Re: [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com writes: Hi, we have developed a prototype for a 80 button QWERTY keyboard PCB that could eventually be connected/integrated into the GTA04. It should fit into a specially designed battery cover so that you can easily stow it away if not needed. Such battery covers could be produced individually through 3D printing solving the issue of manageing and stocking 20 different key layouts. This seems really nice! I added myself to the wishlist. Is the back cover keyboard 3D model available? I have a 3D printer currently being shipped to me and I would like to try to print the cover when the printer arrives. But watch yourself how we think it can look like: http://youtu.be/WM94%5fR5eKcc There is also a new video showing a comparison with some other keyboards: http://youtu.be/wGASnE1zGh4 Pleas tell us if you like this idea and what you would like to pay for such an extension unit through the Wishlist function of our shop: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3AKeyboard Two issues are still to be developed: a) how to reliably connect it to the GTA04 PCB (soldering copper wires or a FFCs is a little difficult so it should have a tiny, flexible but robust B2B cable). Maybe, we can use a micro-USB socket or similar (we need to connect 6 wires). This may also need a redesign of the GTA04 board (for a nice plug) b) design a 3D printable case with key-caps that is robust enough If you want to support us for developing this idea, please give us a kickstart donation. Nikolaus PS: the keyboard driver for the TCA8418 is already part of Linux 3.3 - and has been backported to the 2.6.32-kernel. This has been tested to work on a BeagleBoard XM. http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=commit;h=f19d5c430458bbce8955bc9e04dd161f6a80347d It just needs platform data in the board file: http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=blobdiff;f=arch/arm/mach-omap2/board-omap3gta04.c;h=8a7e4b0803920f635e7101bfbd5a60b6b84b1107;hp=3e49efef2de0b42cd419a46a9cd45448fd04a44c;hb=4b2de3db742abce9212c1af2cc576e2a3a64b0d9;hpb=1d7c6b5f043661621ec374d96c3c4a4454f9bb7b -- Joakim Verona ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
On Tue, 2012-05-01 at 18:06 +0200, Dr.H.NikolausS wrote:
we have developed a prototype for a 80 button QWERTY keyboard PCB
that could eventually be connected/integrated into the GTA04
This is some good work and the PCB looks like it will be useful.
However, I think it may be premature to start designing keyboard
circuits.
I think the really important issue in developing a hardware keyboard is
in the physical design; the arrangement of keys, how the shape of keys
effects ease of typing, how the keyboard is integrated into the case,
etc. In order to develop case designs that include a keyboard, we must
first have designs for cases without a keyboard :-)
At present, we do not have this. As I understand it, Slyon's cases do
not fit together properly and so we cannot build a complete GTA04 case
from them yet (has this changed?) There are also no case component kits
available.
I think it would be more advantageous to spend time dealing with these
basic problems. That way, we will have a solid base from which to build
more advanced designs, including designs that incorporate a keyboard.
Also, I believe we should not limit ourselves to the existing case
shape. I will say more about that in a separate email to the GTA04
list.
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
Diaspora: r...@pod.settrans.net
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
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Re: [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
Hi Bob,
Am 02.05.2012 um 10:30 schrieb Bob Ham:
On Tue, 2012-05-01 at 18:06 +0200, Dr.H.NikolausS wrote:
we have developed a prototype for a 80 button QWERTY keyboard PCB
that could eventually be connected/integrated into the GTA04
This is some good work and the PCB looks like it will be useful.
However, I think it may be premature to start designing keyboard
circuits.
Well, the circuit itself was already part of the GTA04 schematics so it
was not too difficult to extract that into an external PCB. And once designed
it is easy to move the buttons a little around before it goes into mass
production. So that it fits the case.
I think the really important issue in developing a hardware keyboard is
in the physical design; the arrangement of keys, how the shape of keys
The arrangement of keys is more or less standardized, so there isn't
much room for experimentation.
effects ease of typing, how the keyboard is integrated into the case,
etc. In order to develop case designs that include a keyboard, we must
Yes, shape effects ease of typing. But also do the mechanical properties of
the electric contacts. I.e. what their contact force is. You can only test that
with having the electronics ready (at least in a prototype status).
first have designs for cases without a keyboard :-)
Well, but what do you do if you design a keyboard where the mechanical
switches are not available? Part of the experiment was to test how well
these Panasonic things work, how easily they can be soldered, what they
impose as the minimum distance between buttons.
I.e. you can't do one without the other. And have to start somewhere...
And, the shape of the keycaps can be changed and optimized. That is the
good thing with 3D printing.
At present, we do not have this. As I understand it, Slyon's cases do
not fit together properly and so we cannot build a complete GTA04 case
from them yet (has this changed?) There are also no case component kits
available.
The key missing part is the UMTS pentaband antenna. There are
antenna modules out there (e.g. Antenova) but those are too big.
I think it would be more advantageous to spend time dealing with these
basic problems. That way, we will have a solid base from which to build
more advanced designs, including designs that incorporate a keyboard.
That time will be spent anyways. But without having this prototype, it wasn't
clear if we could head for a case variant with keys at all.
Usually in product design the electronics (and availability of components)
imposes more constraints so that design follows function. I.e. a good industrial
designer creates clothing for the internals. If you ask a designer to draw a
sketch and then try to build electronics inside, you can no longer use standard
components. Well, if you are Apple or Samsung, you can break this rule and
set the standard for new components.
But it is still useful to draw such sketches to know what we want...
I.e. both parts are important and none can do without the other.
Also, I believe we should not limit ourselves to the existing case
shape. I will say more about that in a separate email to the GTA04
list.
Yes, please do! Ideas are always welcome.
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
Diaspora: r...@pod.settrans.net
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
You could do pancakes+=2; :)
Nikolaus
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Re: [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
On Wed, 2012-05-02 at 11:02 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
I think the really important issue in developing a hardware keyboard is
in the physical design; the arrangement of keys, how the shape of keys
The arrangement of keys is more or less standardized, so there isn't
much room for experimentation.
I think there's quite a lot of variation in modern phone keyboards. For
example, some Blackberry phones have two alphanumeric characters per
key, some phones have no number keys, some have an arrow key block and
some don't, etc.
Even within the confines of a basic qwerty keyboard, there seem to be
many variations in layout; whether the rows are offset or aligned in a
grid, whether there is a multi-row Enter key, the size of the space bar,
etc.
effects ease of typing, how the keyboard is integrated into the case,
etc. In order to develop case designs that include a keyboard, we must
Yes, shape effects ease of typing. But also do the mechanical properties of
the electric contacts. I.e. what their contact force is. You can only test
that
with having the electronics ready (at least in a prototype status).
That's a fair point.
first have designs for cases without a keyboard :-)
Well, but what do you do if you design a keyboard where the mechanical
switches are not available? Part of the experiment was to test how well
these Panasonic things work, how easily they can be soldered, what they
impose as the minimum distance between buttons.
I see.
At present, we do not have this. As I understand it, Slyon's cases do
not fit together properly and so we cannot build a complete GTA04 case
from them yet (has this changed?) There are also no case component kits
available.
The key missing part is the UMTS pentaband antenna. There are
antenna modules out there (e.g. Antenova) but those are too big.
It might be worth designing a slightly different case in order to
accommodate a usable antenna module. There is a danger of allowing
one's self to be limited by the existing design. I would say change the
case design if it will allow production of complete phones.
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
You could do pancakes+=2; :)
True. But why would I want to skip a pancake? ;-)
--
Bob Ham r...@settrans.net
Diaspora: r...@pod.settrans.net
for (;;) { ++pancakes; }
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Re: [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
we have developed a prototype for a 80 button QWERTY keyboard PCB ... That's cool news, thet put some hope on top of current lots-of-garbage-but-no-usable-device style smartphone market. b) design a 3D printable case with key-caps that is robust enough I suggest using a scissor mechanism where the keyboard slides out instead. Hmm... I could not get what is the alternative to keyboard that slides out the main case. If keyboard is not mechanically mounted with phone into single divice (e.g. if it is a separate box connected by a wire), it immediately gets a major usability hit - same as e.g. external bluetooth keyboard has. One can't keep phone AND keyboard in one hand while e.g. standing in crowded transport. Nikita ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
Hi Matthias, Am 01.05.2012 um 19:17 schrieb Matthias Apitz: El día Tuesday, May 01, 2012 a las 06:06:23PM +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller escribió: Hi, we have developed a prototype for a 80 button QWERTY keyboard PCB that could eventually be connected/integrated into the GTA04. It should fit into a specially designed battery cover so that you can easily stow it away if not needed. Such battery covers could be produced individually through 3D printing solving the issue of manageing and stocking 20 different key layouts. But watch yourself how we think it can look like: http://youtu.be/WM94%5fR5eKcc ... a) how to reliably connect it to the GTA04 PCB (soldering copper wires or a FFCs is a little difficult so it should have a tiny, flexible but robust B2B cable). Maybe, we can use a micro-USB socket or similar (we need to connect 6 wires). This may also need a redesign of the GTA04 board (for a nice plug) b) design a 3D printable case with key-caps that is robust enough Hi Nikolaus, I watched the movies and do not understand one thing: to use the keyboard, one should open the backside and put the kb apart on the table, right? I'd prefer a (fingerfriendly) touchscreen kb, which Yes. And they are connected through a tiny ribbon cable to carry along the I2C signals and 1.8V power. perhaps must occupy 2/3 of the screen, overlaying the app which receives the keystrokes (and one can put the kb away to look at the app in fullscreen); just my $0.02 We all know that there are two ideologies represented by the members of the community. One wants to have a finger friendly keyboard on screen and no additional hardware. The other one wants a physical keyboard and always a full screen because it gives better tactile feedback and is more reliable when typing fast. Our idea is: why not serve both? So this is the solution for the second group... Thanks matthias BR, Nikolaus ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [ANN] GTA04 Keyboard prototype
On Tue, 1 May 2012 18:06:23 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller h...@goldelico.com wrote: Hi, we have developed a prototype for a 80 button QWERTY keyboard PCB that could eventually be connected/integrated into the GTA04. It should fit into a specially designed battery cover so that you can easily stow it away if not needed. Such battery covers could be produced individually through 3D printing solving the issue of manageing and stocking 20 different key layouts. But watch yourself how we think it can look like: http://youtu.be/WM94%5fR5eKcc There is also a new video showing a comparison with some other keyboards: http://youtu.be/wGASnE1zGh4 Pleas tell us if you like this idea and what you would like to pay for such an extension unit through the Wishlist function of our shop: http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3AKeyboard This looks like quite an ingenious solution for adding a real keyboard to the both the GTA04 (and possibly the GTA02 as well?). Kudos! Two issues are still to be developed: a) how to reliably connect it to the GTA04 PCB (soldering copper wires or a FFCs is a little difficult so it should have a tiny, flexible but robust B2B cable). Maybe, we can use a micro-USB socket or similar (we need to connect 6 wires). This may also need a redesign of the GTA04 board (for a nice plug) I see a few issues with the way the design is showcased in the videos. Mainly from durability and practicality standpoints. I love the concept but I think it could be improved with a few tweaks. It appears from the videos as if your current method of operation would act like an inverted laptop hinge. Is this assumption correct? Hopefully this would still allow access to the battery compartment while attached but it would require a very robust detent to support the weight of the phone especially during use. This also appears to be a weak point for durability as well. I'm glad you're thinking about expanding the phone and you've clearly given thought to being able to detach the keyboard/battery cover easily by incorporating a plug. b) design a 3D printable case with key-caps that is robust enough I suggest using a scissor mechanism where the keyboard slides out instead. If you want to support us for developing this idea, please give us a kickstart donation. Nikolaus PS: the keyboard driver for the TCA8418 is already part of Linux 3.3 - and has been backported to the 2.6.32-kernel. This has been tested to work on a BeagleBoard XM. http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=commit;h=f19d5c430458bbce8955bc9e04dd161f6a80347d It just needs platform data in the board file: http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=blobdiff;f=arch/arm/mach-omap2/board-omap3gta04.c;h=8a7e4b0803920f635e7101bfbd5a60b6b84b1107;hp=3e49efef2de0b42cd419a46a9cd45448fd04a44c;hb=4b2de3db742abce9212c1af2cc576e2a3a64b0d9;hpb=1d7c6b5f043661621ec374d96c3c4a4454f9bb7b snip ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
