Shipping other than UPS

[Hans van der Merwe]

Is it possible to get the phones shipped with anyone other than UPS?

The fact that the shipping to South Africa is $148.97 and the phone is
$300 just makes it impossible to order (this excl taxes etc).
And with the Oct Phase 2 phone going for $450 + whatever taxes, shipping
etc on-top to get it to SA this phone is going to be a no-go in this
country.

Whats wrong with plain ol USPS?

ps. are the phones shipped from US or Taiwan?




E-Mail disclaimer:
http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm

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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Torfinn Ingolfsen]

On 7/17/07, Clare Johnstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Jonathon, How would you manage when there are a lot of names? My
phone is also
my phone book, and has pages of names in small print. This is why I


Hmm, looking at my current phone (which has a keyboard below the
(small) display, this is what I see when I open the phone book:
- a few names (in alphabetical order)
- an input line

when you start writing , for example a 't', it starts showing the
names that start with a 't' and so on.

So, if you could use half (or less) of the Neo's screen for a
keyboard, you could have your list of names above that. Obviously, on
the Neo, each user should be able to configure hers or his own
preference on how the names should be displayed and sorted.

The spinner has already been suggested by others.

One more thing; the stylus. some people like it, others don't. People
who want the stylus should think about a creative way to make sure
that the stylus can be carried with the phone.
If you carry your Neo in a pouch / case of some sort, there could
perhaps be a pocket for the stylus.
Perhaps somebody could devise a clever way to attach the stylus to the lanyard?
--
Torfinn

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Re: Hardware/Software UI Relationship

[Torfinn Ingolfsen]

On 7/17/07, Lars Hallberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The QUERTY keyboard is 14 keys wide on a 55mm wide screen (and it has
bevels). That makes 3.9 mm per key. It's a bit painful, but I use it
with fingers all the time (fingernails rather). Keys twice that size
should work just fine.


Although the phone I currently use has physical keys, they are 4.8 mm
x 5.0 mm. It felt cramped the first days, but works ok after that,
even with fingers. :-)
--
Torfinn

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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Daniel Robinson]

Let's make it work first.

On 7/16/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Giles Jones wrote:
>
> On 16 Jul 2007, at 19:49, Ryan Prior wrote:
>
>> I like the tagline "Your phone, your way." The idea is that we are
>> putting the consumer in control - this line may mean different things
>> to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in with the
>> spirit of freedom.
>>
>
> Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the
> software being there and working. Good planing is needed in the
> development stage as well as at the point where you sell the product :)
>
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>

I like the "MyPhone" and  "Your Phone" ideas the best so far.  Of
course, "MyPhone" is already taken as a current phone product.  One idea
would be to leave the word "phone" off all together, since that is kind
of redundant.  Make the tag name be something that's defines itself,
like Google did.

Regardless of the final tag name, I can see the end of the OpenMoko
commercialSean Moss Pultz sort of off center camera with a stark
white background (a la Apple commercials).Sean answers his Neo then
extends his arm with the face of the Neo filling the camera and says,
"It's for you."

Cheers./lost+found/.Cassj~

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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Jeff Andros]

On 7/16/07, Giles Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



I can't answer for jonathon, but there are many ways to deal with it.
Groups, timeline (recently contacted people), searches (enter partial
name), visual search (photo contacts), male/female, region/city, hell
you could even plot them on a map and touch a city (I've been using
my Nintendo Wii too much lol).



I really like this contextual approach(maybe it means you need to use your
wii more? ) I can think of a lot of times where I was trying to remember
someone's name, plus it would help when you're looking back through your
phonebook, and you've got a lot of people who you don't know who they are
(I've got a few that I remember were important, but can't for the life of me
remember why)

A few of the above have never been implemented in any device, I just

think they're good ideas :)

>   I don't altogether understand the
> rationale of insisting on
> fingers when there are so many pixels which can present easily read
> detail.

Styluses get dropped, fall apart etc. Have you ever bought an mp3
player that used a stylus? nope, yet you manage to navigate through
music with one.



To try to bring everyone together, isn't this what the spinner is for? if
you cart around your stylus, or are really precise with your thumbnail, you
can touch the contact you want, otherwise, just scroll with the spinner ala
ipod


Also I don't understand why there is so much emphasis on a
> mass market which is already well catered
> for; possibly to the detriment of the niche market which wants a lot
> of functionality fom the
> device. This little phone should be able to replace the laptop a lot
> of the time, taking notes
> in meetings for example (which i already do on my phone, small and
> above all quiet.)
> The improvement with the neo will be the easy transfer of such files
> to the PC(linux).

It's called being ambitious and making a difference. The same could
be said about Linux but there's a lot of people who want to see it
have greater marketshare. The greater marketshare the easier it is to
convince hardware vendors to provide Linux support.



you really think the mass market is well catered to?   Personally, I think
they just put up with a lot of crap from their cellphones because "that's
just how phones are".  I was told by a t-mobile(then voicestream) service
person that since my old nokia was like a "little computer" I could expect
to re-boot it regularly (I tried to explain the falsehood there... then I
walked away).  It's not the mass market that's catered to, it's the telecom
operators.  Putting on my pragmatic hat, if we open this up to the mass
market, make it something everyone wants, we get the money to make more
devices: Imagine where the apple newton would be if they'd had the cash to
keep evolving... Sean is a really good guy, but I don't think he's willing
to keep pouring his money into this for years, putting himself into the
poorhouse, and his employees with him, just because he has a really cool
device... our little community just isn't enough to keep a hardware company
afloat

--
Jeff
O|||O
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Re: Not "the free phone"

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Giles Jones wrote:


On 16 Jul 2007, at 19:49, Ryan Prior wrote:

I like the tagline "Your phone, your way." The idea is that we are 
putting the consumer in control - this line may mean different things 
to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in with the 
spirit of freedom.




Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the 
software being there and working. Good planing is needed in the 
development stage as well as at the point where you sell the product :)


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I like the "MyPhone" and  "Your Phone" ideas the best so far.  Of 
course, "MyPhone" is already taken as a current phone product.  One idea 
would be to leave the word "phone" off all together, since that is kind 
of redundant.  Make the tag name be something that's defines itself, 
like Google did.


Regardless of the final tag name, I can see the end of the OpenMoko 
commercialSean Moss Pultz sort of off center camera with a stark 
white background (a la Apple commercials).Sean answers his Neo then 
extends his arm with the face of the Neo filling the camera and says, 
"It's for you."


Cheers./lost+found/.Cassj~

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Re: Hardware/Software UI Relationship

[David Duardo]

Your explanation definitely shed some light on the Neo1973 for me.  I
guess the only thing we can do at this point is wait for Sean to make
more hardware announcements.


Dirk Bergstrom wrote:
> At Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:00:06 -0400,David Duardo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> How can the community and FIC work together to have the most cohesive
>> vision between the hardware and software user interfaces?
>> 
>
> As I understand it, the Neo 1973 hardware was originally developed for
> an unspecified FIC customer.  That deal fell through, and somehow
> OpenMoko came onto the scene.  Thus we have this somewhat oddball
> platform.  It wasn't planned this way, it's a happy accident that any
> of this happened at all.
>
> My reading of Sean's announcement is that future hardware platforms
> will be designed in a more collaborative fashion.  I suspect that the
> hardware he talked about for 2008 is probably pretty far along in the
> design cycle by now, but the versions after that are likely to be more
> open.
>
>   


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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Robin Paulson]

On 7/17/07, Marco Barreno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Furthermore, since there isn't a slot in the phone itself for carrying
the stylus, most people won't have the stylus with them all the time.
Personally, I'd prefer to be able to use everything on the phone
without needing the stylus at all, since I don't want to carry one
around and I prefer not having another piece to hold in my hand
anyway.  I bet most users will feel the same way.


putting aside the argument for the moment of whether a stylus is a
good idea or not for controlling the neo, a slot/attachment for the
stylus is one thing i am hoping to implement by way of an aternate
case, as discussed a few weeks back. there is a short piece on the
wiki about alternate cases at:

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_alternate_cases

3D models will be uploaded as soona s i can get my hands on an
existing case to measure it up

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Re: Hardware/Software UI Relationship

[Lars Hallberg]

David Duardo skrev:

This is where I ran into trouble As high resolution as the the LCD is,
it simply is too small to be used with a finger based user interface,
which is what most people would want to use on a cellphone because it is
most convenient. At the upper bound, with the Neo1973, you can have 3
columns by 4 rows of buttons that are of a comfortable size (.5x.5
inch^2). Actually, the buttons can be slightly smaller and more compact,
but I'm estimating for people with slightly bigger fingers. You can see
can see what I mean in the following image:


My current phone have a touch screen and a UI designed for stylus.

The QUERTY keyboard is 14 keys wide on a 55mm wide screen (and it has 
bevels). That makes 3.9 mm per key. It's a bit painful, but I use it 
with fingers all the time (fingernails rather). Keys twice that size 
should work just fine.


5 colums and 7 rows of buttons should be usable on the neo... however a 
clever UI should generally need less... but that's the density I would 
use for text input.


... And my fingers are not huge... but fairly big.

/LaH


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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Marco Barreno]

On Tue, Jul 17, 2007 at 12:16:56AM +0100, thus spake Giles Jones:
> 
> On 17 Jul 2007, at 00:06, Clare Johnstone wrote:
> >
> >Hi Jonathon, How would you manage when there are a lot of names? My
> >phone is also
> >my phone book, and has pages of names in small print. This is why I
> >choose a phone with
> >a good screen and a stylus.
> 
> I can't answer for jonathon, but there are many ways to deal with it.  
> Groups, timeline (recently contacted people), searches (enter partial  
> name), visual search (photo contacts), male/female, region/city, hell  
> you could even plot them on a map and touch a city (I've been using  
> my Nintendo Wii too much lol).

Another idea is to be able to switch modes.  In "finger mode" there
are 3-4 contacts shown at a time with a nice icon, or whatever fits
will and is finger-sized for pressing.  In "stylus-mode" there are
10-15 contacts shown in small text, for easy viewing.

Perhaps this idea could be used more generally in other applications
too.

> >  I don't altogether understand the
> >rationale of insisting on
> >fingers when there are so many pixels which can present easily read
> >detail.
> 
> Styluses get dropped, fall apart etc. Have you ever bought an mp3  
> player that used a stylus? nope, yet you manage to navigate through  
> music with one.

Furthermore, since there isn't a slot in the phone itself for carrying
the stylus, most people won't have the stylus with them all the time.
Personally, I'd prefer to be able to use everything on the phone
without needing the stylus at all, since I don't want to carry one
around and I prefer not having another piece to hold in my hand
anyway.  I bet most users will feel the same way.

I really like the idea of providing a stylus option to fit more data
on the screen or enable condensed dialogue boxes, but also providing a
mode for full functionality with fingers (even if the screen space is
less well utilized in that mode).

> >Also I don't understand why there is so much emphasis on a
> >mass market which is already well catered
> >for; possibly to the detriment of the niche market which wants a lot
> >of functionality fom the
> >device. This little phone should be able to replace the laptop a lot
> >of the time, taking notes
> >in meetings for example (which i already do on my phone, small and
> >above all quiet.)
> >The improvement with the neo will be the easy transfer of such files
> >to the PC(linux).
> 
> It's called being ambitious and making a difference. The same could  
> be said about Linux but there's a lot of people who want to see it  
> have greater marketshare. The greater marketshare the easier it is to  
> convince hardware vendors to provide Linux support.

There's a lot of effort being put into these phones and developing
them undoubtedly costs a lot of money.  I'm not intimately familiar
with the economics of cell phones, but it should be clear that a niche
device will never be able to have the profitability and continuing
support that a mass-market device will.  I don't know how the pricing
was decided on, but a certain number of people will have to buy the
phone before it starts being profitable at all, and then its status as
niche device or mass-market device will surely drive future pricing
and development.

Marco

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Re: Fwd: Not "the free phone"

[Robin Paulson]

On 7/17/07, David Lefty Schlesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Sven wrote:
> I'd call it the tuxphone.
>
Why?

Do you need to be wearing a tuxedo to use it...?

(Yes, _I_ know, and _you_ know, but trust me, Sean will be spending the
next year answering exactly that sort of question.)


and the tuxphone already exists - check out http://hbmobile.org (the
home brew mobile phone club). they are attempting to build a range of
mobile phones and name check openmoko as a suitable OS

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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Giles Jones]

On 17 Jul 2007, at 00:06, Clare Johnstone wrote:


Hi Jonathon, How would you manage when there are a lot of names? My
phone is also
my phone book, and has pages of names in small print. This is why I
choose a phone with
a good screen and a stylus.


I can't answer for jonathon, but there are many ways to deal with it.  
Groups, timeline (recently contacted people), searches (enter partial  
name), visual search (photo contacts), male/female, region/city, hell  
you could even plot them on a map and touch a city (I've been using  
my Nintendo Wii too much lol).


A few of the above have never been implemented in any device, I just  
think they're good ideas :)



  I don't altogether understand the
rationale of insisting on
fingers when there are so many pixels which can present easily read
detail.


Styluses get dropped, fall apart etc. Have you ever bought an mp3  
player that used a stylus? nope, yet you manage to navigate through  
music with one.




Also I don't understand why there is so much emphasis on a
mass market which is already well catered
for; possibly to the detriment of the niche market which wants a lot
of functionality fom the
device. This little phone should be able to replace the laptop a lot
of the time, taking notes
in meetings for example (which i already do on my phone, small and
above all quiet.)
The improvement with the neo will be the easy transfer of such files
to the PC(linux).


It's called being ambitious and making a difference. The same could  
be said about Linux but there's a lot of people who want to see it  
have greater marketshare. The greater marketshare the easier it is to  
convince hardware vendors to provide Linux support.





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Re: Hardware/Software UI Relationship

[Dirk Bergstrom]

At Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:00:06 -0400,David Duardo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How can the community and FIC work together to have the most cohesive
> vision between the hardware and software user interfaces?

As I understand it, the Neo 1973 hardware was originally developed for
an unspecified FIC customer.  That deal fell through, and somehow
OpenMoko came onto the scene.  Thus we have this somewhat oddball
platform.  It wasn't planned this way, it's a happy accident that any
of this happened at all.

My reading of Sean's announcement is that future hardware platforms
will be designed in a more collaborative fashion.  I suspect that the
hardware he talked about for 2008 is probably pretty far along in the
design cycle by now, but the versions after that are likely to be more
open.

-- 
   --
  Dirk Bergstrom   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://otisbean.com/

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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Clare Johnstone]

On 7/16/07, Giles Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Jonathon Suggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :


> For the address book example.  I would prefer to have a list that showed
> only a few names with a large area for each.  When you clicked the name,




The important thing IMHO is to create applications where the base code is 
sound. Insert, Update, Delete, Select contact entries etc..



Hi Jonathon, How would you manage when there are a lot of names? My
phone is also
my phone book, and has pages of names in small print. This is why I
choose a phone with
a good screen and a stylus.  I don't altogether understand the
rationale of insisting on
fingers when there are so many pixels which can present easily read
detail.  Also I don't understand why there is so much emphasis on a
mass market which is already well catered
for; possibly to the detriment of the niche market which wants a lot
of functionality fom the
device. This little phone should be able to replace the laptop a lot
of the time, taking notes
in meetings for example (which i already do on my phone, small and
above all quiet.)
The improvement with the neo will be the easy transfer of such files
to the PC(linux).

clare


---
G O Jones





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Re: shipping?

[Giles Jones]

On 16 Jul 2007, at 23:00, Daniel Robinson wrote:

I ordered a neo1973 and got an email back, but my bank account has  
not been hit for the money and I haven't heard anything else.


Anyone on this list gotten a neo1973 yet?


Today's apparently the day when they arrive from China. So they won't  
be shipping for a couple of days I guess.





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Re: Fwd: Not "the free phone"

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Sven wrote:
> I'd call it the tuxphone.
>   
Why?

Do you need to be wearing a tuxedo to use it...?

(Yes, _I_ know, and _you_ know, but trust me, Sean will be spending the
next year answering exactly that sort of question.)




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shipping?

[Daniel Robinson]

I ordered a neo1973 and got an email back, but my bank account has not been
hit for the money and I haven't heard anything else.

Anyone on this list gotten a neo1973 yet?

--Dan
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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts -> unleash

[Giles Jones]

On 16 Jul 2007, at 22:13, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:


On 7/16/07, Eric Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Unleash your phone.


Neo 1973 : phone - and more
OpenMoko : not just a phone


Neo 1973 - The phone you truly own.



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Re: Not "the free phone"

[David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger]

Giles Jones wrote:
> Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the
> software being there and working.
Oh, finally. Thanks, Giles. I'd have to say that "academic" is an
understatement: if you actually sold one to someone who wasn't capable
of building and installing a Linux system on the device, and wasn't
aware that the software was incomplete and unstable, you'd be doing them
a serious disservice if you created the impression that this was a phone
on which they'd be able to rely on a day-to-day basis.

I have no idea who folks are hoping to market this phone to in this
fashion. If you're going after "the open source community", you can
count on selling dozens; maybe even scores. But there's no way that this
device can be marketed to _real_ end-users until the software is in a
substantially more solid state.

On average, folks who buy cell phones are not likely to buy one based on
the notion that one provides more "liberty"--they'll have no idea what
you're talking about, and if you attempt to explain it, they'll _still_
have no idea what you're talking about. In fact, you're going to have to
work harder to sell an unlocked phone to folks (at least in the States,
where such things are pretty rare) at all--it's actually _less_
convenient for them, in that they're going to have to go through a
run-around with some carrier or other to get service.

Even the "Your phone, your way" message is quite misleading. I haven't
attempted to get a naked SIM card from, say, AT&T, but I bet they're not
especially well set-up to handle requests like that. It's even possible
that they might refuse to do it at all: carriers have requirements for
the devices which use their networks, and they might well insist that
you obtain _some_ phone from them to surround your SIM card with.

_Now_ your big marketing challenge becomes explaining to my grandma why
she needs to get a _different_ phone in order to use _this_ phone. All
of this "freedom" talk is both off the mark, as well as beside the
point, in my opinion.

The best thing people can do to make this all a reality is to help out
with the software development, if they're able to.


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Re: Fwd: Not "the free phone"

[Sven]

> ok, why not something totaly different from free, freedom and open?

I'd call it the tuxphone.

br


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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts -> unleash

[Torfinn Ingolfsen]

On 7/16/07, Eric Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Unleash your phone.


Neo 1973 : phone - and more
OpenMoko : not just a phone
--
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen,
Norway

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Not "the free phone"

[Ken Young]

How 'bout

"For those who prefer JTAG to Bluetooth."  or
"It's not just a phone, it's a hobby." or
"Get one before the phone companies figure out what they are."


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Brainstorm: less functionality per device, more devices

[Francis Pimenta]

hi,

Something like that:: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4033319254.html



best regards 

Francis




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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts -> unleash

[Eric Smith]

Unleash your phone.


Original Message Shawn Rutledge on Mon-16-Jul 07  8:24PM
> >A consumer ad campaign is NOT the place to push the "free as in beer vs
> >free as in speech" argument. The phrase "free phone" already means the
> >opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on.
> >
> >Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The
> >Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know.
> >

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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Shawn Rutledge]

I thought of that too but don't see it as a problem.  Still seems like
a euphonious name to me.

On 7/16/07, Marc-Olivier Barre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 7/16/07, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How about simply the youPhone, or uPhone?
>

First thing I thought about when I saw youPhone was youTube... it
seems a bit to obvious, sorry.
__
Marc-Olivier Barre.

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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Giles Jones]

On 16 Jul 2007, at 20:16, Ryan Prior wrote:

That is absolutely true! No amount of marketing to non-techies will  
help until we have a solid software stack which includes UI  
responsiveness and a tested user interface. The idea is not to  
start a ad campaign immediately -- the idea is to be ready when the  
time for advertising comes!


Speaking of which, does anybody from FIC's marketing division read  
this list? If not, perhaps we could invite somebody?


Not to mention this device is potentially  a lot more than just a  
phone, if done right it can be your media player, your co-pilot and  
your communicator.




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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Tim Newsom]

OK.. Great minds think alike... Or maybe not. /grin

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:11, Shawn Rutledge wrote:

How about simply the youPhone, or uPhone?

On 7/16/07, Ian Darwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 I completely agree. My idea is to make two advertisment campains: 
one on

 "maisntream media": maybe tv, maybe radio, flyre, poster, newspapers,
 wathever.  This ads would be something like: "The free phone, 
OpenMoko.

 The only one with " "The OpenMoko: now with builtin navigator" and
 so on. Don't even THINK of using "based on Linux Kernel 2.6.xx" or 
"With

 powerful ssh acess"


Calling it "the free(d) phone" to consumers (as opposed to developers)
is going to engender an enormous amount of confusion and ill-will.

Why? Because (at least in North America) the major carriers have spent
years, and billions of dollars, totally subverting the meaning of the
phrase "free phone" to mean "we give you the cheapest phone we can find
and don't charge you for this piece of junk when you lock into a two- 
or
three-year plan at some exorbitant rate that obviously includes the 
cost

of the phone amortized."

Seriously, ask consumers what a "free phone" means. at least 11 out of
10 will give you the definition above, at least the parts they 
understand.


A consumer ad campaign is NOT the place to push the "free as in beer vs
free as in speech" argument. The phrase "free phone" already means the
opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move 
on.


Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The
Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know.

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Re: Galileo

[Ian Stirling]

Ewan Oughton wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Ian Stirling wrote:

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#Galileo.2FGLONASS.2FGPS_receiver 





GLONASS?


Isn't that the Soviet GPS-alike that is mostly dead? What's remains of 
it I believe is currently optimised for use in Russian military 
deployments in Chechnya.. Doubt it's going to be a viable tech any time 
soon. Also, finding a chip comparible in size / cost to the Hammerhead 
would be difficult.


It's had new satellites launched recently and commitments have been made 
to bring it fully online well before the completion of Galilleo.


It _was_ decaying rapidly into uselessness only several years ago.

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Re: Fwd: Not "the free phone"

[Tim Newsom]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 11:28, Daniel Bartholomew wrote:


Well, since Apple has gone iThis and iThat with everything and dropped
their use of PowerThis and PowerThat, why not co-opt that?

How would you like a PowerPhone?

--
Daniel Bartholomew


Well, in a similar vein (throwing in my own silly thoughts..) Why not 
call it the UPhone...


UPhone.. Make it what you want it to be...
UPhone.. Its your phone, do what you want with it..
UPhone.. What do U want on it?

Lol.. Ok, very silly.
--Tim

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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Ryan Prior]

That is absolutely true! No amount of marketing to non-techies will help
until we have a solid software stack which includes UI responsiveness and a
tested user interface. The idea is not to start a ad campaign immediately --
the idea is to be ready when the time for advertising comes!

Speaking of which, does anybody from FIC's marketing division read this
list? If not, perhaps we could invite somebody?

On 7/16/07, Giles Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On 16 Jul 2007, at 19:49, Ryan Prior wrote:

> I like the tagline "Your phone, your way." The idea is that we are
> putting the consumer in control - this line may mean different
> things to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in
> with the spirit of freedom.
>

Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the
software being there and working. Good planing is needed in the
development stage as well as at the point where you sell the product :)

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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Robbt]

I like the free phone, what about "the really free phone".
   I'm not sure beyond amusement if there is a lot of purposefor us
trying to figure out how to market the phone to non-geeks. What will
really get people to want it is awesome free software that they can
install with a few clicks and not have to pay for every little cheezy
app someone develops, or  huge phone bills for silly ringtones.

 But I also wanted to know if everyone was hip to what is happening in
congress with "the iphone hearings".
 Basically some people in Congress were realizing how not having freedom
to choose carriers etc was potentially screwing customers if they can
only use ATT etc.

 Check out the Freepress site at http://freetheiphone.org
 Here is a youtube video with some clips of the congressional debate.

 I think this is relevant considering that OpenMoko is more than less the
free iphone and even if you could choose your carriers, your phone still
isn't "free". But it's still interesting to see wireless freedom being
debated in congress.

Robbt



 Ryan Prior wrote: I like the tagline "Your phone, your way." The idea is
that we are putting the consumer in control - this line may mean
different things to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in
with the spirit of freedom.

   On 7/16/07, Mike  wrote:

 Ian Darwin wrote:
 > Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The
Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know.
 >

 How about "The Freedom Phone".



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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Giles Jones]

On 16 Jul 2007, at 19:49, Ryan Prior wrote:

I like the tagline "Your phone, your way." The idea is that we are  
putting the consumer in control - this line may mean different  
things to a techie and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in  
with the spirit of freedom.




Maybe, but then I think all the marketing is academic without the  
software being there and working. Good planing is needed in the  
development stage as well as at the point where you sell the product :)


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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Monday 16 July 2007 20:24:18 Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> How about simply the youPhone, or uPhone?
>
u is often short for the Greek letter \mu (in Latex notation) which in turn is 
used as a sign for micro in many places. That may confuse people as it might 
mean microphone then?


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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Ryan Prior]

I like the tagline "Your phone, your way." The idea is that we are putting
the consumer in control - this line may mean different things to a techie
and non-techie, but that's okay - it ties in with the spirit of freedom.

On 7/16/07, Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:




Ian Darwin wrote:
> Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The
> Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know.
>

How about "The Freedom Phone".



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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Marc-Olivier Barre]

On 7/16/07, Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

How about simply the youPhone, or uPhone?



First thing I thought about when I saw youPhone was youTube... it
seems a bit to obvious, sorry.
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Re: Fwd: Not "the free phone"

[Shakthi Kannan]

Hi,

As on date, when you own a phone, even though it is 'your' phone, it
is branded as company X or Y phone.

If you go to country F, you see people using mostly only phones from
company N, because it is owned in country F.

If you go to country S, you see people using mostly only phones from
company E, because it is owned in country S. [1]

But, OpenMoko is beyond all those boundaries. It gives you the ability
to call it really your own phone. So, why not call it as "MyPhone",
and brand it as "My Phone" in the native language of every country.

Examples:

US, UK: MyPhone
China: 我电话 (wǒ diàn huà)
India (Tamil): என்தொலைபேசி

Regards,

SK

[1] Based on observation. No statistics.

--
Shakthi Kannan
http://www.shakthimaan.com
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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Shawn Rutledge]

How about simply the youPhone, or uPhone?

On 7/16/07, Ian Darwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> I completely agree. My idea is to make two advertisment campains: one on
> "maisntream media": maybe tv, maybe radio, flyre, poster, newspapers,
> wathever.  This ads would be something like: "The free phone, OpenMoko.
> The only one with " "The OpenMoko: now with builtin navigator" and
> so on. Don't even THINK of using "based on Linux Kernel 2.6.xx" or "With
> powerful ssh acess"

Calling it "the free(d) phone" to consumers (as opposed to developers)
is going to engender an enormous amount of confusion and ill-will.

Why? Because (at least in North America) the major carriers have spent
years, and billions of dollars, totally subverting the meaning of the
phrase "free phone" to mean "we give you the cheapest phone we can find
and don't charge you for this piece of junk when you lock into a two- or
three-year plan at some exorbitant rate that obviously includes the cost
of the phone amortized."

Seriously, ask consumers what a "free phone" means. at least 11 out of
10 will give you the definition above, at least the parts they understand.

A consumer ad campaign is NOT the place to push the "free as in beer vs
free as in speech" argument. The phrase "free phone" already means the
opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on.

Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The
Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know.

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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Mickael Faivre-Macon]

Everybody here emphasises on this OSS concept, but I think like
Marc-Olivier, that we do not need to  speak about OSS at all.

This phone will update its software automatically, bugs will not live
more than 3 days, it's skins will be customizable, every piece of
software you do not use will be removable to gain memory for your mp3,
etc.. etc... Where is the OSS concept for a end user here ? *You* know
that bugs will be quickly corrected because you are a developper, not
everybody. We do not care if it's open, we care about the features
other phones do not have.

Let's find something without "free" in it. Exercice left to the reader :)

On 7/16/07, Marc-Olivier Barre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Damn... hit reply, needed reply-to all ;-)

-- Forwarded message --
From: Marc-Olivier Barre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Jul 16, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Not "the free phone"
To: Dirk Bergstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


On 7/16/07, Dirk Bergstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Pius A. Uzamere II wrote:
> > I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite
> > conclusion!  I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US.
>
> The set of people who would want a "Freedom Phone" probably does not
> have much overlap with the set of people who would want an open source
> phone.
>
> "Freedom", at least in the US, has been even more violently co-opted
> than than "free phone"...
>

ok, why not something totaly different from free, freedom and open?

__
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Re: Not "the free phone"

[kent]

How about "Your Own Phone", or maybe just "Your Phone", meaning that you 
really own it?  

Regarding "reply-to" munging -- don't want to revisit this ancient debate, 
but -- please don't :-)

Best Regards
Kent

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Re: Fwd: Not "the free phone"

[Daniel Bartholomew]

On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 19:56 +0200, Marc-Olivier Barre wrote:
> On 7/16/07, Dirk Bergstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Pius A. Uzamere II wrote:
> > > I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite
> > > conclusion!  I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US.
> >
> > The set of people who would want a "Freedom Phone" probably does not
> > have much overlap with the set of people who would want an open source
> > phone.
> >
> > "Freedom", at least in the US, has been even more violently co-opted
> > than than "free phone"...
> >
> 
> ok, why not something totaly different from free, freedom and open?

Well, since Apple has gone iThis and iThat with everything and dropped
their use of PowerThis and PowerThat, why not co-opt that?

How would you like a PowerPhone?

-- 
Daniel Bartholomew




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RE: Not "the free phone"

[John Seghers]

Dirk Bergstrom wrote:
> 
> Ian Darwin wrote:
> > The phrase "free phone" already means the
> > opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on.
> 
> Ugh, Ian's right.  That phrase has been violently co-opted by the
> carriers.  Much as I like "The free(d) phone", I don't think we can use
> that anywhere outside the geek community.
> 

Furthermore, unless you are in a free WiFi area and using a VOIP provider,
you're still paying for service.  Most of service plans cost the same
whether you provide your own equipment or not... therefore equating the cost
of service over the lifetime of the phone to the cost of the phone is not a
valid comparison.

However, something like "It's your phone, use it your way" is likely the
better avenue.

- John



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Fwd: Not "the free phone"

[Marc-Olivier Barre]

Damn... hit reply, needed reply-to all ;-)

-- Forwarded message --
From: Marc-Olivier Barre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Jul 16, 2007 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Not "the free phone"
To: Dirk Bergstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


On 7/16/07, Dirk Bergstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Pius A. Uzamere II wrote:
> I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite
> conclusion!  I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US.

The set of people who would want a "Freedom Phone" probably does not
have much overlap with the set of people who would want an open source
phone.

"Freedom", at least in the US, has been even more violently co-opted
than than "free phone"...



ok, why not something totaly different from free, freedom and open?

__
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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Visti Andresen]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:20:24 -0700
Dirk Bergstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mike wrote:
> > How about "The Freedom Phone".
> 
> Makes me think of American flags and jingoistic phrases.  Probably a 
> non-starter in the US...

Yes "Freedom" has a slightly bitter taste these days...

How about "The Liberated Phone", or dos it taste too Cuban?

Perhaps a different name different locations ;o)

"The Phone" for "The Matrix" tm.
"The One Phone" for Mddle-earth.
"The Next Generation Phone" for "Star Trek" tm conventions.
"The True Phone" for religious occasions.

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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Pius A. Uzamere II]

We definitely don't want to get into politics here.  :D

All I'll say is that the people who want an open source phone will "get it"
as soon as they hear that the phone will run their own apps.  It's the
non-technical people to whom we'll need to make a case.

On 7/16/07, Dirk Bergstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Pius A. Uzamere II wrote:
> I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the
opposite
> conclusion!  I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US.

The set of people who would want a "Freedom Phone" probably does not
have much overlap with the set of people who would want an open source
phone.

"Freedom", at least in the US, has been even more violently co-opted
than than "free phone"...

But let us not venture into unpleasant political territory.

--
Dirk

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Re: Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Vincent]

On 16/07/07, Ian Darwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



> I completely agree. My idea is to make two advertisment campains: one on
> "maisntream media": maybe tv, maybe radio, flyre, poster, newspapers,
> wathever.  This ads would be something like: "The free phone, OpenMoko.
> The only one with " "The OpenMoko: now with builtin navigator" and
> so on. Don't even THINK of using "based on Linux Kernel 2.6.xx" or "With
> powerful ssh acess"

Calling it "the free(d) phone" to consumers (as opposed to developers)
is going to engender an enormous amount of confusion and ill-will.

Why? Because (at least in North America) the major carriers have spent
years, and billions of dollars, totally subverting the meaning of the
phrase "free phone" to mean "we give you the cheapest phone we can find
and don't charge you for this piece of junk when you lock into a two- or
three-year plan at some exorbitant rate that obviously includes the cost
of the phone amortized."

Seriously, ask consumers what a "free phone" means. at least 11 out of
10 will give you the definition above, at least the parts they understand.

A consumer ad campaign is NOT the place to push the "free as in beer vs
free as in speech" argument. The phrase "free phone" already means the
opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on.

Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The
Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know.




The "you're in control-phone"? :P

Anyway, it would be weird calling it *the* free phone anyway, as I assume
the Neo won't be the only OpenMoko-powered phone.

--
Vincent
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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Monday 16 July 2007 19:19:49 Mike wrote:
> Ian Darwin wrote:
> > Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The
> > Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know.
>
> How about "The Freedom Phone".
>
How about centering around liberty instead of free (which has way too many 
connotations) and freedom (which is clearer, but I doubt it will work in 
Europe after the freedom fries stuff)?


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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Dirk Bergstrom]

Pius A. Uzamere II wrote:

I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite
conclusion!  I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US.


The set of people who would want a "Freedom Phone" probably does not 
have much overlap with the set of people who would want an open source 
phone.


"Freedom", at least in the US, has been even more violently co-opted 
than than "free phone"...


But let us not venture into unpleasant political territory.

--
Dirk

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Re: WINNING NOTIFICATION...CONTACT YOUR CLAIMS AGENT IMMEDIATELY!..

[Bryce Leo]

LMAO go to that website look at the motto of the hosting provider
that's advertised!!!

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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Pius A. Uzamere II]

I agree with your first sentence, but came up with precisely the opposite
conclusion!  I think Freedom Phone would work extremely well in the US.

On 7/16/07, Dirk Bergstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Mike wrote:
> How about "The Freedom Phone".

Makes me think of American flags and jingoistic phrases.  Probably a
non-starter in the US...

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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Dirk Bergstrom]

Ian Darwin wrote:
The phrase "free phone" already means the 
opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on.


Ugh, Ian's right.  That phrase has been violently co-opted by the 
carriers.  Much as I like "The free(d) phone", I don't think we can use 
that anywhere outside the geek community.


I suspect that few, if any, of us are going to be able to figure out how 
to advertise this phone to a non-geek.  Hopefully FIC has some 
traditional marketing fu up their sleeve...


--
Dirk

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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Dirk Bergstrom]

Mike wrote:

How about "The Freedom Phone".


Makes me think of American flags and jingoistic phrases.  Probably a 
non-starter in the US...


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Re: Not "the free phone"

[Mike]

Ian Darwin wrote:
Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The 
Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know.




How about "The Freedom Phone".



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Not "the free phone" (was: Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Ian Darwin]

I completely agree. My idea is to make two advertisment campains: one on 
"maisntream media": maybe tv, maybe radio, flyre, poster, newspapers, 
wathever.  This ads would be something like: "The free phone, OpenMoko. 
The only one with " "The OpenMoko: now with builtin navigator" and 
so on. Don't even THINK of using "based on Linux Kernel 2.6.xx" or "With 
powerful ssh acess"


Calling it "the free(d) phone" to consumers (as opposed to developers) 
is going to engender an enormous amount of confusion and ill-will.


Why? Because (at least in North America) the major carriers have spent 
years, and billions of dollars, totally subverting the meaning of the 
phrase "free phone" to mean "we give you the cheapest phone we can find 
and don't charge you for this piece of junk when you lock into a two- or 
three-year plan at some exorbitant rate that obviously includes the cost 
of the phone amortized."


Seriously, ask consumers what a "free phone" means. at least 11 out of 
10 will give you the definition above, at least the parts they understand.


A consumer ad campaign is NOT the place to push the "free as in beer vs 
free as in speech" argument. The phrase "free phone" already means the 
opposite of what we want it to mean. It's done, finished, over. Move on.


Call it something else in the consumer market. The Flexible Phone. The 
Does-what-you-want-not-what the big corporations want. I don't know.


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Re: Galileo

[Ewan Oughton]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007, Ian Stirling wrote:


http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#Galileo.2FGLONASS.2FGPS_receiver



GLONASS?


Isn't that the Soviet GPS-alike that is mostly dead? What's remains 
of it I believe is currently optimised for use in Russian military 
deployments in Chechnya.. Doubt it's going to be a viable tech any time 
soon. Also, finding a chip comparible in size / cost to the 
Hammerhead would be difficult.






Ewan


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Re: Galileo

[Ian Stirling]

Mickael Faivre-Macon wrote:

Hi,

Do you know the European GPS called Galileo available in 2008 ?
I do not know this technology (GPS) and I wonder if the two are
compatible and if having a AGPS chip ("Hammerhead") enable the Neo to
receive Galileo information. It's not really openmoko related, I know.
Just wondering.



http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#Galileo.2FGLONASS.2FGPS_receiver

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Re: Galileo

[Mikko Rauhala]

ma, 2007-07-16 kello 17:09 +0200, Mickael Faivre-Macon kirjoitti:
> Do you know the European GPS called Galileo available in 2008 ?
> I do not know this technology (GPS) and I wonder if the two are
> compatible and if having a AGPS chip ("Hammerhead") enable the Neo to
> receive Galileo information.

No.

There have been combined GPS/Galileo chip(set)s announced, but the
Hammerhead isn't one. Something for the future of OpenMoko devices, one
dares suppose. Not really something to pay extra money/space/etc for
when launching a new product line now, considering GPS manages quite
fine and Galileo isn't here yet.

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>


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Re: Galileo

[Giles Jones]

Mickael Faivre-Macon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :

> Hi,
> 
> Do you know the European GPS called Galileo available in 2008 ?
> I do not know this technology (GPS) and I wonder if the two are
> compatible and if having a AGPS chip ("Hammerhead") enable the Neo to
> receive Galileo information. It's not really openmoko related, I know.
> Just wondering.

AFAIK the two technologies are incompatible at this stage. 

There's news that it won't be live until 2014 anyway (only one satellite has 
been launched). So I wouldn't think there's any rush to look into it.

---
G O Jones





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Re: Galileo

[Al Johnson]

On Monday 16 July 2007 16:09, Mickael Faivre-Macon wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Do you know the European GPS called Galileo available in 2008 ?

If they ever get the funding sorted out - see 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/05/galileo_commons_debate/ and related 
stories at the bottom of the page. I don't think they've even launched a test 
constellation yet. I wouldn't expect any current navigation chipset to 
support it at this stage.

> I do not know this technology (GPS) and I wonder if the two are
> compatible and if having a AGPS chip ("Hammerhead") enable the Neo to
> receive Galileo information. It's not really openmoko related, I know. 
> Just wondering.
>
> Best regards,
> Mickael

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Re: gentoo qemu (was Re: Binary tarball of toolchain/build environment)

[Sudharshan S]

On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 09:09 -0500, Jeff Rush wrote:

> > 
> > I have both too, and use gcc-config to switch when emerging qemu. If I 
> > select 
> > 3.4.6 with gcc-config then run 'make qemu' mtn complains:
> > mtn: /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.6/libstdc++.so.6: 
> > version 'GLIBCXX_3.4.6' not found (required by mtn)
> > mtn: /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.6/libstdc++.so.6: 
> > version 'CXXABI_1.3.1' not found (required by mtn)
> > Makefile: 28: *** Cannot determine version for monotone using "mtn 
> > -version". 
> > Stop.
> 
> Hmm, the interesting thing there is that monotone requires a *double* dash 
> for 
> long options, so manually doing "mtn -version" will indeed fail.  In my 
> Makefile re the MokoMakefile, I have it with a double dash:
> 
>MTN_VERSION := $(shell mtn --version | awk '{ print $$2; }')
> 
> ... in case this helps at all.  I don't see any way to determine the version 
> of Makefile I have.
> 
> -Jeff
Hi all,
Running gentoo here, I worked around this issue by re-emerging monotone
with gcc 3.4.6, I am not sure if its the right solution. But atleast it
solves the problem at hand

Regards
Sudharshan S

P.S: To the list maintainer, can you configure a reply-to munging such
that when i hit reply the mail gets sent to the lists instead of the OP.




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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Giles Jones]

Jonathon Suggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :


> For the address book example.  I would prefer to have a list that showed 
> only a few names with a large area for each.  When you clicked the name, 
> it would pop-up (again large buttons) the actions that you could take 
> (Dial, SMS, Email, Edit/Other).  Extra clicks aren't always bad if they 
> are well defined and easy to use even at a glance.
> 
> -Jonathon

The important thing IMHO is to create applications where the base code is 
sound. Insert, Update, Delete, Select contact entries etc.. 

With these reliable functions in a library all sorts of experimental interfaces 
could be developed. I'm sure this sort of thing is being developed already.

---
G O Jones





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Galileo

[Mickael Faivre-Macon]

Hi,

Do you know the European GPS called Galileo available in 2008 ?
I do not know this technology (GPS) and I wonder if the two are
compatible and if having a AGPS chip ("Hammerhead") enable the Neo to
receive Galileo information. It's not really openmoko related, I know.
Just wondering.

Best regards,
Mickael

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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Jonathon Suggs]

Giles Jones wrote:
If you minimise the time using the stylus then you eliminate a huge 
section of the public who don't want to use a stylus (yes I know the 
Nintendo DS has one and has sold 40 million ;)). I would say the main 
reason for using the stylus is drawing lines.


Using fingers to touch is less precise, but you could have an 
interface that zooms, touch and hold an area to zoom that area, you 
can then touch more accurately the item you want. Would be possible 
with the additional 3D hardware in the consumer hardware.
*Most* of the application should be completely navigable fingers only, 
because people are much more likely (at least I know I am) to be on the 
go while using their phone.  Whereas when people are playing a game 
(Nintendo DS), they would be more likely to be stationary and willing to 
take the time to take out and use the stylus.


I think it takes a little bit of extra time and effort to design for a 
mobile (finger only) application.  However, less IS more.  Fewer but 
larger (and intuitive) buttons.  I don't mind going through a couple of 
screens if it is clear what I am doing.


For the address book example.  I would prefer to have a list that showed 
only a few names with a large area for each.  When you clicked the name, 
it would pop-up (again large buttons) the actions that you could take 
(Dial, SMS, Email, Edit/Other).  Extra clicks aren't always bad if they 
are well defined and easy to use even at a glance.


-Jonathon


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Order Status

[C. Duncan Hudson]

I placed my order the first day that they were (supposedly) available 
online.  Of course, I wasn't offered a color choice - but that's not an 
issue as I was just getting it to begin developing an employee time 
tracking application.  Anyways, I still have not received a confirmation 
email.  Nor have I received a respond 'YES_I_DO' email.  Is there anyway 
to confirm orders?  Is (will there be) an order status / tracking 
webpage?  Do I just create another order and risk getting multiple units?


Dunc

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Re: gentoo qemu (was Re: Binary tarball of toolchain/build environment)

[Jeff Rush]

Al Johnson wrote:

On Monday 16 July 2007 11:38, Jeff Rush wrote:

Al Johnson wrote:

I was going to suggest this too. This is the approach taken for the
Neuros OSD, another linux-based device. It would give a known-working
build and test environment, rather than having potential developers
spending time trying to put such an environment together. Mokomakefile is
good, but I just can't get the qemu to build under gentoo.

A good idea re providing a VM.  BTW, I run Gentoo also and QEMU using
Mokomakefile built with no problems here.  Are you trying to do it with GCC
4.x?  It supposedly is a known bug and you need to use GCC 3.x. 
Fortunately you can have both installed at the same time and use them where

needed.  I have GCC 3.x set as the default compiler.

# equery list gcc
[I--] [ -] sys-devel/gcc-3.4.6-r2 (3.4)
[I--] [ -] sys-devel/gcc-4.1.2 (4.1)


I have both too, and use gcc-config to switch when emerging qemu. If I select 
3.4.6 with gcc-config then run 'make qemu' mtn complains:
	mtn: /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.6/libstdc++.so.6: 
version 'GLIBCXX_3.4.6' not found (required by mtn)
	mtn: /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.6/libstdc++.so.6: 
version 'CXXABI_1.3.1' not found (required by mtn)
	Makefile: 28: *** Cannot determine version for monotone using "mtn -version". 
Stop.


Hmm, the interesting thing there is that monotone requires a *double* dash for 
long options, so manually doing "mtn -version" will indeed fail.  In my 
Makefile re the MokoMakefile, I have it with a double dash:


  MTN_VERSION := $(shell mtn --version | awk '{ print $$2; }')

... in case this helps at all.  I don't see any way to determine the version 
of Makefile I have.


-Jeff

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gentoo qemu (was Re: Binary tarball of toolchain/build environment)

[Al Johnson]

On Monday 16 July 2007 11:38, Jeff Rush wrote:
> Al Johnson wrote:
> > I was going to suggest this too. This is the approach taken for the
> > Neuros OSD, another linux-based device. It would give a known-working
> > build and test environment, rather than having potential developers
> > spending time trying to put such an environment together. Mokomakefile is
> > good, but I just can't get the qemu to build under gentoo.
>
> A good idea re providing a VM.  BTW, I run Gentoo also and QEMU using
> Mokomakefile built with no problems here.  Are you trying to do it with GCC
> 4.x?  It supposedly is a known bug and you need to use GCC 3.x. 
> Fortunately you can have both installed at the same time and use them where
> needed.  I have GCC 3.x set as the default compiler.
>
> # equery list gcc
> [I--] [ -] sys-devel/gcc-3.4.6-r2 (3.4)
> [I--] [ -] sys-devel/gcc-4.1.2 (4.1)

I have both too, and use gcc-config to switch when emerging qemu. If I select 
3.4.6 with gcc-config then run 'make qemu' mtn complains:
mtn: /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.6/libstdc++.so.6: 
version 'GLIBCXX_3.4.6' not found (required by mtn)
mtn: /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.6/libstdc++.so.6: 
version 'CXXABI_1.3.1' not found (required by mtn)
Makefile: 28: *** Cannot determine version for monotone using "mtn 
-version". 
Stop.

Keeping gcc-config with 4.1.2 and tweaking Makefile setup-qemu to 
include --cc=gcc-3.4.6 after --target-list=arm-softmmu gets further, but dies 
after a bunch of errors in usb-linux-gadget.c

I have linux-headers-2.6.21 as suggested elsewhere, but it seems not to have 
made any difference. This is on x86 - I've had even less luck on amd64.

>
> -Jeff
>
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Invitation to german the linux event come2linux 10.11.+11.11.2007

[Sven]

Dear OpenMoko Community,

iam very exited about the openmoko phone and just waiting for the release in 
october.

I'd like to ask if there are people in Germany who want to present the openmoko 
phone on our local linux event in Germany.
It's a Linux information event for a weekend, from 10.11. to 11.11.. It is 
taking place in the university of Essen.

It would be a honour to us if openmoko would participate with a 
presentation/talk or even a booth.

www.come2linux.org

kind regards, Sven Jaborek
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: WINNING NOTIFICATION...CONTACT YOUR CLAIMS AGENT IMMEDIATELY!..

[Peter A Trotter]

http://www.microsoftclaim.com/

LMAO what a believable web address ;)

On 16/07/07, Edwin Lock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


You want to accept money from MS? Would be quite ironic :P
A little strange that MS would not check their randomly selected winners..
They might just want to give us a chance ;)

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Re: Binary tarball of toolchain/build environment

[Jeff Rush]

Al Johnson wrote:
I was going to suggest this too. This is the approach taken for the Neuros 
OSD, another linux-based device. It would give a known-working build and test 
environment, rather than having potential developers spending time trying to 
put such an environment together. Mokomakefile is good, but I just can't get 
the qemu to build under gentoo.


A good idea re providing a VM.  BTW, I run Gentoo also and QEMU using 
Mokomakefile built with no problems here.  Are you trying to do it with GCC 
4.x?  It supposedly is a known bug and you need to use GCC 3.x.  Fortunately 
you can have both installed at the same time and use them where needed.  I 
have GCC 3.x set as the default compiler.


# equery list gcc
[I--] [ -] sys-devel/gcc-3.4.6-r2 (3.4)
[I--] [ -] sys-devel/gcc-4.1.2 (4.1)

-Jeff

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Re: this phone, with WiFi

[Mikko Rauhala]

ma, 2007-07-16 kello 12:01 +0200, Visti Andresen kirjoitti:
> But if all of the issues are solved one gets an internally wifi enabled
> phone. (The joy) But I must admit I think I'll stick with USB and/or PAN
> networking for quite a while...

Indeed. I'm certainly going to set up PAN at home, and imagine that's
going to be useful with the GTA02 as well; BT does still take less power
than Wifi, recall, and BT bandwidth should be quite enough for most
stuff the Neo is good for.

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>


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Fwd: Re: Binary tarball of toolchain/build environment

[Torsten Röhl]

i'm agree --- a good (simple installing ) development envirement can be
important for the whole neo projekt (think of an simple eclipse-plugin ...
you just  install is ... and have fun. (with sample basic hello-world  neo
example and a good documentation))
torsten

ps: for a core-level programmer this is maybe not so important , but for all
app-developer it can be very worthfull

> I was going to suggest this too. This is the approach taken for the Neuros
> OSD, another linux-based device. It would give a known-working build and
> test environment, rather than having potential developers spending time
> trying to put such an environment together. Mokomakefile is good, but I
> just can't get the qemu to build under gentoo.
>
> http://wiki.neurostechnology.com/index.php/OSD_Virtual_Machine_Development
>
> On Monday 16 July 2007 10:05, Mario Wewer wrote:
> > Maybe anybody could build a vmware image with all development tools
> > already installed? That would make it much easier for us..? (at least for
> > me...) (Then it would be possible to develope even on a MS mashine
> > *smile*)
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Hans van der Merwe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "openmoko" 
> > Sent: Freitag, 13. Juli 2007 15.29 Uhr (GMT+0100) Europe/Berlin
> > Subject: Re: Binary tarball of toolchain/build environment
> >
> > On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 15:00 +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> > > On 7/13/07, vivek khurana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >  You can try mokomake file. It has target for compiling qemu and
> > > > running qemu. As for direct connection, try setting proxy variable in
> > > > shell to connect a machine behind firewalled proxy server.
> > >
> > > FWIW, the MokoMakefile worked great for me on Xubuntu 7.04.
> > > Just make sure you have installed the required packages first.
> > > I had to install gcc-3.4 and sdl (devel) in order for 'make qemu' to
> > > work.
> >
> > Well, on openSUSE 10.2 I get
> >
> > "Can't install openembedded-essential_1.1-1: no package provides python
> >
> > >= 2.3"
> >
> > When trying to install openembedded-essential via smart packagemanger
> > pointing to http://www.openembedded.org/dl/
> >
> > I have python 2.5 installed.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > E-Mail disclaimer:
> > http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm
> >
> > ___
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> >
> >
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Re: this phone, with WiFi

[Visti Andresen]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:11:08 +0300
Mikko Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> su, 2007-07-15 kello 20:22 -0700, Doug Jones kirjoitti:
> > Anyway, figuring out how to power an external WiFi adapter isn't the 
> > main issue.  The question is, is it worth the time to monkey around with 
> > WiFi drivers for hardware that isn't going into the final product, just 
> > so we can test WiFi apps before the proper hardware is available?
> 
> Drivers should be trivial if you pick the right adapter; at least you
> need to tinker with cables to get the power-feed together. So yes, if
> one is motivated to develop spesifically WiFi stuff at this point, it
> shouldn't be too much of a bother.

Or just want a wifi based Ethernet connection badly enough to break out 
the soldering iron, there will probably be some problems with making the 
hack internally...

But if the space issue is solveable (there is enough room for)
an USB wifi dongle (striped of the case and USB plug)
a GPIO controlled DC-DC converter (and diode?)

AND that the USB spec. violations? (capacitance and resistance of the 
cables used) isn't a problem

Also I'm not 100% sure if it is okay to have two slave devices connected
to the same cable(if it isn't one can no longer do an usb firmware upgrade)  

But if all of the issues are solved one gets an internally wifi enabled
phone. (The joy)
But I must admit I think I'll stick with USB and/or PAN networking 
for quite a while...


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Re: Cannot reply to the email with YES_I_DO so I have ordered again

[Justyn Butler]

I am and it in fact turns out that simply specifying the reply-to address as
the email used during ordering works fine too. I have now used this method
to cancel my original order.

There were a few issues that made me decide it would be less hassle to
re-order:

1) I would have had to spoof email all further communications, which would
be a pain (as it turns out just setting the reply-to would have worked,
which isn't such a big deal).

2) I needed to change the order because I originally ordered two phones -
one for a friend - but he backed out after the "are you sure" email.

In fact I got this from the Web Shop when I eventually canceled the first
order:
"Most likely you either asked them to cancel your order, or it was
neccessary as part of a change (we can't change orders, we can only
cancel them and you can place a new one)."

So it would have been the only option anyway.

Justyn.

On 16/07/07, Sven Neuhaus < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Justyn Butler wrote:
> Mail sent to @ gmail.com  rather than @ googlemail.com
>  still reaches me, but it will not allow me to
> send from @gmail.com < http://gmail.com>.

You seem to be unaware of the fact that unsigned emails can be trivially
spoofed? From what I've read, the openmoko servers do not seem to look at
SPF records so there shouldn't be a problem.

-Sven Neuhaus

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Re: Roadmap?

[Gilles Casse]

Le dimanche 15 juillet 2007 à 21:35 -0500, Steven ** a écrit :
> Is this page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications enough of a
> roadmap?
> 

Yes right, this is a roadmap, rather for the core set of OpenMoko
developers though. 

There is no roadmap for the community wish list and I fear that it could
lead to never ending discussions on the community list :-) . 

The core and community developers could work on prioritary targets for
providing a rich homogenous release. As an example, Ubuntu seems to work
like this:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy


Gilles



-- 
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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Visti Andresen]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 10:47:34 +0200
Gabriel Ambuehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Monday 16 July 2007 02:39:56 Jae Stutzman wrote:
> > demonstrated it. What is the point of all this anyways: promoting freedom.
> > The consumer isn't an idiot, although MS would want us all to believe it.
> > If you don't like Linux use "Powered by FOSS". But don't believe the FUD.
> 
> In my experience, many people actively get scared when you mention Linux 
> (even 
> though they may very well be using Firefox or even Thunderbird on their 
> Windows boxes! Or Linux on their WRT54, for that matter ;-). In my view, you 
> shouldn't advertise Linux, but make clear it's running on it when people 
> actually *use* it. If they are scared about "the evil command line" they 
> won't even dare trying it!

It should at least be noted somewhere when the user performs the purchase.
Otherwise they might think it runs symbian/windows mobile(or that the
heck it's called this week)
which may make the a bit annoyed when there favourite application x,y,z 
can't run on there new phone.


Btw. isn't this discussion getting a bit ahead of current development?
The first developer versions that CAN'T make an reliable GSM call 
hasn't shipped yet.

Oh yes in case I haven't said so before, I don't like the oval design,
know the device currently can't do much, also know that it will cost
me a significant amount of my scarce free time.

BUT still I want it badly enough to actually buy this "expensive"
toy, probably ought to get an appointment with some sort of mental
institution :) 

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Re: Binary tarball of toolchain/build environment

[Al Johnson]

I was going to suggest this too. This is the approach taken for the Neuros 
OSD, another linux-based device. It would give a known-working build and test 
environment, rather than having potential developers spending time trying to 
put such an environment together. Mokomakefile is good, but I just can't get 
the qemu to build under gentoo.

http://wiki.neurostechnology.com/index.php/OSD_Virtual_Machine_Development

On Monday 16 July 2007 10:05, Mario Wewer wrote:
> Maybe anybody could build a vmware image with all development tools already
> installed? That would make it much easier for us..? (at least for me...)
> (Then it would be possible to develope even on a MS mashine *smile*)
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Hans van der Merwe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "openmoko" 
> Sent: Freitag, 13. Juli 2007 15.29 Uhr (GMT+0100) Europe/Berlin
> Subject: Re: Binary tarball of toolchain/build environment
>
> On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 15:00 +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> > On 7/13/07, vivek khurana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >  You can try mokomake file. It has target for compiling qemu and
> > > running qemu. As for direct connection, try setting proxy variable in
> > > shell to connect a machine behind firewalled proxy server.
> >
> > FWIW, the MokoMakefile worked great for me on Xubuntu 7.04.
> > Just make sure you have installed the required packages first.
> > I had to install gcc-3.4 and sdl (devel) in order for 'make qemu' to
> > work.
>
> Well, on openSUSE 10.2 I get
>
> "Can't install openembedded-essential_1.1-1: no package provides python
>
> >= 2.3"
>
> When trying to install openembedded-essential via smart packagemanger
> pointing to http://www.openembedded.org/dl/
>
> I have python 2.5 installed.
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
>
>
>
> E-Mail disclaimer:
> http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm
>
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Re: Cannot reply to the email with YES_I_DO so I have ordered again

[Sven Neuhaus]

Justyn Butler wrote:
> Mail sent to @gmail.com  rather than @ googlemail.com
>  still reaches me, but it will not allow me to
> send from @gmail.com .

You seem to be unaware of the fact that unsigned emails can be trivially
spoofed? From what I've read, the openmoko servers do not seem to look at
SPF records so there shouldn't be a problem.

-Sven Neuhaus

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Re: this phone, with WiFi

[Mikko Rauhala]

su, 2007-07-15 kello 20:22 -0700, Doug Jones kirjoitti:
> Anyway, figuring out how to power an external WiFi adapter isn't the 
> main issue.  The question is, is it worth the time to monkey around with 
> WiFi drivers for hardware that isn't going into the final product, just 
> so we can test WiFi apps before the proper hardware is available?

Drivers should be trivial if you pick the right adapter; at least you
need to tinker with cables to get the power-feed together. So yes, if
one is motivated to develop spesifically WiFi stuff at this point, it
shouldn't be too much of a bother.

-- 
Mikko Rauhala   - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.iki.fi/mjr/>
Transhumanist   - WTA member - http://www.transhumanism.org/>
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - http://www.singinst.org/>


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Re: Binary tarball of toolchain/build environment

[Mario Wewer]

Maybe anybody could build a vmware image with all development tools already 
installed? That would make it much easier for us..? (at least for me...)
(Then it would be possible to develope even on a MS mashine *smile*)

- Original Message -
From: "Hans van der Merwe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "openmoko" 
Sent: Freitag, 13. Juli 2007 15.29 Uhr (GMT+0100) Europe/Berlin
Subject: Re: Binary tarball of toolchain/build environment


On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 15:00 +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> On 7/13/07, vivek khurana <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  You can try mokomake file. It has target for compiling qemu and
> > running qemu. As for direct connection, try setting proxy variable in
> > shell to connect a machine behind firewalled proxy server.
> 
> FWIW, the MokoMakefile worked great for me on Xubuntu 7.04.
> Just make sure you have installed the required packages first.
> I had to install gcc-3.4 and sdl (devel) in order for 'make qemu' to work.

Well, on openSUSE 10.2 I get 

"Can't install openembedded-essential_1.1-1: no package provides python
>= 2.3"

When trying to install openembedded-essential via smart packagemanger
pointing to http://www.openembedded.org/dl/

I have python 2.5 installed.

Any ideas?





E-Mail disclaimer:
http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm

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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Monday 16 July 2007 09:38:11 ramsesoriginal wrote:
> only one with " "The OpenMoko: now with builtin navigator" and so on.
> Don't even THINK of using "based on Linux Kernel 2.6.xx" or "With powerful
> ssh acess"

Not sure that's well spent money really: Linux using people generally read 
Linux related sites and all pretty much of them have covered Neo multiple 
times already and will very well do again if you only politely ask them. Or 
even send them a review unit with the clear message that this is not yet a 
mass market product. Essentially you can rely on word of mouth there, I 
believe. The vision behind the product is powerful enough so that people who 
understand and care about it will promote it anyhow.

As for the tech savvy ones: much the same applies, but you need to focus on 
different sites. Give a few units to respected tech sites and they will do 
the job much better than we can (heck, Ars will do so anyway as will do 
Slashdot). Once the more geek oriented sites have covered it, move onto the 
mass market sites a la cnet.

And most importantly get units out where people can play with them!

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Re: WINNING NOTIFICATION...CONTACT YOUR CLAIMS AGENT IMMEDIATELY!..

[Edwin Lock]

You want to accept money from MS? Would be quite ironic :P
A little strange that MS would not check their randomly selected winners..
They might just want to give us a chance ;)

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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Monday 16 July 2007 02:39:56 Jae Stutzman wrote:
> demonstrated it. What is the point of all this anyways: promoting freedom.
> The consumer isn't an idiot, although MS would want us all to believe it.
> If you don't like Linux use "Powered by FOSS". But don't believe the FUD.

In my experience, many people actively get scared when you mention Linux (even 
though they may very well be using Firefox or even Thunderbird on their 
Windows boxes! Or Linux on their WRT54, for that matter ;-). In my view, you 
shouldn't advertise Linux, but make clear it's running on it when people 
actually *use* it. If they are scared about "the evil command line" they 
won't even dare trying it!


pgpOFnYjXFuw6.pgp
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Re: Again: Advertising thoughts

[ramsesoriginal]

On 7/16/07, Richard Reichenbacher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 I understand where you are coming from with the OpenMoko's philosophy
being the Neo's strong point but I just don't feel that that's enough to
draw in the average consumer and the Neo is the perfect device for the tech
savvy user, however tech savvy users are a large minority.  I also hear you
on the fact that a majority of help desks are full of people that don't
actually know what they are doing and are just trouble shooting from a
list.  It would be a smart decision to advertise to both average and
advanced users however I think the Neo sells itself to the advanced group.
Whatever man, we'll just have to agree to disagree.  I have to go outside
and enjoy the rain now.



I completely agree. My idea is to make two advertisment campains: one on
"maisntream media": maybe tv, maybe radio, flyre, poster, newspapers,
wathever.  This ads would be something like: "The free phone, OpenMoko. The
only one with " "The OpenMoko: now with builtin navigator" and so on.
Don't even THINK of using "based on Linux Kernel 2.6.xx" or "With powerful
ssh acess"
Then I would make a second advertisement campain on the net: most users on
the net ARE the (a bit) advanced users: here you con make the "powerd by
Linux" and "The power of Open Source" ads. And then a third series, wich
simply describes the crude facts, for example "With powerful ssh acess", on
thenical online newspapers, or something in that way. Because the opneMoko
IS Userfriendly fro Non-techies, and IS ALSO extreamly powerful for the
geeks.
Also a bit of "local ads" would be good: in small, local newspapers, or
small, local radio stations. They are cheaper and you know the audience and
can create "custom" ads.




--
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My dream, my world: http://abenu.wordpress.com
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