Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

[Kevin Dean]

I have to chime in here, I was trying to resist. :)

OpenMoko Inc. is a company that, right now, is treading unfamiliar
waters. On one hand, they're a "newcomer" to the phone market so they
don't have name recognition yet so they need to generate "buzz" in
order to get the word out around their product. At the same time,
they're made up of hackers who value the freedom and the openness of
Free Software and have been applying that mentality to their business
model. When a "bug" was found in hardware, it's relayed to us.

The problem is that "the rest of the world" isn't ready for that. The
general media isn't used to HEARING about a product before it's
"almost out the door". OpenMoko Inc has the RARE burden here of
building hype for a product, keeping true to the hacker community who
demands transparency and pleasing the "consumers" that will in the end
buy it's product. I think the "resentment" in general is caused by
conflicting paradigms - most people read and article and expect a
product in 6 weeks.

I won't exactly fault OpenMoko here but they should have counted on
that. I understand fully what people are saying - I resisted buying a
Neo1973 because I "knew" a better version was on the horizon. At the
same time, it's the user's fault as well for making the assumption
that a project that "breaks all the rules" would follow the rules. :)
What ultimately got my $$$ was self-evaluation of why OpenMoko was
important to me at all - Freedom.

The media is hyping OpenMoko as "the iPhone killer" and a LOT of
people are interested in it for that reason. Since OpenMoko Inc.
hasn't exactly been... willing to correct that assumption (for obvious
reasons) I think, like GNU/Linux, the entire point is being lost.
OpenMoko is a phone powered by Free Software - if you want that, buy
it, you won't find another phone that meets that criteria. OpenMoko
today is not the iPhone killer. When you see it on a store shelf, of
see a friend with one and personally believe it's the iPhone killer,
THEN you should buy it as the iPhone killer.

But since I got the point of OpenMoko - Freedom - I didn't feel like I
was spending money on what OpenMoko is today. I spent money to ensure
that Freerunner would come out because I have faith that what OpenMoko
will be next year.

At the same time, OpenMoko is also a software community. Sometimes
people get defensive when something they've invested time and energy
into is "under attack" but at the same time criticism IS as important
in many ways as plaudits. Companies make mistakes, but what really
retains customers is how they respond to those mistakes. Myself, as a
paying customer of FIC/OpenMoko, I'm confidant that they're working on
ways to make my experience better. By keeping true to the goals of
openness and freedom, they're building hype. And while I am reluctant
to phrase it this way, I'm not one to "be nice" for the sake of it -
the message of freedom has sold SKUs and most of the "feature"
complaints are coming from people who haven't put any money behind
their rants. Whom do you THINK they're going to cater to given that?

Viva Libre!

-Kevin Dean

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Tilman Baumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jonathon Suggs wrote:
>
>  > Why?  Don't know your exact situation but my guess is that even when the
>  > FreeRunner is initially released it isn't going to be completely
>  > polished anyway.  So rather than get all frustrated (and build some
>  > resentment toward the project like I did) don't put an artificial
>  > timeframe on them...they will release the hardware when it is ready, not
>  > when you are ready for the hardware.
>  You don't need Openmoko in it's first generation to have perfect phone.
>  You would need it because you want to hack it.
>
>  Everyone complaining that Openmoko is not ready yet, does not have a
>  clue what this is all about.
>  It will be ready some time, and it will be the greatest phone on the planet.
>  But this is something the community needs to make it happen.
>  The first gen freerunner will be a TOOL for making the greatest phone!
>
>  Well the delay sucks. But it sucks for hackers not for endusers.
>  And by the way, making phone calls will most likely not be a issue.
>  Since it is already rather stabele at the moment.
>
>
>  Regards
>   Tilman
>
>
>
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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

[Kevin Dean]

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:52 PM, Lally Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Yup, responding to my own post.  I've got more to say on this.
>  This'll be it for a while, I want to see how this community's going to
>  go without me dragging it kicking & screaming.
>
>  Growing up in a bunch of open-source projects, a developer has to
>  decide which ones to work with.  You can't work on every open source
>  project you use daily -- there are literally hundreds we touch as we
>  go.  Instead, we pick and choose.  How?  Two criteria:
>  1. The project itself.
>  2. The community.

I caution you in painting pictures of the community or it's members -
we're ALL self-centric and those self-centricities are often as wrong
as they are right.

My criterion to which projects to help have nothing to do with the
community but in many cases the lack of it. My single criterion is how
well the project meets my need. OpenMoko, for instance, didn't have
good documentation when I joined and documentation is something I
think is useful. My motivations to help the project come from purely
selfish motivations - the desire to fill in the gaps that matter to
me.

Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you
to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that
people value Free Software.

>
>  If the community's really friendly and invites you in, you're more
>  likely to contribute.  If they reply to your inquries with a bunch of
>  RTFM, Write it yourself, or (what the rest really are saying) f*ck
>  off, then you're not going to go near them.

This next statement is going to reflect "poorly" on the Debian
community but I will, at this moment, disclaim my connection with them
so that the "bad" is my burden not theirs...

The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told "Read the
fucking manual". Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it
for me. :)

You argue that every person treated "rudely" is a potential
contributor lost. Perhaps I'm in the obscure minority but it was that
notion of self-reliance, that "do it yourself or it won't get done
right" mentality that pushed me to contribute. I'm not a programmer in
the sense of any of the project's I've contributed to but I like to
think that I DO contribute to projects by being passionate and being
persistant.

Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for
themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project,
I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking.

>
>  The "build it and they will come" mentality *DOES*NOT*WORK*.  I'll
>  remind you it came from a Kevin Costner movie, which really proves my
>  point.  You have to fight for every user.  The nice part is, you only
>  have to be nice and helpful... Things good leaders are anyway.


I don't disagree with you on points here. My only notice here is that
right NOW, OpenMoko is a "typical Free Software project". Fine. cool.
When OpenMoko goes "mass market" it will NOT be a typical project. All
of the axioms we've learned will be wrong at that point will be proven
or disproven but will hold no bearing on what a Free Software project
is. There has not yet been a Free Software project that set out, from
the begining, to bring freedom. Not Apache, not Linux. WHile they MAY
have achieved "critical mass" they didn't set out to be Free... GNU,
which DID set out to be Free, failed by not releasing a complete OS
"in time".

Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question
the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating
use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or
the other is questionable at best.

>
>  If I get a few more of these well-poisoning messages I'm out -- my
>  efforts here would be wasted as the community would never go anywhere.

I've always found that my desire to join and contribute to projects
are directly related to how I see that project benefiting me. By my
worldview, if you see OpenMoko as benefiting you, what "the community"
does is irrelevant since YOU are the only one you can directly control
to provide that benefit to you. I see individuals working to meet
their needs, altruism fails dramatically when your goal is to appeal
to the mass market. You introduce several forms of diversity that
begin conflicting. There comes a point in that great slippery slope
when you must choose to do EVERYTHING and upset the "minimalist" or
leave things out and offend the people who want "thing A".

A project founded on freedom and control, that self-same "do it
yourself" mentlality, allows the use to do what matters to them, and
ignore the community. Democracy is a beautiful principal if you can
ignore the fact that the majority is not always right.

>   If people step up and actually try to build a real community, I'm in.
>   I think there are more than a few others who feel the same way.

With all of my criticism, I beleive that community is critical to the
development of AN

Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

[Kevin Dean]

On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Lally,
>
>  This is clearly my responsibility, and in fact there is such a page:
>
>  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Community_Updates
>
>  I confess I have been lax in the past few months and have not updated
>  since January, but the status is in fact the same as it was then.

I've been meaning to e-mail you personally about thing bugging me but
this conversation very vaguely touches on some, so I'll enter it here.
:)

We, the "openmoko community" demand you communicate with us. We
complain when you don't. The flip side is true with us, however. You
can't be expected to communicate to us about the things that matter
unless we tell you clearly WHAT matters.

I think this shows on both sides, however that there are clear
communication issues.

One thing mentioned in the IRC chat several days ago was a notice on
direct.openmoko.com telling people of the impending Freerunner
"debut". As it is RIGHT now, people interested in supporting OpenMoko
are being turned away, but you're providing no curiosity pique for
those people to return at a later date to make a purchase. Lally
raises the point of the "community" responding here with a "read the
topic" response but OMi should really be directing how they want that
handled. Do you want interested persons to turn to IRC and ask a
question we're "all" tired of answering, or have those interested
people be put on a mailing list to be informed when they MAY spend
their money on this project?

I don't presume to tell you how to do anything, and I'm not even
dropping the implication of incompleteness or incompetance here, but
OpenMoko at this point DOES have a fledgling brand identity and it is
in the interest of both the project AND the company to ensure that
what is said "in the name of" OpenMoko is indeed reflected by aims of
the project.

>
>  There is some confusion as to whether A5 is known to be inadequate and
>  whether A6 will be a necessity. I am trying to get to the bottom of this.

Some people understand what this means, and some people do not. Gnome
devs need to sometimes remember that there's dealing with people who
can't tell a cursor from a config file. :) Openness mean sometimes
admitting when someoen doesn't know something. Even saying "I've sent
out some e-mails but haven't gotten anything I can share" means
something. Of all of the people on the IRC channel at any given say, I
know several of them are NOT subscribed to this list. What this means
is that "updates" are spread by word of mouth and evolve with every
telling of the news.

I'm under the impression that OMi just hired someoen who's sole job
will be to organizize the Wiki and make sure that the information is
either up-to-date or clearly marked "out of date". The goal here will
be to clear out the dead content and grow new content but the VAST
majority of people don't know that this person has been hired, and
even fewer of us have access to the company directory to e-mail her a
question - this kind of development is (for some) as important as
knowing of the some transistor is vital or just "helpful for the
future".

>
>  Michael
>
>
>

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Re: Neo Freerunner manufacturing status

[Kevin Dean]

Excellent update. :) Thanks!

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 6:33 AM, James Olney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the update Michael! Good news! looks like you've turned a corner!
>
>
>
>
>  On 19/03/2008, Daniel Spies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > Thank you very much for these good news! Really appreciate your update! :)
>  >
>  >  Daniel
>  >
>  >  On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:55:29 -0700, Michael Shiloh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  >  wrote:
>  >
>  > > Hi everyone,
>  >  >
>  >  > I just received a status report from our VP of Marketing, Steve Mosher:
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > The Freerunner design is currently staged to go through Production
>  >  > Validation Test (PVT). The hardware design A5 is, we believe, solid. We
>  >  > are updating this design to A6 to maximize production yields.
>  >  >
>  >  > The purpose of PVT is to make sure the yield is high enough, and to make
>  >  > sure the manufacturing and testing process is smooth and efficient.
>  >  >
>  >  > Steve also welcomes direct contact from you. He can be reached at
>  >  > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > Michael
>  >  >
>  >  > ___
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>  >
>  >
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>
>
>  --
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>  Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  www:  http://www.happyjames.co.uk
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>
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Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 10:29 AM, Lally Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [snipping to keep it short]
>  [ for everyone who's tired of reading these -- sorry.  the community's
>  easily as (actually, more) important than the hardware product itself.
>   debates like this are as important (imho) as those debating how much
>  RAM the device has or what cell frequencies should be enabled. ]
>
>  I abbreviate here for brevity, not to ignore any points you've mentioned.
>
>
>  On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >  Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you
>  >  to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that
>  >  people value Free Software.
>
>  I agree.  The self-motivated, ready-to-go, already-commited ones
>  aren't the ones I worry about.  It's everyone else.  Two groups come
>  to mind: 1. The beginners who would be contributors.  2. The coders
>  who are looking for a project to work on.   A honey-vs-vinegar
>  approach would help in both areas.
>
>
>  >  The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told "Read the
>  >  fucking manual". Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it
>  >  for me. :)
>
>  Responding to such a request like this:
>  RTFM: 
>  The old RTFM comment goes back to the older unix days, when you had
>  good printed documentation, but no google.   It's fair to assume that
>  people would look for documentation before asking...  They already
>  searched plenty to find the mailing list!
>
>
>  >  Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for
>  >  themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project,
>  >  I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking.
>
>  People still choose which projects to spend their time on, as we're
>  really competing with other projects for contributors.  It helps not
>  to treat them as spoiled, lazy children.
>
>
>  >  Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question
>  >  the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating
>  >  use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or
>  >  the other is questionable at best.
>
>  Others have pushed conceptual products (in this case, freedom) vs
>  traditional functionality before.  E.g. OpenBSD's cryptographic
>  freedom (hence) and security as a cultural decision.  As they don't
>  bring (initially) any new functionality to the table at start, we
>  *have* to recruit heavily to build a community.  The ones who'd come
>  in for selfish reasons don't see anything for them until someone else
>  has made the system useful.  The few exceptions are folks who need
>  specific, easy-to-implement features easily built atop the existing,
>  raw, openmoko stack.  IMHO, not too many by itself.
>
>  It's like a compound interest equation for a savings account.  The
>  initial amount put in is how many people believed in the original
>  ideals of the project (remember the account starts at zero, so we only
>  have ideals to start with).  What they put in builds interest --- the
>  results of their work interests more people.  Those people's
>  contributions (even if it's just evangelizing) adds onto the balance
>  in the account --- building interest themselves.  The cycle continues
>  forward.
>
>  Maybe that metaphor made more sense in my head than out loud.
>
>  But, everyone's got their buy-in point.  The amount of work required
>  to make the device useful/interesting for them.  More work than that,
>  and they're not interested.  Any coder will tell you that they spend
>  as much time going through documentation and other people's source as
>  they do writing your own.  That's where the community comes in: if
>  it's easy to get help, the amount of work spent looking up
>  documentation/help reduces, and we have more developers who were just
>  waiting for the project to hit their buy-in point.  Open source
>  projects charge a price in hours worked, not dollars.  Never pretend
>  that the former isn't easily worth as much as the latter.
>
>  --
>
> H. Lally Singh
>  Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
>  Virginia Tech
>
>
>
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Re: Additional info

[Kevin Dean]

You use the words "long life" and "fragile", if you're wondering about
the long-term viability of the hardware, it's quite a bit more robust
than the last few phones I've used. :)

I've dropped it several times getting in and out of my car, I keep it
in my pocket with my keys and loose coin when I walk about. The screen
doesn't seem to scratch (thought it does smudge). In all, I think the
device is well built and can be used in environments any typical cell
phone would be used for.

It's a well-build geek toy, that CAN be a long life cell phone, if you like. :)

-Kevin

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 2:19 PM, andy selby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  I have a question:
>  >  It will be a long life cellphone? Or will it just be some fragile geek
>  >  toy to use with care?
>

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Re: Price of the Freerunner published?

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Carlo E. Prelz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  both US and EU must offer some sort of warranty.

I don't believe this is true. IIRC the EU requires sellers or
manufacturers to warranty items (or perhaps specific items) but
there's no such requirement in the USA (though most companies do it).

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Re: Congratulations Harald!

[Kevin Dean]

Congrats Harald!

On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Joe Pfeiffer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well deserved by both recipients!
>
>
>
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Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts

[Kevin Dean]

National warranties aside (I'm a libertarian...) I see certifying
aftermarket accessories as a crucial step for Openmoko, or at the v
ery least picking ONE that "works well" with a Neo/Freerunner device.

I recently purchased an iGo charger in the USA that "claimed "it could
charger a 100, 500 or 1000 mA device and it can't. :P I'm out $40,
which isn't "crucial" to me, but it's a sum that is large enough to
regret paying when a $10 charger would be equally effective.

I don't want to veer too far off topic but "third-party" accessories
and battery life are directly tied IMO. As long as the battery life
suck on the Neo/Freerunner people will need chargers for the device,
and as long as a working fast-charge charger doesn't exist, it will be
construed as bad planning.

-Kevin Dean

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 11:18 PM, ian douglas
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wolfgang Spraul wrote:
>  > There are lots of clones of these Nokia batteries, we bought a few and
>  > can give you the names. But basically anything BL-4C, BL-5C, BL-6C
>  > compatible should work.
>
>  Just my $0.02 here, but:
>
>  *Should* work, or *definitely* work? I'd rather not buy a 'maybe'
>  battery and would rather buy a branded battery direct from OM...
>
>  But if enough people test these BL-?C batteries and prove they work just
>  fine and nobody has any incidents related to a Nokia battery, then okay,
>  I'll look for a local vendor selling them if I need a spare battery.
>
>  I ran into the same issue with my iRiver digital music player, I needed
>  a replacement, but iRiver didn't make this model any more so
>  after-market batteries were all that were left. In the end, an iPod
>  replacement battery did the job, but the polarity on the jumper header
>  needed to be switched before plugging it in and reassembling the case. I
>  only ordered the battery once I'd read about 20 personal accounts that,
>  yeah, this particular battery worked just fine, no incidents.
>
>  Just the 'realist' in me coming out to play. :o)
>
>
>
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Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts

[Kevin Dean]

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:58 PM, joerg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Correct, it checks for 48k-OHM resistor on ID-pin of mini-USB, then enables 
> 1A
>  instead of 100/500mA USB-standard.
>  You also may enable 1A-mode (and 500mA mode) via some small GUI-app IIRC.
>

This is possible via userspace with Bobby's application.
(http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script).

However, the flaw to this is that it will force fast charge even if
the charger isn't capable and hints that this could be... bad. :)

For the record, it APPEARS that with the Python application, the iGo
works just fine as a charger.

-Kevin

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Re: Price of the Freerunner spare parts

[Kevin Dean]

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 8:18 PM, joerg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Alas there is *absolutely* *NO* way for NEO though to tell when your 
> braindead
>  850mA charger will start to slowly melt down overnight when you set 1A charge
>  mode via applet. It's very unlikely there will ever be any trouble other than
>  very rare occasional broken chargers, but we just can't guarantee it's safe,
>  for nobody knows all the chargers in this world.

As a hacker poking around with prototype hardware, that's a fine
answer. For a mass market device, that's suicide. I understand that
the Neo can't make the determination, but in the long run I think that
Openmoko MUST. It is physically possible to charge the Neo at it's
full speed (because it happens with the USB charger) so therefore it
must be physically POSSIBLE to have an AC or DC based charger that
does the same thing without requiring a computer tether. If any
charger on the market can do this I think it would be simple enough
for Openmoko to "certify" that the MODEL (not each unit, of course) is
compatible and, unless it malfunctions, won't burst into flame.

If there exists no such device on the market then perhaps that needs
to be corrected either directly or indirectly. Put very simple "Car
charging is a very big deal". Assuming the first (certification) or
second (fabrication) options can't be met - drop the "fast charge" as
a feature since anyone unable to fast charge in their car will
consider their device "broken" at best or sold on a feature that
doesn't exist.

>  However it's not our fault when sth really bad is happening, for every
>  charger/host is supposed to be short-circuit safe (mustn't burn, otherwise
>  probably mustn't be sold),

I don't think anybody expects a certification of safety from Openmoko
(there are voluntary organizations like Underwriter's Laboratories
here in the US that will certify safety) for a product to go to market
and even if they DID nobody can rightly expect you'll certify that no
device will ever malfunction.

> and it's the USER who has to think *before*
>  enabling 1A mode. Hey guys, when connecting your 110V device to a 230V outlet
>  in Europe, whom do you blame for the smoke?!

The "common user" mentality is one that has, IMO, bitten Free Software
repeatedly. As a serious (and non-belittling) thought exercise, how
many people here know what amperage their car charger pushes out? How
many people here have wives or mothers or nephews that know that
answer?

The average person buys a car charger because the box says "Compatible
with ". Some might not even go that far since a commonly held
assumption is that "if it fits in the hole, it will work". Yeah, kinda
stupid, but it's also pretty reasonable to expect that this WILL
happen. It's also reasonable to suspect that at least SOME people will
take that and have it reflect poorly on Openmoko even if the charger
was bought third party. It's sometimes easy to dismiss user stupidity
when you're writing code that you use and the only signs you see are a
ticking download counter or more hits in a server log, but this is
something that I think could directly relate to the ability to sell
SECOND units to people.

>  bottom line: USB is specified for 500mA at MAX, and even this needs
>  intelligent host (alias charger). Everything beyond has to have some
>  intelligence with it, either the one of the user not messing with chargemode,
>  or the one of OM-designers creating and checking for a proprietary way to
>  signal >500mA charger capabilities (=48k).
>  (PS: For the record: If i got this right, the 48k even means "I'm a charger
>  and I can do *2*(!)A", just GTA02 can't take more than 1A. This might change
>  for GTA0x!)
>
>  HTH
>  cheers
>  your friendly engineer jOERG

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Re: Loosing your moko

[Kevin Dean]

The idea of a homing beacon is pretty cool. I have to say, however
that havign a centralized place for this information to be stored
is... as politely as possible, stupid.

Asking "Can we do something" expresses creativity but requires a
"should we do something". We know the device CAN do that, figuring out
how to impliment it and keep the user in control of that data should
always be first and foremost. A client/server setup, that anyone with
a PC or server can setup makes a lot of sense.

And just remember, serial numbers physically etched on the device and
a report to your insurance agency can go a long way with mitigating
the loss if you ever loose your Neo.

-Kevin

On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Sean Anderson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think the original idea was a sensible one, but I doubt many would be
>  willing to risk losing all their data for the rare situation where it
>  would be a security advantage.
>
>  I think there is something to be said for nifty GPS features. I've lost
>  my phone... why not SMS it and ask it to email me its location? :)
>
>  Security-wise, however, it's a patchy strategy despite how cool it
>  sounds. It isn't going to stop the physical phone being stolen, but to
>  what extent can the Moko be encrypted to protect your data?
>
>  Sean.
>
>
>
>  On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 18:11 +0200, Sebastian Billaudelle wrote:
>  > Hi there!
>  >
>  > I thought about the risk of loosing the moko or of getting it
>  > stolen...
>  >
>  > I got the following idea:
>  > If you can't find you moko, you only have to send an SMS with a
>  > special keyword/passphrase to your moko.
>  > It recognises the special text and sends the current coordinates to a
>  > server. So you can see it's position.
>  >
>  > cheers
>  > Sebastian
>
>
>
>
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Re: GTA02 Release Date

[Kevin Dean]

On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Sean Anderson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think many people are anxious to know when the Neo FreeRunner will
>  actually be released. I know of many people that are quite eager to buy
>  one; if it won't be ready till December, say so. Stop keeping hundreds
>  of people waiting with bated breath for a device that seems to be be
>  unlikely to ever see the light of day in any stable form. Be open, give
>  the community more detailed information; when is it likely to be
>  released, why and why not?

Sometimes the hardest thing to answer is "I don't know". My personal
opinion here is that "I don't know" is probably the best answer there
is. As a user, I want to know EXACTLY when I can expect my next dose
of sexiness in hardware form. As someone who supports and understands
business, saying "Freerunner will be here in September" is suicide IF
there are issues discovered in August. Openmoko can't give you a
release date because giving a release date depends on the schedule
being followed. Hardware defects, supplier issues, vendor commitments
being met, et cetera.

I'd settle at this point, and really kind of want a "Assuming nothing
delays us..." answer... But even then the pragmatist in me cringes at
that. No matter how many disclaimers are attached to it, ANY statement
by Openmoko will be Gospel Truth to SOME people and those people's
disappointment may be very REAL losses of sales. The last official
answer that was given is "April... Maybe." It's still April, so
there's time to correct that.


>
>  The OpenMoko project, as it appears to others, is a failure of the open
>  source model rather than the visible example of the success of open
>  development that it rightly should be.

Openmoko has given continuous updates as the information is available
to them. That information changes daily, just live source code, as
various issues are discovered. You speak as if you've been deprived of
some natural right... Openmoko has promised that they'll try to be as
open as possible and get you a consumer ready device as soon as they
can. Until then, you've got a developer ready device, and that was
made VERY clear when you clicked "Buy" and input your payment
information.


>
>  I've been expecting the opportunity to buy a Neo for over six months
>  now, and it seems to be that the only way in which to obtain a small
>  form-factor smartphone is to pop into the cathedral and buy an iPhone.

I bought my Neo in January. The opportunity ot buy a Neo existed less
than two months ago. For some reason you didn't because (I'm
presuming) it didn't meet your needs at the time. It really looks to
me that this is an issue of misplaces expectations than anything else.
Developers have been clamoring for a developer preview of Freerunner,
which has been pushed back and back. Openmoko has NEVER promised a
release date for a CONSUMER READY Freerunner, ONLY the developer
previews.

>
>  Sean.
>
>  So why is it called the Neo 1973? I get the "neo" part, that means new,
>  but what's significant of 1973?

1973 was the year the mobile phone was invented.

>  > That was the original release date!
>
>
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Re: Unofficial poll: Do you want 3G in the proposed successor, GTA03?

[Kevin Dean]

I'd happily trade wifi for 3G. Well, that is... Until Openmoko begins
offering a wifi service for under $20 a month that allows me to do
streaming internet radio in my car. :) Wifi is worthless with 110 mile
daily commute.

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Andy Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Monday 07 April 2008 15:56, Brad Midgley wrote:
>  > Hey
>  >
>  > Are you trying to influence the poll? "No, 3g is essential" won't
>  > register... a popup tells me to select a valid choice :)
>
>  hehe, if I was trying to do that you'd have :
>
>  Is 3g important...
>
>  1. Yes.
>  2. No and I kill kittens.
>
>  It looks to me as if your vote was accepted :
>
>  No. 3g is essential.xxx.xxx.xxx.215 xxx.comcast.net
>
>  Did you click twice? Do you have javascript on? Does it tell you that you
>  already voted?
>
>
>  Andy
>
>
>
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Re: Unofficial poll: Do you want 3G in the proposed successor, GTA03?

[Kevin Dean]

On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Steven **
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As a US resident, 3G is pretty useless to me.  Mostly because it costs
>  AT LEAST an additional $30 a month to utilize it.  I'm also not sure
>  it's available in my area.

I'm also a US resident and the unlimited plan on my carrier is $19.99 a month.

>
>  WiFi, on the other hand, is free when it's available (which is
>  admittedly scarce in some areas).

The main trade offs between wifi and 3G, IMO, are consistancy. In this
area, 3G is EVERYWHERE but there are few if ANY wifi services that can
handle a 50 mile radius without a drop. I see no point in having a
mobile internet connecting if you can't actually connect to the
internet while moving.

>
>  -Steven
>
>
>
>  On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 7:00 AM, Federico Lorenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > First off, this is by no means official in any way. Vote on [1] if you
>  >  _think_ 3G is essential for a successor to FreeRunner
>  >
>  >  [1] http://blog.automated.it/2008/04/07/is-3g-an-important-feature/
>  >
>  >  Cheers,
>  >  Federico
>  >
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>
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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Kevin Dean]

Excellent, thanks for the update!

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 12:50 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>   I thought I would combine a couple posts today. First an update on PVT, or
>  production verification test. Phones are being sent to me from the first PVT
>  run. Michael Shiloh will be back in Silicon valley next Tuesday, so he and I
>  will test the samples and get them out to key partners. I want to check a
>  couple things like using the Nokia batteries as spares and generic USB
>  chargers before I send these samples out.
>
>  Now, for the update on Products, and Pricing,
>
>  1. Products.
>
>   Orginally the FreeRunner ( GTA02) was planned to come out in two packages.
>  Basic and advanced, just like the Neo 1973. We killed that idea. It was a
>  quick humane death. The problem was the GTA02 advanced unit would have been
>  $650 USD. After seeing the response to Neo 1973, a huge response, we decided
>  the best path was to lower the price, reward our early developers, and
>  attract more developers.
>
>  2. Pricing
>  We scrubbed the BOM ( bill of materials). We eliminated the Luxurious bits.
>  Optimized the box like it was code. The first thing we got rid of
>  was the lunchbox. It was cool, but it was expensive and heavy. Eliminating
>  that was a sizeable cost savings. ( think shipping weight).
>
>  Next we pulled out the debug board and made it a separate product.  We
>  priced it at $99 US. about 1 tenth what people would pay for similar
>  capability.
>
>  My goal was to get to a place where we could sell the FreeRunner at $399.
>  USD.
>
>  We did that.
>
>  The FreeRunner will ship from Openmoko.com at $399. For early customers
>  I'm looking at throwing in a few free things. More details later.
>
>  The debug board will be available as a separate product for $99 USD.
>
>  Many people wrote me mails asking if they could get a discount by buying
>  more than one phone. Sometimes they were universities, sometimes a small
>  business, sometimes a small group or club.
>
>  For these people we created a 10Pack. instead of 399 per phone, we will
>  charge 369 per phone.
>
>
>  Over the next few days I will explain the next steps we go through and how
>  the product will get distributed
>
>
>  Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Kevin Dean]

On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Andrea Debortoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> what about EUROS prices??

IF, and this is an IF, it works as it did with the GTA01, the USD
price is technically incorrect. When i paid, it charged my debit card
for $309 worth of Taiwan dollars. I would imagine that your bank would
be charged the amount of Euros needed to convert to $399 worth of
taiwan dollars, if that makes sense.

-Kevin

> I hope that no 1:1 change will be applied...
>
> thanks a lot for the news!!
>
> Andrea
>
> 2008/4/11, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >
> >
> >   I thought I would combine a couple posts today. First an update on PVT,
> or
> > production verification test. Phones are being sent to me from the first
> PVT
> > run. Michael Shiloh will be back in Silicon valley next Tuesday, so he and
> I
> > will test the samples and get them out to key partners. I want to check a
> > couple things like using the Nokia batteries as spares and generic USB
> > chargers before I send these samples out.
> >
> > Now, for the update on Products, and Pricing,
> >
> > 1. Products.
> >
> >   Orginally the FreeRunner ( GTA02) was planned to come out in two
> packages.
> > Basic and advanced, just like the Neo 1973. We killed that idea. It was a
> > quick humane death. The problem was the GTA02 advanced unit would have
> been
> > $650 USD. After seeing the response to Neo 1973, a huge response, we
> decided
> > the best path was to lower the price, reward our early developers, and
> > attract more developers.
> >
> > 2. Pricing
> > We scrubbed the BOM ( bill of materials). We eliminated the Luxurious
> bits.
> > Optimized the box like it was code. The first thing we got rid of
> > was the lunchbox. It was cool, but it was expensive and heavy. Eliminating
> > that was a sizeable cost savings. ( think shipping weight).
> >
> > Next we pulled out the debug board and made it a separate product.  We
> > priced it at $99 US. about 1 tenth what people would pay for similar
> > capability.
> >
> > My goal was to get to a place where we could sell the FreeRunner at $399.
> > USD.
> >
> > We did that.
> >
> > The FreeRunner will ship from Openmoko.com at $399. For early customers
> > I'm looking at throwing in a few free things. More details later.
> >
> > The debug board will be available as a separate product for $99 USD.
> >
> > Many people wrote me mails asking if they could get a discount by buying
> > more than one phone. Sometimes they were universities, sometimes a small
> > business, sometimes a small group or club.
> >
> > For these people we created a 10Pack. instead of 399 per phone, we will
> > charge 369 per phone.
> >
> >
> > Over the next few days I will explain the next steps we go through and how
> > the product will get distributed
> >
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
>
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Re: What should be included in packaging (was: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update)

[Kevin Dean]

I'm in the same position as Bobby. I use my Neo as my primary phone as
well as my digital media player. I haven't touched the lanyard or the
pouch since I took them out of the box.

But I also don't use my stylus. My stylus was neat in the beginning,
because I could use it to play with my cats, but as a functional part
of the Neo I find it a hinderance.

I bring this up because I think it MIGHT be relevant. The Neo doesn't
have a slot for a stylus. In the discussion of what will be an
accessory and what will be part of the package, I think the stylus is
the only one that has an actual impact to the software. If the stylus
is NOT included in the box, the software should be written in a way to
not need it. I'd personally be QUITE happy with this but I'm pretty
sure there are many people who would disagree. But if the software
won't be thumb oriented, the stylus is NOT an accessory.

I like Bobby's idea, the "click here to buy this accessory" but I
think Steve has pretty much ruled that out. Openmoko isn't going to
purchase and stock items without a profit and if it did that, it would
be passing unneeded expense to the customer.

What I think is the most prudent method to take is to have an openmoko
branded "Approved" stamp. This could be community OR vendor initiated.
I know that my iGo charger works without issue on the Neo with the
Check Fast Charge applet. I see no reason that Openmoko couldn't
recommend this on the site once the product goes mainstream. It would
allow the customer to make their own decisions, still leave a TON of
options, let the customer pick the best price and ensure a decently
high level of quality.

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 10:33 -0500, Bobby Martin wrote:
>
>  > I lost the stylus (it's way too cool; if you forget it at a restaurant
>  > or something, you don't get a call asking if you want it back :-)
>
>  They are $3 a piece w/ shipping included if you take ten.
>
>  For example this one here:
>
>  
> http://cgi.ebay.com/10-x-4in1-Red-LASER-Pointer-LED-Torch-PDA-Stylus-PEN_W0QQitemZ220223455957QQihZ012QQ
>
>
>  No need to buy another Neo to get a new pen ;-)
>
>
>
>
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Re: What should be included in packaging (was: Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update)

[Kevin Dean]

I'll add it at some point. The reason I haven't is because right now
the Fast Charge applet isn't part of the Openmoko stack. A default
image of Openmoko doesn't support this charger in fast mode (which is
the ONLY think I'm concerened about, frankly).

And... This might show my own biases, but I can't STAND wiki. The
general consensus among "commoners" is that, because wiki can be
changed by anyone, they're unreliable. I know this isn't the case, and
i do assume that the vast majority of people are doing things with
good intention, but having OFFICIAL documentation on a wiki is about
as good for the "average consumer" as having no documentation at all.

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Tim Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's a good idea, but for the most part that "approved" stamp can be
> fulfilled through the wiki.  I'm sure there is already list of compatible
> hardware / devices that work with the NEO.  I suggest you add your iGo
> charger to that list.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm in the same position as Bobby. I use my Neo as my primary phone as
> > well as my digital media player. I haven't touched the lanyard or the
> > pouch since I took them out of the box.
> >
> > But I also don't use my stylus. My stylus was neat in the beginning,
> > because I could use it to play with my cats, but as a functional part
> > of the Neo I find it a hinderance.
> >
> > I bring this up because I think it MIGHT be relevant. The Neo doesn't
> > have a slot for a stylus. In the discussion of what will be an
> > accessory and what will be part of the package, I think the stylus is
> > the only one that has an actual impact to the software. If the stylus
> > is NOT included in the box, the software should be written in a way to
> > not need it. I'd personally be QUITE happy with this but I'm pretty
> > sure there are many people who would disagree. But if the software
> > won't be thumb oriented, the stylus is NOT an accessory.
> >
> > I like Bobby's idea, the "click here to buy this accessory" but I
> > think Steve has pretty much ruled that out. Openmoko isn't going to
> > purchase and stock items without a profit and if it did that, it would
> > be passing unneeded expense to the customer.
> >
> > What I think is the most prudent method to take is to have an openmoko
> > branded "Approved" stamp. This could be community OR vendor initiated.
> > I know that my iGo charger works without issue on the Neo with the
> > Check Fast Charge applet. I see no reason that Openmoko couldn't
> > recommend this on the site once the product goes mainstream. It would
> > allow the customer to make their own decisions, still leave a TON of
> > options, let the customer pick the best price and ensure a decently
> > high level of quality.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 10:33 -0500, Bobby Martin wrote:
> > >
> > >  > I lost the stylus (it's way too cool; if you forget it at a
> restaurant
> > >  > or something, you don't get a call asking if you want it back :-)
> > >
> > >  They are $3 a piece w/ shipping included if you take ten.
> > >
> > >  For example this one here:
> > >
> > >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/10-x-4in1-Red-LASER-Pointer-LED-Torch-PDA-Stylus-PEN_W0QQitemZ220223455957QQihZ012QQ
> > >
> > >
> > >  No need to buy another Neo to get a new pen ;-)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> >
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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Kevin Dean]

The RapRep doesn't have the precision needed to build a Neo case, and
last I checked, didn't have varied enough base materials to make a
study, opaque, and APPEALING case. Put simply "multi-colored cases"
are purely a looks thing.

The CAD files are out there and someone who wanted to sell after
market cases and felt that there was sustainable demand to be
profitable doing it, could. I'm willing to bet that in typical mobile
phone fashion there will be a wide variety of stickers and shells for
the device long before there are new case kits.

For a single unit, it would probably be cheaper to buy a spare case
and have an automotive body expert paint it.

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Ian Darwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >   Well I apologize for killing the orange/white model.  When I
>  > get to place where I can figure what colors everyone wants and in what
>  > ratios, then I can easily add colors. For now, folks are focused on the
>  > innards and not the cosmetics.
>
>  In the days of Henry Ford, it made sense to say "You can have any color you
>  like, as long as it's black". The next year, competitors went wild with 
> colors,
>  leading to the frenzy of of new-car-year style changes that we put up with 
> today. :-)
>
>  OTOH, today it does make sense to say it, because the CAD files are
>  up. And while nobody could afford to build their own Model T, today
>  many people that can afford a FreeRunner and that want fancy colors
>  can in fact build a RepRap (see
>  http://theories.darwinsys.com/2008/03/09/120508800.html) and
>  make their own cases.
>
>
>
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Re: Nano on Openmoko

[Kevin Dean]

Nano is available in the repositories included with recent images.

To install it, one simply needs to do "opkg install nano
-force-overwrite" on an internet connected Neo. I'm assuming that QEMU
would do the same.

-Kevin

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After playing with my qemu VM of Openmoko for a while, I decided to play with
>  cross compiling some programs (mostly my ~20 line beginners C programs).
>  After noticing vi was the only text editor included, I figured another option
>  might be useful.  So I played with the nano source and the arm gcc
>  cross-compiler (I like to call omgcc)  and finally got nano running on the
>  OM!  I don't know how most of it will work since Ctrl doesn't seem to work in
>  the VM (any thoughts on this?)  Anyway, here's a link to the nano binary for
>  you to run on your VM/Neo/Freerunner.  Enjoy
>
>  http://onedollarlinux.com/misc/openmoko/arm-angstrom-linux-nano.bz2
>  --
>  
>  Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  http://onedollarlinux.com
>  BLOG - http://onedollarlinux.com/personal/
>
>  Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>  See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
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Re: Trading in €uros ?

[Kevin Dean]

The figure in USD is as innacurate as anything else. You're not
actually paying $399 USD, you're paying the number of New Taiwan
Dollars that can be exchanged for $399 USD.

Rebasing the price in ANY currency means absolutely nothing since
(assuming you aren't paying exchange premiums) it's the same price. Of
course, they could say 399 Euros, in which case it would be getting
more expensive for EVERYONE.

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Didier Raboud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Didier Raboud wrote:
>
>  > Hi,
>  >
>  > Just wondering. With the actual fall of the U$D, why not setting the Neo's
>  > prices in €uros ? (Which is actually pretty strong.) (or ¥ens, ...)
>  >
>  > This would imply a rising price (with time) for American customers instead
>  > of a falling one for European ones.
>  >
>  > Actually, the actual situation is good for me if the U$D continues to go
>  > down : my future Neo will cost less to me. :)
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  >
>  > OdyX, aka Didier Raboud
>
>  Just to precise my thoughts...
>
>  The idea is not to have a rise of the price for American customers, but to
>  protect the value of the future Neo against a fall of the U$D. If the U$D
>  continues to fall, the real income back to FIC will fall with time. FIC
>  will then have to augment its prices which is not desirable...
>
>  Well... I'm not that much in Finance, so don't give my thoughts too much
>  value.
>
>  Regards, Didier
>
>
>
>
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Re: DHL has a package for me!

[Kevin Dean]

Ihre Ausweis!

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 11:57 AM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My samples arrived!
>
>  I'm in customs hell. They want me to prove I am an american. So I have to
>  send them a copy of
>  My social security card or my taxes.
>
>
>
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Re: 3G? What about CDMA?

[Kevin Dean]

GSM is essentially an international standard. With some exceptions,
CDMA isn't used much.

Furthermore, even in the USA, Verizon will be deploying a GSM network
"soon" (next few years). So a Freerunner WILL work on Verizon in the
near future.

Don't count on a CDMA device, using a relatively "closed" network
doesn't meet the aims of the Openmoko project.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Steven **
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo
>  Freerunner all the time.  Inevitably, they say something like "That's
>  cool.  Will it work with Verizon?" or "That's cool.  Will it work with
>  Sprint?".  And of course, the answer is no...  I don't think any of my
>  friends are with at&t (even though they're supposedly the largest
>  wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider.  They're all on
>  Sprint or Verizon.  I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to
>  at&t solely for the Neo.  But most people aren't willing to do that
>  (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination
>  fee).
>
>  So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo?  I think
>  that'd about double your sales in the US.
>
>  -Steven
>
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Re: openmoko roadmap

[Kevin Dean]

Speaking realistically, it's impossible for Openmoko to reveal that
information and no have it hurt sales, for EXACTLY the reason you
mentioned. As a support (and Neo1973 owner) I debated with this
myself. Why pay for a phone today when I KNOW the "newer" model is
around the corner?

At the same time, Openmoko walked right into this since NOT revealing
this is going to levy charges of "You're not being open like you said
you would."

Frankly, I want a phone powered by Free Software. If Openmoko needs to
conceal future product plans to ensure that, so be it.

In a little bit of a less "objective" based answer and a more "reality
based" answer:

Openmoko Inc. is a "young" company. So far they've not released their
debut product to the market they intend to. In a very real way, how
well Freerunner does will deterime what, if ANYTHING, happens to
future products that Openmoko kicks out. If they make 100x more units
than they sell, there won't BE a "next time".

Simple, concise and efficient answer: If you want a GTA03, buy a
GTA02. Failure to do so is failure to ensure there will be a future
model.

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 16 April 2008 20:20:44 Peter Abplanalp wrote:
>  > with the release of the freerunner coming up, i'm wondering about the
>  > roadmap and future for openmoko and additional phones.  i'm an advanced
>  > linux user but have no experience with openmoko or the cell phone platform
>  > and thus i'm wondering if the the freerunner is the phone for me or not
>  > seeing as how what i've read on this list is that the freerunner is still
>  > an "advanced user" phone.  does anyone at openmoko know when we might
>  > expect the next phone after the freerunner?  if it is going to be more than
>  > a year or so, i think i want to get a freerunner but if the next phone
>  > would be a year or less away, i may wait.
>
>  I don't think Om Inc. will take the risk of repeating the potential Osborne
>  effect. Last time it already did enough damage.
>
>  :M:
>
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Re: 3G? What about CDMA?

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Steven **
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't see how GSM is much less "closed" of a network protocol than
>  CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference).

Stop thinking in terms of the technology itself and think in terms of
a userbase. In the majority of the world, a CDMA phone would be a
restriction on the number of carriers you can use and where. In the
US, it's Sprint and Verizon (and even that is only true short term).
There are some Japanese carriers that are also CDMA. Everywhere else
uses GSM. GSM is in every European market, and there are a LOT of
potential customers in Europe.

Openmoko is about openness, not just about "open source". Even the
model being used to sell the devices tries to break away from the "Go
to your carrier's store and buy the device to use on their network"
paradigm. Buy your phone, powered by Free Software, and pick any of
the carriers who use the most common cellular technology on the
planet.


>  The
>  GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo.  A CDMA chip
>  would be no different.

Even if that doesn't work for you, it's a dumb investment to NOT aim
for the largest market possible. By making a CDMA-based phone,
Openmoko only captures a small percentage of the total number of
worldwide cellular users. As a fledgling brand it isn't feasible to
make BOTH a CDMA and a GSM based product in a debut offering - the
expense is too high with the unknown to big a variable.

>
>  As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA
>  conflicts with that.  I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to
>  show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing.  It seems
>  odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider.

Lack of choice is the #1 complaint Verizon got from their customers.
"Verizon Exclusive" phones that they couldn't use off the Verizon
network. Phones they owned from their other carrier that couldn't be
used on Verizon.

Because of this market pressure, Verizon is switching their networks
to GSM so that they can seamlessly compete with GSM providers (which
is the majority of the market). It's in the interest of Verizon AND
the customers to standardize on a single set of technology and GSM is
that standard. It is possible that by the time Verizon's GSM network
is up (2009, from what I heard) the Freerunner will be "mass market".
In that case, the only network that it won't work on is Sprint's. You
can debate over who is exactly at fault in that situation; all the
handset makers worldwide or Sprint.

>
>  -Steven
>
>
>
>  On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > GSM is essentially an international standard. With some exceptions,
>  >  CDMA isn't used much.
>  >
>  >  Furthermore, even in the USA, Verizon will be deploying a GSM network
>  >  "soon" (next few years). So a Freerunner WILL work on Verizon in the
>  >  near future.
>  >
>  >  Don't count on a CDMA device, using a relatively "closed" network
>  >  doesn't meet the aims of the Openmoko project.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >  On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Steven **
>  >  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >  > I talk with friends and co-workers about OpenMoko and the Neo
>  >  >  Freerunner all the time.  Inevitably, they say something like "That's
>  >  >  cool.  Will it work with Verizon?" or "That's cool.  Will it work with
>  >  >  Sprint?".  And of course, the answer is no...  I don't think any of my
>  >  >  friends are with at&t (even though they're supposedly the largest
>  >  >  wireless carrier in the US) or any other GSM provider.  They're all on
>  >  >  Sprint or Verizon.  I myself was originally on Verizon and switched to
>  >  >  at&t solely for the Neo.  But most people aren't willing to do that
>  >  >  (and most are locked into contracts with a $250+ early termination
>  >  >  fee).
>  >  >
>  >  >  So, have you considered making a CDMA version of the Neo?  I think
>  >  >  that'd about double your sales in the US.
>  >  >
>  >  >  -Steven
>  >  >
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>  >  >
>  >
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>
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Re: 3G? What about CDMA?

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Ben Burdette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Steven ** wrote:
>
> > I don't see how GSM is much less "closed" of a network protocol than
> > CDMA (the interchangeable SIM cards being the big difference).  The
> > GSM chip is the most locked down hardware on the Neo.  A CDMA chip
> > would be no different.
> >
> >
>  Actually the situation here IS very different, because of that
> interchangability.  With a GSM phone, its the SIM that allows you on the
> network.  You can (theoretically at least), go down to the T-Mobile store
> and get their bottom-of-the-line 20$ phone, then take it home and put the
> SIM into your neo, with T-Mobile being none the wiser.


I have a SIM from my old T-Mobile phone in my Neo. They DO know it's
not that phone, but they chose to let me on the network anyway. On the
flip side, the iPhone is a GSM phone but (without hacking) it's unable
to be used off the network it was locked to. Even off "big ticket"
items like the iPhone, a lot of GSM phones are shipped with firmware
that prevents it from being used on other networks. In the USA cell
carriers subsidize the purchase of the handset and use the firmware to
incentivize purchasing phones with more features (like SMS or
internet, which they charge for if you utilize).

This situation, IMO, is irrelevant because it's essentially saying
"Any compatible technology used on a provider that lets you use your
phone there works" which is true with both CDMA and GSM. It's the
larger potential pool of devices that ARE compatible, and the larger
pool of providers that DO allow it. Assuming all carriers had similar
policies, and CDMA was the most popular technology, I'd not say the
technology was closed.

It is the mobile ecosystem, viewed worldwide, that would mean less
choice on a CDMA device, not the CDMA technology itself.



>  With CDMA, you will not be able to use your phone on their network unless
> they say ok.

This is also true of GSM. It would be stupid to adopt ANY technology
that didn't give you the ability to reject who could use it. If the
carrier didn't have ultimate control then they'd not be able to boot
non-paying people from using their network. It is not the technology
but the policy of the carriers that allows this movement.

> This means I can't use my old CDMA sprint phone on my new
> verizon account.

I'm assuming that it's POSSIBLE (how often it happens is irrelevant)
to make a device that COULD work on both Sprint or Verizon if their
policies permitted it using CDMA technology. If CDMA isn't compatible
with itself, it's not a single standard.

> If I switch back to sprint, my verizon phone won't work
> anymore.  If openmoko was CDMA but sprint and verizon decide they don't like
> the openness of the openmoko phones, you're SOL.

If T-Mobile in the USA decided not to allow non-Tmobile phones on
their network you'd be JUST as SOL. This is a policy issue and not a
technology one.

>  GSM gives the users choice
> as to what phone they want to run, and takes that choice away from the
> carrier.
>
>
>
> > As far as the aims of the Openmoko project, I don't see how CDMA
> > conflicts with that.  I thought one of the aims of Openmoko was to
> > show people the benefits of opensource, mobile computing.  It seems
> > odd to give people choices over everything but the service provider.
> >
> >
>  You can choose any service provider you want - as long as they are on GSM.
>
>
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Re: FreeRunner Pricing and PVT update

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Lon Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  For quite a while now I've been reading comments from people saying
>  that this issue or that issue is a "deal breaker". I've been reading
>  hardware requests and demands that stretch the gambit from quaint and
>  interesting to just down right silly. If this is the environment in
>  which all FOSS is developed, it's amazing we have a kernel to run it
>  all on. I'm all about presenting and discussing ideas. But the making
>  of demands in this environment is extreme.

This is the same environment. You'll see the same divide between
"consumers" of software and "developers" of it. Community driven
development and thick skin go hand in hand.

>
>   FIC and OM have come up with a hardware platform to meet a
>  predetermined need and market. If someone thinks some major item is
>  missing, create a competitor. Fork the hardware.

Forking is a bad word in "open source" but it's the lifeblood of a
free market. :) I think the release of the CAD files was a pretty
clear indication that Openmoko wants to see, but doesn't want to be
the burden bearer, of customization and innovation in the hardware and
associated accessories.

There's NOTHING wrong with that. Before starting to look down and say
"You people complain too much" keep in mind that most people "voting
with their $currency" understand what's happening. Openmoko will get
my money without a pink/blue/red/green/cloaking case.

>
>   In all fairness though, I think calling the release of the CAD files
>  under appreciated is a little premature.

I think that's a fair assessment. Very few people really understand
the signifigance of that action. Motorola makes quite a bit of money
around their branded accessories and frankly, they're not always top
quality. The same can be said for many others. Openmoko is doing
hardware and software and community building... Let the community and
the fabricators and the entreprenuers do the accessories. I think
Openmoko has the potential to tap into the "Mac Cult" behavior that
Apple taps, though on a smaller scale at first.

I've already got my "bouncing guy in a spinning circle" windshiled
decals being die-cut, anyone want some? :P

> Accessories companies are
>  going to wait to see what the adoption of this phone will be like.
>  Then they will make business decisions about risk versus benefit. If
>  the phone does become "successful", that is moving enough units to
>  make it profitable for FIC and the accessories makers, we will see the
>  CAD files be put to use outside of hobbiests.

Absolutely. Something I really hope to see is companies like iGo (I
have to admit, I like their products!) adopt the "Openmoko Freerunner
compatible" sticker. For some of these manufacturers they can adopt
and "certify" a brand for a few man-hours and the price of a sticker.
They win as they sell sexy, glowing products and Openmoko wins as free
software based phones are adopted by the marketplace.

>
>
>
>
>  On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Hugo Mills <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:07:18AM -0700, steve wrote:
>  >  > One goal of freeing the CAD , freeing the flesh of the phone, was to 
> enable
>  >  > others to seize these opportunities.
>  >  >
>  >  > So, the CAD files for the FreeRunner are out there, before it has even
>  >  > shipped. I think this decision is
>  >  > underappreciated.
>  >
>  >From reading this thread, I think you're right.
>
>
>
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Re: Our new Main page of wiki

[Kevin Dean]

The table colors have too little contrast, I think.  It's readable,
but I have to "force" myself to do so.

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 8:32 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just a vote: I like the old one more.
>
>  Am 17.04.2008 um 12:58 schrieb Ivo Anjo:
>
>
>
> > Hi.
> >
> > Personally, I liked the old one better, and the colors on this one (mainly
> the background color of the tables) are pretty agressive.
> >
> > Ivo
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Brenda Wang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hi, all:
> > Here is the  new  main page of our  wiki.
> > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Test_main_page
> > It will switch to Main page soon.
> > Please feel free to give us your feedback .
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Brenda
> >
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Re: which applications are usable

[Kevin Dean]

I do reviews using the GTA01 and will begin doing reviews on the GTA02
as soon as I have it.

Currently, I use the Neo1973 (GTA01) as my primary phone. Call quality
is decent. There are some stability issues that come and go as the
code is tweaked and such. Just about everything in a default image
that works on the GTA01 works on Freerunner, from what I hear.

Sending and receiving SMS messages works fine. Incoming calls work
fine. Outgoing calls work fine. You can save contacts to your address
book and recall them. You can play some basic games. You can set
reminders in the calendar, use the calculator. Listen to music (mp3
and Vorbis are the only I've tested, but probably others too).

Again, I've not gotten my hands on a Freerunner yet, so assuming
there's not some massive bug and an internal conspiracy to conceal it,
that should be about the same on Freerunner. :)

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Eildert Groeneveld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello List
>
>  with the Freerunner approaching I wonder which applications are currently
>  in a usable status? Apparently, Steve's managed to make a phone call.
>  What about SMS or addressbook? Is there a list somewhere? or does the current
>  qemu download give an impression (its so slow its not really useful)
>
>  greetings
>
>  Eildert
>
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Re: which applications are usable

[Kevin Dean]

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Flyin_bbb8 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Marcus can you please inform me of how long the battery lasts on your neo
> 1973? on average ...

Not Marcus but I have an answer. :) Using the "Dim first, don't lock"
mode which dims the screen after a few seconds and then turns off the
backlight, it's about 5 hours on standby. Less than that if you're
actually using the device.


>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 16:41 +0200, Eildert Groeneveld wrote:
> >
> > > with the Freerunner approaching I wonder which applications are
> currently
> > > in a usable status? Apparently, Steve's managed to make a phone call.
> > > What about SMS or addressbook? Is there a list somewhere? or does the
> current
> > > qemu download give an impression (its so slow its not really useful)
> >
> > Adding to what Kevin said I can say that GPS work very well too. I hae
> > been playing a bit with the software stack and being a great fan of
> > openstreetmap I developed a little mapping software using these maps.
> >
> > If you want to check it out, there are packages for your desktop too,
> > i.e. for Ubuntu, Debian, Suse, Fedora and eeePC.
> >
> > The homepage is http://www.tangogps.org/
> >
> > And I fully agree with Kevin that the Openmoko team has done a good job
> > in bringing a usable set of apps to us: I use my neo 1973 without major
> > probs on a daily basis. Actually I love the web browser links in
> > graphical mode. Beats everything out there ;-)
> >
> > Marcus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: which applications are usable

[Kevin Dean]

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Flyin_bbb8 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanx kevin, that's no good, when does it start warning about low battery?,
> or does it even do that?

It doesn't. This is perhaps my single BIGGEST complaint. I don't
really mind that the battery dies in 5 hours, because I can plug it up
within that window. What bothers the hell out of me is that the phone
runs itself into the ground to the point where it can't even be turned
on without an hour of slow charging. :( I understand this is a
firmware issue and that at least this last part has been corrected in
the Freerunner.

>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:42 AM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Flyin_bbb8 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Marcus can you please inform me of how long the battery lasts on your
> neo
> > > 1973? on average ...
> >
> > Not Marcus but I have an answer. :) Using the "Dim first, don't lock"
> > mode which dims the screen after a few seconds and then turns off the
> > backlight, it's about 5 hours on standby. Less than that if you're
> > actually using the device.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Marcus Bauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 16:41 +0200, Eildert Groeneveld wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > with the Freerunner approaching I wonder which applications are
> > > currently
> > > > > in a usable status? Apparently, Steve's managed to make a phone
> call.
> > > > > What about SMS or addressbook? Is there a list somewhere? or does
> the
> > > current
> > > > > qemu download give an impression (its so slow its not really useful)
> > > >
> > > > Adding to what Kevin said I can say that GPS work very well too. I hae
> > > > been playing a bit with the software stack and being a great fan of
> > > > openstreetmap I developed a little mapping software using these maps.
> > > >
> > > > If you want to check it out, there are packages for your desktop too,
> > > > i.e. for Ubuntu, Debian, Suse, Fedora and eeePC.
> > > >
> > > > The homepage is http://www.tangogps.org/
> > > >
> > > > And I fully agree with Kevin that the Openmoko team has done a good
> job
> > > > in bringing a usable set of apps to us: I use my neo 1973 without
> major
> > > > probs on a daily basis. Actually I love the web browser links in
> > > > graphical mode. Beats everything out there ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Marcus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
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> > > > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > >  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> > >
> > >
> >
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> >
>
>
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Re: which applications are usable

[Kevin Dean]

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Bastian Muck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  To this i have a little question. I didn't find the ESC-key (which is
> essentially in vi(m)) and i also didn't find the CTRL-key. Whithout this a
> simple tail can make you to kill the hole window.

The current keyboard in the Openmoko images is not the keyboard that
will be shipped. The full QWERTY keyboard had a bug that broke
important functions, so the multi-tap input was dropped in as a
replacement. Because this doesn't have a (-) or a CTRL or a / key,
it's essentially useless for terminal.

Raster is working on a replacement keyboard. When it ends up in the
images is unknown.

>
>  Greetings Bastian
>
>  Flemming Richter Mikkelsen schrieb:
>
>
>  | On 4/18/08, *Eildert Groeneveld* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]  PROTECTED]>>
> wrote:
>  |
>  | On Friday 18 April 2008, Tim Shannon wrote:
>  | > I love that the terminal is one of the requisite applications.
> This is
>  | > definitely a phone I'm looking forward to.
>  |
>  | Indeed, just imagine running vi on a phone!! The ultimate!
>  | Eildert
>  |
>  |  | At least if you use an external keyboard!
>  | And use vim (vi improved) instead of vi so you get the added
> functionality (e.g. code completion is nice when you don't have an external
> keyboard) and syntax highlighing (since it can be difficoult to detect
> typo's) :)
>  | --
>  | Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>  |
>  | Join the FSF as an Associate Member at:
>  | http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774>
>  |
>  | -
>
>  |
>  | ___
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>  | http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>  Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
>  Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
>  iD8DBQFICMSFlYiDScJJ+7QRAoY7AKDEAyoBpY1ZPrSFx9o/zc/q3Z3bqQCglfJj
>  otnJQ3ntO/AkmbRnBcxg0/Y=
>  =E696
>  -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
>
>
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Re: Don't ship GTA02v5 without the rework

[Kevin Dean]

I have to say, I'm baffled by that sentiment. GTA02v5 is fully
functional, the only "problem" is that it's not as efficient as it
could be, just like every other product on the planet.

For those saying "wait another month" I've got a different arguement -
let's NOT hire people to make the changes, purchase the equipment
needed to do it. If a missing transistor is really upsetting someone
that much, the open nature of Openmoko works in your favor because you
can wait until the units you consider "defective" are sold out. I, for
one, don't want to pay the costs (and I will, if Openmoko decides to
wait and add the transistor for goodwill) that will be incurred and
spread over the rest of the product line. I'm QUITE happy to take a v5
and go along on my merry way.

It is quite possible to make your statement by NOT purchasing a v5
unit and waiting for a v6. Choosing to wait yourself, without passing
the delay and costs onto everyone else is the most ethical, polite way
to solve the problem.

-Kevin

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:38 PM, Steven Le Roux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I totally agree with you.
>
> I understand everybody is happy to see the neo coming, but don't forget the
> goal :) : to provides the best free phones.
>
> It wouldn't be pleasant for us to by a phone, knowing there is a known issue
> with optimisation of  power consumption and LED stuff..
>
> I understand the rush ;) but we can wait...
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:26 AM, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > OpenMoko team:
> >
> > It's crazy to consider shipping the GTA02v5 without the rework
> > to solve the current leakage issue.
> >
> > Yes, people are REALLY anxious to get this phone. But shipping
> > a few thousand of units that do not meet spec on standby time
> > is a Bad Idea.
> >
> > pull up your socks and do the rework
> > if that delays launch by 30 days so be it.
> > besides the firmware will be better by then as well. ;)
> >
> > -ron jeffries.
> >
> > CONTEXT:
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "List for Openmoko community discussion"
> 
> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:30:59 -0700
> > Subject: Re: Freerunner will be GTA02v5 or GTA02v6? (was: Fwd: Future
> Button and LED software spec)
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > It sounds to me as the problem is easy for those of us that knows a
> little
> > > electronics. If I get one that leaks current, I will start soldering!
> > >
> > >
> > > Does anybody know if the fix Werner is talking about, will be done for
> all
> > > GTA02v5 PCB's? If it really will be a fix for it, it will not be any
> problem
> > > at all.
> >
> > Yes maybe it can be fixed.  But is the fix documented yet?
> >
> > Another way to look at it: if the fix can be done without a PCB
> > change, then why not get the factory to do the rework (swapping
> > transistors or whatever) before they are shipped?  How much would it
> > cost to get that done in China?
> >
> > --
> > Ron K. Jeffries
> > http://blog.eronj.com
> > http://twitter.com/RonKJeffries
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Steven Le Roux
> Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Terminology (was: Charging Neo Freerunner via USB port)

[Kevin Dean]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Erland Lewin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2008/4/19, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > Feature phones only differ between talk time and standby time.
> > For us, it's a bit more complicated, since we have more modes.
> >
> > Can we agree on the following:
> >
> > usage time = CPU is powered on, lots of peripherals have power and you're
> > actually talking and doing lots of things.
> >
> > standby time = CPU is powered on, but the display and most peripherals are
> off
> > to save power. You are doing something that requires the CPU to be on
> though.
> >
> > suspend time = CPU is powered off. only gsm (and RTC and some other wakeup
> > sources) are listening for events.
>
> Why can't we keep the existing terminology?

As you're going to state here, not everyone agrees on what the
"existing terminology" means. You can call it whatever you want as
long as everyone using the term understands what the terms mean.
Mickey's terms clear up the ambiguity.

>
> I think what you refer to as 'suspend time' should really be called 'standby
> time', since it is how most people think of it - how long will the battery
> last when the phone is not being used.

That makes assumptions that we can't be sure of yet. We should work to
clear up those assumptions first.

>
> What you call 'usage time' I think we could keep calling 'talk time', since
> it seems to me to be the same thing, and is in common use.

Broadcasting a GSM signal uses more power than playing Sudoko so the
times will be different. I don't think either term here really clears
that up.

How much talk time does the Freerunner currently get? This means while
broadcasting GSM signal. How much usage time can the Freerunner get,
for instance playing sudoku? What is the frame in between? Could
someone expect 10 hours of "sit on my desk while I sleep and have the
phone do nothing"? Does this drop to 6 hours when playing music via a
bluetooth headset (since it's processing audio and broadcasting over
BT). What battery life could someone expect while making a call from
full charge to battery death while using a Bluetooth headset?

Perhaps a battery life FAQ might make more sense... I'll see if I
can't start one.

>
> What you call 'standby time' doesn't seem like a very important state to me,
> I would think that for most people the phone would either be used (what you
> call 'usage time'), or in your pocket or whatever, when you want maximum
> battery time, what you call 'suspend time'.

There's a critical difference, but exactly how requires more
information. The GTA01 currently can't accept incoming calls while in
suspend, so for the "average person" suspend is useless since
suspending does NOTHING except essentially decrease boot time - it has
the same functionality as turning the device off and uses more power.

Can the Freerunner resume on incoming call? If so, someone could
suspend the device and toss it in their pocket/purse, reap maximum
battery life AND keep the primary functionality intact. If it can't
resume on incoming call, I'd agree it's essentially useless.

> Maybe we could call it 'music
> playback time', since that seems to be one usage of this mode.
>
> /Erland
>
>
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Re: 99

[Kevin Dean]

I'm happy paying $399 for all ye who feel the need to pay $400 to make
it even. :P Though, I'll hop on the even bandwagon if it's dropped as
long as Openmoko makes profit. :)

If you really want to pay more, you could set up a "Tip a Developer" program...

-Kevin

On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Daniel Selinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:11:59 +0200
>  "Alexey Feldgendler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  >
>  > The prices for GTA02 and the debug board are $399 and $99,
>  > respectively. While there's nothing wrong with charging exactly 99
>  > dollars for something, the practice of reducing a round price by one
>  > dollar, AKA  is
>  > often associated with cheap marketing tricks, trying to make the
>  > price look less than it is and so on. In my opinion, admitting that a
>  > hundred is a hundred and charging $400 and $100 for GTA02 and the
>  > debug board would fit better into the OpenMoko spirit of openness and
>  > transparency. Especially when most of the other prices out there end
>  > with 95 or 99, a round price tag will send a message: "We're honest
>  > with you and aren't messing with your mind like others do".
>  >
>  >
>
>  nice thought
>  /sign
>
>
>
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Re: Progress on GTA01 power management issues !

[Kevin Dean]

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Fredrik Markström
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Still no official comments on this issue ?
>
>  Until this is resolved I advice newcomers to be careful before
>  spending $399 on another piece of potentially
>  useless hardware (GTA02).

If you think your GTA01 is useless, I'll buy it from you for $5 USD...
I'd love to have a spare battery for mine. I use the Neo1973 as my
primary phone and digital audio player. Furthermore, it's powered by
Free Software except for the bits that I'm explicitly informed are
NOT. Respecting my property rights is quite valuable IMO. The device
is functional enough to be used for me.

I'd advise ANYONE making value judgements to look at the definition of
"value". It's inherently different for everyone, which is why the
ideas of "commerce" and "sale" and "free markets" work - because the
value of a good is different for one person than another and when that
exchange of values benefits BOTH parties, it is a "good" sale.

Power management issues are well known on GTA01 and there are people
who still think the device is a good value, myself included.  People
should evaluate their own uses and decide from themselves. Keep in
mind that without selling the Freerunner, there won't BE an "improved"
device.

> From my point of view openmoko might be as
>  silent and unresponsive, using "busy
>  with nextgen hardware" as an excuse with any future hardware revision.

As opposed to every other device manufacturer? I've never had Nokia or
Motorola or Samsung or anyone else fix my problems right away. One the
flip side, Openmoko is pretty clear about what's happening.
Furthermore, they were also pretty clear when I entered my credit card
information into the online storefront that there WOULD be issues with
the device and that it was a developer's edition.

>
>  The iPhone is not open but at least useful, and also $399 !

And yet, this is the Openmoko community list, full of people who are
interested in Openmoko products. Some of us don't care one iota about
the iPhone because (again, that value thing) it's not worth our money.
For me, I'd not pay to be in Apple's golden cage - I'm sure others
fell the same way. For other people, iPhone is a social cliche -
useless because it's popular. If the iPhone is better than a product
offered by Openmoko, spend your money on an iPhone instead.

>
>  /Fredrik
>
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Re: 99

[Kevin Dean]

For the record, my "tip a programmer" thing was almost pure sarcasm. I
find this discussion to be amusing by the level of absurdity in it.

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 9:57 AM, ramsesoriginal
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Ok, so first, i also would like to see 400$ instead of 399$, because
>  it's simply a matter of being honest.

How is Openmoko charging $399 dishonest?  Do you REALLY believe there
are people on the planet who are such consumer sheep that they'd part
with $399 but would be able to "resist" a $400 product?

I could PERHAPS see your arguement if Openmoko's advertising said
something like "Affordably priced under four-hundred dollars" I'd
think that MIGHT (and even that hesitantly) be misleading. This hasn't
been said. "The FreeRunner will ship from Openmoko.com at $399." is
what was said, a simple statement of fact.

In the end, the price is $399. If you want to pay that, cool. Do so.
If you have a problem with that price, don't buy it. It is a decision
EVERY potential buyer will have to make based on their own criteria.
No human being can think for another.

>
>  Then the bounty for code: i would rather see bountyes for bugfixes:
>  everyoen likes to implement new features, but nobody lieks maintaining
>  code. Another way of "Bounty for developers" that I really would like
>  is that the developers put there hoem adress somewhere in the wiki,
>  and then the user who like the feature can send him a postcard/thank
>  you card. A bit like Linus Torvalds originally made for Linux. That's
>  something that really would push me, as a developer, to do more. Maybe
>  it would help even more then a sporadic 5$ on my paypal account.
>
>  And for the openmoko subscription/club/frequent buyers: This coul be a
>  really great idea. A yearly membership fee, but for three
>  recommendations you get it for free (so if I recommend the phone to
>  three people i get the membership for free), and members get access to
>  a membership card, a pouch and a special homepage, where they can
>  browse all openmoko community created products and maybe get a 10%
>  discount or something like that. And at the yearly OpenmokoCon (and we
>  sure are going to make it, aren't we?) the members get reserved places
>  at the talks :D
>
>  Jsut my two EuroCents
>
>  --
>  My corner of the web: http://blog.ramsesoriginal.org
>
>
>
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Re: Openmoko sounds, Motto

[Kevin Dean]

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Georg Michelitsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Concerning the soundset (if I understood right you meant something like a
> standard sound for the phone-startup as a lot of other companies pratice) I
> think a human voice saying "Openmoko - Open mobile communication" would be a
> nice alternation to "Free your phone" or "open. mobile. free" .. Even if I
> like the last two better as a motto I think that the first one suits better
> for some kind of system sound..

I personally think a human voice is a bad choice. There's NO point in
making a universal sound if it won't be universally understood.
Openmoko's uses may well extend beyond those we think of right now
which may extend into areas that wouldn't recognize (or worse, would
find offensive) a human voice. I recall someone once raising the
question of "Would a south east asian rice farmer understand the
meaning of the house icon, given that his house looks nothing like
it?"

>
>  cu, Georg
>
>
>
>
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Re: What US plans are people using?

[Kevin Dean]

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 5:33 PM, Travis Tabbal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks for the info. T-Mobile seems to have good coverage here. It sounds
> like the Total Internet plan is the way to go. I'm looking forward to the
> release of Freerunner. I love being able to add/change software on my phone.
> I've been waiting to buy a new phone for Freerunner. Has the 850Mhz issue
> been resolved?

That issues actually confuses the hell out of me. :)

Per the wiki "Will a modification to my Neo 1973 (GTA01bv4) be
possible? As of Feb 08, it has been confirmed by OpenMoko that this is
not possible" 
(http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/US_850_band_users_wanting_to_sell_Neo)

This implies that a GTA01bv4 can NOT use 850 mhz. But my Neo1973 works
PERFECTLY in the USA, which means either it DOES support 850mhz OR
that the LACK of 850mhz is irrelevant.


>
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Re: GTA03 wish list (was: What US plans are people using?)

[Kevin Dean]

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   One of the objectives of openmoko is to no need to use the stylus
>   at all ...  When devels talk about "mokofy" (port to openmoko) some
>   aplication one of the chalenges is to use it with out stylus.

Either this is NOT a real goal of Openmoko or the developers suck at
it. There are SEVERAL applications on Openmoko that require a stylus
(many of the games, for instance). As far as I know, the criteria
"Openmoko apps must be usable with fingers" has never been set.


>
>  http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016014.html

Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but the person who said that isn't a
developer, let alone someone with the authority to ensure the
developers comply with that directive on Openmoko released
applications.

>
>  I was VERY pleased the other day to read this, as I find it fiddly to mess
> around with a stylus.

I hate the stylus with a PASSION too. In my opinion, this is NOT a
GTA03 issue but a GTA02 issue. There's debate ove the box contents of
the Freerunner. If the box does NOT include a stylus, I think the
software applications MUST be written in a way that is functional
without it. I'm of the opinion that everything needed to use the
device must be included in the box. You don't NEED an SD card to use
the Freerunner but you DO need a battery. If the software that will be
"Openmoko" REQUIRES a stylus, I think it's really a crappy thing to do
for Openmoko NOT to ship one with the box.

Making this decision is, in my opinion, important NOW.

>
>  Despite previous phones I've owned having stylus holders, I have always
> lost them. I guess a stylus holder simply doesn't actually _hold_ so well.

The idea of a device that "does everything" is to eliminate the need
to carry around an address book, an ipod, a GPS navigation device, a
calculator and so on. Without a way to tuck the stylus away it's
adding to the number of items a person has to carry around (and
track). I personally carry my Neo, my wallet and my car keys (which
actually CAN work as a stylus, as long as I'm not driving). I don't
carry a pen and I don't carry a stylus. A dependancy on the stylus on
the applications would INCREASE the number of things I have to carry
around (which to me, decreases the value of a Neo).

>
>  Apart from this, it always seems to me much more natural to use my fingers,
> but of course on previous phones the on-screen buttons are too small.
>
>  I would love a link, if anyone has one, to official developer documentation
> stating the no-stylus requirement.


As far as I know, there isn't one. In fact, I think the guildelines
for application development are either non-existant, incomplete or
flat out disregarded. This is something that raises a bit of
uncertainty... What toolkits are supposed to be used? (GTK is in the
default image, but Illume is an Openmoko project that uses EFL...
Should EFL be considered a part of the default Openmoko stack? What UI
conventions are there? Some Openmoko apps use popups (like adding a
new contact from dialer) where as the vast majority of others use a
tab based system (like adding a new playlist in Media Player).

>From my perspective, there's not much organization on what actually
should happen on Openmoko to keep things consistant (keeping in mind
that the KDE/Gnome working together like crap is a BIG reason
GNU/Linux looses mass appeal - people demand consistancy. It's why
Apple's products are instantly recognizable and revered for being
"sexy".)


>
>  Stroller.
>
>
>
>
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Re: GTA03 wish list (was: What US plans are people using?)

[Kevin Dean]

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Steven **
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think the games were ported.  I thought they were just a
>  simply cross-compile to show that they would work on Openmoko.
>
>  I think the intention is that you should be able to do most things
>  without a stylus.  It says essentially that on
>  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Applications#Overview
>
>  That said, this is opensource!  You can't force every developer to
>  design their program for finger operation.

A point of clarification... I'm not referring to every app, I'm
referring specifically to the applications that Openmoko will be
releasing. Perhaps this is an incorrect assumption, but I am under the
impression that Openmoko Inc. will be writing and releasing software
to do the things their hardware devices are advertised as being able
to do. They say "GPS Navigation" and I assume Openmoko Inc. will
provide customers with a GPS navigation application. Same for dialer
(since the device is advertised as being able to make phone calls) and
so on. the device isn't advertised as a home automation remote
control, but it MIGHT be if the user decided to go beyond what the
consumer device is being sold to do.

Someone can write an application in Qt 4.4 and SAY it's a Gnome
application, but it's not. Likewise, if it doesn't conform to the
guidelines specified for Openmoko it's not "really" an Openmoko app,
if that makes sense.

>  Some app just might not be
>  usable without a stylus and that's up to the developer.  If you don't
>  like it, modify the source and change the GUI.

Keep in mind that Freerunner is designed to be a mass market product.
That's very true that this can be done but making that action a
REQUIREMENT for consistant applications is directly opposite the ideas
of a mass market device.

>
>  The one thing I've written[1] was specifically designed to be
>  "finger-friendly" as I don't intend to carry a stylus around with me
>  either.
>
>  -Steven
>
>  [1] http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/moko-sudoku/
>
>
>  On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >
>  >  >   One of the objectives of openmoko is to no need to use the stylus
>  >  >   at all ...  When devels talk about "mokofy" (port to openmoko) some
>  >  >   aplication one of the chalenges is to use it with out stylus.
>  >
>  >  Either this is NOT a real goal of Openmoko or the developers suck at
>  >  it. There are SEVERAL applications on Openmoko that require a stylus
>  >  (many of the games, for instance). As far as I know, the criteria
>  >  "Openmoko apps must be usable with fingers" has never been set.
>
>
>
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Re: Freerunner AC adaptor.. Kevin dean you there?

[Kevin Dean]

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:47 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> my razr charger draws 850.
>
>  I haven't check my igo charger, Kevin is the IGO usb  100ma or 500ma?


This may be a trick question... I don't have an AC iGo, I have a DC
iGO car charger.

http://info.igo.com/mobility/datasheets/auto8.pdf

>
>  -Original Message-
>  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ian douglas
>  Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:37 PM
>  To: List for Openmoko community discussion
>  Subject: Re: Freerunner AC adaptor
>
>  Just as a comparison, since my workplace just got me a Blackberry World
>  Phone (8830), here's a photo of the power adapters that come with it,
>  which I guess connect to the standard American power plug.
>
>  http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/2435261066/
>
>  For what it's worth, the Blackberry charger also ends in a USB plug, but
>  I didn't check the wall plug portion to see how many mA it draws.
>
>  -id
>
>
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Re: Freerunner AC adaptor.. Kevin dean you there?

[Kevin Dean]

So... Here's the magical question. How would an "average user" like
myself find that out without buying equipment to test it if the
manufacturer didn't include actualy numbers (or in my case, if the
manufacturer specifies a range of possibilities)?

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:59 PM, ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My new Blackberry 8830 charger draws 500mA
>
>  -id
>
>
>
>
>
> > For what it's worth, the Blackberry charger also ends in a USB plug, but I
> didn't check the wall plug portion to see how many mA it draws.
> >
> > -id
> >
>
>
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Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!

[Kevin Dean]

I've not had ANYONE comment "it's ugly" but just about everyone I've
handed it to said "It's HUGE".

I personally LOVE it, I'm huge too. :)

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Lowell Higley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It was the GTA01.. the first pics I saw of the GTA02 was last week.  I
> showed both colors of the GTA01.  I got the impression was it was the shape
> that was a turn off but I am not sure because I never asked for that kind of
> detail.  Although I do have to admit I'd never heard it called a buttplug
> before.  That's an interesting observation.
>
> If I were to make three recommendation for GTA03 (or whatever the consumer
> version is going to be), it would be "focus group, focus group, focus
> group."
>
> L
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > > Nine out of ten "typical consumers" I show it to think it's ugly and
> wouldn't buy it because of looks alone.
> > >
> >
> > Are you showing them a black one?  Its a lot sexier than the gta01 in my
> opinion.
> >
> > But, that doesn't matter: the most common feedback I get is that, in spite
> of external appearances, even the GUI is horrendously ugly too ..
> >
> > ;
> > --
> > Jay Vaughan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
>
>
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Re: Kentucky / Indiana Group Order

[Kevin Dean]

I figured that the person who started a KY/IN group would be from
Louisville or New Albany and not from Indy, Fort Wayne or Lexington.

Keep in mind when forming the groups that if it still needs to be
shipped (as opposed to physically delivered) there isn't much savings.
You're saving $30 by buying in groups - if you spend $20 in shipping
or gas, you're not really getting that great of a deal.

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri April 25 2008 3:30:13 pm Geoff Ruscoe wrote:
>  > Louisville, KY
>  >
>  > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Joseph Jon Booker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  >
>  > wrote:
>  > > On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:16:09 -0400
>  > >
>  > > "Geoff Ruscoe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > > > Anyone from around here interested in getting a group order together?
>  > >
>  > > Where in IN/KY are you guys? Is Chicago too far away for this group?
>  > >
>  > > --
>  > > Joseph Booker
>
>  I'm in Kokomo, pretty much right between you both.  It's up to you guys 
> wether
>  you want to all meet in Indiana or have separate groups for each state.
>
>
>
>  --
>  
>  Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  http://onedollarlinux.com
>  BLOG - http://onedollarlinux.com/personal/
>
>  Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
>  See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
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Re: Freerunner AC adaptor.. Kevin dean you there?

[Kevin Dean]

Using Bobby's application the iGo charged fast charges my Neo1973 and
it doesn't set fire to my Element. That's "good enough" in my book. :)

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 6:10 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just plug it in and see if smoke comes out.
>
>
>  -Original Message-
>  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean
>
> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:07 PM
>  To: List for Openmoko community discussion
>  Subject: Re: Freerunner AC adaptor.. Kevin dean you there?
>
>
>
> So... Here's the magical question. How would an "average user" like
>  myself find that out without buying equipment to test it if the
>  manufacturer didn't include actualy numbers (or in my case, if the
>  manufacturer specifies a range of possibilities)?
>
>  On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:59 PM, ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  wrote:
>  > My new Blackberry 8830 charger draws 500mA
>  >
>  >  -id
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > > For what it's worth, the Blackberry charger also ends in a USB plug, but
>  I
>  > didn't check the wall plug portion to see how many mA it draws.
>  > >
>  > > -id
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  >  ___
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>  >  community@lists.openmoko.org
>  >  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  >
>
>  ___
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>
>
>  ___
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Shipping Specs for Freerunner (Was: Group Sales: U.S. Midwest area)

[Kevin Dean]

I notice that certain groups in the USA are consolidating for 10-pack
purchases. Unfortunately, some of the regions being covered are bigger
than some entire nations in Europe. While I can't be sure this is the
case, I can't help but think that joining in a regional 10-pack ONLY
works if it costs LESS to ship or pick-up your device.

Are there any size or weight dimensions known about the Freerunner
packages? How much will the 10-pack weigh? How much will a single
using weight?

Assuming you found 10 people to each chip in for a 10 pack you'd get a
Freerunner for $369 USD and save $30 USD. This assumes that the person
getting the Freerunners doesn't charge you to ship it, doesn't charge
a handling fee, doesn't screw you out of your money. If shipping is
$10 then that drops your savings to $20. If (like I suspect) the
Freerunner SINGLE unit costs about $20 USD to ship via UPS your
savings really drops to about $10 over buying directly from Openmoko.

Openmoko guys! Can you give us the specs so that those interested in
bulk purchases can figure out the logistics of shipping versus
individual sales and then factor that into the regions that will be
used to organize bulk purchases?

Thanks.

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Re: Shipping Specs for Freerunner (Was: Group Sales: U.S. Midwest area)

[Kevin Dean]

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Steven Kurylo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  If you search the archives, Steve already gave us the specs so you
>  could do this.

Can you drop any more hints on where specifically to find this? I'm
subscribed to all of the Openmoko lists except kernel-dev and even
considering that I know it came from Steve, that's a lot of crap to
wade through.

Thanks!

>
>  --
>  Steven Kurylo
>
>
>
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Re: Shipping Specs for Freerunner (Was: Group Sales: U.S. Midwest area)

[Kevin Dean]

That's quite useful, thanks!

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Tomas Di Domenico <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think this is what  you're looking for:
>
>  http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html
>
>
>
>  On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Geoff Ruscoe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > Its on community for April ... Not sure I remember which thread.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >
>  > >
>  > > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Steven Kurylo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  > wrote:
>  > >
>  > > >  If you search the archives, Steve already gave us the specs so you
>  > > >  could do this.
>  > >
>  > > Can you drop any more hints on where specifically to find this? I'm
>  > > subscribed to all of the Openmoko lists except kernel-dev and even
>  > > considering that I know it came from Steve, that's a lot of crap to
>  > > wade through.
>  > >
>  > > Thanks!
>  > >
>  > > >
>  > > >  --
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > >  Steven Kurylo
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > >  ___
>  > > >  Openmoko community mailing list
>  > > >  community@lists.openmoko.org
>  > > >  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  > > >
>  > >
>  > > ___
>  > > Openmoko community mailing list
>  > > community@lists.openmoko.org
>  > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  > Geoff Ruscoe
>  > Sigma Visions Computer Consulting
>  > ___
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>  >  community@lists.openmoko.org
>  >  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  >
>  >
>
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Re: Shipping Specs for Freerunner (Was: Group Sales: U.S. Midwest area)

[Kevin Dean]

Okay, so I just did some number crunching using the information Steve
gave and honestly, there's no reason at all the 10-packs need to be
broken up by region.

It costs $14.40 to ship a 10-pack from Fremont, CA to Frederick, MD
where I live (which is pretty close to "across the country").

$3,690 + $14.40 = 3704.4 delivered or $370.44 per phone before shipping.

Here's the beautiful thing. Shipping a single unit (from a 10 pack)
back, from Frederick, MD to Fremont, CA is $9.95 by UPS Ground which
would bring the total cost per unit to $380.39.

Assuming that Openmoko's Fremont shipping place is NOT getting a
volume discount then the savings over a single unit would be $28.56 if
shipped ACROSS COUNTRY both ways.

For fun, I decided what it would cost to ship the unit from home to
work (as might be done if buying regionally) in Alexandria, VA. The
diffrerence in shipping is barely noticable, that a shipment of less
than 60 miles makes it less than $2 cheaper.

The point is, I horribly overestimated UPS shipping costs and there's
actually quite a bit of savings from going in on a 10-pack. That said,
I also discovered that doing regional purchases doesn't save much
money over doing national purchases. Guys in groups falling short
could easily pick up a small group across the country and cash in on
the bulk savings. People picking up their phones (perhaps at a LUG
meet) can even score an extra $8 to $10 savings over having it
shipped.

Neat. :)

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's quite useful, thanks!
>
>
>
>  On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Tomas Di Domenico <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > I think this is what  you're looking for:
>  >
>  >  http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-April/016379.html
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >  On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:37 PM, Geoff Ruscoe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >  > Its on community for April ... Not sure I remember which thread.
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  >  >
>  >  > >
>  >  > > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Steven Kurylo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  >  > wrote:
>  >  > >
>  >  > > >  If you search the archives, Steve already gave us the specs so you
>  >  > > >  could do this.
>  >  > >
>  >  > > Can you drop any more hints on where specifically to find this? I'm
>  >  > > subscribed to all of the Openmoko lists except kernel-dev and even
>  >  > > considering that I know it came from Steve, that's a lot of crap to
>  >  > > wade through.
>  >  > >
>  >  > > Thanks!
>  >  > >
>  >  > > >
>  >  > > >  --
>  >  > >
>  >  > >
>  >  > >
>  >  > > >  Steven Kurylo
>  >  > > >
>  >  > > >
>  >  > > >
>  >  > > >  ___
>  >  > > >  Openmoko community mailing list
>  >  > > >  community@lists.openmoko.org
>  >  > > >  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  >  > > >
>  >  > >
>  >  > > ___
>  >  > > Openmoko community mailing list
>  >  > > community@lists.openmoko.org
>  >  > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  >  > >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >  > --
>  >  > Geoff Ruscoe
>  >  > Sigma Visions Computer Consulting
>  >  > ___
>  >  >  Openmoko community mailing list
>  >  >  community@lists.openmoko.org
>  >  >  http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>  >  >
>  >  >
>  >
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Re: Group Sales, distribution model

[Kevin Dean]

Hi Dale,

I just made a post to that other list and broke it down. It's good
news in general, even shipping it there's about a $28 savings. There's
even a decent savings if you combine groups anywhere in the country.
Mostly coast to cost single unit shipment is about $10 and shipping
"locally" (i.e. about 50 miles) is about $8.50 so shipping from Austin
to Dallas isn't MUCH cheaper than shipping Austin to Duluth. Certainly
doing that would save you money over not buying a 10-pack.

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/016671.html

-Kevin

On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 6:11 PM, Dale Schumacher
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> As Kevin notes, the marginal savings on a 10-pack is pretty thin.  For
> planning purposes size and weight details are useful, but I thought they
> were posted previously.
>
> Currently there are 4 people showing interest in Austin, TX and 1 in Dallas,
> TX.  This does not include the 2 current Neo1973 owners, who have not
> expressed a desire to be part of this 10-pack.  If we get enough interest
> for a 10-pack, I am assuming that people will either pick up their device in
> person, or pay for additional shipping, at their option.  If that is not
> cost effective for them, and it very well may not be in the case of
> re-shipping, then they should order directly.  I will be ordering directly
> if there is not sufficient local interest.  The individual in Dallas may
> have reason to visit Austin, or other means of obtaining cost-effective
> transportation for his device.  If not, then I'm sure he will also order
> directly.
>
> Clearly details like these must be worked out for each local group, but
> should be done OFF LIST.  I've described my expectations as simply an
> example of the choices to be made.
>
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: "Kevin Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > ...
> >
> > Are there any size or weight dimensions known about the Freerunner
> > packages? How much will the 10-pack weigh? How much will a single
> > using weight?
> >
> > ...
> >
> > Openmoko guys! Can you give us the specs so that those interested in
> > bulk purchases can figure out the logistics of shipping versus
> > individual sales and then factor that into the regions that will be
> > used to organize bulk purchases?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
>
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Re: Wiki distorted in Firefox 3?

[Kevin Dean]

Iceweasel 3 shows the sidebar moved to the bottom.

On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 7:36 AM, Steven Le Roux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:20 PM, MartinG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On 5/5/08, Tomas Gustavsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I'm running Firefox 3 Beta 5 in Ubuntu 8.04 and the OpenMoko wiki menu
> > >  (the one to the left) is placed a long way down (instead of at the
> > >  top). Is this a Firefox bug or a css problem?
> >
> > Same goes for the Opera browser [1] - the menu comes after the rest of
> > the text, down to the right. I think it has been like this for a long
> > time, and for many versions of opera (9.x). I now use 9.50 Beta 2, and
> > the problem persists.
> >
> > I think the problem was there also when the wiki was bug free (see
> > validator.w3.org).
> >
> > best,
> > MartinG
> >
> >
> > [1] http://www.opera.com
> >
> >
> >
>
> hmm :)
>
> I use swiftfox in 3 series since month and I was believing it was normal :)
>
> Looking it  with iceweasel 2* show me the menu on top effectively
>
>
> --
> Steven Le Roux
> Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: microSD support

[Kevin Dean]

It's also worth noting that the 32GB limit is also artificial. 2048GB
is the technical limit for SDHC, if I recall correctly.

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 4:23 PM, Stefan Misch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Crane, Matthew wrote:
>>
>> The SD card association has limtied the size of sdhc to 32gb, the max
>> size of a fat32 system.
>
> I just want to give a short note that this is not true. Fat32 supports
> partition size of up to 2TiB. Microsoft artificially limited Windows 2000
> and following to be able to create Fat32 partitions of max 32GiB. Using
> other tools to create them (such as "mkfs.vfat") it's still possible to
> create those partitions. And Windows reads and writes to them.
>
> Of course now that there's a reasonable stable NTFS access from Linux it
> doesn't matter that much anymore but a few years back this was quite a pain
> in the ass.
>
> just my 0.02€
> Stefan
>
>
>>  No doubt there's a lot of crappy SD cards out there that don't comply
>> well to standard interfaces though, but unless you're really really
>> skimping there's likely nothing to worry about with any common microsd
>> cards.
>>  You could even support larger cards because we aren't limited to fat32
>> on a linux phone.
>>  But has anybody found an SD card that doesn't work with existing
>> hardware??   I only wish I had hardware so I can't test the few cards I
>> have..  Matt
>>
>>  
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Tabbal
>> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 9:52 AM
>> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
>> Subject: Re: microSD support
>>
>>
>> I think he's asking if the phone will support SDHC, which is required
>> for larger cards and many older devices do not support. Or perhaps if
>> 8GB in particular has been tested. It would be nice to know exactly what
>> is supported, as those 8GB cards are getting cheap lately. We might have
>> to wait for the first phones to ship to know for sure what will or will
>> not work. Right now, only the OM dev team at FIC could test it for sure,
>> and they are kind of busy getting mass production going. I think I'd
>> rather have them do that and test the microSD size limits later.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Crane, Matthew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>From wikipedia entry on current sd cards:
>>
>>Memory capacity = (C_SIZE+1) * 512 K = (222-1+1) * 512 K =
>> (4194304-1+1)
>>* 512K = 2147483648 K = 2048 GB
>>
>>So you're probally good.
>>
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>> Giorgio M.
>>Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:53 AM
>>To: List for Openmoko community discussion
>>Subject: microSD support
>>
>>
>>I know that freerunner will support MicroSD memory.
>>
>>I want know wich capacity it will support?can i use 8GB
>> microSD??
>>
>>what is the limit?
>>
>>thanks
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> 
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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko? (was: Re: Software Status Update)

[Kevin Dean]

>From the Middleware blogposts it's pretty clear that GTK is part of
the platform but that doesn't mean that official apps will be written
in GTK. Was the questioned aimed internally (re: openmoko-* apps) or
more broadly (i.e. to clarify to would-be devs that GTK is no longer
the base)?

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Mo Abrahams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was wondering about that too. Personally I would rather have stuck
> with GTK, but in the grand scheme of things I will be doing less coding
> than other people I imagine.
>
> On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 07:31 -0700, Michael Shiloh wrote:
>> Have we made the decision then to officially move away from GTK? This
>> was asked on the community list awhile ago, and IIRC there has been no
>> "official" answer.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > as we are not shipping any gtk apps... not much of an issue at the moment. 
>> > the
>> > community is free to package up anything they like. :)
>> >
>>
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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

[Kevin Dean]

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Ian Darwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have been using a FreeRunner for a few days with a pre-pre-alpha
> snapshot of the ASU software.

I've done Daily Snapshot Reviews since January. I enjoy bug hunting
and communication. Where can I get this image? Does it run on a
Neo1973?

> For those who have been off-list for a
> while, or who have not been looking at the Wiki much, the April
> Software Update switches the Window Manager from matchbox to
> Enlightenment (E17) and the main applications from the GTK-based apps
> (developed by OpenMoko and OpenedHand) to QTopia (but using X11, of course).
>
> The new phone is in the same case, so it looks and feels a lot like a
> GTA01. I think the partition numbers for dfu-util have changed; newer
> versions of dfu-util allow you to use the partition names instead of the
> numbers. Beware.
>
> The Home Page (aka Launcher) can now be displayed either in an Icon Grid
> (conventional cell phone style, e.g., Blackberry, and the traditional
> QTopia format) or a "slider" style (the latter demonstrated by MokoNinja
> here: http://people.openmoko.org/ninjutsu/freerunner1.4.swf (flash
> required).

For those without Flash, here's a video of the same concept.
http://illume.projects.openmoko.org/illume-vv-01.avi

>
> The small home/current-apps menu has been replaced by a larger
> slide-down top panel, listing the current apps, and containing the time,
> battery panel, GSM on/off, qwerty keyboard on/off, Configuration, and
> the Enlightenment menu.
>
> Neither of the above is, AFAIK, cast in stone.
>
> I must admit I have mixed feelings about the switch from OM/GTK apps to
> QTopia.

I personally had those reservations as well. From a non-technical
standpoint, I think Openmoko "did right by me". I know nothing about
hackability on a code level, but I know my previous dislike of Qtopia
was because of the lack of flexbility from not running on X11. I also
had doubts... Qtopia has been around for a while and never made waves
but Openmoko held promise. I felt making the switch to Qtopia was a
comprimise on that.

However, I don't think so now. The work done to port Qtopia to Xorg
created a LOT of opportunity for the "Open" part of the Openmoko
mission statement to be true. Third part developers have just as much
ability to hack as they do with the 2007.1 stack (arguably more so)
now that the base includes Qtopia but allows for other languages and
toolkits. I think this will be made even easier with the service-based
approach that will expose functionality cleanly across those
toolkits/languages.

>However, I recognize the need to get something "finished" in a
> reasonable time and I infer Sean et al felt the need to go this way;

Sometimes people forget that Openmoko Inc. can't make hackable phones
unless they SELL hackable phones. Hardware isn't free. Staffing,
advertising, fabrication, procurement, shipping, design (et cetera)
costs money. I think everyone here can truly respect that, if not like
it. I'm happy that Openmoko was able to make a decision that will
generate revenue more quickly without comprimising the objectives in
the first place.

> in hindsight, building the whole thing from scratch is a daunting task,
> and something that QTopia has been honing for several years.

Free Software projects have one major strength - the ability to share.
I don't see collaboration and adaptation to be a bad thing at all. I'm
actually kind of glad that Qtopia will be an included part of
Openmoko. Including it doesn't diminish the ability for someone to
write the application they would have liked to see as "Openmoko" but
it does give people who aren't writing apps some more functional
applications.

>
> The QTopia apps do have a somewhat more conventional "cell phone"
> feel to them (see my screenshot of the Contacts "Overview" page here:
> http://www.darwinsys.com/tmp/contacts1.png).

This is good for a mass market product, I think. Having a hackable
phone aimed at end users is a good way to go. For the users who never
want to tweak, let it be familiar. For users who are fine hacking,
give them the power to. With the expansions of Qtopia by the Om dev
team, I think that balance it being struck.

>
> So, I think we're in good hands here. On to the "experience".
>
> Short form: functionally, it works.  Among other things, the phone wakes
> up reliably on incoming rings (assuming it's booted and suspended, of
> course), and GSM voice works after a resume.
>
> There are still some minor glitches. I hope I'm not out of line
> reporting these here, given how pre-pre my software is, but Steve has
> been asking me to report on this list since my FreeRunner arrived. I
> remind everybody reading this to remember that this is PRE-PRE-RELEASE
> software. None of this intended as criticism of those who worked under time
> deadline to make this early release ready for the show I was presenting OM
> at!  Nonetheless these are things that I would not like to have 

Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

[Kevin Dean]

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Fredrik Wendt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Travis Tabbal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Carlo E. Prelz wrote:
>>
>> Those apps are the heart of the phone, and I would not want to have
>> C++/QT versions running on my phone.
>>
>> I really don't understand the sentiment there. If the app works well and gets
> the job done, why does it matter what language it's written in or what widget
> toolkit it uses?
>
> Language DOES matter. We use English on this list. I doubt that 50 % of those
> involved and interested in this wonderful project have English as their mother
> tounge.

Programming language. :) Openmoko's new software stack is language
agnostic. A Python app works cleanly with a C++, for instance.

>
> We're all just interacting with and describing the same physical world, yet
> there are so many different ways to go about it and, basically, people tend to
> not be as fluent in more than one or two languages. Hence, if you want people 
> to
> get up to speed and act "naturally" with as few obstacles as possible in the 
> way
> - then you'll want to choose language(s)/environment used carefully.
>
> My two euro cents.
>
> / Fredrik
>
>
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Re: ASU software - pre-pre-release impressions

[Kevin Dean]

ASU is literally the "April Software Update". Three letter acronyms
give it more geek cred. :)

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Richard Reichenbacher
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What does ASU stand for anyways?  It makes me nervous knowing that the
> phones software shares the same initials with my rival University.
>
> Richard

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My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics

[Kevin Dean]

I recieved my Openmoko Freerunner sample this morning via DHL, and
like I did with the Neo1973, I took lots of pictures and blogged about
it.

Some of the pictures aren't the greatest (poor lighting in my bedroom
and a photographer I am not!) but they get the idea across. The write
up also gives a few tidbits of opinion on some of the changes that
seem to get overlooked.

Anyway, the writeup can be read at:

http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunner.html

-Kevin Dean

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Re: My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics

[Kevin Dean]

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Kosa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Awesome! Thank you very much.

No problem. :)

>
> What about the software? Did it came with QTopia?

It actually came installed with an older version of the Openmoko
Stack, with the familiar GTK applications. It didn't work very well
and it's since been erased. :) I am under the impression that the
version shipped once it's on sale will have a small set of Qtopia
based applications working and that updates will be released shortly
after that to add functionality.

So, what came installed on the one I have probably won't be installed
on the ones purchased from Openmoko.com or from a reseller.

> And sorry if I'me getting it wrong (my english is
> not very good) but first you wrote no accesories
> and next you wrote it came with a headset and the
> laser/led/pens stylus. Ain't those accesories?

I wrote "The Freerunner doesn't come without accessories, however."
which is probably a bit confusing. :) My apologies. This means it DID
come with some. "It is not lacking accessories" is probably a more
clear way to phrase that.

>
>
> Well, I have a lot of questions, but I think I'll
> better let those who know how to ask make them.

You're doing well enough. :) Any questions you have might help me
decide what ends up in the reviews I write, so I'd appreciate the
input. :)

>
> Thanks again
>
> Kosa
>
> - Un mundo mejor es posible-
>
> Kevin Dean escribió:
>>
>> I recieved my Openmoko Freerunner sample this morning via DHL, and
>> like I did with the Neo1973, I took lots of pictures and blogged about
>> it.
>>
>> Some of the pictures aren't the greatest (poor lighting in my bedroom
>> and a photographer I am not!) but they get the idea across. The write
>> up also gives a few tidbits of opinion on some of the changes that
>> seem to get overlooked.
>>
>> Anyway, the writeup can be read at:
>>
>>
>> http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunner.html
>>
>> -Kevin Dean
>>
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Re: My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics

[Kevin Dean]

Hrm... I've been having issues off and on too.

I'll tranfer the site to a new server when I get to work, hopefully
that will help.

-Kevin

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 8:14 AM, "Marco Trevisan (Treviño)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kevin Dean wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, the writeup can be read at:
>
> It's about a day (since it has been posted on planet) that I can't connect
> to your site! :(
>
> --
> Treviño's World - Life and Linux
> http://www.3v1n0.net/
>
>
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Re: Video of production device?

[Kevin Dean]

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 8:08 AM, "Marco Trevisan (Treviño)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Vinc Duran wrote:
>>
>> Is there video of the production FreeRunner in use? I found
>> http://illume.projects.openmoko.org/illume-vv-01.avi posted by Kevin
>> Dean on May 19th. Is that video of shipping software or just a concept
>> video?
>
> That's a video about a first Illume implementation by Rasterman, it has been
> posted on illume project page [1] some months ago.

Illume works. It's real code that you can download and compile
yourself. ;) There have been changes, of course, and the real thing
doesn't appear as "polished" as that video does but this is still
relatively new in terms of being functional.

>
>> It would be great if Ian or someone with a production unit could video
>> typical usage of the three main ready applications. Dialer, contacts,
>> and sms if I remember.
>
> I agree!
> Anwyway also few screenshots on scap.linuxtogo.org would be enough for me
> :P.

I poked around briefly yesterday and didn't see a way in ASU to take
screenshots. (I did discover one of my neighbors has an unsecured wifi
access point) so for the time being I'll have to either make bad
quality video or find out what screenshot app is on the 2007.2 images
and install that.

>
>
> [1] http://illume.projects.openmoko.org/
>
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Re: My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics

[Kevin Dean]

My VPS provider was upgrading the hardware and decided to upgrade my
plan because of the interruption. I thank you for the offer, but I
don't think it'll be needed, it seems stuff is loading again now. :)

-Kevin

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Kosa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kevin, David, Marco, Bastian,
>
> I just clicked the link again and I got the page nice and easy.
> If you want me to mirror it somewhere else just let me know.
>
> Kevin, I have a nice server if you want to use it. It'll be an
> honor to host your stuff.
>
> Cheers
>
> Kosa
>
> - Un mundo mejor es posible -
>
> Bastian Muck escribió:
>>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I have the same Problem. :-(
>>
>> Marco Trevisan (Treviño) schrieb:
>> | Kevin Dean wrote:
>> |> Anyway, the writeup can be read at:
>> |
>> | It's about a day (since it has been posted on planet) that I can't
>> connect to your site! :(
>> |
>>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>>
>> iD8DBQFINtpPlYiDScJJ+7QRAkNAAKCJvUe2yBhbPjgN5WRiSaz7PGijvwCeILCm
>> fHERRfdNQiWmbK/MDpuJXJQ=
>> =QcBV
>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>>
>>
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Re: GTA01 battery charge circuit: ID pin?

[Kevin Dean]

Wurp wrote an applet that adds a LOT of functionality to the 1973.
Install the applet on you phone and then force it to fast charge when
connected to a charger and you're golden. Charge on the go, using a
wall charger or a car charger. :)

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script

On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Major A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a GTA01 and want to use it even when I don't carry a computer
> with me. I read that the battery charge circuit of the GTA02 will
> switch to high current if a 48k resistor is present between the
> mini-USB ID pin and ground. Does this also apply to the GTA01, i.e.,
> is it worth hacking up a cable for that model?
>
> Thanks,
>
>  Andras
>
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Re: Qtopia Vs. GTK or both?

[Kevin Dean]

On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Marcel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Am Samstag 24 Mai 2008 14:47:03 schrieb rakshat hooja:
>> I am not to sure how many  people have seen the Neo software stack diagram
>> on the wiki but after looking at it there really should not be a GTK Vs
>> Qtopia argument any more. But I do wonder how Android fits in?
>>
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NeoSoftwareStack
>>
>>
>> Rakshat
>
> Isn't this diagram outdated?

Yep.

http://www.vanille-media.de/images/OpenmokoFramework.png

>
> -Marcel
>
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Re: My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics

[Kevin Dean]

Having had a chance to briefly poke around at the ASU, I think that's
a great choice. :)


On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 2:10 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All of the initial phones that ship from Openmoko.com are planned to ship
> with the legacy version of the Openmoko Stack and it's GTK applications.
>
> The base set of applications, dialer, SMS, and contacts, have been released
> to manufacturing.  So anyone who wants to take this release and build on it
> is free to do so.
>
> We will also make available for download a new set of applications and
> QTopia. I don't have a final release date or gold master date on those
> applications, but what we have shown people in the ASU is definitely pre
> alpha.
>
> Until the new software is ready for manufacturing release the phones will
> ship with the familiar old stack.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Dean
> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 12:10 AM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: My blog, Freerunner FIrst Impressions and some pics
>
> On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Kosa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Awesome! Thank you very much.
>
> No problem. :)
>
>>
>> What about the software? Did it came with QTopia?
>
> It actually came installed with an older version of the Openmoko
> Stack, with the familiar GTK applications. It didn't work very well
> and it's since been erased. :) I am under the impression that the
> version shipped once it's on sale will have a small set of Qtopia
> based applications working and that updates will be released shortly
> after that to add functionality.
>
> So, what came installed on the one I have probably won't be installed
> on the ones purchased from Openmoko.com or from a reseller.
>
>> And sorry if I'me getting it wrong (my english is
>> not very good) but first you wrote no accesories
>> and next you wrote it came with a headset and the
>> laser/led/pens stylus. Ain't those accesories?
>
> I wrote "The Freerunner doesn't come without accessories, however."
> which is probably a bit confusing. :) My apologies. This means it DID
> come with some. "It is not lacking accessories" is probably a more
> clear way to phrase that.
>
>>
>>
>> Well, I have a lot of questions, but I think I'll
>> better let those who know how to ask make them.
>
> You're doing well enough. :) Any questions you have might help me
> decide what ends up in the reviews I write, so I'd appreciate the
> input. :)
>
>>
>> Thanks again
>>
>> Kosa
>>
>> - Un mundo mejor es posible-
>>
>> Kevin Dean escribió:
>>>
>>> I recieved my Openmoko Freerunner sample this morning via DHL, and
>>> like I did with the Neo1973, I took lots of pictures and blogged about
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Some of the pictures aren't the greatest (poor lighting in my bedroom
>>> and a photographer I am not!) but they get the idea across. The write
>>> up also gives a few tidbits of opinion on some of the changes that
>>> seem to get overlooked.
>>>
>>> Anyway, the writeup can be read at:
>>>
>>>
>>>
> http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunn
> er.html
>>>
>>> -Kevin Dean
>>>
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Re: Re[2]: Video of production device?

[Kevin Dean]

On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 4:04 PM, t3st3r <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Vinc Duran" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "List for Openmoko community discussion" 
> Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 18:51:00 -0600
> Subject: Re: Video of production device?
>
>> >>> Is there video of the production FreeRunner in use? I found
>> >>> http://illume.projects.openmoko.org/illume-vv-01.avi posted by Kevin
>> >>> Dean on May 19th. Is that video of shipping software or just a concept
>> >>> video?
> If someone cares I dislike such UI.Even on video playback it can be seen that 
> sometimes some sliding effects are somewhat slow.And, what is slightly worse, 
> UI has too few items per screen and over-uses this nasty sliding.So on this 
> video I can see just a permanent nasty scrolling and sliding.IMHO such UI is 
> neither well optimized for stilus- or finger-driven UI nor comfortable in 
> sense that there should be as few levels of nested menus as possible.

It's actually well optimized for the stylus and finger. Openmoko's
2007.2 stack is HORRIBLE for finger based usage, and while Qtopia is a
bit better, it's still pretty bad. The ASU makes selection (via
sliding) easy. Text is also pretty big and easy to select.

>From video it looks like dealing with such menu system is a real PITA.

Much easier than hitting a tiny square with my finger.

>Sliding is great effect and looks great and I like it.If it's not overused as 
>here in this example.

You can still use the icon based app selection screen (ala Qtopia or
iPhone) and is infact the default. Illume is shown off because it's
actually creative.

>
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Re: Qte or Qt?

[Kevin Dean]

Qt has been adapted for X11. This is why GTK apps will still be supported.

On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 11:36 PM, Bin Chen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As ASU switched to Qt, to ensure the coexistence of GTK+ and QT, the
> backend should be chosen to X11. As I know, QTE only support
> framebuffer backend, so OM use desktop QT but not QTE?
>
> Thanks.
> Bin
>
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Re: software load for first mfg run of Freerunner? Is ASU what ships?

[Kevin Dean]

On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Ron K. Jeffries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am NOT asking if mass production has started.
>
> I am asking if OpenMoko has frozen a release to
> load into the microSD cards. It seems to me that the unit can come off
> the line, and that one of the final steps before packing would be to load
> the
> software.

Firstly, yes, the software has been chosen. It's one of the older
versions of the 2007.2 stack, the one you're used to if you have a
1973 or if you've toyed with Qemu in the past year. This will get you
basic phone calls, SMS, a limited media player and so on.

Secondly, and while this is nit-picky, the software isn't on the
microSD card (though you CAN boot software installed on the SD card)
its in NAND Flash. The reason I mention this is because both the
Freerunner and the 1973 include a microSD card of 512MB, a size most
people would find to small for "everyday" use once you start using it
as a digital music player, a storage device for pictures et cetera.

You can install a microSD of your own into it without having to do any
software copying before you boot it the first time. :)

>
> Is ASU "the* ship[ping s/w load?
>
> yes I know people can and will download new s/w.
> but you'd hope that the Freerunner as shipped would not
> require an immediate s/w reload.

The software that ships to developers will not be the software that
"mainstream users" will have installed. For a mainstream device,
making the user install the software is dumb. That said, between the
developer release and mainstream release the software (ASU) will be
developed and improved upon so rapidly that it's possible that by the
time the device is actually in your hand that the ASU would have also
become usable enough to move to and poke at and report bugs on.

>
> Or maybe I'm being too "old skool" ???
> --
> Ron K. Jeffries
> http://blog.eronj.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: sales tax on freerunners

[Kevin Dean]

There's no "American tax". I was chatting with a friend from Croatia
who was confused by how American sales tax works because apparently
it's more common elsewhere (or particularly in Europe) to roll the
sales tax (VAT?) into the advertised price of the good. In America,
each state has it's own sales tax laws (not all states have sales tax)
which only applies to goods sold within the state. Americans  suffer
no sales taxes on the national level (yet...).

Furthermore, when I bought my Neo 1973 it appeared on my debit card as
a purchase from FIC's Taiwan headquarters and NOT the California
location where it shipped from so I wasn't charged a direct tax for
that purchase. Of course, somewhere along the line, the price was
inflated as some government skimmed off the top of commerce, but
that's factored into the quoted price, and I'm sure you're asking only
about taxes applied directly to the end consumer (in this case, you).

On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Robin Paulson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> while i was looking up the gst/duty i'll have to pay for importing my
> freerunner, this occurred to me - is american/californian/whatever
> sales tax included already in the price of the phone? will i be taxed
> twice, or will your local tax only be applied for local purchases?
>
> this might seem like a dumb question, but i've bought plenty of stuff
> from another country where the seller included tax even though it's
> being shipped abroad
>
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Re: My experience with the Freerunner

[Kevin Dean]

Yeah, there are GTA01 images for the ASU, I've tested them.

Not too much to report, ASU is almost totally non-functional but it
gives a good view of it's potential.

I planned on doing video over this weekend but I got sick for the
first time in almost three years. *growls*

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 3:48 PM, Lorn Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> steve wrote:
>>
>> Ian got a phone with the Apps based on GTK. everyone will.
>>
>> However, I wanted to let the community see the NEXT STEP.
>> So the next step ( ASU) is now public. you need a GTA02 to appreciate it.
>> and even then it's a raw first look at pre alpha software.
>
> Actually, I believe they started making images for gta01 as well.
> http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/
>
> They are the Openmoko-openmoko-qtopia-x11-image files.
>
> Be sure to also update your kernel.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Lorn 'ljp' Potter
> Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech
>
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Re: 2.5mm or 3.5mm

[Kevin Dean]

3.5 mm. I hear mention of "standard" 2.5 mm and other than my 1973 and
the Freerunner, I don't think I've ever seen a 2.5 mm used. Most wired
headsets on phones I've purchased in the past each used their own
"proprietary" connector with the exception of my recent Motorolas
which used USB. That means every set of headphones I've EVER used were
3.5 mm (actually, they're labeled as 1/8 inch) and that's what my
Element has as it's AUX input, so I'll stick with that. :)

-Kevin

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 6:18 AM, pHilipp Zabel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 8:18 AM, Joerg Reisenweber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi community!
>> A short poll: on a future GTA0x (>2), would you prefer to have
>> A) "standard" 2.5mm headset (mic+phones) connector, where you have to buy a
>> cheap adapter if you want to use your "old" headphones, (the way like it's
>> for GTA01/02)
>> or
>> B) classic 3.5mm headphones "Walkman(R)" connector, where you have to DIY an
>> adapter for any standard cellphone headset? (or does anybody know of 3.5mm
>> headSET standards or adapters?)
>
> B) 3.5mm all the way, and for the headset connector I'd go for what
> Nokia does (I've only see least N810
> http://www.forum.nokia.com/main/resources/technologies/connectivity/av_connector.html
>
> Oh, and it would be terrific if the static noise could be kept low so
> it would give good quality with low impedance (13Ohm, 21Ohm)
> earphones.
>
>> please hurry to vote, we have to make a decision. Thanks
>>
>> cheers
>> jOERG
>> Openmoko-HW-development
>>
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>>
>
> regards
> Philipp
>
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Re: Freerunner test

[Kevin Dean]

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 4:35 PM, ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yorick Matthys wrote:
>>
>> I don't know how to post on the mailing list (shame on me, I know...)
>> although i read every mail that gets posted on them, so I write it directly
>> to your e-mail address.
>
> If you're subscribed to the mailing list, just address messages to
> community@lists.openmoko.org and everyone will get a copy.
>
>> could you also give an indication for how long it takes to get a gps fix
>> (cold/warm start) ? Or about the audio quality with a standard headset?
>> I understand completely if you can't be bothered with these questions, if
>> so, please excuse me; it's just I'm so damn anxious to get my hands on a
>>  freerunner :-).
>
>
> I haven't done any audio or GPS tests on my Freerunner yet. Have any of the
> other Freerunner testers done anything in this regard?

Unscientific testing, yes. The echo is still there. :) I'm getting
annoying GSM buzz on the Freerunner when using certain SIM cards (I
need to confirm this with more SIM cards). It sounds as if the
Freerunner has the capability to be louder but calls seem quieter
(though this is configurable).

I've done nothing with GPS since the ASU doesn't have a functional GPS
app yet but I might poke at it with a 2007.02 image and TangoGPS this
weekend.

>
> If not, I'll try some testing this weekend if I can figure out how to get
> the GPS working.
>
> Ian
>
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Re: Freerunner test

[Kevin Dean]

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 11:40 PM, Mike Montour <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kevin Dean wrote:
>
>> Unscientific testing, yes. The echo is still there. :)
>
> s/)/(/
>
> Can you please add a note about this to bug #1267? How bad was the echo -
> enough that a normal person would complain about it, or something that would
> only be noticed if they listened carefully?

I've updated that bug. :)

>
>> I'm getting
>> annoying GSM buzz on the Freerunner when using certain SIM cards (I
>> need to confirm this with more SIM cards).
>
> A note about this on bug #883 would also be good.

I'd like to reconfirm this before reporting, or at least kill my
theory before reporting on it and creating a false lead. It seems that
the SIM itself is important. Sitting at my computer desk and switching
the card in my 1973 for the one in my Freerunner causes the Freerunner
to buzz but doesn't affect the 1973. Now, it's possible there's
something else (perhaps my wireless mouse, my speaker system, my
monitor) actually causing this, so I'd like to test the same in
different environments and buy a 4th SIM card to another control.

>
>
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Re: FoxyTag

[Kevin Dean]

If you're speeding, you're already breaking the law. Good people have
an ethical imperative to ignore and oppose unjust law.

I'd love to see a Trapster[1] app on Openmoko. I was made aware of
this project because of the Dash GPS-device which was made in
association with FIC/Openmoko, so I've got my fingers crossed.

[1] http://www.trapster.com/

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:11 PM, Pawel Kowalak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 2008-06-02, at 18:47, Bastian Muck wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>> Be careful with such software. In germany e.g. such Software is
>> forbidden.
>
> Are you sure about that? According to FAQ:
>
> "Laws usually prohibit radars detectors and system that perturb their
> functions. But FoxyTag is not a radar detector. It simply gives
> information according to your current position."
>
> For example in Poland radar detectors are also forbidden, but almost
> every GPS navigation system has speed cameras database.
>
> BR, Pawel
>
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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[Kevin Dean]

This is GTA03 - http://walkingice.twbbs.org/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=715

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Sergey Volkov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello, openmoko community.
>
> I have a question regarding future products of Openmoko. Wiki says
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA that GTA03 is actually HXD8, a car
> navigation system. This claim is based on a post by Michael Lauer,
> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-May/017061.html.
>
> But IMHO that inference is not obvious:
>
> Martin Bernreuther writes:
>> looking at the Wiki, there're also speculations about another Neo-like 
>> device:
>>   http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/HXD8
>> This seems not to correspond to the GTA04. (Maybe  HXD8==GTA03?)
>> Is there a more complete roadmap about the "Neo-Productline" somewhere?
>
> And Michael Lauer replies:
>> > device: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/HXD8
>> This cat is long out of the box. It's the Dash Express device.
>
> For me the actual question of GTA03 vs. GTA04 remains unanswered.
>
> Also, Michael Lauer recently posted
> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-June/003020.html
> following on the openmoko-kernel list:
>
>> I don't want to talk too much about future products, but I would vote against
>> going away from NAND for 03 -- there's too many business risks. 03 is about
>> evolution. 04 is revolution.
>
> This makes the issue completely unclear, esp. GTA03 part. AFAIK (my
> opinion stems from
> the discussion which took place in May on the hardware list) GTA04 is
> a brand new
> device based on a more advanced SoC. But it's very hard to find any info on 
> 03.
>
> Could anybody unveil the GTA03 mystery? What are the hardware specs, will the
> shared-slow-videoRAM-bus issue be fixed (for me it's the main reason
> to wait for the
> next device)?
>
> Any comments from openmoko employees are especially welcome ! (:
>
> PS don't kick me too hard, it's my first post to this list (;
>
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Kevin Dean]

With Nouveau, wouldn't it give a future device video performance that
equals or surpasses the current XGlamo?

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 3:06 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>
> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
> interest :)
>
>> Seen this?
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7430768.stm
>> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/
>>
>> "The Tegra line will be all-in-one, integrated systems on a chip,
>> containing an 800MHz ARM CPU, GeForce GPU, image processor, HD video
>> processor, and controllers for all other aspects of core operations
>> (memory, USB ports, communication) -- in a package about the size of a
>> dime.
>>
>> The range will come in two varieties to start -- the Tegra 600 and the
>> Tegra 650. Both chips can run games like Quake 3 with full filters and
>> anti-aliasing at rates of more than 40 FPS, and will support 1080p
>> HDMI, WSXGA+ LCD or CRT, and NTSC/PAL TV outs."
>>
>> It's still ARM based, so it should work with OM.  It'll run Android if
>> you want, and may end up with a slightly smaller phone, as it
>> integrates the GPU.
>>
>> --
>> H. Lally Singh
>> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
>> Virginia Tech
>>
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>
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Kevin Dean]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 9:51 AM, flexd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev:
>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>>
>> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
>> interest :)
>>
>
> To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or
> not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i
> couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.

I'm not a programmer, but I have to fully disagree with you. Carsten
IS a hacker, and I trust that if the source code where devouring
children that he'd make it public. If not him then Zeke, or if not
him... Me not being able to program it doesn't mean that someone else
who cares can't. That's a level of trust that I gain from Free
Software, and I'd not change that.

>
> Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd
> love it!
>
> I want the ability to change everything, but having a different cpu/gpu
> driver isnt exactly a high priority. Ofcourse this would be great, but a
> closed driver will do fine if my phone can have specs as good as that!

I think about that more and more (I traded a quad core Opteron system
with 10 GB of RAM for an Intel Core 2 Duo with 4 so that I could use
the GPLed Intel 3D driver (before I leanrned that GLX was technically
non-free). The more I think on it, the more I realize that a non-free
firmware on the system mainboard actually scares me a bit MORE than a
non-free application in userspace. Not only that, but how in the HELL
can you call a project "Openmoko" with a tagline of "Free your phone"
and then turn your back on openness and freedom?


>
> Regards
>
> Kristoffer
>>
>>> Seen this?
>>>
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7430768.stm
>>> http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/
>>>
>>> "The Tegra line will be all-in-one, integrated systems on a chip,
>>> containing an 800MHz ARM CPU, GeForce GPU, image processor, HD video
>>> processor, and controllers for all other aspects of core operations
>>> (memory, USB ports, communication) -- in a package about the size of a
>>> dime.
>>>
>>> The range will come in two varieties to start -- the Tegra 600 and the
>>> Tegra 650. Both chips can run games like Quake 3 with full filters and
>>> anti-aliasing at rates of more than 40 FPS, and will support 1080p
>>> HDMI, WSXGA+ LCD or CRT, and NTSC/PAL TV outs."
>>>
>>> It's still ARM based, so it should work with OM.  It'll run Android if
>>> you want, and may end up with a slightly smaller phone, as it
>>> integrates the GPU.
>>>
>>> --
>>> H. Lally Singh
>>> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
>>> Virginia Tech
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: screenshots

[Kevin Dean]

I think he was looking for pictures of the ASU.

You can see some basic ones here
http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/attachment/ticket/1432/qwerty-scramble-1.png
and http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/attachment/ticket/1432/qwerty-scramble-2.png

You can find a semi-reliable working concept
http://people.openmoko.org/ninjutsu/freerunner1.4.swf

Though, in truth, the ASU is still under heavy development and as such
the UI is composed of several independant elements that will, as time
does, be blended into a more consistant interface.

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Rahul Joshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Don't know about other sites, but this one particularly comes to mind -
> http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Day-One-Openmoko-Freerunner.html
>
> Rahul J
>
> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 8:48 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> is there any page on the wiki that shows the current GUI state of OM ?
>>
>> Especially with the 'switch' to Qt I would like to know how both
>> environments
>> interact graphically.
>>
>> Thx
>> W
>>
>>
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Re: screenshots

[Kevin Dean]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 5:44 PM, andy selby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2008/6/3 Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> I think he was looking for pictures of the ASU.
>
> I was hoping that a Freerunner owner would post some ASU screenies on
> that site in future
>
> 2008/6/3  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> In essense I was looking for pictures that give me an Idea of the OM user
>> experience to drool over :)
>
> If you've got a neo1973, you can flash a qtopia on x11 image from
> http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily/neo1973/deploy/glibc/images/neo1973/?C=M;O=D
> It has limited apps but I did make a call using it.
> Not sure how close it is to the ASU

That IS the ASU. :D The Openmoko-qtopia-x11 images are the ASU. The
only difference is that the first one had a few apps that have since
been removed because new ones will be written or those functionalities
will be integrated into existing apps.

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Kevin Dean]

Excellent! Thanks for the update!

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
> Wollersheim
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
> else have a better guess?
>
> You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
> Pakistan.
>
> Cheers
> Dennis
>
> Masoom Alam wrote:
>> Hi every one,
>>
>> I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
>> available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
>> the mailing list :)).
>> Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
>> this question.
>>
>> Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
>> in advance now?
>>
>> Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
>> recommendation in this regard?
>>
>> Regards,
>> MM Alam
>>
>>
>>
>>
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> - --
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> Bundoora Victoria 3086
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Re: Wireless providers in the US

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:03 PM,  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Could those of you in the US, who have the prior phone,and who plan to get
> the new one, share what providers you are using?

T-Mobile. Been with them 5 or 6 years and zero complaints.

> Also, any details would
> be great.  I am going to be leaving Sprint, and ditching my Treo 650 for
> the new phone.

Dropped Motorola RAZRs for a Neo 1973 and Neo Freerunner.

>  It is very exciting, but I am a little lost as to what all
> my options are.

I'm assuming for a moment you're planning on purchasing an Openmoko
phone since that's what this list is about. Any cellular carrier that
uses GSM works with the Freerunner and 1973. This pretty much means
anything BUT Sprint or Verizon (and Verizon will be transitioning to
GSM in 2009 in the metro DC area, from what I've heard). Assuming the
mobile companies don't restrict phones they're not familiar with,
every contract plan or prepaid plan should work.

> It is further complicated by the way in the US everyone
> seems to offer regionally based plans, rather than having the same plans
> available throughout the country.

I have to say I disagree unless you're interested only in a small,
local based provider which Sprint is NOT. T-Mobile and AT&T both offer
nationwide plans and the plans are the same coast to coast.

>  I am in the D.C. area.

A friend of mine lives in northwest and T-Mobile doesn't work well for
her (though Verizon is starting to fail in her building too). I get
excellent service in Frederick, Alexandria, Gaithersburg, Reston,
Herndon, Sterling. Come to think of it... Other than being in like the
Baltimore tunnel, I don't think I've ever NOT had service and I drove
out to Jersey a few months ago to buy my car.

>
> Thanks
>
> P.S.  My intended uses are as a phone, as a modem or tethering device for
> my laptop,

I support Openmoko but let me give my realistic opinion - the decision
to use 2G and include wifi isn't the best for Americans in metro
areas. From what I gather, data over cellular is still pretty
expensive in Europe so the inclusion of Wifi benefits the most people
there. In the USA where unlimited data plans are quite affordable,
where people commute signifigantly longer distances and cellular
coverage is more reliable and more readily available than wifi
coverage lack of 3G sucks really REALLY badly.

If you're tethering for cellular data connection, a Freerunner will
disappoint you. The fact that there's not a cellular connection fast
enough to support streaming audio on my daily commute is serious
enough that I questioned if I'd pay money for a Freerunner.

> as a web browser when I am on the road, for calendar and such,
> for texting.  I am interested in GPS features as well.

A Freerunner would work well for all of those, and with the GPS being
tacked on, I'm not sure I can think of many devices that would combine
all of those features.

>
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Re: Dual SIM?

[Kevin Dean]

The Freerunner has a single SIM slot.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Adilson Oliveira
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi.
>
> I'm quite sure the answer is "no" but as I didn't find any definitive
> answer for that I decided to ask: does the openmoko hardware support 2
> SIM cards?
>
> []s
>
> Adilson.
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFIUBYZ2cB5Bt7H7YARAranAJ42l1mQeDd8z/HlYC9bcqTptAI1UgCgoJZC
> XRsqcU6XHall3sYaq42jgcs=
> =tW0/
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Stroller writes:
>>
>>On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>>
>>> Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
>>> phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
>>> giving me the phone...
>>
>>Where the heck are you?
>>
>>To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone
>>is cheaper.
>
> US.  To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone
> *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from "is" (it actually
> worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these
> months as a result).

I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it "obvious"
that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service
(cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no
matter what phone you have.

In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of
PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the
service contract doesn't.


>
>>The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to
>>pay up front - on can choose the phone "for free" with one set of
>>tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes
>>for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can
>>also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.
>

Not sure if you're confusing cause and effect here or if Brits just
look at "cellular service" differently than Americans. You are
implying that "the contract" is "the monthly service of voice/data
connectivity and a handset". In the US, ONLY the monthly service of
voice/data connectivity is contracted. It seems to me that what you're
ACTUALLY doing when you make your purchase is purchasing a phone at
some price, agreeing to a service level (monthly voice/data) and then
financing the cost of that device through your monthly bill. By paying
the £75 up front you're simply paying for the phone and NOT paying the
cost of it in installments monthly.

But from how I see it the service that is purchased (voice/data
connectivity) remains the same price.

> I haven't seen anything like that here.  The plan costs what it costs;
> you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones.
>
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Re: Wireless providers in the US

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:09 PM, ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ian douglas wrote:
>> ... but not at AT&T plans are available coast-to-coast.

Got it! This was something I wasn't aware of. I've lived in several
states over the past handful of years and the plans I've had have all
been the same? I would think it's actually HARDER not to offer some
plan in other areas. Every plan offered on the website have been
offered in stores.

I've seen smaller carriers (like Bluegrass Wireless in Kentucky) offer
plans that didn't cover the nation, but never large carriers offer
geographically limited plans. How odd, thanks for pointing that out.

>
> at = all
>
> Lack of sleep = typos. My bad.
>
> -id
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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Robert Taylor
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kevin Dean wrote:
>> I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it "obvious"
>> that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service
>> (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no
>> matter what phone you have.
>>
>> In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of
>> PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the
>> service contract doesn't.
>>
>>
> Which part of "a portion of the contract pays for you phone ... phone
> ISN'T FREE, YOU ARE FINANCING THE PURCHASE OF THE PHONE VIA THE
> CONTRACT" is hard to understand?

I understand that statement ENTIRELY. Now that we're done beating down
straw men, where have I ONCE mentioned anything about a "free phone"
(with the exception of the use of quoting a previous poster, in
responce to his use of the term) ?

I have not.

The average person walks into a cellular retailer, purchases a phone
(A phone that is clearly marked as costing, say $199) signs up for the
two year contract and recieves a discount on the phone and begins a
service subscription.

To say that he's getting a free phone is stupid - he got a $199 phone
as a bonus for signing up for a contractual service (a voluntary
service, by the way!). Did he pay for the phone? No. What he did was
reduce the phone company's profit margin by making them expend more
money in order to gain him as a customer of the recurring subscription
for vioce/data services.

If I walk into a retail outlet for my mobile service provider, I can
pay for a phone WITHOUT service - I get no credits or refunds from the
cellular provider. I pay for the phone.

I can also have my OWN phone and walk into a cellular service provider
and sign up for a contract of video/data service. The price I pay for
that service is the same as the price paid by the person who took the
discount on the phone. I am simply creating a higher profit revenue
for that company in the process.

-Kevin



>
> Why do americans have such a hard time grasping this?
>
> Rob
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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Because the price of the "free" phone is bundled into the price of the
> contract.

I don't think so. The only thing that changes in the deal is the
profit margin of the company. The costs of the mobile carrier also
indirectly include the costs of electricity but if I said "I'm not
buying electricity from you so I shouldn't pay the mark up from
electricity" I would just sound really really stupid. I'm well aware
that the mobile providers pays for the phone and as a cost of doing
business, charges more for their products.

>  If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one.

Walk into T-Mobile or AT&T and  buy a phone and sign up for a
contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in
your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same
contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll
see they're the same.

You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're
arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit
someone else's company is able to make on transactions.

> Not quite -- you're also committed to pay the inflated price long
> enough to pay for the phone,

And as long as that company pays taxes. And as long as that company
advertises. And as long as that company complies with minimum wage
laws.

I am aware that when a company spends money, in order to be profitable
they will reclaim those costs they will increase the price of their
products. I have no problem with a company making profit. In fact, I
would strongly PERFER it because companies that provide me services
tend to vanish when they don't make money.

> or pay for the phone under the guise of
> an "early termination" fee.

You entered into the contract of your own free will. Entering into
that contract is merely claiming that your word has value. Why do you
complain about agreeing to something and then being held to that
agreement? The terms are stated up front, if you find them
disagreeable negotiate the terms. If you can't, don't enter into the
agreement.

The termination fee covers the loss to the company's profit margin
when you fail to complete your payment agreement. They do this so that
it's easier for customers to get cellular service. The cost of putting
up towers, hiring support staff, providing them with bathrooms,
purchasing computers, hiring programmers and engineers and all of that
is not small. To recoup that cost, they need to make a certain amount
of money. Putting a phone in the hands of people who don't have phones
ALSO costs money, and they need to ensure that if that customer fails
to generate profit for them, they will not face a loss from doing
business with that customer.

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Re: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Kevin Dean]

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 4:43 PM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> And I want it half the size:)
> A tiny, nice phone with QVGA, not a notebook. If you want the double size,
> why not just buy an eeepc?

As the resident Devil's Advocate, I agree here.

Lemme state this - I paid for a 1973 and Openmoko Inc. sent me a
Freerunner to review the software progress. The next phone I spend my
money on will have 3G (or better). If 03 isn't that device, simply
ignore my post. :)

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner

[Kevin Dean]

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Robert Taylor
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Oh okay so its semantics then.

In the USA, the "contract" is for the service ONLY. That's why I asked
in the beginning if we had a different definition of what it meant to
contract. It's a lot like a grocery store that offers "buy one get one
free" kind of sales, they create incentive to purchase by providing
another product. The price of the service (video/voice) doesn't change
depending on those incentives. You can still buy ONE product (in some
areas... he he. Most people comply with laws and different areas
interpret "buy one get one free" differently) at the same price even
though by taking them up on the offer you gain more in the end if you
do.

It's a semantic issue perhaps. English has no word for "Umami", the
kind of taste sensation you feel when biting into a piece of cheddar
cheese. Prior to the assymilation of the term "deja vu" from French,
there was no term for "the sensation of having done the same thing
before". Mere words goes a LONG way towards understanding; sometimes
nuances matter.

>
> *NOD*
>
> :)
>
> Rob
>
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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

[Kevin Dean]

Please note this is an OFF LIST reply, since it is off topic for
Openmoko mailing lists.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Lowell Higley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If I make an observation.. I am an American by birth but have lived all over
> the world.. In the middle of the Pacific, Korea, and now Europe (again).
> One of the things I have noticed is that the laws in Europe tend to protect
> the consumer whereas the laws in the US tend to protect big business.

Why do you instantly assume there two sides are opposed to each other?
Now, let me say I agree that corporations (definition: a legal entity
recognized by the government for the purpose of shielding the
individual for personal responsibillity for their actions) are in
general a bad thing since it means if a person does something "bad"
while conducting business they don't suffer penalties. If, however, a
person running an honest business manages to be "big", I see nothing
wrong at ALL with them.

Businesses (big AND small) provide services and products to people.
They don't use violence to get what they want (even Microsoft doesn't
send the police or military to your house for refusing to buy their
licenses). If people said "I don't like how you conduct business and I
refuse to give you my money!" those businesses (large and small) would
stop doing that thing because they want to stay in business!

> I could give many examples but I think this whole "contact vs. no contract"
> discussion is a perfect example. imho.

I was raised as a liberal Democrat. That said, I can sit back and
(with the best of them) argue the liberal perspective about how "big
business takes advantage" of the "little guy/working class".

I was also raised to believe that I should question everything and not
accept what other people tell me without some proof. In EVERY
arguement against "big business" there is one key factor - the
government. How "big" might Microsoft be if the government (which
funds every government school and university in just about every
nation of the world) didn't pick teachers who demanded their
assignments be submitted in .doc format? How many business might exist
worldwide if the government didn't mandate licenses and zoning and all
kinds of other things that prevent people (who create wealth by simply
existing!) who have very little money from starting honest businesses
and earning money by providing services and goods to people? How many
deaths might be avoided if the government let people and their doctors
determine if a medication was "safe enough" for their specific
situation?

>
> Just a personal observation... shoot me down if you like.

I don't mean to shoot you down. I just find it disconcerning how many
people "attack" business owners, demand regulation which forces up
prices and reduces control and than blame businesses for increased
prices and decreased control. Hopefully some people will critically
evaluate things...

>
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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

[Kevin Dean]

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 12 Jun 2008, at 03:19, Kevin Dean wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>  If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one.
>>
>> Walk into T-Mobile or AT&T and  buy a phone and sign up for a
>> contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in
>> your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same
>> contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll
>> see they're the same.
>
> I think your replies to this thread started when I said "OMG!
> WTF!?!?!?" in reply to a statement like that.
>
> Here in the UK the prices would certainly NOT be the same.
>
> Checking AT&T's website it does indeed seem the situation is
> different in the US. I went to the website, clicked the "shop for
> tariffs" ("shop for plans"?) link and was unable to complete the
> checkout process without selecting a handset. To a European, this
> seems about as antiquated as being required to rent your landline
> handset from the phone company (which indeed was the case when I was
> a child, 25 years ago).

I'm surprised that AT&T doesn't list that on their site. I honestly
haven't checked their (or T-Mobile, my provider of choice) website for
being able to do that. The thing is, people frequently go "Cell
carriers are doing this abusive thing!" and that gets me a bit
annoyed. It is more common to buy the phone/service bundle, but it's
not the ONLY way to. I went to T-Mobile this weekend to purchase a SIM
card for my Freerunner and the only question asked was "Is it
unlocked" (ensuring it's "compatible"). There was a SNAFU there
because this was a newly opened store who didn't have the activation
kits, but it was a service they clearly offered and even have
pamphlets in their holders.

>
>> You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're
>> arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit
>> someone else's company is able to make on transactions.
>
> Hmmmn... IMO you're taking Mr Pfeiffer's "should" a bit literally here.
>
> Certainly from my point of view, I am astounded at the opportunity
> the US carriers appear to be missing out on. They could easily
> advertise "got a handset from your old contract? Save 25% on you
> monthly bills - try our new SIM-only tariffs!" Think of how the
> customers would come flocking to them.

There are other logistical issues to that, and while it's slowly
changing, it's not possible to ignore them. In most of Europe, GSM is
"standard". In the US, two of the four largest cellular providers use
CDMA so for most people making that claim would come with so many
caveats that it would be hard to handle even in the best case. In
Verizon's case, for instance, they will be transitioning to GSM from
CDMA "soon". It would be a bit counter productive for them to
encourage people to bring their existing phones over to a network when
they're phasing down that very technology.


There's also the fact that most people are in a contract. There would
have to be SIGNIFIGANT savings to justify most of that for customers.
Typical early termination fees are between $150 and $300 per handset.
A 25% monthly savings on my plan would save me very little money in
the long run ($150 cancellation fee per handset and my plan is a
family plan where my wife and I share minutes. To cancel that service,
I'd need to terminate 2 phones, costing me $300 for a two year savings
of $360).

There's also the consumerist mentality here. I'm not sure if it exists
in the UK, or if so, how strongly, but it is common (especially among
the younger demographic) to change phones frequently to have "the
latest and greatest". It's the same reason the iPhone 2 is going to
sell despite the fact that the iPhone is still "functional" and even
still leading the pack in terms of appeal.

>
> The scenario you describe means that whenever one finishes one's
> contract the old mobile phone is garbage. It's chucked away and
> becomes landfill. I can't see how this benefits anyone except the
> foreign manufacturers of phones. The carriers have to stock,
> inventory & finance handset stock, and the consumer ends up paying
> more. It just seems insane to me, and that's what surprised me.

As I said above, in many many many cases it is the phone, NOT the
cellular service, that gets people interested in service. AT&T wasn't
particularly appealing but the iPhone WAS. There are some pragma

Re: Why not use forum?

[Kevin Dean]

It's interesting how much divide this issue causes, I think. :) I'm
personally a fan of fora, but I don't really care too strongly either
way. Some people REALLY like mailing lists and some people REALLY like
fora and never the twain shall meet. :P

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Richard Reichenbacher
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We went over this right around the same time last year.  The general
> consensus was that forums are the devil, mailing lists are good and
> anyone that thinks otherwise is a complete moron.  Oh and prepare to
> get torn a new one for having a differing opinion.
>
> On Jun 12, 2008, at 8:30 AM, Leonti Bielski wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>> I was wondering - why are we not using forum for community?
>> It's much  better to view, you can subscribe and unsubscribe to the
>> topics you want and etc.
>> The main
>> Personally I don't like mailing list because it's not that comfortable
>> and I can see no advatages of using mailing list instead of forum?
>> Can anyone explain to me why we can't install
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Re: OT: Nokia expects open source developers to accept things like DRM, commercial IP rights, and SIM locks.

[Kevin Dean]

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 7:50 PM, Lorn Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Considering English is not his native language... I am sure something
> did not come through as he intended.
>
> I think what he means is this:
> Businesses are not yet ready to fully embrace open source as the
> community see's it. He also means that the open source community should
> learn WHY things are the way they are. You don't have to agree with
> those ideas, but knowledge about it doesn't hurt anybody and could
> benefit by enabling us to help change things.
>
> Remember, Nokia might be one company, but it is made by individuals. A
> lot of them. Who have differing ideas about things.

Thanks for the sanity reminder, Lorn. While I can see why this would
be alarming, even if a certain company isn't ready to embrace a
philosophy, they ARE writing and releasing software that is free
software (open source, if that's your moniker) for the time being and
usually "Actions speak louder than words."

There are companies much worse - still totally unwilling to embrace
different paradigms. Nokia might be dropping setting up minefields,
but at least they're saying "There are minefields!'. Free Software
works better in developement and ethics and some naysayers haven't
stopped free software before so don't lend too much weight to this. ;)

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Re: moko running everything as root

[Kevin Dean]

On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Joerg Reisenweber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My opinion is averse. There's no valid reason to abandon the very simple
> concept of users, groups, and permissions, just to have an "easy start" on
> development (fixing apps later on is a PITA). If you don't care from
> beginning, you'll end up where Vista is right now.
> Where is the problem to chmod any file in /dev, /sys, etc. to do rdate, power
> off, opkg etc (ok, for opkg I myself would prefer to be asked for root pw).

The difference, as I see it, is we can be sure that a user has the
capacity to physically disable the device. Having user seperations
makes sense when you have some restricted users and some "root" users.
Anybody who has dealt with security in a mission critical situation
will tell you that having those kind of permissions systems when the
INTRUDER has physical access to the device is next to pointless.

> Or make apps SUID! Do we really have to repeat this annoyance yet *another*
> time?

What benefit does havign things like OPKG SUID give us that having
opkg run as root doesn't? The reason for seperation of privaledges is
to prevent an unauthorized person from ruining the system (a
seceretary deleting anything ending in .conf because she doesn't use
those files on a network server...) by an unprivaledged user.

If you look at studies on why "Linux" isn't hit by viruses you'll see
the root/user seperation featured as #1. #2 reason is "diversity" - A
virus undetected on  Red Hat might not be invisible on Debian and the
work needed to ensure that was the case is about equal to ensuring
that every device driver ever written for Windows was bug free (i.e
next to impossible)

> If the user *really* wants to run these apps in the way you assumed (being
> pissed off to relogin as root), why not use ageold mechanisms like sudoers,
> wheel etc?

User "John" running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running "rm -rf
/*" because...? If you want security, unprivaledges users must NOT
EVER be able to run privaledged commands. In a corporate environment,
it is safe to assume that all of the people using the filesystem will
have various roles. This assumption doesn't exactly hold when the
entire filesystem is small enough to be put in one's pocket.

>
> To me it seems this is an *extreme* inattentiveness of developers, even worse
> a ridiculous one.

As I see it, it's being realistic when using technology designed with
restrictions to suit a multi-user environment in a situation where
only a single user. In a networked and shared environment, the
deletion of a single user's browser preferences isn't too important as
long as the integrity of the majority of the network exists. In a pure
single user situation, the integrity of the user's data IS network
integrity.

Feel free to ask an iPhone user what would be worse, the entire
dataset of their device being erased, or only their phone numbers,
pictures, music, settings and so on. in both cases, that user would
NEVER use another device from that company. When "the user" is more
important than "integrity" there is NO way that traditional UNIX file
system permissions add a layer of security.

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Re: moko running everything as root

[Kevin Dean]

On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 4:25 AM, arne anka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> will tell you that having those kind of permissions systems when the
>> INTRUDER has physical access to the device is next to pointless.
>
> the om is connected via wlan or bluetooth -- thus allowing hacking into it
> (if it is not posiible right now it will some day).
> thus the user does not necessarily notice if there's an intruder.
> second: what ways to boot the om _without_ destroying all data? if you
> need to hack the password for the root account to be able to manipulate
> existing data, there's another fence to jump.
>
>
>> What benefit does havign things like OPKG SUID give us that having
>> opkg run as root doesn't?
>
> only opkg is run, not everything possible.
> logging in as root opens a world of ways to harm your data, either by
> accident or deliberately.
> expoliting suid requires a bug in the program suid'd.
>
>
>> User "John" running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running "rm -rf
>> /*" because...?
>
> see above.
> you can configure which commands/programs may be run with sudo.
> and user john is not every user -- a user able to run sudo needs to belong
> to a specific group, configurable as well.
>
>> If you want security, unprivaledges users must NOT
>> EVER be able to run privaledged commands.
>
> see above.
>
>> have various roles. This assumption doesn't exactly hold when the
>> entire filesystem is small enough to be put in one's pocket.
>
> the om represents a device more powerfull than the computer linux was
> developed on.
>
> i am not sure i understand you correctly, but for me it sounds like you
> saying user/group separation is meaningfull for servers only (and only
> because physical access can be prevented), for end user computers, laptops
> specifically, it is a waste.
> if so, you are pretty much alone with this understanding.
>
> what bothers me: as far as i understand the vast majority of applications
> is ported from existing linux distributions or just recompiled -- so, why
> would one disable the user/group principle the apps obey on their native
> platform?
> ubuntu for one works rather well with that wheel/sudo way and even on
> non-ubuntu systems users are able "to run a lot of root applications such
> as rdate, power off, opkg, etc." w/o beeing root all the time.
>
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Re: moko running everything as root

[Kevin Dean]

Firstly, sorry for the blank reply. Accidentally double clicked and
"send" is in the same spot. :P

On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 4:25 AM, arne anka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> only opkg is run, not everything possible.
> logging in as root opens a world of ways to harm your data, either by
> accident or deliberately.
> expoliting suid requires a bug in the program suid'd.

I understand how and why permission seperations exist. :) What I'm
saying is that if we sit back and evaluate how this device is going to
be used in the vast majority of cases, you'll realize that unlike a
desktop or server system, the data that a non-root user can delete is
as bad, or perhaps even WORSE than destroying the system integrity
itself.

I'm not saying "we should abandon security" as a concern. But
realistically speaking, a mobile device DOES have different concerns
than a desktop or a server. Focusing on "system internals" on Openmoko
while ignoring the fact that remote users can destroy vital, NON root,
important data is just busy work.


>> User "John" running sudo rm -rf /* is better than root running "rm -rf
>> /*" because...?
>
> see above.
> you can configure which commands/programs may be run with sudo.

I understand this. Take a step back for a second and really evaluate
the device's marketed purpose though. The point of sudo and the like
are to ensure that a non-root user can't hose the system, right? A
non-root user might need to be able to install a printer so you can
give that user access to CUPS commands. In the traditional UNIX file
system, having /usr destroyed is signifigantly bigger of an issue than
having /tmp destroyed in most cases. In a network environment, you
defend the "important" stuff dearly, and accept a certain level of
risk with every little blurb you give to a non-root user.

In the mobile world, there is NOTHING more important than the user's
data. Nothing. And in the mobile world, you can impliment root priv
seperations till the cows come home, but it doesn't eliminate the fact
that the most vulnerable part of the system is being put at risk
still.

Please understand I'm not saying "Ignore security", I'm a big fan of
security. :) I'm simply trying to look at this in a way that's suited
to the use cases rather than "tradition".

>> If you want security, unprivaledges users must NOT
>> EVER be able to run privaledged commands.
>
> see above.

Perhaps I needed to make this distinction. When I said  "a user" in
this case, I don't mean "a line in /etc/passwd" but a flesh and blood
person. You running sudo some-command is "a user running a privaledged
command". Sudo is a way to allow users to have SOME of the powers of
root, while limiting them from using others. If UNIX user john has
sudo permissions to remove packages, and that UNIX account is
comprimised, it is AS bad as of root itself had a shell on the box -
the intruder on the system can hose it.


> i am not sure i understand you correctly, but for me it sounds like you
> saying user/group separation is meaningfull for servers only (and only
> because physical access can be prevented), for end user computers, laptops
> specifically, it is a waste.
> if so, you are pretty much alone with this understanding.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm quite happy that I can log in a
"kevin" and not "root" on my desktop system. I AM saying, however,
that on a mobile device the value of each chunk of the filesystem is
different than on a desktop workstation, a laptop and CERTAINLY a
server. And taking into account traditional things because they're
traditional isn't always the most suited solution to the environment.

>
> what bothers me: as far as i understand the vast majority of applications
> is ported from existing linux distributions or just recompiled -- so, why
> would one disable the user/group principle the apps obey on their native
> platform?

Because the system they obey is designed for an environment where
protection of the system is more important than protection of non-root
data.

> ubuntu for one works rather well with that wheel/sudo way and even on
> non-ubuntu systems users are able "to run a lot of root applications such
> as rdate, power off, opkg, etc." w/o beeing root all the time.

If you check the Ubuntu mailing lists back to the days of Warty you'll
see that there were people objecting to the use of sudo for the same
reason that people are calling for root/user split. Allowing a
comprimised non-root user to have access to system internals was
heresy! Objectivly speaking, no system on a public network is "secure"
- security is simply the amount of risk you're willing to take for the
sake of access. Ubuntu chose to open up the sudo risk (and as I said,
even though it's "common", it's a procedure that still spark
controversy) because, in the end, it was deemed that that amount of
risk had acceptable gains. The reason that those gains were acceptable
on a desktop and not a server is the same arguement I'm making here -
the use case puts 

Re: moko running everything as root

[Kevin Dean]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Robert Taylor
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kevin Dean wrote:
>>
>> In the mobile world, there is NOTHING more important than the user's
>> data. Nothing. And in the mobile world, you can impliment root priv
>> seperations till the cows come home, but it doesn't eliminate the fact
>> that the most vulnerable part of the system is being put at risk
>> still.
>>
>>
>>
> This is nonsense.

You dispute that the user data is the most important part of the
mobile device "experience?

>
> Encrypt the data and have it backed up via policy/service/etc.

My previous e-mail has been clear - I WANT security on the device.
However, I simply don't beleive that the root/user seperation is the
most important consideration in that regard. You tossed out some great
security ideas, onces I'd personally put time into doing on my own
device, but with all due respect, you're saying my statements are
"nonsense" and then offering solutions that (while they work) aren't
what I was saying. Protecting user data is key so encryption and a
built-in, fully automated backup system is somethign I think would be
a GREAT thing to have. But it doesn't refute my point at all - a
non-root user can destroy the most critical part of the system and
doesn't need root to do it. Implimenting a root/user seperation itself
doesn't mitigate this risk. I agree that this risk needs to be
mitigated, I simply don't believe that the root/user split does much
to lessen the risks.

>
> You cannot separate security from a device this powerful.  Hell you
> cannot separate security from even crappy devices.  Hell we now live in
> an age where frickin printers come with full webservers with
> ssh/ftp/telnet and are now a security risk as much as any desktop.
>
> Despite the common belief, PHYSICAL access to a device DOES NOT
> GUARANTEE physical access to data.

That's correct if the data is encrypted but encryption isn't what's
being tossed around here. If all your data is stored in the clear, and
an intruder has physical access to the device, the distinctions
between root and non-root user don't matter. That's what I'm saying.

>
> A good enough key with a proper authentication scheme will keep the
> frickin NSA busy for 10's of thousands of years.
>
> Let's not kid our selves.  Security is of the utmost importance
> ESPECIALLY IN A WIRELESS WORLD.

I agree.

>
> If you think Bluejacking was nothing, just wait until you start owning
> these puppies during a walk by - hell, I have plans for making a
> carrying bag with a full spectrume of equipment and antennas that does
> nothing BUT sniff out wireless devices in an attempt to own them just
> for fun.
>
> How long do you think an root priviledged device like this would last
> under such circumstances?
>
> The world is getting MORE HAZARDOUS not less, with the full power of
> laptops only 10 years old or less in our pockets how can anyone think
> this is not a serious consideration?
>
> Rob
>
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Re: When it will be possible to buy OpenMoko?

[Kevin Dean]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 12:26 PM, Andy Selby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> There was a post on engadget mobile that suggested some have been
>> released.
>
> I cant find it, you got a link?

http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/06/11/openmoko-freerunner-gets-reviewed-early/

I didn't get this as part of a university release though.

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My blog: Photo Tour Of The ASU

[Kevin Dean]

Hi everyone. Over the weekend I took perhaps 50 or so screenshots of
the ASU on a Freerunner. A lot of them are repetitive, simply showing
all of the options on a given application. But others are
"interesting" and show some new or under-reviewed applications.

I've taken those "best of" images and put them together in a blog
post. That post can be read at
http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Photo-Tour-of-the-ASU.html.

I hope people enjoy!

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Re: My blog: Photo Tour Of The ASU

[Kevin Dean]

I was informed that the images on the buildhost (which is what I took
all the screenshots of) are out of date. Please use the images as a
glimpse into the ASU but not as a status report on it.

I'll see if I can follow up once I get a more current build running.

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 6:48 PM, Charles Edward Pax
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks for the post. I love screenshots.
>
> -Charles
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Kevin Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi everyone. Over the weekend I took perhaps 50 or so screenshots of
>> the ASU on a Freerunner. A lot of them are repetitive, simply showing
>> all of the options on a given application. But others are
>> "interesting" and show some new or under-reviewed applications.
>>
>> I've taken those "best of" images and put them together in a blog
>> post. That post can be read at
>>
>> http://monochromementality.com/index.php/blog/show/Photo-Tour-of-the-ASU.html.
>>
>> I hope people enjoy!
>>
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