Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Hi Bob, Am 24.08.2013 um 02:10 schrieb Bob Ham: On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 00:20 +0200, joerg Reisenweber wrote: Can't you finally come up with some *suggestions* or - even better - real actions that would help? At present the community is beholden to a particular company which produces something the community depends on. No, the community does not depend on it. There is a company that feels itself a member of this community and has developed an offer everyone can accept or decline. That company has a monopoly on production within the community. No. It does not share the source files for its work and does not allow others to contribute to designs. Yes. This is no difference to Openmoko, Inc. did since 2007. This is the same situation as a community that is beholden to a company producing proprietary software. No. The GTA04 is like proprietary hardware. No. For proprietary hardware you have no schematics, no clear identification of the components, some custom made components without any information, and no documentation which GPIO is doing what. We have schematics in a .pdf file but nothing else. Yes. And the PDF is the source. You can run OCR and convert it into any format you like. And modify it as you like. What else do you expect? More convenience? The Schematics and the component placement chart of the GTA02 - both as a printable PDF - were sufficient to design the GTA04 board... So it is not lack of information if nobody is picking up the GTA04 design... There is no shared repository containing the source files for the schematics or the PCB designs. Nobody can commit design fixes. Is this a requirement for FLOSS that you can commit anything directly to the original repository? Do you have commit access to the master branch of kernel.org? Anyways, you can make change proposals and there are others who sign off and accept your patches into the master if they fit into the project goal and fit to some design style and rules. So if you want something to be changed, please write me an e-mail (in natural language) with your patches. Or propose it here on this list. The community is not iterating the GTA04 design. The community is not working together to create a free phone. Instead, all we do is discuss and argue about one company's product. The community can help much better in other areas, e.g. marketing, spreading the word, software, etc. because high density PCB design needs a very specific type of knowledge that isn't widely available. And, the PCB must be 100% correct or even 100.00%. so it is better to have a very small team. A lot of people have come up with various ideas for modifications to the GTA04. Some of them simply require some soldering which is no problem. However, some require a redesign of the board. To my recollection, nobody has ever pointed out that this isn't possible unless Golden Delicious do it. The fact that only Golden Delicious can do it is bad. No. Because you can do it as well. You can start to learn how to design PCBs, aquire some PCB design tool, capture or convert the schematics, and make your own layout. Then, find someone who does production for you. Despite describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware¹ and stating that the aims of the community are for DIY hardware², Golden Delicious does not release any source files for the hardware it produces. There is no community of hardware hackers contributing to shared PCB designs. Because designing such a difficile and miniaturized device is more challenging than the average hardware hacker is capable to do. I suggest that the community changes from consuming hardware designed and built by a single controlling entity to producing one or more Open Source Hardware³ phone designs which can be taken as a base, modified and manufactured by any party. For example, a board design could be used in the same fashion as the GTA04, as a replacement for GTA01/02 boards but could also be modified by the N900 community to provide an updated board for their phone. It is possible to design a board for that by the procedure descibed above. I suggest that Golden Delicious release the source files for the GTA04 board in order to assist this effort and act as a base for the first community phone design. Essentially you are mixing openness and modifiability of source and compiled binary. The source in such a hardware project is the schematics (which is open for the GTA04) and the compiled result is the PCB (which is not easily modifiable, even with proper tools). It is like you are asking an open source project to publish compiled binaries, before you call it open source. IMHO this is only convenience. Finally some more technical aspect: it is not easy to just modify the PCB to fit into an N900 case. You more or less have to redo the whole PCB layout process (i.e. the compilation), although the Schematics can be almost the same. So you virtually want to change
Re: Reasons why people could be interested in this community
Am 24.08.2013 um 01:51 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: On the Road --- hns Am 23.08.2013 um 22:45 schrieb Bob Ham r...@settrans.net: On Fri, 2013-08-23 at 17:30 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide to spend money on the GTA04? I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me. Why are you still a member of this community and participating in this discussion? This is a honest question. What is your answer? The reason why I ask is that if you can tell yourself why you are so enthusiastically discussing these topics, you must have some reason. And other people may find your reasons interesting and could potentially agree to them. This would help to grow the community. So I think you can develop some helpful answer to your question by answering my question. -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reasons why people could be interested in this community
On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 09:56 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Why are you still a member of this community
I want freedom. I want a phone that runs 100% free software, including
any firmware for component devices and also including firmware running
on the baseband processor. I want the same freedom for the hardware.
The openmoko-community and openphoenux-community mailing lists are
places where I expect like-minded people will congregate.
and participating in this discussion?
Even though I believe the GTA04 product from Golden Delicious is not
viable, I don't expect it will be the last effort to produce a free
phone. Indeed, if Golden Delicious release the source files for the
board, the GTA04 design could form a base for the development of the
next effort. I hope this will happen.
I hope that by participating in the discussion I can convince others to
let go of the GTA04 product and embrace a broader, freer vision of a
community that produces its own phone designs collaboratively. I
believe this change will enable movement forward, bringing us closer to
viable products and ultimately closer to freedom.
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
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Re: Reasons why people could be interested in this community
On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 09:56:46 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 24.08.2013 um 01:51 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller: On the Road --- hns Am 23.08.2013 um 22:45 schrieb Bob Ham r...@settrans.net: On Fri, 2013-08-23 at 17:30 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote: On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote: I don't understand. What is the green light with respect to the GTA04? That was already mentioned; money for components being available. The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned. Here you seem to be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being available. How is that transition going to happen? What's going to cause the green light to go on? People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is too expensive. What is going to cause people to decide that? What do you think the reason is? I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that decision. This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see. You said you're waiting. What do you believe is going to happen? What are you waiting *for*? What is going to occur that will cause people to decide to spend money on the GTA04? I can't see any reason. A train stopped at a disconnected signal light waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me. Why are you still a member of this community and participating in this discussion? This is a honest question. What is your answer? The reason why I ask is that if you can tell yourself why you are so enthusiastically discussing these topics, you must have some reason. I don't value it a fair question. Making dissent and digging into the weak points of our project will bring us forward. The problem is not questioning where we are stuck, the problem is not solving the issues. If nothing changes and no one is asking anymore the project is dead. And other people may find your reasons interesting and could potentially agree to them. This would help to grow the community. I found Bob's contributions valuable, please keep it up. The comments were less disturbing than hns' negative views on our potential which I see as a main blocker as well. I can't judge if they are right, but it makes a fundamental difference if one tells about the obstacles and at the same time shares thoughts how to get around them contrary to people who It is like this. with the implication we can't change anything about it. The latter is looking a bit desperate and will not bring us forward. So I think you can develop some helpful answer to your question by answering my question. I also can't answer all your questions (of other mails), especially not while I am focusing on the website design. I am on it, but hesitate to produce more soap (like this mail). Kardan -- Kardan kar...@riseup.net Encrypt your email: http://gnupg.org/documentation Public GPG key 9D6108AE58C06558 at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net fpr: F72F C4D9 6A52 16A1 E7C9 AE94 9D61 08AE 58C0 6558 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 11:21 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 24.08.2013 um 02:10 schrieb Bob Ham:
We have schematics in a .pdf file but nothing else.
Yes. And the PDF is the source.
I don't believe this is the case. I believe the PDF was compiled from
designs that came from other files. I don't believe your circuit
designs were written in the PDF language. If they came from other
files, the PDF is not the source, the other files are the source.
You can run OCR and convert it into any
format you like. And modify it as you like. What else do you expect? More
convenience?
It's not so much about convenience. Let me quote the GPL 2:
The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
making modifications to it.
There is a reason for stipulating this. Having to convert a work into a
format suitable for making modifications represents a barrier. It's a
barrier to freedom. It can be abused.
Even disregarding this reasoning, let's assume that it *is* just about
convenience. Why is that bad? Why would you not want to help people
take the GTA04 design and create a derivative? Why would you want to
make it more difficult? Why are you reluctant to release the source
files?
high density PCB design needs a very specific
type of knowledge that isn't widely available.
The specialisation of the knowledge required to work on phone designs
means that those with the knowledge will likely have high demands on
their time. That means that one should aim to make it as easy as
possible for them to get involved in the community. That means removing
barriers like having to create new PCB designs from the PDF schematics.
That means releasing the source files for the existing designs.
Despite describing the GTA04 as Open Hardware¹ and stating that the
aims of the community are for DIY hardware², Golden Delicious does not
release any source files for the hardware it produces. There is no
community of hardware hackers contributing to shared PCB designs.
Because designing such a difficile and miniaturized device is more challenging
than the average hardware hacker is capable to do.
So let's foster a community of above-average hardware hackers who are up
to the challenge. Golden Delicious can help foster such a community by
making the source files for the GTA04 available.
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
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Re: Reasons why people could be interested in this community
On Sat 24 August 2013 13:00:45 Bob Ham wrote: On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 09:56 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Why are you still a member of this community I want freedom. I want a phone that runs 100% free software, including any firmware for component devices and also including firmware running on the baseband processor. I want the same freedom for the hardware. The openmoko-community and openphoenux-community mailing lists are places where I expect like-minded people will congregate. and participating in this discussion? Even though I believe the GTA04 product from Golden Delicious is not viable, I don't expect it will be the last effort to produce a free phone. Indeed, if Golden Delicious release the source files for the board, the GTA04 design could form a base for the development of the next effort. I hope this will happen. You say gta04 is a fine basis to do further improvements but it's not worth getting the device itself. That's insane. HNS and his small crew invested substantial time and *money* into actually *producing* a working device and all you need to do is buy one. This would allow golddelico to continue their awesome work. But what you are interested in seems not at all focused on joining efforts but to fork and try on your own if you could do any better than Nikolaus. I consider this rogue and silly. Plus you evidently have not the faintest idea of what's the real troubles in hw design and production, otherwise you'd not think you could do substantially better than goldelico. Every fool can draw up a nice (though most certainly not bug-free) schematics, and even creating a PCB layout is not that complicated, there are FOSS tools for that. The problems are somewhere else, and a project that considers PCB gerbers of GTA04 as an indispensable prerequisite for a new design, well such project is doomed to fail from beginning and I'd consider it detrimental to the actually existing and working GTA04 project since - even if not the manpower of those devels who focus on the new project due to lack of expertise and insight into where the major problems of any such project are - it however will deprive GTA04 project of possible customers that might contribute to GTA04 (and successors) with their money, if they weren't lured into waiting for another competing project started by a few guys who obviously think they can do better since they don't know sh*t about hw manufacturing. my 2 ct about this weird arguing here. A word to Nikolaus: I'm a bit sad that you ignore the fact that openmoko *did* share gerbers, PADS project files, BOM, whatever, on request. We shared everything, sometimes under a NDA when we had to do that way. And maybe you didn't know but Wolfgang pestered all EE pretty badly to allow community contribution, just we never really could come up with a workflow how to make such process work. The problem with that is the expertise of community contributions which take ten times the manpower of company EE staff to explain why it can't get done this way, than what company EE would need to come up with an own better draft for the same thing. OM been a company with lots of money so we didn't worry too much about community competing projects, and eventually I even convinced Sean and Wolfgang and others that no commercial competitor will snatch away and copy- cat our product either. Bottom line: to claim OM never allowed community contribution and never shared PCB or project files is pretty incorrect. cheers jOERG -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3
On Friday, August 23, 2013 06:50:11 PM Lukas Märdian wrote: Again, I'd like to out point to some website designs I did quite some time ago, maybe for others to evaluate and improve upon: GTA04 project page: http://slyon.de/gta04/index.old.php OpenPhoenux preorder/crowd-funding page: http://slyon.de/gta04/preorder.html Hi, imo they are very nice and more attractive then current gta04.org. Regards Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
production displays
On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 12:36:42 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: If 200 people agree to put 599 EUR on the table we could start production tomorrow (well, we need 6-8 weeks to get the components) and 200 GTA04 boards would be available in November. We could also order 200 3D-printed cases, earpieces etc. to make complete phones. One issue is that we have just ~70 display modules, and they are out of production for a long time. But there may be some remaining stock in Asia, so it appears to be a solvable problem. Doing a redesign for a different display, different case (N900) is also possible, but takes more time (estimate 4-6 months). But it also needs 200 * 599 EUR on the table. Not to start design or production (that has become my hobby), but to buy components. I don't get this passage. Note I am not a hardware expert so it is not clear to me how 200 boards can be available in november if a redesign with a new display takes nearly half a year. Where are 130+ displays supposed to materialze until november? I understand your assumption that there is some stock somewhere and would love to see that proven with a reliable price tag. Kardan -- Kardan kar...@riseup.net Encrypt your email: http://gnupg.org/documentation Public GPG key 9D6108AE58C06558 at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net fpr: F72F C4D9 6A52 16A1 E7C9 AE94 9D61 08AE 58C0 6558 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone
On Friday, August 23, 2013 10:21:33 PM arne anka wrote: the missing money is just the indicator for this project's failure to create sufficient public interest or even awareness. while the GTA01/2 was a nice idea, it was already slightly outdated when it appeared -- and since then nothing has changed, the gap between what's considered standard and what the GTAxx is prepared to deliver rather has widened. to get even close to standard (and thus being a realistic alternative for smartphone users), the project would need backing of a far more potent entity than this tiny community is -- both money- and publicitywise. since the GTA02 i spend about 2000€ on this project, maybe more (well, i can afford it and it was worth supporting the idea behind it), and in my very personal and subjective opinion, the GTA04 has been a huge disappointment. i wouldn't spend the equivalent of a highend, state-of-art smartphone or even tablet just to buy yet another even more outdated device, free or not. compared to the shortcomings of the GTA04, even complete freedom is not sufficient to justify that amount of money. whenever i told somebody who had heard of OpenMoko that there's a successor, they were surprised -- and when i told them the features and the price, i got an incredulous grin and the question if someone really believed that people would spend that amount for such a device. i am still undecided if i should admire or pity the thread starter, if he honestly believed that this community would be able to succeed where ubuntu failed -- and on top of that to jump from todays GTA04 to the device as imagined by ubuntu ... all things considered, the realistic path is imo to cater to a tiny niche of institutional customers -- like jörg(?) proposed. while i am personally rather fond of the original GTA01 case (and think that's almost the only tangible unique feature), i, too, would prefer it to pick up where the n900 left. maybe then it could even tap into the pool of still active n900 fans ... Very well written. I can add a few more points. For me GTA04 is not usable as daily phone. It's now collecting dust in shelf. Why? 1/ poor power management 2/ bugged reenumerating modem GTA04 is good enough only in some situations. E.g. ok if i carry it to work where i can anytime charge it. When i am on bike 150km from home i must have reliable phone in case that the bike breaks up or in case that i need map. I took GTA04 with 2 batteries and N900 on my bike trip this summer. I used N900 as a phone with SIM card. GTA04 was switched off - i just used it for GPS. But after 4 hours one battery was empty and second battery was 50% empty during one night in suspend. On the other hand N900 was working whole 4 days. I used it for calls, for wifi in camps and in the end even for GPS. I though that self-made open source phone will have good power management. I though it will be easy or at least possible to identify where the power goes. I am even more dissapointed that noone except Neil Brown tried to improve the situation. Event GTA02 is s much better in this area. For me this is so important that GTA02 is now much more usable then GTA04. It's like having car that can go just 30km. And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent tried newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem. I dont understand why produce more phones until these problems are fixed. I even dont understand the efforts to make PVR, camera, radio and other components working, unless we have working phone and not mobile heat generator. Well you can answer why i am just writing mails instead of doing something. But i always worked in userspace. I barely understand kernel and i have no EE skills and equipment to contribute. I can contribute only as a tester. I thought that i will deliver working userspace and IMO QtMoko is very good at it. But without working kernel and HW there is not much point to improve it. Regards Radek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: production displays
Am 24.08.2013 um 12:57 schrieb kardan: On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 12:36:42 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: If 200 people agree to put 599 EUR on the table we could start production tomorrow (well, we need 6-8 weeks to get the components) and 200 GTA04 boards would be available in November. We could also order 200 3D-printed cases, earpieces etc. to make complete phones. One issue is that we have just ~70 display modules, and they are out of production for a long time. But there may be some remaining stock in Asia, so it appears to be a solvable problem. Doing a redesign for a different display, different case (N900) is also possible, but takes more time (estimate 4-6 months). But it also needs 200 * 599 EUR on the table. Not to start design or production (that has become my hobby), but to buy components. I don't get this passage. Note I am not a hardware expert so it is not clear to me how 200 boards can be available in november if a redesign with a new display takes nearly half a year. The displays (Toppoly) are no longer in production but we have some in stock. And, the GTA04A5 board is designed to use them. So it is just about producing again based on the existing design. Changing the display to a model that we can buy in any quantity from running production needs to redesign the PCB and test and qualify that for production. Where are 130+ displays supposed to materialze until november? I Sometimes, companies buy components and after 2 or 3 years they end production of the devices using these components. And then, they try to sell their overstock. There are component brokers who are experienced in getting such old/obsolete components. understand your assumption that there is some stock somewhere and would love to see that proven with a reliable price tag. That has not been researched - and may change every day. I can't tell if it is easy or difficult before someone starts to really buy them. It may be just some Alibaba search or a search for a needle in a haystack. But *I* will not start this research before it is clear that we need them, because it would be waste of my lifetime... -- hns ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Excuse me very much, I don't mean to offend anyone, I actually care about project a lot. I really appreciate the project and I would like to have a gta04 based device, probably tablet. It's just too expensive for me now. Recently I became a lucky owner of a freerunner, got one used, and need to tell, that I had a lot of problems both under SHR and QtMoko. I believe it's solvable. Unfortunately the device is not very useful because I cannot get stable connection to the internet to run pidgin, due to power management probably, also in recent SHR releases most of the time sim card don't get recognized. And I feel that n810 as mobile computer is more useable. That's why I would like to find a used openpandora, because it's open, and it's mobile computer. I don't need a phone, if I have jabber with ssl connection. Anyway, I just want to add, that indeed, if one needs to OCR a pdf, then it's more like reverse engineering, rather than source. It's of course arguable, but I don't see why don't share the actual source files? Why? On Sat, 24 Aug 2013, Bob Ham wrote: On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 11:21 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 24.08.2013 um 02:10 schrieb Bob Ham: We have schematics in a .pdf file but nothing else. Yes. And the PDF is the source. I don't believe this is the case. I believe the PDF was compiled from designs that came from other files. I don't believe your circuit designs were written in the PDF language. If they came from other files, the PDF is not the source, the other files are the source. You can run OCR and convert it into any format you like. And modify it as you like. What else do you expect? More convenience? It's not so much about convenience. Let me quote the GPL 2: The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone
On Sat 24 August 2013 14:22:55 Radek Polak wrote: 1/ poor power management [...] something. But i always worked in userspace. I barely understand kernel and i have no EE skills and equipment to contribute. I can contribute only as a tester. I thought that i will deliver working userspace and IMO QtMoko is very good at it. But without working kernel and HW there is not much point to improve it. many thanks for this contribution, it's already a better help than much of the discussion about what's wrong with our community and the GTA04 project at large. However one remark about it: it's not that simple to blame kernel for poor power management. What we learned from last maybe 6 years of different OM distros and from maemo and mer and nitdroid etc is: poor power management is way too often caused by userland, like sensorfw and WLAN connection manager and X11/windowmanager and audio (alsa/PA) and whatnot else. Often it's even rogue apps that do silly stuff like updating their system status icon 25 times per second or constantly chatting with internet or even just polling files when you should use inotify instead. Kernel power saving measures are relatively simple to test and fix, and usually it's not kernel to blame for abysmal standby time and/or operation time. To give you a simple example: on N900 maemo you have scanning period in settings-internet, which makes device scan for WLAN APs only every 5, 10, ... even 30 min. This is needed since the WLAN chip cuts thru the battery in less than 3 hours when you constantly scan for APs. Clearly a userland issue where kernel can't do much. Now you can start to blame kernel WLAN driver for not doing proper powersaving but that won't help establish a decently working usable OS on N900. cheers jOERG -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone
Hi Radek, Am 24.08.2013 um 14:22 schrieb Radek Polak: On Friday, August 23, 2013 10:21:33 PM arne anka wrote: the missing money is just the indicator for this project's failure to create sufficient public interest or even awareness. while the GTA01/2 was a nice idea, it was already slightly outdated when it appeared -- and since then nothing has changed, the gap between what's considered standard and what the GTAxx is prepared to deliver rather has widened. to get even close to standard (and thus being a realistic alternative for smartphone users), the project would need backing of a far more potent entity than this tiny community is -- both money- and publicitywise. since the GTA02 i spend about 2000€ on this project, maybe more (well, i can afford it and it was worth supporting the idea behind it), and in my very personal and subjective opinion, the GTA04 has been a huge disappointment. i wouldn't spend the equivalent of a highend, state-of-art smartphone or even tablet just to buy yet another even more outdated device, free or not. compared to the shortcomings of the GTA04, even complete freedom is not sufficient to justify that amount of money. whenever i told somebody who had heard of OpenMoko that there's a successor, they were surprised -- and when i told them the features and the price, i got an incredulous grin and the question if someone really believed that people would spend that amount for such a device. i am still undecided if i should admire or pity the thread starter, if he honestly believed that this community would be able to succeed where ubuntu failed -- and on top of that to jump from todays GTA04 to the device as imagined by ubuntu ... all things considered, the realistic path is imo to cater to a tiny niche of institutional customers -- like jörg(?) proposed. while i am personally rather fond of the original GTA01 case (and think that's almost the only tangible unique feature), i, too, would prefer it to pick up where the n900 left. maybe then it could even tap into the pool of still active n900 fans ... Very well written. I can add a few more points. For me GTA04 is not usable as daily phone. It's now collecting dust in shelf. Why? 1/ poor power management 2/ bugged reenumerating modem GTA04 is good enough only in some situations. E.g. ok if i carry it to work where i can anytime charge it. When i am on bike 150km from home i must have reliable phone in case that the bike breaks up or in case that i need map. I took GTA04 with 2 batteries and N900 on my bike trip this summer. I used N900 as a phone with SIM card. GTA04 was switched off - i just used it for GPS. But after 4 hours one battery was empty and second battery was 50% empty during one night in suspend. On the other hand N900 was working whole 4 days. I used it for calls, for wifi in camps and in the end even for GPS. That is something I still don't understand. From a power budget the modem is specified to have 3-10 mA in suspend while registered to a base station. I have even verified this with an ampere-meter. And there is only one potential deviation - if there is some attenuation (e.g. wall) there may be a situation where the modem receives the base station well and tries to answer/register. But since the base station does not receive it at all, it tries with high power. In this case the modem current increases to 50-100 mA. BTW: this is the same with almost all mobile devices. So it must be something in the OMAP system and that is IMHO the same as the N900 has... So pure kernel code. BTW: this would not change by redesigning the GTA04 into a spare N900 case... I though that self-made open source phone will have good power management. I though it will be easy or at least possible to identify where the power goes. I am even more dissapointed that noone except Neil Brown tried to improve the situation. Yes, that made me wonder as well. It appears that it needs some very special skills we don't have in our community. Or we have but those members have no time. Event GTA02 is s much better in this area. For me this is so important that GTA02 is now much more usable then GTA04. It's like having car that can go just 30km. And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent tried newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem. Because the upgrade firmware did not run on the kernels for unknown reasons (failed with segfaults). And because we must make RMS believe that there is no way to upgrade the modem firmware from user space. I dont understand why produce more phones until these problems are fixed. I don't know how to fix these problems without producing more phones. Especially there is one issue in the IrDA/RS232 driver which prevents the kernel to power down both and the ITG3200 may also draw some mA. This all would be fixed in the GTA04A5 board design. And there would be a
Re: Reasons why people could be interested in this community
Am 24.08.2013 um 13:36 schrieb joerg Reisenweber: On Sat 24 August 2013 13:00:45 Bob Ham wrote: On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 09:56 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Why are you still a member of this community I want freedom. I want a phone that runs 100% free software, including any firmware for component devices and also including firmware running on the baseband processor. I want the same freedom for the hardware. The openmoko-community and openphoenux-community mailing lists are places where I expect like-minded people will congregate. and participating in this discussion? Even though I believe the GTA04 product from Golden Delicious is not viable, I don't expect it will be the last effort to produce a free phone. Indeed, if Golden Delicious release the source files for the board, the GTA04 design could form a base for the development of the next effort. I hope this will happen. You say gta04 is a fine basis to do further improvements but it's not worth getting the device itself. That's insane. HNS and his small crew invested substantial time and *money* into actually *producing* a working device and all you need to do is buy one. This would allow golddelico to continue their awesome work. Exactly. But what you are interested in seems not at all focused on joining efforts but to fork and try on your own if you could do any better than Nikolaus. If someone is not happy that Goldelico wants to continue and asks for payment, please DIY. But start on the green field (yes, as prepared by Openmoko) as we have done. And please do it cheaper. Maybe I can learn from you how you do that. I consider this rogue and silly. Plus you evidently have not the faintest idea of what's the real troubles in hw design and production, otherwise you'd not think you could do substantially better than goldelico. Every fool can draw up a nice (though most certainly not bug-free) schematics, and even creating a PCB layout is not that complicated, there are FOSS tools for that. The problems are somewhere else, and a project that considers PCB gerbers of GTA04 as an indispensable prerequisite for a new design, well such project is doomed to fail from beginning and I'd consider it detrimental to the actually existing and working GTA04 project since - even if not the manpower of those devels who focus on the new project due to lack of expertise and insight into where the major problems of any such project are - it however will deprive GTA04 project of possible customers that might contribute to GTA04 (and successors) with their money, if they weren't lured into waiting for another competing project started by a few guys who obviously think they can do better since they don't know sh*t about hw manufacturing. ++ my 2 ct about this weird arguing here. A word to Nikolaus: I'm a bit sad that you ignore the fact that openmoko *did* share gerbers, PADS project files, BOM, whatever, on request. We shared everything, sometimes under a NDA when we had to do that way. Sorry, but I didn't know that until now. I just knew about the PDF schematics and the BOM and the 3D CAD data and the component placement plan. This was enough to start the GTA04 project, so I did not research further into what else would have been available on request. And maybe you didn't know but Wolfgang pestered all EE pretty badly to allow community contribution, just we never really could come up with a workflow how to make such process work. The problem with that is the expertise of community contributions which take ten times the manpower of company EE staff to explain why it can't get done this way, than what company EE would need to come up with an own better draft for the same thing. Oh yes, many cooks spoil the soup. In my experience it needs a small team at one location (so that you can really meet for discussions). And a team that can work in stealth mode for some time to come up with a proposal. OM been a company with lots of money so we didn't worry too much about community competing projects, and eventually I even convinced Sean and Wolfgang and others that no commercial competitor will snatch away and copy- cat our product either. Bottom line: to claim OM never allowed community contribution and never shared PCB or project files is pretty incorrect. Ok, now I know. Thanks for clarification! But anyways, it was not necesssary to fork the project to develop a GTA04. Developing the GTA04 did need something else. The believe that it can be done, is useful for the community and being crazy enough to do it. Therefore, I see all requests to get the projects files as distracting from the real problems we have. Which are component and production cost being higher than everybody would like to see (me included). And nobody to find a solution. Which is either lowering the cost or increasing what people interested in a GTA04 want to pay.
Re: Reasons why people could be interested in this community
On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 16:12 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
But start on the green field (yes, as prepared by Openmoko) as we
have done.
Why? Why do you want people to start on the green field rather than
building on your work?
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 11:26 +, Bob Ham wrote:
Even disregarding this reasoning, let's assume that it *is* just about
convenience. Why is that bad? Why would you not want to help people
take the GTA04 design and create a derivative? Why would you want to
make it more difficult?
I answered your questions about why I am taking part in this discussion.
I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions about helping
others create derivatives of the GTA04.
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Going outside - GTA04 website
Hello, community! I'd like to start discussion about how we communicate our presence to the external world. Recent threads showed that there's some need to think about it. I know this community consists rather of smart, technical geeks who don't want to lower themselves into stinky marketing world. I truly understand that :) But unfortunately, we need money and it's now clear that this small community is not enough to get each of our dreams to come true. I'd like to start this discussion with GTA04 website. While I appreciate current webpage for being very informative for someone who already know what's going on in this project, I think it sucks as our business card. When this page is the first thing someone new sees about GTA04, he or she we'll be confused and probably won't understand a lot. Even if he/she is not our target, it's bad, because if she/he has at least some impression about what this project is about, he/she can recommend it to some geeky friend or use it as some small talk topic. On the other hand, we cannot oversimplify our page. We were always targeting to people with some technical background, who generally prefer to get straight to the point instead of going through tons of advertising eye-candy bullshit. I've seen website proposition from Slyon: http://slyon.de/gta04/index.old.php I've also created quick draft by myself: http://dosowisko.net/gta04/ And of course there's the current one: http://gta04.org/ I'd like all of you to point out good and bad parts of each of them, so maybe we'll be able to create something that's rock solid for our needs. Keep in mind that my proposition is just a quick draft, it even uses default Bootstrap theme which we probably would like to adjust a bit to our needs (branding colors, some mentions about Golden Delicious and stuff like that). Content is not final too - there are probably some grammar errors and maybe even some misinformation (I wasn't really active in community for some time recently, so it's possible that I missed something). Maybe some things aren't even worth mentioning and there should be something else instead - go on with suggestions, it's nowhere near final now. And well, maybe even we'll decide that there's no point in trying to get more people into GTA04 now. Maybe redesigning it to fit N900 case will get popular in the community and it'll be better idea to start campaign together with this new phone. Or some other idea will come up. I trust this community. I'm still using my Freerunner, but unfortunately I'm more and more tired with it. I decided to start saving for some new phone and I want it to be OpenPhoenux device, be it GTA04 or anything new. Please, don't let this awesome project die! I'm still convinced that we can succeed. Would you like to try helping me help you help us all? :) -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos http://dosowisko.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Going outside - GTA04 website
Am 24.08.2013 17:36, schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak: I've also created quick draft by myself: http://dosowisko.net/gta04/ Hi Sebastian, just three words: This looks awesome! I think About and Features should be linked to some overview information/specs in the same page design, whereas Documentation should link to the GTA04 User Manual (http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/Manual/) and For developers should link to the GTA04 wiki (http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/). This way people can get attracted by a nice looking, modern Homepage and get a rough overview of what we want to supply and interested people can dig deeper into the (really great) User Manual or search the wiki for special topics. Regards, Lukas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reasons why people could be interested in this community
On Sat 24 August 2013 16:12:23 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: A word to Nikolaus: I'm a bit sad that you ignore the fact that openmoko did share gerbers, PADS project files, BOM, whatever, on request. We shared everything, sometimes under a NDA when we had to do that way. Sorry, but I didn't know that until now. I just knew about the PDF schematics and the BOM and the 3D CAD data and the component placement plan. This was enough to start the GTA04 project, so I did not research further into what else would have been available on request. Sure thing, and I wasn't to suggest otherwise. I also completely understand that nobody will hand out production process details to somebody who has not a single good reason why they are needed by him/her, except for cloning. When I get me an icecream cone at that italian guy, I of course won't ask him for every single detail of his production process since that's a rather bold approach. I can ask the guy about what components the icecream is made of and I'm sure he's happy to discuss the topic with me... Meh I digress. Nikolaus, keep up the good work please! Openmoko indeed did not *publish* the PADS project files, they got handed out on demand to guys we considered will make fair use of them. They had a story what for they needed them (master thesis etc) - nobody ever came and asked for our project files to start his own business based on that. And no wonder since it would've been extremely silly. Anyway, to all those guys out there acting as if Nikolaus owes you one: He invested REAL MONEY (5 digits?) and MONTHS (2 digits) of his working time into bringing some good stuff to community. Now you come and say that looks nice, please hand us the complete production process so we can do it ourselves and not pay anything to you for all your awesome work. I really wonder what you think this project is. Every other company would've kept the schematics closed and just deliver a blackbox product, and just because Goldelico opted for an open and public development process you think the money and time Nikolaus and co invested are legally the property of community now? :-o A quite disappointing mindset which I detect here. /j -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments (alas the above page got scrapped due to resignation(!!), so here some supplementary links:) http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml http://www.nonhtmlmail.org/campaign.html http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil_still.shtml http://www.gerstbach.at/2004/ascii/ (German) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Going outside - GTA04 website
Hi Sebastian, Just a quick reply as I must dash. Your draft design looks great, I really like it. I'm not sure about the text about ethics of manufacturing - while it is assembled in Germany, the components are sourced from factories with potentially similar working conditions to other phones, they use materials that are sourced in horrible ways and conditions, and so on. There has been some discussion here in the past about how we as a community absolutely don't have the leverage with suppliers (at least unless we were to grow a lot), so unfortunately I don't think this can change soon. But this does look great - good work! Nick ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Am 24.08.2013 um 13:26 schrieb Bob Ham: There is a reason for stipulating this. Having to convert a work into a format suitable for making modifications represents a barrier. It's a barrier to freedom. It can be abused. I don't understand that. The reason of open source is that you can rebuild the system if the original designer decides not to continue and maintain the system. For that you need the sources in some open way. A different story is that FSF did start some collaborative projects based on the GPL which of course needs people to be able to work on a common system as a team. Back to the GTA04, you have all you need in PDF format, i.e. you can maintain your GTA04 in any way you like. You are absolutely free to start to rebuild it from scratch or modify it. Nobody is stopping you from doing it. The licence for the PDF documents permits you to do it. So what is missing? I only see the convenience aspect. And regarding barriers, I rather think that asking people to install and learn the same schematics capture system that we use is an increased barrier over the current situation. The current mode of collaboration is that every e-mail telling some change request in plain language is welcome and will be translated to the required data format to produce a new PDF. This work is done by us - but what is bad about that? Only that you can't do it. I don't consider that as a problem. Neither for you nor for me. And as written somewhere else, there have been several proposals from the community that were included in the GTA04A3, A4 and A5 designs. So I still don't get the goal you are arguing for and how it improves the acceptance of the GTA04. BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Am 24.08.2013 um 17:27 schrieb Bob Ham: On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 11:26 +, Bob Ham wrote: Even disregarding this reasoning, let's assume that it *is* just about convenience. Why is that bad? Why would you not want to help people take the GTA04 design and create a derivative? Why would you want to make it more difficult? I answered your questions about why I am taking part in this discussion. Yes, this were indeed good answers and I think if you just tell them others they might jump in and subscribe here. I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions about helping others create derivatives of the GTA04. I think i have done this several times (spread over several mails) in the past hours. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On 2013-08-24 18:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 24.08.2013 um 13:26 schrieb Bob Ham:
There is a reason for stipulating this. Having to convert a work
into a
format suitable for making modifications represents a barrier. It's
a
barrier to freedom. It can be abused.
I only see the convenience aspect.
You haven't addressed my question. I want to know why you want people
to start PCB designs from scratch rather than making use of your work.
Why do you think that convenience a bad thing?
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On 2013-08-24 18:41, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Am 24.08.2013 um 17:27 schrieb Bob Ham:
I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions about helping
others create derivatives of the GTA04.
I think i have done this several times (spread over several mails) in
the
past hours.
I see plenty of reasoning about why you think people should avoid
trying to create derivatives of the GTA04.
I see no reasoning about why, once a person has decided to create a
derivative, you want them to create PCB designs from scratch rather than
using your work as a base. This is the matter that my question is
concerned with.
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Am 24.08.2013 um 20:42 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-24 18:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 24.08.2013 um 13:26 schrieb Bob Ham: There is a reason for stipulating this. Having to convert a work into a format suitable for making modifications represents a barrier. It's a barrier to freedom. It can be abused. I only see the convenience aspect. You haven't addressed my question. I want to know why you want people to start PCB designs from scratch rather than making use of your work. Why do you think that convenience a bad thing? Community means that you get something in return for your contribution into the community. In other words: because convenience has a price tag. Only your mother is giving you convenience for free... Or shorter: I am not an 100% altruist. Are you? Then, please donate all the money you have and will have to this project. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Am 24.08.2013 um 20:49 schrieb Bob Ham: On 2013-08-24 18:41, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: Am 24.08.2013 um 17:27 schrieb Bob Ham: I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions about helping others create derivatives of the GTA04. I think i have done this several times (spread over several mails) in the past hours. I see plenty of reasoning about why you think people should avoid trying to create derivatives of the GTA04. I have never said that. I just say that you can do it based on the material (e.g. PDF) that is already available and I will *not* stop anybody from doing it. This is a completely different message, isn't it? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Going outside - GTA04 website
Am 24.08.2013 um 18:11 schrieb Lukas Märdian: Am 24.08.2013 17:36, schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak: I've also created quick draft by myself: http://dosowisko.net/gta04/ Wow, that looks good! Almost like a kickstarter project page :) BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
On 2013-08-24 18:53, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
Only your mother is giving you convenience for free...
I find GNU to be overflowing with convenience.
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Re: Going outside - GTA04 website
On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 24.08.2013 um 18:11 schrieb Lukas Märdian: Am 24.08.2013 17:36, schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak: I've also created quick draft by myself: http://dosowisko.net/gta04/ Wow, that looks good! Almost like a kickstarter project page :) Thanks :) BTW, I'm constantly updating it with some details. If some of you checked it out early, you might want to do it again. I replaced some styles from default theme with customized ones (color of buttons etc.), added links and other stuff like that. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Nick openmoko-commun...@njw.me.uk wrote: I'm not sure about the text about ethics of manufacturing - while it is assembled in Germany, the components are sourced from factories with potentially similar working conditions to other phones, they use materials that are sourced in horrible ways and conditions, and so on. I'm aware of that and I think it's still worth mentioning. Of course we're using parts manufactured in a way we don't have control, but this way we can go too deep. You know, Goldelico and factory workers may use gasoline that was extracted in bad ways to get themselves to work ;) But at least we can ensure that what we do and what we can control is done in ethically proper way. And that's something we can be proud of (or, actually, Golden Delicious, as that's their achievement ;)). I'm more worried about suggestions for buying and ordering over the page. We should think about describing our situation (you know, train waiting for green lights ;)) in a way that will be informative and true, but at the same time won't scary people (ouch, another preorder fraud, nothing to see here). I have some fancy slider in mind that would show estimated price depending on demand, but I'm open for different ideas. And one more thing: I'd be very grateful if some native speaker would check what I wrote on the page. I'm not confident enough about my English skills - they might be good enough for communication, but probably not for marketing purposes :) -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak, dos http://dosowisko.net/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
For the GTA04 adapter board you are already distributing the files that Bob Ham is asking for (AFAICT - not an EE). http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/42/ The adapter board license (CC-BY-SA) is more friendly than the GTA04 board license (CC-BY-NC-SA). So I'm wondering about the difference between the two. -- bye, pabs ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)
Am 24.08.2013 um 22:08 schrieb Paul Wise: For the GTA04 adapter board you are already distributing the files that Bob Ham is asking for (AFAICT - not an EE). http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/42/ The adapter board license (CC-BY-SA) is more friendly than the GTA04 board license (CC-BY-NC-SA). So I'm wondering about the difference between the two. the idea is that anyone can even use the adaptor board blueprint even commercially to allow for the best widespread use. It will be dramatically modified anyways for a real product so there is no need to restrict it in any way. For the PDF the licence is NC. But note that this licence only includes the copyright of the document. Not the board. Like you can learn from a book and use the contents. NC because it requires any commercial use to contact us. Commercial use means that someone wants to copy parts e.g. into a textbook. This does not preclude any licence and use, but allows to think to ask for some charge for the benefit of the project. Hope this explains the reasons of the different licenses. Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone
On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 14:22:55 +0200 Radek Polak pson...@seznam.cz wrote: And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent tried newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem. I'm starting to think the the re-enumeration could be an omap-usb problem. I turned off a couple of power-saving features and the rate at which my modem reenumerates went way down. Sometimes the the modem disappears and comes back. Sometimes it disappears and doesn't come back. In those cases if I rmmod the relevant modules and modprobe them again it sometimes comes back and sometimes doesn't. When rmmod/modprobe doesn't work, a reboot does. But the reboot doesn't remove power from the modem so just resets the omap. So it seems that the problem must be in the omap-usb driver. At the very least if we could get it to reset the connection to the same level as a reboot resets it, then we should be able to improve reliability. Oh, and by the way: Don't rfkill block wwan :-( It doesn't actually cause the modem to stop transmitting, but it does cause it to be behave very badly in intermittent ways. My phone had been very unstable for quite a while and I eventually traced it to an rfkill block all that I had in my startup scripts. Removing that helped a lot. NeilBrown signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Modem reenummerating (was: Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone)
Am 24.08.2013 23:04, schrieb NeilBrown: On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 14:22:55 Radek Polak pson...@seznam.cz wrote: And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent tried newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem. I'm starting to think the the re-enumeration could be an omap-usb problem. I turned off a couple of power-saving features and the rate at which my modem reenumerates went way down. Sometimes the the modem Hmm could this by any chance have something to do with the infamous Linux-USB problem, recently pointed out by Sarah Sharp? http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.usb.general/93288 disappears and comes back. Sometimes it disappears and doesn't come back. In those cases if I rmmod the relevant modules and modprobe them again it sometimes comes back and sometimes doesn't. When rmmod/modprobe doesn't work, a reboot does. But the reboot doesn't remove power from the modem so just resets the omap. So it seems that the problem must be in the omap-usb driver. At the very least if we could get it to reset the connection to the same level as a reboot resets it, then we should be able to improve reliability. Oh, and by the way: Don't rfkill block wwan :-( It doesn't actually cause the modem to stop transmitting, but it does cause it to be behave very badly in intermittent ways. My phone had been very unstable for quite a while and I eventually traced it to an rfkill block all that I had in my startup scripts. Removing that helped a lot. BR, Lukas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Going outside - GTA04 website
Am 24.08.2013 21:36, schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak: On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Am 24.08.2013 um 18:11 schrieb Lukas Märdian: Am 24.08.2013 17:36, schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak: I've also created quick draft by myself: http://dosowisko.net/gta04/ Wow, that looks good! Almost like a kickstarter project page :) If can, I vote for this one to become the new website for GTA04. The first impression is the most importent one! This site is presenting only few facts. If the visitor is interested in, it should be possible to find appropriate links to more details! The actual GTA04 pages can be a little bit confusing for first time visitors. Maybe this new site is a good starting point to reanimate marketing/ publicity I hope so... -- Regards Sebastian Reinhardt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [Community] Going outside - GTA04 website
Great job for your website ! I think, it could be good too to have a different page on GD shop for the wish lists : https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04 The actual page has a lot of informations which can be found in the GTA04 documentation already pointed by the new website proposal. So I want to suggest to point the new website on a similar shop web page, but one without so much informations and with the four wish lists (GTA04, CaseKit, Camera, Battery). The actual informations could be replaced by links on the gta04 wiki to give a better view of the wish lists. I understand that to sell some product it's important to clearly explain what is inside the product, that's why I want to keep actual page for the shop and I suggest to add another one simplified for the wish list. So, with two different page, we can modify actual new web site interested box by having two links : * I want one ! : link to the actual detailed page * Show your interest ! : link to the wish lists page Regards, Adrien PS : on both web page, they'll be the same wish list, the new one will be to just simplify the access to the wish lists. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Modem reenummerating (was: Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone)
On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 23:24:29 +0200 Lukas Märdian l...@slyon.de wrote: Am 24.08.2013 23:04, schrieb NeilBrown: On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 14:22:55 Radek Polak pson...@seznam.cz wrote: And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent tried newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem. I'm starting to think the the re-enumeration could be an omap-usb problem. I turned off a couple of power-saving features and the rate at which my modem reenumerates went way down. Sometimes the the modem Hmm could this by any chance have something to do with the infamous Linux-USB problem, recently pointed out by Sarah Sharp? http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.usb.general/93288 Certainly worth testing - thanks for the link! NeilBrown signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
