can be left to the user to mask off any extraneous index holes. Usually, the OS has its own ways to identify what's there, such as a "MEDIA ID BYTE" or a data structure (DPB) at a fixed location that will be accessible disunirregardless of which format it is. Another way is obviously to do a read from first side. Current approach is sorta for the OS to check any return codes from the FDC, and display a message from a table. If it falls through the decision tree, then say "GENERAL FAILURE" (top brass in 'Nam?) But, the OS can try a read of the second side. If the first side seems readable but the second side isn't, then assume SS. Try an FM read; try an MFM read; try a read at each data transfer rate. When you achieve success, assume that that's the format. When I was publishing my Honda book, I had some battles with the publisher's editor about whether Honda had "disc brakes" or "disk brakes". (also battles about Oxford comma (they claimed that that was archaic!), and whether to say, "till", "til", "'til", or "until". (the comma after "'til" is the "Oxford comma")) The "Oxford comma" is basically optional in modern writing, but in some specific cases it makes sense to use it for clarity. However, in law (specifically contracts) it's imperative. I can't remember the specific case, but within the last couple of years I remember reading about one where the lack of the comma meant the court agreed with the workers over the company and ruled they were entitled to overtime pay. There are some situations where it is critical for unambiguity. More often than not, the Oxford comma reduces ambiguity. I USE IT. But, it is possible to come up with some [relatively rare] examples where it increases ambiguity. The publisher's editor had an impressive ability to read a passage, and come up with a wrong interpretation of it. THAT was very useful, since once I could rewrite so that he was UNABLE to misinterpret, I could be reasonably confident that the reader couldn't. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 5:45 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > How do they handle the issue of how the drive knows whether it is SS, DS, > or SS flippy? Or is it assumed that that problem is for the host FDC? > (some DS drives had both SS and DS index sensors, so that they could read > SS in the DS drive, and such a drive is going to see TWO index pulses with > this disk!) > The typical response from the manufacturer is to first blame the user, and if that's ruled out, blame the hardware (or vice versa). If both issues are ruled out, they theny hang up the phone or disconnect the chat, and let the user call back only to receive another tech who will repeat the process. When I was publishing my Honda book, I had some battles with the > publisher's editor about whether Honda had "disc brakes" or "disk brakes". > (also battles about Oxford comma (they claimed that that was archaic!), > and whether to say, "till", "til", "'til", or "until". (the comma after > "'til" is the "Oxford comma")) > The "Oxford comma" is basically optional in modern writing, but in some specific cases it makes sense to use it for clarity. However, in law (specifically contracts) it's imperative. I can't remember the specific case, but within the last couple of years I remember reading about one where the lack of the comma meant the court agreed with the workers over the company and ruled they were entitled to overtime pay. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On 9/1/22 19:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > But, how about a WD TRACK READ with the index pulse masked? Well, okay, but I never found that to be very useful, because to achieve correct byte alignment, you need one of the standard address marks to get the data separator working right, which few HS recording schemes employ. That's not to say that it can't be done, but it's a lot of trouble, particularly for MFM encoding. There's also the dodge on PCs of using two drives--one with a standard formatted soft-sector floppy to start a "read track with a very large sector length code" operation and changing the drive select to the second drive while the read's in progress. The "Read Track" feature is useful for recovering data from regular soft-sectored IBM System/3 or 3740-type floppies, however. All in all, a cheap MCU is easier--and cheaper, I think. Consider a little STM32F405 MicroPython board--it runs at 168MHz, timers that can capture pulses at 84 MHz and has about 192KB of fast SRAM inside. Cost is around $11-15 and includes MicroSD and USB interfaces. Similarly, you can get an Option Board working on index-less or hard-sectored floppies by using a cheap MCU to either generate or mask index pulses. You can even use the same MCU to simulate index pulses for equipment requiring hard-sectored floppies. A little 8-pin <$1 MCU is more than adequate for the job. Silicon has gotten so cheap! --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
> It turns out that some 8" drives can be set to separate the sector holes > from the index hole (separate output pins for index and sector). Doing > so, gives you what amounts to a soft-sectored floppy, regardless of what > the physical object is. The flippy 8" diskette I linked a picture of this morning was written that way. Took me a little time to figure out. Part of a massive lot of diskettes all done like that. I'm guessing the original owner either worked for Varityper at some point, or knew someone who did, and was able to acquire a huge quantity of hard sector diskettes cheaply. > I know that I used a Siemens FDD-200 drive jumpered accordingly to read them. Shugart SA-801 (or 800 with the LSI chip and 801 jumper closed) will also do it! Thanks, Jonathan
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On 9/1/22 18:43, Mike Katz wrote: Taking my memory back to the early 1980's and the Western Digital floppy disk controller chip family (177X single density and 179X double density). I wrote the 6809 drivers for Gimix Flex. The controller chip used the index pulse for sector zero position and for timing out a failed read or write command. I don't recall if that controller chip family could handle hard sectoring (one hole per sector) or not. On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: All WD and NEC floppy controllers use the index hole for formatting as Fred mentioned. Further, I believe that three passes of the index hole while attempting to read or write gets you "Sector not found" if the address ID isn't detected. See datasheet and app notes for details. OB_Obscure stuff: At least some of the Teac 5.25" FD55-x series drives ALSO used the index pulse for determining "drive ready". If you mask off the index hole with a write protect tab, then those drives will give DRIVE NOT READY. So, on THOSE drives, masking off index pulse (for disks (such as come Cromemco) with first sector too soon after index, etc.) should be done by interrupting that pin of the cable, or modifying the FDC controller board. (ANY masking of the index pulse will "corrupt" the FDC's guesses of what an error is) On a bet, . . . we noticed that the Central Point Option Board software could not work without index pulse. You CAN modify a drive to index off of the spindle, without an index hole. FLIP a hard sectored floppy, and format it with indexing off of the spindle. THAT disk can now be read and/or written. But, the Central Point board software can't handle it. Punching an index hole access hole in that flippy won't help, because the disk is hard sectored. Thus, a disk whose content canbe copied with COPY or DISKCOPY, but not with the Option Board (with supplied software). No WD or NEC floppy controller handles hard-sectored recording schemes. But, how about a WD TRACK READ with the index pulse masked? HOWEVER: A few years back, I was sent a bunch of 8" HS disks that were really puzzling--the sector ID address headers didn't line up with the sector hole timing. In fact, they were WAY off. It turns out that some 8" drives can be set to separate the sector holes from the index hole (separate output pins for index and sector). Doing so, gives you what amounts to a soft-sectored floppy, regardless of what the physical object is. I know that I used a Siemens FDD-200 drive jumpered accordingly to read them. Good times. --Chuck COOL!
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On 9/1/22 18:43, Mike Katz wrote: > Taking my memory back to the early 1980's and the Western Digital floppy > disk controller chip family (177X single density and 179X double > density). I wrote the 6809 drivers for Gimix Flex. The controller chip > used the index pulse for sector zero position and for timing out a > failed read or write command. I don't recall if that controller chip > family could handle hard sectoring (one hole per sector) or not. All WD and NEC floppy controllers use the index hole for formatting as Fred mentioned. Further, I believe that three passes of the index hole while attempting to read or write gets you "Sector not found" if the address ID isn't detected. See datasheet and app notes for details. No WD or NEC floppy controller handles hard-sectored recording schemes. HOWEVER: A few years back, I was sent a bunch of 8" HS disks that were really puzzling--the sector ID address headers didn't line up with the sector hole timing. In fact, they were WAY off. It turns out that some 8" drives can be set to separate the sector holes from the index hole (separate output pins for index and sector). Doing so, gives you what amounts to a soft-sectored floppy, regardless of what the physical object is. I know that I used a Siemens FDD-200 drive jumpered accordingly to read them. Good times. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On 9/1/22 17:45, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How do they handle the issue of how the drive knows whether it is SS, > DS, or SS flippy? Or is it assumed that that problem is for the host FDC? > (some DS drives had both SS and DS index sensors, so that they could > read SS in the DS drive, and such a drive is going to see TWO index > pulses with this disk!) I think I was using a Qume 842 to read the disk and it turned out to be double-sided, so there was no problem reading it. The disk itself probably arrived here 30 years ago, so my memory may be faulty. This isn't the first floppy I've seen with both SS and DS holes, however. I recall that using a write-enable sticky over the appropriate index aperture resolved the problem of side-edness. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I'm sitting here with a customer's 8" floppy in front of me. The manufacturer's label is simply "Diskette" on both front and back with the usual "Diskette No." legend and "Side 1" or "Side 2" respectively. The curious thing is that this disk is not only a "flippy", but has a *third* index aperture punched for double-sided applications. The holes are accurately placed without any sign of being post-purchase additions. Call it a transitional example. How do they handle the issue of how the drive knows whether it is SS, DS, or SS flippy? Or is it assumed that that problem is for the host FDC? (some DS drives had both SS and DS index sensors, so that they could read SS in the DS drive, and such a drive is going to see TWO index pulses with this disk!) Memorex started off by calling theirs "Flexible Disc" (note the spelling). A bit later Memorex used the "Markette" labeling before giving in with the crowd and calling them "Diskettes" and "Disks". Didn't HP continue to say "disc"? MOST switched to "disk". HOWEVER, the strong influence of Philips on compact disc meant that CD and DVD became "disc". When I was publishing my Honda book, I had some battles with the publisher's editor about whether Honda had "disc brakes" or "disk brakes". (also battles about Oxford comma (they claimed that that was archaic!), and whether to say, "till", "til", "'til", or "until". (the comma after "'til" is the "Oxford comma")) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
I'm sitting here with a customer's 8" floppy in front of me. The manufacturer's label is simply "Diskette" on both front and back with the usual "Diskette No." legend and "Side 1" or "Side 2" respectively. The curious thing is that this disk is not only a "flippy", but has a *third* index aperture punched for double-sided applications. The holes are accurately placed without any sign of being post-purchase additions. Call it a transitional example. Memorex started off by calling theirs "Flexible Disc" (note the spelling). A bit later Memorex used the "Markette" labeling before giving in with the crowd and calling them "Diskettes" and "Disks". --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
This is because, like Apple ][ drives, they used GCR encoding and looked
for sync bytes on the disk rather than implementing additional hardware to
look for the index hole.
Sellam
Well, it's not really just the GCR that does that.
On the IBM/WD style FM/MFM formats (calling them "IBM format" creates lots
of confusion for people who don't know about anything before the IBM
PC/5150, and think that "IBM format" means "PC format"), the index hole is
used to mark where the track starts, and is necessary for formatting.
Once the disk is formatted, reading and writing can be done without it.
IF'n you were to format a disk without it (indexing off of the spindle, or
custom formatting software that starts a track wherever it happens to be,
such as the AppleII (which also used GCR instead of FM/MFM)), then the
disk would still be mostly usable.
The index hole/pulse is also used by some drives, to tell whether the disk
is turning, and or has turned too many times without a successful read, .
. .
And, the NEC 765 type controllers can't read ANYTHING for a short time
after the index pulse ("flash blindness") SOME computers using WD MFM
controllers start the first sector too soon after the index pulse for the
765 controllers to handle. Masking the index pulse (in the cable, board,
or write-protect tab over the index hole access hole) can sometimes work
around that.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make coasters or trash them. On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: My wife and our neighbor use them as reflectors to scare birds away from her garden. We finally ran out of the AOL CDs and are now working on my backlog of MSDN CDs. I keep them stacked on a 1/2" wooden dowel, and still have a roughly 4' high stack. That should last us for a few years. I made a pizza cutter out of one. It worked about as well as a pizza cutter as AOHell worked for online access. No idea what to do with the stacks of others.
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in their garage. Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. About 3 decades ago, my assistant (Bob Fink) came up with an advertising campaign for XenoCopy of "Save your data from extinction!" As part of that, for our Comdex and Computer Faire booths, he got a 5 foot inflatable toy Tyrannasaurus Rex, and had it holding an 8" disk, with a bite out of it. (The disk already had damage). At the Computer Faire (San Francisco), a small kid (6 to 10 years old?) came up to him and loudly declared, "That's not real!" Bob replied, "Well, of course not, it's just an inflatable toy. They won't let us bring any real dinosaurs into the exhibit hall." "Not that. There aren't any disks that size." Bob tried to explain. (No, he did not mention bar napkins :-) "Yeah. right." That kid is probably on Facebook, and still might not believe in 8" disks.. As to "flipping" those disks, . . . there are probably a lot of people who would buy an unopened box of 8" SSSD. The ones that I took to VCF a decade ago, sold fast. What brand are they? (Dysan is preferred over Wabash :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Wed, 31 Aug 2022, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in
their garage.
Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course.
Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides.
Was that even possible on 8" disks?
Both 5.25" and 8" disks have a "cookie" that is coated on both sides
("single sided" disks only gurantee the quality of one side)
BUT, it defintiely won't be a NOTCH!
The children of the "bar napkin disk" (a well refuted origin myth) age
were accustomed to being able to punch an extra WRITE-ENABLE notch in
5.25" diskettes to flip them over for Apple and Commodore, as the write
enable notch was the only disk non-symmetry for THOSE machines. Other
5.25" machines, such as TRS80, hard sectored machines, 5150, etc. ALSO
needed index holes punched in the jacket to complete their symmetry.
("Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" for marking the location was my first
retail porduct; "PLUS" model also aligned center hole reinforcers).
8" disks used a Write PROTECT notch. adding a notch was to PREVENT them
being writeable! SO, no notch punching required for flipping them.
So, the FB kids should definitely punch a notch to keep them out of
trouble :-)
BUT, depending on the DRIVE, additional index holes may (or may NOT!) be
needed.
Single sided 8" drives could flip disks if the disk jackets were punched
with symmetrical index holes.
("EIGHT INCH Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" (very rare) could mark those
locations)
Double sided 8" had the index hole in a different location than the
Single sided disks!
Single sided 8" disks could be converted into double sided 8" disks by
adding index holes in the correct locations.
("EIGHT INCH Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig" (very rare) could mark those
locations)
But, some double sided drives had TWO index hole sensors (light and
photocell). THOSE drives could use single OR double sided disks!
WITHOUT any extra holes! (and might be CONFUSED by a disk that had both
SS and DS holes)
OB_IRRELEVANT: On the "Computer Bowl" quiz show, Bill Gates' team was
unable to answer a question of "WHERE is the write enable notch on an 8"
disk?" !! Kids. keep 'em offa my lawn!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
This is because, like Apple ][ drives, they used GCR encoding and looked for sync bytes on the disk rather than implementing additional hardware to look for the index hole. Sellam On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 10:08 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > > > On 01/09/2022 14:31, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: > >> On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side > >> worked due to 2 factors: > >> > >> First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it > >> didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the > >> diskette was flipped over. > > > > It's my experience that the index hole is used, and does matter, on > pretty > > much all 5.25" systems except Apple ][s. > > Commodore drives didn't use it either. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! >
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
Here's a photo of a stock Memorex 8" "flippy". Un-modified--this is the way they were sold. --Chuck https://i.imgur.com/3VnrazS.jpg
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
And commodore 154x drives. On September 1, 2022 12:39:02 PM EDT, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >On 01/09/2022 14:31, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: >> On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side >> worked due to 2 factors: >> >> First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it >> didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the >> diskette was flipped over. > >It's my experience that the index hole is used, and does matter, on pretty >much all 5.25" systems except Apple ][s. > >-- >Pete >Pete Turnbull -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Thu, 1 Sep 2022, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: On 01/09/2022 14:31, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side worked due to 2 factors: First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the diskette was flipped over. It's my experience that the index hole is used, and does matter, on pretty much all 5.25" systems except Apple ][s. Commodore drives didn't use it either. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Thu, Sep 01, 2022 at 08:20:21AM -0500, Mike Katz wrote: > I've never heard of anyone making 8" Flippy Diskettes. > I did it in high school. Poor job with a hand punch but worked. I also have a box of 3M disks that are officially flippy. They came punched to be able to use both sides. Label says SS, SD, R.
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On 01/09/2022 14:31, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side worked due to 2 factors: First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the diskette was flipped over. It's my experience that the index hole is used, and does matter, on pretty much all 5.25" systems except Apple ][s. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > > Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. > > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > > Was that even possible on 8" disks? > > (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I > never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home > computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives > at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and > cheapest media.) 8" "Flippies" were manufactured pretty early on in the 1970s. I have several of them--they have a label on each side and two index apertures in the jacket. If anyone's curious, I can post a photo of one (imgur or the like) --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
jim stephens wrote: > Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make > coasters or trash them. My wife and our neighbor use them as reflectors to scare birds away from her garden. We finally ran out of the AOL CDs and are now working on my backlog of MSDN CDs. I keep them stacked on a 1/2" wooden dowel, and still have a roughly 4' high stack. That should last us for a few years. Alan Frisbie
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
> BTW, the greaseweazle can format RX01 format diskettes quite nicely. Any PC that can do single-density can (with ImageDisk or similar), as well as basically all CP/M boxes with 8" drives. That's how I format new RX01 media. RX01 can of course be up-converted to RX02 format with XXDP. Thanks, Jonathan
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
I just happen to have 2 RX02's hungry for diskettes BTW, the greaseweazle can format RX01 format diskettes quite nicely. On 9/1/2022 9:36 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Are they IBM preformatted? If so they could work in someone's RX01/RX02. C On 9/1/2022 7:10 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in their garage. Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. Was that even possible on 8" disks? (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and cheapest media.) It would be possible but for the drives mostly being double sided. The most useful thing for a notcher was to make AOL and other mailer diskettes writable. Never did the double side thing much if ever. Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make coasters or trash them. thanks Jim
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
Are they IBM preformatted? If so they could work in someone's RX01/RX02. C On 9/1/2022 7:10 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in their garage. Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. Was that even possible on 8" disks? (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and cheapest media.) It would be possible but for the drives mostly being double sided. The most useful thing for a notcher was to make AOL and other mailer diskettes writable. Never did the double side thing much if ever. Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make coasters or trash them. thanks Jim
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On Thu, Sep 1, 2022 at 4:10 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in > their garage. > > Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > > Was that even possible on 8" disks? > On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side worked due to 2 factors: First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the diskette was flipped over. Second, on 5.25" diskettes the notch is a write-enable notch, and the absence of a notch (or a sticker covering it) was taken to mean that the diskette was write-protected. So the notch was required to make use of the other side unless you defeated the write protect sensor some other way. Typical 8" systems differed in that the index hole was commonly used, meaning that you needed to punch holes in the front and back of the jacket to allow the index sensor to work properly (and you had to do this without accidentally punching any extra holes in the media inside the jacket). But you didn't need to punch a 'write enable' notch to make use of the second side because on an 8" diskette the presence of a notch indicates the diskette is write-protected. If you want to write on an 8" diskette with a notch you need to cover the notch with a sticker. This is exactly the opposite of how the notch works on 5.25" diskettes. -ken
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
> Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. > Was that even possible on 8" disks? Sure, but you have to punch an offset index hole: https://imgur.com/a/6vdR6NE That's a single-sided flippy 8" diskette (it's also hard-sector but that's not really relevant). 8" diskettes have different positions for the index sensor window depending on whether it's single or double sided.In the above pictures, the rightmost hole is the original index window. If it were a factory double-sided diskette (for use in drives with two heads), that index window would be further to the right. Thanks, Jonathan
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
I've never heard of anyone making 8" Flippy Diskettes. There were many "notchers" to make flippy 5 1/4" diskettes and even a drive or two that were designed to "flip" the disk. The problem with "flipping" as diskette is that both the write protect notch AND the index/sector hole had to be flipped. There were many singled sided single or double density 8" systems around that were at least loosely based on the IBM 3740 format. For example the DEC RX01/RX02 were single sided single density (RX01) or Singled Sides Double Density (RX02, double density data only). Due to the high cost of 8" Floppy Diskette subsystems back in those days, and the fact the 5 1/4" drives were so much less expensive I don't know how much of the hobbyist community had 8" floppy systems. On 9/1/2022 6:10 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in their garage. Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. Was that even possible on 8" disks? (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and cheapest media.) It would be possible but for the drives mostly being double sided. The most useful thing for a notcher was to make AOL and other mailer diskettes writable. Never did the double side thing much if ever. Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make coasters or trash them. thanks Jim
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On 8/31/22 13:33, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Someone on Fesse Bouc just found a sealed box of SS/SD 8" floppies in their garage. Most FB types are too young to know 8" disks existed, of course. Someone suggested punching a notch in them and using both sides. Was that even possible on 8" disks? (TBH single-sided actually-floppy floppies are before my time and I never used 'em. When they were on low-end American 8-bit home computers, this impecunious young Brit couldn't afford floppy drives at all. By the time I could, 5.25" DS/DD was the cheapest drive and cheapest media.) It would be possible but for the drives mostly being double sided. The most useful thing for a notcher was to make AOL and other mailer diskettes writable. Never did the double side thing much if ever. Sad day when AOL changed to CDs and you then had to make coasters or trash them. thanks Jim
