Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[Wyatt via CnC-List]

Check your grounds! On my 36-1 there was a big ground connection near the
side of the engine compartment (so under the companionway steps) that had
josstled itself loose and caused a ton of weird electrical issues. I'd
recommend spending some time tracing the wires coming from your batteries,
especially on the ground/negative side of things, and look for loose/bad
connections. Good luck!

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 2:34 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Picture helps jog the memory.  That is exactly what the panel I have as
> well.  I remember the needle bouncing a bit when I push the glow plug
> button, but I don’t think it went to 30.  Will have to check.  I am glad
> you reminded me of that article.  One thing I think I can do is run the
> orange power wire  directly to the glow plug switch and see what happens.
> The meters won’t work, but I presume the engine should crank.  Dave
>
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2022, at 1:56 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> My ammeter had numbers just like the picture of the control panel shown in
> that article. The article also shows a wiring diagram.
>
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 1:57 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> It is wired just like the Universal manual diagram except that the jumper
>> for the start button was moved to the glow plug plus side so the two
>> switches are independent and you can start without pushing the glow plug
>> button.  I don’t remember what the ammeter shows when starting but I don’t
>> think my gauge has numbers.  I have not installed the glow plug solenoid he
>> discusses so that is stock.  Dave
>>
>> David Knecht
>> Rear Commodore
>> Thames Yacht Club
>> New London, CT
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 26, 2022, at 12:44 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> How is the ammeter at the control panel wired. Does the charge current
>> from the alternator go all the way from the alternator up to the ammeter on
>> the instrument panel and then back to the batteries?  I always felt that
>> glow plug button was kind of special and I noticed that my ammeter showed
>> 30 or more when I depressed it and for as long as it was depressed.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 1:35 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Here are a few answers to the comments:
>>>
>>> All of this started with replacement of old switches for new ones. Same
>>> wires but each terminal cleaned before attachment.   I find it hard to
>>> believe that cleaned terminals and new switches caused a ground fault
>>> problem at some remote site that was not there before.  Things were
>>> generally working before I did anything. Now nothing works.
>>>
>>> To Dwights suggestion: After reading that Marine How to article years
>>> ago, I replaced all the trailer connectors with heat shrink direct butt
>>> splice connectors for each wire. I also installed a Blue Seas ACR/battery
>>> switch, so the batteries are supposed to be isolated.
>>>
>>> I really can’t understand how this problem is affecting both batteries
>>> when the two circuits are isolated by the ACR.  When I try to start the
>>> engine, everything goes crazy- including both battery volt meter readings.
>>> The meter goes completely blank as if both batteries are dead and then
>>> voltage slowly recovers over time.
>>>
>>> I am also mystified by how I can be measuring over 12V on the plus side
>>> of the key switch and 10V on the other side when it is on.  That is
>>> measured relative to a ground terminal on the tachometer.  There is nothing
>>> there except the switch itself, right?  I am guessing that means something
>>> in terms of the problem, but I don’t know what.
>>> Thanks- Dave
>>>
>>> S/V Aries
>>> 1990 C 34+
>>> New London, CT
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>
>>> On Oct 26, 2022, at 11:48 AM, dwight veinot via CnC-List <
>>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> If you have a Universal M4-30 engine with associated engine control
>>> panel with ammeter this article contains some very important information
>>> for you to know.
>>>  Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade - Marine How To
>>> 
>>> Dwight Veinot
>>> C 35 MKII, *Alianna*
>>> Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
>>> d.ve...@bellaliant.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:10 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
>>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>>
 More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine
 panel ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked
 at the input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key
 switch on, I got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere
 downstream. I am presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not
 understand what that means and hoping someone else does.  The other weird
 thing is that as I 

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Picture helps jog the memory.  That is exactly what the panel I have as well.  
I remember the needle bouncing a bit when I push the glow plug button, but I 
don’t think it went to 30.  Will have to check.  I am glad you reminded me of 
that article.  One thing I think I can do is run the orange power wire  
directly to the glow plug switch and see what happens.  The meters won’t work, 
but I presume the engine should crank.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Oct 26, 2022, at 1:56 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> My ammeter had numbers just like the picture of the control panel shown in 
> that article. The article also shows a wiring diagram. 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 1:57 PM David Knecht via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> It is wired just like the Universal manual diagram except that the jumper for 
> the start button was moved to the glow plug plus side so the two switches are 
> independent and you can start without pushing the glow plug button.  I don’t 
> remember what the ammeter shows when starting but I don’t think my gauge has 
> numbers.  I have not installed the glow plug solenoid he discusses so that is 
> stock.  Dave
> 
> David Knecht
> Rear Commodore
> Thames Yacht Club
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 26, 2022, at 12:44 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> How is the ammeter at the control panel wired. Does the charge current from 
>> the alternator go all the way from the alternator up to the ammeter on the 
>> instrument panel and then back to the batteries?  I always felt that glow 
>> plug button was kind of special and I noticed that my ammeter showed 30 or 
>> more when I depressed it and for as long as it was depressed. 
>> 
>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 1:35 PM David Knecht via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> Here are a few answers to the comments:  
>> 
>> All of this started with replacement of old switches for new ones. Same 
>> wires but each terminal cleaned before attachment.   I find it hard to 
>> believe that cleaned terminals and new switches caused a ground fault 
>> problem at some remote site that was not there before.  Things were 
>> generally working before I did anything. Now nothing works.
>>  
>> To Dwights suggestion: After reading that Marine How to article years ago, I 
>> replaced all the trailer connectors with heat shrink direct butt splice 
>> connectors for each wire. I also installed a Blue Seas ACR/battery switch, 
>> so the batteries are supposed to be isolated.
>> 
>> I really can’t understand how this problem is affecting both batteries when 
>> the two circuits are isolated by the ACR.  When I try to start the engine, 
>> everything goes crazy- including both battery volt meter readings.  The 
>> meter goes completely blank as if both batteries are dead and then voltage 
>> slowly recovers over time.
>> 
>> I am also mystified by how I can be measuring over 12V on the plus side of 
>> the key switch and 10V on the other side when it is on.  That is measured 
>> relative to a ground terminal on the tachometer.  There is nothing there 
>> except the switch itself, right?  I am guessing that means something in 
>> terms of the problem, but I don’t know what.
>> Thanks- Dave
>> 
>> S/V Aries
>> 1990 C 34+
>> New London, CT
>> 
>> 
> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 26, 2022, at 11:48 AM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
>>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> If you have a Universal M4-30 engine with associated engine control panel 
>>> with ammeter this article contains some very important information for you 
>>> to know. 
>>>  Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade - Marine How To 
>>> 
>>> Dwight Veinot
>>> C 35 MKII, Alianna
>>> Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
>>> d.ve...@bellaliant.net 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:10 PM David Knecht via CnC-List 
>>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>>> More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine panel 
>>> ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked at 
>>> the input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key switch 
>>> on, I got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere 
>>> downstream. I am presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not 
>>> understand what that means and hoping someone else does.  The other weird 
>>> thing is that as I have worked on this, there are times when the battery 
>>> meter in the cabin bounces all over the place from 9V to 12V and back and 
>>> then finally settles at 12.9V.  At the same time, the batteries are 
>>> measuring 12.5V.  Something very strange is happening.  Dave
>>> 
>>> S/V Aries
>>> 1990 C 34+
>>> New London, CT
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
 On Oct 25, 2022, at 2:56 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
 

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

My ammeter had numbers just like the picture of the control panel shown in
that article. The article also shows a wiring diagram.

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 1:57 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> It is wired just like the Universal manual diagram except that the jumper
> for the start button was moved to the glow plug plus side so the two
> switches are independent and you can start without pushing the glow plug
> button.  I don’t remember what the ammeter shows when starting but I don’t
> think my gauge has numbers.  I have not installed the glow plug solenoid he
> discusses so that is stock.  Dave
>
> David Knecht
> Rear Commodore
> Thames Yacht Club
> New London, CT
>
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2022, at 12:44 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> How is the ammeter at the control panel wired. Does the charge current
> from the alternator go all the way from the alternator up to the ammeter on
> the instrument panel and then back to the batteries?  I always felt that
> glow plug button was kind of special and I noticed that my ammeter showed
> 30 or more when I depressed it and for as long as it was depressed.
>
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 1:35 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Here are a few answers to the comments:
>>
>> All of this started with replacement of old switches for new ones. Same
>> wires but each terminal cleaned before attachment.   I find it hard to
>> believe that cleaned terminals and new switches caused a ground fault
>> problem at some remote site that was not there before.  Things were
>> generally working before I did anything. Now nothing works.
>>
>> To Dwights suggestion: After reading that Marine How to article years
>> ago, I replaced all the trailer connectors with heat shrink direct butt
>> splice connectors for each wire. I also installed a Blue Seas ACR/battery
>> switch, so the batteries are supposed to be isolated.
>>
>> I really can’t understand how this problem is affecting both batteries
>> when the two circuits are isolated by the ACR.  When I try to start the
>> engine, everything goes crazy- including both battery volt meter readings.
>> The meter goes completely blank as if both batteries are dead and then
>> voltage slowly recovers over time.
>>
>> I am also mystified by how I can be measuring over 12V on the plus side
>> of the key switch and 10V on the other side when it is on.  That is
>> measured relative to a ground terminal on the tachometer.  There is nothing
>> there except the switch itself, right?  I am guessing that means something
>> in terms of the problem, but I don’t know what.
>> Thanks- Dave
>>
>> S/V Aries
>> 1990 C 34+
>> New London, CT
>>
>> 
>>
>
>> On Oct 26, 2022, at 11:48 AM, dwight veinot via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> If you have a Universal M4-30 engine with associated engine control panel
>> with ammeter this article contains some very important information for you
>> to know.
>>  Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade - Marine How To
>> 
>> Dwight Veinot
>> C 35 MKII, *Alianna*
>> Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
>> d.ve...@bellaliant.net
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:10 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>>> More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine
>>> panel ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked
>>> at the input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key
>>> switch on, I got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere
>>> downstream. I am presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not
>>> understand what that means and hoping someone else does.  The other weird
>>> thing is that as I have worked on this, there are times when the battery
>>> meter in the cabin bounces all over the place from 9V to 12V and back and
>>> then finally settles at 12.9V.  At the same time, the batteries are
>>> measuring 12.5V.  Something very strange is happening.  Dave
>>>
>>> S/V Aries
>>> 1990 C 34+
>>> New London, CT
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>
>>> On Oct 25, 2022, at 2:56 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
>>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> HELP!  I am stumped and hoping someone can point me in the right
>>> direction.  Long descrition as best i can recall. Two weeks ago i thought i
>>> would get a head start on a project. My start button has been flakey this
>>> summer with now and then nothing happening when pressed. Decided to replace
>>> key switch, glow plug and start buttons. I installed key and glow but could
>>> not get start out so gave up. Engine started fine after rewiring. Come back
>>> next week and no response to start button. Battery fine. Lots of messing
>>> around but no luck. Come back today and wire in new start button in case
>>> old bad. Recheck wiring and realize key switch is wired backwards (does it
>>> matter? I guess you 

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

It is wired just like the Universal manual diagram except that the jumper for 
the start button was moved to the glow plug plus side so the two switches are 
independent and you can start without pushing the glow plug button.  I don’t 
remember what the ammeter shows when starting but I don’t think my gauge has 
numbers.  I have not installed the glow plug solenoid he discusses so that is 
stock.  Dave

David Knecht
Rear Commodore
Thames Yacht Club
New London, CT



> On Oct 26, 2022, at 12:44 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> How is the ammeter at the control panel wired. Does the charge current from 
> the alternator go all the way from the alternator up to the ammeter on the 
> instrument panel and then back to the batteries?  I always felt that glow 
> plug button was kind of special and I noticed that my ammeter showed 30 or 
> more when I depressed it and for as long as it was depressed. 
> 
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 1:35 PM David Knecht via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> Here are a few answers to the comments:  
> 
> All of this started with replacement of old switches for new ones. Same wires 
> but each terminal cleaned before attachment.   I find it hard to believe that 
> cleaned terminals and new switches caused a ground fault problem at some 
> remote site that was not there before.  Things were generally working before 
> I did anything. Now nothing works.
>  
> To Dwights suggestion: After reading that Marine How to article years ago, I 
> replaced all the trailer connectors with heat shrink direct butt splice 
> connectors for each wire. I also installed a Blue Seas ACR/battery switch, so 
> the batteries are supposed to be isolated.
> 
> I really can’t understand how this problem is affecting both batteries when 
> the two circuits are isolated by the ACR.  When I try to start the engine, 
> everything goes crazy- including both battery volt meter readings.  The meter 
> goes completely blank as if both batteries are dead and then voltage slowly 
> recovers over time.
> 
> I am also mystified by how I can be measuring over 12V on the plus side of 
> the key switch and 10V on the other side when it is on.  That is measured 
> relative to a ground terminal on the tachometer.  There is nothing there 
> except the switch itself, right?  I am guessing that means something in terms 
> of the problem, but I don’t know what.
> Thanks- Dave
> 
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 26, 2022, at 11:48 AM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> If you have a Universal M4-30 engine with associated engine control panel 
>> with ammeter this article contains some very important information for you 
>> to know. 
>>  Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade - Marine How To 
>> 
>> Dwight Veinot
>> C 35 MKII, Alianna
>> Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
>> d.ve...@bellaliant.net 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:10 PM David Knecht via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine panel 
>> ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked at the 
>> input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key switch on, 
>> I got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere downstream. I 
>> am presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not understand what that 
>> means and hoping someone else does.  The other weird thing is that as I have 
>> worked on this, there are times when the battery meter in the cabin bounces 
>> all over the place from 9V to 12V and back and then finally settles at 
>> 12.9V.  At the same time, the batteries are measuring 12.5V.  Something very 
>> strange is happening.  Dave
>> 
>> S/V Aries
>> 1990 C 34+
>> New London, CT
>> 
>> 
> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 25, 2022, at 2:56 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> HELP!  I am stumped and hoping someone can point me in the right direction. 
>>>  Long descrition as best i can recall. Two weeks ago i thought i would get 
>>> a head start on a project. My start button has been flakey this summer with 
>>> now and then nothing happening when pressed. Decided to replace key switch, 
>>> glow plug and start buttons. I installed key and glow but could not get 
>>> start out so gave up. Engine started fine after rewiring. Come back next 
>>> week and no response to start button. Battery fine. Lots of messing around 
>>> but no luck. Come back today and wire in new start button in case old bad. 
>>> Recheck wiring and realize key switch is wired backwards (does it matter? I 
>>> guess you are supplying power to downstream stuff when off?). Did not check 
>>> and misremembered which wire supplied power. Swapped wires on key switch 
>>> and checked meter and 12v on proper side 

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

How is the ammeter at the control panel wired. Does the charge current from
the alternator go all the way from the alternator up to the ammeter on the
instrument panel and then back to the batteries?  I always felt that glow
plug button was kind of special and I noticed that my ammeter showed 30 or
more when I depressed it and for as long as it was depressed.

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 1:35 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Here are a few answers to the comments:
>
> All of this started with replacement of old switches for new ones. Same
> wires but each terminal cleaned before attachment.   I find it hard to
> believe that cleaned terminals and new switches caused a ground fault
> problem at some remote site that was not there before.  Things were
> generally working before I did anything. Now nothing works.
>
> To Dwights suggestion: After reading that Marine How to article years ago,
> I replaced all the trailer connectors with heat shrink direct butt splice
> connectors for each wire. I also installed a Blue Seas ACR/battery switch,
> so the batteries are supposed to be isolated.
>
> I really can’t understand how this problem is affecting both batteries
> when the two circuits are isolated by the ACR.  When I try to start the
> engine, everything goes crazy- including both battery volt meter readings.
> The meter goes completely blank as if both batteries are dead and then
> voltage slowly recovers over time.
>
> I am also mystified by how I can be measuring over 12V on the plus side of
> the key switch and 10V on the other side when it is on.  That is measured
> relative to a ground terminal on the tachometer.  There is nothing there
> except the switch itself, right?  I am guessing that means something in
> terms of the problem, but I don’t know what.
> Thanks- Dave
>
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2022, at 11:48 AM, dwight veinot via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> If you have a Universal M4-30 engine with associated engine control panel
> with ammeter this article contains some very important information for you
> to know.
>  Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade - Marine How To
> 
> Dwight Veinot
> C 35 MKII, *Alianna*
> Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
> d.ve...@bellaliant.net
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:10 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine
>> panel ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked
>> at the input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key
>> switch on, I got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere
>> downstream. I am presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not
>> understand what that means and hoping someone else does.  The other weird
>> thing is that as I have worked on this, there are times when the battery
>> meter in the cabin bounces all over the place from 9V to 12V and back and
>> then finally settles at 12.9V.  At the same time, the batteries are
>> measuring 12.5V.  Something very strange is happening.  Dave
>>
>> S/V Aries
>> 1990 C 34+
>> New London, CT
>>
>> 
>>
>
>> On Oct 25, 2022, at 2:56 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> HELP!  I am stumped and hoping someone can point me in the right
>> direction.  Long descrition as best i can recall. Two weeks ago i thought i
>> would get a head start on a project. My start button has been flakey this
>> summer with now and then nothing happening when pressed. Decided to replace
>> key switch, glow plug and start buttons. I installed key and glow but could
>> not get start out so gave up. Engine started fine after rewiring. Come back
>> next week and no response to start button. Battery fine. Lots of messing
>> around but no luck. Come back today and wire in new start button in case
>> old bad. Recheck wiring and realize key switch is wired backwards (does it
>> matter? I guess you are supplying power to downstream stuff when off?). Did
>> not check and misremembered which wire supplied power. Swapped wires on key
>> switch and checked meter and 12v on proper side (bat).All looks good.  Turn
>> on key switch and fuel pump starts as normal. Push start button and
>> nothing. Now i measure 4v at engine panel instead of 12. Battery meters
>> dead display and measuring 4v at its inputs. But 12v at battery and main
>> power switch. Other devices fine. Over an hour now and panel and battery
>> meter up to 6v so seems to be slowly recovering. What is going on? Did i
>> screw something up when key switch was backwards?  Dave
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
> --
Sent from Gmail Mobile

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Here are a few answers to the comments:  

All of this started with replacement of old switches for new ones. Same wires 
but each terminal cleaned before attachment.   I find it hard to believe that 
cleaned terminals and new switches caused a ground fault problem at some remote 
site that was not there before.  Things were generally working before I did 
anything. Now nothing works.
 
To Dwights suggestion: After reading that Marine How to article years ago, I 
replaced all the trailer connectors with heat shrink direct butt splice 
connectors for each wire. I also installed a Blue Seas ACR/battery switch, so 
the batteries are supposed to be isolated.

I really can’t understand how this problem is affecting both batteries when the 
two circuits are isolated by the ACR.  When I try to start the engine, 
everything goes crazy- including both battery volt meter readings.  The meter 
goes completely blank as if both batteries are dead and then voltage slowly 
recovers over time.

I am also mystified by how I can be measuring over 12V on the plus side of the 
key switch and 10V on the other side when it is on.  That is measured relative 
to a ground terminal on the tachometer.  There is nothing there except the 
switch itself, right?  I am guessing that means something in terms of the 
problem, but I don’t know what.
Thanks- Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Oct 26, 2022, at 11:48 AM, dwight veinot via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> If you have a Universal M4-30 engine with associated engine control panel 
> with ammeter this article contains some very important information for you to 
> know. 
>  Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade - Marine How To 
> 
> Dwight Veinot
> C 35 MKII, Alianna
> Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
> d.ve...@bellaliant.net 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:10 PM David Knecht via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine panel 
> ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked at the 
> input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key switch on, I 
> got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere downstream. I am 
> presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not understand what that means 
> and hoping someone else does.  The other weird thing is that as I have worked 
> on this, there are times when the battery meter in the cabin bounces all over 
> the place from 9V to 12V and back and then finally settles at 12.9V.  At the 
> same time, the batteries are measuring 12.5V.  Something very strange is 
> happening.  Dave
> 
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 25, 2022, at 2:56 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> HELP!  I am stumped and hoping someone can point me in the right direction.  
>> Long descrition as best i can recall. Two weeks ago i thought i would get a 
>> head start on a project. My start button has been flakey this summer with 
>> now and then nothing happening when pressed. Decided to replace key switch, 
>> glow plug and start buttons. I installed key and glow but could not get 
>> start out so gave up. Engine started fine after rewiring. Come back next 
>> week and no response to start button. Battery fine. Lots of messing around 
>> but no luck. Come back today and wire in new start button in case old bad. 
>> Recheck wiring and realize key switch is wired backwards (does it matter? I 
>> guess you are supplying power to downstream stuff when off?). Did not check 
>> and misremembered which wire supplied power. Swapped wires on key switch and 
>> checked meter and 12v on proper side (bat).All looks good.  Turn on key 
>> switch and fuel pump starts as normal. Push start button and nothing. Now i 
>> measure 4v at engine panel instead of 12. Battery meters dead display and 
>> measuring 4v at its inputs. But 12v at battery and main power switch. Other 
>> devices fine. Over an hour now and panel and battery meter up to 6v so seems 
>> to be slowly recovering. What is going on? Did i screw something up when key 
>> switch was backwards?  Dave
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> 

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

If you have a Universal M4-30 engine with associated engine control panel
with ammeter this article contains some very important information for you
to know.
 Universal Diesel Engine - Wiring Harness Upgrade - Marine How To

Dwight Veinot
C 35 MKII, *Alianna*
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net



On Tue, Oct 25, 2022 at 11:10 PM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine
> panel ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked
> at the input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key
> switch on, I got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere
> downstream. I am presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not
> understand what that means and hoping someone else does.  The other weird
> thing is that as I have worked on this, there are times when the battery
> meter in the cabin bounces all over the place from 9V to 12V and back and
> then finally settles at 12.9V.  At the same time, the batteries are
> measuring 12.5V.  Something very strange is happening.  Dave
>
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> On Oct 25, 2022, at 2:56 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> HELP!  I am stumped and hoping someone can point me in the right
> direction.  Long descrition as best i can recall. Two weeks ago i thought i
> would get a head start on a project. My start button has been flakey this
> summer with now and then nothing happening when pressed. Decided to replace
> key switch, glow plug and start buttons. I installed key and glow but could
> not get start out so gave up. Engine started fine after rewiring. Come back
> next week and no response to start button. Battery fine. Lots of messing
> around but no luck. Come back today and wire in new start button in case
> old bad. Recheck wiring and realize key switch is wired backwards (does it
> matter? I guess you are supplying power to downstream stuff when off?). Did
> not check and misremembered which wire supplied power. Swapped wires on key
> switch and checked meter and 12v on proper side (bat).All looks good.  Turn
> on key switch and fuel pump starts as normal. Push start button and
> nothing. Now i measure 4v at engine panel instead of 12. Battery meters
> dead display and measuring 4v at its inputs. But 12v at battery and main
> power switch. Other devices fine. Over an hour now and panel and battery
> meter up to 6v so seems to be slowly recovering. What is going on? Did i
> screw something up when key switch was backwards?  Dave
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

Yes, good advise.  But measuring a voltage can fool you as it will not show a 
bad high resistance unless there is a load (i.e drawn current).  Without a 
load, a meter could read full battery voltage available at wire ends, but with 
an actual load, the voltage at the wire could be significantly different.   One 
could measure continuity and/or resistance to help find a problem.  

For example, I recently installed a relay powered by the ignition key wire that 
lead to convenient terminal block.  The voltage at the terminal block when the 
key was turned on was 13.2V.  Once connected, the relay would not work as the 
terminal block voltage dropped to 4V.  The “Gremlin” (i.e. problem) was a bad 
4ft wire going from the key to the terminal block.  It was an old wire with 2 
crimped on ring terminals.  I just replace it with a tinned Ancor wire and new 
heat shrink terminals.  Once done, all worked perfectly with no voltage drop at 
the terminal block when the relay in operations.   

-
Paul E.
1981 C Landfall 38 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

> On Oct 25, 2022, at 11:29 PM, Dave S via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Ahhh. The old slant 6 trick….
> 
> Dave - clean all your grounds and clean and tighten all connections.  The 
> bouncing meter is a clue to an intermittent or loose connection.  It can also 
> be a switch oxidizing or otherwise failing.   
> 
>  I assume you are measuring your voltage with reference to a local ground.  
> (Meaning near the switch).  Measure that but also measure with the meter 
> connected to the battery ground (-) terminal directly.   If the values differ 
> you know you have a bad (high resistance) ground.   You can also verify this 
> by measuring the resistance between those points.  
> Mine had little  problems due to loose contacts in switches, poor diy 
> terminations, and a big problem most importantly, due to an oxidized lug 
> connecting the entire control harness to the engine.   It has been 
> bulletproof since I worked on it - cleaning, tightening, protecting with 
> dielectric grease and re-doing the prior owners substandard work.
> I assume you are working with a schematic, stepwise through each circuit. 
> 
> Dave 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 25, 2022, at 9:11 PM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> You need a  better meter that registers volts in tenths or hundreths of 
>> volts.  Sounds like the batteries are OK.  Eventually you will find a bad 
>> connection between the battery and the switch and the starter.  Best to 
>> eliminate those control wire harness quick connects and wire the red lead 
>> straight from the battery to the control panel and then back to the starter. 
>>  
>> 
>> I keep a large screw driver onboard and the rare times the panel button 
>> didn't work, I simply shorted the terminals at the starter, to override the 
>> solenoid and engage the starter.  I've since rewired that red wire and it 
>> starts every time using the panel start button.
>> 
>> Chuck S
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>> On 10/25/2022 10:10 PM David Knecht via CnC-List  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine panel 
>>> ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked at 
>>> the input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key switch 
>>> on, I got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere 
>>> downstream. I am presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not 
>>> understand what that means and hoping someone else does.  The other weird 
>>> thing is that as I have worked on this, there are times when the battery 
>>> meter in the cabin bounces all over the place from 9V to 12V and back and 
>>> then finally settles at 12.9V.  At the same time, the batteries are 
>>> measuring 12.5V.  Something very strange is happening.  Dave
>>> 
>>> S/V Aries
>>> 1990 C 34+
>>> New London, CT
>>> 
> 
>>> 
 On Oct 25, 2022, at 2:56 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
 
 HELP!  I am stumped and hoping someone can point me in the right 
 direction.  Long descrition as best i can recall. Two weeks ago i thought 
 i would get a head start on a project. My start button has been flakey 
 this summer with now and then nothing happening when pressed. Decided to 
 replace key switch, glow plug and start buttons. I installed key and glow 
 but could not get start out so gave up. Engine started fine after 
 rewiring. Come back next week and no response to start button. Battery 
 fine. Lots of messing around but no luck. Come back today and wire in new 
 start button in case old bad. Recheck wiring and realize key switch is 
 wired backwards (does it matter? I guess you are supplying power to 
 downstream stuff when off?). Did not check and misremembered which wire 
 supplied power. Swapped wires on key switch and checked meter and 12v on 

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Ahhh. The old slant 6 trick….Dave - clean all your grounds and clean and tighten all connections.  The bouncing meter is a clue to an intermittent or loose connection.  It can also be a switch oxidizing or otherwise failing.    I assume you are measuring your voltage with reference to a local ground.  (Meaning near the switch).  Measure that but also measure with the meter connected to the battery ground (-) terminal directly.   If the values differ you know you have a bad (high resistance) ground.   You can also verify this by measuring the resistance between those points.  Mine had little  problems due to loose contacts in switches, poor diy terminations, and a big problem most importantly, due to an oxidized lug connecting the entire control harness to the engine.   It has been bulletproof since I worked on it - cleaning, tightening, protecting with dielectric grease and re-doing the prior owners substandard work.I assume you are working with a schematic, stepwise through each circuit. Dave Sent from my iPhoneOn Oct 25, 2022, at 9:11 PM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List  wrote:

  
   
 
  
   You need a  better meter that registers volts in tenths or hundreths of volts.  Sounds like the batteries are OK.  Eventually you will find a bad connection between the battery and the switch and the starter.  Best to eliminate those control wire harness quick connects and wire the red lead straight from the battery to the control panel and then back to the starter.   
   

   
   I keep a large screw driver onboard and the rare times the panel button didn't work, I simply shorted the terminals at the starter, to override the solenoid and engage the starter.  I've since rewired that red wire and it starts every time using the panel start button. 
   

   
   Chuck S 
   

   

   
      

   
   
   
 On 10/25/2022 10:10 PM David Knecht via CnC-List  wrote: 


 


 
   More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine panel ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked at the input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key switch on, I got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere downstream. I am presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not understand what that means and hoping someone else does.  The other weird thing is that as I have worked on this, there are times when the battery meter in the cabin bounces all over the place from 9V to 12V and back and then finally settles at 12.9V.  At the same time, the batteries are measuring 12.5V.  Something very strange is happening.  Dave 

 
 
  
  
S/V Aries 
   
  
1990 C 34+ 
   
  
New London, CT 
   

  
 
 
  
  
  
On Oct 25, 2022, at 2:56 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List  wrote: 
   
   
   
   
 HELP!  I am stumped and hoping someone can point me in the right direction.  Long descrition as best i can recall. Two weeks ago i thought i would get a head start on a project. My start button has been flakey this summer with now and then nothing happening when pressed. Decided to replace key switch, glow plug and start buttons. I installed key and glow but could not get start out so gave up. Engine started fine after rewiring. Come back next week and no response to start button. Battery fine. Lots of messing around but no luck. Come back today and wire in new start button in case old bad. Recheck wiring and realize key switch is wired backwards (does it matter? I guess you are supplying power to downstream stuff when off?). Did not check and misremembered which wire supplied power. Swapped wires on key switch and checked meter and 12v on proper side (bat).All looks good.  Turn on key switch and fuel pump starts as normal. Push start button and nothing. Now i measure 4v at engine panel instead of 12. Battery meters dead display and measuring 4v at its inputs. But 12v at battery and main power switch. Other devices fine. Over an hour now and panel and battery meter up to 6v so seems to be slowly recovering. What is going on? Did i screw something up when key switch was backwards?  Dave 
 
Sent from my iPhone 

   
  
 
 

   
 

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

You need a  better meter that registers volts in tenths or hundreths of volts.  
Sounds like the batteries are OK.  Eventually you will find a bad connection 
between the battery and the switch and the starter.  Best to eliminate those 
control wire harness quick connects and wire the red lead straight from the 
battery to the control panel and then back to the starter.  

I keep a large screw driver onboard and the rare times the panel button didn't 
work, I simply shorted the terminals at the starter, to override the solenoid 
and engage the starter.  I've since rewired that red wire and it starts every 
time using the panel start button.

Chuck S




> On 10/25/2022 10:10 PM David Knecht via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine 
> panel ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked 
> at the input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key 
> switch on, I got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere 
> downstream. I am presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not 
> understand what that means and hoping someone else does.  The other weird 
> thing is that as I have worked on this, there are times when the battery 
> meter in the cabin bounces all over the place from 9V to 12V and back and 
> then finally settles at 12.9V.  At the same time, the batteries are measuring 
> 12.5V.  Something very strange is happening.  Dave
> 
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 
> > > On Oct 25, 2022, at 2:56 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote:
> > 
> > HELP!  I am stumped and hoping someone can point me in the right 
> > direction.  Long descrition as best i can recall. Two weeks ago i thought i 
> > would get a head start on a project. My start button has been flakey this 
> > summer with now and then nothing happening when pressed. Decided to replace 
> > key switch, glow plug and start buttons. I installed key and glow but could 
> > not get start out so gave up. Engine started fine after rewiring. Come back 
> > next week and no response to start button. Battery fine. Lots of messing 
> > around but no luck. Come back today and wire in new start button in case 
> > old bad. Recheck wiring and realize key switch is wired backwards (does it 
> > matter? I guess you are supplying power to downstream stuff when off?). Did 
> > not check and misremembered which wire supplied power. Swapped wires on key 
> > switch and checked meter and 12v on proper side (bat).All looks good.  Turn 
> > on key switch and fuel pump starts as normal. Push start button and 
> > nothing. Now i measure 4v 
 at engine panel instead of 12. Battery meters dead display and measuring 4v at 
its inputs. But 12v at battery and main power switch. Other devices fine. Over 
an hour now and panel and battery meter up to 6v so seems to be slowly 
recovering. What is going on? Did i screw something up when key switch was 
backwards?  Dave
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > 
> > > 
> 

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[Carl Freeman via CnC-List]

 Hi Dave, what brand engine is it? We will assume you have the key switch 
right. Sounds like a bad connection of some sort, since your starter has been 
giving you issues I would check there first. Many engines receive all of their 
power at the main starter terminal. A poor connection there or at the battery 
could be causing all of your problems.
Pictures help.
Good luck, Carl

On Tuesday, October 25, 2022 at 02:57:44 PM EDT, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 wrote:  
 
 HELP!  I am stumped and hoping someone can point me in the right direction.  
Long descrition as best i can recall. Two weeks ago i thought i would get a 
head start on a project. My start button has been flakey this summer with now 
and then nothing happening when pressed. Decided to replace key switch, glow 
plug and start buttons. I installed key and glow but could not get start out so 
gave up. Engine started fine after rewiring. Come back next week and no 
response to start button. Battery fine. Lots of messing around but no luck. 
Come back today and wire in new start button in case old bad. Recheck wiring 
and realize key switch is wired backwards (does it matter? I guess you are 
supplying power to downstream stuff when off?). Did not check and misremembered 
which wire supplied power. Swapped wires on key switch and checked meter and 
12v on proper side (bat).All looks good.  Turn on key switch and fuel pump 
starts as normal. Push start button and nothing. Now i measure 4v at engine 
panel instead of 12. Battery meters dead display and measuring 4v at its 
inputs. But 12v at battery and main power switch. Other devices fine. Over an 
hour now and panel and battery meter up to 6v so seems to be slowly recovering. 
What is going on? Did i screw something up when key switch was backwards?  Dave

Sent from my iPhone  

Stus-List Re: Start panel mystery

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

More diagnosis- I found that when I checked the voltage at the engine panel 
ammeter (where power comes to the panel), it was 12V.  When I checked at the 
input side of the key switch it was 12 V.  When I turned the key switch on, I 
got 10V on the other pole of the key switch and everywhere downstream. I am 
presuming it should be 12V on both sides. I do not understand what that means 
and hoping someone else does.  The other weird thing is that as I have worked 
on this, there are times when the battery meter in the cabin bounces all over 
the place from 9V to 12V and back and then finally settles at 12.9V.  At the 
same time, the batteries are measuring 12.5V.  Something very strange is 
happening.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Oct 25, 2022, at 2:56 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> HELP!  I am stumped and hoping someone can point me in the right direction.  
> Long descrition as best i can recall. Two weeks ago i thought i would get a 
> head start on a project. My start button has been flakey this summer with now 
> and then nothing happening when pressed. Decided to replace key switch, glow 
> plug and start buttons. I installed key and glow but could not get start out 
> so gave up. Engine started fine after rewiring. Come back next week and no 
> response to start button. Battery fine. Lots of messing around but no luck. 
> Come back today and wire in new start button in case old bad. Recheck wiring 
> and realize key switch is wired backwards (does it matter? I guess you are 
> supplying power to downstream stuff when off?). Did not check and 
> misremembered which wire supplied power. Swapped wires on key switch and 
> checked meter and 12v on proper side (bat).All looks good.  Turn on key 
> switch and fuel pump starts as normal. Push start button and nothing. Now i 
> measure 4v at engine panel instead of 12. Battery meters dead display and 
> measuring 4v at its inputs. But 12v at battery and main power switch. Other 
> devices fine. Over an hour now and panel and battery meter up to 6v so seems 
> to be slowly recovering. What is going on? Did i screw something up when key 
> switch was backwards?  Dave
> 
> Sent from my iPhone