Re: Discussion: what are your dreams for the Openmoko Community
On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 5:52 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: It has become a little quiet here in the last weeks so that I really fear about the spirit and status of this community. So what are your dreams with respect to open mobile handhelds? What would you like as future hardware? What to see in software distros? Anything else? What missing piece are you waiting for? If we exchange these ideas it may be possible that we all work together (with smaller and bigger contributions - everyone as he/she likes) to fulfill them... Otherwise I guess we have just to consume what Apple, Samsung, MS-Nokia and others are confronting us with in the next years. May it be open or closed as they like. Or is this where we see our future? Or am I completely wrong in my impression? Phew - a lot of questions and so early in the morning :) Nikolaus Preface: I haven't touched the OM list in probably 2-3 years; I just looked over at a gmail tag for it and noticed holy crap, there are over 9,000 unread messages! So many of these issues may have been addressed in some way. Well, I think a prior issue has really been about expectations and risk. When I got my GTA02, I was really looking forward to a phone. A phone for me is a reliable device that I can use as my primary contact point with the outside world for voice communication. The GTA stack wasn't nearly good enough for that. And that's perfectly ok -- but I was saddened because I expected more. The risk comes in from both the problems in it being a phone (some software stack issues, some battery life problems, some usability issues) and in being as expensive as it was. The combination of its ability to negatively impact my daily life (as a poor phone) and the cost of the device together really hurt. I'd rather it be said upfront (in big block lettering) that it's only good as a secondary device, with the plan to eventually be a good phone. I know some said that on the list, but I also heard that some people were able to make it work for their daily-use phone, and I was too hopeful. Honestly it's just too sweet a dream to expect people (like myself) to make a terribly rational decision about, without really pressing in the facts. The drop to reality I think hurt many of us early enthusiasts and really took away a lot of possible enthusiasm. For the future -- and I'm saying this as someone who'd be interested in coming back into the fold, learning what I have -- I'd like to see more of a hardware-hacker tilt to it. Closer to what we're seeing on the embedded controller accessories side (e.g. arduino et al.), perhaps in being able to directly connect to other projects' expansion boards (arduino shields? I donno much about them, just been watching from the sideline), and/or some analog/digital I/O pins. This way, the device can already be useful and fun, and it'll get a happy community while it's also ramping up its capabilities as a phone. My GTA02 may eventually come out of storage and become a small add-on to my car, with some maps, GPS, and an interface to the on-board diagnostics port to show some engine stats, etc. And that's a perfectly good place for it to end up. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
NEW PALM - And great news for OM
Ok, if you haven't seen Palm's new release yet, it's going to be a wonderfully pleasant surprise out of the old group: http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/01/08/ces-2009-palm-press-conference/ What this means: assuming palm doesn't screw this up, and I suspect they won't: - We now have 3 top-tier consumer phone platforms: iPhone, Andriod, Palm. - All 3 are Unix based. - the last two are linux based. Which already means we're going to see more good things end up in the linux kernel stack from these vendors. Less work for the OM community, as more people are interested now. But, it also means that the mobile device market is: - Heating up. More products, press, and interest - Growing. We're not going down the same route as the iPod. There isn't a clear market winner, which means it'll grow out heterogeneously into a large, diverse market. Those two mean that OM's going to have some incoming interest just by the other products driving in more customers into the marketplace. Oh, and did I mention that OM's the only one of the four that's C/Posix programmable? iPhone: Obj-C, Android: Java, Palm: HTML/AJAX/Javascript. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: NEW PALM - And great news for OM
On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra r...@1407.org wrote: On Thu, Jan 08, 2009 at 05:17:55PM -0500, Lally Singh wrote: Isn't this about the N-th time Palm has said that? Rui They've been promising forever, but this time they're out with an actual product. A new linux-based software stack, which they've been promising for as far back as I can remember. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My freerunner on ebay
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:16 PM, carmen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: every single freerunner is sold becaise 'i dont have enough time to hack on it' Not particularly. Hacking the freerunner takes quite a bit of setup and tracking. More than most expected, I suspect. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Android rootfs image?
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:39 AM, C R McClenaghan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All, I am not an official spokes person for Koolu, but I had a chance to speak with Jon Maddog Hall (self described Chief Advocate for Openmoko and in the employ of Koolu) at the Open Mobile Summit last week in San Francisco, CA. He indicated that Koolu and Sean were working together. Further, although I can not recall his exact phrasing, but as he's an open source advocate, I'm quite confidant that sources will be made available to the community by Koolu. How else will the source be made international? Perhaps someone from Koolu could set expectations for a release date and source code availability? Maddog's been part of the linux community forever -- long before it became fashionable. I can't see him holding out on us. Incidentally, my phone was part of a koolu 10-pack, and I didn't get any sort of special certificate or other means or proving I got it from them. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's GSM Calypso Modem Firmware Upgrade...
Seemingly no luck here. T-Mobile SIM, I suppose 3G. Still says sim missing. -ls ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Calling interested Glamo OpenGL developers (was: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL)
On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 3:09 AM, Timo Jyrinki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/11/21 Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: snip I'm taking a protective role for the community in all this. IMHO the community's what makes the OM phone interesting. I'd rather not see well-intentioned hackers spend long months on a venture with little likely return. This is something that depends on what the mentioned hackers want to do. It's not anyone else's job to tell others how to spend their free time. And also little return is quite relative. As for QVGA Glamo 3D support, I think it would be really worthwhile not only to have it, but to have the possibility to try out eg. Clutter-based applications during GTA02 lifeframe. It would benefit a lot also the future generations of Openmoko hardware. I'm not stopping anyone, just making sure they know what they're getting into. By the time the GTA03's entering its lifetime, hopefully there should be some good options available. I like the idea of one or more vector units.. I'm hoping that with the openness on the desktop side - AMD, Intel, Via and XGI, it cannot be indefinitely until there is also mobile graphics chipsets available with open documentation. It's not that much more special and on the desktop side you have already basically everybody but one vendor (nvidia). -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Survey about the Touchscreen
On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Yorick Moko [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: nothing a good screenprotector can't prevent 2008/11/21 Anton Persson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If you make a borderless case the risk is bigger for scratches and other damaging things to happen to the display... In that case a hard surface would be preferable. You can have a stylus for the capacitive screens: http://www.tenonedesign.com/stylus.php Donno if you can get it finer than that. Personally, the stylus is a pain 90% of the time. The last bit it's very useful, but IMHO not worth the pain the rest of the time. A 480x640 screen can show a lot of information, even if it's navigated by finger-only. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Calling interested Glamo OpenGL developers (was: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL)
to go, and I support it as a long-term objective. Whether this means choosing a GTA03 platform with really good Mesa speed, or another accelerator (preferably with both a vendor-supplied GLX driver and source documentation), it should be part of OM going forward. it's a professional opinion based on what i have seen in my years of doing graphics. i think it's a very very weak graphics chip with lots of missing holes in its featureset - given the kind of screen attached to it and the OS and windowing system as well as the goals and desires of users. if you take the OS and windowing system and goals as a given, the weak point is the glamo. a spade is a spade. :) you can cover it with topping all you like. :) I'm taking a protective role for the community in all this. IMHO the community's what makes the OM phone interesting. I'd rather not see well-intentioned hackers spend long months on a venture with little likely return. snip Openmoko's speed of progress still does not match industry speed. While the other (closed) chip vendors are already 2 generations ahead, we (Openmoko and the Free Software community) are still writing drivers for older chips. But we shouldn't let others distract us. Our software is 100% Free Software. We want to be able to install mainline kernel.org kernels one day. We want to be able to run many Linux distributions on the phone one day. We are coming from behind, but I'm sure with the help of the community we can even drag something like the glamo out into the open. 5. We will have the same problem with open 2D/3D acceleration again in the future, so breaking the glamo free could be considered a good 'exercise'. No matter whether you look at future Samsung, TI, Marvell chips. The 3D acceleration part is always closed. In other words needs to be opened by us. We might as well start with the glamo now, better than waiting for the 'perfect moment' which will never come... yeah. the future and 3d accel is a minefield. no one wants to be open about it. there are definitely viable solutions to this. hardware-wise. and they involve saying screw it to the 3d cores on soc's. you can get multi-core high speed co-processors that could be programmed to do 3d - or 2d, or media decoding.. or anything. and they are cheap and very low power... but... not easily available in silicon (yet). By the time the GTA03's entering its lifetime, hopefully there should be some good options available. I like the idea of one or more vector units.. Of course, we could just look for an embedded Sony Cell :-P -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Calling interested Glamo OpenGL developers (was: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL)
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Andy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW I talked this over with an experienced 3D guy recently about something related and he was all in favour of discarding the kdrive implementation and making a pure xorg one as a way forward: he told that kdrive itself was long dead. I also know that XGlamo is not that great a solution since it is largely the Linux framebuffer driver basically cut and pasted into userspace with the locking not being shared between kernel and userland. Whatever it's replaced with ought to be glued into kernel Glamo framebuffer driver I think at the very least for any critical shared parts like locking and this modal commandqueue stuff. He also said the same that Glamo was ES, I think 1.1. Since Graeme is going ahead with xorg generally it sounds like this is the recommended path to follow if at all possible. Lastly he mentioned 2442 has no float unit so this impacts the implementation, but apparently it's not a killer to used fixed in ES. Just fair warning here. As I don't think OM will use the Glamo in future devices, doing the right thing isn't as critical as normal software projects. Spend the energy making the best performing, most functional implementation possible. If that goal's met, *then* go back and shove it into Xorg. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Calling interested Glamo OpenGL developers (was: The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL)
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 7:42 PM, Gothnet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lally Singh wrote: Just fair warning here. As I don't think OM will use the Glamo in future devices, doing the right thing isn't as critical as normal software projects... Doing the right this IS critical to support the freerunner, going forward. I, personally, get rather worried by all this talk of supporting future revisions and not putting in too much freerunner-specific energy because it won't be loing until GTA03 is here If OM drop efforts to make 02 better, then they'll probably have a lot of folks that just won't buy the 03 because they're angry. I think the FR needs an accelerator going forward, but I doubt it's the Glamo. More importantly, I think there's a lot of potential fun to be had with this: http://www.clutter-project.org/ -ls -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Buzzing (was :The forbidden topic: Glamo OpenGL)
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 4:49 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 2008 07:22:29 + Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: On 15 Nov 2008, at 07:08, Kishore wrote: On Friday 14 Nov 2008 8:13:20 pm Gothnet wrote: Also, I know everyone loves X, but is it really the best choice for a low powered device that needs a responsive UI? ... I still would like to know more in terms of performance and memory consumption and scalability. You guys should search some of Raster's previous posts on this subject. Although you may have to go through quite a lot of posts to find his comments (!), I think you will find he has stated more than once that the performance of X is much maligned (as long as programmers are sensible and use appropriate practices). indeed it is. i have seen x (+efl) drastically (by many times) outperform directfb - on the same device. every time someone thinks that the ui sucks and the solution is dump x it is almost always from a position of lack of knowledge just what is the cause of the problem. a bit of analysis and you'll find the problem is almost always one (or more) of 1. just bad hardware (affects everyone x and others) 2. incomplete or just bad drivers (not x itself and the same problem will happen anywhere you try and accelerate so if its within x or somewhere else - same problem). 3. simple bad x apps or toolkits doing things badly, inefficiently or just trying to do things in a way that just reacts badly with the target hardware. whatever you do in replacing x - you will just replace it with the same thing under a different name. you won't improve or solve anything, as long as you want to have more than 1 process be able to display. if it's only one, dumb-fb is an option but you still need to then do the whole toolkit so see the above problem list. and you just lost multi-process access, lost a lot of support for a lot of toolkits, apps etc. if you want to x CAN be used as a dumb-fb with little extra overhead. if you really want to sink a lot of time i can go into gory detail one thing at a time... but you can also just search these lists and save me the effort :) x gives you the ability to share input devices (kbd, ts, etc.) and share the screen. you want that. it is not big and fat. it is rather small and lean. extensions exist to do just about everything. very little does not exist in some x extension these days. I just wanted to second Raster's point with a small bit of data: X was designed with much less powerful devices than the moko in mind. If you're worried about X being fat, it's not X. It's stuff built on top of X, which we don't need. X ran fine on my 8mb 486. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Compilation errors
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 1:20 AM, Charles-Henri Gros [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lally Singh wrote: Hey folks, I'm working on getting the entire OM stack to build under OpenSolaris (under an LX zone), and am having a problem. I'm using Mokomakefile. Specifically: gcc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I../../.. -I../../../src/lib/ecore -I../../../src/lib/ecore -isystem/home/moko/build/tmp/staging/i686-linux/usr/include -isystem/home/moko/build/tmp/staging/i686-linux/usr/include -Os -MT ecore_fb_li.lo -MD -MP -MF .deps/ecore_fb_li.Tpo -c ecore_fb_li.c -fPIC -DPIC -o .libs/ecore_fb_li.o | ecore_fb_li.c: In function `ecore_fb_input_device_open': | ecore_fb_li.c:402: `EV_SYN' undeclared (first use in this function) | ecore_fb_li.c:402: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once | ecore_fb_li.c:402: for each function it appears in.) | ecore_fb_li.c:422: `EV_FF_STATUS' undeclared (first use in this function) | ecore_fb_li.c:423: `EV_PWR' undeclared (first use in this function) | ecore_fb_li.c: In function `ecore_fb_input_device_axis_size_set': | ecore_fb_li.c:471: storage size of `abs_features' isn't known The symbols are defined in linux/input.h, but it looks like the -i should be a -I. Anyone know: 1) if this is the problem It's not; the option is -isystem and it appears to be used correctly. Thanks. Turns out the problem is that the build/tmp/staging/i686-linux/usr/include directory needs a copy of the linux headers underneath. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Porting MokoMakefile, odd errors
Hey folks,
I'm getting an openmoko build environment set up on OpenSolaris
(which, btw, is great). A build error is difficult for me to
interpret. I was hoping for some help. I've included the full output
below.
I'm getting this problem, though:
ERROR: iterable argument required while parsing
/research/moko/openembedded/packages/openssl/openssl-native_0.9.XY.bb
for X in 7,8 and Y in m,g.
Also:
ERROR: Information not available for target 'i86pc-sunos'
Which is understandable.
How would I go about fixing these problems? Any suggestions or
pointers to documentation would be well appreciated.
Thank you!
-ls
[EMAIL PROTECTED] moko]$ time gmake image
( cd build . ../setup-env \
( bitbake openmoko-asu-image u-boot-openmoko ) )
NOTE: Removed the following variables from the
environment:SSH_CLIENT,PS1,LD_LIBRARY_PATH,MAKEFLAGS,TZ,SHLVL,MANPATH,OMDIR,JAVA_HOME,MFLAGS,PYTHONPATH,VISUAL,LD_OPTIONS,SSH_TTY,OLDPWD,MAKELEVEL,MAIL,SSH_CONNECTION,PAGER
NOTE: Out of date cache found, rebuilding...
NOTE: Handling BitBake files: - (0899/5436) [16 %]ERROR: Information
not available for target 'i86pc-sunos'
NOTE: exceptions.TypeError:iterable argument required while evaluating:
[EMAIL PROTECTED](d)}
NOTE: exceptions.TypeError:iterable argument required while evaluating:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]('SITEINFO_ENDIANESS', 'le', '-DL_ENDIAN',
'-DB_ENDIAN', d)} -DTERMIO -fexpensive-optimizations
-frename-registers -fomit-frame-pointer -Os -Wall
NOTE: exceptions.TypeError:iterable argument required while evaluating:
${@'${CFLAG}'.replace('-O2', '')}
ERROR: iterable argument required while parsing
/research/moko/openembedded/packages/openssl/openssl-native_0.9.7m.bb
NOTE: Handling BitBake files: \ (0902/5436) [16 %]ERROR: Information
not available for target 'i86pc-sunos'
NOTE: exceptions.TypeError:iterable argument required while evaluating:
[EMAIL PROTECTED](d)}
NOTE: exceptions.TypeError:iterable argument required while evaluating:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]('SITEINFO_ENDIANESS', 'le', '-DL_ENDIAN',
'-DB_ENDIAN', d)} -DTERMIO -fexpensive-optimizations
-frename-registers -fomit-frame-pointer -Os -Wall
NOTE: exceptions.TypeError:iterable argument required while evaluating:
${@'${CFLAG}'.replace('-O2', '')}
ERROR: iterable argument required while parsing
/research/moko/openembedded/packages/openssl/openssl-native_0.9.7g.bb
NOTE: Handling BitBake files: | (0904/5436) [16 %]ERROR: Information
not available for target 'i86pc-sunos'
NOTE: exceptions.TypeError:iterable argument required while evaluating:
[EMAIL PROTECTED](d)}
NOTE: exceptions.TypeError:iterable argument required while evaluating:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]('SITEINFO_ENDIANESS', 'le', '-DL_ENDIAN',
'-DB_ENDIAN', d)} -DTERMIO -fexpensive-optimizations
-frename-registers -fomit-frame-pointer -Os -Wall
NOTE: exceptions.TypeError:iterable argument required while evaluating:
${@'${CFLAG}'.replace('-O2', '')}
ERROR: iterable argument required while parsing
/research/moko/openembedded/packages/openssl/openssl-native_0.9.8g.bb
NOTE: Handling BitBake files: | (5436/5436) [100 %]
NOTE: Parsing finished. 0 cached, 5196 parsed, 237 skipped, 0 masked.
ERROR: Parsing errors found, exiting...
gmake: *** [openmoko-asu-image] Error 1
real2m15.427s
user1m57.723s
sys 0m6.409s
--
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech
___
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Re: Opkg: how to protect configuration files?
On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Geoff Ruscoe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Rod Whitby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The packager of whatever package includes that file needs to set CONFFILES to include that file. Then opkg will ask you whether you want to overwrite the file, or keep your old one, or drop you into a shell to do a manual merge. So am I to understand that when they are packaging the config files they are just not packaging them correctly? Because many of my config files get overwritten without asking me anything when I do an opkg upgrade. So they just need to fix the way they are packaging them? Specifically, the one that comes to mind right now is 89qtopia because of the gsm mux enhancement. If you don't want to wait for people to get their packages straight, you could push your configuration data into SVN (or the like), and then use it to track changes. Overwrites on conflicting settings should show up as merge conflicts after an 'svn merge'. All changed files will show up in 'svn status'. Just commit before running opkg when you have it the way you like. Use tags to denote which configurations you liked :-) -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Mac USB Networking
Hey all, Just got the FR yesterday (nice physical design). I installed the patched network driver listed under Apple CDC Ethernet driver 10.5.x, and the Networking pane shows a USB serial connection, but no ethernet. It also does not show up as enXX in ifconfig. This is OS X 10.5.4. I can use dfu-util fine. But, I haven't found a way to get the wifi working yet, so the device is networkless. Anyone else have a mac with a working usb networking setup? What'd you do? I'll happily update the wiki with the result. Here's my ifconfig when the device is plugged in (this was right before I did the dfu-util reflash): lo0: flags=8049UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST mtu 16384 inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff00 inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128 inet6 fd5d:a24b:2849:fed7:217:f2ff:fece:65ba prefixlen 128 gif0: flags=8010POINTOPOINT,MULTICAST mtu 1280 stf0: flags=0 mtu 1280 en0: flags=8863UP,BROADCAST,SMART,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST mtu 1500 ether 00:17:f2:ce:65:ba media: autoselect status: inactive supported media: autoselect 10baseT/UTP half-duplex 10baseT/UTP full-duplex 10baseT/UTP full-duplex,hw-loopback 10baseT/UTP full-duplex,flow-control 100baseTX half-duplex 100baseTX full-duplex 100baseTX full-duplex,hw-loopback 100baseTX full-duplex,flow-control 1000baseT full-duplex 1000baseT full-duplex,hw-loopback 1000baseT full-duplex,flow-control none fw0: flags=8822BROADCAST,SMART,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST mtu 2030 lladdr 00:19:e3:ff:fe:22:6b:5c media: autoselect full-duplex status: inactive supported media: autoselect full-duplex en1: flags=8863UP,BROADCAST,SMART,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST mtu 1500 inet6 fe80::219:e3ff:fe04:85c2%en1 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x6 inet 10.0.1.2 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 10.0.1.255 ether 00:19:e3:04:85:c2 media: autoselect status: active supported media: autoselect vmnet8: flags=8863UP,BROADCAST,SMART,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST mtu 1500 inet 172.16.1.1 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 172.16.1.255 ether 00:50:56:c0:00:08 vmnet1: flags=8863UP,BROADCAST,SMART,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST mtu 1500 inet 172.16.74.1 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 172.16.74.255 ether 00:50:56:c0:00:01 Thanks in advance! -ls -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Frogpad keyboard and Neo Freerunner
On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:34 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lally Singh wrote: On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Pablo Ruiz Múzquiz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! I've seen some mails on this topic but I can't find any conclusive one. There's a quick video demoing frogpad keyboard but it's difficult to see wether it's the usb or bt model.. Anyway, the question is, does Frogpad make a good companion for a FR? It appears to be so, but I'd like some comments. Haven't used it yet (my FR comes in today!!), but I was thinking the same as you. The USB should certainly work, as Linux is listed in the compat. listing @ thinkgeek's description thereof. Please add to the list of accessories on the wiki, noting whether these work or don't work. Haha, it's already on there, and seems to work fine. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko.org is down?
http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 To me is running, check if it is not a local problem! :) SCarlson wrote: Anyone know whats up with openmoko.org? -Scott -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIyBX4SIAU/I6SkT0RAgmNAKCBwMlrt/JJ74PZdkYvNZ2hAdl6mgCdFw91 txJurssMQDasVCALUOt3xbY= =0Kp0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: how to compile from source directly from a neo freerunner
On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:40 AM, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thomas Bertani wrote: I want to compile (with ./configure;make;make install) a software from source on the neo freerunner without sdk or toolchain, directly from the phone. What I have to install? Well, wouldn't it so slow? It's a 400Mhz, btw! :P A few of us here started with much slower desktop PCs. Like pentium-90s. Now all we need is a symbol keyword completing keyboard for C/C++ :-) -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Chancing SIM card without reboot
On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/9/5 Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED]: To get it you must to have double GSM hardware, double standbay power consume, and so a higher cost! There are those who want cheap, and those who want features. To which market does OpenMoko aspire to cater to? Hmm, didn't we just pay nearly $400 for this thing? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA05 suggestions
On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Radek Bartoň [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Card accesible from outside would be great too. Disassembling hood and SIM card is really annoying so far. A second USB port would be nice, too. There's a lot of fun to be had in hooking external electronics to the OM. Honestly, so much fun that it's really worth exploring. But, it's not really fair to expect OM to sell (or bundle in) all the little goodies we'd like, like the X10 transceiver, compass, etc. Instead, how about two screw bolts around one of the USB connectors (like the PSP) and some means of getting a little plastic case electronics board that plugs in. I'm thinking more of a listing with a 3rd party USB enclosure for custom electronics. Let the community build the cool stuff, and we'll share what we did! OM's only got to: 1) decide on a USB enclosure to be physically compatible with 2) add in the screw bolts around a USB port. And the rest of us can have all the fun hacking away with the possibilities :-) -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
Any sort of warranty? A purchasable extended warranty? Spare parts prices? Anything? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
OM said that they were deciding on something beyond DOA. Also, Koolu doesn't offer a warranty (just the same 14/28 DOA warranty), and they're the only place you can get a FR in north america, so there's no help there. On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Francesco Cat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Warranty depends only from the distributor. Phone buyed from the openmoko store only have the DOA warranty (14 days). Please if you want to know more things search the mailing list (EG: what DOA means). 2008/8/27 Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Any sort of warranty? A purchasable extended warranty? Spare parts prices? Anything? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fourth Request: What is the warranty for the FreeRunner?
Yeah, I know. I was hoping I'd get a response about the policy they're working on. Is it a proper warranty? An extended one (e.g. pay extra for a warranty)? Or just a declaration of what constitutes a defect that OM will repair? On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OM said that they were deciding on something beyond DOA. Also, Koolu doesn't offer a warranty (just the same 14/28 DOA warranty), and they're the only place you can get a FR in north america, so there's no help there. I thought Steve's email was pretty clear, though its probably not what you wanted to hear: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-August/027044.html They're working on policy. I'm sure they'll announce it when its ready. In the mean time the policy is DOA. If you have problems, email Steve and he'll try to help. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SDcard holder - convenience rework
Also, you can get adhesive tabs that will work just as well, and they're designed for the purpose. That way, everyone gets a colored part that isn't sticky. On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 1:42 PM, papa-piet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hehe, i have had a similar idea, but in my case it was the battery. Thanks to jOERG i was able to improve my hack :) papa-piet http://freeyourphone.de Joerg Reisenweber schrieb: for a nice handle to save your fingernails and do no violence on SD-holder by using a knife etc, see: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/sdcard-handle note the pretty original scotchtape-end of the transparent sticky tape ;-) Works like a charm! cheers jOERG ps: thanks to XorA for triggering the idea by complaining about the varnish-killer ;-) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
850 10 pack availability, and dibs
Hey folks, Any ideas when the 850 10 packs will be available again? Btw, I'm completely calling dibs on the first one for the NY group :-) Thanks, -ls -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 2:29 AM, Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Lally Singh: The warranty is also bugging me. Is there anywhere else I could get one? Or would OM be willing to sell an extended warranty for a bit more $$? Our sales and marketing both are in US working on this now, no extended warranty yet. If one's coming, and I don't get a dead FR before that, that's good :-) Please, I'd like to emphasize again, that it's a *real* issue for me. I can hack the software stack day and night (and I'd like to do some work to make it easier for others to do the same), but dead HW is no good. Or at least a cheap spare parts program? I don't mind swapping out parts if they're available at reasonable prices. We might have spare part or re-work package, but still under discussion. What spare part you need? My 10-pack order group just got the 10th member, so I haven't even put an order in yet. I'd just like the parts to be available so I don't have to shell out another $400 if something screws up. Even if they're the working parts cannibalized from dead RMA'd FRs, I'm fine with that. Especially if it made the parts cheaper. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Third request: what *is* the warranty on the Freerunner?
The warranty is also bugging me. Is there anywhere else I could get one? Or would OM be willing to sell an extended warranty for a bit more $$? Or at least a cheap spare parts program? I don't mind swapping out parts if they're available at reasonable prices. On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jim Morris wrote: ian douglas wrote: Guys, My intention was not to create a message thread for people to vent about what they like or not about the Freerunner. I created the thread to get an official stance from Openmoko about the state of the warranty, and if it would cover any hardware fix offered by OM for the GPS/SD problems. And a good thread it was too :) I am also very curious about the potential GSM fixes. Will these be done by sending it back, or will it be something us hackers can do (and soldering sub-micron capacitors to invisible traces I do not consider your average hacker can do, and I have been playing with a soldering iron for 35 years, and I would not attempt it :) The GSM problems particularly worry me, because it does make the phone useless as a phone and I need to know if I need to go buy another phone as a primary phone or not. Whereas problems with GPS SDCARDS are not show stoppers for me. Have you tried the recommended approach of a new SIM card? Who is your carrier? Have you added them to the GSM database on the wiki? Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Let us impact the material world
Hmm, I'd personally like a good tor client on there. Of course, tor also needs more relays :-P Still, if we want real freedom, it's a step in the right direction. On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Paul Wouters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 27 Jun 2008, Nelson Castillo wrote: I think encrypted messages are crucial for freedom. I also think most people don't know how easy it is for others to see what they send through the networks. I cannot wait to see those Encrypted messages traveling free through _their_ networks to deliver _our_ messages. That means: - Phase out SMS in favour of IM (SMS char limit makes crypto hard, cheaper too) - Use OTR with IM (http://otr.cypherpunks.ca) I am not sure at the current state of IM clients, but there are python bindings for OTR at http://pyotr.pentabarf.de/ I will go at it as soon as I can order my Freerunner in Canada Paul ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: moko running everything as root
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 4:26 PM, Knight Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The root/user separation is the most fundamental part of a security policy and here is why. Root is by its nature not only unrestricted but unrestrictable (I think I just made up a new word). A non-root user can only destroy the data that user owns. Now while the conventional desktop, user johndoe owns all his MP3s and pr0n and thus can delete and otherwise destroy them; on the Moko platform, the extensive use of DBus makes destruction of the most important part more difficult. What I'm saying is that (Where possible) a daemon holds the important data (PIM data, calendar data, etc) and is capable of restricting what the user can do with it. The user account communicates with this daemon (via DBus or whatever) and gets the data the user wants while protecting the same. Both being normal users, they are not allowed to step on each other, but if the user is root, then someone with malicious intents can exploit that user account to step on the guardian account, either causing a DoS (crash) or actually manipulating/destroying data. Actually, I think you've just sold me. I'm thinking about Openmoko a lot like I think of a desktop system (having looked at the way the data is on Om currently) that holds everything is a file and while it may be true, from an action perspective passing information through a non-root, non-user daemon exposes that information to the user in a way that's more than simply dealing with a file. That's the goal of the ASU/zhone and it's a management case I wasn't even thinking of. Tradition bit me in the ass, thanks for spelling that one out for me, I like it a lot. :) Hmm, are we talking about one unix login name per app? Not unlike what you do for mysql, etc. Some good advantages: 1. Applications can't hurt each other, or the system 2. Backing up an app is simple: tar czvf /tmp/app.tar.gz /home/app Really useful when doing software dev. Just copy the folder to one with another name, chmod -R 000 it. 3. An unusually transparent way to figure out whan an app is storing. Maybe they could have their homes somewhere less anthropological? Such as /usr/share/apps/foo? Where the permissions are set up the same (read-only for everyone, except the owning user?) The real user of the phone can use sudo to get to what they need. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: My blog: Photo Tour Of The ASU
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone. Over the weekend I took perhaps 50 or so screenshots of the ASU on a Freerunner. A lot of them are repetitive, simply showing all of the options on a given application. But others are interesting and show some new or under-reviewed applications. I'm glad Raster joined up w/Moko for this. What's that slider view for (the one with three panels)? The equations, zoomed text, giant icon, etc? I'm guessing something goes in there, but I have no idea what. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why not use forum?
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Pawel Kowalak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2008-06-12, at 17:30, Leonti Bielski wrote: Hi! I was wondering - why are we not using forum for community? It's much better to view, you can subscribe and unsubscribe to the topics you want and etc. For me, mailing list is much better to view, filter, read off-line, quick download etc. etc. For admins, mailing list is much easier to maintain (no buggy, crappy phpBB, etc.). Personally I don't like mailing list because it's not that comfortable and I can see no advatages of using mailing list instead of forum? Personally I see no advantages of web forums ;) Well, it's a more reliable method to isolate threads from each other. For example, the whole PANIC! iPhone is $200! thread is listed as a dozen or more threads in gmail right now. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Ken Young [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 07:57:13AM +0800, Carsten Haitzler wrote: the day the design mockups for the ui i see stop having alpha transparency is the day i make this unimportant. until that day, your i don't care about this is the kind of opinion that i also am not interested in, because i am being shown ui designs hat REQUIRE it in the long run between windows, and in the short term is being faked with software within windows. i am just trying to make something possible that is being requested, and has been for a long time. not just say i don't care. The problem isn't that transparency effects, and other CPU/GPU intensitve UI enhancements, are unimportant. On a handheld device they *are* important.They make the device worse.It is important to resist the push to add eye-candy to a handheld device, because every CPU/GPU cycle spent animating an icon, or making a window translucent, eats some of the energy stored in your battery, and reduces the amount of useful work which can be done between recharges. I disagree with such categorical statements. There is a trade-off between usability and performance (e.g. user performance and device performance). The optimal value is in between, dependent on both user and system capabilities. The iPhone is success *because* of its heavy bias for user performance over system performance. The hardware isn't novel, but the UI is, and it makes all the difference. Example: Shadows on windows on Mac OS X --- the shadows indicate, better than any titlebar hilight ever will, what window has focus. Using the brain's innate understanding of depth provides user-side hardware acceleration for this activity. Example: Desktop switcher animation --- when switching virtual desktops, having the windows slide off to the appropriate side is critical for building a spatial model in the user's mind. http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/finder.ars/2 Geeks will probably want a different set of trade-offs between usability performance, but those are best done as customizations on an expert platform. One that we hope that OM will become. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:44 AM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:10:20 + (GMT) David Samblas Martinez [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Hi Carsten I suppose you passion to be in favor of qvga has to have an strong reason. You have asked to us why be prefer vga vs qvga and I thing this long long thread can be resumed as because is better (isolating it to resolution question only) I propose you to the answer the reverse question and please be as truefull as you can. You considerer than downgrade the resolution will improve so much the perfomance of the hole system to justify it? if so, as long as this decision is only concern to GTA03 (the camera version of GTA02 to simplify) I will change my mind and advocate for a qvga version, and in the marketing view it well still make sense, one version to professional use with no camera and more res to console/spectrometer/and other remote control funny stuff and other more phone like with camera able to do all the above but not so clean so more for hobbyist than profesionals, of for other needs, mean while booth can coexist and costumer is able to choose it will be more than pretty. it is an option for gta03 - if there is enough push to go to it, but it is unlikely. gta04 and beyond is an unwritten book at this stage and i want to know what happens when we go to differing resolutions. at the end of the day many phones still are produced to this very day at qvga resolution. it is not unusual. but i suspect we may need to go to qvga or wqvga at some point out of necessity (eg we make a miniature phone that is 1/2 the size of the freerunner - qvga is very very likely - or even less as vga just wont be available at that size). it all depends on many factors. i am beating the qvga drum because i seriously think that vga - at the physical size we have (2.8) while looking gorgeous for stills and text, for most people is a blurr and overkill in cost and drags down performance. maybe i am focusing on the more average joe who doesn't want an 80x24 terminal - the average person who wants just to make calls, read and write sms's and take some photos... for the most common uses of a phone qvga is more than enough. vga is only necessary for some very specialised uses. other than that it's just bragging rights on my phone has more pixels than yours :) But if this decision concern GTA04 and beyond ,or gta03 will replace gta02, I will not agree(LOL, I said it like I have some influence in openmoko decisions) because we must go forward and increase specs (and performance), Let's be honest with ourselves. The regular joe's going to buy iPhones (or, *shudder* RAZRs) for quite some time. You can't just walk into Verizon to buy it, the software for the device isn't finished, and it costs twice as much as an iPhone. It's going to be a geek phone for some time. GTA04(5,6?) may be interesting to consumers, but that's a ways off. In the mean time, ignoring the current primary demographic -- geeks -- will kill off the phone before it has a chance to become usable for the demographic you want: consumers. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features assumptions
, read PDFs and so on. The idea of an open phone fires our imagination because we can integrate our contacts from our LDAP servers and our diary with an iCal server, we can do whatever the heck we want with Openmoko - we want to ADD features, not remove them. In the context of that, does animation and transparency matter? Heck no! We want a phone that displays text icons on the screen, and as long as the phone does that quick enough, we don't want you wasting resources on trying to make the experience more flashy. There has been mention in these threads about the screen requirements of smaller phones. I can only conclude from this that FIC are planning to leverage their experience in building smartphone hardware in order to break into to the larger market of small girlie and soccer mom phones. Fine, but please don't do this at the expense of your smartphone market. Honestly, I don't see how you can do this well, without castrating your power-phone offerings. Parts of this conversation have focussed on making a use case for VGA screens, but please, FIC management, make a use case for transparency and flashy animations before having Carsten work on it. Whilst I was writing an Apple spam arrived here, promoting today's new iPhone announcement - I clicked on the link to iSteve's presentation. The enterprise take-up from Fortune 500 companies was surely impressive, but this leverage is because of Exchange- compatibility and all the features that OS X gives to the iPhone for free, not the flashy animations. This is where Openmoko can compete. I could write a lot, LOT more here, Stroller. If OM's going QVGA onwards, please let me know now, so I won't waste $400 on a dead-end phone platform. Seriously, it's 2008. If you can't do it at 640x480, get a better CPU. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me the price advantage over an iPhone is very real. Good for you. It's not the case for others. I'm going to have a cell phone for the next 2 years, and prepaid plans cost me plenty when I add in things like text messaging and data. Atop of that, my family has 10,000 rollover minutes just sitting there. For me, it'd be $40/month to jump on that plan, and $200 for the phone. The monthly fee is fairly constant, no matter where I go (and probably higher outside of ATT than in), and the 2 year contract is irrelevant (I'll be using a phone for the next 2 yrs, and in the US a contract is pretty standard), so it really does just come down to $200 vs whatever another phone costs. Sheesh. We get it, we just don't care. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Steven Kurylo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 5:12 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:06:16 +0300 Flyin_bbb8 [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: actually - no. most linux developers and users i know need contacts/glasses and they can never read my screen and complain about my fonts being so small all the time (not that i will ever change. i love my small fonts!), but i ma going off anecdotal evidence over many years of me being one of a very small minority who can read and use such a high dpi with small fonts. i am bemused by so many vocal people here claiming to me what seems to be the reverse of my experience over many years - as well as going directly against actual product specs - eg, iphone dpi is very much lower than the neo, but a large margin, but users rave how nice it is. Without being able to see them side by side I'm always going to want the higher spec. I have my blackberry 7130g set to the smallest font size available and wish it could go smaller. I think the screen is 240 x 260, 2.4. However most other people have trouble reading my bb, so I'm willing to say I'm in the minority. I'm pretty surprised the QVGA idea's getting any traction. It's 2008. The GTA02 can be a little old-fashioned in exchange for it being open, but the smartphone software market is opening up, and people will become more willing to exchange some less openness for better hardware. The Freerunner I'll buy, but only due to current desires for a new toy to hack with. Its successors will need to be some advanced hardware -- freedom's only good on a platform that stays worthwhile. Frankly, I don't think too many people on this list are terribly price sensitive -- we're putting up with a lot of variability in shipping dates, hundreds of $$ for a phone whose software stacks will barely be operational at launch, and the lack of the sort of live support you'd get out of a decent phone shop. Put together a new hardware platform after this, and charge us for it! The novelty of openness is only worth so much by itself. This is all in the most sincere support of OM, but what kind of friend would I be if I didn't tell you the whole truth? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: USA, East coast groupe order
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Feydreva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in New york. New york group is already 5. Why not all go in the NY group then ? I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the phone in VA. Philippe Indeed. I'm in southwest va for school, but my family's right outside DC. A NY trip sounds fun. Maybe we can ship to NY, then a few of us can go up to NY for a weekend of good drinking OM fun? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS -- AGPS
A quick look on google says that GPS is required for all cell phones (well, E911 requires that 911 calls from cell phones also get the coordinates, and operators didn't want to change all their towers, so they started requiring their phones to have GPS). Sadly, most phones don't allow application access to that data, perhaps due to some cost-saving measures (like stripping down the correlator, etc). AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple satellite triangulation. On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Tyrell Berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry if this question is completely ignorant, but I am always seeking understanding, and my previous understanding is inconsistant with the discussion here. I had originally believed 2 things. First, that AGPS was required by law in all US cell phones (Possibly elsewhere). And second, I had believed that AGPS was simply GPS with assistence from triangulating off of the GSM towers as well. Meaning, I thought AGPS was a combination of satallite GPS and the sort of triangulation Google Maps does in the iPhone. Further, I thought I read a comment somewhere, maybe a year ago, maybe more, (And I can't find the reference now) to the effect of because the neo is required to have an AGPS chip, we will be giving the user access. And so I guess my question is, is it legal to operate the Neo without AGPS? And is there more (Or less) functionality coming from the assist portion of the AGPS? In all fairness, I have been confused before, and I will be confused again. I hope my ignorance hasn't opened up a larger can of worms... Thank you in advance for your response. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger- compatible (we also hate stylii), I think what you're saying there is that 1st-party apps will be finger-compatible, but that ported applications are not sure to be optimised for finger use. _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to operate with a stylus. If the Openmoko dream is a beautiful, consistent interface that doesn't need a stylus, then including a slot for one is kinda an admission of defeat. Surely most end-users are - in the long-term future of Openmoko - going to use mostly the preinstalled applications, or the core distro and only add one or two extra applications. Sure, developers of those additional apps are going to need stylii, as they compile Thunderbird for ARM architecture and the buttons are really tiny, but the aim of applications coming-on-board to Openmoko should surely to be finger-capable. Including a stylus holder just allows developers to say, oh, fingers don't matter. There are a dozen smartphones out there that I can buy now with tiny little touchscreens that need a stylus, but these are used only by geeks. The majority of people buy still buy phones with a number pad and some kind of navigating aid (a tiny wheel, or joystick nub, or up-down-left-right arrow buttons). Why is this? Probably because people like using their fingers to access their phone. I know this is an old, and perhaps divisive, debate, where never the twain will meet, but Openmoko has a great opportunity here to make a phone that combines power with ease-of-use. Enable anyone to install extra apps on their phone, and *anyone* to use it. A fiddly stylus just makes the device less accessible. I'm no fan of the You can only have it my way, not your way, and not both idea. Especially for open devices. But, for the topic at hand: My Treo 650 has a stylus, and I pull it out for certain apps (Bejeweled and several other games come to mind). My day-to-day applications don't require one at all. Certain mobile apps are worth pulling out a stylus for, and they're better for it. There's no need to ban an input device in fear of abuse on an open system. Any decent app that people like, that mistakenly requires a stylus, will get patched pretty quick. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/5/08, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with Michael. The only reason I want a Freerunner, is because it is open. Open's great. But Open+Powerful would also be nice. I can't be the only one itching to use a GPU as a parallel coprocessor on this list. *sigh* so far it's only CUDA (AFAIK) that's even touching mobile devices. Man I wish we had a handspring-type connector and some little modules for this kind of stuff. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GPS -- AGPS
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Joerg Reisenweber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Do 5. Juni 2008 schrieb Lally Singh: AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple satellite triangulation. It's about reducing TTFF, not increasing accuracy [1]. Basically you tell the receiver which sats it should expect, so it doesn't have to check all possible channels and download the data from sat (AFAIK). See ephem and alm in uBlox paper. [1] Increasing accuracy is differential-GPS, where you have a reference receiver at known position, so you can tell pos of 2nd relative to ref in sub-meter accuracy. Also see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS which I found just after typing the above. Ah, my mistake. I was hoping for more than just an almanac/ephem upload. I'm a lot less excited now. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
Seen this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7430768.stm http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/02/nvidia-launches-tegra-hopes-to-change-the-smartphone-mid-game/ The Tegra line will be all-in-one, integrated systems on a chip, containing an 800MHz ARM CPU, GeForce GPU, image processor, HD video processor, and controllers for all other aspects of core operations (memory, USB ports, communication) -- in a package about the size of a dime. The range will come in two varieties to start -- the Tegra 600 and the Tegra 650. Both chips can run games like Quake 3 with full filters and anti-aliasing at rates of more than 40 FPS, and will support 1080p HDMI, WSXGA+ LCD or CRT, and NTSC/PAL TV outs. It's still ARM based, so it should work with OM. It'll run Android if you want, and may end up with a slightly smaller phone, as it integrates the GPU. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: using the openmoko neo101 in mass storage mode
On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Ilja O. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: wild speculation Having two memory card slots (one for OS, one easy accessible for usage with changeable memory cards) could be nicer than standard (current) architecture. You flush operating system with simple card reader. Ant this eliminates need in backup OS (currently stored in NOR flash, afaik). Also this would make phones' main memory easy expandable. It sounds nice! /wild speculation Also, a second, externally-accessible slot would be nice for external peripherals that need more than what USB can provide. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Software Status Update
Yup. It'll be a few weeks, for testing, packaging, etc. On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Alexander Frøyseth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does this mean that FreeRunner arent shipped this week?? steve skrev: Ok, It should not be a secret to anybody that there is a substantial work being done on the software side. Frankly, I am not able to answer any detailed questions on it because I'm just focused on getting the hardware out with a bare bones ( dialer/contact/sms) level of software functionality. My approach was simple. Give me a phone and a hello world dialer app and I will ship. By the time that phone lands in peoples paws, there will be a software update. I'll start to detail that new software in the next few weeks. Raster, can you address the enlightenment issue mentioned below. I'd just beclown myself if I tried. I'm hoping to get some stuff up on the wiki, but in due course. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Jon Booker Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 6:58 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Software Status On Sun, 4 May 2008 18:39:10 -0700 steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, I need to update everybody on software. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sebastian Reichel Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 6:08 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: When will you update the Production Status, steve? the weekend is almost gone (actually it is already here in Germany, where it's 3:00 now), so where are the updates? :D Since the last time someone made some prodding was successful, may I ask for some official news on the software side? I'm guessing it's everything at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenmokoFramework (which that page says will be in alpha version next month) and http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/NeoSoftwareStack (which really does raise the question of how Android is expected to fit into this, and what some of the new applications like illume, assassin, pidjin, etc really are). Or maybe it's the test cases and test reports being publicly posted? Btw, how deeply is enlightenment going to be involved in the OM software? Are applications going to need to be programmed with EFL to have a native look-and-feel on the Freerunner? Thanks, Joseph Booker ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Re: OM IDE (was: Re: Common Lisp for OM (Was: Programming OM))
Just to clarify, NB would run on a desktop computer, and cross compile for OM. I'm imagining a situation not unlike CW for Palm (I had to dev on that a few years ago). It compiles the code and uploads it to the emulator, which you can run the debugger on. Then you upload it to your OM device, and maybe do some more debugging on there. I'll have to see what's required to get the debugger working on both the emulator and the actual dev. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Jeremy List [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote: div class=moz-text-flowed style=font-family: -moz-fixedBastian Muck ha scritto: Soulnds like a good idea, even if i preferred Eclipse more ;-). I don't have any problems with Eclipse and use it for Java, PHP and C. But if you prefer Netbeans and you want to write the plugin it's over to you. So when it's finished I will install Netbeans, too. Completely agree...! :) Eclipse is alright if you can't type very fast, or if you have a very fast computer, but cutting it down enough to be remotely usable on a freerunner is probably more effort than it would be worth. When I was using it I found I had to disable so much just so it would operate at the speed I write code that I would have been better off just coding with nano. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIIjkBjK3MZIZPmKIRAkWlAJ9IZ/HM3GEL3/p35WyghGQ1eYr+XQCeN2kc XAnt5vrsVjJmQXwCovSPEF4= =ydPg -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: questions for steve regarding group purchases
So what you really want is for the OM store to give a 10% discount. On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 3:52 AM, Michele Renda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Idea was this: Openmoko can manage all the orders and to receive the payments: they can build a sites, that collect the orders, and with an option to indicate to which Sales Group to receive (Update in real time with the number of allocated phones). The person that is available to receive the phones has the work only to receive and to fix a Saturday or a Sunday an appointament to a place. In this way: 1. Is more easy to run with the money, not with 10 openmoko 2. If a person can not to continue to be the hub, before the expedition, Openmoko can simply to change the spedition address 3. The situation will be more trasparent 4. There will not be a problem if a person don't want more a phone. The cost of all this is only a web application and x 10 transaction fees (that on 399 $ I hope are not too much) This is my idea Robin Paulson wrote: steve, what methods are being considered by openmoko for group purchasing? most of us do now know the other members of a group and would like some security that the group organised is not able to run off with the money - are openmoko willing to engage in purchases via escrow agents? or is it a case of 'sort it our amongst yourselves, all we want is a c card number or paypal account'? if the latter is the case, is there anything/anyone openmoko or anyone else here can recommend for making sure things go smoothly? thanks ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner...when??
Nobody's 100% sure (not even OM), but it looks like they'll do their first production run in the next few (e.g. 3-5) days. Should be available a little bit after that, say 1-2 weeks? On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 5:27 AM, Giorgio M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi to everybody, i'm new in the community list and I have a simple question: after a lot of time (too many time..), when (finally) Freerunner will be sold exactly?? thanks -- Email.it, the professional e-mail, gratis per te: http://www.email.it/f Sponsor: CONCORSO BEST WESTERN Gioca e vinci! In palio ogni giorno buoni sconto da 50€ per soggiorni in tutto il mondo ed estrazione finale di una Citroen C1 Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=7802d=20080508 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko fans web site
A site like that would be great if it followed something like sourceforge.net, plus some discussion forums. Maybe we already have this sort of stuff, and (yet again), I'm clueless? On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Ryan Prior [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My guess is that it's not up yet; he's yet to create it, and asking for our input as to what it should have. On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 9:03 AM, Mo Abrahams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not working for me either... slashdotted? On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 08:53 -0500, Kosa wrote: not working... Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible - luther escribió: all, we are prepare create the openmoko fans site, if anyone interest it ,or any ideal please tell me! the doman name is www.openmokofans.com Luther ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko fans web site
Excellent!! Now all we need are discussion forums. On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Kim Alvefur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 14:53 -0400, Lally Singh wrote: A site like that would be great if it followed something like sourceforge.net, plus some discussion forums. Like this: http://projects.openmoko.org/ ? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
OM IDE (was: Re: Common Lisp for OM (Was: Programming OM))
Nah, I'd been planning on getting haskell up for OM. They already have a basic ARM target for ghc, and there's already a haskell-GTK mapping. But, now that we're talking about development environments, who'd be interested in using an IDE for developing OM? I was thinking about putting together a Netbeans plugin to dev for it. I'm wondering: 1. anyone want to use such a thing? 2. anyone wanna help? I'll be using Mac OS X solaris personally (probably more of the latter), but if someone'd be up for testing it on Linux, I'd be happy to support that too. A nice little basis to create wizards for all kinds of OM applications, plugins, etc. sounds like good community open-source fun. I'd consider this my first big contribution to OM, so I'm happy to do it. Please, no religious wars on Java/NetBeans, etc. Feel free to use the work for your own desires after, but I've been through enough dev cycles on other platforms that I'm feeling pretty firm on this. If you say 'Eclipse', I'm going to traceroute you from a cell modem in my car, and bring a baseball bat with me. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Oliver Uvman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesus! I thought I was the only one wanting to program CL on the OM. I've had lots of interesting ideas on how to use a gesture-based interface for writing CL, which could work only thanks to the sparse syntax, and plan to make that some of the first things I program for my OM. Hooray! /Oliver Uvman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OM IDE (was: Re: Common Lisp for OM (Was: Programming OM))
Eclipse has a faster widget toolkit, but it tends to be a lot buggier dumber about a lot of things. You end up spending a lot more time fiddling with it to work right than NB. The tradeoff w/NB is that it tends to do the right thing, but is slower. Definitely so on my mac, but the speed difference on Solaris isn't noticeable on my opteron sun box. Also, it comes with some stuff that you have to get separately (sometimes at cost, or with a annoyware freeware version) for eclipse. UML editing comes to mind. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's wrong with Eclipse? It's much more common for embedded IDE's isn't it? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lally Singh Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 12:08 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: OM IDE (was: Re: Common Lisp for OM (Was: Programming OM)) Nah, I'd been planning on getting haskell up for OM. They already have a basic ARM target for ghc, and there's already a haskell-GTK mapping. But, now that we're talking about development environments, who'd be interested in using an IDE for developing OM? I was thinking about putting together a Netbeans plugin to dev for it. I'm wondering: 1. anyone want to use such a thing? 2. anyone wanna help? I'll be using Mac OS X solaris personally (probably more of the latter), but if someone'd be up for testing it on Linux, I'd be happy to support that too. A nice little basis to create wizards for all kinds of OM applications, plugins, etc. sounds like good community open-source fun. I'd consider this my first big contribution to OM, so I'm happy to do it. Please, no religious wars on Java/NetBeans, etc. Feel free to use the work for your own desires after, but I've been through enough dev cycles on other platforms that I'm feeling pretty firm on this. If you say 'Eclipse', I'm going to traceroute you from a cell modem in my car, and bring a baseball bat with me. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Oliver Uvman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesus! I thought I was the only one wanting to program CL on the OM. I've had lots of interesting ideas on how to use a gesture-based interface for writing CL, which could work only thanks to the sparse syntax, and plan to make that some of the first things I program for my OM. Hooray! /Oliver Uvman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OM IDE (was: Re: Common Lisp for OM (Was: Programming OM))
You're welcome to do so :-) I use NB for development for my day job the PhD. I also have no respect for KDevelop. I think it's almost as terrible as Visual Studio. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm... KDevelop 4? (it's being reimplemented and is looking super-nifty by now) :) Wednesday 07 May 2008 skrev Lally Singh: Nah, I'd been planning on getting haskell up for OM. They already have a basic ARM target for ghc, and there's already a haskell-GTK mapping. But, now that we're talking about development environments, who'd be interested in using an IDE for developing OM? I was thinking about putting together a Netbeans plugin to dev for it. I'm wondering: 1. anyone want to use such a thing? 2. anyone wanna help? I'll be using Mac OS X solaris personally (probably more of the latter), but if someone'd be up for testing it on Linux, I'd be happy to support that too. A nice little basis to create wizards for all kinds of OM applications, plugins, etc. sounds like good community open-source fun. I'd consider this my first big contribution to OM, so I'm happy to do it. Please, no religious wars on Java/NetBeans, etc. Feel free to use the work for your own desires after, but I've been through enough dev cycles on other platforms that I'm feeling pretty firm on this. If you say 'Eclipse', I'm going to traceroute you from a cell modem in my car, and bring a baseball bat with me. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Oliver Uvman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesus! I thought I was the only one wanting to program CL on the OM. I've had lots of interesting ideas on how to use a gesture-based interface for writing CL, which could work only thanks to the sparse syntax, and plan to make that some of the first things I program for my OM. Hooray! /Oliver Uvman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- ..Dan // Leinir.. http://www.leinir.dk/ Co- existence or no existence - Piet Hein ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OM IDE (was: Re: Common Lisp for OM (Was: Programming OM))
Latest one as of maybe a month ago. NB 6.1 is pretty fast now. What I don't like about eclipse isn't stuff that changes overnight. And again, I don't spend my time compensating for eclipse being stupid. I used to write plugins/compilers for eclipse, it's even worse on the inside. Feel free to use my stuff for an eclipse port! The NB stuff is (AFAIK, haven't started fiddling with it yet) all swing, which you can wrap in SWT and put on eclipse. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which eclipse version were you using? I think in the past, like 2y ago, it was buggier. I'd say it's pretty solid these days. And it's way faster. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lally Singh Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 1:19 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: OM IDE (was: Re: Common Lisp for OM (Was: Programming OM)) Eclipse has a faster widget toolkit, but it tends to be a lot buggier dumber about a lot of things. You end up spending a lot more time fiddling with it to work right than NB. The tradeoff w/NB is that it tends to do the right thing, but is slower. Definitely so on my mac, but the speed difference on Solaris isn't noticeable on my opteron sun box. Also, it comes with some stuff that you have to get separately (sometimes at cost, or with a annoyware freeware version) for eclipse. UML editing comes to mind. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's wrong with Eclipse? It's much more common for embedded IDE's isn't it? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lally Singh Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 12:08 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: OM IDE (was: Re: Common Lisp for OM (Was: Programming OM)) Nah, I'd been planning on getting haskell up for OM. They already have a basic ARM target for ghc, and there's already a haskell-GTK mapping. But, now that we're talking about development environments, who'd be interested in using an IDE for developing OM? I was thinking about putting together a Netbeans plugin to dev for it. I'm wondering: 1. anyone want to use such a thing? 2. anyone wanna help? I'll be using Mac OS X solaris personally (probably more of the latter), but if someone'd be up for testing it on Linux, I'd be happy to support that too. A nice little basis to create wizards for all kinds of OM applications, plugins, etc. sounds like good community open-source fun. I'd consider this my first big contribution to OM, so I'm happy to do it. Please, no religious wars on Java/NetBeans, etc. Feel free to use the work for your own desires after, but I've been through enough dev cycles on other platforms that I'm feeling pretty firm on this. If you say 'Eclipse', I'm going to traceroute you from a cell modem in my car, and bring a baseball bat with me. On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Oliver Uvman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesus! I thought I was the only one wanting to program CL on the OM. I've had lots of interesting ideas on how to use a gesture-based interface for writing CL, which could work only thanks to the sparse syntax, and plan to make that some of the first things I program for my OM. Hooray! /Oliver Uvman ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner and external Display
-1 While I completely understand the irritation with all these experiments and heavily detailed ideas, I'd rather have people thinking and loud than quiet and apathetic. If even a few of of them end up committing code, we're all the better for it. Maybe we can get a few people started on Vala. On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Ian Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seriously, If everyone put as much effort into development as they do into bitching and whining this phone would be able to cure cancer by now. +1 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: When will you update the Production Status, steve?
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 11:48 AM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm trying to clarify that now. Yeild is good there will not be another cycle. Test throughput, how long it takes to test the phone is being improved. One production starts we will just build continuously, The build process is very fast. The test on the back end, lets say to catch the 2% of failure is the gating item, but that can be parallelized somewhat, Then you have to figure the shipping. do I ship a lot per week, build two weeks and ship, etc. What is your dissertation on? Wonderful! My dissertation's on the scalability of massively multiplayer video games. I'm taking the Torque (www.garagegames.com) engine and making it scale to as many simulated users as I can handle. I can get access to the VT Supercomputer, so that should be at least 10k simulated users. That number really depends on how well I can tweak out the simulator (a full running copy of the game, with rendering turned off and an AI controlling the player). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lally Singh Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 7:57 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: Re: When will you update the Production Status, steve? Just to clarify, what kind of time range would be needed? A week (4 weeks?) for production, plus another week (4 weeks) for testing? If testing shows problems, possibly another 6 weeks for another cycle? I don't want some sort of indirect promise on the delivery date -- I know it's too fuzzy. Just some help interpreting the meaning of the update. Personally I'm already committed and don't mind having some more time of productivity on my dissertation before the sudden halt that will arrive when the phone arrives :-D On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 10:44 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Minor correction, After we complete the test on the Pre MP, if we hit the Yeild numbers required, we start MP on the 9th at the earliest!. So, I'd put the window at May 9 to may 16th. Just to be accurate. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 6:39 PM To: 'List for Openmoko community discussion' Subject: RE: When will you update the Production Status, steve? The last Pre MP is done and mass production is slated to start on may 9. Phones will start rolling off the lines, they will go through test, They will be shipped to distribution. When the Phones hit the dock and are ready to ship, I'll do a press release and announce to the list and the store will open. So you have 3 steps: build phone. test phone. ship phone. Then we take orders. I was very adamament about having phones in the disty ready to ship before I opened the web shop. Also, I need to update everybody on software. Sorry for the short response, but those are the facts as I have them -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sebastian Reichel Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 6:08 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: When will you update the Production Status, steve? Am Freitag, den 02.05.2008, 14:25 -0700 schrieb steve: Thread: RE: When begin sales the freerunner? I will update the production status over the weekend! Hi, the weekend is almost gone (actually it is already here in Germany, where it's 3:00 now), so where are the updates? :D greetings from Europe, Sebastian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
USB oscilloscope
Not my cup of tea, but maybe someone else on this list cares? http://www.hobbylab.us/default.aspx It's a usb Oscilliscope, $170. I sent an email asking about getting specs for a port. It'd make a cool little field tool for those who worry about such things. While I have the hardware people's attention, what uses does the debug board have? I figure it'll test pin connections, etc., but is there any use for it for those who don't plan to directly modify the board? I might add something onto the I2C bus later, but that's a separate device. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: When will you update the Production Status, steve?
Just to clarify, what kind of time range would be needed? A week (4 weeks?) for production, plus another week (4 weeks) for testing? If testing shows problems, possibly another 6 weeks for another cycle? I don't want some sort of indirect promise on the delivery date -- I know it's too fuzzy. Just some help interpreting the meaning of the update. Personally I'm already committed and don't mind having some more time of productivity on my dissertation before the sudden halt that will arrive when the phone arrives :-D On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 10:44 PM, steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Minor correction, After we complete the test on the Pre MP, if we hit the Yeild numbers required, we start MP on the 9th at the earliest!. So, I'd put the window at May 9 to may 16th. Just to be accurate. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of steve Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 6:39 PM To: 'List for Openmoko community discussion' Subject: RE: When will you update the Production Status, steve? The last Pre MP is done and mass production is slated to start on may 9. Phones will start rolling off the lines, they will go through test, They will be shipped to distribution. When the Phones hit the dock and are ready to ship, I'll do a press release and announce to the list and the store will open. So you have 3 steps: build phone. test phone. ship phone. Then we take orders. I was very adamament about having phones in the disty ready to ship before I opened the web shop. Also, I need to update everybody on software. Sorry for the short response, but those are the facts as I have them -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sebastian Reichel Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 6:08 PM To: List for Openmoko community discussion Subject: When will you update the Production Status, steve? Am Freitag, den 02.05.2008, 14:25 -0700 schrieb steve: Thread: RE: When begin sales the freerunner? I will update the production status over the weekend! Hi, the weekend is almost gone (actually it is already here in Germany, where it's 3:00 now), so where are the updates? :D greetings from Europe, Sebastian ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for stable, automated build process
into the status of the project. What are your issues? a) Want to have an always building distribution. b) Want to be able to add your package to the distribution process c) Want to enable users to help fixing issues d) What did I miss. My take on these: a) -The qtopia-x11-image should always built. I think opkg was the last thing we forget to set to a certain revision. - You know which versions got built and can fetch the sources and rebuilt without internet. b) - I'm against user submitted feeds as we have no control on the quality and we lack the possibility to rebuild packages - I think it is in the interest of the distro team to assist you in packaging your software. Maybe write distro-devel for a request of packaging? - With the qtopia-x11-image you should be able to easily build and package autotools based projects c) - We need someone to summarize important issues, set the right priorities, collect information. - I think this can be done within the community. - The next thing is to actually get the source and fix it. I work on this with the merging of poky's SDK capabilities and also considering debian source packages (work from the mamona guys at indt) d) - No idea this is my take on this... I think we have most of what you want, on some parts I agree with you (issue tracking), on the automation side I do not fully agree, there are better things to do which require less effort and have a bigger impact/success (e.g. a user telling which mtn revision of the OM metadata works...). z. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Request for stable, automated build process
Huh, we've had the exact opposite experience over here. The trick that's worked here is to recognize the top-level app is little more than a shell for the plugins. I download the source of the plugins when there's a problem, and ping the maven listserv. The documentation needs help, a *lot* of help, but the code is workable. Frankly, that level of work isn't any harder than debugging makefiles. In exchange, the benefits have been pretty solid. But, yeah, it's easy for people to have either experience. I just wanted to provide my own datapoint. In comparison to complex makefiles, I'm a lot happier on maven. On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 9:03 PM, Hugo Mills [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, May 03, 2008 at 08:21:27PM -0400, Lally Singh wrote: Just out of curiosity, would maven be completely out of the question? Please, for the love of all that's holy, no. I work with maven in my job. It's the most horrible misbegotten misdesigned piece of hideousness I've ever had the misfortune to work with. I'm not alone in that opinion, either -- pretty much everyone I know who's used it has the same opinion. I recently spent some time tracking down a build failure in our automated build system. It was eventually traceable to some component of maven -- still ostensibly the same version as the previous week -- changing under our feet in an incompatible way, so it decided to reject a configuration that had previously functioned correctly. This is not the only problem we've had with it. It has a track record of being awkward and/or broken in ways that are not obvious, and it is almost completely opaque when you come to try and debug them. Please, please, stick to make. Hugo. -- === Hugo Mills: [EMAIL PROTECTED] carfax.org.uk | darksatanic.net | lug.org.uk === PGP key: 515C238D from wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net or http://www.carfax.org.uk --- My karma has run over my dogma. --- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIHQtsIKyzvlFcI40RArezAKDTilX8eV6tsxwc8zY4kiBR+/4kEQCfXxNS /0EbQ+2wi9M/i/z6JiSYwFs= =CiYc -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Unofficial poll: Do you want 3G in the proposed successor, GTA03?
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a US resident, 3G is pretty useless to me. Mostly because it costs AT LEAST an additional $30 a month to utilize it. I'm also not sure it's available in my area. WiFi, on the other hand, is free when it's available (which is admittedly scarce in some areas). WiFi's useful for a lot of things. But, 3G may get cheaper in the states. When the 3G iPhone comes out, Apple may coerce ATT to provide cheap data for it. Perhaps within the existing $20 data plan. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Loosing your moko
On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 8:19 AM, Sean Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It sounds like these anti-theft measures are more likely to confuse the ordinary user. They sound quite ingenious, but are still not going to be an impenetrable barrier to theft - and probably not worth the effort. It'd make sense to make any such security system a user-installable package. That way they know what they're getting into. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Accelerometer brainstorming
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 6:45 AM, Gilles Casse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Lun 31 mars 2008 10:59, Kalle Happonen a écrit : Alexey Feldgendler wrote: Do you think it's possible to use traits of a person's walk for identification? Never heard about something like this. Interesting idea, if it turns out implementable. I remember seeing some research results about this a few years back. Using a phone with accelerometers they managed to identify different persons from their walk with about a 90% accuracy IIRC. So it seems to be completely feasible, but I doubt that it's trivial. also this research paper: Footstep identification from pressure signals using hidden markov models http://www.ee.oulu.fi/mvg/files/pdf/pdf_459.pdf You folks are freaking me out. Outside of tracking people, any other ideas for why you'd want this? -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wrist Computing
On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 5:47 AM, Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 30 March 2008 04:56:53 Lally Singh wrote: Thinking of something like: http://www.eurotech.com/EN/products.aspx?pg=Zypad%20WL%201000pp=Wearable%2 0Computerspc=411pid=260 I'd love a little wrist mount for an openmoko phone. It'd be a wonderful place to mount it in GPS mode when on a motorcycle. I don't know about you, but I would want the GPS to live in the middle in front of me, not on my wrist which is pretty much out of my normal field of view on a motorbike... I see what you mean, but for me it's not something I'd want to tempt myself to look at while the bike's in motion. A quick glance when pulled over or when traffic has stopped is all I'm willing to do. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Wrist Computing
Thinking of something like: http://www.eurotech.com/EN/products.aspx?pg=Zypad%20WL%201000pp=Wearable%20Computerspc=411pid=260 I'd love a little wrist mount for an openmoko phone. It'd be a wonderful place to mount it in GPS mode when on a motorcycle. Even otherwise, a great way to quickly look something up. Of course, I'd take it out of the mount to answer the phone :-D Any thoughts? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wrist Computing
thanks On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 12:05 AM, JW [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any thoughts? watch less star trek ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko strives for openness
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Andy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Somebody in the thread at some point said: 2. Actually, is there any hope of getting 3d acceleration out of the graphics chip, or is that too bogged down with NDA-ness? Are we stuck porting Mesa3D? Chance, sure, but the NDA situation is pretty bad it turns out for the Glamo. It's a shame! Poor (Glamo) fools are shooting themselves in the foot on this one. Generally speaking USB of one kind or another will very likely be around in one form or another... it will be a much better solution to make such a device a USB peripheral since you don't have to open the case, can unplug to revert to just being a phone, you get power provided from the phone, can use on other hosts, etc. And at some point it will very likely be 480Mbps (GTA02 is 12Mbps) DMA'd in and out, so bandwidth won't be an issue. I really recommend this path for any non-casual hacking. USB2 would be fast, but AFAIK it tends to suck away all your CPU. Something a little smarter, like firewire? Promiscuous mode? I would prefer full packet injection ;) see those wep networks crumble. Full (radiotap) injection is useful for non-evil things too, the problem with Monitor mode and the injection is the same: the closed firmware doesn't offer it at the moment, and the firmware alone handles the MAC for the current WLAN device. My own prefs aside, this one's a biggie. If OM's looking at potentially changing chips down the road, something a lot more hackable here would be wonderful. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko strives for openness
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Andy Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 No the host controllers for 12Mbps and 480Mbps USB -- and firewire the same -- are all set up around DMA, so bulk transport isn't so expensive in CPU for any of them. As the bandwidth goes up it will start to hurt memory bandwidth and CPU in terms of the amount of descriptors flying about but not before a good few MBytes/sec I would guess. I'm sold. One (more?) vote for a USB2 port in later generations of OM? Well it has AP scan, WEP and WPA which are truly the biggies, in comparison Monitor mode and injection are a bit specialized (despite I would love them too). Changing is possible but it would need a proven Linux driver and enough advantage to offset the upset of changing, testing, etc. I don't see being able to say about Monitor mode and injection is enough advantage to convince most folks about that. These annoying fullmac firmware-is-boss type devices have a lower power requirement that can't be ignored despite it means the product is defined by the closed firmware in them. Lower power is a decent counterrequirement to promiscuity and injection. OTOH, we've got a bit of a hacker bias on this group of developers. If OM later sees a comparable or nearly comparable device that has those features, perhaps a poll could be run to get an idea of what people would want? You know there has been a run of mails I am writing lately and the thread is the same all over, closed stuff is making the trouble. If the firmware was open, we could consider to add exactly what we wanted and then we would be nicely and willingly locked into that product, and our improvements are available to other customers. But the vendor isn't quite ready to add value to their products like that. *sigh* It's a shame. It's too bad we can't get the openness we're seeing out of Sun for their opensparc project :-) ... unless OM wants to go sparc anytime soon :-P -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
Definite cultural problem within the open source/free software community. People use it for both definitions of 'free', and complain heavily over everything that isn't free (in $$). Small companies need to account for the risks they're taking for the community in their margins, otherwise they starve and fail -- notice the # of failed linux companies in the last 10 years? JWZ once said, linux is only free if your time is worth nothing. With modern distros, that's no longer the case -- you get a nice desktop system with less hassle than most windows users. But, the misconception between money, labor, and risk continues on in the community. In the oft-repeated spirit of the open source community, if you don't like how someone else is doing it, do it yourself. Hmm, just thinking out loud here. Would it be possible to distribute OM (Om now?) phones through the community? Single LUGs get together and order a batch (maybe resell as a fundraiser), with the help of some 'become-a-distributor-quick' system? I don't know how complicated it is in the EU to sell imported goods (I'm in the states, this sort of stuff is one of the few last benefits), is it possible to make it easy for a small group (or just 1 person with a few hundred euro) to make themselves a distributor? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
[snipping to keep it short] [ for everyone who's tired of reading these -- sorry. the community's easily as (actually, more) important than the hardware product itself. debates like this are as important (imho) as those debating how much RAM the device has or what cell frequencies should be enabled. ] I abbreviate here for brevity, not to ignore any points you've mentioned. On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps you allude to this, and if so, I agree. If not, then I ask you to tak a step back and recognize the varied and diverse reasons that people value Free Software. I agree. The self-motivated, ready-to-go, already-commited ones aren't the ones I worry about. It's everyone else. Two groups come to mind: 1. The beginners who would be contributors. 2. The coders who are looking for a project to work on. A honey-vs-vinegar approach would help in both areas. The first day I installed Debian GNU/Linux I was told Read the fucking manual. Back then, they weren't nice enough to abreviate it for me. :) Responding to such a request like this: RTFM: url of documentation The old RTFM comment goes back to the older unix days, when you had good printed documentation, but no google. It's fair to assume that people would look for documentation before asking... They already searched plenty to find the mailing list! Every person told RTFM is a person being told to be responsible for themselves. Where you see it inspiring a developer to avoid I project, I see it inspiring a hacker to start hacking. People still choose which projects to spend their time on, as we're really competing with other projects for contributors. It helps not to treat them as spoiled, lazy children. Again, I don't disagree with you here on principal, but I do question the logic being asserted - OpenMoko is the ONLY platform advocating use freedom and control so all of the evidence we have on one side or the other is questionable at best. Others have pushed conceptual products (in this case, freedom) vs traditional functionality before. E.g. OpenBSD's cryptographic freedom (hence) and security as a cultural decision. As they don't bring (initially) any new functionality to the table at start, we *have* to recruit heavily to build a community. The ones who'd come in for selfish reasons don't see anything for them until someone else has made the system useful. The few exceptions are folks who need specific, easy-to-implement features easily built atop the existing, raw, openmoko stack. IMHO, not too many by itself. It's like a compound interest equation for a savings account. The initial amount put in is how many people believed in the original ideals of the project (remember the account starts at zero, so we only have ideals to start with). What they put in builds interest --- the results of their work interests more people. Those people's contributions (even if it's just evangelizing) adds onto the balance in the account --- building interest themselves. The cycle continues forward. Maybe that metaphor made more sense in my head than out loud. But, everyone's got their buy-in point. The amount of work required to make the device useful/interesting for them. More work than that, and they're not interested. Any coder will tell you that they spend as much time going through documentation and other people's source as they do writing your own. That's where the community comes in: if it's easy to get help, the amount of work spent looking up documentation/help reduces, and we have more developers who were just waiting for the project to hit their buy-in point. Open source projects charge a price in hours worked, not dollars. Never pretend that the former isn't easily worth as much as the latter. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Price of the Freerunner published?
On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Steven ** [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was reading Planet OpenMoko and found the following at http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2008/03/18/from-switzerland-to-brazil/ : The price range for the Neo FreeRunner has been published, it's going to be less than 400 USD — which is quite a substantial improvement over the estimated 650 that was published last year. Was the price range really published? Where is it? Equally important -- is that the stock unit price or the dev kit? The latter would be fantastic, but I fear it's just the former. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Openmoko strives for openness
The openness is much appreciated!! The hack value of this phone is really mind-boggling. IMHO It could become to this generation's young hackers what the old Apple IIs and Commodores were to my generation. As for the 6400 vs the 2443, is there any reason to prefer the 2443? The 6400 seems better in every way. As for other ideas, in sorted order of perceived probability: 1. First, some sort of mounting holes near the USB (like the PSP)? Or another USB port on the back (with mount holes), to allow things to be attached behind the phone? I'm in the Virtual Reality group here, and a phone with GPS, accelerometers, and 3D is *very* interesting. With a more specific positioning system (e.g. like the wiimote's IR) attached, it'd be really useful in an immersive CAVE (small room with projectors on 4-6 sides) or a gigapixel (25-50 LCDs arranged into one giant display) system. 2. Actually, is there any hope of getting 3d acceleration out of the graphics chip, or is that too bogged down with NDA-ness? Are we stuck porting Mesa3D? 3. Also, a wifi adapter that does promiscuous mode? A few sysadmins would love to run wireshark on it, to diagnose what's going on with their network. 4. Personally, I'd love some sort of high-speed connector, so I could connect something like an FPGA to it. Maybe access to the GPIO off the processor? I don't expect it to be a high priority, but I have to ask :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Well Said! Could we just put up a paragraph like that (with a date!) on a page in the wiki? Like http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Status ? That's all I'm asking for. Somewhere I can go to, to see how the openmoko hardware's doing. A Blog/RSS would be best, but the wiki'd be fine. On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just throwing my $.02 out there, but your first paragraph is exactly the type of paragraph that I personally feel is what the community is wanting/expecting from Michael in his community updates. Furthermore, *if* they do find a showstopper bug, knowing that too would be nice as well. I honestly think that most of the frustration centers around the fact that there is a decent amount of visibility (and discussion) around the software and its maturity, but there is (especially in comparison) almost zero visibility into the hardware. I'm not necessarily faulting FIC for that lack of visibility behind closed doors as most companies wouldn't do that either. I'm just merely pointing out the obvious contrast and why it is causing frustration. -Jonathon -Original Message- From: joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org To: Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: List for OpenMoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!?? Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 05:06:25 +0100 The hw-designers hope they hold the golden master in their hands with version A6 currently. Seems there are no showstoppers been found so far. Power management is at a reasonable some days to some weeks in standby with GSM. Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Over here we're working as hard as we can to get FreeRunner out of the factory. Things are moving nicely now. Pilot runs are in a few days from now. Note he didn't say working hard to find the bugs. To me it sounds like it's all about ramping up the factory. So i guess you *will* see some timeline or at least an update to be published in the next weeks, no more need for a _monthly_ update blog. cheers jOERG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
OM's unusual in the sense that they're asking us to do three things: 1. Invest $400-600 in them. 2. Use their device in such a personal way -- a cell phone is as much a part of my daily setup as my shoes or wrist watch. 3. Develop on it, in our usually too-rare spare time, unpaid. In exchange, they promise openness. And so far, where the product's concerned, I think they've held that part of the bargain. But, they've been really failing at expectations management. We are paying in 3 big ways here, so we are still customers. For the same reason why any other customer gets real tired of hearing It'll be done any time now, it's tiring to hear it from OM. No open-source project has ever worked well by treating its users as ungrateful leeches. Which is what I'm hearing from some of this community -- it's a great way to poison the well and *ruin* it for everyone. When someone says this should get fixed the *last* response to give is fix it yourself. That's how you lose users, who could have become contributors. It's how you *kill* open source projects. As they're unfunded, the only capital an open source project has its users. The criticism is valuable in and of itself. IMHO the best response for it is please file a bug report. They can do that, and they're getting involved in the community. And later, someone else who wants to contribute has a nice place to look for what to do. Two birds, one stone. As for Openmoko, please respect what we're putting into this venture. Without us, OM's just a raw piece of hardware with a marginal software stack, more expensive and less functional (in usable terms) than your off-the-shelf iPhone. The community is 90% of the value of your product, remember to spend some time working on it!! If you're not sure how, read up on some Guy Kawasaki. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh sheesh. Why are you trying so hard to poison this project? Read the rest of the response. I said the proper response is please file a bug report. Or shove it on a wishlist. Someone spent time trying to contribute to the project with their own ideas, and the last thing you want to do is throw it back in their face. At minimum, you'll throw away a user, at worst, you've lost a significant potential contributor. The wish list can be 10 gigabytes long, that's fine. As long as the user's been brought a little into the fold, and suddenly we have a bunch of nice little places for new developers to join in the project. A wish list (or bug report list) and a getting started with developing for project X is how you get people in. Open source projects are even more dependent on marketing in their day-to-day activities than regular commercial endeavors. Nobody's (usually) getting paid, nobody's *got* to do the work. All you have is making each other happy working together. Yup, responding to my own post. I've got more to say on this. This'll be it for a while, I want to see how this community's going to go without me dragging it kicking screaming. Growing up in a bunch of open-source projects, a developer has to decide which ones to work with. You can't work on every open source project you use daily -- there are literally hundreds we touch as we go. Instead, we pick and choose. How? Two criteria: 1. The project itself. 2. The community. If the community's really friendly and invites you in, you're more likely to contribute. If they reply to your inquries with a bunch of RTFM, Write it yourself, or (what the rest really are saying) f*ck off, then you're not going to go near them. The build it and they will come mentality *DOES*NOT*WORK*. I'll remind you it came from a Kevin Costner movie, which really proves my point. You have to fight for every user. The nice part is, you only have to be nice and helpful... Things good leaders are anyway. If I get a few more of these well-poisoning messages I'm out -- my efforts here would be wasted as the community would never go anywhere. If people step up and actually try to build a real community, I'm in. I think there are more than a few others who feel the same way. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko and accessories design
These sound like fun! Is there any way to get a higher-bandwidth connection out of the OM than USB? Say if we wanted to double-output the video signal or whatever. On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Michael Shiloh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's really very simple. Someone hack one together, take pictures, and describe it on a wiki page. As Andy says, once we chickens find our heads we can consider whether to turn these into products or not. Michael Andy Green wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: That is a nice idea, would like to have an accessory like that to make my neo into a camera, when I need it... It is a nice idea. The Y cable is a nice idea too. But (it's just my personal take) the problem with loading up any new things on this product right now is - we didn't sell any yet :-) - everyone is running around in headless chicken mode trying to finalize production, their brains are not configured for new tasks right now I think the way forward is to prototype these ideas on a GTA02 and document it and what it does, where it is useful, then after the current storm dies down it is accessible to explain what the idea is to the people that can yea or nay it. For these external USB accessories, it is exactly the kind of thing users can hack on, including the kernel side if needed (although USB device support in Linux can already be adequate for many tasks). If a couple of folks did it and are going on about how much it rocked and to show what they achieved this speaks very loudly. I started prototyping the Y cable, but of course the wiring for a mini USB cable does not include ID normally :-/ Later I will edit the cable of one of the chargers I have here to do it that way. Really I think this kind of user-driven Wah! We could do THIS!!! is great and it is exactly the idea of the product, but unlike a closed product we really CAN do it without petitioning the company, and within reason I'm pretty sure supporting this kind of hacking endeavour from my side is part of my job description. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH2PRVOjLpvpq7dMoRAv2UAJkBwbnmzZjjs8H8kWfBvZaLFtC/2wCeJRgY hxMic6U/rxMSLPXgmCvuznk= =AO8g -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
A progress blog would be nice. I don't think much more than what you normally find in the Wiki and kernel mailing list would be needed. Just a single place to find out what's going on. On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Marco Trevisan (Treviño) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pietro m0nt0 Montorfano ha scritto: 1) The Freerunner IS free, there are only some firmware things that aren't open and that never will be open but they are only firmware, even your PC run something which is not open source (BIOS, graphic card firmware, cdrom firmware, every kind of firmware you got is generally closed.) I do agree with this... Btw imho all the words written in this thread are due to only one thing: the lack of communication by the FIC developers (the hardware ones first of all, but also the software ones). I think they mostly talk with their code, but the most part of the community doesn't really know what they're doing and what is really happening in Taiwan. That's why this thread started! So, imho not to loose credibility FIC/Openmoko should have a better relationship with its followers relasing more informations both about the project status and about the future plans. Don't you agree? -- Treviño's World - Life and Linux http://www.3v1n0.net/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 10:06 PM, Richard Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All the info is there, you just have to subscribe to the other mailinglists, see: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ and also the feeds section: http://planet.openmoko.org/ I think if you have time to make a weekly overview of all that info, and blog it somewhere, you would be providing what you are asking for... I'd read it... Yeah I've scanned planet.openmoko.org, but the signal/noise ratio for what I want isn't very good. I'd really just want a predicted ship date. If it changes, fine, but let me know. For how open the product is, the development phase is (unintentionally) pretty shrouded. I agree the data's there, but it's scattered all over the place in the wiki. As for doing the grunt work in providing that 5-10 lines a month of blog data... It's 10x harder on the outside to do it as from the inside, and frankly I've got a dissertation to worry about. I don't think many in the community want to play data miner to keep the rest of the community up-to-date. It also sounds like some of the community's losing their patience with this. I'm second-guessing a purchase myself. I went through a long-wait-for-false-hope phase with PalmOS 6, and am not in the mood for another one. If they don't want to dedicate someone to writing a paragraph a month, just CC a -progress blog when you've got something progress-relevant to say. A CC isn't too hard, is it? We don't all have hours to dig through mailing lists and the wiki to get some basic progress data. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: FreeRunner delayed a further 6 months?!?!??
Ugh. Outside of chip firmware, what don't we have? Also, what's the standard for consumer-level devices? I've seen some terrible, terrible mobile Windows devices. These devices have a day and a half of battery life, crash about that often, and have little more than an address book, weak calendar, and a terrible web browser. What's the Openmoko software stack lacking, other than a very-needed color scheme change tool? The only thing that I don't like about the new Neo is the lack of promiscuous mode in the wifi card. As for delays, sure. But the prize still goes to PalmOS 6 devices. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GSoC 2008: Call for ideas
For middleware, it looks like all that's really needed is an OM version of Cocoa's NSNotificationCenter. IMHO I think it's a great place to start -- just a filtered event channel with a C-callable API for publishing/listening for events. I'd prefer a design that's simple reliable for small data packets over one that's overdesigned for the 1% of the time when you want to transfer bulk data. If I may suggest a starting point, something readable like XML would be preferable over some binary representation of data. That way, later it could be extended to interact with web services. Also a *lot* easier to debug, and plenty of small/simple and large/complex libraries available to parse it. With that said, the application API should have two layers: an XML-based I/O layer that does all the low-level work, and a string-based convenience library that does most jobs an app would want, without having to make them muck around with the XML format unless they had to get fancy. It'll also help standardize the formats of the events easier -- as most would just use the facilities of the higher-level API. Also, remember to standardize common event names with #defines in some header files. It'd be nice to avoid spelling-related bugs. The highest-level api would be something this simple: event_listen ( POWER_MANAGER, POWER_LOW, handle_power_low ); event_listen would call two APIs: Document *req = build_standard_request (POWER_MANAGER, POWER_LOW); listen_event ( req, handle_power_low ) (Where Document is just a simple DOM tree) If someone wanted to put together a more complex event than build_standard_request does, they could build it themselves and send it over. Or, event_listen could just be equivalent to these APIs, but really just do an sprintf() and send the result over the wire itself. As long as both options are available to the developer, I'm happy. The interface is what matters to me -- the implementation is a lot easier to change once apps are built atop of it. It looks like another convenience API to emit a signal when an event occurs would also be useful. The simplest method for doing so would be to pass a signal-emitting function into event_listen. As for a test app, a pair of programs that talk through the middleware would be useful. Especially if they used different message types and handled them differently, so that the client-side API is given a fair shake. Also, one as a daemon, and one as a graphical app. Should get the APIs pretty well vetted. On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 7:00 AM, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi folks, OpenMoko Inc. will apply for Google SoC 2008. For a successfull application, we need to have a comprehensive list of ideas. A first scratch at that is @ http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Summer_of_Code_2008 -- please help us adding to that. Some rough guidelines: * Please add only ideas that can be realized within the time constraints of google SoC. * Please add only ideas that end up in a software deliverable, e.g. an application or a library. * As OM lacks in middleware, please prefer middleware projects before application level projects. However, as every part of middleware should be application driven, the middleware deliverables should always include a demo application. I want to compile the mentoring application on Tuesday, 11th -- please make sure all your great ideas are in by then. Cheers, Mickey. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GSoC 2008: Call for ideas
Cool, can we use it directly or need a port? On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Joachim Steiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lally Singh wrote: For middleware, it looks like all that's really needed is an OM version of Cocoa's NSNotificationCenter. IMHO I think it's a great place to start -- just a filtered event channel with a C-callable API for publishing/listening for events. I'd prefer a design that's simple reliable for small data packets over one that's overdesigned for the 1% of the time when you want to transfer bulk data. thats there already. its called d-bus and used by lots of gtk/gnome/glib apps already please take a look at http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/dbus thanks for your suggestion anyways kind regards -- Joachim Steiger developer relations/support -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Google Summer of Code
Hmm, Google will pay $500 to the mentor. That'd cover the hardware if OpenMoko wanted to use it for that purpose instead. Although, is google gonna be happy supporting an android competitor? :-P On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 1:56 PM, Oliver Uvman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As you all probably know, the summer of code 2008 has been announced, and now is the time for organisations to start readying their applications. Will OpenMoko try to grab a few of us want-to-get-into-OSS students for 3 months of paid summer coding? Please say yes. Pretty please? As a student I already have my eyes on a few organisations that I know will try to become mentoring orgs, but if OpenMoko also got onto the list I would be extremely happy to try to become one of your crazed code monkeys. So what say you? Regards, Oliver U ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Never getting GPS lock
From: http://blogs.msdn.com/coding4fun/archive/2006/10/31/912287.aspx $GPGSV,2,1,08,01,40,083,46,02,17,308,41,12,07,344,39,14,22,228,45*75 Where: GSV Satellites in view 2Number of sentences for full data 1sentence 1 of 2 08 Number of satellites in view 01 Satellite PRN number 40 Elevation, degrees 083 Azimuth, degrees 46 SNR - higher is better for up to 4 satellites per sentence *75 the checksum data, always begins with * Looks like you're only seeing 1 satellite. Are you in a city or somewhere else where you'd have a lot of obstructions? You need line-of-sight with 4 (preferably more) to get a lock. On Sun, Feb 24, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi My gta01 never gets gps lock, i've had it outside for over 15min on multiple occasions over the past few months with no luck. I followed the instructions here http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-November/011916.html to get gllin installed and i do get the $GPxxx info, it just never locks. (Always A1). I get the date on the $GPRMC line which i've been told means the gps receiver has found at least one satellite. I've tried it on different kernel/rootfs images and i get the same thing. Does anybody else have this problem? GPS Output --- $GPRMC,005141.53,V,,,250208,,,N*77 $GPGSV,1,1,01,19,,,31*72 $GPGSA,A,1,1911.2,5.0,10.0*3E $GPRMC,005142.53,V,,,250208,,,N*74 $GPGSA,A,1,1911.2,5.0,10.0*3E $GPRMC,005143.56,V,,,250208,,,N*70 $GPGSA,A,1,1911.2,5.0,10.0*3E $GPGGA,005145.58,00,00,5.0,,M,0.179099,M,0.07 $GPGSV,1,1,01,19,,,30*73 $PGLOR,IGR,81.2,7,71389,0,1*0D $GPRMC,005146.52,V,,,250208,,,N*71 $GPGSA,A,1,1911.2,5.0,10.0*3E $GPRMC,005147.56,V,,,250208,,,N*74 $GPGSA,A,1,1911.2,5.0,10.0*3E $GPGGA,005149.48,00,00,5.0,,M,0.179099,M,0.0A $GPGSV,1,1,01,19,,,32*71 $GPGGA,005150.52,00,00,5.0,,M,0.179099,M,0.09 $GPRMC,005150.52,V,,,250208,,,N*76 $GPGSV,1,1,01,19,,,31*72 $GPGSA,A,1,1911.2,5.0,10.0*3E $GPGGA,005152.54,00,00,5.0,,M,0.179099,M,0.0D --- Thanks Ben. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: proprietary firmware
On Feb 8, 2008 3:51 PM, enaut [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christopher Earl schrieb: I think he had the right intentions about this idea, however it would require vast CPU resources or a coprocessor dedicated to firware/driver layer managment. This is unlikley to happen, However trying to unlock the virtual lips of companies would be a huge step forward. Not to play devils advocate but if the firmware was loaded into RAM at boot a simple RAM dump would allow reverse engineering of the data, and thus the device,So im OK with that. Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/08/08 10:08 AM On Friday 08 February 2008 08:46, Lally Singh wrote: On Feb 7, 2008 8:32 PM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He suggested we treat any chipset with proprietary firmware as a black- box, a circuit. He suggested we ignore the firmware inside. If the firmware is buggy and the vendor needs the ability to update the firmware, we instead ask the vendor to reduce the firmware to the bare minimum, so that it can be very simple and bug free, and move the rest of the logic into the GPL'ed driver running on the main CPU. This way we completely avoid the issue of distributing proprietary firmware updates and binary firmware updaters with restrictive licensing that load only cryptographically signed firmware. While I see the benefits here, it seems that we're sacrificing CPU time, power usage, and lowered utilization of other devices on the phone to get over a license issue -- a technical resolution to a legal problem. I have to agree here. This is a low powered (CPU) device that contains chips designed to perform specific tasks. Why on earth would anyone think that making the cpu handle those tasks be a good idea? Apple can manage to allow their users to update the baseband on the iPhone so why can't FIC on the neo? Seriously, I want a phone that works properly more than I want one that dies during a call because the cpu is maxed out doing stuff that the chips in the same device should be doing.. Rome wasn't built in a day and you're not going to change manufacturers overnight either. In the meantime we have to be flexible. Mr Stallman appears to live in a land where every device has infinite resources - some would say it's called 'LaLa' Andy I like the idea of having total control over my electronic devices - especially if they are able to collect everything about my life like a mobile phone. Thats why I'm currently living without any mobil. If I am able to look into what runs on my device, I can trust that stuff. so I'm one of those guys saying doing everything open source is way better than gaining a little cpu-speed. and by the way I don't think that the cpu-speed is too limited on that device. usually cpus don't have to do anything. and a driver doesnt need too much. This smal gap could be closed esysly by optimizing things for the hardware. regards enaut 'a little cpu-speed' is an assumption. The more open these chips are, the more software's running on the CPU, the more CPU speed they'll take. 400MHz is really, *really* easy to use up. Considering how much stuff the other ICs do by themselves, we can heavily load the CPU pretty easily. Also, we can lose phone reliability, as the scheduling of periodic tasks could be delayed by other things (do we even have a hard real-time scheduler here?). IMHO it's a giant waste of CPU battery power -- the other chips will still be running, but now we're using the CPU more. For what? I don't think the GSM chip does anything terribly interesting. Wifi's not much better, and the GPS is probably the simplest. I'm sure others want to find that out themselves through their own hacking. But I don't want to fill up my CPU with garbage the other dedicated chips should be doing. If openmoko decides to go through with this firmware opening, please give us a way to use the regular firmware, too. I have plans for that CPU. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: proprietary firmware
On Feb 9, 2008 4:11 PM, Jeremiah Flerchinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On another note, access to low level GPS functions could be fairly interesting. Imagine gathering data from a local weather station and using it to better calculate atmospheric effects and improve accuracy. I used to hack gps receivers for a company that worked on ionospheric/atmospheric modeling. You can usually get the raw data you want (e.g. ephemeris frames) through a published binary protocol. I'd look it up right now, but the manufacturer's website only has it in windows help file format. Ew. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: proprietary firmware
On Feb 7, 2008 8:32 PM, Wolfgang Spraul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He suggested we treat any chipset with proprietary firmware as a black- box, a circuit. He suggested we ignore the firmware inside. If the firmware is buggy and the vendor needs the ability to update the firmware, we instead ask the vendor to reduce the firmware to the bare minimum, so that it can be very simple and bug free, and move the rest of the logic into the GPL'ed driver running on the main CPU. This way we completely avoid the issue of distributing proprietary firmware updates and binary firmware updaters with restrictive licensing that load only cryptographically signed firmware. While I see the benefits here, it seems that we're sacrificing CPU time, power usage, and lowered utilization of other devices on the phone to get over a license issue -- a technical resolution to a legal problem. Before jumping the gun on them, perhaps a more in-depth discussion (or at least a poll) into which ones we move into a cpu-run GPL driver vs running on a different chip we have to use as is? Maybe we can reach a consensus on which of these it really matters. I'm not sure how many of us would really care about sacrificing CPU for things we may not care about hacking. IMHO, if I could have it both ways, an option of loading a cryptographically signed black-box firmware onto the chip vs a minimal firmware+gpl driver would be nice. Give us both files and let us decide as we go. That'd be the dream situation. Second would be doing a vote to see which one of these we'd actually care about. e.g. I donno if many here would like to push a GPS correlator onto the CPU if we could get ephemeris from the regular firmware when we wanted. OTOH, GSM hacking would be fun, but I donno how much is legal :-( -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Pocket Supercomputing?
On Jan 31, 2008 5:31 PM, joerg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Do 31. Januar 2008 schrieb Shawn Rutledge: [...] My goal is to have applications written in arbitrary languages, running on app servers, using a terse UI meta-language *) to transfer the user-interaction parts of the apps to the thin client (more or less, depending on the processing power/bandwidth tradeoffs on the client side). *) So it seems you're talking about X. Don't you? (Well terse is relative) something like [EMAIL PROTECTED] ssh -X -l itsME myserver.dyndns.org konqueror Eh, these days it's probably better off being AJAX based. X widget sets haven't been designed for good use over slower network links in ages. May as well take advantage of web standards, and we can likely avoid having to write/invent anything specifically for the neo. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA01 Modified Handset
Whoops, I meant RAM (128 mb on the current unit). Yeah, I was afraid it was just the two. At least t-mob's been good to me in the past. On Jan 30, 2008 10:48 PM, Christopher Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Upgrading the Memory is not a problem, just pop in a bigger microSD upgrading the NAND would be totaly different and not serve much of a purpose, you can use the ipkg that lets you install apps directly on the SD and link the libs and stuff, there is a wiki that will help you do this. about the provider, i guess it depends on what features you want, however, there are not many GSM providers in the states, in my area I only have T-mobile and ATT Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/30/08 10:12 PM Any recommendations on sim vendors in the states for use with these phones? I'd like something that'd auto-bill me like a regular phone plan, without getting ripped off on rates/data/etc. Well, more ripped off than I am right now. A man's gotta have standards. On a completely different random topic, any ideas how hard it'd be to upgrade the memory on these things? Say a gig? On Jan 30, 2008 9:11 AM, Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's great. I really hope those handsets are available at the same time as the 900 band phones. On Jan 28, 2008 8:03 PM, Christopher Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok everone, I got the Handset today and GSM 850 WORKS! Audio sounds good and Test call was a success. I will be sending the phone off to its next stop soon. Thanks to Michael Shiloh for arranging the test and i hope this leads to good things for the 850Mhz band ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GTA01 Modified Handset
Oh, the 128 is onboard storage. What *is* the onboard CPU RAM on this thing? Is it just what's built onboard the CPU? On Jan 30, 2008 11:27 PM, Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whoops, I meant RAM (128 mb on the current unit). Yeah, I was afraid it was just the two. At least t-mob's been good to me in the past. On Jan 30, 2008 10:48 PM, Christopher Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Upgrading the Memory is not a problem, just pop in a bigger microSD upgrading the NAND would be totaly different and not serve much of a purpose, you can use the ipkg that lets you install apps directly on the SD and link the libs and stuff, there is a wiki that will help you do this. about the provider, i guess it depends on what features you want, however, there are not many GSM providers in the states, in my area I only have T-mobile and ATT Lally Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/30/08 10:12 PM Any recommendations on sim vendors in the states for use with these phones? I'd like something that'd auto-bill me like a regular phone plan, without getting ripped off on rates/data/etc. Well, more ripped off than I am right now. A man's gotta have standards. On a completely different random topic, any ideas how hard it'd be to upgrade the memory on these things? Say a gig? On Jan 30, 2008 9:11 AM, Tim Shannon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's great. I really hope those handsets are available at the same time as the 900 band phones. On Jan 28, 2008 8:03 PM, Christopher Earl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok everone, I got the Handset today and GSM 850 WORKS! Audio sounds good and Test call was a success. I will be sending the phone off to its next stop soon. Thanks to Michael Shiloh for arranging the test and i hope this leads to good things for the 850Mhz band ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
