Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting

[Russ & Melody via CnC-List]

Hi Patrick,

Interesting problem here. Thinking a little 
outside the box... okay, maybe more than a little.


Anyone given thought to using the autopilot drive 
to drive the cable instead of the tiller arm? 
Zero mods required to the existing quadrant assembly.


2 of these in opposition connected by S/S 
plate(s), which the drive is bolted to, might be 
feasible if the drive output is less than a ton.

https://www.amazon.ca/Blesiya-Steel-Tensioning-Pulling-25-70/dp/B07JYCVGQB?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q=duc12-20=xm2=2025=165953=B07JYCVGQB

Or a number of these in series all bolted to a plate may work also
https://www.amazon.ca/Amanaote-Stainless-Steel-Standard-Double/dp/B00PVSPUUG?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q=duc12-20=xm2=2025=165953=B00PVSPUUG

A pessimist would say that the autopilot will 
becomes useless if the cable system breaks.


And the optimist would counter, "Why would you 
build a system which you expect to fail?"


Cheers, Russ
ex-Sweet 35 mk-1



At 04:21 PM 3/5/2019, you wrote:

Hi Paul,Â
Thanks for the ideas, lots of good ones!

> you wrote > * Edson sells a different radial 
drive which has a shorter height.  Replacing 
an existing with one of these would be costly 
but it could free up shaft space for the tiller 
arm.  One needs to check the specs for the 
shorter radials and see if that option is feasible.  Â


This is one idea Edson engineering suggested to 
me today actually!  Alden got back to me (after 
speaking with engineering) and has been very 
helpful. It would be a good deal of work 
swapping out the radial, and there are some 
subtle impacts to consider (I can't change the 
wire track height too much because if it causes 
steering cable chafe that will require shimming 
the idlers/sheaves). It also might require extending the rudder stop post.Â


Flipping the existing offset-disc radial upside 
down doesn't help because it would still consume 
the same amount of rudder shaft space (nearly 
all of it, leaving no room for a standard tiller arm).Â


Edson's other idea was to move the existing 
radial down by 1.75", bringing the concave 
portion of the disc closer to the rudder stock 
tube and freeing up enough space for the 1 5/8" 
tiller arm above the radial. This definitely 
requires idler/sheave modification though and 
rudder stop modification. In addition it's a 
very tight fit to the point where it might not 
work (1/8" clearance on cockpit floor and aft stern bulkhead).Â


Your 3rd idea is quite interesting, no one has 
thought of reusing the radial drive hub 
thrubolts. The hub is contoured and has a ridge, 
so it would have to be quite a custom part to get a good fit.Â


I've ruled out option B from my original email 
(Jefa quadrant with integrated tiller arm) 
because it turns out it too would require 
idler/sheave adjustments in addition to a custom 
rudder stop - basically complete steering system redesign.


I'm focusing on option A now, which was to have 
a machine shop make an "offset tiller arm" or 
"drop" tiller arm. I discovered the term "offset 
tiller arm" when I found Buck Algonquin makes 
them (but not in the right size for our boat, 
and they're bronze castings so they can't do a 
custom one - they do 1000+ unit production runs). Â

https://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/89112-89000-series-offset-tiller-arm

But having a machine shop make my own offset 
tiller arm seems doable, as long as I can find a 
machine shop willing to do it.Â


-Patrick
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Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Hi Paul,
Thanks for the ideas, lots of good ones!

> you wrote > * Edson sells a different radial drive which has a shorter
height.  Replacing an existing with one of these would be costly but it
could free up shaft space for the tiller arm.  One needs to check the specs
for the shorter radials and see if that option is feasible.

This is one idea Edson engineering suggested to me today actually!  Alden
got back to me (after speaking with engineering) and has been very helpful.
It would be a good deal of work swapping out the radial, and there are some
subtle impacts to consider (I can't change the wire track height too much
because if it causes steering cable chafe that will require shimming the
idlers/sheaves). It also might require extending the rudder stop post.

Flipping the existing offset-disc radial upside down doesn't help because
it would still consume the same amount of rudder shaft space (nearly all of
it, leaving no room for a standard tiller arm).

Edson's other idea was to move the existing radial down by 1.75", bringing
the concave portion of the disc closer to the rudder stock tube and freeing
up enough space for the 1 5/8" tiller arm above the radial. This definitely
requires idler/sheave modification though and rudder stop modification. In
addition it's a very tight fit to the point where it might not work (1/8"
clearance on cockpit floor and aft stern bulkhead).

Your 3rd idea is quite interesting, no one has thought of reusing the
radial drive hub thrubolts. The hub is contoured and has a ridge, so it
would have to be quite a custom part to get a good fit.

I've ruled out option B from my original email (Jefa quadrant with
integrated tiller arm) because it turns out it too would require
idler/sheave adjustments in addition to a custom rudder stop - basically
complete steering system redesign.

I'm focusing on option A now, which was to have a machine shop make an
"offset tiller arm" or "drop" tiller arm. I discovered the term "offset
tiller arm" when I found Buck Algonquin makes them (but not in the right
size for our boat, and they're bronze castings so they can't do a custom
one - they do 1000+ unit production runs).
https://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/89112-89000-series-offset-tiller-arm

But having a machine shop make my own offset tiller arm seems doable, as
long as I can find a machine shop willing to do it.

-Patrick

-- Forwarded message --
> From: Dreuge 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 17:24:39 -0500
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting
> Patrick,
>
> As you can imagine, I thought about this a bit, and while I choose to use
> a radial rudder stop mount for my connections for several reasons.  But
> there are options one may consider which would utilize a traditional
> autopilot tiller arms.  Edson makes tiller arms in both Aluminum and
> Bronze.  To me, it makes no sense to opt for the Aluminum arm as I doubt
> it's structurally as strong as using the radial rudder stop mount.  A
> Bronze arm (or even a custom stainless) is a good choice.
>
> * Edson sells a different radial drive which has a shorter height.
> Replacing an existing with one of these would be costly but it could free
> up shaft space for the tiller arm.  One needs to check the specs for the
> shorter radials and see if that option is feasible.
>
> * Alternatively, one may consider flipping the existing radial drive
> upside down.  It would be a challenging to reinstall and adjust the cables,
> and who knows, it may actually make the reinstall easier.   The rudder stop
> can be installed either on top or below on a radial drive, so in principle
> that can be mounted back on top,  but since the radial plane would be
> higher than existing, one may need to go with smaller steering idler
> sheaves.   While I though about this, I never actually measured for a fit.
>
> * A third option, and one I thought of after the fact, is to have a tiller
> arm custom made so that it bolts onto the radial at the shaft using the
> radial shaft bolts.  One would need slightly longer bolts, but it would be
> very robust.  (inspired by the custom bracket mount for my rudder
> indicator).
>
> Finally, with regards to radial/mount failures, I have heard of one where
> someone drilled holes in the radial for installing a mounting bracket
> rather than using the rudder stop bracket.  The set up failed over time due
> to dissimilar metal corrosion.I think drilling the radial is a huge
> mistake. It makes it weaker and more prone to corrosion.   Edson has
> reported that over time the radial can corrode at the rudder stop due to
> the dissimilar metals. This has been a common cause of rudder stop
> failures. While Edson has redesigned the rudder stop, they contend that

Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

Patrick,

As you can imagine, I thought about this a bit, and while I choose to use a 
radial rudder stop mount for my connections for several reasons.  But there are 
options one may consider which would utilize a traditional autopilot tiller 
arms.  Edson makes tiller arms in both Aluminum and Bronze.  To me, it makes no 
sense to opt for the Aluminum arm as I doubt it's structurally as strong as 
using the radial rudder stop mount.  A Bronze arm (or even a custom stainless) 
is a good choice.

* Edson sells a different radial drive which has a shorter height.  Replacing 
an existing with one of these would be costly but it could free up shaft space 
for the tiller arm.  One needs to check the specs for the shorter radials and 
see if that option is feasible. 

* Alternatively, one may consider flipping the existing radial drive upside 
down.  It would be a challenging to reinstall and adjust the cables, and who 
knows, it may actually make the reinstall easier.   The rudder stop can be 
installed either on top or below on a radial drive, so in principle that can be 
mounted back on top,  but since the radial plane would be higher than existing, 
one may need to go with smaller steering idler sheaves.   While I though about 
this, I never actually measured for a fit.  

* A third option, and one I thought of after the fact, is to have a tiller arm 
custom made so that it bolts onto the radial at the shaft using the radial 
shaft bolts.  One would need slightly longer bolts, but it would be very 
robust.  (inspired by the custom bracket mount for my rudder indicator).   

Finally, with regards to radial/mount failures, I have heard of one where 
someone drilled holes in the radial for installing a mounting bracket rather 
than using the rudder stop bracket.  The set up failed over time due to 
dissimilar metal corrosion.I think drilling the radial is a huge mistake. 
It makes it weaker and more prone to corrosion.   Edson has reported that over 
time the radial can corrode at the rudder stop due to the dissimilar metals. 
This has been a common cause of rudder stop failures. While Edson has 
redesigned the rudder stop, they contend that failure is due to steering system 
neglect and lack of system system inspection.  Yes, we should all inspect more. 
 I would like to add that improper installation likely added to the haste of 
deterioration.   (.i.e. some Tef-Gel and some DMD electrical insulation paper 
goes a long way)   





-
Paul E.
1981 C Landfall 38 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

> On Mar 4, 2019, at 12:00 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:
> 
> Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 07:46:09 -0800
> From: Patrick Davin mailto:jda...@gmail.com>>
> To: Robert Boyer mailto:dainyr...@icloud.com>>
> Cc: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting
>   to quadrant?
> Message-ID:
><mailto:CAHixY6S9=S=fvarfamecsvedda5dngnf9q8vkw1m-kepwwp...@mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> That would be great if my worries are unfounded because it would save a lot
> of work. :)
> But I'm not so sure. Generally I like to defer to the advice of the
> manufacturer - they're the designers, the experts, the engineers, after
> all. Of course, I think Edson is being overly conservative to cover their
> butts. But it is true that losing steering could very well be catastrophic.
> 
> And of the boats that have installed direct to quadrant, I don't know what
> kind of conditions they've been tested in. It's possible they've never
> reached peak thrust.
> 
> Bob do you have any pictures of your autopilot install? I searched your
> blog but I think it's not on there (it's from before the blog).
> 
> -Patrick

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Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting to quadrant?

[svrebeccaleah via CnC-List]

Hi Patrick,I installed a belowdecks autopilot on Pegasus. Contact Kyle as he 
now has Pegasus there in Shilshole. Maybe he'll let you look at the way I 
installed it. Good luckDoug. Doug Mountjoy Sv Rebecca Leah LH39Port Orchard YC 
wa.
 Original message From: Patrick Davin via CnC-List 
 Date: 3/3/19  19:40  (GMT-08:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Patrick Davin  Subject: Stus-List 
Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting to quadrant? I know there was a 
thread about below-decks autopilots on the Landfall 38 where discussion ended 
up on "bolt it to the radial drive, reinforcing the attachment point." ( 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2018-May/200838.html )I'm 
researching this now, with interest in installing a Raymarine EV-200 with type 
1 mechanical linear drive, and I think it *might* be possible to do without 
bolting to the radial drive. Does anyone know if any LF38 has successfully done 
this?  I've already read dreuge's post - 
http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2016/12/below-deck-autopilot.html - which is 
excellent. But he went a different route than I want to go, so it would be 
helpful to see other photos and installation ideas. The reason I want to avoid 
bolting to the radial drive is that Edson has repeatedly advised against it, 
calling it a "likely catastrophic failure" and saying the cast aluminum fixture 
is not designed for those kind of torsional forces, it's designed for pulling 
forces (via the cables). A Type 1 ram has 650 lbs peak thrust and a type 2 has 
1050 lbs. Additionally I have found one account of someone who had their Edson 
radial explode (with autopilot mounted to it) - it took 15 years before this 
happened, but still not a risk that's worth it in my mind. The ideas I'm 
considering for doing this without mounting to the radial are: A) custom tiller 
arm, with a 90 degree bend to clear the radial drive rim. It would clamp to the 
rudder shaft in the 1.9" of available space (1.5" of that is within the bottom 
concave part of the radial drive). Note I have no diesel tank under the 
steering, which makes this easier. I don't have a design for this idea 
though.B) Jefa 270 degree quadrant with integrated tiller arm. 
https://www.jefa.com/steering/products/cable/quadrants/quadrants.htmI'm talking 
to Jefa (part of PYI now) this week. The quadrant with welded on tiller arm has 
less overall height than an Edson radial drive, so it would fit. But I'm not 
sure about positioning of the linear drive unit - it's 27.5" long and the LF38 
stern is quite narrow. Sorry for the long post. The motivation for a 
below-decks autopilot is that the wheel pilot is not strong enough for 
significant wave state (it's only rated for 16.5k lbs displacement, and the 
LF38 is more like 19-20k when loaded for cruising).-Patrick1984 C LF38
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Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting to quadrant?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

That would be great if my worries are unfounded because it would save a lot
of work. :)
But I'm not so sure. Generally I like to defer to the advice of the
manufacturer - they're the designers, the experts, the engineers, after
all. Of course, I think Edson is being overly conservative to cover their
butts. But it is true that losing steering could very well be catastrophic.

And of the boats that have installed direct to quadrant, I don't know what
kind of conditions they've been tested in. It's possible they've never
reached peak thrust.

Bob do you have any pictures of your autopilot install? I searched your
blog but I think it's not on there (it's from before the blog).

-Patrick

>
>
___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting to quadrant?

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

When I was in that business we fabricated plates to spread the load over 
the entire quadrant as opposed to one attachment point.


Joe

Coquina

On 3/4/2019 8:19 AM, Robert Boyer via CnC-List wrote:
I’ve had my autopilot for probably 20+ years with the Type 1 linear 
actuator directly attached to the quadrant with no issues.  The 
quadrant attachment is reinforced with aluminum plates.  We live 
aboard and cruise up and down the ICW and to/from the Bahamas.  I 
think your worries are unfounded.


Bob

Bob Boyer
s/v Rainy Days
C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
(Presently in Charleston SC for the winter)
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com 
email: dainyr...@icloud.com 

On Mar 3, 2019, at 10:40 PM, Patrick Davin via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


I know there was a thread about below-decks autopilots on the 
Landfall 38 where discussion ended up on "bolt it to the radial 
drive, reinforcing the attachment point." ( 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2018-May/200838.html 
)


I'm researching this now, with interest in installing a Raymarine 
EV-200 with type 1 mechanical linear drive, and I think it *might* be 
possible to do without bolting to the radial drive. Does anyone know 
if any LF38 has successfully done this?


I've already read dreuge's post - 
http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2016/12/below-deck-autopilot.html - 
which is excellent. But he went a different route than I want to go, 
so it would be helpful to see other photos and installation ideas.


The reason I want to avoid bolting to the radial drive is that Edson 
has repeatedly advised against it, calling it a "likely catastrophic 
failure" and saying the cast aluminum fixture is not designed for 
those kind of torsional forces, it's designed for pulling forces (via 
the cables). A Type 1 ram has 650 lbs peak thrust and a type 2 has 
1050 lbs. Additionally I have found one account of someone who had 
their Edson radial explode (with autopilot mounted to it) - it took 
15 years before this happened, but still not a risk that's worth it 
in my mind.


The ideas I'm considering for doing this without mounting to the 
radial are:


A) custom tiller arm, with a 90 degree bend to clear the radial drive 
rim. It would clamp to the rudder shaft in the 1.9" of available 
space (1.5" of that is within the bottom concave part of the radial 
drive). Note I have no diesel tank under the steering, which makes 
this easier. I don't have a design for this idea though.


B) Jefa 270 degree quadrant with integrated tiller arm. 
https://www.jefa.com/steering/products/cable/quadrants/quadrants.htm
I'm talking to Jefa (part of PYI now) this week. The quadrant with 
welded on tiller arm has less overall height than an Edson radial 
drive, so it would fit. But I'm not sure about positioning of the 
linear drive unit - it's 27.5" long and the LF38 stern is quite narrow.


Sorry for the long post. The motivation for a below-decks autopilot 
is that the wheel pilot is not strong enough for significant wave 
state (it's only rated for 16.5k lbs displacement, and the LF38 is 
more like 19-20k when loaded for cruising).


-Patrick
1984 C LF38

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Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. 
 Each and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support 
the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray




___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting to quadrant?

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

I’ve had my autopilot for probably 20+ years with the Type 1 linear actuator 
directly attached to the quadrant with no issues.  The quadrant attachment is 
reinforced with aluminum plates.  We live aboard and cruise up and down the ICW 
and to/from the Bahamas.  I think your worries are unfounded.

Bob

Bob Boyer
s/v Rainy Days
C Landfall 38 (Hull # 230)
(Presently in Charleston SC for the winter)
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
email: dainyr...@icloud.com

> On Mar 3, 2019, at 10:40 PM, Patrick Davin via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I know there was a thread about below-decks autopilots on the Landfall 38 
> where discussion ended up on "bolt it to the radial drive, reinforcing the 
> attachment point." ( 
> http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2018-May/200838.html )
> 
> I'm researching this now, with interest in installing a Raymarine EV-200 with 
> type 1 mechanical linear drive, and I think it *might* be possible to do 
> without bolting to the radial drive. Does anyone know if any LF38 has 
> successfully done this?  
> 
> I've already read dreuge's post - 
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2016/12/below-deck-autopilot.html - which 
> is excellent. But he went a different route than I want to go, so it would be 
> helpful to see other photos and installation ideas. 
> 
> The reason I want to avoid bolting to the radial drive is that Edson has 
> repeatedly advised against it, calling it a "likely catastrophic failure" and 
> saying the cast aluminum fixture is not designed for those kind of torsional 
> forces, it's designed for pulling forces (via the cables). A Type 1 ram has 
> 650 lbs peak thrust and a type 2 has 1050 lbs. Additionally I have found one 
> account of someone who had their Edson radial explode (with autopilot mounted 
> to it) - it took 15 years before this happened, but still not a risk that's 
> worth it in my mind. 
> 
> The ideas I'm considering for doing this without mounting to the radial are: 
> 
> A) custom tiller arm, with a 90 degree bend to clear the radial drive rim. It 
> would clamp to the rudder shaft in the 1.9" of available space (1.5" of that 
> is within the bottom concave part of the radial drive). Note I have no diesel 
> tank under the steering, which makes this easier. I don't have a design for 
> this idea though.
> 
> B) Jefa 270 degree quadrant with integrated tiller arm. 
> https://www.jefa.com/steering/products/cable/quadrants/quadrants.htm
> I'm talking to Jefa (part of PYI now) this week. The quadrant with welded on 
> tiller arm has less overall height than an Edson radial drive, so it would 
> fit. But I'm not sure about positioning of the linear drive unit - it's 27.5" 
> long and the LF38 stern is quite narrow. 
> 
> Sorry for the long post. The motivation for a below-decks autopilot is that 
> the wheel pilot is not strong enough for significant wave state (it's only 
> rated for 16.5k lbs displacement, and the LF38 is more like 19-20k when 
> loaded for cruising).
> 
> -Patrick
> 1984 C LF38
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Stus-List Autopilot tiller arm on LF38 *without* bolting to quadrant?

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

I know there was a thread about below-decks autopilots on the Landfall 38
where discussion ended up on "bolt it to the radial drive, reinforcing the
attachment point." (
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2018-May/200838.html )

I'm researching this now, with interest in installing a Raymarine EV-200
with type 1 mechanical linear drive, and I think it *might* be possible to
do without bolting to the radial drive. Does anyone know if any LF38 has
successfully done this?

I've already read dreuge's post -
http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2016/12/below-deck-autopilot.html - which
is excellent. But he went a different route than I want to go, so it would
be helpful to see other photos and installation ideas.

The reason I want to avoid bolting to the radial drive is that Edson has
repeatedly advised against it, calling it a "likely catastrophic failure"
and saying the cast aluminum fixture is not designed for those kind of
torsional forces, it's designed for pulling forces (via the cables). A Type
1 ram has 650 lbs peak thrust and a type 2 has 1050 lbs. Additionally I
have found one account of someone who had their Edson radial explode (with
autopilot mounted to it) - it took 15 years before this happened, but still
not a risk that's worth it in my mind.

The ideas I'm considering for doing this without mounting to the radial
are:

A) custom tiller arm, with a 90 degree bend to clear the radial drive rim.
It would clamp to the rudder shaft in the 1.9" of available space (1.5" of
that is within the bottom concave part of the radial drive). Note I have no
diesel tank under the steering, which makes this easier. I don't have a
design for this idea though.

B) Jefa 270 degree quadrant with integrated tiller arm.
https://www.jefa.com/steering/products/cable/quadrants/quadrants.htm
I'm talking to Jefa (part of PYI now) this week. The quadrant with welded
on tiller arm has less overall height than an Edson radial drive, so it
would fit. But I'm not sure about positioning of the linear drive unit -
it's 27.5" long and the LF38 stern is quite narrow.

Sorry for the long post. The motivation for a below-decks autopilot is that
the wheel pilot is not strong enough for significant wave state (it's only
rated for 16.5k lbs displacement, and the LF38 is more like 19-20k when
loaded for cruising).

-Patrick
1984 C LF38
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray