Re: Stus-List Shaft coupler removal

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

You may want to try cooling the shaft as much as possible while
heating the coupling. 



If the coupling is cast iron or similar the coefficient of expansion
is different from 304 SS.


https://amesweb.info/Materials/Linear-Thermal-Expansion-Coefficient-Metals.aspx


While it isn't much heating both equally looks like it might make
them bind more.

Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1







 From:   Doug Mountjoy  
 To:   "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
 Sent:   6/1/2020 11:50 AM 
 Subject:   Re: Stus-List Shaft coupler removal 


I would give it a try. I have never used Mapp gas. You will want to use as hot 
of flame as possible. 



On Mon, Jun 1, 2020 at 8:21 AM Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
 wrote:


You think Map gas will be good enough? 



On Mon, Jun 1, 2020, 11:17 Doug Mountjoy via CnC-List  
wrote:


Josh, 
I used to work in a machine shop where I had to remove gears off of shafts. We 
used an acetylene torch to heat the gear fast, so the shaft didn't expand as 
fast. Using a slow heat source will heat the coupling and shaft at about the 
same rate. You want to expand the coupling faster than the shaft expands. 






Doug Mountjoy
sv Rebecca Leah 
C Landfall 39
Port Orchard yacht club___
 
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 ___
 
 Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
 
 

-- 









Douglas Mountjoy
253-208-1412
Port Orchard YC, WA
Rebecca Leah
C LandFall 39
 ___

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Re: Stus-List Source for long stainless/brass screws

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Try Pacific Fasteners in Toronto.


https://www.pacfast.com/


Mike



Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1






 From:
 To:
 Sent:   5/22/2020 9:14 PM 
 Subject:   Stus-List Source for long stainless/brass screws 




I’m having difficulty finding a supplier of the 6” screws - preferably 
stainless, but will settle for brass - to re-install the interior and exterior 
handrails on our C 30 MKI. I’m not sure if they are a no. 10 or 12. 
Recommendations would be much appreciated, preferably in Canada. 
 
David J. Morris, MBA
President, D.J. Morris & Associates Ltd.
24 St. Paul’s Place, Kingston, ON  K7M 7S3
Tel. 613-531-4429
email: djmor...@djma-ltd.com
Member: Canadian Freelance Guild
Blogging at: http://davidmorrisjourneys.wordpress.com/
 
 

 

 
 
 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
www.avast.com 
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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I have been flying both sym and asym spinnakers on Windburn for the last few 
years.
A small tack point has been added on the bow forward of everything for the 
asym. I found
that using an oversized pole works better, maybe a C 30-1 thing. Pulling the 
pole back
a bit and getting some more chute in front generates way more power than 
centerline
tacking. Enough of a difference to make up for sailing a bit deeper.


The largest chutes are 195%, about a 26.5' foot on the asym, and 26.3' max 
girth on the sym.


The load on the guy is high so the line runs through a snatch block to the 
primary winch.
It is a Samson line with a no stretch core, normal good double braid was a 
problem.
At higher wind speeds the force back through the spinnaker pole has to be 
hundreds of
pounds. I upgraded the spin track and car to the midsize Harken series. Even 
with that
it is dicey adjusting the height while flying. The Torlon bearings appear to go 
slightly
oval each season so that is on the winter maintence replace list.


When flying the asym at 100 degrees AWA or tighter in heavier winds the genoa 
does not
depower the spinnaker for take down. If it gets even slightly away from you it 
will fill, sometimes
pretty violently.


I am glad the 30-1 is so heavily over built.

Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1





 From:   Randy Stafford  
 To:   cnc-list  
 Sent:   5/15/2020 12:22 PM 
 Subject:   Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I 

Listers- 
 
A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour race 
despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating (demonstrating yet 
again that ratings don’t necessarily account for performance differences).  It 
was an eye-opening demonstration. 
 
So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on a 
30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line block, 
and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this Ranger 28, 
I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the asym) to be 
able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line 
block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using 
a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem to accommodate a furler. 
 
Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
bracket etc. to your C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of course 
wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice or 
recommendations? 
 
Thanks, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30 MK I #79 
Ken Caryl, CO 
 
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Re: Stus-List Coronavirus & Caution - The New C

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The National Yacht Club, Toronto, has closed food services and
cancelled Sailor's Night, training courses and everything else.


What are clubs doing that normally would be launching next month?


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
___

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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Let me guess, easiest take down ever.

Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1





 From:   "Della Barba, Joe"  
 To:   "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
 Sent:   12/19/2019 11:23 AM 
 Subject:   Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing 


 
 
During an informal race up the Chester with a C 40 it was just my wife on 
board with me managing the chute. We had to harden up to a beam reach for a 
section of the S-turning river right when a big gust hit  and launched 
red-white-and-blue nylon confetti all over the river L 
I had the unenviable task of informing my wife those bits of nylon were going 
to cost more than what her car was worth to replace. 
On the plus side all the luff tapes held, we had an empty triangle still 
flying! 
  
  
 
Joe Della Barba 
Coquina 
  
 
 
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Risch 
via CnC-List
 Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 11:15 AM
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Cc: David Risch 
 Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing 
  
Breakage…don’t forget the breakage -  
  
David F. Risch 
(401) 419-4650 
  
From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Dennis C. via 
CnC-List
 Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 10:48 PM
 To: CnClist 
 Cc: Dennis C. 
 Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing 
  
 
Yes, spinnakers can nearly double your racing costs.  Years ago, at the height 
of Touche's racing program, we had 0.6, 0.75 and 1.5 oz chutes, two part high 
tech Dyneema/StaSet spin sheets, Harken carbo-ratchet tweakers (twings), custom 
 chute launch bags, double pole downhaul(goes down each side of cabin and is 
trimmed in cockpit), a spinnaker halyard parking cleat, a "defraculator" (don't 
ask), light air spin sheets and probably a few more boat bucks of stuff I can't 
recall.  I'm guessing  all that adds up to somewhere around 10 big boat bucks. 
 
  
 
You don't need to dive in that deep.  A used chute, a few blocks and some old 
sheets will start you off just fine.   
 
  
 
Yes, you can race spin on a budget and still have a lot of fun.  The best way 
to experiennce spin racing and learn is on someone else's boat.  That's what I 
did.  I spent several years crewing before I bought Touche' and started my own  
racing program.   
 
  
 
Dennis C. 
 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
 
Mandeville, LA 
 
 
On Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:37 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 wrote: 
 
You are correct regarding expense--spin racing just requires more of 
everything--crew, boat, gear, sails, food, drinks, etc.  
 
  
 
I like to race in what my crew prefers and also in the most competitive arena. 
Locally at least, the JAM fleet is not competitive enough for us--except for 
those  whose high ratings in light air make it impossible to race fairly 
against them.  
 
  
 
Of course I like to win but more importantly I want race in a competitive 
fleet, even if I come in last but close to my competitors. Winning most of the 
time in our  local JAM fleet is not as much fun as busting our collective 
as...es to come in last among the best local racers.  
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
That's my story and I am sticking to it!! 
 
  
 
Charlie Nelson 
 
Water Phantom 
 
C 36 XL/kcb 
 
  
  ___

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Re: Stus-List 30 MK I Weight

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I assume that is including mast, rigging and maybe a boom vang?


Is Grenadine tiller, maybe 60 pounds lighter than a wheel?


With Windburn reasonably cleaned out but leaving all of the
requisite safety equipment on the weight is around 9500 pounds
at haulout. That is without the mast, shrouds, forestay and backstay.
With those added, a main and genoa but no crew I will guess the
minimum weight I can sail at is 10,000.

Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1







 From:   Randy Stafford  
 To:   cnc-list  
 Sent:   12/16/2019 6:44 PM 
 Subject:   Stus-List 30 MK I Weight 



I weighed Grenadine (hull #79, 1972) on a truck scale when I bought her - 
trailer with loaded boat, less empty trailer after launch.  By unloading and 
weighing all loose gear I calculated she weighed 8682 pounds with empty tanks 
and nothing aboard but her two batteries.  Her as-sailed weight is more like 
9220 pounds before crew.


Cheers,
Randy



On Dec 16, 2019, at 11:36 AM, Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
 wrote:

 


The listed weight of the 30-1 on the spec sheets is 8000#. I doubt there was 
ever one that light. The ones which have been weighed seem to hover around 
9000. After looking at Rich’s #1, I can see a lot of differences, such as his 
chainplate system. And, after seeing pictures of other boats – mine has the 
teak and holly floor throughout, a sump pump for the shower, pressure water, 
hot water heater, two batteries, and the three burner propane stove/oven which 
were accessories. 
 
>From some earlier comments by owners, I don’t think the raising of the boom 
>did much for performance, but it did relieve a lot of headaches. 
 
And I agree with Michael, the boat does quite well in 15 knots and above.
 
Gary
 


From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Michael Brown via 
CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 8:29 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
 

Also the 30-1 is far from a one design.

 

The earlier models tended to be heavier, possibly due to things

like the water tanks being made out of fiberglass versus the

later models having plastic tanks. The rudder design changed

and the boom was raised 1'. I have pictures of 30-1s side by

side with obvious differences in the spreader height.

 

At the club haul out the crane measures the boat weights. While

not striped out but somewhat equally emptied the 30-1s can be

as much as 500 lbs difference in weight to each other.

Michael Brown

Windburn

C 30-1
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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

There is not much consistency between PHRF districts on rating adjustments for
items like sail measurements or prop type. That makes comparing the class PHRF
( SP - speed potential ) and individual boat PHRF ( ASP - adjusted speed 
potential )
difficult without knowing all the details.


As an example ...



PHRF-LO has numerous adjustments, both penalties and credits. On the main sail
we measure HW ( head width ), MGT ( mid girth top - 7/8  ), MGU ( mid girth 
upper - 3/4)
and MGM ( mid girth - 1/2 ).  The hoist ( P ) and foot ( E ) are from tables.


The measured sail area ( MAmsd ) is compared to the standard sail area ( MAstd 
) to
get a ratio which then gives a penalty or credit. Of note is that the standard 
main sail
area assumes a lot of roach.




MAIN AREA Standard (MAstd): 
HWstd = 0.04 * E or 0.5’ (whichever is greater)
MGT = 0.22 * E
MGUstd = 0.38 * E
MGMstd = 0.65 * E 
MAStd= (P/8)*(2*E +3*MGMstd+1.5*MGUstd+MGTstd+0.5*HWstd) 
MAIN AREA Measured (MAmsd) : 
MAMsd= (P/8)*(2*E +3*MGM+1.5*MGU+MGT+0.5*HW) 
The ratio will provide the percent sail area for adjustment of the ASP.
https://www.phrf-lo.org/images/Meetings/MainsailTable_2017.pdf




Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




 From:   Joel Aronson  
 To:   cnc-list  
 Sent:   12/16/2019 1:49 PM 
 Subject:   Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 


PHRF of the Chesapeake gives credit for genoas under 140%.  140 is the same as 
155 for ratings purposes.    There is an adjustment for folding/feathering 
props, but I think it is only 6 seconds.


On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 1:46 PM Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
 wrote:



PHRF of the Chesapeake assumes you have a prepared boat. That means good to 
excellent sails, a crack crew, clean bottom, folding or feathering prop, and so 
forth. They used to assume a 155% genoa, but I have seen some adjustments for 
smaller or larger (class boats). They are also coming up with a double handed 
fleet, cruising classes, and so forth – some of which fall outside of PHRF. Any 
way to get boats out of their slips.
 
Gary
 


From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of CHARLES SCHEAFFER 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 9:20 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: CHARLES SCHEAFFER ; Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments
 

My two cents;  With hundreds of boats to rate, I wouldn't expect the rating 
committees to make any rating adjustment unless there was a serious complaint 
or an appeal to get their attention, and some good solid race results to make a 
judgement.  Someone I know asked for an appeal to raise his rating and was 
denied.  He had to answer a list of questions that revealed he had older sails, 
inexperienced crew, and never scrubbed the bottom of his boat during the racing 
season.  The rating assumes you have properly prepared the boat to race, have 
decent sails, and knowledgeable crew and clean bottom.  

 

Does anyone race in a fleet where they give a handicap for solo sailors?  I 
heard San Francisco gives 13 seconds. 

 

Chuck, Resolute 1989 C 34R 

 
On December 16, 2019 at 12:08 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote: 

Thank you all for the responses on this subject.  I got information I was 
looking for: 

 

* The Gulf Yachting Association PHRF Committee conducts an annual review. The 
minutes of the most recent annual review show +3/-3 adjustments based on 
performance. 

* The Narragansett Bay PHRF Committee reviews boat performance regularly.  Its 
principles state that handicaps are adjusted on the basis of the boat's 
performance. 

* At Shawn Wright's club (somewhere in British Columbia), the club handicapper 
provides a rating and it is reviewed after each series of races based on 
results. 

* In PHRF Lake Ontario, classes that consistently perform differently from 
their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year. 
___
 
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-- 



Joel 

 ___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Also the 30-1 is far from a one design.


The earlier models tended to be heavier, possibly due to things
like the water tanks being made out of fiberglass versus the
later models having plastic tanks. The rudder design changed
and the boom was raised 1'. I have pictures of 30-1s side by
side with obvious differences in the spreader height.


At the club haul out the crane measures the boat weights. While
not striped out but somewhat equally emptied the 30-1s can be
as much as 500 lbs difference in weight to each other.

Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1





 From:   Fred Hazzard  
 To:
 Sent:   12/13/2019 7:33 PM 
 Subject:   Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 



I am surprised that all the 30’s are rated the same given the dramatic 
differences in conditions they race in. San Francisco verses San Diego for 
example. 


Fred Hazzard 
S/V Fury 
C 44
Portland Or 



On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 7:08 AM Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
 wrote:



I’m guessing most of the reviews are for boats with big changes in performance. 
PHRF Chesapeake has done some, but not often. Looking around the country, the 
30-1, from hull number 1 (on the Chesapeake) to hull numbers over 600 seem to 
have the same 174 handicap (mine is number 593 and is 174 also). There may be 
exceptions, but I would doubt that Randy’s boat (assuming it has not been 
modified in major ways) would prompt a review. I’m not sure what one would do 
to a 30-1 to increase performance unless you cut a bunch of weight off the keel 
– and that would decrease it’s performance in heavy weather. At the Chesapeake 
rendezvous a couple months ago, I got to look at Rick’s number 1 and it is very 
similar to my 593, only differing is the area of chainplate attachments and 
some cabinet doors. 



 
Gary Nylander ___

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The clubs in PHRF-LO submit race results at the end of the season.
All the data gets entered and we get race analysis back. Some filtering
goes on to drop nights with wind issues, boats that raced less than
three times, races with less than three boats.


Classes that consistently perform ( calculated ASP ) differently from
their rating get reviewed by PHRF-LO Central Council every year.




Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1





 From:   Randy Stafford  
 To:
 Sent:   12/12/2019 5:36 PM 
 Subject:   Stus-List PHRF Reviews and Adjustments 


Well Lee, since you bring up PHRF reviews, let me ask you listers, how often do 
your clubs or RSAs conduct rating reviews and adjustments?  


The introduction in “the book” 
(https://www.ussailing.org/competition/offshore/phrf/phrf-handicaps/) says 
under heading "Considerations when using this listing to determine a handicap 
by averaging fleet data” that "After the initial handicap is chosen and the 
boat is raced, an empirical analysis of performance may permit a more refined 
estimate of its speed potential.”  And a review of 
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/USPHRF-Fleets-1.pdf shows 
that most clubs derive handicaps from “the book,” then review and adjust based 
on local experience. 


So, how many of y’all do that?


Cheers,
Randy



On Dec 12, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Lee Youngblood via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Dear Sir,


RE:  Randy Stafford  S/V Grenadin   C 30 MK I #79  LISTED as Hull #7


I have put in a request for an immediate PHRF review of your boat.  With over 
70 shipyard refinements, it’s clear now, why your boat is so fast, and only 
right that your rating reflect the changes you failed to document.  I expect 
the board will want to question you very carefully about the additional changes 
to your boat over and above the documented 1972 norms.  I have suggested that 
the penalty not be limited to just changing a PHRF number, but the monetary 
fine should reflect the price of the current boat you have chosen to race.  
Perhaps if you raced a newer more expensive boat, you would be disinclined to 
perpetrate this excessive winning streak, which is depressing both the local 
fleet and the attendance of future sailors to the sport.  You should hear from 
the PHRF board by the end of the month.


Regretfully, Lee   

 
Yea, cold and wet in Seattle 

 


On Dec 12, 2019, at 2:31 09AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Listers-


When I was buying my 30 MK I (HIN 30007972) four years ago, I came to the 
conclusion she was hull number 7 laid up in September 1972, I think based on 
this old post: 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2012-April/044412.html.


Meanwhile a discussion arose recently in the Facebook C Owners Group where a 
guy asked how to decode HIN 30002672.  I emailed Rob Ball hoping for 
clarification, and Rob referred me to Rob MacLachlan of South Shore Yachts.  
Rob MacLachlan said definitively I have hull #79, not hull #7.  So the HIN 
format C used before standardization on November 1st 1972 apparently didn’t 
include any digits indicating the month in which the hull was laid up.


I’ll be damned, I said.  All this time I thought I had hull #7.


Rick Bushie on this list owns 30 MK I hull #1, and his HIN plate says simply 
“30-1 1971N”.
Brian Buttigieg in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #5, he says, but hasn’t 
posted his HIN yet.
Jack Rousseau in the Facebook group owned 30 MK I hull #8 and said it was made 
in 1971.
Sean Dillon in the Facebook group owns 30 MK I hull #14 and says it’s a 1971 
boat.
Ed Levert on this list owned hull #19 and thought it was a 1971 boat.
The owners of HINs 30002672, 30005972, and 30009472 have also been heard from 
here or in the Facebook group.
Steve Guiney in the Facebook group owns hull #123 and his HIN is CCY301231172 
(CCY was later used by the Rhode Island factory but it didn’t open until 
February 1976)


It seems clear that C changed 30 MK I HIN formats at least twice over the 
production run.  And I shall change my email signature according to what I’ve 
learnt.


Cheers,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO___

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___

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___

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Re: Stus-List Fwd: Great Lakes water levels...for C

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The high water levels from 2017 and this year has lead to a lot of repair and 
replacement
costs at the club I am at, The National Yacht Club on Lake Ontario. Some of the 
infrastructure
was getting on in age and would have been replaced soon.



The high water both years flooded the basin side walkway for weeks. After the 
level went down
this year all the paver stones were lifted, new fill put in and the wall topped 
with another 8" of
timber. At the same time the water and power services were replaced. Looks nice 
but I think
it ended up at around $100,000 not including the members volunteer time.


The breakwalls, owned by the city, were completely under water at times both in 
2017 and this year.
>From most angles the club is protected but a SW storm leaves it exposed. After 
>a couple of particularly
strong storms and waves the front dock was worn out, hinges and anchor points 
damaged beyond
feasible repair. The dock was replaced this spring for around $300,000.


At the end of October a storm passed through Ontario, Quebec and out East 
leaving over a million
homes without power and causing damage. Thankfully we had just completed our 
haul out with only
a few boats left at the docks. The storm broke four boats free. A Beneteau 
First Class 12 was forced
up onto our floating docks, a CS30 broke numerous boards and a visiting power 
boat was twisted
sideways between two finger docks. The power boat had a hole punched through 
above the water line.
One of the docks is broken and sunk for a section. The club has hired divers to 
inspect the damage.
A guess is over 20 anchors, chains or mount points need repair at an estimate 
of $2,000 each.


The National did stay open and operational with decks built to address the 
flooded walkways. Other clubs
took a lot of damage and were not able to use their docks or walls for some or 
all of the season.




Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30
___

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Re: Stus-List Starting An Engine with Battery Charger Connected?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I think the NOCO chargers are switcher based rather than large transformer and 
large capacitor.
The are much lighter in weight than some brands.


I have two of the automotive line installed on Windburn in a dry location. NOCO 
also makes
IP68 marine chargers. They work fine and do seem to charge up the batteries 
quickly despite
the lower amp rating ( 7.2 ).


A friend tried out a larger one, think it was 15 amp, to see if it would solve 
a situation where
his previous charger seemed to cycle on and off when the fridge ( 12 V only ) 
ran. He said
when in voltage float mode the NOCO kept the voltage stable as noted by a fan 
not speeding
up and down.


The larger units have a "Jump Charge" button that will start charging an almost 
flat battery.
I think it acts as a constant current source for a few minutes, enough to get 
some charge
back into the battery.




Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1







 From:   Josh Muckley  
 To:   C List  
 Sent:   10/31/2019 1:27 PM 
 Subject:   Re: Stus-List Starting An Engine with Battery Charger Connected? 


As far as I know all the modern chargers have charge capacitors that will 
create a pretty good draw when first turned on until the caps are charged.  A 
well designed unit should not be connecting to the battery until the caps are 
charged and the output voltage is stable.  I would try starting the charger and 
taking voltage readings at the battery. Then try starting the charger with the 
battery disconnected.  You might also try with the battery connected and 
already full charged (use a portable automotive charger to get them full first).


It could be a old 20amp breaker that is popping early. 



Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD 
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Re: Stus-List Survey About Racing

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Comments below


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




 From:   Randy Stafford  
 To:   cnc-list  
 Sent:   6/27/2019 10:16 AM 
 Subject:   Stus-List Survey About Racing 

Hello Listers, 
 
I’d like to conduct a little survey about racing, tapping into the broad 
experience, geography, and boat diversity represented on this list. 
 
What prompted this is a discussion in my club about ratings, which expanded 
into a discussion about courses, tactics, and relative performance.  I’d like 
to get perspective from the collective knowledge on this list, to add into that 
discussion. 
 
So here are some fairly objective survey questions, for those of you who race 
your boats: 
 
1. Where do you race? Lake Ontario


2. What wind conditions are the rule and exception there? 
6 - 14 knots in the spring. Lots of light or dead air in the summer.
Frequent storms, squalls may hit 40 - 60 knots briefly. When the
lake is cold there can be wind shear.


3. What kind of courses do you sail? 
W/L club races and at regattas, short ( < 20 nm ) medium ( < 100 nm )
and one long ( Lake Ontario 300 ) course race,


4. What sail plan do you fly? Mainly flying sail. 195% spinnakers both asymm 
and symm from a pole.


5. What model of boat are you racing? C 30-1 < 506


6. What PHRF rating do you race with? (please list adjustments) 
PHRF-LO FS: 175 NFS: 199  credit of 4 sec/mile for the main, -3 sec/mile 
penalty for 195% spin.
Note that PHRF-LO adjusts based on main sail area but calculates the standard 
area using a
default with lots of roach. My main does touch the backstay, lightly hangs up 
on tacks.


7. What is your boat’s fastest point of sail? 
Surfing under spinnaker. The C 30-1 is difficult to get over hull speed so 
even reaching
at 30+ knots doesn't get close to planning ;-)


8. Is there leapfrogging in your races, or do boat-for-boat positions stay 
fairly constant? 
Some of the division have a wide rating spread, the fast boats pull ahead and 
stay there.
With light summer wind and the random wind hole lead reversals are common.


9. How many boats are you usually competing against? As little as 4, as much as 
11.


10. In general, how well do you perform in racing results? 
Windburn even for a C 30-1 is heavy. We are disadvantaged in light air, do 
well
in heavy air. As a guess 75% of the time we are in the top 3. On our best days 
we
have taken first at the Youngstown Levels, Lake Ontario 300 and LOSHRS races.


 
And now a few more subjective questions: 
 
11. Do you think your boat’s rating assumes you’ll race it on a particular kind 
of course with a particular sail plan? 
PHRF-LO states that the rating is suitable ( paraphrasing it here ) for 
windward leeward course of one mile legs in
winds of 4 to 18 knots. No data from triangular or course racing is analyzed 
for rating reviews. 


12. How do you think your local rating authority determines the rating for your 
boat? 
Initially a new boat ( class ) goes through an assessment at a handicapper's 
district meeting. We discuss
everything including US PHRF data, sister classes and comparable. We make a 
best estimate then the
rating is adjusted by -6 sec/mile "Protect The Fleet" for the first year until 
race data is available.


13. What do you think are the most important factors in your performance 
against your competition? 
Making the best of a heavy C 30-1. Recently the addition of North Sails 3Di 
155% raw genoa and
main has helped a lot in the light wind.


14. What do you think are the most important race tactics for beating your 
competition? 


Calling lay lines, watching for shifts, avoiding wind holes


 
Thank you very much in advance for your responses to this survey. 
 
Best Regards, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
 
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Re: Stus-List 30 MK I PHRF Rating

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Some notes on the C 30 rating history at PHRF Lake Ontario.


1985 FS:168 NFS:168


Record created in the current database


1996 FS:162 NFS:162


Handicap adjustment by Central Council based on performance history


2000 FS:162 NFS:180


+18 Disconnect of NFS-SP from FS-SP rating


2006 FS:168 NFS:186


PHRF-LO did a blanket +6 sec/mile adjustment to all classes, more inline
with other PHRF regions


2010 FS:174 NFS:186


Performance based review by Central Council


2012 FS:174 NFS:195


A VPP analysis of "NFS-Delta" using a formula from Jim Teeters
changed the delta from 12 sec/mile to 21 sec/mile. All classes
were reviewed ( that fly spinnaker )




Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1







 From:   Randy Stafford  
 To:   cnc-list  
 Sent:   6/11/2019 3:13 PM 
 Subject:   Re: Stus-List 30 MK I PHRF Rating 



Thanks y’all for your interesting comments on this.


I got my new rating yesterday and it came back 180.  The handicapper wrote in 
the “notes and clarifications” section of my RSA’s PHRF certificate form the 
following: "There are no comparables listed in US Sailing for this model of 
boat in the Rocky Mountain Region. This is a compromise between lake sailing 
ratings of 174 at Lake Norman, Oklahoma and Texoma, TX; and the previous rating 
for this boat of 186/198. Mitigating factors are: 1. +10% above base weight, 
even when empty; 2. The lighter air pressure at altitude which makes it even 
more difficult to move a heavy boat.”


The 10% over base weight remark was from a discussion she and I had on 
“brochure weight” (8000 lbs for a 30 MK I as on sailboatdata.com) versus actual 
weight.  I’ve actually weighed my boat on a truck scale, and weighed all her 
gear.  I calculate she weighs about 8682 pounds with empty tanks and no gear 
aboard.  So with full fuel tank, anchor & rode, sails, etc., her as-raced 
weight is closer to 9000 pounds before crew weight.  According to the Schell 
regression formula, that 1000-pound difference in brochure versus actual weight 
translates to at least six seconds difference in rating, so the handicapper 
gave that to me.


In my RSA we don’t really have the local politics as badly as in some other 
areas apparently.  The handicapping committee is one volunteer, and the 
position turns over every few years.  I think most of our handicappers have 
tried to do a reasonably fair job with the information they have available.  
And none of them have been from the sailing industry.


That said, there are a couple boats in my fleet in my club that seem to have 
gift ratings.  There’s a Catalina 25 to which I give 43 sec/nm, and a Cal 22 to 
which I give 48 sec/nm.  In light air with everybody executing well, I might 
not beat them uncorrected, let alone corrected.  Both boats seem to be rated at 
least 12 seconds slower in my RSA than in most others RSAs in the US, and I’m 
sure their owners would strongly resist lowering their ratings, because they 
win a lot on corrected time.  I had a half-dozen races last year where I took 
line honors and they corrected over me.


My main competition is a pair of Catalina 27s and a Ranger 26, all well-sailed. 
 In heavy air the Ranger 26 can’t stay in control; he has to depower way before 
I do.  A couple times a season when the wind is really up, I’ll have the joy of 
beating the fleet by three minutes in a half-hour race.  But that’s the 
exception to the rule where I sail.  And unfortunately for me the Ranger 26’s 
rating didn’t change this year, whereas mine did - six seconds faster.


I accept that PHRF is an imperfect system.  At the end of the day, I’m out 
there on Wednesday nights to have fun.  That said, I like the competition, and 
I’d like it to be as fair as possible.


Cheers,
Randy
S/V Grenadine
C 30-1 #7
Ken Caryl, CO



On Jun 11, 2019, at 6:27 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List  
wrote:

 
 

Hi Randy
 
When comparing boats across different areas make sure you look at other boats 
in those areas as well.  Pacific NW tends to rate most of their fleet 9 – 12 
sec/mile  slower than most other areas … not just the C 30.
 
Also look at the prevailing wind conditions in the areas.  Northern California 
is known to be windy whereas LI Sound is known for fairly light winds.  A C  
30-1 would perform much better in the windier areas and should have a faster 
rating in Northern California than in LIS for example.
 
Yes PHRF sucks.  However all of the systems suck.  Some suck worse than others. 
 ORR, IMS, IRC, etc …require measurements of each boat.  It is difficult to  
find a measurer and quite expensive to get a boat measured.  However a 
measurement rule seems to be a lot fairer for point to point distance racing 
than a single number system.  You can have a race like Marblehead to Halifax 
that is hundreds of miles of mostly  reaching.  In that sort of race a big long 
waterline boat that is horrible at W/L short leg races will tend to do very 
well as it would be on its best point of sail most of the race and therefore 

Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Not much in the PHRF-LO Handicapper's manual on the topic. It is covered in
meeting notes from 2008 and 2009.



WPL penalty – There will no longer be a penalty for oversized Whisker Pole 
lengths.


2009 Spring Meeting.


https://www.phrf-lo.org/index.php/about-us/meetings/central-council/205-2009-spring-meeting


It would be nice if there was some definitive statement in the current 
documentation but I
do not see any.



Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:45:53 + 
From: "Hoyt, Mike"  
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  

 
Michael 
 
Check the PHRF-LO bylaws carefully.  In PHRF-NS the whicker pole is considered 
to be a spinnaker pole which is limited to J.  You may wish to look in a 
definitions section if one is available.  I have been involved with 
handicapping for many years in our region and this is my understanding of how 
most areas do it.  However I do know there are some areas that have separate 
limit for whisker pole than for spinnaker pole that is permitted to be longer 
than J ? I just cannot recall at this time which areas those are 
 
Mike 
Persistence 
Halifax, NS 
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Re: Stus-List Downwind sailing- Whisker pole length and height

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I race handicapped by PHRF Lake Ontario which has no rating adjustment for 
whisker pole length.  I picked
up a Forespar Line Control which goes out to 22', a fair bit for a 30' boat.


In light air, 4 knots TWS, setting the sails perpendicular to the wind works as 
well as anything else I have tried.
That has the pole low at both ends, barely above the lifelines.


At a higher wind speed the common advise is to trim the genoa so the wind flows 
around it as opposed to
it being a barn door. That will bring the pole back so it is more perpendicular 
to the wind, usually the
inboard end up the mast a bit and the leach pointing into the wind. A bit like 
trimming a spinnaker.


Forespar has a diagram here:


https://www.forespar.com/pdf/F6.1-whisker-pole-brochure.pdf


Not having the leech bouncing around helps. For me that means adjusting the 
inboard end to get enough
down pressure.


For a genoa with a 21' LP I will use all 22' of whisker pole in light air and 
about 18' in moderate air.
In heavier air I switch to the spin pole which is 14.5' ( oversized and I take 
a penalty ). I can tell it is not optimal but works OK.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 12:42 PM 
Cc: David Knecht  

  
 
We race non-spinnaker class and a few years ago I got an extendable whisker 
pole for the genoa.  I am unsure about optimal settings for pole height and 
length.   I suspect it is sometimes suboptimal because I have noticed some 
boats able to carry the genoa poled out at much closer angles than I have 
achieved.  Presumably the optimal pole angle is near perpendicular to the 
apparent wind.  It seems that extending the pole flattens the sail to some 
extent but I suspect it is more complicated than that.  Height I have no idea.  
Any general rules of thumb? 
 
  
 
 Related to this, the VMG chart I have from C  has optimal VMG downwind 
apparent angle of about 140-145? true.  Are those numbers +spinnaker, 
-spinnaker standard or -spinnaker wing on wing with whisker pole?  Thanks- Dave 
 
    
 
S/V Aries 
 
1990 C 34+ 
 
New London, CT 
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Re: Stus-List Lady Down...

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I would be interested in some opinions on the use of stands. I am on the Launch 
& Haulout
team at the club I am at, chair for a few years. We have required cradles for 
sailboats and
have accepted stands for power boats by exception only.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1

 
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 14:38:32 -0500 
From: "Matthew L. Wolford"  

We had four large powerboats fall off jack stands in Erie.  The cradles all 
fared okay. 
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Re: Stus-List Older GPS units may have issue after April 6, 2019

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I would hope anything made since the last time this happened is OK.



https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/08/biztech/articles/23gps.html



There was a related problem, confusion of whether the 1024 weeks were numbered 
as
0 - 1023 or 1 - 1024.  A long standing tech joke, if it is 0 - 1023 it is a 
software programmer,
if it is 1 - 1024 it is a hardware designer.



Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1






Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 16:29:11 -0700 
From: "Dennis C."  

 
I just read an article that GPS time will be reset on April 6, 2019.  That 
may affect older GPS units. 
 
https://liliputing.com/2019/02/old-gps-devices-may-stop-working-properly-in-april.html
 
 
I must admit ignorance on the substance of this atricle and what it means. 
Anybody got a decent understanding of this situation? 
 
I have an old Garmin 128, circa 1999, which I use as a back up to my newer 
Garmin.  I'd hate to lose accuracy on the older unit. 
 
Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 
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Re: Stus-List Mast Wedge Help

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

After trying various things including nothing I have been happy with thick 
rubber pads.
I purchase a couple of feet from a roll and trimmed it.


This may be the product, I think there was a choice of thicknesses at the store:


https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/heavy-duty-checker-plate-rolled-rubber-mat-by-the-foot-/A-p8681660e


My thoughts were that the C 30-1 mast is stiff and even with a lot of 
pressure on the backstay
it did not bend much with the mast blocked hard in the collar. There was some 
bend but more just
pulling the masthead back inducing rake rather than putting a curve into the 
mast.


When the mast is stepped I can leave the strips out, center and tune 
everything, then may adjust
the heel to center the mast in the collar. The strips are in two pieces and run 
in a semicircle at the
front and back leaving room for the hold down strips. The mat thickness I am 
using, slightly less
than a quarter inch, will slide in from the bottom by forcing the mast back 
then forward.




When checking the mast you may want to take the mast top casting off, held on by
eight machine screws. The original sheaves are aluminum with a pressed oilite 
bronze
bearing. If the bearing wears or crushes out the sheaves can lean, wear or jam. 
I replaced
the bearings and found them to have worn significantly in two years. I replaced 
them
with "hard plastic" Acetal sheaves that are wire rated though I have all rope 
halyards.
I drilled the centers out to a larger diameter and made a plain bearing 
arrangement
with another Acetal donut forced over the stainless axel. That has lasted years 
with
no wear and is much easier to hoist with.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1






Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 21:58:27 -0500 
From: "Steven A. Demore"  
 
I had my C 30 MK1 dismasted yesterday to do some work on it.  The boat 
came with no wedges in the deck collar, so I made some one day, just to get 
through summer.  While taking down the mast yesterday, I asked the rigger 
what kind of wedges it should have.  He said he wasn't sure whether C 
came with wedges, or a metal spacer.  Does anybody know what the factory 
used to support the mast through the deck? 
 
Also, while I am at it. Any suggestions on anything I should be checking on 
the mast?  I'm replacing the wiring, going to LED lights, replacing all of 
the running rigging, new blocks and sheaves, and checking out the step.  The 
boom has the internal blocks and wire for tensioning the foot of the main, 
but I don't know whether that is accessible for maintenance or not. 
 
  
 
One last thing.  I was planning to mount steps (the triangular aluminum 
ones) on the sides of the mast.  The rigger recommended against it because 
of the number of holes in the mast.  Anybody have thought on whether a 
series of small holes (1/8, 3/16??) would weaken the mast? 
 
 
 
Thanks, 
 
Steve 
 
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Re: Stus-List yoga mat winterizing

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I see on the weekend Ottawa had a couple of notable events.
It was the coldest capital city in the world, beat out Helsinki, Moscow
and "Ulaanbaatar" ( Mongolia ). It broke a 100 year record for
the coldest temperature during a snow storm.


I was watching Windy and various sites, quite the temperature
gradient from Ontario done through to New Jersey. The warmth
from the gulf stream had Atlantic City up to 56F noon on Sunday
while closer to Lake Ontario is was well below 0F.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 21:31:12 + 
From: Marek Dziedzic  

Joe, 
 
if you can keep above freezing temperature in a boat with a 600 W heater, you 
don?t have artic temperatures (;-). 
 
Here, for the last 5 days, we hit 15 (F) once, but mostly we are hovering below 
0 F, mostly in the minus teens. No insulation would keep the boat above 
freezing. I hardly can keep myself from freezing and I use stuff better than a 
yoga mat (;-). 
 
Marek 
Ottawa, ON 
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Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3)

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Thanks for pointing out the case study, looks to be pretty clear on the topic. 
I had asked
about the use of a reaching strut and was told it was an outrigger. Maybe the 
ISAF
findings are not applicable here, no idea. I will check again and specifically 
point out that case.


So leaning out as long as the torso is not outside of the lifelines ( RRS 48.2 
) and holding a
sheet is fine.


There may be an reaching strut project in my future.




I didn't see your update before I emailed. I have the list set to digest mode 
so I get some delay
in seeing everyone's emails. I don't always check them promptly either, 
sometimes busy or away.
I do enjoy them, always informative. Or funny. Or both.




Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2018 17:32:28 -0500 
From: "Matthew L. Wolford"  
 
One last thing on this topic: there are two reported cases indicating that a 
person leaning out holding a sheet is also not an outrigger. 
 
From: Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List  
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2018 12:09 PM 


Cc: Matthew L. Wolford  
Subject: Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement (now RRS 50.3) 
 
Michael: 
 
    I assume that you sent your note below about there being no exception for 
reaching struts before I sent my note about Case 97.  I don?t know who decides 
cases arising under the Rules these days (I used to follow Cases and US Sailing 
Appeals), but it used to be the ISAF Racing Rules Committee (International 
Sailing Federation).  I believe the organization is now called World Sailing or 
something.  When a Case is decided, that establishes how a Rule is to be 
interpreted unless there is a contrary US Sailing prescription (on my side of 
the pond).  I assume that Canada has a similar prescription process. 
 
    After your note about reaching struts yesterday, I searched 
RacingRulesOfSailing.org to see if any cases had been decided under Rule 50.3 
about reaching struts being a prohibited outrigger.  I found Case 97, which 
interpreted the term ?outrigger? as used in Rule 50.3 to not prohibit ?jockey 
poles? because they redirect the guy, not a sheet or a sail.  A jockey pole is 
the same thing as a reaching strut, so I do not understand your follow-up 
comment below that you ?have not found an exception.?  Case 97 clearly 
interprets the term ?outrigger? as not applying to jockey poles (i.e., reaching 
struts).  Am I missing something? 
 
    Matt Wolford 
    C 42 Custom 
 
From: Michael Brown via CnC-List  
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 5:55 PM  

 
The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any 
disclaimers 
for a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving 
consideration as opposed to 
something that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks 
like it falls 
under the outrigger classification. 
 
Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out 
because outriggers 
are not permitted usually draws a blank stare also. 
 
Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance 
of 
RRS 60.4?  I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht 
Club, so 
took on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the 
rules was 
required first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 
90 
PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world 
champions 
in the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced 
before. 
 
It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it 
doesn't make sense. 
 
Michael Brown 
Windburn 
C 30-1 
 
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Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The topic of outriggers came up a while back and I asked specifically about any 
disclaimers
for a reaching strut. I agree that it is a safety and rigging saving 
consideration as opposed to
something that improves performance. I have not found an exception so it looks 
like it falls
under the outrigger classification.


Telling racers that they cannot lean over the lifelines and hold a jib out 
because outriggers
are not permitted usually draws a blank stare also.


Somewhat related are other clubs appointing a technical committee in observance 
of
RRS 60.4?  I am the PHRF handicapper at a Toronto club, the National Yacht 
Club, so
took on that role also. No protests so far, I felt that gentle education of the 
rules was
required first. We have about 200 senior members ( skippers ) and got just over 
90
PHRF certificates issued this year. Experience levels range from the world 
champions
in the Beneteau First 36.7 OD, first in IRC and LO300 to never have raced 
before.


It makes deciding on what to enforce a bit difficult. Particularly when it 
doesn't make sense.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1








Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 17:05:25 -0500 
From: "Matthew L. Wolford"  

I was unaware of this Rule, which I just reviewed.  It doesn?t make sense to me 
to bar a reaching strut, but it sure looks like you are correct. 
 
From: Michael Brown via CnC-List  
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2018 4:16 PM 

 
I had taken it from the RRS 50.3 that a reaching strut in not allowed in a 
race. 
 
Michael Brown 
Windburn 
C 30-1 
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Re: Stus-List Reaching Strut Pole replacement

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I had taken it from the RRS 50.3 that a reaching strut in not allowed in a race.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1







Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2018 13:53:44 -0500 
From: "Matthew L. Wolford"  

 
Yes, the inboard end attaches to a fitting (usually a ring) on the mast.  There 
should be a fitting on each side, as you noted.  The guy runs through the 
outboard end of the strut.  The purpose is to improve the sheeting angle on a 
pole as it is let forward.  (By the time the pole is near the headstay, the guy 
is pulling almost straight back.)  An added benefit is that it prevents 
unwanted stress on the stanchions due to the guy pushing inward.  Given the 
large loads on my boat, it comes in very handy.  If I didn?t race the boat from 
time to time, it would probably stay in the storage locker. 
 
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Re: Stus-List Shackle for Genoa Sheets?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

That was a poor wording on my part. We have released under
load a few times due to overrides or whatever else happens on
long races when we get tired. Once in the dark I managed to
pull the jib sheet and spin sheet through the turning block.


For headsail changes we put a temporary line on a sail, hoist the
new sail and move the sheet to it then trim in. The old sail may
get released under load.


Michael Brown 

Windburn

C 30-1 



 
 
From: dwight veinot   
 
Open under load...what hapens to the clew. We do lots of headsail changes 
on yhe go the old way i guess never released the clew under load. Can?t 
imagine how that wotks out good still learning i guess 
 
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Re: Stus-List Shackle for Genoa Sheets?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I was surprised at the loads, and have no idea why there is a difference
to the various load calculators and postings.


Windburn has ARCO 40s as the primary winches. They are similar to the new
offerings with a 6.3:1 second gear ratio and a 3.25" drum diameter.



http://www.arco-winches.com/products/winch/stdi


With a 10" winch handle the power ratio would be


10 x 6.3 / 1.625 = 38.8


Am I correct in extrapolating that with 50 lbs force on the handle 

there would be about 2000 lbs force on the line?


At high winds and full load my best guess is I am developing over
100 lbs of force on the winch handle, hence my guess at 4000 lbs.




My headsail is in the 300 sq ft range and even at 15 knots the load
on the winch handle is well over 20 lbs.


I don't know what the discrepancies are. I originally used calculators
to come up with a load rating and spec'd the rigging to match.
We wore out the turning block in the first year. The 3/8" standard
doublebraid sheet failed at the clew, though we were pounding into
high wind and waves for hours. I upgraded to New England VPC
3/8, good for 6000 lbs, and broke the core where it turns on the
genoa lead car.


>From the Harken site a 300 sq ft sail at 8 knots would have a 83 pound load.
I have no problem pulling 83 pounds and there is no way I can fully pull
in my #1 by hand at 8 knots. If I really got my back into it and pulled as hard
as I could I might get well over 200 pounds, good for 13 knots on the Harken
site. There is no possibility of me trimming the jib by hand at 13 knots.


Am I getting something wrong?


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1






From: "Dennis C."   
 
300 sq. ft of headsail at 20 knots true is about 520 pounds load. 
 
https://www.harken.com/content.aspx?id=9096 
 
Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 
 
On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 7:08 PM bwhitmore via CnC-List  
wrote: 
 
> 4000 lbs of load on a 30 ft. C?  On what do you base this? 
> 
> Sorry if I seem incredulous... 
> 
 

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 22:46:23 -0500 
From: "Matthew L. Wolford"  

 
That didn?t sound right to me, either. 
 
From: bwhitmore via CnC-List  
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2018 8:07 PM 


4000 lbs of load on a 30 ft. C?  On what do you base this? 
 
Sorry if I seem incredulous... 
 
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Re: Stus-List Shackle for Genoa Sheets?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I am using the Tylaska #8 J-Locks with a core dependent eye splice.
The sheets gets loaded over 4000 pounds but I have not had an issue.
The lock will open under load and we have done sail changes in
high winds without having to tack or de-power.


They may have more appeal for racing where a bowline weakens the
load value of the line and sail changes in inclimate weather always seems
to be part of the fun. Not for everyone but they do work.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




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Re: Stus-List Winch grease

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I have wondered if yearly maintenance was normal.


In 2017 Windburn covered over 2,000 nm, almost all racing.
We keep the heavy #1 up to at least 18 knots, sometimes with gusts to 22+.
Overall there is a lot of use of the winches. When under heavy load the
winches are easier to use with yearly maintenance. Not much different
under lighter winds.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 13:04:28 -0400 
From: dwight veinot  
 
You guys seem to have lube problems with you winches that i have not 
experienced. My winches have been cleaned and lubed only once in 15 years 
and they work and sound just fine. Last time about 5 years ago I used 
Harken white winch grease and Harken winch pawl oil. Still worin smooth and 
sounding good. Maybe i am just lucky all Barient winches 
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Re: Stus-List Winch grease

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

A calcium based greases are among the more water resistant offerings.
At low speed and medium pressure calcium sulphonate is a good choice.


I contacted Shell and one of their product specialists called me back. After
a discussion of the properties of marine winches she recommended looking
at the Shell SRS 2000 line ( now renamed Gadus I think ). I got the Extreme
version which is calcium suphonate based, $12 for a standard sized grease
gun tube. I would expect it to be a lifetime supply.


After two years the grease is holding up better than anything I have previously
tried, which includes the Lewmar/Harken greases. Previously I would rebuild the
primary winches every year and have a mid season tear down to check and maybe
add some grease. I took the winches apart after a season and it looked good, 
better
than they usually would look mid season.


There is information on the web if you are interested. Note it is a specific 
version.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 01:45:13 + (UTC) 
From: Chris Graham  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Stus-List Winch grease 
Message-ID: <63525769.358141.1541295913...@mail.yahoo.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 
 
I?m performing maintenance on my Barient 18 winches and was wondering if there 
was a preferred machine oil and grease? The Lewmar grease seems expensive and 
I?d have to order it.? 
Chris? 
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Re: Stus-List Sail Plan and Heavy Weather

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I did a race in 25 - 32 knots TWS, gusts to 47.


Highest I saw this year was for about 90 seconds or so in a squall,
readings to 52 knots steady. It increased, guessing over 55,
but I couldn't read the instruments anymore. During the peak
the boat was shuddering very noticeably.


Toughest part is getting a clean tack. The boat loses too much
speed coming up into the wind and then wants to fall off too far.
A bad tack will lose a lot of ground.


North designed for me a #3 of around 90% to use in 22 - 28 TWS.
They got the design dialed in. With a reefed main the helm is balanced.
I can come up a bit to depower in the gusts, or trim down for speed.


I have a heavy #2, a couple of #3 that came used or with the boat.
None of the combinations work well despite one of the other #3 being
about the same size. Previous to getting the North #3 we would retire
from a race at 30+ knots. I didn't feel safe handling the boat and we
did not sail well.



Now all the excitement is docking ...


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 11:30:07 -0300 
From: dwight veinot  

 
I hope you guys are all talking apparent wind strength 
 
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Re: Stus-List Filling diesel tank Urban myths?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The volume in the fuel tank is fairly small, most of our boats it would be less 
than 0.1 cubic meter.
At around 90 degrees Fahrenheit that would be about 1/10 of an ounce of water 
in the air in an
empty tank.



http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm


If the temperature starts around 60F and drops to 20F about 0.03 ounces of 
water would condense
in a 0.1 cubic meter tank. Air changes volume about 3% for a 40F temperature 
swing, so per month
another 0.03 ounces of water might get in.



Note that the numbers assume the maximum amount of water in the air, or 100% 
relative humidity.
If the winter relative humidity is 50% then cut the numbers above in half.



Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 10:37:21 + 
From: "Della Barba, Joe"  
Subject: Re: Stus-List [EXTERNAL]   Re:  Filling diesel tank  Urban 
     myths? 

In Maryland we have high humidity and large temperature changes during the 
winter. I had to rebuild the wood supports for my fuel tank because so much 
water would condense on it the wood rotted! 
The aluminum tank is frequently covered with drops of water on the outside 
during the winter. 
Joe 
Coquina 
 
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 5:34 PM 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Filling diesel tank Urban myths? 
 
I?m not in total disagreement, but the urban myth may be more of a Great White 
North myth. In that, when it gets cold out it stays cold until spring.  But 
otherwise, when it get cold at night and warms up in the day, it best to keep 
the tank either full or empty. 
 
The reason is that a metal tank with some liquid will dehumidify the air inside 
(and outside) the tank during the daytime when ambient air starts to warm 
relative to the night time lows.  Think about a tank half full after a cold 
night.  The cold fuel is a big heat sink and will keep the tank fuel and metal 
container much colder than the warming daytime air.  Warming air + cold metal 
surface = condensation, i.e. cold sweat.  A full tank has less condensing 
surface and less air inside.  An empty Aluminum tank will warm and cool with 
ambient air so there will be little if any condensation.  I guess one could 
close up the tank (i.e. close of breather line) to try to eliminate the 
reoccurring condensation, but that?s likely not as easy as it sounds (and end 
up being a bigger PITA than filling the tank). 
 
With any luck, Global Warming will rid the Canadians of some urban myths?. 
 
- 
Paul E. 
1981 C Landfall 38 
S/V Johanna Rose 
Fort Walton Beach, FL 
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Re: Stus-List Tree Trimming

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 10:44:23 -0600 
From: Randy Stafford  

Subject: Re: Stus-List Tree Trimming 

 
Thank you all for your replies and suggestions, some of which were off-list. 
 
Responding to points in the order received: 
 
1. "Is it safe to sate that the main mast damage is from the screws ripping out 
of the mast itself?? 
The main mast damage IMO is the indentation from the aft edge of the spreader 
bracket plate.  The screw holes are also damaged, but fixable. 




Hi Randy,


  did the spreader brackets have a large bolt going through them and across 
inside the mast?
I believe mine does and assumed it was handling most of the load.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
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Re: Stus-List Stay Tension Number Value

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Loos PT-2 and 1/4" wire?


Just a starting point put uppers at 36 and lowers at 32 on the gauge.


If you get out on a windy day with normal sail plan point up to where you are 
comfortable
and check how much tension is left in the lee shrouds. They should still be 
snug but will flex
with some pressure. If they are still rock hard you can ease the shrouds, if 
they are flopping
you need to tighten them.


Note that a soft keel step or flexing deck affect shroud tension under load.


The theory is that you want to keep the mast vertical. If the lee shrouds are 
flopping it
means the mast has leaned over a bit, may be placing a load at the deck partner 
or at
the step.


If possible site up the mast when under load. It should be straight, ie no 
bending side to side.
If the middle is bent to the lee tighten the lowers a bit, if the head is 
falling off tighten the uppers.


Despite cruising there is a benefit in getting the tension correct.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1






Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 10:35:10 -0400 
From: T Smyth  

 
I?m pretty sure I saw these at some point but cannot locate them again in the 
archives: 
I am looking for the recommended number value for (cruising) stay tensions for 
a C 30 MKI (1974). 
 
There is widespread, ample discussion of tuning stays on the Internet. I am 
interested now in specific recommended tensions for a C 30 MKI. 
 
Thanks in advance for your recommendations! 
 
Tom 
Augusta (GA) Sailing Club 
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Re: Stus-List Galvanic corrosion

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I was mainly answering Mike but adding to your question also. I am not clear on 
what is being
measured, assumed something to ship's ground.


I have not understood the need to ground an otherwise electrically isolated 
bronze through hull
or seacock though I think at one point it was recommended.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 18:07:44 + 
From: "Della Barba, Joe"  

 
I am still not clear on how the voltage is being measured and between what 
points. 
I have bronze thru-hulls that are not wired to anything. If I measured between 
them and the lead keel or the engine with the stainless shaft, I am sure I 
would read a voltage, they are dissimilar metals in salt water. Absent me 
wiring up the voltmeter, the thru-hulls have no connection to anything else and 
would not corrode. If you do have all these thru-hulls wired to ground, as is 
done on some boats, you now have a battery. You need to be sure there is a zinc 
involved in there somewhere and it had better have a good connection so that 
the zinc is the part of the battery corroding. 
IMHO and also the article referenced in another post, I like to make sure my 
seacocks and thru-hulls are NOT grounded. This eliminates the issue of poor 
contact to zincs and prevents the boat wiring from being a path for leakage 
between boats on one side of you and boats on the other, which is something a 
zinc will have a hard time saving you from. 
Joe 
Coquina 
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Re: Stus-List Galvanic corrosion (Della Barba, Joe)

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

You could try reading current with your multimeter instead of voltage. Small 
stray voltages
likely exist when measuring between lead and SS even in fresh water but I doubt 
they will
sustain much current.


Just as an example of magnitude very roughly if there was a current of 1 amp 
continuously
in normal soil it would corrode about 20 lbs of steel in a year.


If you are reading less than 0.5 milliamp I would say those two surfaces are 
not going to have
much corrosion between them. If you are seeing over a milliamp then there is an 
issue.
The circuit requires two paths, the dissimilar metals in water and then 
something on the boat
connecting them together. Some advice has been to connect the mast, standing 
rigging and
keel together but do not ground them to the boats electrical system. That may 
be difficult
if items like the VHF antenna is mounted to a metal bracket on the mast. You 
can test for
this by measuring the resistance between the mast and ship's ground. Anything 
under
10 ohms would indicate a connection.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
 




Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:41:43 + 
From: "Della Barba, Joe"  

 
Voltage readings between what and what? 
 
 
Joe Della Barba 
Coquina 

Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 7:25 PM 

Hi Alan 
 
The readings I posted are at anchor in the Thousand Island area.  I almost 
never plug in during the cruising season.  I only use shore power to charge the 
batteries during winter layup when the solar and wind are removed, every 6 to 8 
weeks 
 
So today I did more testing.  I disconnected the positive cable for the start 
battery and I still saw 0.02V at the prop shaft.  So I ruled out that as an 
issue.  I disconnected the battery charger and still saw voltage.  Next I took 
the wind generator out of the equation and the results were the same.  Next I 
disconnected the windlass, same results.  Next I moved inside and checked for 
voltage on the tube for the centre board pendant.  Saw 0.25 V.  I removed the 
positive cable to the house electrical panel.  Still saw voltage. 
 
Am I doing this right.  My memory tells me that the way I?m testing might be 
creating some kind of battery but my memory might be tricking me. 
 
Could really use some help from any electricians or corrosions specialist out 
there. 
 
 
Mike 
C 37 K/CB Shoal draft 
Persuasion 
Stormont Yacht Club 
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Re: Stus-List Gas consumption C with Atomic 4

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

At 4 - 5 knots into wind and waves a consumption of 1.8 CND gallons per hour is 
possible.
Very roughly a 4 stroke gas engine running efficiently will yield about 15 HP 
at 1 gallon CND per hour.
Subtract losses for the alternator and water pumps and 1.8 might give you 20 - 
24 HP at the prop.


One thing to check is the timing which seems to have an effect on the A4 under 
load. Pick
a flat windless day, come up to a reasonable speed and measure it by GPS. The 
best is to
adjust the distributor while running for highest speed, may not be possible or 
safe.


A guess is that some of the distributors may not be advancing well. There are 
some weights
and springs inside that should be advancing the timing as the engine revs up 
but the few
that I have looked at for people either didn't move at all or had a 
significantly reduced range.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




From: jay hackney  
 
Hello colleagues 
Filled with gas for the Atomic 4 in Port Whitby Canada Day and sailed back to 
Toronto. Wind out of the West and tight timeline meant we had to motor against 
the wind and waves for 2.5 hr. That would be relatively ?hard? motoring at 4-5 
knots. Since then I?ve motored about another 3/4hr for a total of 3.25 hours, 
again at about 4.5 knots. Filled with gas again the other day to measure gas 
consumption and got 7.9 litres per hour, or 1.8 gal per hour. 
I?ve got a 2-blade folding prop (which, by the way, make reversing difficult - 
in the sense that there is no quick stopping). 
Does that seem normal? 
Online research seems to go from 0.5 to 2-3 gal per hour. 
Anyone with an A4 on a C with a gas consumption comparison out there? 
thanks 
Jay Hackney 
Windblown 
Toronto 
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Re: Stus-List Weird - Marine Vendor Websites Down

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I have this in from an American customer who is having similar problems.




> Comcast is in the middle of a major outage in many parts of the country, 
> especially the Northeast. 
> If you have clients with problems, best to see if Comcast is involved.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



From: Randy Stafford  

This morning I?m trying to look into ramshorn reefing hooks for Grenadine, and 
all of defender.com , rigrite.com , 
and westmarine.com  websites are unresponsive.  Only  
jamestowndistributors.com  is responsive.  
What the heck? 
 
Cheers, 
Randy 
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Re: Stus-List marine insurance

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Last Wednesday a storm blew through Ontario also. I was not sure if RC would 
start a race but a
few boats showed up so the set a 1.8 mile leg once around. I knew the wind was 
up, sustained over
20 kts so went out with a 90% blade and full main. After a couple of gusts we 
reefed the main.


It hit 42 kts upwind but balance was OK. Boat windage is pretty high and even 
with only 3 miles fetch
the waves were surprisingly hard so we angled off a bit to not pound so much.  
We average around
5.4 kts upwind ( not VMG ) which surprised me. Tacking was an art, needed to 
bow down slightly to
get 6 knots before coming up.


Downwind was harder, had to run wider angles to depower the main. I think if it 
was possible to drop
it we would have and run the jib only. Top speed when a square wave caught us 
and pushed was 10.9 kts,
think that was the fastest I have seen Windburn go.


We corrected over the bigger boats that had a much faster downwind, including a 
Bene 36.7, J/105 and J/35.
The only boat that is similar to us is a C 3/4 ton ( race version of the 33 ) 
which we beat by over an hour level.


Two waves, or maybe spray, got lifted so much they blew over the boat without 
soaking us. I have no idea what
the winds got to because during the 42+ knot gust the end of the MHU blew off. 
When the wind lifts the spray
off the waves it is usually above 45 knots as a guess.


For most boats docking was just as exciting.


http://www.thenyc.com/display-race/NWIyOTQwMTk2YWZjZjkuNTY5NTQ5MjA0NDc,/



Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2018 10:49:18 -0600 
From: Randy Stafford  

+1.  Changed to Progressive from BoatUS this year because BoatUS prices kept 
going up and their coverages kept going down. 
 
On the survey question, I remember doing a ?self survey? for BoatUS, and also 
sending them the professional pre-purchase survey I had done on my boat.  For 
Progressive, I also sent the pre-purchase survey.  I haven?t had the boat for 
five years yet, so I don?t know if I?ll get pestered.  My yacht club requires 
proof of insurance for racing, but I don?t think my marina does for slippage. 
 
Incidentally, last Wednesday night I had the wildest race on Grenadine since 
buying her.  Wind jumped from 10mph to 35mph in the snap of a finger, a few 
minutes after the start.  Outflow from a big storm cell to the southeast, I 
think.  I had my drifter (150% lightweight genoa) and full main up for the 
10mph conditions.  We could see the puff on the water but couldn?t tell how 
strong it was until we got in it - we were one of the first boats to get in it. 
 Rounded up hard four times, buried the side deck to the cabintop window, and 
tore the clew cringle out of the drifter before I could even think to change 
headsails.  Managed to maintain position in the race under main alone while we 
switched to the 130.  Then had an accidental gybe and the boom knocked a 
crewman into the cabin (lesson: don?t sail wing and wing in that strong of 
wind).  Still finished second despite the chaos.  Sail is already fixed, 
crewman has recovered.  No lasting damage, some lessons learned, and the 30-1 
prov 
 e 
 d her stiffness again. 
 
Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
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Re: Stus-List C Rescue Committee finds

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Listed as a C 30 but it is a 29.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 21:38:13 + 
From: "Della Barba, Joe"  

 
https://easternshore.craigslist.org/boa/d/1979-cc-30/6589132460.html 
 
1979 C 30 - $1500 (Cape Charles, VA) hide this posting unhide  
? craigslist - Map data ? OpenStreetMap 
Marina Road 
condition: fair  
length overall (LOA): 29  
make / manufacturer: C and C  
model name / number: C and C  
propulsion type: sail  
year manufactured: 1979  
QR Code Link to This Post 
Very nice fin keel spade rudder Chesapeake Bay cruising boat. Sturdy and nice 
sailing boat. Project boat as she was neglected a while 
 
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Re: Stus-List Raymarine Autopilot gone mad!

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Long short. If the head has the controller in it, such as a ST4000, ST4000+, 
ST6000 ...
when it starts acting up place a cloth over it and soak it in ice water for a 
minute or so.
If the unit starts working normally you likely have a component overheating.


I have fixed two by noticing where the circuit board was discolored and 
replacing
the component. One was the three pin voltage regulator and the other was the
wire out to the wheel drive.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





From: Tom Buscaglia  

Well, yesterday, as we left our overnight anchorage, I did a full reset of the 
autopilot.  Followed by the linearization that only showed a 3 degree 
deviation. This indicates there are no issues with the compass being influenced 
by and ferrous interference.  A few of the rudder setting were way off and I 
was hoping that would resolve any issues.  One thing I did notice is that the 
pilot was not receiving the GPS info from my e7 MFD.    
 
Once everything was done we set out.  Things seemed ok for a while.  The 
excessive course hunting stopped and she was holding course  fine.  No circuit 
breaker issues either.  Then she just started to wander to port...  Restart 
would settle things down, but in a few minutes she would go off on me again.  
it just deteriorated from there so we went manual from there. 
 
When I installed the MFD myself a few years ago I used the appropriate Gtalk ti 
Gtalk ng converter and all of the G60 instruments show up on the MFD.  but I 
didn?t go at all into the interface.   
 
At this point I suspect there is a software version mismatch.  I found the 
update .iso  that will load the update for the pilot onto it via the MFD.  I?ll 
need to get home to download it and see if the helps. 
 
The below deck conversion looks like something I may consider either doing 
myself or using my checkbook.  But I better get the Pilot?s brain working right 
first... 
 
Tom Buscaglia 
S/V Alera  
1990 C 37+/40 
Vashon WA 
P 206.463.9200 
C 305.409.3660 
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Re: Stus-List Parallel Batteries

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

If you are looking to replace your batteries these may be of interest.

http://fireflyenergy.com/

I looked at them a few years ago and would have gone that way except I found
a deal on Johnson Controls AGM group 31s, $160 CND instead of $400.

The technology is not a gimmick, the research was done by Caterpillar to find
a better product for their needs. Possible weeks of non-use, high cranking amps
particularly in cold weather and the ability to recover from a deep discharge.
The pricing is in line with Rolls or Lifeline AGM offerings.

https://www.bruceschwab.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/firefly-energys-oasis-group-31/

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/Can-Carbon-Foam-Batteries-Meet-Hype-11694-1.html


There are quite a few positive reviews and installation blogs on the internet. 
I have not
seen anything negative or reporting a fault but the technology has only been in 
common
use for about 10 years.

https://www.panbo.com/gizmos-new-firefly-battery-bank-working-out-the-details/

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


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Re: Stus-List Blue Sea Add A Battery Kit

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

If this is the switch you have:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/5511e/e-Series_Dual_Circuit_Plus_Battery_Switch

then

Off - should disconnect both battery ( banks ) ie no starter to engine and no 
house to boat
On - should connect starter to engine, house to boat but keep the separate
Combine - should combine the starter and house battery and connect them both to 
the engine and boat


>  It should only turn off the starter battery.

No, the documentation clearly states "Simultaneously switches two isolated 
battery banks".

It is strange to have a defective switch and an installer that thinks it 
suppose to work that way.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2018 10:40:49 -0600 (MDT) 
From: DON JONSSON  

Hello  
 
Last year when we installed a new engine we had the local mechanic do two 
things. Align the engine and do the wiring. This is question about the wiring 
for people who have the same Blue Sea kit.  
 
To manage the batteries we are using the Blue Sea Dual Circuit Plus 5511e 
switch and the 7610 ACR. Although we already had the ACR these two combined are 
what Blue Sea call the Add A Battery Kit. Both of these are connected correctly 
but the behaviour seems wrong to us. When we set the 5511e to 'Off" it turns 
only one of the batteries off. In our case it leaves the house battery 
connected through the switch and disconnects the starter battery. Using and ohm 
meter with the batteries disconnected we have found that in the 'Off' position 
only one side of the switch is closed and the other open. So it is the switch 
doing this, not some bad wiring going to the house. This seems like a faulty 
switch to us.  
 
Here is the catch. We contacted the company that sold us the switch and 
installed it, Gartside, and they said that is the way it is supposed to work. 
It should only turn off the starter battery. I have looked at all the Blue Sea 
material and this seems wrong to me, according to the literature, but it never 
specifically says what is done in the 'off' position, but it certainly seems to 
imply that both sides should be turned on and off simultaneously. It also has a 
combined mode, but that is a separate thing.  
 
Does anyone else have this setup and how does yours work.  
 
Thanks  
Don  
Andante, C 34  
Victoria, BC  
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Re: Stus-List Marine Batteries

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

In Canada you could check Total Battery. I see a Trojan deep cycle Group 31 
listed
for $282.80

http://webstore.totalbattery.com/product-p/31xhs.htm


The claimed 130 amp hours is good as is the reserve capacity at 225 minutes.
Many Group 31s are around 100 and 190.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
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Re: Stus-List C 30 Mast weight

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The standing rigging weighs under 100 lbs, would guess the mast is 200 lbs. I 
normally
disconnect the forestay, coil it and store it on board for the winter to 
protect the Harken
Carbo Foil. I can pick up and carry the mast myself, no problem placing it on a 
rack up
to shoulder height.

To switch from saw horses to a mast dolly I place the dolly beside the mast in 
the middle,
left one end of the mast and pivot the mast on the far sawhorse. If I  end up 
on a higher
spot on the mast racks I pick up one end and put it on the rack, then go to the 
other end
and lift the mast up.

Based on that I have to think it is under 250 pounds.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



From: Randy Stafford  

Hi Gerald, 
 
I don?t have an exact weight for the mast on my 30 MK I, but I would 
guesstimate it?s in the range of 200-250 pounds.  Two guys can lift it but it?s 
a struggle, and they can?t hold it for long or move it very much.  Four or five 
guys can carry it more easily. 
 
Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
 
> On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:28 AM, gerald field via CnC-List 
>  wrote: 
>  
> Does anyone have a idea of the approximate weight of the mast on a C 30. I 
> am going to buy a chain hoist that i will mount on a frame for moving my mast 
> from its winter stands onto a mast dolly at the club and i want to make sure 
> i get a appropriately sized one. 
> Gerald Field 
> C 30 Vagabond 
> Midland Bay Sailing Club 
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Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

True, though note that very little play at the radial wheel keyway is required.
If your rudder swings 80 degrees and that takes 3 turns lock to lock ( no idea, 
just an example ),
then 1 degree on the rudder is 13.5 degrees on the wheel. If your rudder post 
is 2.5" diameter then
1 degree is less than 1/32" of play.

Other than taking everything apart on Windburn I have only looked at two other 
drives
systems. Both had been damaged and had some play in them. On one it was
a similar observation, the center mark on the wheel was no longer straight 
ahead. My guess
is while in full reverse the wheel was let go and slammed over against the stop 
hard
enough to shift the radial on the shaft. The key was brass or bronze and was 
damaged.
On the other one the keyways were not the same size, maybe out by 0.02" or so.

It is not always easy to get in and make good measurements.

That allowed the radial to move, polished the fit a bit and the drive system 
slipped
down enough to cause alignment problems.

I take it from your advise that everything was engineered to be a very tight or 
interference
fit. The ones I looked at were not but I couldn't tell by hand. Still, 20 
degrees is a lot.


I did take the plate and idlers off of Windburn, had them sandblasted and 
coated them
with POR-15. Came up as hard as rock and looks to be a good solution for 
rusting steel.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1






From: "Chuck Gilchrest"  

Michael, 
 
A 20 degree deviation on wheel centering is an AWFUL lot of wheel travel with 
no explanation.  I suspect Bruce?s boat has a 44? diameter wheel which means at 
20 degrees of travel, the Turk?s head knot would have moved roughly 7 ?? to one 
side or the other.  Generally speaking, if my hand moves the wheel that much, 
the boat changes course dramatically, even with a big wheel. 
 
Most C Yachts had radial drives that are held in place on the rudder shaft by 
an interference fit of the two halves of the radial, machined undersized by 
.003? for a machinist clamping tolerance and then a keyway is cut in the radial 
drive to accommodate a stainless key that locks the drive wheel in place on the 
rudder.   Generally, even if the boat is run aground on the rudder, the radial 
drive wheel or rudder post may bend, but it won?t slip on the post unless it is 
not clamped tightly at the hub of the wheel. 
 
I too suspect a weakened idler assembly that is allowing the idlers to pivot 
after tensioning.  The next step is the idler wheel letting go and dropping 
various bits into to the bilge whilst the cable goes completely slack.  Boat 
handling suffers when this happens.. 
 
Chuck Gilchrest 
 
Half Magic 
 
1983 Landfall 35 
 
Padanaram, MA 
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Re: Stus-List Edson wheel chain jumping links?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

If the radial wheel was slipping on the rudder post it could cause that issue.
Maybe use a sharpie and put a line down the rudder post and onto the radial 
wheel.
20º is not much movement, you may require a fine line.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1

 

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 01:54:12 + (UTC) 
From: Bruce Whitmore  

Hello all,  
 
OK, I think I have a weird thing going here... 
I have adjusted the wheel to center the turks head knot straight up when the 
wheel is centered.? I got it all nice & straight a few weeks ago, and came back 
to the boat to find it about 20 degrees off to port.? By the way, were talking 
about 20% off on the wheel, not 20% of rudder. ? After installing my autopilot, 
I again adjusted it, this time getting the cables set to approximately the same 
amount of adjustment on each side to the adjustment bolts through the radial 
drive wheel.? This required jumping the chain 1 or 2 notches on the wheel 
sprocket. 
All was well for a couple weeks, and behold, on Saturday I went back only to 
find the turks head knot about 20 degrees to starboard.? During these 
adjustments, I have made a point to keep the cable deflection adjusted to be 
relatively minimal (say 1/2" or so?), without getting so tight as to reduce the 
feel of the wheel.? I've notice no issues whatsoever when we're out sailing.  
 
During the first set of adjustments, I noticed the idler wheel bolts were a 
little loose, and tightened those.?  
 
Considering the radial wheel bolts connect to each end of the cable, and the 
cables attach to the chain, I can only think the chain is somehow jumping on 
the sprocket. 
Thoughts? 
Bruce Whitmore 
1994 C 37/40+, "Astralis"Madiera Beach, FL 
(847) 404-5092 (mobile) 
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net 

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Re: Stus-List C 30 Mast Step

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I had though "Live Oak" was a generic term for how some Oaks grew rather than a 
specific species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_oak

Either way despite the lack of knowing the correct description the right Oak is 
very good for marine use.


Sad but years ago near me in Barrie Ontario we had what was reported to be one 
of the larger stands
of White Oak in Canada. A developer needed to beat a pending municipal law 
concerning cutting of mature
trees so early one morning a team of loggers came in and clear cut the whole 
property. I tried to get some
of the wood knowing its properties. The crew laughed and said I didn't want it, 
they could barely cut it even
with sharp chains.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 13:38:23 -0500 
From: Bill Bina - gmail  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C 30 Mast Step 
Message-ID: <03803e6a-8ee7-4d53-845a-d02dc3e63...@gmail.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" 
 
Old ships used Live Oak, which is a very different wood than White Oak. 
 
Bill Bina 
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Re: Stus-List C 30 Mast Step

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Good white oak is considered to be relatively resistant to water penetration, 
used for canoes and old sailing ships.

https://www.wagnermeters.com/aboutamericanwhiteoakandredoak/

Working it, bending it and staining it ( or getting epoxy into it ) has usually 
been the top complaints.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



From: "Ronald B. Frerker"  
 
 On my 30, I used oak the first time. ?I sealed the ends and faces with epoxy, 
but apparently didn't do a good enough job as it sucked up water. ?Now oak 
bends very nicely when wet, especially if hot. ?Needless to say, within a few 
years I had to replace because the mast was getting too low for the shrouds.I 
used an oily mexican wood called paela (sp?). ?They use it for fence posts and 
it's good for a hundred years. ?Very dense, like ironwood.I had only two 
supports and both rested on the shoulder of the bilge so water could flow 
under. ?I added a third support and did the same.All seems to be 
working.RonWild CheriC 30-1STL 
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Re: Stus-List C 30 Mast Step

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I used epoxy coated white oak. The particular pieces were hard enough that 
metal working blades
and a file provided the best method for shaping them.

My feeling is that the original bilge pump configuration did not get the last 
2" of water out of the
mast step area so the plywood was wet 7x24 for 30+ years. It also likely went 
through numerous
freeze/thaw cycles every winter. I may have had the same setup, a Whale Guzzler 
in the cockpit
sole and a long hose running down under the mast step.

The PO installed a centrifugal style pump just astern of the mast which 
improved things a bit but
it also could not pump the last 1" out and the water in the out line would flow 
back. 

I installed a Whale Gulper 320 with a remote pickup and electronic sensor. The 
pickup foot has a valve
in it and the sensor runs for about 45 seconds longer after the low point for 
shutoff is detected. There is
now very little water in the bilge.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 03:49:30 + (UTC) 
From: Collin Ferguson  

My mast step stringers were in very bad shape and the mast plate was dropping 
into the bilge so I'm replacing the step this winter. I have a few questions... 
1). Terminology wise, are the lateral plywood supports considered the mast step 
or stringers? ?Or is the heavy cast iron plate that sits on top of them called 
the mast step? 
2). I've read the very helpful documents about others who have taken on this 
task. ?They have used GPO-3 or other non wood materials. ?I would like to use 
epoxy coated hardwood because I'm much more comfortable shaping the wood to fit 
in. ?If it lasts 20 years I'll be more that happy. ?The original plywood lasted 
40 so I would think it should. ?My question is, what type of wood? ?I was 
thinking White oak or Mahogany. 
3). How important is it that the 3 new pieces go all the way to the keel? ?Of 
the 3 current supports only the forward most support went all the way to the 
base of the bilge, the other two had enough space between them and the bottom 
of the bilge to pass a large diameter bilge hose through. ?I'm not sure if that 
was original or if one of the PO's modified them to run the hose. ?There were 
many failed repairs to the original structure. 
4). I'm thinking about putting an automatic bilge pump in between the pieces 
under the mast. ?The current setup only had a hose running in there to a manual 
whale pump. ?Is it a good idea to put a small automatic pump in there? ? 
Thanks, 
Collin1974 C 30 MK1LibraBaltimore 
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Re: Stus-List Removing companionway slider plexiglass, C 37/40+

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I had thought that polycarbonate was "more likely to scratch"
compared to acrylic ( plexiglass ), and that polycarbonate yellowed
over time due to UV exposure.

http://www.hydrosight.com/acrylic-vs-polycarbonate-a-quantitative-and-qualitative-comparison/


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 14:36:12 -0500 
From: Brian Donovan  

Hi Bruce 
 
I replaced my fixed ports this past spring and I used 3/8" polycarbonate.  
It is stronger and more scratch resistant than plexiglass.  
I purchased it from Curbell plastics Rochester NY 
 
Cheers 
 
Brian 
 
Brian Donovan 
112 Frisbee Hill Rd  
Hilton NY 14468 
(585) 313-1940 
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Re: Stus-List Gotta Love These Hurricanes

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Winds have been up this year. I went for the last sail of the season then 
un-stepped the mast yesterday.
At 5 AM Sunday the Toronto Island Airport which is across the Western Gap from 
the National Yacht Club
recorded a 47 mph gust, 32 mph winds. The forecast was for the wind to ease in 
the afternoon to under
10 knots east, we enjoyed upwards to 20 knots south. Nice sailing in short 
sleeves on October 8th.

A couple of weeks back on September 27th we had the last race of the fall 
series with a storm line crossing
the province. Winds were consistently into the 20s  though we wondered if there 
would be a significant
gust. The storm continued east towards Ottawa and the Britannia Yacht Club 
where a downburst hit
them with a 100 mph gust and 87 mph for over a minute.

Hopefully not the new norm.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




From: "Dennis C."  
oge82d08k2ap...@mail.gmail.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 
 
Touche' also escaped unscathed.  Dock neighbor emailed me all is well.  Was 
worried one of the "derelict" liveaboard boats anchored astern of me would 
break loose.  Wind would have carried it towards Touche's pier. 
 
Saw 40 mph steady and gusts to 53 mph at Pensacola Naval Air Station. 
Water level rose less than 3 feet. 
 
All in all, Nate wasn't overly destructive.  Some localized damage on the 
Mississippi Coast but could have been worse. 
 
Let's hope we're done for the year. 
 
Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 
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Re: Stus-List Toe rail leak

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Good enough for me, will give it a try in the spring.

Windburn is pretty dry, not much gets in from rain or spray.
A very little gets in on the port side midship with the rail buried
for a while, wipes up with a cloth. I shouldn't be bothered but
so close to being completely dry ...

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


 
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 19:14:28 -0500 
From: "Dennis C."  
 
All I know is that I, and others, have seen leaks decrease or stop after 
applying Captain Tolley's to the inboard edge of the toe rail.  It may just 
be that the stuff is so watery that it finds it's way under the rail, 
possibly sneaks around the fasteners and works its magic.  Whether it finds 
its way to the rub rail I can't say.  :) 
 
Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 
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Re: Stus-List Toe rail leak

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I had assumed any water intrusion getting in would between the deck and vinyl 
rub strip
where there should be some butyl, or the rub strip and the hull where again 
there should
be butyl.

http://southshoreyachts.com/shop/cc-old-style-rub-rail-40/

Is the Tolly creeping down to those areas?

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 16:53:16 -0500 
From: "Dennis C." <capt...@gmail.com> 
To: CnClist <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Toe rail leak 
Message-ID: 
     <CANir+yv_V3uNtipzAv0=zEeN=iLv=fEKMXDOQT=3madtewc...@mail.gmail.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 
 
Not the way I use it.  I just use it to stop water intrusion between the 
toe rail and deck.  It may work on the bolts but I've never tried it. 
 
Dennis C. 
 
On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 4:47 PM, Michael Brown via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: 
 
> Is this to stop water entry from following the through bolts ( machine 
> screws ) into the cabin? 
> 
> Michael Brown 
> Windburn 
> C 30-1 
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Re: Stus-List Toe rail leak

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Is this to stop water entry from following the through bolts ( machine screws ) 
into the cabin?

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2017 15:36:56 -0500 
From: "Dennis C."  

 
Yep.  Just place the tip of the bottle in the rail/deck interface, squeeze 
very gently and go.  Watch it get sucked into the crack.  Again, don't 
squeeze too hard or it will flow out on the deck.  You'll get the technique 
down in under a minute. 
 
First time, put 5-6 applications about 30-60 minutes apart.  Next year you 
might only do 2-3 applications. 
 
I'm down to 1 per year or every other year. 
 
It's an aqueous acrylic polymer dispersion.  I'm guessing it's a close 
cousin to the polymers one finds in some grouts and sealants.  Once it 
dries, it's probably stays flexible.  Hence it's good application for toe 
rails. 
 
When I looked up the MSDS, I see it's a product of a company called New 
Pig.  We used to buy a lot of their stuff for spill containment/clean up 
when I was a regulatory manager.  Good company.  They sell oil absorbent 
pads and "elephant tampons". 
 
https://www.newpig.com/pig-blue-absorbent-sock/p/4048 
 
Probably too much info for the list but I thought it was interesting. 
 
Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 
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Re: Stus-List where to begin.

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Do whichever is easier:

1) switch the batteries ( house and starting )
2) switch the battery cables, ie house positive and ground to the starting, 
starting positive and ground to house

If the selection of starting battery ( which is now the house battery ) starts 
the engine easily then the starting battery
needs to be checked.

If the selection of starting battery ( which is now the house battery ) does 
not start the engine and the connection
is seven volts then the wiring needs to be checked.

If both selections start the engine now you may have had a battery connection 
problem.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


From: Bev Parslow  

 
The starting battery is showing a little over twelve volts but at the starter 
motor it is down to just over seven. As a result the engine will not turn over 
but starts easily on the house system. Somewhere we are loosing five volts. For 
a Luddite can anyone explain where we start to find the problem? Please use 
simple terms as I did not do well in science. 
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Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

If you have the mechanical style fuel pump you may be able to use it for 
troubleshooting.
The pump has a mechanical primer in the form of a wire bail that goes around 
outside of
the body. Part way down here is a picture of the pump:

https://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410

There is a bail that holds the fuel cup on, and a second smaller one you can 
see in the left
picture around the lower part of the pump.

If there is fuel available then after levering it out a couple of times it will 
fill the carburetor
and tend to stay out. If you can prime the pump a dozen times then either there 
is no fuel,
there is a problem with the lines or maybe the carb is getting flooded.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
 


From: Randy Stafford  
 
Update on this - went down to the boat today, pulled plugs, changed oil.  No 
sign whatsoever of water in the engine.  Then on testing, she started right up, 
ran smoothly at idle for several minutes, then shut down suddenly.  And 
wouldn?t restart after a few short cranking attempts (with raw water intake 
closed).  From that I was relieved that the starter and solenoid and starter 
circuit were working, and the ignition circuits. 
 
Per Occam?s Razor I removed and inspected the fuel petcock, as it?s been 
troublesome this year (it became increasingly difficult to turn, then suddenly 
easier to turn, hmmm?).  I believe it to be the culprit.  It was stuck in what 
appeared to be a closed position, and turning its handle didn?t change that.  I 
suspect it may have been just open enough to allow the fuel line to fill, given 
enough time.  But once the engine consumed the fuel in the line, it wasn?t open 
enough to keep supplying the engine. 
 
I bought a new fuel shut-off valve from West Marine and will install it 
tomorrow and report back.  As for my starter not working Sunday when I pushed 
the button, I?ll let that remain a mystery unless it happens again.  Maybe I 
didn?t have the ignition switch pulled out far enough when I pressed the 
button. 
 
Cheers, 
Randy 
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Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

 When I replaced the ignition switch, a simple pull on push off, I changed it 
to a three position switch.
I don't think this is exactly it but close:

M-476-BX

https://www.carltonbates.com/static/catalog/products/images/PDF/M-476-BX.pdf

On the first detent out I use #1 for the ignition.. The second detent ( further 
out ) still has #1 powered
for the ignition and I used #2 for the gauge lights. I normally do not light 
the gauges during the
day, and may want darkness at some point at night.

I think the switch I used moves the contact material between the first and 
second position so sort
of like a backup switch.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





From: Bruce Whitmore  

 
Good point, Michael.? There is a significant difference that I failed to 
mention between the in/out ignition switch and the push button, and in 
retrospect it may have been the push/pull that I replaced - It's been a lot of 
years, and I just replaced a different type of silver pushbutton switch on my 
37/40+.?  
 
Good insights from all,  
?Bruce Whitmore 
 
(847) 404-5092 (mobile) 
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net 
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Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Hi Randy,

  a common wiring configuration has a positive wire coming from the starter stud
to the ignition switch in. The ignition switch out feeds the ignition coil, 
starter button
and gauges. If you pull the ignition switch on it should move the fuel gauge, 
ignition
off might return the gauge to empty.

  If so that will confirm power is getting to and through the ignition switch.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:15:08 -0600 
From: Randy Stafford  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List A4 Cutting Out 
Message-ID: <8f1bd72a-bd6e-4e04-b0a3-4e09edff3...@comcast.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 
 
Hi Doug, 
 
No noise whatsoever when I pushed the starter button.  It was as if there 
wasn?t enough current to activate the starter, but the batteries *did* have 
enough charge at the time. 
 
Cheers, 
Randy 
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Re: Stus-List Looseness in tiller on C MK1

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

On my '77 30 MK1 the rudder post goes through a fiberglass tube that is a close 
fit,
would not allow much sideways movement. Wear between the shaft and tiller is 
more likely.
If the bolts are easy to remove and are not retaining the shaft then take them 
out and see
how easily the tiller comes off.

You can send the pictures to me directly and I will take a look.

I did remove the pedestal, turning plate, rudder and fittings from Windburn for 
checking
and maintenance a few years ago. Time consuming but there is reasonable access 
and
everything comes apart and goes together without any complicated procedures.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 12:09:41 + 
From: Cleverboy  

 
Looking for some guidance on a problem with my newly acquired 73 C . I Have 
play in the tiller and I'm trying to determine if the play is the result of 
"egging" around the through bolt or the piece that I think is called the rudder 
head. The rudder head is attached to the rudder shaft by 2 bolts. It appears 
that over the 44 years of sailing some material may have worn away allowing the 
tiller to have the sloppiness. I tried attaching 2 photos but it put me wildly 
over the size permitted for emails. 
 
Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
 
 
Charles Ferrari 
 
Bronx, NY 
 
C 30 MK1 
 
Destrier 
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Re: Stus-List 1980 Water Systems Questions

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Must have had great quality control to replicate the same failure ;-)

I have been on a few 30-1, no two the same so far but all great boats.

I was racing last Tuesday, had the rarely used blade up and a full main at 20 - 
25 kts.
A wind line took us to 36 kts, eased the main and jib off to sit at about 60º 
AWA.
Sailed well, balanced helm and not even the rail in the water. When it eased 
back
down to 30 we sheeted in a bit and finished the race.

The scene behind us was not as relaxed.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



From: "Gary Nylander"  
 
By 1980, they went with separate tanks. Mine is just like Chad?s, complete with 
the leak. 
 
Gary 
 
1980 30-1 
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Re: Stus-List 1980 Water Systems Questions

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The tanks on my '77 C 30 are fiberglass and built with the hull as part of 
the tank. The top of the
forward tank is also the base of the V-berth. There are removable round access 
ports and a screwed
down access panel on both tanks.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 20:23:56 -0400 
From: Chad Osmond  
 
I did repair the tanks on our '90 30-2 by drilling out the crack, flame 
treatment and GFlex. I repaired it last year and kept the tank full this 
year with no issues. 
 
Chad 
 
On Aug 28, 2017 8:21 PM, "Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List" < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: 
 
> If you look back in the archives, there was discussions on water tanks 
> repair within the last 4 weeks. 
> 
> If you have a leak at the fitting, possibly, you may just need to replace 
> it. 
> 
> I had some surprisingly good results with a Bondic welding kit.
> 
> And yes, most sinks drain directly overboard. 
> 
> Marek 
> 
> 
> *From: *Chris Hobson via CnC-List  
> *Sent: *Monday, August 28, 2017 20:07 
> 
> Recently filled up the V birth water tank and discovered a slow leak. PO 
> left it empty and now I know why. This eventually drained everything into 
> my bilge, as the tank is now empty and the bilge is full. So that needs to 
> be fixed. Has anyone repaired a plastic water tank before, or do you 
> typically replace them? it looks like the leak comes from one of the 
> fittings fastened to the tank. 
> 
> Second question which I'm sure most of you could answer, does the sink in 
> the head generally drain into the holding tank or go overboard? from what I 
> can see the sink drains directly into a seacock fastened to the hull. 
> 
> Chris Hobson 
> s/v "Going" 
> 1980 C 30 MKI 
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Re: Stus-List Electrical panel

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Some are dual purpose switch / circuit breakers:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/7351/C-Series_White_Toggle_Circuit_Breaker_-_Single_Pole_10_Amp

That one is rated at 10,000 cycles as a switch.  The MRSP is $40 USD, more 
expensive than a switch and fuse.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:05:59 -0700 
From: svpegasus38  
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
Subject: Re: Stus-List Electrical panel 
Message-ID:  
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 
 
Paul,?Circuit breakers were not designed to be used as a switch, although we 
all do. Me included. This being used as a switch will cause them to fail over 
time. I believe you just had bad luck having 2 fail symotainiously. I like 
paneltronics stuff. because I have used it in the past, and they will custom 
build a panel for you.? 
 
 
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE DeviceDoug Mountjoy?POYC?Pegasus ?(for 
sale)?Lf38?Rebecca Leah?LF39? 
 Original message From: Paul via CnC-List 
 Date: 8/10/17  09:54  (GMT-08:00) To: 'Ron Ricci' 
, cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: paul.h...@rogers.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Electrical panel  
My 2 problem breakers were from the 12v DC side of the panel.? The AC is the 
left side and the DC is the right 2 sides. I have the main shut off switch 
for the panel otherwise, there is not backup breaker for the DC. 
 
Thanks, 
Paul Hood 
416.799.5549 c 
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Re: Stus-List Bilge Pump Wiring (Cont...)

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

If there has been a problem with AC leakage from other boats then completely 
disconnecting
all grounds might help. No idea, just guessing. The battery charger would need 
to be connected
directly to the battery(s), which looks like it is from the pictures.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2017 07:35:58 + (UTC) 
From: RANDY  
 
Scratching my head. Presumably the point of the second battery switch is to 
switch some circuit(s) open or closed. But to me it's weird. I'd generally 
expect the switching to be on the hot side of the circuits, and all grounding 
to be (unswitched) to the engine block and therefore the prop shaft. (Not that 
I'm all that experienced with boat electrical systems). Where does the black 
cable off the "common" stud of that second battery switch run to?  
 
Regarding the #1 battery, an easy test to isolate battery fault versus other 
faults would be to connect it to a known good charger (only). If it won't 
charge up or hold a charge, it's the battery.  
 
Cheers,  
Randy  
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Re: Stus-List Refit for a 1981 Landfall 38

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

> Add pad-eye on bow platform for code zero sail

If you are planning to carry a 155% genoa a racing code zero ( defined here
as a flat spinnaker with the MidGirth < 75% of the Foot ) is an expensive sail
that will add benefit over a fairly small AWA.  A cruising code zero or reaching
asymmetrical might be 50% of the cost of a racing code zero and be a better fit.

> Add Code Zero sail on Facnor continuous line furling unit

Nice units. It is difficult getting a big spinnaker down, code zero or reaching
asymmetrical, if you are in a race. We normally douse when either the apparent
goes too far forward or the TWS gets above what we can carry a spinnaker in,
making the task a challenge double handing. If we head off wind to help 
shadow the spinnaker behind the genoa and main it takes us off course.

Windburn spent the last three hours of the Lake Ontario 300 flying spinnaker
at 60º AWA in 6 - 10 kts TWS.  It was a blast, routinely doing 6.2 kts in 8.4 
kts TWS.
Everything needs to be up sized, the forces involved will break things.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





From: john wright  
 
Hello everyone 
 
I am about to begin a complete refit on what is the best boat  for my purpose ( 
sailing around Cape Code as we get ready to do the Caribbean 1500 in 2019), 
after looking or sailing at least 100 boat over the past 4 years. The boat is 
in better than average condition, I will post pictures later. 
 
I have the work broken down into three categories, and would appreciate any 
recommendations and reorganizing of the list.  
 
Thanks 
 
Level 1: Repairs and Installations 
Replace old set of AGM batteries with new set 
Remove old engine, clean and repaint engine room, rebuild engine bed as needed 
to fit the new Yanmar 3JH5e 
Replace all hoses for new engine 
Move raw water sea strainer and Racor fuel filter to easier location to monitor 
visually 
Gelcoat ? fill all chips and nicks with gelcoat 
Clean stains with FSR 
Repair teak grating at pedestal (epoxy the connections to frame) 
Clean teak with teak cleaner 
Replace teak combing with thicker mahogany boards 
Clean and Polish all gelcoat surfaces  
Hull bottom ? sand and repaint with anti-fouling ablative paint  
Re-install mast and tune rigging 
Make line hanger in cockpit below deck winches functional once again 
Add gasket to aft access panel under helm seat 
Repair/ refinish wood framework to companionway 
Re-varnish companionway door 
Make better drainage in port cockpit locker and revarnish partition wood 
Install the new Whale Gusher manual pump in cockpit 
Update propane solenoid  
Remake companionway door cover to fit better 
Deck and House ? clean and re-varnish woodwork (handrails, dorade boxes) 
Clean and polish all stainless hardware 
Replace gasket material on all opening ports 
Repaint all dorade vents 
Replace traveler cam cleat 
Clean, sand and varnish bow platform 
Stanchion support on starboard bent ? take to shop and straighten 
Add maintenance coat of varnish on floors and re-secure 
Install and varnish framework for windows 
Repair and revarnish bulkheads where needed 
Re-install all cabinets and tables 
Finish installation of canvas cover for ceiling in forward berth 
Ice box cover ? install hardware and gasket 
Head ? re-cut new mirror and install 
Forward cabin has trim work that needs to be installed 
Brow in forward cabin to be replaced with new trim work 
 
 
Level 2: Updates and Improvements 
Hull repainting ? large project to be described as we get closer to that 
project 
Paint steering pedestal white 
Replace instruments 
Replace opening port in cockpit with new 
Add winch handle holders in cockpit 
Paint new non-skid in cockpit seats and floor 
Make set of cockpit cushions 
Install a cockpit shower 
Re-bed all deck gear, hardware and chainplates (last another 20 years) 
Replace all blocks with updated equipment 
Replace all running rigging 
Replace genoa sheet cars with moveable sheet lead under load 
Replace missing wood bungs on teak toe rail (may need to reset screws deeper as 
wood has shrunk over time) 
Sand toe rail and varnish 
Winches to be stripped cleaned and greased 
Paint interior of chain locker 
Make a grating for chain locker to help rode to dry 
Stanchion bases and cleats to be removed and powder coated to original color 
All deck non-skid to be renewed with white or Hatteras soft yellow (Tartan 
Yachts uses this style) 
Add stanchion rollers for headsail furling line to lead to cockpit 
Replace steering cables with new 
Replace all interior lighting with LED 
Install Isotherm hot water tank 
Replace interior cushions with new foam and fabrics 
Replace AC/DC switch panel with BluSea panel 
Add swim ladder 
 
 
Level 3: Enhancements 
Replace manual windlass with an electric version 
Upgrade chain and rope to fit new windlass 
Add pad-eye on bow platform for code zero sail 
Add Fischer Panda Perfect Power iSeries Generator 
Install reverse cycle heat and air conditioning system 

Re: Stus-List C 30 boomvang issue

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Hi Bill,

  I would lean towards SS rivets as suggested by Dennis and others. You will 
need to get the
diameter of the hole but also the combined thickness of the fitting and mast. 
Fogh has a good
assortment of the rivets. You can get the compound riveter from Princess Auto.

  On the LO300 with all the reaching not having a vang was likely a significant 
problem. Did
you rig a temporary block or anything?

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1

yes - I was docked a couple of slips away from you at PCYC.



>  
> *From: *"Dennis C. via CnC-List"  

> 
> I'm guessing they were aluminum rivets.  "Every high load" rivet I  
> installed in a mast was stainless coated with TefGel. 
> 
> However, to install larger stainless rivets, you need a BIG rivet tool  
> like a Marson Big Daddy.  They run about $150. 
> 
> If it were me, I'd punch out the old rivets and reinstall with  
> stainless.  Is there a rental shop around where you can rent a Big Daddy? 
> 
> Dennis C. 
> Touche' 35-1 #83 
> Mandeville, LA 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 10:29 AM, Bill Nickel via CnC-List  
> > wrote: 
> 
>     During my recent "race" in the Lake Ontario 300 (actually the 
>     shorter scotch bonnet race) my hydraulic boom bang broke off at 
>     the base of the mast. The rivets appear to have sheared off. 
>     I have the local boat repair company taking a look, but t I am 
>     curious if anyone has suggestions? 
> 
>     Bill Nickel 
> 
>     "adagio" 
> 
>     1977 C 30 mk 1 
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Re: Stus-List synthetic oil

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

If it is the correct grade and has the minimum rating requirements there is no 
reason
to replace it. Synthetic oil could also be described as better filtered / 
refined / processed
regular oil and its only drawback in most applications is that it is expensive.

In an application where the oil stays clean, no ring leakage or maybe a natural 
gas conversion,
synthetic oils could last for 15,000+ miles between changes and come closer to 
cost effective.
I doubt you would want the same oil in a marine diesel for that many seasons.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2017 15:45:08 + 
From: "Hoyt, Mike"  

I had my brother pick up 15w40 for me last week. Changed oil today and when old 
oil drained realized he bought synthetic 15w40. Have outing today and no time 
to get regular oil.  
 
Plan to drain and change later this week to non synthetic 
 
Is this an issue? 
 
Yanmar 3gm30f 
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Re: Stus-List LO300

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Has lots of help, thousands at least.

http://www.gamonyachting.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/GAMBloodsuckers.pdf

Windburn did double handed flying sails but I ended up awake for the race. At 
times
sections of the deck, sails or lifesling cover was obscured. We used buckets to 
wash down
and clear the cockpit, if you kill one it attracts more for a feast. It clogged 
the scuppers
so had to use the brush handle to mush them up.

They bite right through clothes, switched to foulies and boots.

Mike


Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 10:50:42 -0400 
From: coltrek  
    
Congratulations on that - even more impressed that somebodycan stay awake all 
that time!? 
 
Regards, 
Bill Coleman?C 39 
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Re: Stus-List Voltages

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

We have a number of UPSes in our customer base we support. I have recycled
at least 60 AGM batteries this year and sometimes play with them to see if they
are good or can be recovered.

Even fairly flat batteries may recover. If they can be charged back up, and I 
use
a constant current power supply instead of a battery charger, I see how long the
charge takes. Having a 100 amp hour battery come to full charge after 10 hours
at 1 amp means it isn't chemically taking a charge.

After the battery has been charged, and that may take days, I put a light load 
on
it to remove a small amount of AH, say 10%. The battery is left to sit for a 
week
or so and then I measure the voltage. What I am looking for is one or more cells
that are self discharging. If the battery settles in at around 12+ volts there 
is
hope, but if it shows 10 ( or 8 ) then a cell has gone.

I can put the batteries back into a Smart UPS and do a run down load test,
basically the UPS switches to battery and runs it down to some voltage,
switches back to AC and then sends me a report. That will tell me how much
capacity the battery has in it.

A lot of the time one battery out of the set has gone, some UPSes have
10 batteries in series, some up to 14 in parallel and series. If the UPS is
only 2 - 3 years old I may find only one completely bad battery, and maybe
three that recover. They are not new, may have 80%+ of original capacity
but can be reused in a less critical application.

So charge them up, let them sit and check for around 12 volts. If that is
good do a run down test ( the old 12v camper bulbs are great for this )
and see what capacity is left.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1

PS: I finished the Lake Ontario 300 last weekend ( and Monday ). Finish times
ranged from 45 to 61 hours, a result of the wind dying on Monday. Windburn
took first in division, first in fleet and line honours on the Scotch Bonnet 
course.

These C keep going and going.





Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 13:11:30 + 
From: "Della Barba, Joe"  

 
It is not absolutely 100% the batteries are done for. 99% maybe, but sometimes 
wet cells, especially traction batteries, can take a good equalizing charge and 
come back to life with some capacity left. 
My old extra car had a short that would run the battery stone cold dead. It 
survived about 3 of these and still could be used as a start battery, but it 
had almost no reserve. 
Joe 
Coquina 
 
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of RANDY via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 7:24 PM 

Well, if I learned an expensive lesson, I'll just have to accept that.  I 
checked all the cells before putting the charger on them, and they were full.  
After charging they are still full (even though I heard the liquid bubbling 
i.e. creating and venting gas toward the end of the charging period). 
 
The one battery I put back on the boat yesterday was able to start my A4 and 
run my electrical stuff no problem, just like normal before all this.  I'll 
take the other down to the boat tomorrow and measure its voltage with my 
multimeter- it will have been at rest, disconnected, for 24+ hours by then.  
But I know there is a difference between instantaneous voltage and amp-hour 
capacity.  These are deep-cycle batteries, and I cycled them very deeply :) 
 
I'll just have to monitor the situation for the rest of the season and see how 
bad my mistakes are going to hurt :) 
 
Cheers, 
Randy 
 
From: "Fred Hazzard via CnC-List" 
> 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 3:27:38 PM 
 
I can tell you from personal experience that AGMs won't servive either.  I had 
4 hooked in parallel  that I flattened to 4.5 v .  A painful experience. At the 
same time I lost my inverter charger. 
 
Fred Hazzard 
S/V Fury 
C 44 
Portland, Or 
 
On Jul 20, 2017 12:34 PM, "Bill Bina - gmail via CnC-List" 
> wrote: 
 
 
I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if those voltages  of 4.7 volts and 
5.7 volts were correct, they mean these batteries have been quite severely 
damaged and will never have anywhere near full capacity again. That is not a 
maybe. You can get many batteries like that to take a surface charge and appear 
okay with a voltage reading that looks somewhat normal. There is no muscle 
behind it. The charger is telling you they are 100% charged to their new  and 
very diminished capacity.  Some of the cells may also have run dry. This was 
not survivable for any flooded battery regardless of quality, or how it was 
treated otherwise. 
 
Bill Bina 
 
On 7/20/2017 10:10 AM, RANDY via CnC-List wrote: 
An update on this.  Monday morning I brought my batteries home (I've got two of 
these: 
https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Maxx-Marine-Battery-Group-Size-29DC/20531539
 dated May/June 2014 with relatively light use and constantly maintained by a 
3amp solar charger).  And I bought this 

Re: Stus-List Battery replacement time

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I picked up a Johnson Controls group 31 AGM a year ago, a friend picked up 3 
for his house bank.
The 200 minutes reserve capacity is a plus, as is the bulk charge rate of about 
40 amps in my setup.
A downside is they weigh 71 lbs.

http://www.multivu.com/players/English/7848851-johnson-controls-agm-battery/docs/sell-sheet-1275152047.pdf

I got them at Total Battery on sale for $150 each plus tax and core deposit.

http://webstore.totalbattery.com/product-p/agm31p-825.htm

I doubt they are worth the $422 list price.

Costco is now carrying the JCI group 24 for I think around $166.


On long distance races it has no problems lasting 24+ hours running 
instruments, LED running lights, cabin
lights, VHF and occasional Autohelm ( legal under Loor SIs ). The previous West 
Marine group 24 would last
about 12 hours.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1

 






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Re: Stus-List Intriguing challenge

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I help do the same to a pin stop spinnaker car. Worked.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


> On Sun, Jun 4, 2017 at 5:46 PM, Jim Watts via CnC-List < 
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: 
> 
>> I would drill the top hole way oversize (like 3/8") and pull the whole 
>> works out through it. 
>> 
>> Jim Watts 
>> Paradigm Shift 
>> C 35 Mk III 
>> Victoria, BC 
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Re: Stus-List Backstay length and tension

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

+1 for checking the clearance between the aft of the mast and the mast collar.
If the forestay is loose the top of the mast may be slightly forward.

Going by mast rake is difficult unless the boat is floating to spec. You can 
take an
initial reading with a digital level by comparing something that may be level 
such
as the coamings and the mast.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


Date: Fri, 12 May 2017 12:40:18 + 

From: "Hoyt, Mike"  


Hi Dave 
 
Is it possible that there is a mast step adjustment and the step has been moved 
aft further than desired? 
 
Have you tried running the main halyard aft and tightening the halyard?  
Attaching it to an aft cleat or something very solid and then using the halyard 
winch should help bring mast tip back.  I am not very familiar with the rig on 
the 34+ but am assuming that like most of the pre Tartan C the spreaders are 
not swept back.  Also .. a very dumb question .. do you have any jib or spin 
halyards attached to any point forward of the mast? 
 
Mike 
Persistence 
Halifax, NS 
 
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Re: Stus-List Sail advice for 35

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The light-medium will be a 155%. I considered going larger but was unable to 
work out the trade offs.
With PHRF Lake Ontario there is not much of a penalty, they switched to 1 
sec/mile increments on
adjustments a couple of years ago. I would see -1 FS and -2 NFS.

Even with -1 sec/mile I was unsure if I wanted to carry that for what might be 
an advantage below
5 kts TWS mainly. The heavy-medium does well in light air once we get going, 
better than I expected.
I am guessing that it holds its shape well in light air being a molded sail, 
and at some wind speeds
the shape is as important as the sail area. If the sail cannot settle or trim 
into a nice airfoil then all
you get is more drag with a larger sail.

Lake Ontario has been good for testing, hours of fluttery shifty light winds on 
long races. Once we
stall out it is a whole process to start moving again, and steering too much 
just makes it worse.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




Date: Wed, 3 May 2017 16:53:05 + (UTC) 
From: "Ronald B. Frerker"  

When you get the light-medium will you be going to a 160% full hoist given the 
heavy is 151%?RonWild CheriC 30-1STL 
 
 

Cc: Michael Brown  
 Sent: Wednesday, May 3, 2017 6:10 AM 
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Sail advice for 35 
    
Even with a sail larger than 105 the sheeting angle may make a difference. 
There isn't much online about racing sail design for an older C 30 so 
some of it is guesswork and some experimenting. 
 
I wanted a sail that would cover a wide wind range, possible now with the 
strength of materials like 3Di. The long term plan is to have a light-medium 
#1 and a heavy-medium #1. I started with the heavy-medium that ended 
up as about a 151.4% but with 10" short on hoist. Even going down to a 
145% at full hoist affected sheeting angle and draft placement. 
 
The range was to be 6 - 19 kts, works well to 21 at which time we reef the 
main. 
Acceleration is slow below 6 kts but that was the compromise. 
 
I have 3 x #3s with different draft running to a short track on deck inside the 
shrouds. At least on the 30 anything further inboard started interfering with 
the main, and the lazy sheet works well as an in haul for small adjustments. 
 
I have a kevlar #2 which doesn't see much use. It is the usual design, a 140% 
with a flatter cut. The flatness tends to reduce the power below 18 kts, and 
above 22 at 140% it is getting too big. I also suspect the sheeting angle isn't 
optimal. As a result I tend to go from the heavy #1 to a #3 unless the wind 
is pretty steady at 20 kts. 
 
The fastest we go upwind is with an 85% headsail, 22 - 24 kts and flat water. 
Still a full main. The 85% has a deep draft forward, points to about 35 AWA, 
and I have seen 6.7 kts on GPS. 
 
Michael Brown 
Windburn 
C 30-1 
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Re: Stus-List Sail advice for 35

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Even with a sail larger than 105 the sheeting angle may make a difference.
There isn't much online about racing sail design for an older C 30 so
some of it is guesswork and some experimenting.

I wanted a sail that would cover a wide wind range, possible now with the
strength of materials like 3Di. The long term plan is to have a light-medium
#1 and a heavy-medium #1. I started with the heavy-medium that ended
up as about a 151.4% but with 10" short on hoist. Even going down to a
145% at full hoist affected sheeting angle and draft placement.

The range was to be 6 - 19 kts, works well to 21 at which time we reef the main.
Acceleration is slow below 6 kts but that was the compromise.

I have 3 x #3s with different draft running to a short track on deck inside the
shrouds. At least on the 30 anything further inboard started interfering with
the main, and the lazy sheet works well as an in haul for small adjustments.

I have a kevlar #2 which doesn't see much use. It is the usual design, a 140%
with a flatter cut. The flatness tends to reduce the power below 18 kts, and
above 22 at 140% it is getting too big. I also suspect the sheeting angle isn't
optimal. As a result I tend to go from the heavy #1 to a #3 unless the wind
is pretty steady at 20 kts.

The fastest we go upwind is with an 85% headsail, 22 - 24 kts and flat water.
Still a full main. The 85% has a deep draft forward, points to about 35 AWA,
and I have seen 6.7 kts on GPS.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



On 2017-05-02 8:58 PM, Jake Brodersen via CnC-List wrote: 
Alan, 
 
It seems that the smaller your headsail, the faster you go.  Pretty soon you 
can race bare-headed and be at the front of the fleet. 
 
Seriously, where do you sheet your 105 to?  I am looking to install an inboard 
track for my #3 to the cabin top, just outboard of the cabin top rails.  Right 
now I have genoa track that runs all the way to the shrouds, but the further 
forward the car goes, the worse the sheeting angle.  An inboard track would 
help my pointing immensely. 
 
Jake 
 
Jake Brodersen 
C 35 Mk-III ?Midnight Mistress? 
Hampton VA 
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Re: Stus-List spinnaker rig

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I will be prepping my mast next week and could take measurements. I doubt you 
would
want to mount a normal block on the front of the mast if you are carrying an 
overlapping
headsail. It will rub and maybe catch on every tack. The 30-1 factory spinnaker 
uphaul
fitting was a feedthrough with less to catch.

While far from optimum if you are looking to try some light wind downwind 
cruising you
could try it with a simple fixed setup. I have seen some boats use a fixed ring 
to mount
the spinnaker pole to the mast and a similar ring further up with a line looped 
through it
for the uphaul. It doesn't adjust much under load, but that may be fine for 
you. It is also
cheap and won't snag your headsail. You will need a downhaul / foreguy. The can 
work
from a block on the toerail, maybe a forward eye if you have one mounted. I use 
a block
on the base of the mast, fix the line on the starboard side of the mast, up to 
a block on
the spinnaker bridle, then down to a block on the port side of the mast and 
then to the
cockpit. Somewhat strange but it allows sheeting the pole forward and back 
without
having to adjust the downhaul.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
 

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2017 07:41:02 -0400 
From: Kevin Deluzio  

Hi All,  
     This is my second season with my new to me 1980 30-1. I would like to rig 
it for a spinnaker this year. Not interested in racing with one, but I like the 
idea of using it for light winds downwind sailing. So I have to install a block 
for the pole lift and I?m wondering where to install it. In the C manual it 
shows the pole lift at 22?-0? above the ?black line? at base of mast. But I 
don?t have a black line on my mast, not at the base (which I assume is around 
the height of boom?) nor at the top of my mast. Does anyone know where I would 
locate these black lines? or the height of the topping lift from some other 
reference point? My second question is where to mount the pole downhaul 
(foreguy) - a? Thanks for this.  
 
By the way, love the list, such a great source of information. And here?s to 
all the other C owners out there who?s arms are a sore as mine this time of 
year as we get these boats ready for launch. 
 
 
Kevin Deluzio 
S/V Solevento 
C #641 
Kingston, ON 
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Re: Stus-List Raymarine ST 60+ Wind Tranducer - Cups not spinning

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The bearings are replaceable. They are friction fit into plastic but with a 
gentle pressure and
heating the plastic they will slide out. I have done a couple for myself and 
some other people.
Rebuild kits are available still which may contain the bearings ( 4 total ), 
new vane and cups.

The bearings on the ones I did where "3 x 8 x 4" miniature / instrument 
bearings. I got these
from a local supplier at about $20 USD each:

http://german.bearings-web.com/bearing-SM-830W40ZZG7-bearing-MINIATURE-AND-INSTRUMENT-BEARING-SERIES-TABLES-SM-830W40ZZG7-1102443.html

They have been working fine for a couple of years.

Given the cost of a trip up the mast, 4 bearings and the possibility that your 
unit is broken I would check out the price of a new unit.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


From: Bruce Whitmore  
 
Hello all, 
Our Raymarine ST 60+ Wind Tranducer has a problem - the cups are not spinning, 
and though the wind vane swings with the wind, neither the wind speed nor the 
direction show up on the gauge, though the compass does. 
I know that I can get a rebuild kit, but it seems to be just the cups and the 
wind vane.?  
 
Should I bite the bullet and just replace the transducer?? I am going to have a 
rigger show up to address a number of issues all at once, and he charges $80 
per trip up the mast.?  
 
Hoping you can provide some insights,  
 
Bruce Whitmore 
1994 C 27/40+, Madeira Beach, FL 
(847) 404-5092 (mobile) 
bwhitm...@sbcglobal.net 
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Re: Stus-List Stuffing box restuffing

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

When I did the 7/8" shaft and Algonquin stuffing box on Windburn this is what I 
used.

18   DUR-UX0313-01       PACKING ULTRA-X 5/16"     SOLD BY$0.46     $8.28  

https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/products/packing-ultra-x--inch-or-pound--42950.html

   
I tool less than 9", but ordered 18" to have some spare.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 03:32:40 + (UTC) 
From: gerald field  

 
I am looking for information on the size of stuffing packing needed on my C 
30 any information will be welcomeRegards Gerald Field 
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Re: Stus-List genoa cars and tracks - C 30 MK1 1979

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I installed separate tracks. A longer one back to handle sails in the 140 - 155 
range
and a short track between the shrouds and cabin for < 100.

The height of the clew controls how far back the genoa car is positioned. I 
doubt the
110 will sheet inside of the shrouds. If the clew is higher than the top life 
line it will
sheet a few feet back of the shrouds and you can design with one longer track
inboard towards the cabin. If the clew is low than a more outboard track closer
to the shrouds is needed.

http://www.sailmagazine.com/racing/regattas/headsail-sheeting/

That is a good starting point. You can measure and leave a tape strip on the 
luff
about 40% up, then play with the sheets until you see where they land.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





From: Steven Tattrie  

Hi everyone, 
 
I am investigating putting genoa tracks and cars on my C MK1 1979. I 
have a 110 and 150 head sail. 
 
Can folks racing 30's comment on what is the best configuration of tracks 
on a 30. Will one long track work verses separate tracks for different 
sails? and where on the deck would they be installed? would the 110 be 
sheeted inside the shrouds? when they are best used? 
 
I have been searching photos on the internet and found at least half a 
dozen different configurations. So I don't think will be an easy decision 
on where to locate. 
 
you comments will be appreciated 
 
Steve 
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Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

 > requiring more halyard tension to touch the starboard rail than the port rail

When I am centering the mast side to side I use the main halyard, a stiff 
bungee cord
and a tape measure. On either side to start with I hook the bungee to the 
halyard shackle
and through the toe rail, then tighten the halyard until I get significant 
force on the bungee.

I measure from the top of the toe rail to a point on the halyard shackle, then 
move the
set to the other side and measure again. Half of the difference is how far I 
have to adjust
to, and the force of the bungee is more consistent then me trying to guess how 
hard to pull.

You can get pretty close without having to switch sides by calculating the 
target distance.
The boat may shift a bit, the mast step compress etc so a switch at the end is 
required.


The mast rake advice in the C manual is a good starting point. You do want to 
confirm
it is right by sailing close hauled in 10 - 12 kts TWS and getting slight 
weather helm. How
much is a preference but if you are fighting the wheel it is slowing the boat 
down. I have
an adjustable forestay ( normal turnbuckle ) so I can dial it in without having 
to move the
mast butt. I think people leave a small amount or weather helm so that if you 
do get
surprised by a gust it may round you up a bit and help depower. Uncontrolled 
lee helm
will force you down and make it harder to steer, along with other exciting 
effects.



I see from your posting that the aft girder has significant "wings" which will 
extend side
to side in the boat. When I rebuilt Windburn's mast step I had similar smaller 
ones but
was not able to fit the piece in place with them. If the girder was only 1/4" 
thick like a
cardboard template it would go in but the thicker part did not.

Despite having snow this morning I know spring is coming ...

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1

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Re: Stus-List Mast Step Pitch & Helm Balance

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I would guess the foot of your mast has some heel in it to allow the mast head 
to position
fore and aft during sailing. If so installing the mast step at some angle would 
control where
the contact point is and thereby how the load is spread out over the girders ( 
stringers ).

The configuration on Windburn has some extra pieces. There are two 3" angle 
aluminum supports
with one leg vertical and the other leg providing a surface for the mast block 
to sit on. The vertical
sides, the forward one in front of the forward girder and the rear one aft of 
the aft girder, are bolted
through the aluminum and the girders. The top surface has been drilled and 
tapped for machine
screws come through the mast step block. The mast has been drilled and a pin 
goes through it and
the mast step casting to lock the mast down. A safety requirement for the Lake 
Ontario Offshore
races. In case of a problem the base of the mast is not free to move around in 
the cabin.

I planned on a trial fit of the mast in tuned position and backstay tightened 
to check where the
contact point was and might have to change the geometry to center the load.
By luck it was pretty much in the middle of the mast casting so I left it.

Side to side "level" may be as critical as fore to aft. The fore to aft on 
Windburn was a guess
with the intention to set it level.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2017 07:11:56 + (UTC) 
From: RANDY  

Listers-  
 
Seeking your input here. I'm in the middle of the mast step rebuild project a 
la http://cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/maststep/maststep.htm . Lots of 
pictures of the project at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTSzRLbFo0NDl6U1E .  
 
I'll be cutting new supports from laminated GPO-3 slabs Saturday night or 
Sunday morning. Before installing the new supports, I have to decide on the 
elevation of the aft support. Of course I took careful elevation measurements 
from the cabin sole before removing the original supports. But the question is, 
what was the original shape of the top of the aft support?  
 
I believe the middle of Grenadine's aft support, under the mast step block, was 
compressed down from its original elevation due to a combination of weakness in 
the support and standing rigging tension (especially backstay). Have a look at 
the pictures and you can clearly see what I mean, e.g. 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTLXZuXzd1T1pkR28. This compression 
has the effect of pitching the mast step aft, thereby moving the masthead aft, 
thereby increasing weather helm (which I've definitely noticed under enough 
wind and sail - it was strong under full main and #2 genoa in 30 kts, not 
surprisingly).  
 
However I also believe that the original elevation of the aft support may have 
been carefully tuned for helm balance, prior to compression below the mast step 
block due to weak wood and standing rigging tension.  
 
The reason this elevation question matters so much is because, using 
trigonometry, I can calculate the distance by which different elevations of the 
aft support will move the masthead forward or aft, which in turn will affect 
helm balance. Each quarter inch of aft support elevation difference could move 
the masthead about three inches I believe.  
 
The last picture 
(https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTU3hRNmZoMUU1MFk) in the Google 
Drive folder linked above shows the templates from which I'll cut the new 
supports, traced from the original supports removed from Grenadine's bilge. I 
hypothesize that the dashed line I drew at the top of the aft support template 
may have been the aft support's original elevation.  
 
I'm halfways tempted to split the difference and cut the new aft support to 
have that elevation. Of course, I could be full of crap, because I tune the 
mast rake using the stays after all, which probably influences helm balance 
more than mast step pitch. And of course I can control the sail selection and 
sail trim, which probably influence helm balance more than mast step pitch. 
However, for a given sail selection close-hauled, with neither the backstay nor 
forestay over-tensioned, the mast step pitch would certainly influence the 
masthead position and therefore the combined center of effort of the sail plan. 
 
 
What say ye? Does anyone out there know if the top of the original aft mast 
step support on a 30-1 was flat all the way across, or did it come from the 
factory with a little elevation drop to tune helm balance? I'll be committing 
an assumption about that to a GPO-3 slab with my jigsaw in the next day or two. 
 
 
Thanks in advance,  
Randy Stafford  
S/V Grenadine  
C 30-1 #7  
Ken Caryl, CO  

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Re: Stus-List putting teak hand rails back together - tips

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

On Windburn the external rails are held down using SS hanger bolts.
They are convenient to lay a bead of butyl around while installing.
So far ( 17 years ) no concern with strength.

The inside rail has a long screw that goes through the cabin top
and into the external rail.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1

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Re: Stus-List Recharging a battery

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

That should be Caustic Soda, not Baking Soda.

If a battery in otherwise good shape has self discharged to the point of being 
flat has
a bit of Epsom Salt or such added it might help recover the battery. No magic 
going
on. With a flat battery it is hard to get a current flow started and the cells 
may not
respond equally. A small amount of some metallic salt will allow charging and 
help
with equal charging.

I have used a variable power supply to recover a new but flat AGM. They were 
left
uncharged for about 3 years. It required around 30v to get a 0.05 amp charge
started, which gradually became 0.1 amps at around 20v after a couple of days.
Out of three dead AGM two have recovered and I was able to run a discharge /
normal charge test on them. The other AGM only recovered to 10.4v after sitting
idle, one cell never charged.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




From: "Stu"  

Has anyone tried the baking soda/epson salt method to recharge a dead battery? 
 
Stu 
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Re: Stus-List Automatic bilge pump

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I installed the Whaler Gulper 320 in the area under the forward dining bench 
seat
and used a remote pickup directly under the mast step. I wired in a Whale BE9006
electronic bilge switch with delay and have a three way ON - OFF - AUTO switch.

The combination works well. When there was a centrifugal pump doing the work
without a check valve there was always water sloshing around. Now it is pretty 
dry.

The discharge line still runs to the port stern and exits about 6" down from the
toe rail. Despite the 320 GPH rating of the Gulper and the ~ 500 GPH rating on
the previous pump I think the Gulper is pumping as well or better.

One other advantage is that when Windburn is on the hard and covered I can
use a wet / dry vac on the pickup line and get the bilge dry enough that I do
not have to use antifreeze.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
 


From: Josh Muckley  

Check out a water witch switch. 
 
I had automatic Rule that "sensed" the presence of water every 2.5 
minutes.  It was so inconsistent about turning off that I ga e up and used 
it like a manual pump. 
 
The I think it was OEM but may have been the PO that wired the manual 
switch and a float switch in parallel.  I can start the pump and pump it 
pretty close to dry when I'm there to do it.  The rest of the time the 
float lifts up and starts the pump. I have a water witch switch that I've 
been meaning to install as well as a whale diaphragm pump. 
 
My discharge is very near to the water under the reversed transom.  I like 
the concealed nature of the location but it necessitates a high point loop 
so that there is no chance of submerging the discharge and then siphoning 
back into the bilge.  Since there is a high point of discharge tubing, 
every time the pump shuts off, the tubing drains back and partially refills 
the bilge.  I installed a check valve but the centrifugal pumps still rely 
on having about 1/2 of water so no matter what my bilge is never dry.  When 
my rule pump died I was in a pinch and it was late at night.  Walmart was 
the only option so I got a normal starting (not automatic), attwood, I 
think it is the 800gph but it might be the 1200gph.  It has lasted 4 
seasons now. 
 
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Tsunami-800-GPH-Cartridge-Bilge-Pump-12VDC/11071214 
 
The whale pump is a positive displacement diaphragm pump which is capable 
of self priming and can provide lift of up to 10 feet.  In short it can 
nearly suck the bilge dry.  I've had it in mind to install it such that 
after the centrifugal pump turns off to have the whale start and finish the 
job.  The whale pump has at least 2 built in check valves, so the risk of 
drain back is pretty much eliminated AND it will pump air so it is 
effectively blowing down the lines dry.  The only drawback is that it is 
pretty small on the capacity scale - 300 gph. 
 
http://www.whalepumps.com/marine/product.aspx?Category_ID=10008_ID=10014=Gulper-320
 
 
https://waterwitchinc.com/bilge-switches/ 
 
I also have provisions to use the shower dewatering pump and/or the engine 
raw water pump to suck out the bilge as well as the manual pump. 
 
Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 
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Re: Stus-List Exterior Teak Varnish Recommendation?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I have been using Cetol for a while, same gallon can for 10 years.
It is basically an oil based teak coloured stain, completely different
from a varnish. It works well on Lake Ontario and when the exuberance
during racing requires a touch up I also like the ease of maintenance.


What is the new equivalent to the old just oil Cetol?


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1





From: Fred Hazzard  
 
I like how easy  Cetol is to repair dings and scratches. A light feathering 
sand and apply another coat. 
 
Fred Hazzard 
S/V Fury 
Portland, Or 
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Re: Stus-List Deteriorated mast step

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Klacko Spars is still making some C parts out of cast aluminum. No idea about 
mast steps.

www.klackospars.com

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


From: T power via CnC-List   
Subject: Stus-List Deteriorated mast step 
 
 
 
Hi, I own a C 30 MKI that has a badly eroded aluminum mast step, is there a 
place where I can get a replacement. 
 
Thanks for any help. 
 
Cheers, 
 
Tom 
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Re: Stus-List marinco/shorepower inlet

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

>  I also screw the locking collar tight to ensure a tight connection.

I watched a boat leave the dock with the power still connected. I am impressed
at how well that locking collar worked. It was the metal one into the metal 
version
of the inlet. Once they got some slack it even undid and they could toss the 
line
back to someone on shore.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




From: "Dennis C."  

 
I have seen and replaced several deteriorated updated Marino inlets.  I 
like the Smart Plug.  Appears to be a superior product.  Would probably 
replace Touche's Marinco if it got flakey. 
 
Having said that, a few preventative steps can make your existing setup 
safer. I wrap my shore power cord around a winch before plugging it in. 
That prevents any side forces on the plug.  I also screw the locking collar 
tight to ensure a tight connection. 
 
Look at your inlet configuration.  If the cord is not supported and is 
hanging or otherwise placing side force on the inlet, devise a way to 
support it. 
 
Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 
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Re: Stus-List Battery test

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Some background:

http://4xspower.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bci-ohmicreadings.pdf

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



From: Josh Muckley  

I'd like to know more about the technology, how it works, and how accurate 
it is. 
 
Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 
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Re: Stus-List Battery test

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

> Typically batteries are only considered at their end of life until they 
> only test at 50% of original labeled capacity.

A rough guess for a marine deep cycle battery is that during a Reserve Capacity
test if the under load voltage drops to 11v at less that half the run time the
battery has less than 50% of the original capacity.

> There is no need to go full discharge.

If the battery is in known good shape you can extrapolate the capacity from a
partial discharge.  A defective battery may still work correctly and follow a
normal discharge curve for a while, then rapidly it's voltage will fall off.

Sort of like the "Discharge curve of SLA batteries" from here:

http://www.steveduncan.net/html/discharge_testing_slas.html

Testing those three batteries for 15 minutes would yield similar results, but
only one battery has full capacity.

Which is what you are saying with your junk batteries.

So in some cases going to full discharge may make sense.


Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




From: Josh Muckley <muckl...@gmail.com> 
 
There is no need to go full discharge.  The voltage and capacity properties 
of a lead-acid battery have a near linear relationship so a 50% discharge 
is fine for testing.  That should be 11.6v.  All of this is just a 
comparison.  A brand new battery might show +/- 10% of the labeled rating. 
That doesn't mean that you got a good or bad battery.  It's just an 
indication of how difficult it is to accurately measure the capacity. 
Typically batteries are only considered at their end of life until they 
only test at 50% of original labeled capacity.  Capacity tests really are 
most powerful as a trending and comparison measurement rather than a 
go/no-go.  I've successfully used 100Ah batteries that measured at only 
7Ah.  I know they are junk but keep them around for various workbench 
projects.  I've even used them to successfully start my spare marine diesel 
sitting in the garage. 
 
Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 
 
On Feb 7, 2017 5:09 PM, "Michael Brown via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
wrote: 
 
> If you have the original battery Reserve Capacity specs it is an 
> acceptable quick test 
> to see if the battery is good but maybe worn or at end of life. 
> 
> If possible test the battery(s) individually, Charge fully, bring battery 
> to around 80F and 
> time how long it will sustain a 25 amp load before reaching 10.5v. Note 
> that takes the 
> battery to almost complete discharge and may significantly shorten it's 
> life. If the voltage 
> gets to 11.0v and the time is less than half the RC spec there is not much 
> to be gained 
> testing further, the battery is worn out. 
> 
> The 10.5v sounds pretty bad but that is an under load voltage and is 
> different from an 
> at rest voltage. 
> 
> Michael Brown 
> Windburn 
> C 30-1 
> 
> 
> 
> ___ 
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you 
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to: 
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> 
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated! 
> 
> 
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Message: 4 
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2017 17:44:53 -0600 
From: Frederick G Street <f...@postaudio.net> 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Battery test 
Message-ID: <31218ecf-62be-4a0e-83ec-552d052b5...@postaudio.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 
 
I think I?ll stick with my Midtronics conductive tester; good, accurate results 
on the health of my golf-cart and start batteries, it only takes a minute, and 
no chance of starting things on fire?   :^) 
 
Fred Street -- Minneapolis 
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^( 
 
> On Feb 7, 2017, at 4:52 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
> wrote: 
>  
> There is no need to go full discharge.  The voltage and capacity properties 
> of a lead-acid battery have a near linear relationship so a 50% discharge is 
> fine for testing.  That should be 11.6v.  All of this is just a comparison.  
> A brand new battery might show +/- 10% of the labeled rating.  That doesn't 
> mean that you got a good or bad battery.  It's just an indication of how 
> difficult it is to accurately measure the capacity.  Typically batteries are 
> only considered at their end of life until they only test at 50% of original 
> labeled capacity.  Capacity tests really are most powerful as a trending and 
> comparison measurement rather than a go/no-go.  I've successfully used 100Ah 
> batteries that measured at on

Re: Stus-List Battery test

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

If you have the original battery Reserve Capacity specs it is an acceptable 
quick test
to see if the battery is good but maybe worn or at end of life.

If possible test the battery(s) individually, Charge fully, bring battery to 
around 80F and
time how long it will sustain a 25 amp load before reaching 10.5v. Note that 
takes the
battery to almost complete discharge and may significantly shorten it's life. 
If the voltage
gets to 11.0v and the time is less than half the RC spec there is not much to 
be gained
testing further, the battery is worn out.

The 10.5v sounds pretty bad but that is an under load voltage and is different 
from an
at rest voltage.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


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Re: Stus-List Deck Coring Around Chainplates

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I did a similar process with the PO. It lasted about 10 years then started 
leaking a small
amount. The caulking had hardened and was not sealing well against the chain 
plate.
The caulking came away from the SS easily, was a job scraping it away from the 
deck.

I tried a marine silicon based sealant the next time, never sealed that well.

Third time I used Bed-It Butyl ( thanks Ed for splitting an order ). Much 
easier and has
sealed perfectly.  I like being able to lift the plate, check / move / add 
butyl if required.
That may be one of the few spots were there is appreciable movement that the 
caulking
has to deal with, and staying stuck to SS is tough.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



From: RANDY  
 
Thanks Josh, and Danny, and Mike.  
 
Dennis C. is out here in Colorado from Louisiana for a few weeks to do some 
skiing, so he gave me some free consulting today (well, I did take him to the 
local Cajun joint the other week and buy him a po'boy and a couple beers, which 
was the least I could do).  
 
Anyway Dennis looked at my chainplate cutouts today and we made a plan of 
attack for the job, which basically amounts to a re-seal: dig out an inch of 
core around the cutouts, fill with thickened epoxy (with the chainplates in 
place), then re-seal. Of course that's a summarization and there is some devil 
in the details, and I appreciate all of your tips. But that should be 
sufficient to prevent any further water intrusion into the core. I'm not having 
any deck strength issues.  
 
I'll post some pics of during and after the project. Thanks again Dennis!  
 
Cheers,  
Randy  
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Re: Stus-List Anyone had experience with Starbrite Star Tron Fuel Tank Cleaner?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I drain mine in the fall and use it in the snow blower - gas from an Atomic 4.

There are various opinions on how much condensation is even possible at lower
temperatures and small amounts of air pumping back and forth.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/fuel_tankt_condensation

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm

Although I have never seen water from over the winter I still fill and drain
a bit of gas through the tank in the spring then use it in the lawnmower.
Fact or fiction it is still an easy maintenance step.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



From: "Jake Brodersen"  

Josh, 
 
I always fill my tank up at the end of the season to keep condensation down.  A 
half full tank will ?make water? with the daily heating and cooling cycles.   
 
Jake 
 
 
Jake Brodersen 
 
C 35 Mk-III ?Midnight Mistress? 
 
Hampton VA 
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Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Chlorine does react with SS. I would be careful using it on a boat in high 
concentrations.
Also standard bleach is not a cleaner unless it has some additives. I think the 
chlorine
tablets remain stable for a while but liquid bleach like Clorox breaks down 
into salt and
water even while sealed. In places that need known concentrations the suggested 
shelf
life is six months. If it is stored outside of 50 - 70F it may break down 
faster.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 15:09:52 -0500 
From: "Bill Coleman"  
To:  
Subject: Re: Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment. 
Message-ID: <1b3301d27810$28a15fc0$79e41f40$@net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 
 
Matt, you probably dissolved a hole in your tank. 
 
Chlorine is super corrosive.  I put a little chlorine pool pill in my intake 
strainer, and it corroded the 316 SS screen so bad half of it was gone.  Didn?t 
take that long either. 
 
  
 
Bill Coleman 
 
C 39 
 
  
 
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Matthew L. 
Wolford via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 11:50 AM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Matthew L. Wolford 
Subject: Re: Stus-List cleaning the engine compartment. 
 
  
 
I discovered something by accident a few years ago.  I decided to clean the 
cruddy, old freshwater tank on my 34 by putting in some water and a gallon of 
Clorox and letting it slosh around.  I discovered a day or two later that the 
tank had leaked and nearly all the contents had drained into the bilge (which 
was more or less filled).  When I removed the highly chlorinated water from the 
bilge, it was remarkably clean. 
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Re: Stus-List mast wedge and hatch lens

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I did not have much success keeping hardwood wedges in place and tight on 
Windburn.
Spartite is an option but after some discussions with a fellow racer that does 
rigging and
a sailmaker I tested to see how much mast bend I get under normal maximum 
backstay
tension. The sailmaker looked and said it was negligible, my untrained eye 
didn't see any.
The concern is that I am getting additional rake which tightens the headsail 
luff but is that
effectively transferring a lot of force into the cabin top / mast collar ( 
backwards ) and
mast step ( forwards ) while requiring extra backstay tension? I understand 
with "flexible"
masts that blocking at the mast collar is required and inducing bend flattens 
the main.
I don't see much of that on my C 30-1.

So I wondered what the pro / cons were for blocking tightly. I made some 
measurements,
tested hard rubber strips for minimum compression and fitted Windburn with them.

Maybe the backstay requires a little less force to fully tighten, other than 
that I have not
noticed any change in tune or sailing characteristics. The mast is snug but can 
move 3/16"
forward and back ( rough measurement ) in the collar.

The wedges might hold the mast collar down, opposing the effect of halyards 
trying to
lift it and cabin top compression from the chain plates. Windburn has split 
mast collar
hold down brackets with a bolt adjustment. Another tuning step every spring.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1

 





From: Jeffrey Nelson  

 
If you have access to a bandsaw/tablesaw, it's fairly easy to make your  
own wedges from a chunk of hardwood.  I don't know of anyone 
who has them comercially available.  I milled my own a while back from a  
chunk of wood I grabbed off my wood lot.  The wedges are 
tapered on one side.  I cut the taper on my table saw on a wide board,  
then ripped the board into the width for the wedge to make a 
bunch.  2 inches seems wide for the wedge.  More wedges and narrower  
will make fitting easier.  I think I've got 8 or so around my 
mast.   You must have a place like: 
http://www.kjpselecthardwoods.com/ 
around Kingston somewhere as a good source for some 4/4 or 6/4 hardwood. 
 
Another option is to use a product like: 
https://www.spartite.com/Default.aspx?SiteID=3 
 
I replaced my forward hatch lens a number of years ago for much of the  
same reasons you are now.  I don't remember the 
exact product, but I suspect it wasn't acrylic.  Some other  
polycarbonate.  Any plastics shop should be able to recommend the 
righ material for UV resistance and strength. 
 
Hope this helps. 
 
--  
Cheers, 
     Jeff Nelson 
     Muir Caileag 
     C 30 
     Armdale Y.C. 
     Halifax 
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Re: Stus-List mast wedge and hatch lens

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Welcome aboard. Nice boat ;-)

I have tried a few things for the mast wedges. Last year I purchased a small 
roll of heavy rubber floor mat
from Princess Auto ( was on a bulk roll, cut a minimum 1' off ). I cut it into 
two pads since I have a hold down
clamp on both sides. They are a snug fit covering the front and rear of the 
mast up the sides to the clamp.
Worked well, stayed in and did not crush but allowed a small amount of motion.

For a hatch replacement the two main choices are Acrylic and Polycarbonate. I 
would guess Acrylic is a
common choice, I have worked with a small shop locally on a few projects. They 
do boat work including
large windshields, small stuff like instrument panels. 

If interested contact Dale here:

http://www.acryliccustomdesign.com/

They have a high end flat bed laser cutting system and Acrylic specific 
machining tools. They can make
stuff from drawings if required.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



From: Kevin Deluzio  

 
Hi,  
     I?m in the first year of owning a 1980 C 30 Mk1, (- love the boat -) and 
I have a couple questions that I am hoping some of you may be able to help me 
with - thanks in advance.  
 
First - mast wedges 
     The boat came with about 3 or 4 wooden wedges about 1? x 2? x 4? that were 
wedged between the mast and the mast collar where it went through the deck. 
They were falling out most of the season. I am told that the original design 
had 4 wooden wedges that countered the mast to fill in the entire 360degrees 
around the mast. Is that true? What is a best way to replace these - Spartite ? 
 
Second - hatch lens replacement 
     The V-berth hatch lens was cracked and leaking last season. I have removed 
the lens and plan to replace it myself. Hoping that the supplier can cut the 
new one to shape using the old as a blank, or I have access to a bandsaw to do 
that part of the job. What?s the best material for this - Acrylic? Any advice 
from others who have done this job before?  
 
thanks 
Kevin 
 
Kevin Deluzio 
1980 C 30 
Kingston, ON, 
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Re: Stus-List freeze proofing

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The pink RV style antifreeze does freeze solid though it is suppose to not 
expand enough
to break copper pipes at least down to the rated temperature. It may break 
plastic before
the rated temperature.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



From: RANDY  

Thanks Rick, that's a relief to hear. I've been worried that I didn't let my A4 
warm up enough to open the thermostat before sucking anti-freeze through it. I 
did run about five gallons of fresh water through it before two gallons of pink 
anti-freeze, and I did confirm pink anti-freeze was coming out the exhaust 
before shutting it down. Will find out next spring whether my winterizing was 
good enough, and will be more thorough next fall. Meanwhile it's too late now - 
we've already had a sub-zero night, and the lake is iced over enough to hold my 
stupid dogs up on the ice.  
 
Cheers,  
Randy Stafford  
S/V Grenadine  
C 30-1 #7  
Ken Caryl, CO  
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Stus-List Was Rewiring mast and anchor light, now Windex light

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I started with something similar to this for the housing:

http://www.westmarine.com/buy/power-pro--4-led-courtesy-light-surface-mount-with-chrome-case-red-led--17030297?recordNum=106

The one I have is all white plastic, similar but I think a different 
manufacturer. 

I removed the original LEDs, replaced them with wide angle RED leds and used 
silicon to waterproof it again.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/50-pcs-3mm-Flat-top-Red-LED-Wide-Angle-Flat-Head-Light-lamp-New-Free-Shipping-/180973391516?hash=item2a22dace9c:g:JbsAAOxy7odRzv9~

It has its own supply wire that runs from the cockpit switch for the binnacle 
compass ( C 30-1 ).

Not required but I removed the red tape from the Windex and replaced it with 3M 
red reflective tape.

At night it stands out well but does not interfere with night vision or look 
like an incorrect navigation light
from a couple of hundred feet away.

 Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
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Re: Stus-List Spinnaker pole handling

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

On Windburn we do end-for-end due to carrying an oversized pole.
The J is 13.5' and the the pole is 14.4'. We normally do not have guys.

If there is difficulty keeping the chute stable and helping out foredeck
by steering the chute try centering the main for a moment just as they
are about to snap in the mast end.

Further to what Dennis is advising I find that losing the sail area of the
spinnaker due to it not drawing well is slower than losing the sail area
of the main for 5 - 10 seconds during the gybe. Note that the symmetrical
spinnaker is 850 sq ft vs 225 sq ft for the main on Windburn.

In very light winds when gybing from a hot angle centering the main
also helps to keep the spinnaker from collapsing and wrapping the
forestay.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


From: "Dennis C."  
 
Charlie, 
 
While many consider 35-36 feet the upper limit for end for end gybes, we 
use end for end with an aluminum pole on Touche' (35-1).  With the right 
technique, you shouldn't have issues. 
 
I've been doing foredeck since the mid 90's.  I think the key to a good, 
and safe, end for end gybe is the driver and the way the driver and crew 
think about the gybe. 
 
Many sailors think a chute gybe is moving the chute across the boat.  I 
don't subscribe to that philosophy. 
 
A better way to think about gybing is you're moving the BOAT under the 
chute.  Doesn't sound like much of a difference but it really is.  The idea 
is to keep the chute flying and drawing while the driver gradually steers 
the boat to the new course.  If the chute continues to fly effectively, 
connecting the pole to the new sheet and then the mast will be nearly 
effortless. 
 
Sit down with your crew and talk about gybing with this philosophy.  It may 
be the difference you need. 
 
Dennis C. 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
Mandeville, LA 
 
On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: 
 
> We use a carbon fiber pole on Water Phantom, C 36 XL/kcb, for our 
> kite(s) and have 'oscillated' back and forth between doing dip-pole jibes 
> or end-for-end. The pole is a relatively light Forte carbon fiber pole with 
> snap-in fitting on both ends. 
> 
> We always use lazy sheets and guys. 
> 
> As the driver, I don't have strong feelings about which method we use or 
> should use. 
> 
> However, especially in breezes above 8 knots, it looks to me like our 
> jibes are taking too much time when we end for end the pole. Of course I 
> share some of the blame if I can't keep the boat headed downwind during the 
> jibe but even when I seem to manage keeping her downwind, the mast man 
> struggles to get the pole into the fitting and made--taking valuable time 
> and giving a lot of downwind separation to our competitors. Of course, it 
> also puts him at risk for the pole smashing him about the head and 
> shoulders if the pressure builds on the kite before he has it made. 
> 
> I am convinced that my boat can sail to her rating upwind in breezes above 
> about 8 knots--less not so much!--but downwind we often waste what seems 
> like too much time on jibing. I say this with confidence since when we 
> raced non-spin with a whisker pole, until we learned how to set the pole 
> downwind, we would beat every boat to the windward mark and have most of 
> them pass us on the way downwind. Once we got the mechanics straightened 
> out, no one passed us downwind even if a few gained on us. 
> 
> OTOH, if we dip pole, the bow person often gets the new guy in the pole in 
> the incorrect position (with his back to the bow), so there is certainly a 
> need for more practice. 
> 
> My question for the list is what method should we invest practice time in 
> so that jibing can be as routine as tacking. It seems that at 36 ft Water 
> Phantom and a fiber pole could go either way but I would prefer to always 
> use the same method so that we have a chance to get quick at it. 
> 
> Charlie Nelson 
> Water Phantom 
> C 36 XL/kcb 
> 
> cenel...@aol.com 
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Re: Stus-List speed instrument frustration

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I had the Signet wind instrument set on Windburn. To get inter-connectivity I 
switched
to Raymarine ST-50 wind. My feeling is the Signet responded faster, was more 
accurate
and would work to a lower wind speed. I called Signet support once, they helped 
me
get a part number for a component and offered to ship one to me or cross 
reference
it so I could purchase locally.

Note that the SL254 has apparent wind only, no way to switch to true under way.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


From: Nate Flesness  

I just discovered (new to me at least) that Signet Marine sells refurbished 
Signet Marine traditional round instruments and sensors. 
http://www.signetmarine.com/products-2/used_instruments/used.html. They 
give seemingly-appropriate warnings about reduced appearance and expected 
lifespan, and prices look medium. 
I might consider this for my wind stuff (already replaced speed and depth 
instruments on my 36 year old 30-1). 
 
No connection to SIgnet. 
 
Nate 
Sarah Jean 
1980 30-1 
on the hard on the St. Croix River, WI. 
 
and 
Valhalla 
1994 Tartan 31 
on the hard Siskiwit Bay Marina 
Cornucopia, WI 
Lake Superior 
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Re: Stus-List Inverter to Outlet Via Extension Cord?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

 
 
 Interesting topic considering it does reduce down to connecting three wires
more or less. The executive overview is that hopefully the inverter, circuit 
breaker
panel and GFCI will come with good instructions on how they need to be wired.

At least some of the GFCI are recommended for use in two wire only retrofits.
The requirement is that somewhere at the power source there is a ground.
These units may come with a sticker saying "non grounded outlet". The test
button still works since it jumpers over the sensing circuitry from hot to
neutral, no EGC required.

Maybe this will explain it a lot better:

https://www.nema.org/Products/Documents/NEMA-GFCI-2012-Field-Representative-Presentation.pdf

Check out page 14.

A point I was commenting on was that even with a correctly wired AC system, EGC 
and earth ground
bonded together at the correct location and everything to spec a person can 
still get electrocuted.
It is a safety requirement though more so to help the utility with lightning 
strikes and to ensure the
OCPD ( circuit breaker ) trips if a load shorts out. Tongue in cheek was the 
comment that the ground
path is likely the current return if a person gets a shock. If there is a 
problem with the earth ground
even a GFCI may not help. In a marina or club if all the grounds are correctly 
tied together a persons
safety is dependent on the quality of the worst installation using shore power.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


From: Josh Muckley  

"So if the inverter is floating and has no ground you cannot get a ground 
fault shock. If there is a ground wired in you could get a shock but the 
GFCI should trip. Maybe having the GFCI in is a good thing in that if there 
was a defect in the load you would never know it without a ground. With 
it the GFCI would keep tripping letting you know something is wrong." 
 
Michael, As you stated the GFCI is comparing the current on both the hot 
and neutral.  When a difference is sensed it trips the GFCI.  You mentioned 
that without a ground the GFCI won't trip.  2 thoughts come to mind. 
First, without a ground, the GFCI won't trip during a "test".  The 
pushbutton connects a high resistance to the ground prong creating a leak 
path for current so in that case you're completely right the GFCI won't 
trip.  Second, the GFCI is still sensitive to a difference in current 
between hot and neutral.  You can wire a GFCI ungrounded and it will still 
trip during a fault.  You need a leak path.  Most GFCI outlets are 
sensitive to 5mA.  The idea that the inverter is using an ungrounded system 
and as a result, you won't trip the GFCI sounds synonymous with the idea 
that since I'm wearing rubber shoes, standing on carpet, in a wood frame 
house I won't get shocked by the hot.  I can tell you from experience, you 
will get shocked! 
 
All of this discussion about floating AC actually gets me thinking about 
whether or not the GFCI outlet has a disconnect on both the hot and neutral 
lines.  Even if the GFCI trips the neutral prong may still be connected to 
the neutral wire which in a home isn't a problem, but with a floating AC 
system you could still be exposed to voltage.  We had problems similar to 
this while on Navy ships.  The crew had bought generic computer surge 
protectors which all needed replaced with high dollar ones since the 
generic ones only protect the hot terminal. 
 
Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
1989 C 37+ 
Solomons, MD 
 

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Inverter to Outlet Via Extension Cord?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I think you have it, that is how a GFCI works.

In the case of an inverter that is floating use of a ground is a bit of an 
oxymoron.

The principle is that every electron that comes out of one connection has to go
back to the other connection. If the GFCI is directly connected to the two 
connections
on the inverter, then two connections to the load the current should always be
the same. There is no other path for the electrons to take.

As Joe points out you should be able to grab either line and stand in a puddle
of water without getting a shock or tripping the GFCI. There is no path for the
current back to the other terminal.

If you add a ground or connect to a ground now there is a second path
likely to whichever side is deemed the neutral. That connection is to the
power source and bypasses the GFCI. So if the ground conducts any
current the flow through the GFCI is not balanced and it will trip.

The ground lead does not have to connect to the GFCI, maybe it does
but there is no need.

The two UL standards, which may seem a bit strange at first, make sense
in that they accommodate what may be already in place that the inverter
is connecting to. In a power failure backup mode to a wired building there
will be a ground to neutral bond already at the distribution panel if the
inverter is connecting there. With no utility involved ( off grid ) the wiring
codes may still require a ground and bonding in the inverter.

On a boat I do not know what to recommend. If the loads ( appliances )
are all three prong, all the outlets are wired with ground and the inverter
supports a bonded ground and GFCI maybe that is the way to hook it up.
If the inverter auto switches from battery to shore power then you are
wired normally when on shore power. If the AC is stand alone or a three
pole switch completely disconnects when going to shore power wiring
in a ground and GFCI is not going to hurt. Doesn't help much either.

So if the inverter is floating and has no ground you cannot get a ground
fault shock. If there is a ground wired in you could get a shock but the
GFCI should trip. Maybe having the GFCI in is a good thing in that if there
was a defect in the load you would never know it without a ground. With
it the GFCI would keep tripping letting you know something is wrong.

Not that there is ever any wiring problems on old sailboats 

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



From: Tortuga  

"Similarly with an inverter connected to a battery that is not grounded a 
GFCI should 
never trip. Theoretically in a floating system the power has to come out of 
the Hot 
lead and return in the Neutral. There will never be a ground fault to trip 
a GFCI. 
There is no ground." 
 
I'm not an electrician, but my limited understanding is that a Ground Fault 
Circuit Interrupter monitors the hot and neutral leads and interrupts the 
circuit almost instantly if it detects a difference between them. The 
ground lead does not come into it. 
 
The Xantrex Freedom HF 1000 that I mentioned in an earlier post is *UL458* 
-listed. 
 
"The two UL standards differ in how they handle AC system grounding: 
*UL1741*-listed inverters must allow for the neutral-to-ground bond to 
*only* occur at the main AC service panel. *UL458*-listed inverters have 
internal neutral-to-ground switching relays to allow for this bond to occur 
at the inverter if in off-grid mode, OR at the utility power service if it 
is connected to a utility hookup." 
 
Perhaps I'm missing something. 
 
Derek Kennedy 
SV Tortuga, 30 mk1 
Ballantyne's Cove, NS 
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Re: Stus-List Slip Choice, backing in > Prop Change

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The Gori did poorly, though note it was a three blade folding.
Also Gori spec'd the wrong size of prop according to a note
at the end of the article.

It is a good article but I noted that most of the props stopped
from 6 kts in 8 - 10 seconds, the majority of them did 6.4 - 6.65 kts
ahead. For me the biggest differences would be in prop walk
from 9 to 16%, nearly 70% more prop walk force.

Overall the Flex-O-Fold 2 blade looks to be a good choice.
The Gori 2 blade physically is very similar to the Flex-O-Fold.

Anyone have experience testing those two against each other?

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1


From: "Nauset Beach"  
 
Mike, 
 
Several people on the list have retired their Martec props for the very 
reason you cite: very poor reverse performance.  Many have changed to 2 
blade Flex-O-Fold geared props and the difference in reverse is dramatic.   
 
Take a look at a prop test article from Yachting Monthly in the UK that 
Flex-O-Fold posted on their website at this link:  
 
http://www.flexofold.com/upload_dir/docs/Test_YachtingMonthly_low.pdf  
 
The Gori did not rank very well.   
 
I believe everyone who has switched to a Flex prop has been happy, once they 
get the pitch correct.  I was initially spec'ed a 16 Diameter x 13 Pitch to 
replace a 16 x 14 Martec,.  That was too much pitch and was getting severe 
cavitation / vibration.  Now I have a 16 x 12 with better performance and 
very little vibration.   
 
Brian 
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Re: Stus-List Inverter to Outlet Via Extension Cord?

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Hopefully the inverter will come with very clear instructions on how to
handle ground and neutral.

For normal power, ie shore power, this is the US code:

"The National Electrical Code ( NEC ) requires the AC source to have a Neutral 
to ground bond
and that there be only one such bond in the entire AC system."

So only at the distribution panel is there a bond between neutral and ground. 
They should
never be connected together intentionally at the load. This document covers 
grounding and
bonding, may also cure insomnia.

https://www.engineereducators.com/docs/groundingandbonding2-2.pdf

Grounding an AC system is done to limit the effect of a lightning strike, maybe 
an upstream
over voltage fault. Bonding the green wire that comes in a three prong plug ( 
also called a
ground ) to Neutral at the distribution panel is to ensure a low resistance 
return path for
a fault. So if anything happens the desired effect is that a hot to ground 
short will occur
which in turn will cause an over current surge blowing the circuit breakers.

A person can be electrocuted even with a properly installed and grounded AC 
system
without the circuit breakers tripping.

Unless an inverter has some specific design that uses a ground bonding the 
Neutral and
ground together is not going to do much. Check out the last Q from Xantrex 
here:

http://www.xantrex.com/documents/tech-doctor/universal/tech4-universal.pdf

Similarly with an inverter connected to a battery that is not grounded a GFCI 
should
never trip. Theoretically in a floating system the power has to come out of the 
Hot
lead and return in the Neutral. There will never be a ground fault to trip a 
GFCI.
There is no ground.

I suppose an inverter manufacturer could create a third connection back to the
power circuit Neutral that bypasses the GFCI. A short to that wire would cause
an imbalance and trip the GFCI. Then you would be connecting a floating
Neutral to the loads "ground" which may be exactly what the Xantrex article says
not to do.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
 




From: Ron Ricci  

David, 
 
I've followed some of this thread and have a few concerns where some have 
mentioned using an inexpensive inverter.   
 
Using an inverter that is not intended for marine use or not properly 
grounded can cause problems.  An inverter can produce short duration spikes 
which exceed the insulation rating of most wires.  This becomes an issue in 
wet areas and will cause insulation failure.   
 
There are other issues relating to inducing corrosion.  A friend who 
coincidentally keeps his boat in RI and is the technical support guru for a 
company that sells variable frequency drives (inverters for AC motors) had 
to replace his propellers when he used an inverter he bought from Harbor 
Freight.  It was probably fine for anything other than marine use.  
 
If the neutral on the inverter is not grounded, the neutral can kill you 
regardless of the presence of a GFCI.   
 
Just my thoughts, 
 
Ron Ricci 
S/V Patriot 
C 37+ 
Bristol, RI 
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Re: Stus-List mold killer product Wet and Forget question

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

You could try a mild solution with Borax. If a bit of the solution
is left behind the alkaline environment is reported to be unfavorable
to molds.

Here is a discussion of Borax, Wet and Forget and the chemicals involved.

http://www.psifly.com/cr2/index.php?topic=24991.0

I use Borax in the fall to wipe down the various cubbyholes in the cabin.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1 





http://www.psifly.com/cr2/index.php?topic=24991.0


Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2016 13:43:56 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Chuck S  
 
Anyone have any experience with a product called, "Wet and Forget".  ?? 
It is supposed to be enviromentally safe, but kills mold by simply spraying on 
and let it air dry.  Available at Lowes and Home Depot. 
 
I'm interested in treating the ceiling and walls of my boat's cabin, as last 
year it was a real battle with sunny days warming the cabin and cold nights 
making condensation form on the cold decks and windows.  Until the weather 
finally stayed cold, I was wiping down the ceilings and walls every visit.   
 
I guess I should add those humidity absorbing tubs too.  Any brands better than 
others?  
 
Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C 34R 
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 

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