Jonathan Rochkind writes:
There are trade-offs. I think a lot of that TAG stuff privileges
the theoretically pure over the on the ground practicalities.
They've got a great fantasy in their heads of what the semantic web
_could_ be, and I agree it's theoretically sound and _could_ be;
Alexander Johannesen wrote:
I think you are quite mistaken on this, but before we leap into wheter
the web is suitable for SuDoc I'd rather point out that SuDoc isn't
web friendly in itself, and *that* more than anything stands in the
way of using them with the web.
It stands in the way of
Hiya,
On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 01:10, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote:
It stands in the way of using them in the fully realized sem web vision.
Ok, I'm puzzled. How? As the SemWeb vision is all about first-order
logic over triplets, and the triplets are defined as URIs, if you can
pop
[alexander.johanne...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:27 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB]
registering info: uris?)
Hiya,
Been meaning to jump into this discussion for a while, but I've been
off to an alternative
From: Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu
The difference between URIs and URLs? I don't believe that URL is
something that exists any more in any standard, it's all URIs.
The URL is alive and well.
The W3C definition, http://www.w3.org/TR/uri-clarification/
a URL is a type of URI that
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 23:34, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote:
The difference between URIs and URLs? I don't believe that URL is
something that exists any more in any standard, it's all URIs. Correct me if
I'm wrong.
Sure it exists: URLs are a subset of URIs. URLs are locators as
[alexander.johanne...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 9:48 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB]
registering info: uris?)
On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 23:34, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote:
The difference between URIs
Thanks Ray. By that definition ALL http URIs are URLs, a priori. I read
Alexander as trying to make a different distinction.
Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress wrote:
From: Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu
The difference between URIs and URLs? I don't believe that URL is
something
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Rochkind
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:21 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re:
[CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)
Over in: http://www.w3.org/2001
] resolution and identification (was Re:
[CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)
Over in: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50-2006-08-
17.html
They suggest: URI opacity'Agents making use of URIs SHOULD NOT
attempt to infer properties of the referenced resource.'
I understand why
Of
Jonathan Rochkind
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 10:21 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re:
[CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)
Over in: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/URNsAndRegistries-50-2006-08-
17.html
They suggest: URI opacity
On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 00:20, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote:
Can you show me where this definition of a URL vs. a URI is made in any
RFC or standard-like document?
From http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3986.html ;
1.1.3. URI, URL, and URN
A URI can be further classified as a
: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB]
registering info: uris?)
An account that has a depressing ring of accuracy to it.
Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress writes:
You're right, if there were a web: URI scheme, the world would be a
better place. But it's
, April 01, 2009 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB]
registering info: uris?)
Ray, you are absolutely right. These would be bad identifiers. But
let's say they're all identical (which I think is what you're saying,
right?), then this just strengthens
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:59 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re:
[CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)
We do just
Jonathan Rochkind writes:
Organization need to have a clear understanding of what they are
minting URIs for.
Precisely. And in the real world... they don't always have
that. Neither the minters nor the users of URIs, especially the
users of http URIs, where you can find so many
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Karen Coyle
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:26 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re:
[CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)
This really puzzles me, because I
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Mike Taylor
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 8:41 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re:
[CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)
I have to say I am suspicious
Houghton,Andrew writes:
I have to say I am suspicious of schemes like PURL, which for all
their good points introduce a single point of failure into, well,
everything that uses them. That can't be good. Especially as
it's run by the same compary that also runs the often-unavailable
Houghton,Andrew wrote:
RFC 3986 (URI generic syntax) says that http: is a URI scheme not a
protocol. Just because it says http people make all kinds of
assumptions about type of use, persistence, resolvability, etc.
And RFC 2616 (Hypertext transfer protocol) says:
The HTTP protocol is a
Houghton,Andrew writes:
I have to say I am suspicious of schemes like PURL, which
for all their good points introduce a single point of
failure into, well, everything that uses them. That can't
be good. Especially as it's run by the same compary that
also runs the
Houghton,Andrew wrote:
OK, good, then if you are concerned about the PURL services SPOF, take
the freely available PURL software and created a distributed PURL based
system and put it up for the community. I think several people have
looked at this, but I have not heard of any progress or
Isn't there always a single point of failure if you are expecting to be
able to resolve an http URI via the HTTP protocol?
Whether it's purl.org or not, there's always a single point of failure
on a given http URI that you expect to resolve via HTTP, the entity
operating the web server at the
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Karen Coyle
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 10:15 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re:
[CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)
Houghton,Andrew wrote:
RFC 3986
Karen Coyle writes:
OK, good, then if you are concerned about the PURL services SPOF,
take the freely available PURL software and created a distributed
PURL based system and put it up for the community. I think
several people have looked at this, but I have not heard of any
] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB]
registering info: uris?)
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Karen Coyle
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 2:26 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re:
[CODE4LIB
Message -
From: Houghton,Andrew hough...@oclc.org
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB]
registering info: uris?)
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu
Hi Ray -
At Thu, 2 Apr 2009 13:48:19 -0400,
Ray Denenberg, Library of Congress wrote:
You're right, if there were a web: URI scheme, the world would be a
better place. But it's not, and the world is worse off for it.
Well, the original concept of the ‘web’ was, as I understand it, to
At Thu, 2 Apr 2009 11:34:12 -0400,
Jonathan Rochkind wrote:
[…]
I think too much of this conversation is about people's ideal vision of
how things _could_ work, rather than trying to make things work as best
as we can in the _actual world we live in_, _as well as_ planning for
the future
I keep telling myself I'm going to stop posting on this thread, but ...
Erik Hetzner writes:
Could somebody explain to me the way in which this identifier:
http://suphoa5d.org/phae4ohg
does not work *as an identifier*, absent any way of getting
information about the referent, in a
Erik Hetzner writes:
Could somebody explain to me the way in which this identifier:
http://suphoa5d.org/phae4ohg
does not work *as an identifier*, absent any way of getting
information about the referent, in a way that:
info:doi/10.10.1126/science.298.5598.1569
does work?
A quick
On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 10:44, Mike Taylor m...@indexdata.com wrote:
Going back to someone's point about living in the real
world (sorry, I forget who), the Inconvenient Truth is that 90% of
programs and 99% of users, on seeing an http: URL, will try to treat
it as a link. They don't know any
Mike Taylor wrote:
Going back to someone's point about living in the real
world (sorry, I forget who), the Inconvenient Truth is that 90% of
programs and 99% of users, on seeing an http: URL, will try to treat
it as a link. They don't know any better.
And they can't know any better because
Houghton,Andrew wrote:
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Rochkind
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:08 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB]
registering info: uris?)
Houghton,Andrew wrote
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Jonathan Rochkind rochk...@jhu.edu wrote:
I admit that httprange-14 still confuses me. (I have no idea why it's
called httprange-14 for one thing).
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14
Some background:
From: Houghton,Andrew hough...@oclc.org
The point being that:
urn:doi:*
info:doi:*
provide no advantages over:
http://doi.org/*
I think they do.
I realize this is pretty much a dead-end debate as everyone has dug
themselves into a position and nobody is going to change their mind. It is
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote:
But shouldn't we be able to know the difference between an identifier and a
locator? Isn't that the problem here? That you don't know which it is if it
starts with http://.
But you do if it starts with http://dx.doi.org
I
it by? Or should the server
maintain a list of all possible locations?
--Ray
- Original Message -
From: Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re: [CODE4LIB
Ross Singer wrote:
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote:
But shouldn't we be able to know the difference between an identifier and a
locator? Isn't that the problem here? That you don't know which it is if it
starts with http://.
But you do if it starts
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Karen Coyle
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:06 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification (was Re:
[CODE4LIB] registering info: uris?)
The general convention is that http
Houghton,Andrew wrote:
Organization need to have a clear understanding of what they are minting
URIs for.
Precisely. And in the real world... they don't always have that. Neither
the minters nor the users of URIs, especially the users of http URIs,
where you can find so many potential
My point is that I don't see how they're different in practice.
And one of them actually allowed you to do something from your email client.
-Ross.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Karen Coyle li...@kcoyle.net wrote:
Ross, I don't get your point. My point was about the confusion between two
an info: URI can do, I agree.
Jonathan
Houghton,Andrew wrote:
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Rochkind
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 1:23 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] resolution and identification
Houghton,Andrew wrote
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