[Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Timo Jyrinki]

Hi,

Newest community update now available at
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/2010-09-01 and plain
text version below.

In addition to myself the latest edition was brought to you by:
- Sre
- Leadman
- Toams

( as usual, you can help out with the next edition at
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/Draft_2010-10-01 )

---

Period 2010-08-01 to 2010-08-31

*** Distributions ***

Debian GNU/Linux

Debian is a universal operating system used on many other embedded
devices, and also on home computers. Using Debian on the FreeRunner
gives access to the huge army of software packaged in the Debian
repositories, already compiled for the Neo's arm(v4) processor.
Moreover, one can build one's own source files for programs without
having to learn the OpenEmbedded way. For an existing Debian/Ubuntu
user, choosing Debian for Neo FreeRunner makes phone a very familiar,
trustworthy and flexible place to hack in.

General news:

* The ARM servers sponsored by ARM Ltd. got activated, thus
experimental packages are built for arm now. That means also fso-gsmd
got built for the Freerunner.
* SHR packages have been removed from pkg-fso repository, they all
arrived in Debian unstable, and just in time for Debian 6.0 freeze.

The biggest hurdle for official FreeRunner support in Debian is the
kernel, since basically everything else starts to be in, in one form
or another. There are currently two places with FreeRunner related
kernels in Debian:

* Official kernel support for Neo FreeRunner devices is being
developed by worked in a s3c24xx branch at
http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-fso/kernel.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/s3c24xx
- thanks to Thibaut Girka and Google Summer of Code.
* The legacy 2.6.29rc3 kernel at
http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-fso/linux-2.6-openmoko.git also saw a
slight update in August - this is still included in Debian
installations by default

Codename: 'sid'
Homepage: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner
Image: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian


QtMoko [v26]

Qtmoko is distribution for Openmoko Freerunner phone based on debian
and qtopia. Here is a list of notable changes since previous stable
version (v24):

* Fixed WS (white screen) problem in qmplayer & QX rotation (Gennady Kupava)
* Fixed unresponsive touchscreen after resume (Gennady Kupava)
* Use blue indicator is used for wifi activity (Alex Samorukov)
* Reconnect wifi after resume (Alex Samorukov)
* Updated QtMaze with better graphics and other enhancements
(Anton Olkhovik)
* We use kernel modules for bluetooth
* Many updates and bugfixes to QMplayer
* More reliable GPRS connection (Alex Samorukov)
* Bluethooth updates
* APGS and GPS standby support (Piotr Gabryjeluk)
* Fixed "When locked" power management mode
* Bigger QTerminal (no tabs whith only one session)
* Raptor - GUI for apt package manager
* New nice theme called finximod (Joif)
* Many updates and bugfixes to Arora (Ant+Alex)
* New apps - qweather (Anton Olkhovik) and qneoriod game (Bala)
* PDF support in eyepiece (Alex Samorukov)

For a more complete list of changes and some additional info please
read the announcement mail

Codename: 'v26'
Homepage: http://qtmoko.org
Image: images

*** Applications ***

Application Updates

eStarDict 0.3

Offline dictionary reader made in C with Enlightenment Elementary UI.
Version 0.3 of eStarDict adds support for czech-english dictionary.
You have to remember, that right now it can manage only one dictionary
per instance.

Homepage: http://www.vaudano.eu/wiki/en/estardict
Package: http://www.vaudano.eu/wiki/en/estardictDownload
Tested on: SHR-Unstable,SHR-Testing

*** Community ***

Most important and change making mails on the mailing lists, blogs
etc.. Coolest hacks, screenshots, themes etc..

* TI OMAP3 SoC + 3G replacement board preserving Neo case &
display - discussion about the prospect is heating up:
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-August/062671.html
* WikiReader sales and the future of Openmoko - Martix shares a
truly interesting interview with Sean Moss-Pultz:
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-August/062687.html
* Glamo timing improvements (= more speed without caveats) can be
done also in run time, and also pre-compiled Qi with settings set by
Qi are available:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Smedia_Glamo_3362#Timing_settings

*** Event News ***

* 2010 Autumn German Open Hard&Software Workshop in Munich; will
cover Openmoko, Beagle Board, Arduino, OpenPandora, ...; still in
planing phase, Doodle scheduling link:
http://www.doodle.com/93cu86vm2s69zsxc

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QtMoko Virtual Memory

[Nashvin Gangaram]

Hi

I was just experimenting the other day, trying to configure my Neo
Freerunner with QtMoko v24 to use Virtual Memory.  I created a swap
partition on my MicroSDHC Card, using GParted on PC.  I notice than on
startup, there is something like a "Activating Swap Configuration... failed"
message.  So, I just had a couple of questions:

   - Is it possible for QtMoko to use a swap partition on the SD Card?
   - How can this be done?
   - Does swap cause a significant performance increase with QtMoko?


Kind Regards,
Nashvin
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Re: [Shr-User] [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Jakob]

On 9/1/10, Timo Jyrinki  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Newest community update now available at
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/2010-09-01 and plain
> text version below.
>
> In addition to myself the latest edition was brought to you by:
> - Sre
> - Leadman
> - Toams
>
> ( as usual, you can help out with the next edition at
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/Draft_2010-10-01 )
>
> ---
>
> Period 2010-08-01 to 2010-08-31
>
> *** Distributions ***
>
>   Debian GNU/Linux
>
> Debian is a universal operating system used on many other embedded
> devices, and also on home computers. Using Debian on the FreeRunner
> gives access to the huge army of software packaged in the Debian
> repositories, already compiled for the Neo's arm(v4) processor.
> Moreover, one can build one's own source files for programs without
> having to learn the OpenEmbedded way. For an existing Debian/Ubuntu
> user, choosing Debian for Neo FreeRunner makes phone a very familiar,
> trustworthy and flexible place to hack in.
>
> General news:
>
> * The ARM servers sponsored by ARM Ltd. got activated, thus
> experimental packages are built for arm now. That means also fso-gsmd
> got built for the Freerunner.
> * SHR packages have been removed from pkg-fso repository, they all
> arrived in Debian unstable, and just in time for Debian 6.0 freeze.
>
> The biggest hurdle for official FreeRunner support in Debian is the
> kernel, since basically everything else starts to be in, in one form
> or another. There are currently two places with FreeRunner related
> kernels in Debian:
>
> * Official kernel support for Neo FreeRunner devices is being
> developed by worked in a s3c24xx branch at
> http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-fso/kernel.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/s3c24xx
> - thanks to Thibaut Girka and Google Summer of Code.
> * The legacy 2.6.29rc3 kernel at
> http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-fso/linux-2.6-openmoko.git also saw a
> slight update in August - this is still included in Debian
> installations by default
>
> Codename: 'sid'
> Homepage: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner
> Image: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian
>   
>
>   QtMoko [v26]
>
> Qtmoko is distribution for Openmoko Freerunner phone based on debian
> and qtopia. Here is a list of notable changes since previous stable
> version (v24):
>
> * Fixed WS (white screen) problem in qmplayer & QX rotation (Gennady
> Kupava)
> * Fixed unresponsive touchscreen after resume (Gennady Kupava)
> * Use blue indicator is used for wifi activity (Alex Samorukov)
> * Reconnect wifi after resume (Alex Samorukov)
> * Updated QtMaze with better graphics and other enhancements
> (Anton Olkhovik)
> * We use kernel modules for bluetooth
> * Many updates and bugfixes to QMplayer
> * More reliable GPRS connection (Alex Samorukov)
> * Bluethooth updates
> * APGS and GPS standby support (Piotr Gabryjeluk)
> * Fixed "When locked" power management mode
> * Bigger QTerminal (no tabs whith only one session)
> * Raptor - GUI for apt package manager
> * New nice theme called finximod (Joif)
> * Many updates and bugfixes to Arora (Ant+Alex)
> * New apps - qweather (Anton Olkhovik) and qneoriod game (Bala)
> * PDF support in eyepiece (Alex Samorukov)
>
> For a more complete list of changes and some additional info please
> read the announcement mail
>
> Codename: 'v26'
> Homepage: http://qtmoko.org
> Image: images
>
> *** Applications ***
>
> Application Updates
>
>   eStarDict 0.3
>
> Offline dictionary reader made in C with Enlightenment Elementary UI.
> Version 0.3 of eStarDict adds support for czech-english dictionary.
> You have to remember, that right now it can manage only one dictionary
> per instance.
>
> Homepage: http://www.vaudano.eu/wiki/en/estardict
> Package: http://www.vaudano.eu/wiki/en/estardictDownload
> Tested on: SHR-Unstable,SHR-Testing
>
> *** Community ***
>
> Most important and change making mails on the mailing lists, blogs
> etc.. Coolest hacks, screenshots, themes etc..
>
> * TI OMAP3 SoC + 3G replacement board preserving Neo case &
> display - discussion about the prospect is heating up:
> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-August/062671.html
> * WikiReader sales and the future of Openmoko - Martix shares a
> truly interesting interview with Sean Moss-Pultz:
> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-August/062687.html
> * Glamo timing improvements (= more speed without caveats) can be
> done also in run time, and also pre-compiled Qi with settings set by
> Qi are available:
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Smedia_Glamo_3362#Timing_settings
>
> *** Event News ***
>
> * 2010 Autumn German Open Hard&Software Workshop in Munich; will
> cover Openmoko, Beagle Board, Arduino, OpenPandora, ...; still in
> planing phase, Doodle scheduling link:
> http://www.doodle.com/93cu86vm2s69zsxc
> ___
>

Re: QtMoko Virtual Memory

[Patryk Benderz]

Dnia 2010-09-01, śro o godzinie 10:50 +0200, Nashvin Gangaram pisze:
> Hi
Hi, this question should go to supp...@lists.openmoko.org

> I was just experimenting the other day, trying to configure my Neo
> Freerunner with QtMoko v24 to use Virtual Memory.  I created a swap
> partition on my MicroSDHC Card, using GParted on PC.  I notice than on
> startup, there is something like a "Activating Swap Configuration...
> failed" message.  So, I just had a couple of questions:
>   * Is it possible for QtMoko to use a swap partition on the SD
> Card?
IIRC, yes

>   * How can this be done?
AFAIR, you can set this in /etc/fstab as /dev/mmcblk0p4

>   * Does swap cause a significant performance increase with
> QtMoko?
IMHO, just a little performance gain. If you use logging, set /var/log
to your uSD.

-- 
Patryk "LeadMan" Benderz
Linux Registered User #377521
()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\  www.asciiribbon.org   - against proprietary attachments


Email secured by Check Point

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Re: QtMoko Virtual Memory

[Michele Brocco]

On 9/1/10, Nashvin Gangaram  wrote:
> Hi
>
> I was just experimenting the other day, trying to configure my Neo
> Freerunner with QtMoko v24 to use Virtual Memory.  I created a swap
> partition on my MicroSDHC Card, using GParted on PC.  I notice than on
> startup, there is something like a "Activating Swap Configuration... failed"
> message.  So, I just had a couple of questions:
>
>- Is it possible for QtMoko to use a swap partition on the SD Card?
>- How can this be done?
>- Does swap cause a significant performance increase with QtMoko?
>
Hi,

the message is displayed because the default setting in the /etc/fstab
is probably a swap partition that does not match the partition you
created (edit this file to change the settings in order to match your
partitions). Personally I just needed swap sometimes when installing
with opkg some packages because memory was not enough. In terms of
speed that won't change a lot. So it will just prevent the case that
the system is running out of memory. Personally, I use a swap file
instead of a swap partition on the sd card. Using swap may however
reduce the lifetime of our sd card.

Regards,
Michele

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Re: [Shr-User] [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Sylvain Paré]

thx too!

2010/9/1 Jakob 

> On 9/1/10, Timo Jyrinki  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Newest community update now available at
> > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/2010-09-01 and plain
> > text version below.
> >
> > In addition to myself the latest edition was brought to you by:
> > - Sre
> > - Leadman
> > - Toams
> >
> > ( as usual, you can help out with the next edition at
> > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates/Draft_2010-10-01 )
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Period 2010-08-01 to 2010-08-31
> >
> > *** Distributions ***
> >
> >   Debian GNU/Linux
> >
> > Debian is a universal operating system used on many other embedded
> > devices, and also on home computers. Using Debian on the FreeRunner
> > gives access to the huge army of software packaged in the Debian
> > repositories, already compiled for the Neo's arm(v4) processor.
> > Moreover, one can build one's own source files for programs without
> > having to learn the OpenEmbedded way. For an existing Debian/Ubuntu
> > user, choosing Debian for Neo FreeRunner makes phone a very familiar,
> > trustworthy and flexible place to hack in.
> >
> > General news:
> >
> > * The ARM servers sponsored by ARM Ltd. got activated, thus
> > experimental packages are built for arm now. That means also fso-gsmd
> > got built for the Freerunner.
> > * SHR packages have been removed from pkg-fso repository, they all
> > arrived in Debian unstable, and just in time for Debian 6.0 freeze.
> >
> > The biggest hurdle for official FreeRunner support in Debian is the
> > kernel, since basically everything else starts to be in, in one form
> > or another. There are currently two places with FreeRunner related
> > kernels in Debian:
> >
> > * Official kernel support for Neo FreeRunner devices is being
> > developed by worked in a s3c24xx branch at
> >
> http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-fso/kernel.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/s3c24xx
> > - thanks to Thibaut Girka and Google Summer of Code.
> > * The legacy 2.6.29rc3 kernel at
> > http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-fso/linux-2.6-openmoko.git also saw a
> > slight update in August - this is still included in Debian
> > installations by default
> >
> > Codename: 'sid'
> > Homepage: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianOnFreeRunner
> > Image: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debian
> >
> >
> >   QtMoko [v26]
> >
> > Qtmoko is distribution for Openmoko Freerunner phone based on debian
> > and qtopia. Here is a list of notable changes since previous stable
> > version (v24):
> >
> > * Fixed WS (white screen) problem in qmplayer & QX rotation (Gennady
> > Kupava)
> > * Fixed unresponsive touchscreen after resume (Gennady Kupava)
> > * Use blue indicator is used for wifi activity (Alex Samorukov)
> > * Reconnect wifi after resume (Alex Samorukov)
> > * Updated QtMaze with better graphics and other enhancements
> > (Anton Olkhovik)
> > * We use kernel modules for bluetooth
> > * Many updates and bugfixes to QMplayer
> > * More reliable GPRS connection (Alex Samorukov)
> > * Bluethooth updates
> > * APGS and GPS standby support (Piotr Gabryjeluk)
> > * Fixed "When locked" power management mode
> > * Bigger QTerminal (no tabs whith only one session)
> > * Raptor - GUI for apt package manager
> > * New nice theme called finximod (Joif)
> > * Many updates and bugfixes to Arora (Ant+Alex)
> > * New apps - qweather (Anton Olkhovik) and qneoriod game (Bala)
> > * PDF support in eyepiece (Alex Samorukov)
> >
> > For a more complete list of changes and some additional info please
> > read the announcement mail
> >
> > Codename: 'v26'
> > Homepage: http://qtmoko.org
> > Image: images
> >
> > *** Applications ***
> >
> > Application Updates
> >
> >   eStarDict 0.3
> >
> > Offline dictionary reader made in C with Enlightenment Elementary UI.
> > Version 0.3 of eStarDict adds support for czech-english dictionary.
> > You have to remember, that right now it can manage only one dictionary
> > per instance.
> >
> > Homepage: http://www.vaudano.eu/wiki/en/estardict
> > Package: http://www.vaudano.eu/wiki/en/estardictDownload
> > Tested on: SHR-Unstable,SHR-Testing
> >
> > *** Community ***
> >
> > Most important and change making mails on the mailing lists, blogs
> > etc.. Coolest hacks, screenshots, themes etc..
> >
> > * TI OMAP3 SoC + 3G replacement board preserving Neo case &
> > display - discussion about the prospect is heating up:
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-August/062671.html
> > * WikiReader sales and the future of Openmoko - Martix shares a
> > truly interesting interview with Sean Moss-Pultz:
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2010-August/062687.html
> > * Glamo timing improvements (= more speed without caveats) can be
> > done also in run time, and also pre-compiled Qi with settings set by
> > Qi are available:
> > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Smedia_Glamo_3362#Timing_settings
> >
> > *** Event News ***
> >

Re: QtMoko Virtual Memory

[Gennady Kupava]

В Срд, 01/09/2010 в 10:50 +0200, Nashvin Gangaram пишет:

> trying to configure my Neo Freerunner with QtMoko v24

Update your system to v26 :)

>   * Is it possible for QtMoko to use a swap partition on the SD
> Card?
>   * How can this be done?
As qtmoko is usual debian system, you can enable swap in usual way, for
example by adding appropriate settings to /etc/fstab and dedicating
partition on uSD card.

>   * Does swap cause a significant performance increase with
> QtMoko?
No, i think it may cause significant performance decrease instead. But
this just educated guess and it would be better to do some testing to
prove this.

Gennady


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Re: QtMoko Virtual Memory

[David Garabana Barro]

On Miércoles, 1 de Septiembre de 2010 11:22:45 Gennady Kupava escribió:
> В Срд, 01/09/2010 в 10:50 +0200, Nashvin Gangaram пишет:
 
> >   * Does swap cause a significant performance increase with
> >   
> > QtMoko?
> 
> No, i think it may cause significant performance decrease instead. But
> this just educated guess and it would be better to do some testing to
> prove this.

It's not true for me, and it's a common misunderstanding IMHO. 

For testing, simply try to download tiles at zoom level 11, for the upper 6 
zoom levels in tangoGPS. Better if you make it twice (moving on the map)

Without swap, it will catch all available memory, and FR will get really 
slow, to the limit of appearing to hang, and even sometimes oomkill will 
start killing some random process.
With swap, linux can swap unused pages (other daemon pages, not tangogps ones) 
and tangogps will continue running, and FR will be responsible. You only will 
notice some 1-4 seconds slowdown from time to time, when pages are swapped out

swap is not only for "creating" more memory. If FR starts to massively trashing 
pages to swap, it will really SLOW things a lot, for sure (the same is true for 
your PC)

But it will help *a lot* to have more memory available for running apps.
Think on swap as a place where put unused memory pages, and use real RAM for 
currently used apps or caching files from slow uSD

Swap will *ALLWAYS* help, but will help a lot more on a limited memory device, 
as FR

Here [1] you can read more about what I'm saying.

[1] http://kerneltrap.org/node/3202


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Re: [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Gennady Kupava]

Hi, list, 

Bit info about glamo timing settings. As for some people:

>* Glamo timing improvements (= more speed without caveats) can be
>done also in run time, and also pre-compiled Qi with settings set by
>Qi are available:

is someting new, i want to comment this a bit.

1. I beleive that default timings of 4-4-4 is a bug, which should be
fixed. Where is no reason to keep default timings.

2. Because of (1), it should just be fixed. Proper way to set video and
other memory timings is bootloader. So, bootloader should be fixed once
and what's all.

3. So, I hope nobody of distributors will include settings change in
runtime, as it will be maintaining one more hack and encouraging users
not to use proper solutions.

Keeping this things in mind i didn't publish this way to change settings
in my original mail, publishing only way to check bootloader settings,
not way to change them. Disadvantage is that i didn't allow people to
quick check things, but i just attempted to avoid one more from being
introduced.

Gennady




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Re: [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Maksim 'max_posedon' Melnikau]

Because of FR's NOR bootloader, better to have some hacks in kernel, imho.

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Re: [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

"Maksim 'max_posedon' Melnikau"  writes:
> Because of FR's NOR bootloader, better to have some hacks in kernel, imho.

Some context would help here...


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Re: [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Gennady Kupava]

В Срд, 01/09/2010 в 14:08 +0300, Maksim 'max_posedon' Melnikau пишет:
> Because of FR's NOR bootloader, better to have some hacks in kernel, imho.

FR NOR bootloader should not be used for anything expect flashing. It
has N other unfixed things.



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Re: [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[David Garabana Barro]

On Miércoles, 1 de Septiembre de 2010 12:13:20 Gennady Kupava escribió:
> В Срд, 01/09/2010 в 14:08 +0300, Maksim 'max_posedon' Melnikau пишет:
> > Because of FR's NOR bootloader, better to have some hacks in kernel,
> > imho.
> 
> FR NOR bootloader should not be used for anything expect flashing. It
> has N other unfixed things.

It cannot boot >2M kernel, for example. Not uninportant one :)




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FOSDEM 2011

[Dr. Michael Lauer]

Hi folks,

FOSDEM just released the call for dev-rooms.
(http://www.fosdem.org/2011/)

After our lucky mini-appereance which was
quite well received, I wonder whether anyone
would be interested in organizing
a combined SHR/FSO/ devroom for next year.

I will not have enough time to take the wheel
on this, however I volunteer to do something
(presentation, workshop, whatever) should
we get the opportunity to have such a room.

Cheers,

:M:


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Re: [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

David Garabana Barro  writes:
> It cannot boot >2M kernel, for example. Not uninportant one :)

It can if you send the commands from PC over USB. Shouldn't be a
problem if you boot your phone only once a month :-)


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Re: [Android] Froyo (Android 2.2) on Freerunner????

[Atilla Filiz]

AFAIK Serdar Dere is actively developing Android for FR, so I am sure the
images are real. How (close to being)usable they are, that is to wonder.

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 5:06 PM, David Garabana Barro wrote:

> On Thursday 05 August 2010 16:52:24 Jan Girlich wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, den 05.08.2010, 16:42 +0200 schrieb David Garabana Barro:
> > > http://serdar-dere.net/~serdar/daily/
> > >
> > > Are these images real?
> > >
> > > Are there Android 2.2 images for Freeruner?
> >
> > I doubt these images are of any use (yet). Look at the filesizes.
> > They're just about 7MB, way too small for a real image.
>
> Yes, but first one size is 67 MB.
>
> On the thread Nelson posted minutes ago, you can see they are real, but
> they
> only compile and boot. Not useful by the moment
> :)
>
>
>
>
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Atilla Filiz
Eindhoven University of Technology
Embedded Systems, Master's Programme

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Re: QtMoko Virtual Memory

[Gennady Kupava]

В Срд, 01/09/2010 в 12:38 +0200, David Garabana Barro пишет:
> 
> It's not true for me, and it's a common misunderstanding IMHO. 

This is not misunderstanding, this is just one of questions which can't
have only one answer. For some tasks swap is good, for others - bad. I
have strong (enough for me) arguments too. Yours are strong for you, so
this is just matter of situation.

> 
> For testing, simply try to download tiles at zoom level 11, for the upper 6 
> zoom levels in tangoGPS. Better if you make it twice (moving on the map)
> 
> Without swap, it will catch all available memory, and FR will get really 
> slow, to the limit of appearing to hang, and even sometimes oomkill will 
> start killing some random process.
> With swap, linux can swap unused pages (other daemon pages, not tangogps 
> ones) 
> and tangogps will continue running, and FR will be responsible. You only will 
> notice some 1-4 seconds slowdown from time to time, when pages are swapped out
> 
> swap is not only for "creating" more memory. If FR starts to massively 
> trashing 
> pages to swap, it will really SLOW things a lot, for sure (the same is true 
> for 
> your PC)
> 
> But it will help *a lot* to have more memory available for running apps.
> Think on swap as a place where put unused memory pages, and use real RAM for 
> currently used apps or caching files from slow uSD
> 
> Swap will *ALLWAYS* help, but will help a lot more on a limited memory 
> device, 
> as FR
> 
> Here [1] you can read more about what I'm saying.
> 
> [1] http://kerneltrap.org/node/3202

Thanks for description, now my position:

First of all, i do not use swap on any Linux system i am using with
amount of memory >=512Mb. I even do not use swap on desktop where i have
tmpfs mounted to /tmp.

Having something published on kerneltrap is not meant to be only
possible answer, i can provide an example. Few years ago Linus believed
that moving everything to userspace is good idea and this is way to go.
Now i see everything is included to kernel (devfs vs udev, evdev vs
tslib, kms vs userspace mode switching). But i am still at the point
that every possible thing should be in userspace. I think, both points
of view very extensivly published to mailing lists and both have strong
grounds :)

First, about swap in general. IMO, swap were introduced in absolutely
different context. In 80's memory situation were completely different. 

---
now, real situations.

1. main swap problem is in it's nature. it will push to disk
less-frequently used pages from memory but use 'freed memory'. But for
me it turned out that it is impossible to predict which page is useful
which is not _in future_, and it turns out that freed memory on all
modern systems used to keep relatively useless huge disk cache. it's
question (for me) is _huge_ disk cache is better than _meduim-sized_
disk cache in many situations. note that I found that using tmpfs is
times faster than using such 'buffer' (i tested qtmoko build). having
random process swapped-out also makes system very unpredictive. you may
never know how long some application will start, this annoying for me, i
like low latency.

1a. to apply (1) to FR. imagine you have phone app in background. it got
swapped out as you did last call 8 hours ago. now, you recieve call and
what? you should wait for your app to be paged back even to start
hearing ring! considering fr sd io speed is 2.6M/s, and your app is for
example 10M, this will take 4 seconds in best case. something have to be
also discarded from memory too free up that 10M before loading your
phone app.

2. situation (2) is described in [1] you pointed. i personally face it
tons of times - some program (last were firefox and midming commander)
just run out memory due to bug or other reasons and starts incrementally
requesting swap. if you unlicky (and do not kill app in 30 seconds), you
may get your terminal and most of X be unloaded to swap, and only thing
you can do after that is hard reset. introducing limits will kill only
really useful feature of swap - being able to load something larger than
memory (3)

3. about your favorite gps application. i think it should create file
and map it to memory instead of using extreme amounts of ram to store
all data. In older day of swap not all systems had such ability. It's
strange that sometimg became 'slow'. without swap it should never become
slow, it should be just oomkilled. in fact, i do not understand this
problem very well, as i think that just next malloc should return 0, or
new throw bad_alloc.

4. swap on nand is special story. recently i saw really interesting
article on this topic (by DocScrutinizer i think). as nand has block
size of >4kb, writing (and reading) scatter pages (4k) to it may be very
slow process.

5. if your distribution is on internal NAND, it may be several times
faster to reload application from internal flash than to swap from sd.

So, i can see that i only had problems with swap and never had real
_need_

Re: QtMoko Virtual Memory

[Sylvain Paré]

yeah long but thx!

2010/9/1 Gennady Kupava 

> В Срд, 01/09/2010 в 12:38 +0200, David Garabana Barro пишет:
> >
> > It's not true for me, and it's a common misunderstanding IMHO.
>
> This is not misunderstanding, this is just one of questions which can't
> have only one answer. For some tasks swap is good, for others - bad. I
> have strong (enough for me) arguments too. Yours are strong for you, so
> this is just matter of situation.
>
> >
> > For testing, simply try to download tiles at zoom level 11, for the upper
> 6
> > zoom levels in tangoGPS. Better if you make it twice (moving on the map)
> >
> > Without swap, it will catch all available memory, and FR will get really
> > slow, to the limit of appearing to hang, and even sometimes oomkill
> will
> > start killing some random process.
> > With swap, linux can swap unused pages (other daemon pages, not tangogps
> ones)
> > and tangogps will continue running, and FR will be responsible. You only
> will
> > notice some 1-4 seconds slowdown from time to time, when pages are
> swapped out
> >
> > swap is not only for "creating" more memory. If FR starts to massively
> trashing
> > pages to swap, it will really SLOW things a lot, for sure (the same is
> true for
> > your PC)
> >
> > But it will help *a lot* to have more memory available for running apps.
> > Think on swap as a place where put unused memory pages, and use real RAM
> for
> > currently used apps or caching files from slow uSD
> >
> > Swap will *ALLWAYS* help, but will help a lot more on a limited memory
> device,
> > as FR
> >
> > Here [1] you can read more about what I'm saying.
> >
> > [1] http://kerneltrap.org/node/3202
>
> Thanks for description, now my position:
>
> First of all, i do not use swap on any Linux system i am using with
> amount of memory >=512Mb. I even do not use swap on desktop where i have
> tmpfs mounted to /tmp.
>
> Having something published on kerneltrap is not meant to be only
> possible answer, i can provide an example. Few years ago Linus believed
> that moving everything to userspace is good idea and this is way to go.
> Now i see everything is included to kernel (devfs vs udev, evdev vs
> tslib, kms vs userspace mode switching). But i am still at the point
> that every possible thing should be in userspace. I think, both points
> of view very extensivly published to mailing lists and both have strong
> grounds :)
>
> First, about swap in general. IMO, swap were introduced in absolutely
> different context. In 80's memory situation were completely different.
>
> ---
> now, real situations.
>
> 1. main swap problem is in it's nature. it will push to disk
> less-frequently used pages from memory but use 'freed memory'. But for
> me it turned out that it is impossible to predict which page is useful
> which is not _in future_, and it turns out that freed memory on all
> modern systems used to keep relatively useless huge disk cache. it's
> question (for me) is _huge_ disk cache is better than _meduim-sized_
> disk cache in many situations. note that I found that using tmpfs is
> times faster than using such 'buffer' (i tested qtmoko build). having
> random process swapped-out also makes system very unpredictive. you may
> never know how long some application will start, this annoying for me, i
> like low latency.
>
> 1a. to apply (1) to FR. imagine you have phone app in background. it got
> swapped out as you did last call 8 hours ago. now, you recieve call and
> what? you should wait for your app to be paged back even to start
> hearing ring! considering fr sd io speed is 2.6M/s, and your app is for
> example 10M, this will take 4 seconds in best case. something have to be
> also discarded from memory too free up that 10M before loading your
> phone app.
>
> 2. situation (2) is described in [1] you pointed. i personally face it
> tons of times - some program (last were firefox and midming commander)
> just run out memory due to bug or other reasons and starts incrementally
> requesting swap. if you unlicky (and do not kill app in 30 seconds), you
> may get your terminal and most of X be unloaded to swap, and only thing
> you can do after that is hard reset. introducing limits will kill only
> really useful feature of swap - being able to load something larger than
> memory (3)
>
> 3. about your favorite gps application. i think it should create file
> and map it to memory instead of using extreme amounts of ram to store
> all data. In older day of swap not all systems had such ability. It's
> strange that sometimg became 'slow'. without swap it should never become
> slow, it should be just oomkilled. in fact, i do not understand this
> problem very well, as i think that just next malloc should return 0, or
> new throw bad_alloc.
>
> 4. swap on nand is special story. recently i saw really interesting
> article on this topic (by DocScrutinizer i think). as nand has block
> size of >4kb, writing (and reading) scatter pages (4k) to it may be very
> slow process.
>

Re: Freerunner - small and fast distribution only for GPS

[Helge Hafting]

On 28. aug. 2010 00:33, Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
> Carsten Gerlach  writes:
>> does someone know a small distribution which is only made for GPS usage? For
>
> I don't really see the point in having a yet another
> distribution. Just take an existing distribution and configure it to
> fit this task. Optionally contribute back some new packages.
>
> Configuring a system for GPS-only use is an interesting challenge.
>
> 1) The filesystem probably should be read-only so that you can turn
> the power off at any time, right?

Set it up so you suspend it, instead of turning off. Unsuspend
is much faster than boot.

I wonder: For such a simple setup, could unsuspend be used
instead of booting? I.e. if you lost power, you unsuspend into some 
saved image, instead of waiting for a cold boot.


>
> 2) The only volatile part of the filesystem would then be the gps
> tracks?

To be completely power-proof, use a synchronously mounted sdcard. Slow 
fs, but gps logging is low volume anyway.

Helge Hafting

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Re: Freerunner - small and fast distribution only for GPS

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Helge Hafting  writes:
> I wonder: For such a simple setup, could unsuspend be used
> instead of booting? I.e. if you lost power, you unsuspend into some 
> saved image, instead of waiting for a cold boot.

The state of hardware will be lost, it's not so easy.

> To be completely power-proof, use a synchronously mounted sdcard. Slow 
> fs, but gps logging is low volume anyway.

Maybe something like LVM snapshots could guarantee an atomic way to
update files on the disk?


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Re: [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Al Johnson]

On Wednesday 01 September 2010, Maksim 'max_posedon' Melnikau wrote:
> Because of FR's NOR bootloader, better to have some hacks in kernel, imho.

The NOR bootloader is only intended to allow you to fix a broken NAND 
bootloader. You can do this perfectly well with the slower timings the NOR 
bootloader uses, so why do we need hacks in the kernel?

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Re: [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Timo Juhani Lindfors]

Gennady Kupava  writes:
> 1. I beleive that default timings of 4-4-4 is a bug, which should be
> fixed. Where is no reason to keep default timings.

Hmm, wasn't there some WSOD problem that started to occur with 2-4-2?

< gena2x> Weiss: month ago i asked you to comment/do proper fix for
the 2-4-2 WSOD problem with newer compilators. Now it known that this
patch also fixes 4-4-4 ro ration WS. anything new about this patch?

To support regression testing it would be nice to be able to boot
older kernels. However, if the WSOD is rare enough then maybe hard
coding could be ok. However, I don't see why u-boot couldn't just have
an environment variable for the timings. At least for the time being.


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Re: [Android] Froyo (Android 2.2) on Freerunner????

[Thomas HOCEDEZ]

 Le 01/09/2010 14:31, Atilla Filiz a écrit :
> AFAIK Serdar Dere is actively developing Android for FR, so I am sure
> the images are real. How (close to being)usable they are, that is to
> wonder.
>
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 5:06 PM, David Garabana Barro
> mailto:da...@garabana.com>> wrote:
>
> On Thursday 05 August 2010 16:52:24 Jan Girlich wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag, den 05.08.2010, 16:42 +0200 schrieb David
> Garabana Barro:
> > > http://serdar-dere.net/~serdar/daily/
> 
> > >
> > > Are these images real?
> > >
> > > Are there Android 2.2 images for Freeruner?
> >
> > I doubt these images are of any use (yet). Look at the filesizes.
> > They're just about 7MB, way too small for a real image.
>
> Yes, but first one size is 67 MB.
>
> On the thread Nelson posted minutes ago, you can see they are
> real, but they
> only compile and boot. Not useful by the moment
> :)
>
>
Hi !

Of course the images are real (those > 7Mo!). I flashed my FR with it,
it boots, starts, and ... Worked !  Ok you have to be Really patient
because of the slowlyness of the interface, but everything works !
-- 

Thomas HOCEDEZ / Asthro, Openmoko-fr.org

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Re: [Community Updates] 2010-09-01 is out

[Gennady Kupava]

В Срд, 01/09/2010 в 18:39 +0300, Timo Juhani Lindfors пишет:
> Gennady Kupava  writes:
> > 1. I beleive that default timings of 4-4-4 is a bug, which should be
> > fixed. Where is no reason to keep default timings.
> 
> Hmm, wasn't there some WSOD problem that started to occur with 2-4-2?

No, where is no WSOD, only WS, so you can boot your device and fix
kernel in case of troubles.

2-4-2 just highlighted it, it existed for 4-4-4 too but visible only on
rotation, etc, workaround exist. 

> 
> To support regression testing it would be nice to be able to boot
> older kernels. However, if the WSOD is rare enough then maybe hard
> coding could be ok. However, I don't see why u-boot couldn't just have
> an environment variable for the timings. At least for the time being.
> 

You can boot .29 kernel (from qtmoko or debian) without problems. What
kind of old kernels you want to care of except this?

> I don't see why u-boot couldn't just have
> an environment variable for the timings. At least for the time being.

So far, i see no reason to keep old state, my p(1) is about this, yes?
What to do with qi?

Gennady.





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Re: FOSDEM 2011

[Simon Busch]

On 01.09.2010 14:09, Dr. Michael Lauer wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> FOSDEM just released the call for dev-rooms.
> (http://www.fosdem.org/2011/)
>
> After our lucky mini-appereance which was
> quite well received, I wonder whether anyone
> would be interested in organizing
> a combined SHR/FSO/  devroom for next year.
>
> I will not have enough time to take the wheel
> on this, however I volunteer to do something
> (presentation, workshop, whatever) should
> we get the opportunity to have such a room.
>
> Cheers,
>
> :M:

I would like to attend a dev room on FOSDEM too, if I have the time in 
early februrary to come to belgium. So if anyone is interested in 
organizing a dev room, please do so!

regards,
morphis


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Re: FOSDEM 2011

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 01.09.2010 um 18:51 schrieb Simon Busch:

> On 01.09.2010 14:09, Dr. Michael Lauer wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> FOSDEM just released the call for dev-rooms.
>> (http://www.fosdem.org/2011/)
>> 
>> After our lucky mini-appereance which was
>> quite well received, I wonder whether anyone
>> would be interested in organizing
>> a combined SHR/FSO/  devroom for next year.
>> 
>> I will not have enough time to take the wheel
>> on this, however I volunteer to do something
>> (presentation, workshop, whatever) should
>> we get the opportunity to have such a room.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> :M:
> 
> I would like to attend a dev room on FOSDEM too, if I have the time in 
> early februrary to come to belgium. So if anyone is interested in 
> organizing a dev room, please do so!

The devroom last (ahem, this) year was really successful. I had made
some photos:

http://freeyourphone.de/portal_v1/viewtopic.php?p=16881#p16881

So I would also appreciate if someone could organize that.

Nikolaus

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Re: QtMoko Virtual Memory

[Alfa21]

hi all, here I am too ;)

2010-09...@15:41 Gennady Kupava
> В Срд, 01/09/2010 в 12:38 +0200, David Garabana Barro пишет:

whoa! a lot of stuff... interesting thread
I'd like to add just my 2c:

what about reducing the swappiness?
since qtmoko v19 I use a swap partition (I'm not for the swapfile solution) 
with a vm.swappiness value = 0

I think this is ok for my freerunner use case because:
1 - I use the real ram as soon as it's free
2 - I've the swap extra memory too
3 - I'm worried about uSD usage and I'm not sure if my memory has the wear 
leveling feature

when I check my free memory I usually see used the ram, instead the swap is 
fully available.
(obviously things are different if I do apt-get or other jobs not typical in a 
mobile phone scenario and my swap is here to willing be used)

kind regards!
-- 
ALFA21 IS PROVIDED "AS IS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR 
IMPLIED.

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