I think we are agreeing (?) on the issue of proprietary : in essence, any
code that
you do not write yourself is 'proprietary' in some way - it belongs to
someone.
Uh, no, but it's not worth worrying about...
-
Please check
Peter
Thanks for the comments; I am still not sure I
understand or agree with the "proprietary" code part;
my definition (based around ownership) seemingly disagrees
with yours - we will then obviously disagree about the
implications...
I am perfectly happy at present to stick with XSLT and
Peter
I think we are agreeing (?) on the issue of proprietary : in
essence, any code that you do not write yourself is 'proprietary'
in some way - it belongs to someone. I agree that OS can
whither and you may have a system on hand that is not being
developed or maintained but at least you
-html that should be caching and if its not it may be a
bug.
Geoff
-Original Message-
From: Derek Hohls [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 1:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: proposal: The Newbies Competence Center (XSLT)
Miles
Thanks for the extra
Title: Message
Well, you carefully
(or not?) snipped out my point that, in the
end, the XSPs are converted to
Java
That's irrelevant; you're still writing
proprietary code...
- and at least one of
theCocoon books I read
suggests this as a perfectly vaild way
to start off doing your
Tony Collen wrote:
CC:ing this to cocoon-docs because that's where it should go :)
You're right but the matter is still being discussed on cocoon-users,
and splitting the discussion might make it confusing.
I think it's better to continue the discussion on cocoon-users for now,
and move it
seems as if my round up generqted even more input ;-)
thanks to all of you.
so what do we have now? i reround up here:
1.) there is a strong push towards role based documentation
2.) there is a strong recommendation to use cocoon-wiki
3.) the discussion roles on over the whole documentation set
On Tuesday 28 January 2003 18:48, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
seems as if my round up generqted even more input ;-)
thanks to all of you.
so what do we have now? i reround up here:
1.) there is a strong push towards role based documentation
2.) there is a strong recommendation to use
SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
. . .
I'd recommend to rename this to The Cocoon Competence Center
and start with the beginners section on the cocoon wiki...
+1, I much prefer beginners than newbies.
I think it would be good to post the concept ([1]) on the wiki, as a
kind of charter of this
Hy,
the Cocoon Competence Center is Born ;-)
I have changed the link on the WIki leftMenu
from new to cocoon? into For Beginners and
added the cocoon in 15 minutes: page.
I invented a first set of metadata:
- TARGET-AUDIENCE: beginners
- COCOON-RELEASES: 2.0.3, 2.0.4
- AUTHOR: Hussayn Dabbous
Title: Message
Hmm? Well
isn't that like saying that sitemaps are "proprietary"
Well yes, but there's a big difference
between coding your business logic in a proprietary non-portable solution and
configuringa pipeline. By staying away from XSP I can switch
away from Cocoon to a servlet
I have changed the link on the WIki leftMenu
from new to cocoon? into For Beginners and
added the cocoon in 15 minutes: page.
Cool, thanks!
I invented a first set of metadata:
- TARGET-AUDIENCE: beginners
- COCOON-RELEASES: 2.0.3, 2.0.4
- AUTHOR: Hussayn Dabbous
- AUTHOR-CONTACT: [EMAIL
Derek Hohls wrote:
(... the example below says one has to know how to do caching of XSPs' -
I still do not know how to do this but fortunately no one has yet
complained
about the speed of the generators - to me the issue is optimizing the
speed
of the transformers - anyone tried doing DocBook
Id be happy to write up some stuff on connecting to EJB servers now that I
have actually figured out how to do it.
-- Robert
- Original Message -
From: Niclas Hedhman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: proposal: The Newbies
PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: proposal: The Newbies Competence Center
seems as if my round up generqted even more input ;-)
thanks to all of you.
so what do we have now? i reround up here:
1.) there is a strong push towards role based
Hmm .. where do I find this?
-- Robert
- Original Message -
From: SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: proposal: The Newbies Competence Center
Hy,
the Cocoon Competence Center is Born ;-)
I have
-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 10:41 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: proposal: The Newbies Competence Center
What I would like to see now is a style guide for XML documents that will be
common to all
On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
I don't think that the word newbie is such a stigma. People know when they
are newbies and not. Rarely do people take it offensively unless its an
outside person telling them that they are a newbie. In fact people can take
it tongue in cheek as the
: proposal: "The Newbies
Competence Center"
I think that Miles' outline below reflects a very good way
of organising the primary Cocoon site. I am not sure that
it is completely appropriate for new users (yes, I still
think there is a distinction between a user and a
Robert Simmons wrote:
I don't think that the word newbie is such a stigma.
Yeah, there are n00b and luser for this purpose. :-)
... I will state
that id like the documentation to actually be served by cocoon.
This is something the project has not (yet) under its control.
What I would like
Hy, Robert;
Robert Simmons wrote:
I don't think that the word newbie is such a stigma. People know when they
are newbies and not. Rarely do people take it offensively unless its an
You may be right, that people have been used to the word newbie. What
brought me off from this title were two
Well, you carefully (or not?) snipped out my point that, in the
end, the XSPs are converted to Java - and at least one of the
Cocoon books I read suggests this as a perfectly vaild way
to start off doing your own coding for custom generators.
So... I am not sure what you mean by "loss of
Miles
Thanks for the extra insight. Actually, the XSP and XSLT
issues are separate for me - the XSP is generating
relatively small sets of data, and the XSLT is also not
that complex. However, I have relatively large static XML
files that I am trying to process using the full DocBook
XSLT
Um... or even
Cocoon BootupCamp?! [EMAIL PROTECTED] 28/01/2003
11:44:45 On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote:
I don't think that the word "newbie" is such a stigma. People know when
they are newbies and not. Rarely do people take it offensively unless
its an outside person telling them
CC:ing this to cocoon-docs because that's where it should go :)
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
hy, everyone
It's time to round up i think. I have taken all the
emails from today and some from yesterday dealing with
this theme and extracted all information therein.
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
snip/
o There was an idea to redesign the cocoon documentation entry page
and provide chapters like:
1) First steps
2) User's Manual
3) User's Reference
4) Architecture
5) Developer's Guide
This is good. HOWEVER,
From the ongoing discussion we (the users) stated, that :
* currently the docs do not really separate between
cocoon-users and cocoon-developers and cocoon doesn't
imply an obvious separation.
* the documentation seems to be more developer centric, less
user centric.
* especially the
Tony Collen wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
o There was an idea to redesign the cocoon documentation entry page
and provide chapters like:
1) First steps
2) User's Manual
3) User's Reference
4) Architecture
5) Developer's Guide
This is good.
On Mon, 27 Jan 2003, SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
therefore we started this newbies competence center approach.
i personnaly whish, that eventually the whole cocoon documentation
will be better separated into developers issues and users issues,
where my definition (biased from the
SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
* currently the docs do not really separate between
cocoon-users and cocoon-developers and cocoon doesn't
imply an obvious separation.
On the contrary, on the homepage, there is a User Guide and a Dev
Guide. I don't think that there lacks an obvious
user: *uses*the given infrastructure as is
developer: *creates* his own add ons to given infrastructure
I get troubles when it comes to xsp programming, which clearly
sits between the chairs. But even there i see a bunch of prepacked
ready to use logicsheets ready made for the
Hy Miles;
thank you for the very deep insight to several points here;
i take this all very serious and will keep it in mind. especially
because i consider my self beeing in the middle of step 3 (see below)
now and still have lots to learn about cocoon.
just let me put one thing correct:
the
Hrmm... this gives me an idea, tell me if you follow along:
Cocoon was developed with SoC in mind. You have the content separated
from the
style, and you have the logic of the site separated from the content.
So, instead of trying to define what a user is and what a developer is, we
Thinking about the concept of roles is really the best
conceptual input to the docs i heard so far.
Yes, i have the instant feeling, that your list of
roles is highly significant. That should be taken
into account when going into the newbies documentation ...
thanks alot for this contrib
Tony Collen wrote:
For instance, with a typical installation of Cocoon, we could define the
following roles:
- Content Creator. This person authors XML for the site to be
transformed. This role works when most of the content is static.
However, if a lot of the data is being pulled out of a
consumers. All properties for the cocoon.xconf files and
various other files would be enumerated and so on.
- Original Message -
From: SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: proposal: The Newbies Competence Center
Ideally, all of these roles work together in order to get things done,
but they only have to worry about their specific role.
I have come to believe this is a fairy tale. No individual in a
development group, in my opinion, can *ever* worry about just their
role. They can specialize on
SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
thank you for the very deep insight to several points here;
i take this all very serious and will keep it in mind. especially
because i consider my self beeing in the middle of step 3 (see below)
now and still have lots to learn about cocoon.
I'm still
for the cocoon.xconf
files and various other files would be enumerated and so on.
- Original Message -
From: SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: proposal: The Newbies Competence Center
From the ongoing
Hmm? Well isn't that like saying that sitemaps are
"proprietary"
to Cocoon. XSP, to me, provide a valid and useful function.
They
allow me to develop generators with a *minimal* amount of Java
knowledge (which, sadly, is my situation); as far as possible I
avoid using it (except for simple
I think that Miles' outline below reflects a very good way
of organising the primary Cocoon site. I am not sure that
it is completely appropriate for new users (yes, I still
think there is a distinction between a user and a 'hard core'
developer - see later replies).
The "First Steps" chapter
Hi Hussayn,
Thanks for aggregating the recent discussions, it's a good step forward.
From my viewpoint of trying to use the existing community tools, here
are my thoughts on how the requirements could be implemented.
SAXESS - Hussayn Dabbous wrote:
. . .
The most important requirements are:
Miles makes some important points below:
- We need to say - upfront - where and why Cocoon should *not* be
used
- We need to define a typical skills set for a Cocoon project team (as
well
as define a minimal knowledge set for getting started!)
- We *do* need to split off the 'tips and
Yes - these are what I would call "user stories" (or, at least,
likely user scenarios) - we could add a basic one:
"You are a php/asp/jsp developer (shame!) who doesn't know
XML or XSL and wants to find out where/why this approach might
be used in your web apps"
(Further to this case,some
This is getting periously close to documentation ;-)
Seriously, this is the kind of description that is incredibly
useful to have up front - never mind arguing over who should
have what skills and how they should work together ... that
is a project/company issue and will differ from case-case
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