Re: FOP problems with Unix

2003-06-18 Thread J.Pietschmann
Carmona Perez, David wrote: But I wonder why some files are processed ok and others don't, or why can I do it from the command line. Those without SVG (inline or external images) should be ok. J.Pietschmann - To unsubscribe, e-ma

RE: FOP problems with Unix

2003-06-18 Thread Anoop Aryal
On Wed, 2003-06-18 at 11:00, Carmona Perez, David wrote: > Thanks, > > Maybe this is the cause, as my Unix system has no X windows. > > But I wonder why some files are processed ok and others don't, or why can I do it > from the command line. > i'm not sure if you're running into the same prob

RE: FOP problems with Unix

2003-06-18 Thread Carmona Perez, David
18 de junio de 2003 17:40 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: FOP problems with Unix I've had this problem many times: you need an X windows display (the DISPLAY environment variable) set to a viable display (like localhost:0.0) first OR use the headless Java stuff in JDK 1.4 (see the Coco

RE: FOP problems with Unix

2003-06-18 Thread Carmona Perez, David
I forgot to mention, that the one big difference between Unix and Windows, is that for Windows I use Java 1.4.1 (because it has hot code replacement) and in SCO Unix Java 1.3.1_06. Another difference I have found, is that I receive FOP logging activity under Windows (log categories sitemap.seri

Re: FOP problems with Unix

2003-06-18 Thread John R. Callahan
I've had this problem many times: you need an X windows display (the DISPLAY environment variable) set to a viable display (like localhost:0.0) first OR use the headless Java stuff in JDK 1.4 (see the Cocoon install notes or Wiki). -- jack John R. Callahan, Ph.D. CTO [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sphere Soft

Re: FOP Serializer configuration

2003-06-13 Thread Joerg Heinicke
My system is working as expected again after fixing the font files. They got broken during check-in into the CVS. Joerg Joerg Heinicke wrote: *grr* Be sure, every problem you have I have too :-( I thought I had it working yesterday, but the error message was "no protocol: fonts/" and it return

Re: FOP Serializer configuration

2003-06-13 Thread Joerg Heinicke
: Joerg Heinicke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviado el: viernes, 13 de junio de 2003 10:08 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: FOP Serializer configuration You can reach the same without an extra XSP, therefore the context:// protocol exists. It's the way I had it: context://user-config.xml B

RE: FOP Serializer configuration

2003-06-13 Thread Carmona Perez, David
ginal- De: Joerg Heinicke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviado el: viernes, 13 de junio de 2003 10:08 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: FOP Serializer configuration You can reach the same without an extra XSP, therefore the context:// protocol exists. It's the way I had it: context://user-config.

RE: FOP Serializer configuration

2003-06-13 Thread Carmona Perez, David
Thanks Joerg, Your solution is much simpler and works!! David -Mensaje original- De: Joerg Heinicke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviado el: viernes, 13 de junio de 2003 10:08 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: FOP Serializer configuration You can reach the same without an

Re: FOP Serializer configuration

2003-06-13 Thread Joerg Heinicke
t doesn't work. David -Mensaje original- De: Joerg Heinicke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Enviado el: jueves, 12 de junio de 2003 16:55 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: FOP Serializer configuration Shortly after writing this, I had to realize that the servlet context can be jndi:/l

RE: FOP Serializer configuration

2003-06-13 Thread Carmona Perez, David
o de 2003 16:55 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: FOP Serializer configuration Shortly after writing this, I had to realize that the servlet context can be jndi:/localhost/..., which is not what I want and that has changed between Tomcat 4.0 and 4.1 (both in combination with JBoss 3.x). Changi

Re: FOP Serializer configuration

2003-06-12 Thread Joerg Heinicke
Shortly after writing this, I had to realize that the servlet context can be jndi:/localhost/..., which is not what I want and that has changed between Tomcat 4.0 and 4.1 (both in combination with JBoss 3.x). Changing the to cocoon:/ protocol does not work as you already have experienced. This

Re: FOP Serializer configuration

2003-06-12 Thread Joerg Heinicke
What Cocoon version do you use? I have 2.0.4 and use context://doc/fop/config.xml without any problems. Joerg Carmona Perez, David wrote: Hi all, Alter reading this page: http://cocoon.apache.org/2.0/userdocs/serializers/pdf-serializer.html I've tried to configure the FOPSerializer with a fi

Re: FOP and greek fonts - is it possible?

2003-06-11 Thread Emmanuil Batsis (Manos)
Geia sou Stavro, You might want to check out http://corefonts.sourceforge.net/ and the license that was used at the time (still in the distributable). Cheers, Manos Stavros Kounis wrote: thnx joerg it work (now i have greek in my pdfs) but is it legal to use windows true type fonts to publ

Re: FOP and greek fonts - is it possible?

2003-06-11 Thread Stavros Kounis
thnx joerg it work (now i have greek in my pdfs) but is it legal to use windows true type fonts to publish my work? what other people here do when they need to ebbend fonts? -- stavros On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, Joerg Heinicke wrote: > http://xml.apache.org/fop/fonts.html > http://cocoon.apache.org

Re: FOP and greek fonts - is it possible?

2003-06-11 Thread Joerg Heinicke
http://xml.apache.org/fop/fonts.html http://cocoon.apache.org/2.1/userdocs/serializers/pdf-serializer.html Joerg Stavros Kounis wrote: hi people i try to generate pdf files with greek characters first i have try to edit cocoon's hello world example and add some greek characters ayter the word wo

Re: FOP problems with 2.1m2

2003-06-09 Thread J.Pietschmann
Spectron International, Inc. wrote: I'm having some problems with FOP in Cocoon 2.1m2. I have a pipeline that creates the xsl-fo document and then I convert it to PDF. If I save the xsl-fo and run it directly through FOP it works ok. When run from Cocoon it gives me the following exception: 15:29:1

Re: FOP/HSSFSerializer's and non-english characters

2003-05-29 Thread J.Pietschmann
Yury Mikhienko wrote: > src="org.apache.cocoon.serialization.HSSFSerializer" > mime-type="application/vnd.ms-excel"> KOI8-R XLS is a binary format which *may* use Unicode. I don't think is of any use here, and asking for KOI8 encoding is definitely pointless.

Re: FOP/HSSFSerializer's and non-english characters

2003-05-29 Thread J.Pietschmann
Yury Mikhienko wrote: Ok, the PDF serializer works properly (but with .ttf fonts only), PFM fonts should work too, as well many OpenType fonts (OpenType extends TrueType). J.Pietschmann - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: FOP/HSSFSerializer's and non-english characters

2003-05-27 Thread Yury Mikhienko
On Tue, 27 May 2003 11:44:48 +0400 Yury Mikhienko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 26 May 2003 21:35:18 +0200 > "J.Pietschmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Yury Mikhienko wrote: > > > Cocoon's FOP/HSSFSerializer still does not support non-english characters, > > > can I solve this prob

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-12 Thread J.Pietschmann
Joerg Heinicke wrote: Hmm, maybe because we use JBoss + Tomcat + Cocoon. Do you know what changed between Fop 0.20.3 and 0.20.4, that prevents my old stuff from working? Or is it deep Fop interna? There were two changes: the switch from using Xerces native to JAXP for creating the XML parser for

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-12 Thread Vadim Gritsenko
Joerg Heinicke wrote: Why must it be absolute paths now? In Cocoon 2.0.3 with Fop 0.20.3 the relative paths worked without any problems. But no longer in Cocoon 2.0.4 with Fop 0.20.4? Not that it *must*... Yes it should work with relative path. But these paths will be relative to the current

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-12 Thread Joerg Heinicke
Why must it be absolute paths now? In Cocoon 2.0.3 with Fop 0.20.3 the relative paths worked without any problems. But no longer in Cocoon 2.0.4 with Fop 0.20.4? Not that it *must*... Yes it should work with relative path. But these paths will be relative to the current working directory of J

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-12 Thread Vadim Gritsenko
Joerg Heinicke wrote: Hello Vadim, Vadim Gritsenko wrote: > Frank made a mistake... New configuration syntax which supports Cocoon > protocols looks like: > > context://webapps/ROOT/doc/fop/config.xml > > Old configuration (with src attribute) does not support protocols, works > only with file n

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-12 Thread Joerg Heinicke
But I got excalibur source resolving to work in *a* way with Cocoon 2.1 or better said with excalibur-sourceresolve-20030130.jar. I don't know how good or bad it is. Interests? Carsten already did it today morning. Joerg -- System Development VIRBUS AG Fon +49(0)341-979-7419 Fax +49(0)341-97

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-12 Thread Joerg Heinicke
Hello Vadim, Vadim Gritsenko wrote: > Frank made a mistake... New configuration syntax which supports Cocoon > protocols looks like: > > context://webapps/ROOT/doc/fop/config.xml > > Old configuration (with src attribute) does not support protocols, works > only with file name (see FOPSerializer.j

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-11 Thread Joerg Heinicke
Is there any reason, why the src-attribute is not used in the new implementation? Backwards compatibility could not be the reason, because as you can see for my example, it only breaks the working without any claiming on the changed configuration. And if it is the general configuration scheme (

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-11 Thread Vadim Gritsenko
Joerg Heinicke wrote: Vadim, can you please add the changed configuration of pdf serializer to the documentation? There is only the src-attribute mentioned. Not only documentation is outdated... Javadoc is missing too! Care to provide a patch? ;-) Vadim ---

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-11 Thread Joerg Heinicke
Hello Vadim, Frank made a mistake... New configuration syntax which supports Cocoon protocols looks like: context://webapps/ROOT/doc/fop/config.xml Old configuration (with src attribute) does not support protocols, works only with file name (see FOPSerializer.java). Ah, thanks. So at least Coc

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-11 Thread Vadim Gritsenko
Joerg Heinicke wrote: Hello Frank, sorry, but this doesn't work in both Cocoon versions. I tested it some time ago with Cocoon 2.0.3 and now with with 2.0.4: Frank made a mistake... New configuration syntax which supports Cocoon protocols looks like: context://webapps/ROOT/doc/fop/config.xml

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-11 Thread Joerg Heinicke
Hello Frank, sorry, but this doesn't work in both Cocoon versions. I tested it some time ago with Cocoon 2.0.3 and now with with 2.0.4: 2003-03-11 18:26:33,236 INFO [org.jboss.web.localhost.Engine] DEBUG (2003-03-11) 18:26.33:210 [manager ] (/conweb/stream.secure.pdf) Thread-7/ExcaliburComp

Re: FOP, inline SVG, fonts

2003-03-11 Thread Frank Taffelt
> src="org.apache.cocoon.serialization.FOPSerializer"> > > you should try . On the other side the problem can be bug in batik which occurs as a NPE. When using internal url targets in your fo:instream-foreign-object this problem is present. This bug is fixed in current batik version 1.5 bet

Re: FOP in cocoon

2002-10-22 Thread J.Pietschmann
Przybilla, Frank wrote: But that was not the case for the infinite loop in cocoon. Now I have the following debug message: 2002-10-22 11:44:11 DEBUG (2002-10-22) 11:44.11:762 [fop ] (/cocoon/JAVA.Report_Screen_PDF) HttpProcessor[9080][3]/MessageHandler: area contents overflows area (thous

Re: FOP in cocoon

2002-10-20 Thread J.Pietschmann
Przybilla, Frank wrote: The problems is that the column values don't fit into the specified columns. So fop has to hyphenate the text or produce breaks respectively. This is working for small documents. For bigger documents fop is not coming to an end and seems to hang producing permanently the

Re: FOP In Latest Cocoon Releases

2002-09-30 Thread J.Pietschmann
Przybilla, Frank wrote: > P.S: I eliminate the error with serialVersionUID. But now there is the > follwing error message when I run fop built from fop-0_20_2-maintain: > > [ERROR] Error building hyphenation tree for language de > java.lang.ClassCastException: cannot assign instance of java.util

Re: fop and c2.1

2002-09-04 Thread J.Pietschmann
Barbara Post wrote: > I have fop-0.20.4.jar and fop-block.jar in my WEB-INF/lib (c2.1). The xsl:fo > stylesheet I created with fop 0.20rc4 (c2.0.3) doesn't work now. My xsl:fo > stylesheet is incorrect... > > What are the changes between the 2 versions regarding fop ? Thanks. I don't remember us

Re: FOP again.. And html

2002-08-30 Thread Tim Cavanagh
Jeff, Yup they are part of the tree - - Excellent! Thanks for the help that¹s easy to fix. Sometimes I cant see the trees for the forest =) Regards Tim On 30/8/02 3:44 PM, "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 10:23:31AM +0930, Tim Cavanagh wrote: >> Hi, >> >>

Re: FOP again.. And html

2002-08-29 Thread Jeff Turner
On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 10:23:31AM +0930, Tim Cavanagh wrote: > Hi, > > Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this question.. > > I am using fop to serialize pdf from xml docs. > > Is it possible to substitute or remove html tags that are mixed in with > plain text within an XML element. The

Re: Fop and extensions ... sorry

2002-08-29 Thread Tim Cavanagh
Hi Koen, Thanks that is a great solution and works well. But how can I use this to remove the request params? Don¹t hey have to be explicit cause one is serializing with fop and the other is just the default? Cheers Tim On 29/8/02 8:19 PM, "Koen Pellegrims" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Simpl

Re: Fop and extensions ... sorry

2002-08-29 Thread Tim Cavanagh
Hi Koen, Thanks that is a great solution and works well. But how can I use this to remove the request params? Don¹t hey have to be explicit cause one is serializing with fop and the other is just the default? Cheers Tim On 29/8/02 8:19 PM, "Koen Pellegrims" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Simpl

RE: Fop and extensions ... sorry

2002-08-29 Thread Koen Pellegrims
Simple solution: you could match on any extension, so the browser can ask for "display_Works/file.pdf?style=green" You could use this mapping to remove the 'pdf' request parameter as well. Koen > -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > Van: Tim Cavanagh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Verzonden: don

Re: FOP-0.20.3

2002-08-12 Thread J.Pietschmann
Wolf-Dieter Grabner wrote: > I'm currently trying to produce some PDFs with fop-0.20.3. Everything - > SVG's, too - works fine when using fop as a standalone application. When > accessing the same file within Cocoon 2.0.3 / Tomcat 4.0.4, the PDF > output stops at the point where the first SVG occu

Re: fop

2002-08-02 Thread Barbara Post
OTECTED]> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:08 PM Subject: Re: fop > The only way I could get images to work through cocoon was to provide an > absolute file system path to the image using the file:// protocol. > I used a sitemap parameter to pass the path into my stylesheet so that >

Re: fop

2002-08-02 Thread Wolle
hi! which parameter did you use in the sitemap. can you show a example? bye wolfgang weigel *The only way I could get images to work through cocoon was to provide an *absolute file system path to the image using the file:// protocol. *I used a sitemap parameter to pass the path into my style

Re: fop

2002-08-02 Thread Andrew Timberlake
The only way I could get images to work through cocoon was to provide an absolute file system path to the image using the file:// protocol. I used a sitemap parameter to pass the path into my stylesheet so that it was still configurable on different machines. Andrew On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 12:01,

Re: fop

2002-08-02 Thread Wolle
On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Barbara Post wrote: *image path issue ? absolute, relative ? here is some code from the xml-file: here is some code from the xsl-file: the pictures are in the same directory as the xsl/xml file. i also tried: , bye ww * *Babs *- Original Message -

Re: fop

2002-08-02 Thread Barbara Post
image path issue ? absolute, relative ? Babs - Original Message - From: Wolle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 11:48 AM Subject: fop > hi! > > I made a xsl-file to generate from a xml file a pdf. this works fine as > long as i use fop standalone

RE: FOP performance

2002-07-09 Thread Berin Loritsch
> From: Matthew Langham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Hi, > > It takes 8.5 seconds to generate the PDF file - which is only > 1 page! Quite complex though with lots of tables etc - but no > graphics. The system is a 650 Mhz with 256 MB RAM. Our > customer thinks that this is too slow - and

Re: FOP performance

2002-07-09 Thread Eric Dalquist
I haven't used FOP with cocoon yet but I have with Oracle's XSQL server pages. FOP is a very useful package but it is slow ESPECIALLY with tables. I haven't looked to heavily into the status of the project for about a year now but performance was a big issue with the dev team but changes weren't h

RE: FOP serializer is 4-5 times slower in C2.0.3 than from command line

2002-06-15 Thread Mark Arnold
-0100 -Original Message- From: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 5:15 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: FOP serializer is 4-5 times slower in C2.0.3 than from command line > -Original Message- > From: Mark Arnold [mailto:[EMAIL PROTE

RE: FOP serializer is 4-5 times slower in C2.0.3 than from command line

2002-06-14 Thread Argyn Kuketayev
> -Original Message- > From: Mark Arnold [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 7:22 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: FOP serializer is 4-5 times slower in C2.0.3 than from > command line > > > You call Cocoon as a servlet using C

RE: FOP serializer is 4-5 times slower in C2.0.3 than from command line

2002-06-14 Thread Mark Arnold
You call Cocoon as a servlet using CocoonServlet, right? If so, try to write your own little FOP/PDF servlet that calls the FOP library rather than the cocoon one. Curious about what kind of performance you get then... MARK -Original Message- From: Argyn Kuketayev [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECT

RE: FOP serializer is 4-5 times slower in C2.0.3 than from command li ne

2002-06-14 Thread Argyn Kuketayev
configuration of my workstation is Win2k Pro, WLS6.1 SP2, command line is .\bin\java -classic -ms512m -mx1024m ... Dual Pentium 1.4Ghz, 2GB Ram - Please check that your question has not already been answered in the FAQ before

Re: FOP debug message meaning

2002-04-09 Thread John Austin
On Tuesday 09 April 2002 15:04, you wrote: > When running FOP without turning off the debug information written to > the standard out, text such as this is printed when FOP finishes > rendering a PDF page: > > Parsing of document complete, stopping renderer > Initial heap size: 111343Kb > Current

Re: FOP strange rendering.

2002-03-06 Thread Olivier Rossel
O'Flaherty, Colm wrote: >It looks like the foreground colour is overlaying the background border, for >what that's worth. > >If you remove the foreground colour, does it work?? > I use the background-color="lightgrey" on the . If I remove the attribute, the borders displays correctly. Should I u

RE: FOP strange rendering.

2002-03-06 Thread O'Flaherty, Colm
It looks like the foreground colour is overlaying the background border, for what that's worth. If you remove the foreground colour, does it work?? -Original Message- From: Olivier Rossel [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 06 March 2002 12:12 To: [EMAI

Re: Fop exception

2001-10-30 Thread Gritsenko
From: "Joop van Duin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:00 AM Subject: Re: Fop exception > Thanks for your 'advice' > > I thought that using example files from O'Reilly would work but obviously > not all of them

Re: Fop exception

2001-10-30 Thread Joop van Duin
Thanks for your 'advice' I thought that using example files from O'Reilly would work but obviously not all of them work. >From: "Gritsenko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: Fop exception >

Re: Fop exception

2001-10-29 Thread Gritsenko
that means it't time to read FO:XSL spec or docs or books. - Original Message - From: "Joop van Duin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 1:29 PM Subject: Help: Fop exception > Hello > > I'm using Apache 1.3.22, JServ 1.1.2, Cocoon 1.8.1 > > I get

RE: FOP, optimized PDF

2001-07-20 Thread Darrel Riekhof
The fop-dev list has put this on their to-do list. Darrel -Original Message- From: giacomo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 10:16 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Re: FOP, optimized PDF You need to ask on the fop mailing list/project but feed

Re: FOP, optimized PDF

2001-07-18 Thread giacomo
On Wed, 18 Jul 2001, Darrel Riekhof wrote: > We are thinking about using FOP to produce large PDF reports that will be > served (possibly through cocoon) to web clients. However, the PDF files > that FOP produces are not optimized. So, the reader client will have to > download the entire PDF fi

RE: FOP border question

2001-07-06 Thread Drasko Kokic
quot;/> > > > Darrel > > -Original Message- > From: Drasko Kokic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 3:11 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: FOP border question > > > I have tried it right now and even thought it does > not

RE: FOP border question

2001-07-06 Thread Darrel Riekhof
I got it working with this line for the 3rd col in my table: Darrel -Original Message- From: Drasko Kokic [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 3:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: FOP border question I have tried it right now and even thought

Re: FOP border question

2001-07-06 Thread Drasko Kokic
I have tried it right now and even thought it does not generate any warnings/errors in the log file ... it still leave the PDF without any table borders :-( Thanks for your help Drasko --- Lajos Moczar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just add "border-width" and "border-color" > attributes to your

Re: FOP border question

2001-07-06 Thread Lajos Moczar
Just add "border-width" and "border-color" attributes to your fo:table-cell, fo:table or fo:table-row elements. That should do it. Regards, Lajos Moczar galatea.com Darrel Riekhof wrote: > Is there a FOP mailing list? > > I have a table with 3 cols and several rows. I want a border around

Re: FOP Tables

2001-07-05 Thread Gritsenko
zvon.org plus links on jakarta fop site I've done real life fo docs with tables, headers, footers, pagination, flowing and anchored frames, it's very challenging indeed. welcome to the club of fop climbers. yeah, yeah it's not cocoon-related, sorry, list members. viktor - Original Messa

Re: FOP Tables

2001-07-05 Thread Lajos Moczar
I found the following extremely helpful when I set up my first XSL:FO using tables: http://www.ibiblio.org/xml/books/bible/updates/15.html. Hope it helps ... Lajos Moczar galatea.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Hi, > I am just beginning to get into the whole XML world. I need to create

Re: FOP Tables

2001-07-05 Thread Berin Loritsch
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Hi, > I am just beginning to get into the whole XML world. I need to create > PDF's, but more specifically I need to use tables. I have done some > preliminary research on FOP and tables. There does not seem to be a whole > lot of information on the subject.