Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 5/22/19 1:38 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
I'm not Google, I can't put my infrastructure in the Arctic to reduce my 
cooling needs.


Google has infrastructure all over the world.  Most of the locations 
require active cooling year round.  A quick Google search turns up the 
following maps:


Link - Map of all Google data center locations
 - https://royal.pingdom.com/map-of-all-google-data-center-locations/

There may be a few data centers in the northern hemisphere that are in a 
temperate ~ cold climate.  But I don't see any in the Arctic.


Also, Google wants the infrastructure as close to the end users as 
reasonably possible.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 4:24 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/22/19 12:49 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
> >> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> >> through the IT space in the data center.
> >
> > So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your
> > cooling water system if not using plumbing?
>
> So how are data centers cooled with water now?  Does the water cool
> coldplates directly?
>

That's an option.  I support 20-30kW/rack systems with using Coolcentric
(passive) rear door heat exchangers, which have a dewpoint-adjusted cooling
loop.  The air is generally managed using CRAC units / building air
handlers.


> I recall visiting the Honeywell plant in Phoenix not long after they
> took it over from GE and the engineers there were tinkering with a
> direct water-cooling setup--water circulated in each rack (connected by
> what was probably vinyl tubing, I don't recall, only that it was
> translucent), with copper diaphragms serving as the interface between
> the water and the semiconductors.  I recall from comments made that
> algae was a problem and adding an algicide to the cooling water tended
> to corrode the copper diaphragms.
>

New versions of that are made by companies such as Cool-IT, or HPE's SGI
systems.  The materials used have progressed quite a bit, mostly
eliminating the algae and corrosion problems, and people have mostly
settled on ~25-40C (77-104F) water for cooling, to avoid condensing
humidity.

Pat

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 3:50 AM Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
> > Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> > through the IT space in the data center.
>
> So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your
> cooling water system if not using plumbing?
>

I guess I should have added "etc" to my exception list?  My point was that
air handlers, CRACs, etc, should not have their plumbing running through
the data center since they should be outside in a mechanical room anyways.


> > Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
> > condensate drains inside the DC.
>
> That is a requirement, you must have condensate drains just in case that
> the room temperature and/or air humidity rises, or cooling water
> temperature goes below the dew point.
>

For what we do, It's not, we don't do that, and our equipment suppliers
don't suggest it.  The air is humidity controlled before it gets near the
IT racks, by building air handlers and CRAC units.

Our process water loop inside the room watches the humidity and adjusts the
water temperature appropriately.  It'd be hard to for the dewpoint to
change rapidly enough to cause condensation vs how quickly systems can
increase the water temperature to compensate.

Modern systems using direct-to-system water cooling also tend to use "warm
water" cooling, since they don't need water below ~90F (~32C) to cool
effectively (some specify up to ~104F (~40C).  RIP the data center that has
a dewpoint that high, since the servers will probably be covered in rust
pretty quickly.

Pat

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 05:17, Mark Linimon via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 09:52:19AM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote:
> > I think Google and their YAWNs
>
> Definition, please?  Wikipedia and Urban Dictionary are no help.  A Google
> search itself is nothing but false positives.

FWIW, I had no clue either. I was hoping to work it out from context.
No joy so far.


-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/22/19 12:49 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
>> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
>> through the IT space in the data center.
> 
> So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your
> cooling water system if not using plumbing?

So how are data centers cooled with water now?  Does the water cool
coldplates directly?

I've had only a couple of instances where cooling water was used.  In
the case of CDC mainframes, it was used to cool the condenser coils in
the refrigeration units (located in the mainframe).  I believe that Cray
initially used the same guy that CDC used to fabricate the cooling tubing.

I recall visiting the Honeywell plant in Phoenix not long after they
took it over from GE and the engineers there were tinkering with a
direct water-cooling setup--water circulated in each rack (connected by
what was probably vinyl tubing, I don't recall, only that it was
translucent), with copper diaphragms serving as the interface between
the water and the semiconductors.  I recall from comments made that
algae was a problem and adding an algicide to the cooling water tended
to corrode the copper diaphragms.

To the best of my knowledge, this was a test setup--it certainly had an
impressive instrumentation unit with multiple CRTs and neon
thermometer-type displays.

The most extreme example I ever ran into of cooling was the ETA-10
supercomputer--cooled with liquid nitrogen, supplied by a cryostat.  I
don't recall what cooled the latter.

--Chuck

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:

Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
through the IT space in the data center.


So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your 
cooling water system if not using plumbing?



Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
condensate drains inside the DC.


That is a requirement, you must have condensate drains just in case that 
the room temperature and/or air humidity rises, or cooling water 
temperature goes below the dew point.


Christian

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 21 May 2019, Grant Taylor wrote:

On 5/21/19 2:13 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:

You definitely need a raised floor for a data center.
I think Google and their YAWNs will disagree with you on an actual /need/ for 
a raised floor in a data center.


I'm not Google, I can't put my infrastructure in the Arctic to reduce my 
cooling needs.


Christian

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 09:52:19AM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote:
> I think Google and their YAWNs

Definition, please?  Wikipedia and Urban Dictionary are no help.  A Google
search itself is nothing but false positives.

mcl

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 05/21/2019 04:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

How well sealed were the raised floors?
Not at all.  They were 2 foot squares sitting on adjustable 
pillars.  Each pillar supported 4 tiles where they all met 
at the corners.  You could easily slip a punch card (or 
credit card) between most of the tiles.  Anything poured on 
the floor would run down between the tiles.


Jon

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

I liked  raised  flooring     you can  clean the room up  fast  by stashing 
 stuff in the non critical to airflow  areas!  see


we  were  lucky  when  comshare  of an arbor    division on  phx    moved out   
where  they  designed  IBM channel interfaces  for  xerox sigma 9s
We  got their  space next to  us   and bought  their  their  flooring  rather  
than them  shipping  back  to ann arbor Mich.  to put  our  HP  stuff on.
best  thing  ever  did   it  kept  things neat, clean and  provided  xtra 
storage. 

In a message dated 5/20/2019 9:11:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
> I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data center
> with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
> work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.

But with a raised floor, you can whack the tile puller down in such a
way that it makes an enormously loud pop that startles everyone in the
datacenter!

I cannot imagine difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables in
overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.

--
Will

--
Will

Raised Floor => was RE: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

 -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via
> cctalk
> Sent: 21 May 2019 22:33
> To: Grant Taylor via cctalk 
> Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system
> 
> On 5/21/19 1:17 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > I'm sure that was /a/ problem.  But I'm not comfortable attributing
> > that problem to the raised floor.
> >
> > I expect that the same problem would be effected by an elevator that
> > doesn't stop perfectly level with the floor, or has too wide a gap
> > between the car and the floor, or even on tiled floor.
> >
> > That really seems to me like it's a sub-optimal design, pushed past
> > it's operating parameters by overloading it.
> >
> > I can't fault the raised floor for that problem.
> 
> No, but it's just one of the anecdotes that go with the terrain, like leaving 
> a
> box or two of cards or a stack of tapes or your dinner on top of a 1403N1
> when it ran out of forms..
> 
> How well sealed were the raised floors?  I ask this because i recall an 
> episode
> or two where a disk drive would spring a leak and make a beautiful slippery
> pool on the floor, just waiting for the next operator to dash by. I always
> wondered how much of the stuff made it to the subfloor.
> 

I think the joints were often tight. Otherwise you got drafts or a breeze. 
Speaking of breezes, we found our plotter ( kept over-heating.) 
Some one kept closing the floor vent.
We eventually found it was the plotter operator who was a young lady with a 
short skirt.
When loading the mag tape with the plots she had to stand over the vent which 
blew out cold air,
So she closed the vent.
... it took some tact to get this info, and we then moved the tile with the 
vent and the plotter stayed cool...
 
At another place we had a disk drive drop through a tile. We had had the 
joiners make some temporary tiles while we were having an upgrade.
The ran out of plywood and joined two scraps, but not very well. The rocking of 
the drive broke the joint and the drive fell through.
We were surprised it kept working without a head crash

> --Chuck

Dave

RE: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Sudbrink via cctalk]

Chuck Guzis wrote:

> How well sealed were the raised floors?

If you mean "when properly installed", pretty well.
If you mean "as actually used", not at all.

With the exception of the very small raised floor under
the HP-3000 in my high school, every place I've encountered
raised floors there were "permanently removed" tiles, tiles
with corners cut off, tiles with large holes drilled into their
centers, etc. etc.

Bill S.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 5/21/19 3:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
How well sealed were the raised floors?  I ask this because i recall an 
episode or two where a disk drive would spring a leak and make a beautiful 
slippery pool on the floor, just waiting for the next operator to dash 
by. I always wondered how much of the stuff made it to the subfloor.


I wouldn't consider them sealed at all.

Is suspect that vast majority of the fluid would spread out across the 
tiles than would actually drip through.  I expect that it would have a 
lot more to do with the rate of release to determine if it would flow 
across tile gaps vs drip down in between.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/21/19 1:17 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> I'm sure that was /a/ problem.  But I'm not comfortable attributing that
> problem to the raised floor.
> 
> I expect that the same problem would be effected by an elevator that
> doesn't stop perfectly level with the floor, or has too wide a gap
> between the car and the floor, or even on tiled floor.
> 
> That really seems to me like it's a sub-optimal design, pushed past it's
> operating parameters by overloading it.
> 
> I can't fault the raised floor for that problem.

No, but it's just one of the anecdotes that go with the terrain, like
leaving a box or two of cards or a stack of tapes or your dinner on top
of a 1403N1 when it ran out of forms..

How well sealed were the raised floors?  I ask this because i recall an
episode or two where a disk drive would spring a leak and make a
beautiful slippery pool on the floor, just waiting for the next operator
to dash by. I always wondered how much of the stuff made it to the subfloor.

--Chuck

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 5/21/19 1:51 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
...except when it didn't.   On more than one occasion, I recall watching 
some poor soul with a cart balanced with long (3 foot) trays full of 
cards, hitting a lifted separator strip in the raised floor.  Over goes 
the cart, the cards spread in every direction, and the pusher sitting 
in the middle of it all, close to tears.


I'm sure that was /a/ problem.  But I'm not comfortable attributing that 
problem to the raised floor.


I expect that the same problem would be effected by an elevator that 
doesn't stop perfectly level with the floor, or has too wide a gap 
between the car and the floor, or even on tiled floor.


That really seems to me like it's a sub-optimal design, pushed past it's 
operating parameters by overloading it.


I can't fault the raised floor for that problem.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/21/19 12:55 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
> You can't blame anyone but they idiot using a 3 wheel cart while
> moving decks of cards. No sympathy from me.

They were using what was available. I bought their own four-wheel cart
(looked like a standard gray industrial shop cart that you can purchase
today.  I suspect the small ones were intended for easy access when
delivering cards, tapes and listings to many people and the easy ability
to get in and out of elevators and through doorways. I suspect that they
were repurposed small mail carts.

--Chuck

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

You can't blame anyone but they idiot using a 3 wheel cart while
moving decks of cards. No sympathy from me.

--
Will

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 3:51 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On 5/21/19 12:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> > I might think far more "obsolete" than "bad idea". It worked very well
> > for the mainframe folks.
>
> ...except when it didn't.   On more than one occasion, I recall watching
> some poor soul with a cart balanced with long (3 foot) trays full of
> cards, hitting a lifted separator strip in the raised floor.  Over goes
> the cart, the cards spread in every direction, and the pusher sitting in
> the middle of it all, close to tears.
>
> If you happen to chance across any old card decks and note traces of a
> diagonal line drawn across the top, that's the reason--a visual aid for
> reassembling a spilled deck.
>
> I think the integration folks eventually moved to 4-wheel carts instead
> of the 3-wheel ones for exactly this reason.   Their job was integrating
> new code and patches into the existing product base.  The trip with the
> cards was to make a tape of the data, so that the trip didn't have to be
> repeated.
>
> --Chuck
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/21/19 12:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> I might think far more "obsolete" than "bad idea". It worked very well
> for the mainframe folks.

...except when it didn't.   On more than one occasion, I recall watching
some poor soul with a cart balanced with long (3 foot) trays full of
cards, hitting a lifted separator strip in the raised floor.  Over goes
the cart, the cards spread in every direction, and the pusher sitting in
the middle of it all, close to tears.

If you happen to chance across any old card decks and note traces of a
diagonal line drawn across the top, that's the reason--a visual aid for
reassembling a spilled deck.

I think the integration folks eventually moved to 4-wheel carts instead
of the 3-wheel ones for exactly this reason.   Their job was integrating
new code and patches into the existing product base.  The trip with the
cards was to make a tape of the data, so that the trip didn't have to be
repeated.

--Chuck

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

I might think far more "obsolete" than "bad idea". It worked very well
for the mainframe folks.

--
Will

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 1:50 PM Jay West via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> No modern datacenter that I have seen still uses a raised floor *OTHER THAN* 
> about 3 inches for a ground plane. There is a reason for that... the old idea 
> of forced cooling under the floor and mixing power & data cables there has 
> been found to be a truly bad idea.
>
> Power in most any modern datacenter is via "track lighting" rails directly 
> over the row of racks. Ex: https://www.starlinepower.com/busway/
>
> HVAC units are generally not inside the datacenter any longer either, nor are 
> UPS's. These cause access control issues with vendors doing maintenance and 
> raises issues for publicly traded companies that must meet certain control & 
> accountability standards. Not to mention locating them on the datacenter 
> floor can cause issues with cool air routing. So these days the hot and cold 
> aisles are alternating, with a windsock/tube above the racks for cold air 
> delivery to the front and an 8 foot or so fan built in the hot aisle wall. 
> This is the optimum place for particle (smoke) sensors as well. That design 
> also lets in certain situations outside air to be used.
>
> So to say you "definitely need a raised floor for a datacenter" is only true 
> if you are trying to create a period replica. A modern datacenter built that 
> way... well... not sure any self-respecting contractor would build one 'the 
> old way' :)
>
> J
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian 
> Stoness via cctalk
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 12:03 PM
> To: Patrick Finnegan ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
> Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system
>
> all systems have their advantages disadvantages it all depends on what your 
> doing and designs u choose. personaly i think raised floor and tray above are 
> best then u keep all ur power below away from ur data lines plus but then ur 
> setup is only as good as the lazyest tech u get comming in running stuff.
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:38 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk < 
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, May 21, 2019, 04:13 Christian Corti via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > > You definitely need a raised floor
> > > for a data center. You need it for forced air cooling and for
> > > running the water and condensate pipes.
> >
> >
> > Ductwork doesn't have to be below the floor. Modern co-lo facilities
> > that I have been in (such as Switch Supernap) don't have a raised floor.
> >
> > Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> > through the IT space in the data center.
> >
> > Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
> > condensate drains inside the DC.
> >
> > And overhead trays are much more difficult to
> > > work with if you want to lay new cables because you have to climb up
> > > and down the ladder all the time, moving the ladder from here to
> > > there and back to here...
> > >
> >
> > I solved that by having multiple ladders. In my experience, it's a lot
> > easier than trying to reach through a cluttered raised floor under racks.
> >
> > The only good reason that I have seen in this thread for a raised
> > floor is to match older equipment that routes cables downwards.
> >
> > Pat
> >
> > >
> >
>
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[ben via cctalk]

On 5/21/2019 11:03 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

all systems have their advantages disadvantages it all depends on what your
doing and designs u choose. personaly i think raised floor and tray above
are best then u keep all ur power below away from ur data lines plus but
then ur setup is only as good as the lazyest tech u get comming in running
stuff.


I say use the STAR TREK layout. All cables run under the AIR DUCTS, and
you crawl through those. :)
Ben.

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Sean Conner via cctalk]

It was thus said that the Great Jay West via cctalk once stated:
> No modern datacenter that I have seen still uses a raised floor *OTHER
> THAN* about 3 inches for a ground plane. There is a reason for that... the
> old idea of forced cooling under the floor and mixing power & data cables
> there has been found to be a truly bad idea.

  I recall walking through the former IBM main site in Boca Raton [1] in the
late 90s with a few friends.  We were amazed to see labs with six-foot deep
pits---the tiles long gone and all cables removed.  It was quite the sight
to see.

  -spc

[1] Google street view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.3912323,-80.1059743,3a,75y,272.91h,88.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLqyUfSPPBaTwXUGrMFebxQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DLqyUfSPPBaTwXUGrMFebxQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D60.71677%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

The building is rated for a class-5 hurricane.  It's quite
impressive.

RE: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Jay West via cctalk]

No modern datacenter that I have seen still uses a raised floor *OTHER THAN* 
about 3 inches for a ground plane. There is a reason for that... the old idea 
of forced cooling under the floor and mixing power & data cables there has been 
found to be a truly bad idea.

Power in most any modern datacenter is via "track lighting" rails directly over 
the row of racks. Ex: https://www.starlinepower.com/busway/

HVAC units are generally not inside the datacenter any longer either, nor are 
UPS's. These cause access control issues with vendors doing maintenance and 
raises issues for publicly traded companies that must meet certain control & 
accountability standards. Not to mention locating them on the datacenter floor 
can cause issues with cool air routing. So these days the hot and cold aisles 
are alternating, with a windsock/tube above the racks for cold air delivery to 
the front and an 8 foot or so fan built in the hot aisle wall. This is the 
optimum place for particle (smoke) sensors as well. That design also lets in 
certain situations outside air to be used.

So to say you "definitely need a raised floor for a datacenter" is only true if 
you are trying to create a period replica. A modern datacenter built that 
way... well... not sure any self-respecting contractor would build one 'the old 
way' :)

J
-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness 
via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 12:03 PM
To: Patrick Finnegan ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system

all systems have their advantages disadvantages it all depends on what your 
doing and designs u choose. personaly i think raised floor and tray above are 
best then u keep all ur power below away from ur data lines plus but then ur 
setup is only as good as the lazyest tech u get comming in running stuff.

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:38 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk < 
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, May 21, 2019, 04:13 Christian Corti via cctalk < 
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > You definitely need a raised floor
> > for a data center. You need it for forced air cooling and for 
> > running the water and condensate pipes.
>
>
> Ductwork doesn't have to be below the floor. Modern co-lo facilities 
> that I have been in (such as Switch Supernap) don't have a raised floor.
>
> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run 
> through the IT space in the data center.
>
> Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need 
> condensate drains inside the DC.
>
> And overhead trays are much more difficult to
> > work with if you want to lay new cables because you have to climb up 
> > and down the ladder all the time, moving the ladder from here to 
> > there and back to here...
> >
>
> I solved that by having multiple ladders. In my experience, it's a lot 
> easier than trying to reach through a cluttered raised floor under racks.
>
> The only good reason that I have seen in this thread for a raised 
> floor is to match older equipment that routes cables downwards.
>
> Pat
>
> >
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

"1 in the elvator takes you to the data center.
B in the elvator takes you to the tall enough to walk in raised floor.
M or 2 in the elevator takes you to the overhead ca ble area."

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

all systems have their advantages disadvantages it all depends on what your
doing and designs u choose. personaly i think raised floor and tray above
are best then u keep all ur power below away from ur data lines plus but
then ur setup is only as good as the lazyest tech u get comming in running
stuff.

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:38 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, May 21, 2019, 04:13 Christian Corti via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > You definitely need a raised floor
> > for a data center. You need it for forced air cooling and for running the
> > water and condensate pipes.
>
>
> Ductwork doesn't have to be below the floor. Modern co-lo facilities that I
> have been in (such as Switch Supernap) don't have a raised floor.
>
> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> through the IT space in the data center.
>
> Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
> condensate drains inside the DC.
>
> And overhead trays are much more difficult to
> > work with if you want to lay new cables because you have to climb up and
> > down the ladder all the time, moving the ladder from here to there and
> > back to here...
> >
>
> I solved that by having multiple ladders. In my experience, it's a lot
> easier than trying to reach through a cluttered raised floor under racks.
>
> The only good reason that I have seen in this thread for a raised floor is
> to match older equipment that routes cables downwards.
>
> Pat
>
> >
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Tue, May 21, 2019, 04:13 Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> You definitely need a raised floor
> for a data center. You need it for forced air cooling and for running the
> water and condensate pipes.


Ductwork doesn't have to be below the floor. Modern co-lo facilities that I
have been in (such as Switch Supernap) don't have a raised floor.

Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
through the IT space in the data center.

Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
condensate drains inside the DC.

And overhead trays are much more difficult to
> work with if you want to lay new cables because you have to climb up and
> down the ladder all the time, moving the ladder from here to there and
> back to here...
>

I solved that by having multiple ladders. In my experience, it's a lot
easier than trying to reach through a cluttered raised floor under racks.

The only good reason that I have seen in this thread for a raised floor is
to match older equipment that routes cables downwards.

Pat

>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 5/21/19 2:13 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:

You definitely need a raised floor for a data center.
I think Google and their YAWNs will disagree with you on an actual 
/need/ for a raised floor in a data center.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

RE: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Sudbrink via cctalk]

Adrian Stoness wrote:
> had to crawl 300feet under raised floor cause it was carpeted runing
> 48pair fiber line took a good hour and half to get it over to the room with
> the rack in it from the building raise

When I interned with the Social Security Administration, I was tasked with
crawling under the raised floor, pulling cable.  As well as the various scenery
already mentioned by others, I came up at the other end with several dozen
9-track tape write rings.  I stuck them on my (then skinny) arms as I crawled,
The older guys, waiting at the other end, laughed and told me stories of the
write ring battles that went on "back in the day".

Bill S.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

The logo is sort of wrong for the era. I think it is just a sticker
that was applied.

And I do not think Puma would have been running on just a model 20,
and especially in such an "interesting" datacenter. By the 60s, they
were already a good sized company.

--
Will

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 6:26 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 23:10, Adrian Stoness via cctalk
>  wrote:
> >
> > anyone figured out what these were being used for in that building?
>
> Puma, the sportswear company, I think. Related to Adidas -- I believe
> the companies were run by 2 brothers who fell out.
>
> Puma was founded in Nuremberg. You can see Puma's logo in some of the
> photos and it was mentioned in the eBay ad.
>
> --
> Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 23:10, Adrian Stoness via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> anyone figured out what these were being used for in that building?

Puma, the sportswear company, I think. Related to Adidas -- I believe
the companies were run by 2 brothers who fell out.

Puma was founded in Nuremberg. You can see Puma's logo in some of the
photos and it was mentioned in the eBay ad.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Mon, 20 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:

I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data center
with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.


My experience is that overhead trays are not better. We have rooms with 
only raised floors, and one with both. You definitely need a raised floor 
for a data center. You need it for forced air cooling and for running the 
water and condensate pipes. And overhead trays are much more difficult to 
work with if you want to lay new cables because you have to climb up and 
down the ladder all the time, moving the ladder from here to there and 
back to here...


Christian

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

First, congratulations from us :-)

Reading your blog, I'm glad that we did not win the auction. We simply do 
not have the time and space (and money) to handle this, especially the 
effort needed to get everything out of the house. I and Klemens both have 
jobs that require us to do other things besides the museum ;-)


On Mon, 20 May 2019, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote:
There was one 360/20 (pink) that was cabled up with 2 x 2311 disk, 2 x 2415 
tape, 2560 MFCM and (I think) the 1403 printer. That system appears to have 
been in use at that site. The second 360/20 (blue) was not cabled to 
anything, and the 370/125 (yellow) likewise. So I expect neither of those was 
used at all.


Am I right that the 370/125 is missing something? At least there is 
one yellow unit that is lacking the top half (or whatever).


These need to be read - I know there are services that will process scans, 
but is there anywhere (UK/Europe) that can take the physical cards and give 
us back files?


Yes, we can (located in Stuttgart, not too far from Nuremburg). We've done 
that with all cards that we got. Our setup uses the 1442 card reader on 
the 1130 and a program that reads the cards and sends them via V.24 (with 
a home-made tape punch interface to V.24 converter) to be captured by a 
UNIX machine.


The guys did a wonderful job, especially on that last day when they managed 
to move most of the units and clear everything out. As mentioned, the /20 
CPUs and 2415 master unit were 500-600kg each and about the limit of the 
tail-lift.


I'm curious, did everything fit in a normal 7.5t truck or how do you move 
all the stuff to the UK?


Christian

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Curious Marc via cctalk]

Fantastic. It fell into the right hands.

Marc

 

And so the story continues

 

https://ibms360.co.uk/

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 5/20/19 1:30 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote:

> As Adam isn't on the list, and I am one of those in that photograph...

>From the pictures, it looks like the packs were left in the drives. You should 
>pull them
and lock down the actuator arm before moving them any further.

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

had to crawl 300feet under raised floor cause it was carpeted runing
48pair fiber line took a good hour and half to get it over to the room with
the rack in it from the building raise

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 4:25 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/20/19 2:04 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> > try crawling under them
>
> You'd only upset the mice and the cockroaches.  I recall that back in
> the day at CDC SVLOPS, the local CEs made a pet of one of the sub-floor
> mice.  Field crickets were a problem back then too--the moment that the
> weather turned cool, they'd invade the facility.  It was not unusual to
> find a couple hiding out in one's desk drawers.
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On May 20, 2019, at 5:21 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 5:07 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>>> I'm used to 2' (24") raised floors.
>> 
>> I was used to 24 inch floors packed with so many dead cables they were
>> effectively 6 to 12 inch floors. Or worse.
>> 
> 
> This gets at exactly the reason I dislike raised floors "out of sight -
> out of mind".  If all of the cabling is overhead, it gets ugly when you
> abandon stuff, and there's more motivation to not make it a mess.

Perhaps, but I remember seeing overhead cable trays running down the hallways 
in the DEC Mill, full of ancient and obviously abandoned stuff.

> Also, I'd rather see all of the parts, rather than have them hidden from
> view.  I suppose that not everyone shares that point of view.

Raised floors often doubled as air handling space, supplying cold air for 
cooling the equipment.

Overhead trays work well for rack mounted equipment, where the trays hang just 
above the racks.  When the equipment is in cabinets of varying height, like 
line printers or RP06 disk drives or stuff like that, running the cable way up 
in the air isn't so handy.  Never mind the fact that the connectors are 
configured to send the cable downward to the floor, not up to the ceiling.

paul

RE: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
> cctalk
> Sent: 20 May 2019 22:00
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system
> 
> On 5/20/19 10:10 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> > I cannot imagine (how) difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables
> > in overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.
> 
> I think it would be quite annoying to get cables from floor level up to the
> overhead cable trays.  Especially from all the equipment designed for /
> assuming that cables went down below a raised floor.
> 
> Not the least of which would be burning (I'm guessing at least) 6' of cable on
> each end.
> 

IBM kit is designed to fit on raised floors. There isn't much clearance between 
the bottom of the cabinets and the floor.
As someone has said the IBM bus and tag cables are thick and actual consist of 
multiple co-ax cables in big bundle .
I have run a 4361 without raised floors, but we just ran the cables round the 
floor.
To run in them in roof level cable trays would be challenging. You would have 
to run them across the floor for some distance before 
Curving them up would be challenging as the minimum bend radius is large.  

Dave

> 
> 
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 5/20/19 2:04 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> try crawling under them

You'd only upset the mice and the cockroaches.  I recall that back in
the day at CDC SVLOPS, the local CEs made a pet of one of the sub-floor
mice.  Field crickets were a problem back then too--the moment that the
weather turned cool, they'd invade the facility.  It was not unusual to
find a couple hiding out in one's desk drawers.

--Chuck

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 5:07 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > I'm used to 2' (24") raised floors.
>
> I was used to 24 inch floors packed with so many dead cables they were
> effectively 6 to 12 inch floors. Or worse.
>

This gets at exactly the reason I dislike raised floors "out of sight -
out of mind".  If all of the cabling is overhead, it gets ugly when you
abandon stuff, and there's more motivation to not make it a mess.

Also, I'd rather see all of the parts, rather than have them hidden from
view.  I suppose that not everyone shares that point of view.

Pat

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> I'm used to 2' (24") raised floors.

I was used to 24 inch floors packed with so many dead cables they were
effectively 6 to 12 inch floors. Or worse.

--
Will

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

try crawling under them

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 4:03 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/20/19 10:40 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote:
> > An acceptable compromise is something like the 6 ft raised floor they
> > have over at NCSA.
>
> I've often wondered why more people don't do raised floors high enough
> to walk under.
>
> I guess they are trying to put it in one room and not have two separated
> room stacked.
>
> There's also the fact that having an open tile on a 6' (or taller)
> raised floor is considerably more dangerous than something much shorter.
>
> > But the typical 12" raised floors I've had to deal with are...
> unpleasant.
>
> I'm used to 2' (24") raised floors.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 5/20/19 10:40 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote:
An acceptable compromise is something like the 6 ft raised floor they 
have over at NCSA.


I've often wondered why more people don't do raised floors high enough 
to walk under.


I guess they are trying to put it in one room and not have two separated 
room stacked.


There's also the fact that having an open tile on a 6' (or taller) 
raised floor is considerably more dangerous than something much shorter.



But the typical 12" raised floors I've had to deal with are... unpleasant.


I'm used to 2' (24") raised floors.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 5/20/19 10:10 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
I cannot imagine (how) difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables in 
overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.


I think it would be quite annoying to get cables from floor level up to 
the overhead cable trays.  Especially from all the equipment designed 
for / assuming that cables went down below a raised floor.


Not the least of which would be burning (I'm guessing at least) 6' of 
cable on each end.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk]

On 20/05/2019 18:42, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

The model 20 installations that I played with were mostly to supplant
unit-record gear, which typically did not use a raised floor
configuration.  Mostly the CPU, card mulcher, printer and perhaps a 2311.

The installation auctioned off is one of the larger Model 20 setups that
I've seen.

--Chuck


As Adam isn't on the list, and I am one of those in that photograph...

There was one 360/20 (pink) that was cabled up with 2 x 2311 disk, 2 x 
2415 tape, 2560 MFCM and (I think) the 1403 printer. That system appears 
to have been in use at that site. The second 360/20 (blue) was not 
cabled to anything, and the 370/125 (yellow) likewise. So I expect 
neither of those was used at all.


It can't have been a serious commercial installation, but maybe it was a 
keen hobbyist who acquired the systems and decided to keep them running, 
or perhaps used as a training tool. It apparently hasn't been used for 
30+ years.


The "raised floor" was in a sorry state, the heavy units had sunk into 
the soft wood panels. I guess the framing might have been useful.


It was good that all the punch cards required seem to be there and in 
good condition: the Control Program (microcode) cards for the /20, RPG, 
BAL etc. These need to be read - I know there are services that will 
process scans, but is there anywhere (UK/Europe) that can take the 
physical cards and give us back files?


The guys did a wonderful job, especially on that last day when they 
managed to move most of the units and clear everything out. As 
mentioned, the /20 CPUs and 2415 master unit were 500-600kg each and 
about the limit of the tail-lift.


If anything I've written here is contradicted by anything in the blog, 
believe the blog! https://ibms360.co.uk


--
Lawrence Wilkinson lawre...@ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page   http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

The model 20 installations that I played with were mostly to supplant
unit-record gear, which typically did not use a raised floor
configuration.  Mostly the CPU, card mulcher, printer and perhaps a 2311.

The installation auctioned off is one of the larger Model 20 setups that
I've seen.

--Chuck

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

anyone figured out what these were being used for in that building?

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 11:11 AM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data
> center
> > with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
> > work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.
>
> But with a raised floor, you can whack the tile puller down in such a
> way that it makes an enormously loud pop that startles everyone in the
> datacenter!
>
> I cannot imagine difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables in
> overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.
>
> --
> Will
>
> --
> Will
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 12:11 PM William Donzelli 
wrote:

> > I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data
> center
> > with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
> > work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.
>
> But with a raised floor, you can whack the tile puller down in such a
> way that it makes an enormously loud pop that startles everyone in the
> datacenter!
>
>
A good data center is loud enough that no one can hear that. :)


> I cannot imagine difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables in
> overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.
>

I've run lots of (heavy) 6/4 SOOW power cord on overhead cable trays, and
it is a pain, but it's way easier than pulling up half of the tiles in a
data center to figure out where the cable you're trying to pull is tangled,
just to find it stuck barely out of reach under the middle of some
production equipment.

An acceptable compromise is something like the 6 ft raised floor they have
over at NCSA.  But the typical 12" raised floors I've had to deal with
are... unpleasant.

Pat

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data center
> with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
> work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.

But with a raised floor, you can whack the tile puller down in such a
way that it makes an enormously loud pop that startles everyone in the
datacenter!

I cannot imagine difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables in
overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.

--
Will

--
Will

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Patrick Finnegan via cctalk]

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 10:39 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> They should have tried to get the raised floor too (I guess it wasn't
> included in the sale), since i) it'll be useful if they try and get the
> machine up and running, and ii) it'll probably just get scrapped. Although
> there may already be raised floor where they're planning to put it.
>

I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data center
with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.

That said, I'd bet you can pick up raised flooring cheaply locally if you
find someone who works on commercial buildings. For that era, it's either
going to be wood or concrete core, and will cost more to get rid of than it
has in scrap value (between the dumpster rental and the injured backs
moving it).

Pat

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Jos Dreesen

> And so the story continues
> https://ibms360.co.uk/

Wow, what a great recover, and a great site documenting it!

Renting temporary local storage was a great idea; it would have been hard
to get all that out of there on schedule any other way. (Alas, I don't
know any hauliers who can help them get it all back to the UK!)

They should have tried to get the raised floor too (I guess it wasn't
included in the sale), since i) it'll be useful if they try and get the
machine up and running, and ii) it'll probably just get scrapped. Although
there may already be raised floor where they're planning to put it.

Noel

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[jos via cctalk]

On 06.04.19 16:04, jos via cctalk wrote:


The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right !

https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw



Jos





And so the story continues

https://ibms360.co.uk/

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Ed C. via cctalk]

Anybody knows what happened with the German IBM 360? Was it ever picked up?
Will photos or details about the lot ever surface? Regards.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:47 PM Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 16/04/2019 22:22, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> > Clearly the pile was not purchased for scrap, so it will be
> > interesting to see where it ends up. We may never know, with the
> > secretive nature of big iron collectors..
>
> I know one of the group that bought it, but I am not sure if they are on
> the list.
>
> I believe the intention is to attempt to restore the /20 + peripherals.
> Not sure about plans for the 370. It is a huge task, but they are keen.
>
> So rest assured it won't be scrapped, and it won't disappear into a
> collection.
>
> Please don't ask me who it is. They are welcome to announce themselves
> if they wish.
>
> And it's not classic, but here's an IBM z/Series converted into a beer
> fridge:
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/NrV130
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/35y797
>
> --
> Lawrence Wilkinson lawre...@ljw.me.uk
> Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk
>
>
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Does the 3125 use a motor-generator set, like the larger
> models?  Do you have the right power to run the MG?  I know
> the MGs on the 3145 were oversized, so maybe the same unit
> could also run nthe 3158, and demanded an INSANE current
> surge when spinning up.  Also, the running current, even at
> idle, was pretty crazy, somewhere around 60 A at 208 V 3-phase.

No, the 3125 does not. Power consumption for a model 125 system is
actually not bad for a mainframe of the era.

Generally, big iron collectors are not to concerned about big copper.

--
Will

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 04/17/2019 02:30 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, William Donzelli wrote:
The 3125 would likely be near impossible to get running 
without a full

set of docs.


I think I could have access to the 3125 docs (MLM, CTM, 
ALD etc.). At least I know where they are.


Does the 3125 use a motor-generator set, like the larger 
models?  Do you have the right power to run the MG?  I know 
the MGs on the 3145 were oversized, so maybe the same unit 
could also run nthe 3158, and demanded an INSANE current 
surge when spinning up.  Also, the running current, even at 
idle, was pretty crazy, somewhere around 60 A at 208 V 3-phase.


Jon

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> I contacted the seller and asked for the docs.
> He returned some pics with a pile of BBB's.

Very good, thanks. Hopefully they will get online sometime.

--
Will

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, William Donzelli wrote:

The 3125 would likely be near impossible to get running without a full
set of docs.


I think I could have access to the 3125 docs (MLM, CTM, ALD etc.). At 
least I know where they are.


Christian

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Curious Marc via cctalk]

Great! As Will says, this acquisition price is a small part of what it costs to 
move, install and repair the system, so they got a very reasonable deal. Can 
you at least tell us if it is coming stateside, or is it staying in Europe?

Marc

 

From: cctalk  on behalf of 
"cctalk@classiccmp.org" 
Reply-To: "lawre...@ljw.me.uk" , "cctalk@classiccmp.org" 

Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 1:47 PM
To: "cctalk@classiccmp.org" 
Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system

 

On 16/04/2019 22:22, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:

Clearly the pile was not purchased for scrap, so it will be

interesting to see where it ends up. We may never know, with the

secretive nature of big iron collectors..

 

I know one of the group that bought it, but I am not sure if they are on

the list.

 

I believe the intention is to attempt to restore the /20 + peripherals.

Not sure about plans for the 370. It is a huge task, but they are keen.

 

So rest assured it won't be scrapped, and it won't disappear into a

collection.

 

Please don't ask me who it is. They are welcome to announce themselves

if they wish.

 

And it's not classic, but here's an IBM z/Series converted into a beer

fridge:

https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/NrV130

https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/35y797

 

-- 

Lawrence Wilkinson lawre...@ljw.me.uk

Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk

 

 

 

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> I believe the intention is to attempt to restore the /20 + peripherals.
> Not sure about plans for the 370. It is a huge task, but they are keen.

Did they get docs and ALDs with the pile? Or is that a big unknown
until they start actually pulling the machines out.

The 3125 would likely be near impossible to get running without a full
set of docs.

--
Will

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk]

On 16/04/2019 22:22, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> Clearly the pile was not purchased for scrap, so it will be
> interesting to see where it ends up. We may never know, with the
> secretive nature of big iron collectors..

I know one of the group that bought it, but I am not sure if they are on
the list.

I believe the intention is to attempt to restore the /20 + peripherals.
Not sure about plans for the 370. It is a huge task, but they are keen.

So rest assured it won't be scrapped, and it won't disappear into a
collection.

Please don't ask me who it is. They are welcome to announce themselves
if they wish.

And it's not classic, but here's an IBM z/Series converted into a beer
fridge:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/NrV130
https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/35y797

-- 
Lawrence Wilkinson lawre...@ljw.me.uk
Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Huh? Sorry, but I'm not made of money, and obviously, we have different
> oppinions about the value of a large system in unknown or mediocre
> condition.

It is not your fault or anything - you gave it a good try. I have been
in the same boat, bidding what I could, but losing out. I think the
hammer price was far too low.

> But more than 1000¤ is not realistic, even with some noble offerings like
> Noel's.

System/360 peripherals tend to sell for 200-1000 *each*, depending on
type and condition - and there were quite a lot of peripherals there.

This is not counting the actual processors (even if it was a stinky
little model 20 and a small (but very interesting) model 125).

>You have to consider all the efforts and time and space you need
> to invest into such an adventure.

I have been on more than a few computer rescues.

> I've seen more pictures of the site (thanks to a friend who visited the
> site), and everything is dirty and burried under the ventilation system

Eeewww...

> Yes, but that is about all of the system. There's a hip high "table" with
> yellow front and back doors, I guess that was the console, with obviously
> missing setup. No peripherals for the 370/125 apart from a
> printer-keyboard (from the number list) and a card reader, so no tape or
> disk drives. The 3340 drives are missing (some corroded modules can be
> seen on one pic).

Still, S/370 peripherals tend to be easier to get, so a system could
be assembled. The processors are always the tough parts to find.

I think the model 125 had some built-in control units as well.

> But after all, I'm not too frustrated because I know where there is a
> complete 360/20 and a complete 370/125 (with drives) still running :-)
> These systems are already in a wonderful museum.

Clearly the pile was not purchased for scrap, so it will be
interesting to see where it ends up. We may never know, with the
secretive nature of big iron collectors..

--
Will

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, William Donzelli wrote:

Looks like it went for roughly $4k USD. Obviously logistics and storage
cost play into things, but somebody got a deal. Dang. -C


Assuming the innards of the machines were not all rust buckets - yes.
I expected at least twice that, maybe triple.


Huh? Sorry, but I'm not made of money, and obviously, we have different 
oppinions about the value of a large system in unknown or mediocre 
condition. Sure, we would have been very happy if we could aquire the 
system, restore it and have it running and showing it to our visitors. 
But more than 1000¤ is not realistic, even with some noble offerings like 
Noel's. You have to consider all the efforts and time and space you need 
to invest into such an adventure.
I really hope that the buyer knows what he has and that he is capable to 
repair and run the system.


I've seen more pictures of the site (thanks to a friend who visited the 
site), and everything is dirty and burried under the ventilation system 
that fell off the ceiling as well as under debris from the crumbling 
ceiling, there must be a humidity problem. The door to the 
room goes directly to the street, the house is at least 80 years old and 
completely derelict. There is rust in the machines (e.g. I've seen 
oxidation on the spindle of the 3340 disk modules sitting on top of 
the 3125). There are power supply or whatever modules lying on the floor 
in a corner amongst other junk.



But who knows - maybe the seller was not very cooperative, or there
were some other reason why the price remained low.


The seller is an antiquarian and local pickup is within two weeks.


Oh, and with all the traffic this generated on many lists, almost no
one mentions the System/370 in the mix. I think it is the big yellow
box in the pictures.


Yes, but that is about all of the system. There's a hip high "table" with 
yellow front and back doors, I guess that was the console, with obviously 
missing setup. No peripherals for the 370/125 apart from a 
printer-keyboard (from the number list) and a card reader, so no tape or 
disk drives. The 3340 drives are missing (some corroded modules can be 
seen on one pic).


But after all, I'm not too frustrated because I know where there is a 
complete 360/20 and a complete 370/125 (with drives) still running :-) 
These systems are already in a wonderful museum.


Christian

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Looks like it went for roughly $4k USD. Obviously logistics and storage
> cost play into things, but somebody got a deal. Dang. -C

Assuming the innards of the machines were not all rust buckets - yes.
I expected at least twice that, maybe triple.

But who knows - maybe the seller was not very cooperative, or there
were some other reason why the price remained low.

I did not bid because I went through a drama like this only a few
months back and am still pretty tapped out. That, and an ocean.

Oh, and with all the traffic this generated on many lists, almost no
one mentions the System/370 in the mix. I think it is the big yellow
box in the pictures.

--
Will

--
Will

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 11:08 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > From: Christian Corti
>
> > 3710 Euro... someone with definitely too much money ... So no, we did
> > not get the system, and it probably won't go into a museum.
>
> Well, I did send you email offering to contribute, to help you all buy it.
> Did my email not make it to you?
>
> Noel
>

Looks like it went for roughly $4k USD. Obviously logistics and storage
cost play into things, but somebody got a deal. Dang. -C

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Christian Corti

> 3710 Euro... someone with definitely too much money ... So no, we did
> not get the system, and it probably won't go into a museum.

Well, I did send you email offering to contribute, to help you all buy it.
Did my email not make it to you?

Noel

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, Christian Corti wrote:

On Mon, 15 Apr 2019, it was written

you guys bidding on it then?


Yes, but only up to a certain limit.


3710 Euro... someone with definitely too much money for a system in 
unknown condition and local pickup only. So no, we did not get the system, 
and it probably won't go into a museum.


Christian

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2019, it was written

you guys bidding on it then?


Yes, but only up to a certain limit.

Christian



On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:53 AM Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


On Sun, 7 Apr 2019, P Gebhardt wrote:

wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists
within Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice
piece of computer history.


Hm, let's see if our museum can get that system - as long as the price
stays reasonable. It's not too far from Stuttgart and we could pick
it up in Nuremberg (or possibly in Herzogenaurach).

Christian

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

you guys bidding on it then?

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:53 AM Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Apr 2019, P Gebhardt wrote:
> > wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists
> > within Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice
> > piece of computer history.
>
> Hm, let's see if our museum can get that system - as long as the price
> stays reasonable. It's not too far from Stuttgart and we could pick
> it up in Nuremberg (or possibly in Herzogenaurach).
>
> Christian
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Adrian Stoness

> someones bid on them eh hopefully not a scraper

Well, a scrapper would want to pay as little as possible, so anyone
who wanted to actually save the system should be able to get it.
There are a couple of bids on it, but the amounts are derisory.

I hope Christian's museum can get it!

Noel

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 8, 2019, at 9:40 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 04/08/2019 06:10 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:
>> FWIW the tape drive is an IBM 2315 announced April 16, 1965 
>>   for 
>> use on low end S/360s.  Here is a brochure 
>>   as well as manuals at 
>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/2415/
>> 
>> 
> So, is that a capstan and pinch roller drive?  I'd kind of guess so, if 
> announced in 1965.

I don't think other companies followed that strange design approach even back 
then, though.  Never mind the pinch roller part; I could never understand why 
IBM would build vacuum columns with the oxide facing out, sliding against the 
vacuum column side walls.

> (for future readers, 2315 is apparently a typo, 2415 would fit in with 24xx 
> models being tape drives, 23xx was for disks.)

Yes, 2315 is the RK05 lookalike found in the 360 model 44.

paul

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 04/08/2019 06:10 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:

FWIW the tape drive is an IBM 2315 announced April 16, 1965 
  for use on 
low end S/360s.  Here is a brochure 
  as well as manuals at 
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/2415/


So, is that a capstan and pinch roller drive?  I'd kind of 
guess so, if announced in 1965.
(for future readers, 2315 is apparently a typo, 2415 would 
fit in with 24xx models being tape drives, 23xx was for disks.)


Jon

RE: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Tom Gardner via cctalk]

FWIW the tape drive is an IBM 2315 announced April 16, 1965 
<https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/dpd50/dpd50_chronology3.html>  for 
use on low end S/360s.  Here is a brochure 
<http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-ProdAnn/2415.pdf>  as well as manuals at 
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/2415/ 

 

Tom

 

-Original Message-
From: P Gebhardt [mailto:p.gebha...@ymail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2019 4:08 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system

 

wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists within 
Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice piece of 
computer history. 

 

--- 

Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to:  
<http://www.digitalheritage.de> http://www.digitalheritage.de

 

 

 

 

 

 

Am Samstag, 6. April 2019, 16:04:26 MESZ hat jos via cctalk < 
<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org> cctalk@classiccmp.org> Folgendes geschrieben: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right !

 

 
<https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw>
 
https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw

 

 

 

Jos

 

 

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

yay good luck

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:53 AM Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Apr 2019, P Gebhardt wrote:
> > wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists
> > within Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice
> > piece of computer history.
>
> Hm, let's see if our museum can get that system - as long as the price
> stays reasonable. It's not too far from Stuttgart and we could pick
> it up in Nuremberg (or possibly in Herzogenaurach).
>
> Christian
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2019, P Gebhardt wrote:
wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists 
within Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice 
piece of computer history.


Hm, let's see if our museum can get that system - as long as the price 
stays reasonable. It's not too far from Stuttgart and we could pick 
it up in Nuremberg (or possibly in Herzogenaurach).


Christian

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[P Gebhardt via cctalk]

wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists within 
Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice piece of 
computer history. 

--- 
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de






Am Samstag, 6. April 2019, 16:04:26 MESZ hat jos via cctalk 
 Folgendes geschrieben: 






The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right !

https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw



Jos

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

someones bid on them eh hopefully not a scraper

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 8:03 PM Jon Elson via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 04/06/2019 01:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> > Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals
> > It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era
> > disk and tape channel controllers are there too
> >
> > On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >>
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw
> >
> Oh, yeah, I did NOT recognize those dual tape drives with
> horizontal vacuum columns.
> Obviously real IBM, but I've never seen them before.
>
> Jon
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 04/06/2019 01:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals
It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era
disk and tape channel controllers are there too

On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw


Oh, yeah, I did NOT recognize those dual tape drives with 
horizontal vacuum columns.

Obviously real IBM, but I've never seen them before.

Jon

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 04/06/2019 01:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals
It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era
disk and tape channel controllers are there too


Nope, not on a model 20.  The 360/20 did not have channels, 
it had specific I/O controllers built into the CPU backplane 
for disk, tape, cards and printers, and an optional one-line 
serial interface.
So, all peripherals plugged into their specific controller 
in the /20, there were no external control units like a 
2821, 2803, 2314, etc.


The 360/20 was a VERY limited machine, max of 32KB of 
memory, but most had a LOT less.
There was RPG for it, but most were used for off-line 
spooling of cards and printing, or RJE systems.


If there is a 370 there, possibly there could be control 
units for that machine in the collection.


Jon

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 4/6/19 2:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> Does Germany harbor no gold bugs?

I have no idea what the recycling rules or industry is in Germany.
I'm guessing it's insanely strict.

The precious metal content of that little system isn't going to be
much. Maybe enough copper to make it worthwhile.

Also checked and the disc control is integral. The tapes are channel
attached.

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/6/19 2:05 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Do you have any idea of the cost to package and ship a 360
>> from there?
> 
> Less than the current value of a dead billionaire.

Does Germany harbor no gold bugs?

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

> Do you have any idea of the cost to package and ship a 360
> from there?

Less than the current value of a dead billionaire.

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/6/19 11:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals
> It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era
> disk and tape channel controllers are there too
> 
> On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw

Interesting--it really does belong in a museum--it's not something a
hobbyist would be able to usey; even if it was practical (or possible)
to get it running again.   The 2020 was "sort of" a System/360, with
halfword registers and a simplified instruction set. (To do any real
arithmetic, you pretty much had to use the packed BCD instructions).

I recognize the 2560 Mother F* Card Mulcher, which brings up some
interesting memories.

--Chuck

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk]

It all looks quite complete. Note sure about the 3xxx/5xxx stuff, maybe 
it's lurking there somewhere. The listing does say there are 6 units 1m 
x 1m, it's a bit confusing.


The Model 20 didn't need a DASD controller and could connect two 2311s 
directly. Not sure if the resulting disks were compatible with 
2841-based 2311s though.


It doesn't say whether it's possible to view the stuff, but I could make 
a trip. Maybe our office would like something to go with the z/Series 
beer fridge.


On 06/04/2019 19:09, Al Kossow via cctech wrote:

Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals
It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era
disk and tape channel controllers are there too

On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote:


https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw


--
Lawrence Wilkinson lawre...@ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page   http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/6/19 2:58 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote:
> Any appetite at the CHM?
> Marc
> 
>> On Apr 6, 2019, at 1:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals
>> It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era
>> disk and tape channel controllers are there too
>>
>>> On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw
>>

Maybe I'm seeing a different one, but isn't t his system in Nuremburg,
Germany?  Do you have any idea of the cost to package and ship a 360
from there?

bill

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

The description states the machines are in a house, and in possibly
bad condition.

Also, no shipping to the US.

--
Will

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 3:02 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk
 wrote:
>
>
> > On 6 Apr 2019, at 18:58, Adrian Stoness via cctalk  
> > wrote:
> >
> > is it me or is it sitting on a riased floor
>
> I thought that while at the same time marvelling what great condition it all 
> seems to be in, like they just turned everything off, locked the door and 
> left for 40 years.
>
> --
> adrian/witchy
> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
> t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
> w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
>
>
>
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Adrian Graham via cctalk]

> On 6 Apr 2019, at 18:58, Adrian Stoness via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> is it me or is it sitting on a riased floor

I thought that while at the same time marvelling what great condition it all 
seems to be in, like they just turned everything off, locked the door and left 
for 40 years.

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Curious Marc via cctalk]

Any appetite at the CHM?
Marc

> On Apr 6, 2019, at 1:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals
> It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era
> disk and tape channel controllers are there too
> 
>> On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw
> 

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals
It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era
disk and tape channel controllers are there too

On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote:

> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

is it me or is it sitting on a riased floor


On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 12:45 PM Mark Linimon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 06, 2019 at 10:13:51AM -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk
> wrote:
> > And looking again, some of a System/370 pile (model 125)?
>
> I hope all of this equipment can be saved, even if only for display value.
>
> mcl
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2019 at 10:13:51AM -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> And looking again, some of a System/370 pile (model 125)?

I hope all of this equipment can be saved, even if only for display value.

mcl

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

wow hope it finds a home be real shame to see that get scraped


On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 9:14 AM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> And looking again, some of a System/370 pile (model 125)?
>
> Bigger bucks.
>
> --
> Will
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:11 AM William Donzelli 
> wrote:
> >
> > Its a System/360 model 20 - and looking to be nice shape. Big bucks,
> > even if just a 20.
> >
> > --
> > Will
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:04 AM jos via cctalk 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right !
> > >
> > >
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jos
> > >
>

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

And looking again, some of a System/370 pile (model 125)?

Bigger bucks.

--
Will

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:11 AM William Donzelli  wrote:
>
> Its a System/360 model 20 - and looking to be nice shape. Big bucks,
> even if just a 20.
>
> --
> Will
>
> On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:04 AM jos via cctalk  wrote:
> >
> >
> > The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right !
> >
> > https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw
> >
> >
> >
> > Jos
> >

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

Its a System/360 model 20 - and looking to be nice shape. Big bucks,
even if just a 20.

--
Will

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:04 AM jos via cctalk  wrote:
>
>
> The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right !
>
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw
>
>
>
> Jos
>