Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Jim Stephens

> The fellow responded and as I had suspected had never seen anything
> this old before and had thought that the parts were separable.
> ...
> Also he is going to hopefully share photos of the entire pile and I'll
> try to help him market the parts in the most profitable way for him.

This is good to hear.

If he doesn't know about not trashing backplanes, etc (since most people save
the boards, and trash everything else), please let him know about that too.

I just lucked into a DH11 backplane, w/out boards. The boards are, however,
easy to find on eBay, due to people following the 'save the boards' method...

Noel

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk
 wrote:
>> KDJ11-D (M7554) aka PDP-11/53  "All you need to add is a hard drive 
>> controller."
>>
>> See: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/kdj11.htm
>
> Yeah, a DECserver 500 or 550 version of an M7554 is usually the least
> expensive version to find. Here are some asking $175.00 or make an
> offer.

Glad I got one a while back...

> I picked up a couple of the DECserver 550 version (1.5MB RAM instead
> of 512KB) for closer to $50 each, but that was several years ago.

Indeed.  I'll have to check mine to see if I have an M7554-SC (512KB)
or M7554-SE (1.5MB)  There appear to be a large number of types of
M7554 in the field guide - different handles, different board etches,
different boot ROMs...

> The 11/53 version without the S-handle bracket seem to be a bit less
> common. I managed to also grab one of those on eBay a while ago, maybe
> less than $100 at the time.

Those were usually found in late-model MicroPDP-11s, and not as
plentiful as some types of PDP-11, IME.

I worked with one in Aug, 1988 that was running MUMPS (a customer
wanted our company to bump up their storage - that was an adventure as
neither of us doing the work had ever used MUMPS before, and it was
all menu-driven and nothing like any other PDP-11 OS that we had
encountered before).

-ethan

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Paul Birkel via cctech
 wrote:
>
>> Are there any reasonably priced boards with the processor and memory
>> of either the KDF or KDJ processors?
>
> KDJ11-D (M7554) aka PDP-11/53  "All you need to add is a hard drive 
> controller."
>
> See: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/kdj11.htm

Yeah, a DECserver 500 or 550 version of an M7554 is usually the least
expensive version to find. Here are some asking $175.00 or make an
offer.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-KDJ11-SB-M7554-PB-DECSERVER-500-18-MHZ-CPU/111708401901

I picked up a couple of the DECserver 550 version (1.5MB RAM instead
of 512KB) for closer to $50 each, but that was several years ago.

The 11/53 version without the S-handle bracket seem to be a bit less
common. I managed to also grab one of those on eBay a while ago, maybe
less than $100 at the time.

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/21/2017 01:02 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
> On 5/21/17 8:51 AM, Rob Doyle via cctalk wrote:
>
>> How 'bout a brand new J11-based board for oldie S-100 systems?
> Reinventing incompatible I/O for existing operating systems.
>
> Maybe if they wrote a new unencumbered OS, but I'm not holding my breath.

Its a PITA for even simple os like RT11.
> I don't get why they abandoned their original Eurocard form factor for 
> something truly
> braindead.
S100 fits everthing, even if not well.

> Linear regulators on every card is stupid in the era of high efficiency 
> switchers.

Its the BUS  Switchers back then were expensive and not efficient,
nor quiet.
back then they were large too.  It also meant a better buss structure to
distribute
5V without undue voltage drop.  It is why DEC Qbus is only so large
before they
went BA123 with two power supplies.  Ever heard a DEC H780 sing,
loudly!  Your
critical of tech as it was.In the end S100 was the cheap way for the
day not
expecting to become a monster system that they tended to become.

I have a s100 box I made up without them and its a pain to use boards
across
systems without mods.

Systems I do now don't need S100, SS50, or Multibus as I can put all that
on one small card.

> Now he's talking about Multibus, so he can use all of those 8" SMD disk and
> Pertec tape controller boards. Maybe my boxes of that junk will be worth 
> something now.
>
Multibus was nicer and cleaner but in the end one multibus card can hold an
entire system now and be big and clunky.


Allison

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/21/2017 11:51 AM, Rob Doyle via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/20/2017 7:01 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>> Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
>> others) is the T11.  Its easily > useful like a 8085 or Z80.
>
> How 'bout a brand new J11-based board for oldie S-100 systems?
>
> 
>
>
> Rob.
Rob,

A T-11 was easier and fewer issues.

The biggest issue with T/F/J-11 is that all IO is RBW (read before
write, even if read is not used)
making IO difficult.  This is solved by DEC by reading one address and
writing another.  For S100
 doing IO you create BBS7 (bank select 7, logical or of high order 3
bits) as IO/ROM space
and munge the IO address for read and write to be offset for a given target.

Allison

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 5/21/17 8:51 AM, Rob Doyle via cctalk wrote:

> How 'bout a brand new J11-based board for oldie S-100 systems?

Reinventing incompatible I/O for existing operating systems.

Maybe if they wrote a new unencumbered OS, but I'm not holding my breath.

I don't get why they abandoned their original Eurocard form factor for 
something truly
braindead.

Linear regulators on every card is stupid in the era of high efficiency 
switchers.

Now he's talking about Multibus, so he can use all of those 8" SMD disk and
Pertec tape controller boards. Maybe my boxes of that junk will be worth 
something now.

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Rob Doyle via cctalk]

On 5/20/2017 7:01 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:

Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
others) is the T11.  Its easily > useful like a 8085 or Z80.


How 'bout a brand new J11-based board for oldie S-100 systems?



Rob.

RE: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Paul Birkel via cctalk]

-Original Message-
From: cctech [mailto:cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison via 
cctech
Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2017 8:38 AM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

On 05/20/2017 06:40 PM, jim stephens via cctech wrote:
>
>
> On 5/20/2017 3:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> I have the M8189 11/23+ boards here. call me tonight if you want.
>>
>> Paul
>>
> Are there any reasonably priced boards with the processor and memory
> of either the KDF or KDJ processors?

KDJ11-D (M7554) aka PDP-11/53  "All you need to add is a hard drive controller."

See: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/kdj11.htm 

-

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/20/2017 06:40 PM, jim stephens via cctech wrote:
>
>
> On 5/20/2017 3:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> I have the M8189 11/23+ boards here. call me tonight if you want.
>>
>> Paul
>>
> Are there any reasonably priced boards with the processor and memory
> of either the KDF or KDJ processors?
>

There are no boards with memory in the KDF family (11/23, 23+).  The J11
has one.
IF you want to take a different path find a Pro350(KDF-11) or Pro380(KDJ-11)

> The ones I've seen recently are astronomically priced.  Would be
> interesting to find one with memory, processor and console.
>
A complete system is usually cheaper than the random boards.  I know I
have two sitting.

Allison

> Thanks
> jim
>
>
> Th

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/21/2017 02:10 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 3:08 AM, allison via cctalk
>  wrote:
>
>> The only boards with T11 I have are RQDX1/2/3.  However I have a few
>> T11s that were ES parts from
> As an aside, there's a T11 in the VT240 terminal. I am certainly not 
> suggesting
> raiding such a terminal for the T11 chip though.
>
> I always thought it was a pity there was no way to run user programs on the
> VT240, unlike the GT40. That would have made an interesting 'PDP11' system.
>
> -tony
Just change the Eproms...  it has the resources save for all the IO will
be "odd" compared
to most 11s.

Allison

RE: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Henk Gooijen via cctalk]

Van: jim stephens via cctalk<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: zaterdag 20 mei 2017 23:59
Aan: allison<mailto:allisonporta...@gmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic 
and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)



On 5/20/2017 7:01 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> Argh,  CPU chips used on dec board loose value as the complete board
> carries the value.
>
> KDF with the second chip is useful but the logic needed to may a "CPU"
> of the raw chips is not trivial.
That was what I figured.  Hopefully the lister will put the two back
together, but has not done so for now.  he did bring down the price per
my suggestion he had messed up the value by pulling the chip.
> Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
> others) is the T11.  Its easily
> useful like a 8085 or Z80.
I've got two boards with T-11's very nice.  The T-11's listed right now
were higher in cost than the KDJ processor I have, and I have a full
page archived with the project to bring it up.  Just seemed like an
interesting project for sometime.

Thanks
Jim


Pete McCollum did a project based on the T11. It is a small PCB
with less than 10 ICs. He implemented a Forth environment on it.
I joined that project, but have not done anything with the hardware
till now  ☹   That will change when I retire in 7 years (haha) . . .

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 3:08 AM, allison via cctalk
 wrote:

> The only boards with T11 I have are RQDX1/2/3.  However I have a few
> T11s that were ES parts from

As an aside, there's a T11 in the VT240 terminal. I am certainly not suggesting
raiding such a terminal for the T11 chip though.

I always thought it was a pity there was no way to run user programs on the
VT240, unlike the GT40. That would have made an interesting 'PDP11' system.

-tony

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/20/2017 05:56 PM, jim stephens wrote:
>
>
> On 5/20/2017 7:01 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>> Argh,  CPU chips used on dec board loose value as the complete board
>> carries the value.
>>
>> KDF with the second chip is useful but the logic needed to may a "CPU"
>> of the raw chips is not trivial.
> That was what I figured.  Hopefully the lister will put the two back
> together, but has not done so for now.  he did bring down the price
> per my suggestion he had messed up the value by pulling the chip.
>> Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
>> others) is the T11.  Its easily
>> useful like a 8085 or Z80.
> I've got two boards with T-11's very nice.  The T-11's listed right
> now were higher in cost than the KDJ processor I have, and I have a
> full page archived with the project to bring it up.  Just seemed like
> an interesting project for sometime.
>
The only boards with T11 I have are RQDX1/2/3.  However I have a few
T11s that were ES parts from
my days at DEC and when the group moved they were going to trash them. 
Its an interesting part
as its unique in that the bus width and processor cycles are
configurable and that includes refresh
if needed for Dram (Z280 can do it but it was years later).It was
intended to be implemented like
the z80 and 8085 for system applications that needed more.

A projects archive for T11, I have to see that.

Allison

> Thanks
> Jim

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Paul Anderson via cctalk]

I don't remember the board numbers that came with the memory. If you have
specific boards I'll try to check tonight.

I seem to remember some lose J-11 chips somewhere- I'll try to find them.

Thanks, Paul

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 5:40 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 5/20/2017 3:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> I have the M8189 11/23+ boards here. call me tonight if you want.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> Are there any reasonably priced boards with the processor and memory of
> either the KDF or KDJ processors?
>
> The ones I've seen recently are astronomically priced.  Would be
> interesting to find one with memory, processor and console.
>
> Thanks
> jim
>
>
> Th
>

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 5/20/2017 3:20 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:

Hi Jim,

I have the M8189 11/23+ boards here. call me tonight if you want.

Paul

Are there any reasonably priced boards with the processor and memory of 
either the KDF or KDJ processors?


The ones I've seen recently are astronomically priced.  Would be 
interesting to find one with memory, processor and console.


Thanks
jim


Th

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Paul Anderson via cctalk]

Hi Jim,

I have the M8189 11/23+ boards here. call me tonight if you want.

Paul

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 4:59 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 5/20/2017 6:12 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>
>>  > From: Jim Stephens
>>
>>  > I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could
>> pull
>>  > the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate
>> auctions.
>>
>> There are a lot of idiotz out there.
>>
> Turned out he had never encountered this situation and was just doing as
> he has done breaking down other scrap.  Pull breakage one way, and keep
> motherboards and the like (per modern pc's) another. Hopefully he will
> share the other parts of the system and we can see what he got.  Not sure
> how far down it is all been taken though.
>
> When pulling apart old stuff 90's test equipment, advertising scrap, and
> the like they make more than trying to treat everything like a museum
> artifact.  The thing is do they keep doing it once you tell them.  I think
> this guy will listen.  we'll see.
> thanks
> Jim
>

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 5/20/2017 6:12 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

 > From: Jim Stephens

 > I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
 > the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.

There are a lot of idiotz out there.
Turned out he had never encountered this situation and was just doing as 
he has done breaking down other scrap.  Pull breakage one way, and keep 
motherboards and the like (per modern pc's) another. Hopefully he will 
share the other parts of the system and we can see what he got.  Not 
sure how far down it is all been taken though.


When pulling apart old stuff 90's test equipment, advertising scrap, and 
the like they make more than trying to treat everything like a museum 
artifact.  The thing is do they keep doing it once you tell them.  I 
think this guy will listen.  we'll see.

thanks
Jim

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 5/20/2017 7:01 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:

Argh,  CPU chips used on dec board loose value as the complete board
carries the value.

KDF with the second chip is useful but the logic needed to may a "CPU"
of the raw chips is not trivial.
That was what I figured.  Hopefully the lister will put the two back 
together, but has not done so for now.  he did bring down the price per 
my suggestion he had messed up the value by pulling the chip.

Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
others) is the T11.  Its easily
useful like a 8085 or Z80.
I've got two boards with T-11's very nice.  The T-11's listed right now 
were higher in cost than the KDJ processor I have, and I have a full 
page archived with the project to bring it up.  Just seemed like an 
interesting project for sometime.


Thanks
Jim

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 5/20/2017 7:49 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

- Original Message -
From: "Noel Chiappa via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Cc: <j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)



> From: Jim Stephens

> I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
> the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.

There are a lot of idiotz out there.

I ran into one who'd removed a group of boards from (probably) an -11/40, and
then scrapped away the rest of the machine (including an RK11-D backplane).

I took _great_ pleasure in informing him that the stuff he'd scrapped had
been worth several times what the boards he had 'saved' had been worth.

Noel

-

Be kind!

Many years ago, before I discovered that people actually valued and collected 
this useless junk I bought a Northstar-in-a-desk at auction, threw the innards 
in the trash and kept the desk (now holding a stack of Cromemcos ;-).

m
The fellow responded and as I had suspected had never seen anything this 
old before and had thought that the parts were separable.  He will be 
possibly re-combining them later.  (I had figured he did not know it was 
not a case like PC's where the processors and MB's were routinely 
separated).


I'm sending along the link and contact to some who PM'ed me as well.

Also he is going to hopefully share photos of the entire pile and I'll 
try to help him market the parts in the most profitable way for him.  I 
and the PM'er who will know who he is will hopefully rescue some stuff 
that way.


Thanks
jim

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[allison via cctalk]

On 05/20/2017 04:59 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
> I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
> the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.
>
> I couldn't find the processor from the huge number of gold scrap chip
> auctions he had, but he said it (or the other) chip(s) for the board
> were listed.
>
> I think giving him the benefit of the doubt, he thought that the two
> were separable like motherboards and processors are now day.  Worst
> case he was just an unfortunate idiot that destroyed the board.
>
> I sent him an email telling him the value I place on it (tested) and
> suggested that he think of older boards as the full components to be
> kept together unless he wants to destroy the board, or knows what he
> is doing breaking them up.  Of course on old Qbus and the like boards,
> one does have some components that are more valuable if you break up
> the board, and pull "unobtainium" chips.  But pulling out the KDF
> processor isn't one of them in general.
>
> I just bought a KDJ Jaws chip for a "round 2it" project to try to get
> it running, as I archived a PDP11 "Hack" page indicating how to get
> one running on a proto board with minimal hardware.
>
> I don't know if you could do that with the KDF, but that isn't what
> this guy is doing.
>
Argh,  CPU chips used on dec board loose value as the complete board
carries the value.

KDF with the second chip is useful but the logic needed to may a "CPU"
of the raw chips is
not trivial.

Best chip for hacking and useful off a board (Falcon, KXT11, RQDX,
others) is the T11.  Its easily
useful like a 8085 or Z80.
 
Allison

> thanks
> Jim
>

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

- Original Message - 
From: "Noel Chiappa via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Cc: <j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)


>> From: Jim Stephens
> 
>> I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
>> the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.
> 
> There are a lot of idiotz out there.
> 
> I ran into one who'd removed a group of boards from (probably) an -11/40, and
> then scrapped away the rest of the machine (including an RK11-D backplane).
> 
> I took _great_ pleasure in informing him that the stuff he'd scrapped had
> been worth several times what the boards he had 'saved' had been worth.
> 
> Noel
-

Be kind!

Many years ago, before I discovered that people actually valued and collected 
this useless junk I bought a Northstar-in-a-desk at auction, threw the innards 
in the trash and kept the desk (now holding a stack of Cromemcos ;-).

m

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Jim Stephens

> I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
> the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.

There are a lot of idiotz out there.

I ran into one who'd removed a group of boards from (probably) an -11/40, and
then scrapped away the rest of the machine (including an RK11-D backplane).

I took _great_ pleasure in informing him that the stuff he'd scrapped had
been worth several times what the boards he had 'saved' had been worth.

Noel