Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Helge Hafting]

mobi phil wrote:
> no offense, but thinkin only about yourself, what you want, is probably 
> the cause nr. one for openmoko company/project failing. If you want a 
> company to sponsor the development of the project, they need to have 
> benefit. They can generate benefit by selling devices. But if you fail 
> to put on the device minimal usability only a small amount of the 
> potential customers will consider buying the device. By providing a bit 
> more usability openmoko would have been able to sell more phones. Lot of 
> IT friends laughed at me when I tried to show them the phone... actually 
> I could show nothing. If I was able to show a bit more... these guys 
> would have probably considered buying the phone etc...

If you want to show off, install some apps. For game players: Linball 
and mokomaze looks good. Tangogps with some maps, and one of the audio 
players. Set up wifi and surf the web on the 640x480 screen, which 
really is better than the 320x240 or so found on many other phones.

And then stuff that is hard to do on other phones because they don't 
have linux. ssh into some other machine, for example. Or in a 
windows-only place, show how you can log onto the file server directly 
and browse your files. Because the thing is a computer too. Look at 
images and documents.

> Developing only for your own satisfaction and thinking zero about giving 
> back as usability helps less than zero!

Many developers develop only for their own satisfaction - but happily 
share the stuff. And this helps, for generally, lots of people wants the 
same stuff.

Helge Hafting

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Helge Hafting]

Brolin Empey wrote:
> 1. Are there applications with all of the specific features I listed, 
> though?  My Nokia 6103b has some basic organiser applications, such as 
> for calender and task lists, but it does not have all of the features I 
> listed.

Depends on what linux distro you choose to run. There are several. Some 
are optimized for running on the phone, but may or may not have all the 
features you want. Then there is debian and gentoo that have more apps 
than you could possibly install, but they are not made specifically for 
the phone. You can test these distros on a PC, in order to test the 
software.

If you want to try freerunner-specific software before buying, set up 
phone emulation with vmware or similiar virtualization software. The 
simulated phone will be slow, but you can at least test app features 
this way.

> 
> I can live without PC sync as long as my information is safe in my 
> FreeRunner (stored in non-volatile memory in case the battery dies).

I have never lost data, my experience is that everything is stored in 
non-volatile memory. The internal flash memory, or the microSD card.

> 2. Is the FreeRunner’s display readable without a backlight?  My Nokia 
> 6103b’s display has a backlight, but the backlight turns off after a few 
> seconds of inactivity.  

I do not find it readable without a backlight, but you can set the 
backlight timeout as long as you like. So if you want a few minutes, you 
can have that!

> 3. I leave my Nokia 6103b on for about 16 hours or less per day.  I do 
> not use it for most of that time.  When I do use it, it is usually for 
> SMS or organiser applications, not for voice calls.  Will the 
> FreeRunner’s battery life be OK for my usage?

When not in use, the phone suspends automatically and uses very little 
power. It wakes up automatically if a call or sms comes in - or if you 
touch the power button. It should wake up in under 2s, at least with the 
SHR distro.

To be on the safe side, I charge the phone every day. this is not as 
necessary as it used to be - suspending didn't work well in the 
beginning but this is fine now. It will not last 16 hours if you don't 
let it suspend though - for example if you do gps logging all the time.

Helge Hafting

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Chris Samuel]

On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 06:23:14 pm Michal Brzozowski wrote:

> I think it was pretty reliable too, except the duplicating sms bug. But
> that's not a big deal I think.

That's fixed in QtMoko, which is a great relief! :-)

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[abatrour]

> FYI (in case you weren't aware) you can get the buzz fix from SDG Systems
if the
> phone is sent to them by 15 July.  Just pay postage there and shipping
> back and
> you get a battery for your trouble.

Yeah I'm aware but thanks for the heads up though. I just don't want to give
it up lol. I have a friend who is good with a soldering iron. I just need
the parts.
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Ian Stephen]

Quoting abatrour :

>
> Hey, I live in the lower mainland as well. I have om2009 installed and I can
> send and receive text messages just fine. I don't do actual calls yet
> because I don't have the buzzfix,

FYI (in case you weren't aware) you can get the buzz fix from SDG Systems if the
phone is sent to them by 15 July.  Just pay postage there and shipping back and
you get a battery for your trouble.

http://sdgsystems.com/estore/cart.php?target=product&product_id=269&category_id=17

(watch the URL-wrap)

IanS

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Re: posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[mobi phil]

maybe http://wave.google.com/ will solve the problem?



http://mobiphil.com





On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 7:25 AM, fredrik normann <
fredrik.normann.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

> so true
>
> 2009/6/26 Fabian Schölzel 
>
> Long long ago, someone wrote :
>> >
>> > And sometimes, you just dont have to quote, because
>> > the discussion hierarchy isnt lost within mailing lists.
>> >
>>
>> True.
>>
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>
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>


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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[abatrour]

Hey, I live in the lower mainland as well. I have om2009 installed and I can
send and receive text messages just fine. I don't do actual calls yet
because I don't have the buzzfix, but if you're in the area I can let you
test out my phone to see if you like it. The battery lasts about a day, most
of the time it is in the "sleep mode" or "stand by" whatever you want to
call it. It seems pretty stable. Sometimes accessing txt messages takes a
while but a reboot every few days usually fixes that and I can imagine that
issue being fixed pretty soon. And I have only encountered the WSOD once
while using it.



Hello,

I need a GSM cell phone to replace my Palm Z22 PDA.  I use Speak Out
Wireless (prepaid) in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia, Canada.  I do
not have a data plan.  I am wondering whether a FreeRunner will work well
for me.  I am currently using a Nokia 6103b.


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Re: posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[fredrik normann]

so true

2009/6/26 Fabian Schölzel 

> Long long ago, someone wrote :
> >
> > And sometimes, you just dont have to quote, because
> > the discussion hierarchy isnt lost within mailing lists.
> >
>
> True.
>
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Re: posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Fabian Schölzel]

Long long ago, someone wrote :
>
> And sometimes, you just dont have to quote, because
> the discussion hierarchy isnt lost within mailing lists.
>

True.

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Re: posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Fokkema]

LOL

On Fri, 2009-06-26 at 12:32 +0200, DJDAS wrote:
> FINALLY :) Thumbs up!

BWL



> FINALLY :) Thumbs up!
> 
> (To not hurt anyone :P )

ROTFL

David


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Re: posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[DJDAS]

FINALLY :) Thumbs up!

arne anka ha scritto:
> any chance you fight that out somewhere else?
> the discussions about the prefered posting style (and no, there's no  
> rule!) is as old as the internet -- and both positions still live and kick.
>
> that can only mean one thing:
> for both prefs good reasons exist and no party could ever convince the  
> other one.
>
> if you, please, would stop to argue on that mostly religuous level and  
> look to what you (hopefully) want to achieve?
>
> "do not top post!" is as stupid as "do not bottom post!", and assumptions  
> what users do, are always subjective -- if i receive a mail with bottom  
> posting, i don  not read the entire mail, but scroll to the part not cited  
> (usually marked by different color or missing symbol at line position 0).
>
> simply always cut down the mail to tzhe neccissities, do not stupidly type  
> either bottom or top.
>
> the realy annoyance is not top or bottom posting, the real annoyance are  
> those stupid mails where simply everything everybody once saidf is  
> included -- and even those fighting for "nettiquette" do that very often!
>
> a good rule _would_ be to imagine, that recipients _are_ reading the mails  
> on their fr -- it easily reminds you to not live for dogms but for common  
> sense.
>
> btw: those lengthy mails are annoying not only on the fr but even on my  
> netbook with about 600px screen height! and that is use rather often to  
> check mails.
>
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FINALLY :) Thumbs up!

(To not hurt anyone :P )



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posting style preferences was Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[arne anka]

any chance you fight that out somewhere else?
the discussions about the prefered posting style (and no, there's no  
rule!) is as old as the internet -- and both positions still live and kick.

that can only mean one thing:
for both prefs good reasons exist and no party could ever convince the  
other one.

if you, please, would stop to argue on that mostly religuous level and  
look to what you (hopefully) want to achieve?

"do not top post!" is as stupid as "do not bottom post!", and assumptions  
what users do, are always subjective -- if i receive a mail with bottom  
posting, i don  not read the entire mail, but scroll to the part not cited  
(usually marked by different color or missing symbol at line position 0).

simply always cut down the mail to tzhe neccissities, do not stupidly type  
either bottom or top.

the realy annoyance is not top or bottom posting, the real annoyance are  
those stupid mails where simply everything everybody once saidf is  
included -- and even those fighting for "nettiquette" do that very often!

a good rule _would_ be to imagine, that recipients _are_ reading the mails  
on their fr -- it easily reminds you to not live for dogms but for common  
sense.

btw: those lengthy mails are annoying not only on the fr but even on my  
netbook with about 600px screen height! and that is use rather often to  
check mails.

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michal Brzozowski]

2009/6/26 Nikita V. Youshchenko 

> - when author formats message such that his reply is just below the text he
> replies to, he will likely see and re-read it while typing, and really
> reply to it, not to something else that his oppoinent never wrote.
>

True, but sometimes you want to make a general remark on the subject of the
thread, and then I think it's ok to top post.

A worse habit is when someone is bottom posting and quotes the whole email
and you have to scroll down to see what he wrote.
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Nikita V. Youshchenko]

> there is no functional harm to top posting, only that it violates your
> preference.

There is.

With top posting, it may be, and often is, hard to understand what 
patricular part of previous message(s) author is answering to.

Because of that:

- reading and understanding discussion becomes much harder,

- when author formats message such that his reply is just below the text he 
replies to, he will likely see and re-read it while typing, and really 
reply to it, not to something else that his oppoinent never wrote.

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Ford]

everything on the internet does not have to have rules. netiquette is a
set of social conventions.  not a protocol rule of operation, and a set
of opinionated recommendations.  some are based on functional reasoning,
others are based entirely on preference.  if you wish to continue this,
please take this off list.  in keeping with netiquette, it's off topic. 
for the record, before the line wrapping of 72, the previous screen
width was 40 and yes, there were plenty of people that insisted things
be formatted to fit within.

there is no functional harm to top posting, only that it violates your
preference.

please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style

Matthias Apitz wrote:
> [...]

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Fokkema]

On Fri, 2009-06-26 at 02:09 -0400, David Ford wrote:
> people have different ideas about how to use their devices.  regarding 
> netiquette, opinion varies and there is no one solution which fits 
> everyone best.  not every wants to use text based clients, nor scroll to 
> the end of a page.  regardless of it being near instant or several 
> steps, they are still unnecessary steps.  in the end this is, as it 
> always has been, a religious preference that some people attempt to 
> enforce passionately.  thankfully the passionate argument of 40 column 
> text has disappeared.

What do you mean?
40 columns? Way
too much for my
terminal! I read
this from punchcards
(extended version)
so that I really
need your mails to
wrap around much less
than 40 columns.
I hate people are
making so many
assumptions as to
what terminal I'm
using to read their
mails. So, I agree
with your first
point.

Regards,

David

PS: This thread
alone has made for
a nice stack of
cards. Still think-
ing about ways to
use them...


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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Matthias Apitz]

El día Friday, June 26, 2009 a las 02:09:51AM -0400, David Ford escribió:

> people have different ideas about how to use their devices.  regarding 
> netiquette, opinion varies and there is no one solution which fits 
> everyone best.  not every wants to use text based clients, nor scroll to 
> the end of a page.  regardless of it being near instant or several 
> steps, they are still unnecessary steps.  in the end this is, as it 
> always has been, a religious preference that some people attempt to 
> enforce passionately.  thankfully the passionate argument of 40 column 
> text has disappeared.

Everything in Internet must have rules, for example, mail is transported
by protocols like SMTP and they are ruled in RFC's like RFC822. One of
those rules is the netiquette, another is line wrapping around column
68-72 (and not 40) which makes still much sense and has not disappeared;
even your text is correcly wrapped, only wrong (top) posted.

matthias
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Ford]

people have different ideas about how to use their devices.  regarding 
netiquette, opinion varies and there is no one solution which fits 
everyone best.  not every wants to use text based clients, nor scroll to 
the end of a page.  regardless of it being near instant or several 
steps, they are still unnecessary steps.  in the end this is, as it 
always has been, a religious preference that some people attempt to 
enforce passionately.  thankfully the passionate argument of 40 column 
text has disappeared.

On 06/26/09 01:28, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> I think I'd never use my FR to read and answer the hundreds of mail I 
> receive every day;

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Matthias Apitz]

El día Thursday, June 25, 2009 a las 02:47:34PM -0400, David Ford escribió:

> have you ever tried reading an ever growing message thread on your FR?  
> scrolling isn't easy, nor is it fast.

I think I'd never use my FR to read and answer the hundreds of mail I
receive every day;

in general: Use a MUA which does not scroll, but page (like mutt+vi) and in 
which
you can easily jump to the place you want to read or delete some hundred
of lines of nonsense in a thread just by typing .,$d

matthias

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[rixed]

-[ Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 02:35:10PM -0400, David Ford ]
> every other cellphone i've ever had, had a nearly 
> instant transition from ring to talk when i answered it.

Certainly because they use hardware from the future.


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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[rixed]

-[ Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 02:47:34PM -0400, David Ford ]
> have you ever tried reading an ever growing message thread on your FR?  
> scrolling isn't easy, nor is it fast.

Another part of the "netiquette" handle this : if the requotes are
not usefull then delete them.


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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michal Brzozowski]

2009/6/25 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer 

> Am Mittwoch, den 24.06.2009, 17:32 -0600 schrieb Laura Vance:
> > The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much
> > of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language
> > (Python).
>
> It becomes less of an absurdity when you know the history.
>
> > The core systems need to be compiled.
>
> I agree.
>
>
I had a look at qt extended sources. It seems that there's middleware for OM
out there that's stable and fast, written in C++. It's also portable to a a
dozen other devices.

What are the reasons why were not using it on Om2009?
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Laszlo KREKACS]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 8:35 PM, David Ford wrote:
> i answer it and i can leave it sitting on the
> desk for another 7-15 seconds while it keeps on ringing before i pick it
> up and can talk.

You should definietly try out om2009. It takes about 2 sec delay when ringing,
and the delay between picking up and be able to talk takes about 2 sec too.

It is managable, and I never loosed calls because of the delay. (although it
was the case with other distribution in the past).

And om2009 dont even use the vala implementation (yet) of frameworkd.
So things are going definietly great.

Laszlo

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Marcel]

Good point!

Additionally, I would prefer mailman (or whatever program does it) not 
appending the ml signature to *every* mail but only to the ones which 
don't have it at the bottom anymore. I always need to remove multiple (3 
or more) instances of that sig everytime I do "netiquette-compliant" top-
quoting.

Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2009 20:47:34 schrieb David Ford:
> have you ever tried reading an ever growing message thread on your FR?
> scrolling isn't easy, nor is it fast.
>
> -d
>
> On 06/25/09 08:14, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> > I think one (you and others) should not do top posting; in addition I
> > think that the full thread is less than zero usefull;
> >
> > matthias
>
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Ford]

have you ever tried reading an ever growing message thread on your FR?  
scrolling isn't easy, nor is it fast.

-d

On 06/25/09 08:14, Matthias Apitz wrote:
> I think one (you and others) should not do top posting; in addition I
> think that the full thread is less than zero usefull;
>
>   matthias
>

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Ford]

actually - and i'm not picking on you, it really bugs me that developers 
think "oh, i don't need to trim this down and it's ok to suck up more 
resources because next year ram will be cheaper"

that's the reason why we have desktops that still bog down with half a 
dozen programs running even though we now have orders of magnitude more 
resources.  imagine what our desktops could actually do if we didn't 
have 183 levels of abstraction, 52 different sound ways to do sound, 
themes and rendering, etc, etc.  just imagine having a browser that 
could actually scroll smoothly with multimedia objects, without 
requiring a quad xeon system and 8gigs of ram.

please don't buy into the wasteful use of resources as "planning for the 
future".  it's bothersome to go through accessories like a pair of 
shoes.  that's one of the things that makes linux (*nix) so much better 
is that it can still run on "old" hardware.

i nearly miss most of my calls on my phone even when it's sitting right 
here next to me because it takes so long for the phone user interface 
software to respond to me and tell the gsm modem to answer the call.  
that's entirely silly.   i answer it and i can leave it sitting on the 
desk for another 7-15 seconds while it keeps on ringing before i pick it 
up and can talk.  every other cellphone i've ever had, had a nearly 
instant transition from ring to talk when i answered it.

:-/

On 06/25/09 06:26, mobi phil wrote:
> How long do you think people will carry arround the freerunner in 
> their pockets, when next year the same time you will be able to buy a 
> "crap" :) nvidia tegra based device with 500MB memory for 200$ ?
> Plan for the future, not for the past :)
>

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Ford]

mind you, while i've enjoyed the convenience of learning and writing my 
sms app in python/pygtk, when i'm done learning it'll definitely be 
redone in C.  i'm also interested in seeing what vala has to offer and 
the contrast of it with C.

-david

On 06/25/09 05:15, David Fokkema wrote:
> But it won't use more than, lets just mention some random language
> that's currently making up most of FSO / Paroli (thus Om2009), python.
>
> I'm very fond of python BTW, but I don't think efficiently using memory
> resources is one of its strengths, but you can prove me wrong any
> time, ;-)
>
> David
>

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Matthias Apitz]

El día Thursday, June 25, 2009 a las 02:25:39PM +0200, mobi phil escribió:

> I am affraid that even if you would do your best you would not be able to
> reason what is usefull for all the people who subscribed for the list. It is
> usefull for at least two people: the person who started the thread and me
> :). On the other side it is inpolite to reason in name of others.
> 
> > I think one (you and others) should not do top posting; in addition I
> > think that the full thread is less than zero usefull;

First, you should read the netiquette and understand that top posting
violates it. Second, as you could read above I said «I think» and never
was inpolite to reason in name of others.

matthias
-- 
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[George Brooke]

On Thursday 25 June 2009 13:25:39 mobi phil wrote:
> I am affraid that even if you would do your best you would not be able to
> reason what is usefull for all the people who subscribed for the list. It
> is usefull for at least two people: the person who started the thread and
> me
>
> :). On the other side it is inpolite to reason in name of others.
>
> So the conclusion is your last post is zero at power of infinet usefull :)
For f*ck sake people this isn't a school playground stop with the childish 
bickering. That last line isn't clever or even funny.

solar.george



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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michal Brzozowski]

2009/6/25 mobi phil 

> How long do you think people will carry arround the freerunner in their
> pockets, when next year the same time you will be able to buy a "crap" :)
> nvidia tegra based device with 500MB memory for 200$ ?
>
> Plan for the future, not for the past :)
>
>

Nvidia writes software for nvidia tegra, and I'm writing software for
Freerunner. And I don't see another Freerunner coming next year with double
the memory.

And I hope that the FSO team doesn't follow your reasoning, otherwise the
next stable release would be for GTA03.
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[mobi phil]

I am affraid that even if you would do your best you would not be able to
reason what is usefull for all the people who subscribed for the list. It is
usefull for at least two people: the person who started the thread and me
:). On the other side it is inpolite to reason in name of others.

So the conclusion is your last post is zero at power of infinet usefull :)



On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Matthias Apitz  wrote:

> El día Thursday, June 25, 2009 a las 01:50:19PM +0200, mobi phil escribió:
>
> > no offense, but thinkin only about yourself, what you want, is probably
> the
> > cause nr. one for openmoko company/project failing. If you want a company
> to
> > sponsor the development of the project, they need to have benefit. They
> can
> > generate benefit by selling devices. But if you fail to put on the device
> > minimal usability only a small amount of the potential customers will
> > consider buying the device. By providing a bit more usability openmoko
> would
> > have been able to sell more phones. Lot of IT friends laughed at me when
> I
> > tried to show them the phone... actually I could show nothing. If I was
> able
> > to show a bit more... these guys would have probably considered buying
> the
> > phone etc...
> >
> > Developing only for your own satisfaction and thinking zero about giving
> > back as usability helps less than zero!
>
> I think one (you and others) should not do top posting; in addition I
> think that the full thread is less than zero usefull;
>
>matthias
> --
> Matthias Apitz
> t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211
> e  - w http://www.unixarea.de/
> People who hate Microsoft Windows use Linux but people who love UNIX use
> FreeBSD.
>



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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Matthias Apitz]

El día Thursday, June 25, 2009 a las 01:50:19PM +0200, mobi phil escribió:

> no offense, but thinkin only about yourself, what you want, is probably the
> cause nr. one for openmoko company/project failing. If you want a company to
> sponsor the development of the project, they need to have benefit. They can
> generate benefit by selling devices. But if you fail to put on the device
> minimal usability only a small amount of the potential customers will
> consider buying the device. By providing a bit more usability openmoko would
> have been able to sell more phones. Lot of IT friends laughed at me when I
> tried to show them the phone... actually I could show nothing. If I was able
> to show a bit more... these guys would have probably considered buying the
> phone etc...
> 
> Developing only for your own satisfaction and thinking zero about giving
> back as usability helps less than zero!

I think one (you and others) should not do top posting; in addition I
think that the full thread is less than zero usefull;

matthias
-- 
Matthias Apitz
t +49-89-61308 351 - f +49-89-61308 399 - m +49-170-4527211
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[mobi phil]

no offense, but thinkin only about yourself, what you want, is probably the
cause nr. one for openmoko company/project failing. If you want a company to
sponsor the development of the project, they need to have benefit. They can
generate benefit by selling devices. But if you fail to put on the device
minimal usability only a small amount of the potential customers will
consider buying the device. By providing a bit more usability openmoko would
have been able to sell more phones. Lot of IT friends laughed at me when I
tried to show them the phone... actually I could show nothing. If I was able
to show a bit more... these guys would have probably considered buying the
phone etc...

Developing only for your own satisfaction and thinking zero about giving
back as usability helps less than zero!

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Marcin Ćwikła  wrote:

> Sebastian Krzyszkowiak pisze:
>
>>  And I'm developing mostly
>> for myself (satisfaction, learning, and usable phone :P)
>>
>
> For me too! :)
>
> --
> jahckal
>
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Marcin Ćwikła]

Sebastian Krzyszkowiak pisze:

 And I'm developing mostly
for myself (satisfaction, learning, and usable phone :P)


For me too! :)

--
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Sebastian Krzyszkowiak]

I don't want to buy Tegra based device or any other propertiary stuff.
I want to work on my Neo FreeRunner long. And I'm developing mostly
for myself (satisfaction, learning, and usable phone :P)

On 6/25/09, mobi phil  wrote:
> How long do you think people will carry arround the freerunner in their
> pockets, when next year the same time you will be able to buy a "crap" :)
> nvidia tegra based device with 500MB memory for 200$ ?
>
> Plan for the future, not for the past :)
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Michal Brzozowski
> wrote:
>
>> 2009/6/25 mobi phil 
>>
>>> I agree that C++ compiler produces larger footprint. This is due to the
>>> more complex abstraction, expanded templates etc. Normally memory density
>>> doubles each year and prices halfs.
>>>
>>
>>
>> But the Freerunner has 128mb of RAM, and I don't see it doubling every
>> year
>> :-)
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[mobi phil]

How long do you think people will carry arround the freerunner in their
pockets, when next year the same time you will be able to buy a "crap" :)
nvidia tegra based device with 500MB memory for 200$ ?

Plan for the future, not for the past :)




On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Michal Brzozowski wrote:

> 2009/6/25 mobi phil 
>
>> I agree that C++ compiler produces larger footprint. This is due to the
>> more complex abstraction, expanded templates etc. Normally memory density
>> doubles each year and prices halfs.
>>
>
>
> But the Freerunner has 128mb of RAM, and I don't see it doubling every year
> :-)
>
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>


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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michal Brzozowski]

2009/6/25 mobi phil 

> I agree that C++ compiler produces larger footprint. This is due to the
> more complex abstraction, expanded templates etc. Normally memory density
> doubles each year and prices halfs.
>


But the Freerunner has 128mb of RAM, and I don't see it doubling every year
:-)
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Am Donnerstag, den 25.06.2009, 11:57 +0200 schrieb Michal Brzozowski:
> 2009/6/25 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer 
> 
> That said, this is exactly the reason why I have decided to go
> with Vala
> for FSO 2.0 -- it combines a high abstraction level with the
> raw
> performance of C.
> 
> 
> Is there any rough schedule for releasing FSO 2.0?

The good thing is that we don't have to wait for a release of the whole
thing. As 2.0 subsystems will individually be finished released, we can
substitute the Python counterparts with the Vala ones.

The bad thing is that it is a huge task and we no longer are funded by
Openmoko. Still, as you can see in the Cornucopia git tree, I'm devoting
quite some time.

The good thing again is we are in the process of founding a BGB company
in Germany, hence are soon contractable as a team -- we really would
love to continue working on it more than just in our spare time.

Cheers,

:M:



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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Am Donnerstag, den 25.06.2009, 08:47 +0200 schrieb Michal Brzozowski:
> 2009/6/25 Laura Vance 
> The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact
> that so much
> of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted
> language
> (Python).  This alone contributes to the slowness of the
> device.  Heck,
> the frameworkd is a python program. (top shows "python
> /usr/bin/frameworkd").  
> 
> The FSO website suggests that they are (or were) planning to port it
> to C or Vala at some point.

This is already underway. fsousaged is done, fsodeviced will be finished
during LinuxTag.

>  But who knows if and when that will happen.

Me :)

:M:


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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Am Mittwoch, den 24.06.2009, 17:32 -0600 schrieb Laura Vance:
> The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much 
> of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language 
> (Python).

It becomes less of an absurdity when you know the history.

> The core systems need to be compiled.

I agree.

:M:



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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[mobi phil]

I agree that C++ compiler produces larger footprint. This is due to the more
complex abstraction, expanded templates etc. Normally memory density doubles
each year and prices halfs. For implementing the same abstraction, you would
create probably the same size of exectable both in C and C++, and probably
you would not use more than 20% more memory. What about productivity? I am
sure that implementing a correct memory management strategy: smart pointers,
object managers ( they add a bit to the overhead, but with increasing
memory, does it matter?), it would be probably possible to avoid the
annoying transition from "prototype" phase in pyothon to C phase (or other
similar).

By the way, did anybody measure/compare (with real data, not based on
presumptions and previous experiences) the memory consumption (text, data,
dynamic data etc.) of QT and other frameworks applications?




On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Laura Vance  wrote:

> It's not about the programmer managing memory, the C++ compiler produces
> a MUCH larger memory footprint.
>
> I like C++ programming, and I used C for years before that.  My first
> exposure to C++ was when I simply compiled one of my C programs with the
> C++ switch.  An executable file that was about 2k compiled as C became
> about 140k compiled as C++ ... I didn't modify the code at all.
>
> The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much
> of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language
> (Python).  This alone contributes to the slowness of the device.  Heck,
> the frameworkd is a python program. (top shows "python
> /usr/bin/frameworkd").  The core systems need to be compiled.  With a
> past employer, I did most of my development in perl, and I ran into a
> bottleneck in the interpreter for startup time.  I copied the program in
> C++ and did a load comparison of the two.  It was easy to bring the
> system to its knees with the interpreted language, but I couldn't even
> get the cpu load to bump more than a tiny bit using the compiled C++.
> (I write perl using the same structure as my C++, so it's very easy for
> me to port between the two)
>
> This is nothing against python in general, I don't think any interpreted
> language belongs in a phone except provide the interpreter for the
> individual owner to write their own code... but interpreted code should
> not make up the core of the system.  Interpreted languages are excellent
> for rapid prototyping and initial development, but once it's ready for
> any type of release, it should be ported to C (in this case) or C++.
>
> I do use my Freerunner (rev6 that nobody has told me about a buzz... and
> I've asked them) on a daily basis.  I choose not to let my phone go on
> standby, because I had heard about some of the problems with my current
> release, but I'm willing to charge it frequently since I am choosing to
> not let it standby.
>
> At some point, I'd like to get into the SMS code and make it do a few
> things:
> - Show the contact rather than the phone number
> - Show the actual time the message was received. (currently all messages
> are 1-1-1970)
> - Link the SMS message to a "voicemail" icon (my provider sends a
> message from -@ when I have voicemail and @ when all
> voicemail has been heard).
>
> But that's when I have the time. :)
>
> -Laura
>
>
> mobi phil wrote:
>
> > memory?... this remembers me about women... you can give the same
> > amount of money to a blond, black, brunette, blue eyes etc. women...
> > all of them they will spend it the same nanosecond...
> > give the same money to a good businessman He will use it carefully...
> >
> > the programming language does not make too much difference neither.
> > Give the same memory to an unconscious programmer he will waste it the
> > same, just in few lines of code whatever C or C++ or C-- his is
> > programming. Only issue could be memory fragmentation, that with a
> > little care could be avoided in C++ as well. Average C++ programmers
> > have no idea how to save memory. But C++ at least helps you a bit more
> > to think in patterns, to keep much more order with less effort.
> >
> > I think if one keeps for the backend all the legacy (not pejorative )
> > C code, but coding against a simple widgetset for the GUI in C++ is
> > not a bad idea. Creating a C wrapper, was not really a joke, for only
> > C programmers...
> >
> > I am not saying that C++ is better for the embedded devices, far from
> > that. Just that Qt has a much better abstraction than other toolkits,
> > and is easier to use than few other toolkits. And besides that
> > produces much better user experience. And it is portable. Encourage
> > programmers to create GUI with QT, in few days there will be somebody
> > who will port that to windows CE as there is QT toolkit for CE as
> > well. Then maybe wince programmers would also think about programming
> > against some more generic toolkit etc.
> >
> > By the way... did anybody "reverse enginee

Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michal Brzozowski]

2009/6/25 Michael 'Mickey' Lauer 

>
> That said, this is exactly the reason why I have decided to go with Vala
> for FSO 2.0 -- it combines a high abstraction level with the raw
> performance of C.
>
>
Is there any rough schedule for releasing FSO 2.0?
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

Am Mittwoch, den 24.06.2009, 22:32 +0200 schrieb mobi phil:
> By the way... did anybody "reverse engineer' a bit the iphone ?or
> Android?(not necessarily only the code, but gui patterns I think
> paying a little attention to their way of doing things maybe will
> inspire a bit.

Both Android and the MacOS have understood the value of abstractions and
frameworks especially given the constant rising of the complexity in the
problem domain. There's little chance in the future you can continue
keeping the same level of abstractions in the solution domain.

That said, this is exactly the reason why I have decided to go with Vala
for FSO 2.0 -- it combines a high abstraction level with the raw
performance of C.

Can't get much better ;)

Cheers,

:M:



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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Fokkema]

On Wed, 2009-06-24 at 17:32 -0600, Laura Vance wrote:
> Interpreted languages are excellent 
> for rapid prototyping and initial development, but once it's ready for 
> any type of release, it should be ported to C (in this case) or C++.

>From the FSO website
(http://www.freesmartphone.org/index.php/Cornucopia):

Always remember: The python implementation is the chance for getting the
API right; the vala implementation is the chance of getting the right
API fast.

... which is basically what you are saying.

David


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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Fokkema]

Talking about the memory usage of C++:

On Wed, 2009-06-24 at 22:30 +0200, Michal Brzozowski wrote:
> Hmm, that is one very aspect of C++ I wasn't aware of.

But it won't use more than, lets just mention some random language
that's currently making up most of FSO / Paroli (thus Om2009), python.

I'm very fond of python BTW, but I don't think efficiently using memory
resources is one of its strengths, but you can prove me wrong any
time, ;-)

David


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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Jose Luis Perez Diez]

El Thursday, 25 de June de 2009 08:47:04 Michal Brzozowski va escriure:
> 2009/6/25 Laura Vance 
>
> > The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much
> > of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language
> > (Python).  This alone contributes to the slowness of the device.  Heck,
> > the frameworkd is a python program. (top shows "python
> > /usr/bin/frameworkd").
>
> The FSO website suggests that they are (or were) planning to port it to C
> or Vala at some point. But who knows if and when that will happen.


The vala port seems active on:

 http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=cornucopia.git;a=summary


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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michal Brzozowski]

2009/6/25 Laura Vance 

> The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much
> of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language
> (Python).  This alone contributes to the slowness of the device.  Heck,
> the frameworkd is a python program. (top shows "python
> /usr/bin/frameworkd").
>

The FSO website suggests that they are (or were) planning to port it to C or
Vala at some point. But who knows if and when that will happen.
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Laura Vance]

It's not about the programmer managing memory, the C++ compiler produces 
a MUCH larger memory footprint.

I like C++ programming, and I used C for years before that.  My first 
exposure to C++ was when I simply compiled one of my C programs with the 
C++ switch.  An executable file that was about 2k compiled as C became 
about 140k compiled as C++ ... I didn't modify the code at all.

The thing that I think is a complete absurdity is the fact that so much 
of the software for the FR is written in an interpreted language 
(Python).  This alone contributes to the slowness of the device.  Heck, 
the frameworkd is a python program. (top shows "python 
/usr/bin/frameworkd").  The core systems need to be compiled.  With a 
past employer, I did most of my development in perl, and I ran into a 
bottleneck in the interpreter for startup time.  I copied the program in 
C++ and did a load comparison of the two.  It was easy to bring the 
system to its knees with the interpreted language, but I couldn't even 
get the cpu load to bump more than a tiny bit using the compiled C++.  
(I write perl using the same structure as my C++, so it's very easy for 
me to port between the two)

This is nothing against python in general, I don't think any interpreted 
language belongs in a phone except provide the interpreter for the 
individual owner to write their own code... but interpreted code should 
not make up the core of the system.  Interpreted languages are excellent 
for rapid prototyping and initial development, but once it's ready for 
any type of release, it should be ported to C (in this case) or C++.

I do use my Freerunner (rev6 that nobody has told me about a buzz... and 
I've asked them) on a daily basis.  I choose not to let my phone go on 
standby, because I had heard about some of the problems with my current 
release, but I'm willing to charge it frequently since I am choosing to 
not let it standby.

At some point, I'd like to get into the SMS code and make it do a few 
things:
- Show the contact rather than the phone number
- Show the actual time the message was received. (currently all messages 
are 1-1-1970)
- Link the SMS message to a "voicemail" icon (my provider sends a 
message from -@ when I have voicemail and @ when all 
voicemail has been heard).

But that's when I have the time. :)

-Laura


mobi phil wrote:

> memory?... this remembers me about women... you can give the same 
> amount of money to a blond, black, brunette, blue eyes etc. women... 
> all of them they will spend it the same nanosecond...
> give the same money to a good businessman He will use it carefully...
>
> the programming language does not make too much difference neither. 
> Give the same memory to an unconscious programmer he will waste it the 
> same, just in few lines of code whatever C or C++ or C-- his is 
> programming. Only issue could be memory fragmentation, that with a 
> little care could be avoided in C++ as well. Average C++ programmers 
> have no idea how to save memory. But C++ at least helps you a bit more 
> to think in patterns, to keep much more order with less effort.
>
> I think if one keeps for the backend all the legacy (not pejorative ) 
> C code, but coding against a simple widgetset for the GUI in C++ is 
> not a bad idea. Creating a C wrapper, was not really a joke, for only 
> C programmers...
>
> I am not saying that C++ is better for the embedded devices, far from 
> that. Just that Qt has a much better abstraction than other toolkits, 
> and is easier to use than few other toolkits. And besides that 
> produces much better user experience. And it is portable. Encourage 
> programmers to create GUI with QT, in few days there will be somebody 
> who will port that to windows CE as there is QT toolkit for CE as 
> well. Then maybe wince programmers would also think about programming 
> against some more generic toolkit etc.
>
> By the way... did anybody "reverse engineer' a bit the iphone ?or 
> Android?(not necessarily only the code, but gui patterns I think 
> paying a little attention to their way of doing things maybe will 
> inspire a bit.
>
> would not like to offend... just some random ideas...
>
> mobip...@mobiphil.com 
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:08 PM, David Ford  > wrote:
>
> do you understand the weight involved with using c++?  without
> very very
> careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices.
>  granted,
> having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices
> but it's still onerous.
>
> C is much more lightweight and very functional.  any benefits of c++
> usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices.
>
> -d
>
> On 06/24/09 07:09, mobi phil wrote:
> > Hey!! Is this kind of phrase "i am not interested in c++. " driving
> > the linux phone development? I can never understand how is it
> possible
> > to have such a huge

Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[mobi phil]

memory?... this remembers me about women... you can give the same amount of
money to a blond, black, brunette, blue eyes etc. women... all of them they
will spend it the same nanosecond...
give the same money to a good businessman He will use it carefully...

the programming language does not make too much difference neither. Give the
same memory to an unconscious programmer he will waste it the same, just in
few lines of code whatever C or C++ or C-- his is programming. Only issue
could be memory fragmentation, that with a little care could be avoided in
C++ as well. Average C++ programmers have no idea how to save memory. But
C++ at least helps you a bit more to think in patterns, to keep much more
order with less effort.

I think if one keeps for the backend all the legacy (not pejorative ) C
code, but coding against a simple widgetset for the GUI in C++ is not a bad
idea. Creating a C wrapper, was not really a joke, for only C programmers...

I am not saying that C++ is better for the embedded devices, far from that.
Just that Qt has a much better abstraction than other toolkits, and is
easier to use than few other toolkits. And besides that produces much better
user experience. And it is portable. Encourage programmers to create GUI
with QT, in few days there will be somebody who will port that to windows CE
as there is QT toolkit for CE as well. Then maybe wince programmers would
also think about programming against some more generic toolkit etc.

By the way... did anybody "reverse engineer' a bit the iphone ?or
Android?(not necessarily only the code, but gui patterns I think paying a
little attention to their way of doing things maybe will inspire a bit.

would not like to offend... just some random ideas...

mobip...@mobiphil.com


On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:08 PM, David Ford  wrote:

> do you understand the weight involved with using c++?  without very very
> careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices.  granted,
> having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices
> but it's still onerous.
>
> C is much more lightweight and very functional.  any benefits of c++
> usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices.
>
> -d
>
> On 06/24/09 07:09, mobi phil wrote:
> > Hey!! Is this kind of phrase "i am not interested in c++. " driving
> > the linux phone development? I can never understand how is it possible
> > to have such a huge gap on the scale between C programmers and C++
> > programmers? Why are C++ programmers dying out? Is it because some C
> > programmers never managed to get the point with C++ and those who did,
> > switched automatically to Java? I propose a C wrapper arround Qt, for
> > the C programmers, and everybody will still benefit, beleive me. QT is
> > a treasure, is a nice clean code! And it is fast!
>
> ___
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> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>



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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michal Brzozowski]

Hmm, that is one very aspect of C++ I wasn't aware of.

2009/6/24 David Ford 

> that is one typical aspect.
>
> Michal Brzozowski wrote:
> > 2009/6/24 David Ford mailto:da...@blue-labs.org>>
> >
> > do you understand the weight involved with using c++?  without
> > very very
> > careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices.
> >  granted,
> > having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller
> devices
> > but it's still onerous.
> >
> > C is much more lightweight and very functional.  any benefits of c++
> > usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices.
> >
> >
> >
> > What drawbacks do you mean? That is uses more memory?
>
>
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Ford]

that is one typical aspect.

Michal Brzozowski wrote:
> 2009/6/24 David Ford mailto:da...@blue-labs.org>>
>
> do you understand the weight involved with using c++?  without
> very very
> careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices.
>  granted,
> having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices
> but it's still onerous.
>
> C is much more lightweight and very functional.  any benefits of c++
> usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices.
>
>
>  
> What drawbacks do you mean? That is uses more memory?


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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michal Brzozowski]

2009/6/24 David Ford 

> do you understand the weight involved with using c++?  without very very
> careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices.  granted,
> having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices
> but it's still onerous.
>
> C is much more lightweight and very functional.  any benefits of c++
> usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices.
>


What drawbacks do you mean? That is uses more memory?
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Ford]

do you understand the weight involved with using c++?  without very very 
careful management, c++ is rather hefty for embedded devices.  granted, 
having 128M to work in is indeed far more tenable than smaller devices 
but it's still onerous.

C is much more lightweight and very functional.  any benefits of c++ 
usually don't overcome the drawbacks for embedded devices.

-d

On 06/24/09 07:09, mobi phil wrote:
> Hey!! Is this kind of phrase "i am not interested in c++. " driving 
> the linux phone development? I can never understand how is it possible 
> to have such a huge gap on the scale between C programmers and C++ 
> programmers? Why are C++ programmers dying out? Is it because some C 
> programmers never managed to get the point with C++ and those who did, 
> switched automatically to Java? I propose a C wrapper arround Qt, for 
> the C programmers, and everybody will still benefit, beleive me. QT is 
> a treasure, is a nice clean code! And it is fast!

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[mobi phil]

Hey!! Is this kind of phrase "i am not interested in c++. " driving the
linux phone development? I can never understand how is it possible to have
such a huge gap on the scale between C programmers and C++ programmers? Why
are C++ programmers dying out? Is it because some C programmers never
managed to get the point with C++ and those who did, switched automatically
to Java? I propose a C wrapper arround Qt, for the C programmers, and
everybody will still benefit, beleive me. QT is a treasure, is a nice clean
code! And it is fast!

By the way... nvidia tegra, the new dancer on the stage says "no linux on
tegra"
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2009/06/nvidia-says-no-to-linux-on-tegra-netbooks-chooses-wince.ars

or
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=nvidia+tegra+linux



mobiphil
mobiphil.com

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Al Johnson
wrote:

> On Monday 22 June 2009, mobi phil wrote:
> >I think carrying Xwindows is the biggest
> > mistake. I personally encourage QT or new start with gtk on top of
> > www.directfb.org/, so that gtk based interfaces can be reused... By the
> way
> > did anybody consider gtk with directfb as direction? Or I am wrong and
> the
> > bottleneck is not really Xwindows?
>
> This has been discussed _many_ times before. Those with extensive
> experience
> in this area have said X is not the bottleneck. I've just dug out a few of
> Raster's comments:
>
> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-April/046056.html
> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-November/035825.html
>
> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2008-February/001924.html
>
>
>
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>



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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michal Brzozowski]

2009/6/23 Brian C 

> I can buy a $20 pay-as-you go phone that has reliable SMS and voice
> calls, audible call volume, decent battery life, a fast boot process,
> reliable input method, a working calendar, and a few silly games.  This
> made me believe that the software side of things was relatively easy.
> ("If that cheapo phone can do it, the Freerunner developers will have
> these kinks worked out in no time" I thought.)  Maybe, as Joerg
> acknowledges too, all these little things ARE working on some distro or
> other or can be fixed by someone willing to tweak it "for three months"
> but in all this time I haven't been able to just flash the thing and get
> everything to work as reliably as my $20 junk phone.  This has surprised
> me.
>

When I bought my FR (around november), QtExtended worked as you describe. It
had everything that a phone needs. I think it was pretty reliable too,
except the duplicating sms bug. But that's not a big deal I think.

I didn't use it a lot just because you couldn't hack it as much as Om or
SHR. But the wiki said: if you want a reliable phone, and just a phone, use
QtExtended.
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Brian C]

I've had my Freerunner since day 1 and sadly have to agree with almost
everything Joerg has said.  The surprising thing to me is that we
haven't seen more significant improvement on the software side in the
last year.  I'm not saying things haven't improved, I've just had the
following in the back of my mind this whole time:

I can buy a $20 pay-as-you go phone that has reliable SMS and voice
calls, audible call volume, decent battery life, a fast boot process,
reliable input method, a working calendar, and a few silly games.  This
made me believe that the software side of things was relatively easy.
("If that cheapo phone can do it, the Freerunner developers will have
these kinks worked out in no time" I thought.)  Maybe, as Joerg
acknowledges too, all these little things ARE working on some distro or
other or can be fixed by someone willing to tweak it "for three months"
but in all this time I haven't been able to just flash the thing and get
everything to work as reliably as my $20 junk phone.  This has surprised
me.

I keep hoping that Koolu is going to release a version of Android that
accomplishes this, but that seems at least a few more weeks (months?)
off as well.

Every couple of weeks I take the time to install what appears to be the
"best" distro and fiddle with it for a day or so before being confounded
by an array of things that still don't work.  Then I set it aside and
wait another couple of weeks and repeat.

I couldn't advise even very experienced GNU/Linux users like our
original poster who want the FR to replace a capable smartphone to try
it right now.  As I see it, only two results are possible: he'll give up
disappointed or he'll spend way too much time ("3 months") trying to
tweak the FR to do that list of things he wants it to do and ultimately
succeed, but will have spent 3 months without a usable daily phone.

If those of us who feel like this are missing a great FR experience that
the rest of you daily users are having, then perhaps the wiki needs a
new section "Daily Users" where each person who is completely satisfied
with their FR setup can describe in excruciating detail (command by
command) how they got to that point so that the rest of us could
cut-and-paste their HOWTO and have the same experiences.  Without
something like that, I don't expect to be a daily user any time soon.

Brian

Joerg Lippmann wrote:
> Am Montag 22 Juni 2009 schrieb Ben Wong:
> 
>> I want to thank Joerg for taking the time to give a clear list of
>> reasons why a person might consider the Freerunner unsuitable as a
>> phone.  I think it'd be helpful if these and other points were put on
>> the wiki so that potential buyers can see the arguments against the
>> Freerunner, and what the community response is.  (E.g., Solved?
>> Kludged?  In progress?  Unfixable?)
> 
> Good starting point!
> 
> I'd like to thank everyone who answered my disgruntled mail in a constructive 
> manner. You all made a good case for the freerunner/openmoko and I appreciate 
> that. I think I see clearer, why I'm so unhappy with it now and maybe that's 
> the case for other people, too. 
> 
> I think, most of the technical answers totally missed my point. 
> 
> The guy wanted a smartphone. He didn't ask for an exiting piece of hardware 
> experimentation lab and developer paradise. If you recommend to tweak this 
> mixer-setting and install that tool and use that kernel-fix, then you prove, 
> that it's not for him. 
> 
> I listed a lot of points, where I got stuck or where I got frustrated with 
> the 
> Freerunner to show, where he might get stuck, too.
> 
> Granted, most of my points may be solved in distro A or fixed in Kernel B, or 
> fixable by tweaking settings in illume. but the point is, that there is (to 
> my 
> knowledge) not a single distro out there, that works perfectly out of the box 
> and has all the fixes already installed. Thats whats needed, if you want to 
> recommened it to the end-user.
> 
> You are offering me and this guy single proofs-of-concept, and that is great 
> for further development, but thats not a working everyday smartphone.
> 
> let me cite another mail (from Vasco Nevoa):
> 
> "Yes, it needs A LOT of attention and tweaking for about 3 months until 
> you get it "just right" for yourself, but after that it's "good enough" 
> as a phone and GPS, and a pretty good PDA."
> 
> See my point? 
> 
> Best wishes!
> j�...@home
> 
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Ford]

except for ophonekitd being crashy currently, nearly everything else 
works decently for me.  it's stable enough for me to be developing my 
SMS app for it.  honestly, i only do these fixes for issues about once 
every two to three weeks.  there are bugs that others encounter that 
i've never seen and there are bugs that i have encountered or deal with, 
that others never see, or they don't impact them. (current shr-unstable)

so, at the moment, it's working pretty good and i'm not spending any 
time fixing anything that -i- didn't break :)

-d

On 06/22/09 22:42, Damian Spriggs wrote:
> Sure, it's a developer phone, and is marketed as such, but what they
> don't tell you is what kind of developer. When I got mine 6 months
> ago, I took that to mean applications, not "everything about this
> needs massive help".
>
> I think one of the pitfalls for OM was trying to put everything out at
> once, instead of systematically selecting and stabilizing a kernel,
> then get the underlying system working, and finally get the UI and
> useable applications.  Now I haven't tried all the distros out there,
> but from the chatter I read on the maillists, it seems that each are
> shooting for that moving target in continuing the "all at once"
> approach, and predictably coming up short.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I love my Freerunner, and it's my daily/only phone
> (Hackable:1and SHR). I just wish I could spend more time working on
> applications than messing around with little fixes, rebooting, and
> waiting for something reasonably stable to develop for. :)

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Damian Spriggs]

Sure, it's a developer phone, and is marketed as such, but what they  
don't tell you is what kind of developer. When I got mine 6 months  
ago, I took that to mean applications, not "everything about this  
needs massive help".

I think one of the pitfalls for OM was trying to put everything out at  
once, instead of systematically selecting and stabilizing a kernel,  
then get the underlying system working, and finally get the UI and  
useable applications.  Now I haven't tried all the distros out there,  
but from the chatter I read on the maillists, it seems that each are  
shooting for that moving target in continuing the "all at once"  
approach, and predictably coming up short.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Freerunner, and it's my daily/only phone  
(Hackable:1and SHR). I just wish I could spend more time working on  
applications than messing around with little fixes, rebooting, and  
waiting for something reasonably stable to develop for. :)


On Jun 22, 2009, at 10:05 PM, David Ford wrote:

> this phone is marketed as a developer's phone, and all the websites
> related to this phone all have (or should have) discussion largely
> surrounding this.


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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[David Ford]

that's all quite true.  however, allow me to make just one point.

this phone is marketed as a developer's phone, and all the websites 
related to this phone all have (or should have) discussion largely 
surrounding this.

:)

On 06/22/09 21:51, Joerg Lippmann wrote:
> [...]
> let me cite another mail (from Vasco Nevoa):
>
> "Yes, it needs A LOT of attention and tweaking for about 3 months until
> you get it "just right" for yourself, but after that it's "good enough"
> as a phone and GPS, and a pretty good PDA."
>
> See my point?
>
> Best wishes!
> j�...@home
>
>

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Joerg Lippmann]

Am Montag 22 Juni 2009 schrieb Ben Wong:

> I want to thank Joerg for taking the time to give a clear list of
> reasons why a person might consider the Freerunner unsuitable as a
> phone.  I think it'd be helpful if these and other points were put on
> the wiki so that potential buyers can see the arguments against the
> Freerunner, and what the community response is.  (E.g., Solved?
> Kludged?  In progress?  Unfixable?)

Good starting point!

I'd like to thank everyone who answered my disgruntled mail in a constructive 
manner. You all made a good case for the freerunner/openmoko and I appreciate 
that. I think I see clearer, why I'm so unhappy with it now and maybe that's 
the case for other people, too. 

I think, most of the technical answers totally missed my point. 

The guy wanted a smartphone. He didn't ask for an exiting piece of hardware 
experimentation lab and developer paradise. If you recommend to tweak this 
mixer-setting and install that tool and use that kernel-fix, then you prove, 
that it's not for him. 

I listed a lot of points, where I got stuck or where I got frustrated with the 
Freerunner to show, where he might get stuck, too.

Granted, most of my points may be solved in distro A or fixed in Kernel B, or 
fixable by tweaking settings in illume. but the point is, that there is (to my 
knowledge) not a single distro out there, that works perfectly out of the box 
and has all the fixes already installed. Thats whats needed, if you want to 
recommened it to the end-user.

You are offering me and this guy single proofs-of-concept, and that is great 
for further development, but thats not a working everyday smartphone.

let me cite another mail (from Vasco Nevoa):

"Yes, it needs A LOT of attention and tweaking for about 3 months until 
you get it "just right" for yourself, but after that it's "good enough" 
as a phone and GPS, and a pretty good PDA."

See my point? 

Best wishes!
j�...@home

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Al Johnson]

On Monday 22 June 2009, mobi phil wrote:
>I think carrying Xwindows is the biggest
> mistake. I personally encourage QT or new start with gtk on top of
> www.directfb.org/, so that gtk based interfaces can be reused... By the way
> did anybody consider gtk with directfb as direction? Or I am wrong and the
> bottleneck is not really Xwindows?

This has been discussed _many_ times before. Those with extensive experience 
in this area have said X is not the bottleneck. I've just dug out a few of 
Raster's comments:

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-April/046056.html
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-November/035825.html
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2008-February/001924.html



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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[mobi phil]

I wrote some similar entries on my blog (http://mobiphil.com), unfortunately
I share those observations/opinions. Maybe I am inpatient, but I am not
happy to spend time from my life to wait for a phone having done some
trivial functions. I think carrying Xwindows is the biggest mistake. I
personally encourage QT or new start with gtk on top of www.directfb.org/, so
that gtk based interfaces can be reused... By the way did anybody consider
gtk with directfb as direction? Or I am wrong and the bottleneck is not
really Xwindows?

About the phone's price: you may find for equivalent of 200 euros the
glofiish eten m800, and there is a port of openmoko kernel etc (*gnufiish*.org/
) The eten m800 has a decent keyboard, and this weekend I booted a debian
distro. Honestly screen and filesystem on the sd card seem to be a bit
faster... If I have time I will do some I/O measurement.

Well my plan is to have a vim phone top of directfb console with a
keyboard... that will do all the trick... you can have then very fast phone
book, todo list etc. ... al in one file :) .. is anybody interested in this
particular approach ? :) (it is not a joke, but myself I am smiling about
the idea..)


regards
Mobiphil




On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Ben Wong wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Joerg Lippmann
> wrote:
> >> > Then the Freerunner is not for you.
> >> > It may sound harsh, but it's definitely *not* suitable for daily use.
> >> > Period.
> >>
> >> I must respectfully disagree with Joerg's advice to you.  [...]
>
> > OK, maybe I should explain. My mail should not be taken as FUD.
>
> I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought Joerg's message was
> FUD.  I think calling "FUD" can too often be an ad hominem attack.
> Although I disagree with some of Joerg's statements, it's clear that
> he's trying to help and is being honest about the Freerunner's value
> to him, personally.
>
> I want to thank Joerg for taking the time to give a clear list of
> reasons why a person might consider the Freerunner unsuitable as a
> phone.  I think it'd be helpful if these and other points were put on
> the wiki so that potential buyers can see the arguments against the
> Freerunner, and what the community response is.  (E.g., Solved?
> Kludged?  In progress?  Unfixable?)
>
> --Ben
>
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Ben Wong]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Joerg Lippmann wrote:
>> > Then the Freerunner is not for you.
>> > It may sound harsh, but it's definitely *not* suitable for daily use.
>> > Period.
>>
>> I must respectfully disagree with Joerg's advice to you.  [...]

> OK, maybe I should explain. My mail should not be taken as FUD.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought Joerg's message was
FUD.  I think calling "FUD" can too often be an ad hominem attack.
Although I disagree with some of Joerg's statements, it's clear that
he's trying to help and is being honest about the Freerunner's value
to him, personally.

I want to thank Joerg for taking the time to give a clear list of
reasons why a person might consider the Freerunner unsuitable as a
phone.  I think it'd be helpful if these and other points were put on
the wiki so that potential buyers can see the arguments against the
Freerunner, and what the community response is.  (E.g., Solved?
Kludged?  In progress?  Unfixable?)

--Ben

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Timo Jyrinki]

2009/6/20 Ben Wong :
> I must respectfully disagree with Joerg's advice to you.  There are
> flaws, including the ones Joerg points out, but they do not
> necessarily make the Freeruner unsuitable as a daily phone.

Agreed. FreeRunner is my only phone as well.

> The sound quality is "terrible" according to Joerg, but that has not
> been my experience.  Perhaps I'm just lucky, having bought a later
> model unit,

I've one from the first batches (GTA02a5), nothing wrong with sound
after the buzz fix. I believe that's just either a rumor based on the
buzz problems of the past or wrong default ALSA settings (current SHR,
Om2009, Debian I believe should be better than before).

It's completely correct to say Neo is still not for everyone, but it
is also likewise correct to say it's very usable for day-to-day phone
usage for some people.

It's also possible to "leave it as is" if one doesn't want to tweak /
hack it for a while. In the winter I think I didn't touch anything
from ca. December to late February, just used it. I had my tweaked
Om2008.12 back then. Meanwhile, Om2009 looks like quite usable
out-of-the-box already - I've it as a dual-boot together with Debian
which I use mainly, and Om2009 is just simply usable. The latest test
version seems to offer quite a bit of flexibility as well if one
enables the "serenity" theme from the display settings menu.

-Timo

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[arne anka]

i use it for about a year now as sole phone, after some weeks with 2007.X  
i installed debian with fso (a kind of distri you forgot to metion, too).

> - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls.

no problem for month now.

> - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls.

most if not all vibrators i have known i cellphones were _way_ weaker --  
most notably the treo650's, which made me lose more calls than the fr  
until now.

> - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors.

no problem here.

> - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade.

-no problem here

> - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting  
> the
> device

experienced tha a long time ago, imo at least in fso that is fixed.

> - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this  
> depends
> on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the  
> device did
> not suspend due to something crashing)


dunno, what you mean by "couple of hours", i get at least 48h standby,  
crashing and leaving th fr in a unsuable state happens every couple of  
month. i say, that's a rate other devices have too.

> - Sometimes I cannot access the phonebook (Android, SHR)

no problem here, but i use zhone and tweaked it to read not from sim but  
vcf file.

> - Wifi does not work reliably and it takes a long time to connect.

true

> - The device/software is terribly slow. How fast was even the oldest  
> palm in comparison!


compared with a plam, that's true -- but then, the palms were never able  
to do multi tasking.

> - the on-screen keyboards are all terrible for finger-typing. I liked  
> the one from QTe, but you have to install german wordlists by hand. Also  
> it was
> impractical to switch upper/lowercase. Best solution would be to use  
> landscape automatically.

no problems here, i use matchbox-keyboard, which is sufficient for my  
needs. and i am no friend of completion either.

> - Even simple tasks like inserting the number of the caller into the
> addressbook is sometimes impossible or very complicated.

far to general -- what software/distribution are you talking about?

> - The alarm clock does not work reliably.

don't know, i never used them. in the beginning there were no working  
alarms and i bought a little alarm clock, which is the only use i have for  
alarms anyway.

> - When the battery is completely empty, it takes ages to reload the  
> phone and you're not able to turn it on even when plugged in.

not more than about 1h -- after that the fr is able to boot and you can  
access it.

> - You cannot sync dates or even contacts, PIM-functions are virtually  
> non-existent.

ever checked avaliable sw repos? debian has all kinds of sw available and  
thus even pim, the integration with other apps (namely calling/sms) is  
indeed missing so far.
and with those apps you can sync the same way you would eg a laptop's pim  
with a desktop's

> (And I did not mention nice things like video-playback, a good  
> MP3-Player, voice-notes, a nice email-Interface or a feed-aggregator...)

see above. if you can't find apps for non-debian distris, it's most likely  
because of the fact that no one missed the really so far and cared to  
create them. i for one don't miss those.

i don't say (like you do) "it is ready. period", but i say "it is ready  
for _me_ and sufficiently fits _my_ needs. period."

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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Vasco Nevoa]

Works for me too! :D

It is my only phone for almost a year now.
Yes, it needs A LOT of attention and tweaking for about 3 months until 
you get it "just right" for yourself, but after that it's "good enough" 
as a phone and GPS, and a pretty good PDA. And yes, the screen is not 
bright enough, and the earpiece not loud enough, and the vibrator not 
strong enough, and the audio/DSP is not perfectly tweaked yet (still 
some people complain in calls); but these are minor complaints when you 
think about all the freedom you get in installing anything you want, to 
use it in ways no other device lets you...

Things I still miss: working out-of-the-box bluetooth integration  
(headsets, PAN), a rock-solid GPRS and Wifi experience (still unstable 
with some kinds of network and encription), and above all, a rock-solid 
kernel.
Some people will, of course, dearly miss the 2D and 3D acceleration 
capabilities that the Glamo chip still does not have active (and 
apparently will never have). But I don't use the FR as a jukebox, so it 
doesn't affect me.

The kernel is, in my opinion, the area where OM (the company) has failed 
more spectacularly; I've never had a kernel that does everything well at 
the same time, and it certainly has passed enough development and 
testing time for that to happen. For example, it is common to have a 
kernel revision that does at least one of these things:
- crash (panic or silent lockup) on wakeup, making you lose calls - 
fortunately very sporadically, about once a month or less;
- ruin networking (drop GPRS or WIFI packets), making a connection stall 
mysteriously;
- corrupt the screen data (random noise in framebuffer) - also very 
sporadic, fortunately;
- make the FR incompatible with Windows boxes (some people need this at 
work, you know?);
- some minor hardware not working, like accelerometers;
Yes, I know that most of this stuff is hard to debug, but that's the 
kind of thing an embedded products company does: it secures the kernel 
quality first and foremost. It's all water under the bridge, now that 
the FR is strictly "community", but in my view this is what has 
prevented the device from being a world-class bedrock for VARs and 
tinkerers and inventors and anyone with and interest in FLOSS phones... 
I think that if the kernel was rock-solid and stable, people wouldn't 
care so much about "which distro works?" - the hardware would always 
"just work", and the distro would be just a matter of taste and "fitness 
for a purpose". Get the kernel right, and you have a winner.

jeremy jozwik escreveu:
> works for me too : )
>
> actually, i really like the thing. just with the screen was not 
> recessed into the shell.
> and ffalarms works great for me.
>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Michal Brzozowski  > wrote:
>
> 2009/6/20 Joerg Lippmann  >
>
>
> OK, maybe I should explain.
>
> My mail should not be taken as FUD. I have a freerunner since
> it came out a
> year ago and - being a linux user since 1994 - I was prepared
> to get something
> rough and unfinished. But I hoped that it would one day be
> sufficient to replace
> first my phone, then my Palm Tungsten C and maybe my
> Etrex-GPS. It does neither
> in a satisfactory way.
>
>
> You're spreading a lot of misinformation. Since you might
> influence someone's decision about buying the FR, I'll address
> those points with which I completely disagree (about the rest I
> could argue). 
>  
>
>
> I used it for about year now, installed this and that distro
> and during that
> time I defended all the shortcomings as being a
> work-in-progress and a
> community effort. But all in all I cannot recommend it to
> anyone as a daily
> phone. Here's why:
>
> - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls.
>
>
> The wake up time is about 2 to 2.5 seconds. Usually small enough
> for picking up the call quickly.
>  
>
>
> - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls.
> - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors.
>
>
> Depends on a particular mixer setting. I could get one that's good
> enough for me (found a link on the wiki)
>  
>
>
> - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade.
> - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after
> restarting the
> device
> - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls
> (this depends
> on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in
> which the device did
> not suspend due to something crashing)
>
>
> With most distros you get ~48h of suspend time with the GSM
> running. Whether the distro you choose crashes a lot or not
> depends on your luck and ability to chose the right

Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[jeremy jozwik]

works for me too : )

actually, i really like the thing. just with the screen was not recessed
into the shell.
and ffalarms works great for me.

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Michal Brzozowski wrote:

> 2009/6/20 Joerg Lippmann 
>
>>
>> OK, maybe I should explain.
>>
>> My mail should not be taken as FUD. I have a freerunner since it came out
>> a
>> year ago and - being a linux user since 1994 - I was prepared to get
>> something
>> rough and unfinished. But I hoped that it would one day be sufficient to
>> replace
>> first my phone, then my Palm Tungsten C and maybe my Etrex-GPS. It does
>> neither
>> in a satisfactory way.
>
>
> You're spreading a lot of misinformation. Since you might influence
> someone's decision about buying the FR, I'll address those points with which
> I completely disagree (about the rest I could argue).
>
>
>>
>> I used it for about year now, installed this and that distro and during
>> that
>> time I defended all the shortcomings as being a work-in-progress and a
>> community effort. But all in all I cannot recommend it to anyone as a
>> daily
>> phone. Here's why:
>>
>> - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls.
>
>
> The wake up time is about 2 to 2.5 seconds. Usually small enough for
> picking up the call quickly.
>
>
>>
>> - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls.
>> - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors.
>
>
> Depends on a particular mixer setting. I could get one that's good enough
> for me (found a link on the wiki)
>
>
>>
>> - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade.
>> - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting the
>> device
>> - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this
>> depends
>> on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the device
>> did
>> not suspend due to something crashing)
>
>
> With most distros you get ~48h of suspend time with the GSM running.
> Whether the distro you choose crashes a lot or not depends on your luck and
> ability to chose the right distro and version (release, testing, unstable).
> But agree that most of them crash occasionally, although I don't see how
> this influences battery life (just restart the device)
>
>
>> - Sometimes I cannot access the phonebook (Android, SHR)
>> - Wifi does not work reliably and it takes a long time to connect.
>> - The device/software is terribly slow. How fast was even the oldest palm
>> in
>> comparison!
>
>
> There is a ton of software, and some of it is slow, some of it is fast. The
> device itself is pretty fast for a phone I would say.
>
>
>>
>> - the on-screen keyboards are all terrible for finger-typing. I liked the
>> one
>> from QTe, but you have to install german wordlists by hand. Also it was
>> impractical to switch upper/lowercase. Best solution would be to use
>> landscape
>> automatically.
>
>
> Then you haven't tried the illume predictive keyboard. It's better for
> typing sms with your finger than anything else I've seen. Certainly 10x
> faster than a phone without a touchscreen.
>
>
>>
>> - Even simple tasks like inserting the number of the caller into the
>> addressbook is sometimes impossible or very complicated.
>> (- Many people I called complained about terrible buzz, but I hope to get
>> the
>> fix soon)
>
>
> You can buy a buzz-fixed FR.
>
>
>>
>> - The alarm clock does not work reliably.
>> - When the battery is completely empty, it takes ages to reload the phone
>> and
>> you're not able to turn it on even when plugged in.
>
>
> I think it takes a few hours to reload it. The problem with starting on an
> empty battery have been fixed in recent devices I think.
>
>
>>
>> - You cannot sync dates or even contacts, PIM-functions are virtually non-
>> existent.
>>
>> (And I did not mention nice things like video-playback, a good MP3-Player,
>> voice-notes, a nice email-Interface or a feed-aggregator...)
>>
>> Granted, most things depend on the distro you're using. But neither is
>> really
>> good:
>>
>> OM: 2007: very stripped down, although I liked the simple interface.
>
>
> That distro is 2.5 years old! :-)
>
>
>>
>>
>> QTe: Overall quite OK, but no Sync, no working wifi, no usable browser, no
>> GPRS, no usable GPS-Application
>>
>> SHR: good battery life when not crashing. some bad design decisions
>> (animations are useless on this phone), slow (especially the setup-menus
>> and
>> finger-scrolling), ugly phone-function, contacts crash very often,
>> tangogps is
>> working, many SMS and calls lost. Keyboard either english-only or only
>> usable
>> with a pen.
>
>
> The slowness can be fixed by tweaking some settings in illume gui.
>
> Keyboard english-only? Changing the dictionary to another language is as
> simple as downloading a word list into the FR.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Android: Best of the bunch so far. But volume too low, missing keyboard in
>> stable versions (cupcake one looks better, but is not stable enough at the
>> moment)
>
>
> Well, you

Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Michal Brzozowski]

2009/6/20 Joerg Lippmann 

>
> OK, maybe I should explain.
>
> My mail should not be taken as FUD. I have a freerunner since it came out a
> year ago and - being a linux user since 1994 - I was prepared to get
> something
> rough and unfinished. But I hoped that it would one day be sufficient to
> replace
> first my phone, then my Palm Tungsten C and maybe my Etrex-GPS. It does
> neither
> in a satisfactory way.


You're spreading a lot of misinformation. Since you might influence
someone's decision about buying the FR, I'll address those points with which
I completely disagree (about the rest I could argue).


>
> I used it for about year now, installed this and that distro and during
> that
> time I defended all the shortcomings as being a work-in-progress and a
> community effort. But all in all I cannot recommend it to anyone as a daily
> phone. Here's why:
>
> - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls.


The wake up time is about 2 to 2.5 seconds. Usually small enough for picking
up the call quickly.


>
> - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls.
> - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors.


Depends on a particular mixer setting. I could get one that's good enough
for me (found a link on the wiki)


>
> - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade.
> - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting the
> device
> - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this
> depends
> on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the device
> did
> not suspend due to something crashing)


With most distros you get ~48h of suspend time with the GSM running. Whether
the distro you choose crashes a lot or not depends on your luck and ability
to chose the right distro and version (release, testing, unstable). But
agree that most of them crash occasionally, although I don't see how this
influences battery life (just restart the device)


> - Sometimes I cannot access the phonebook (Android, SHR)
> - Wifi does not work reliably and it takes a long time to connect.
> - The device/software is terribly slow. How fast was even the oldest palm
> in
> comparison!


There is a ton of software, and some of it is slow, some of it is fast. The
device itself is pretty fast for a phone I would say.


>
> - the on-screen keyboards are all terrible for finger-typing. I liked the
> one
> from QTe, but you have to install german wordlists by hand. Also it was
> impractical to switch upper/lowercase. Best solution would be to use
> landscape
> automatically.


Then you haven't tried the illume predictive keyboard. It's better for
typing sms with your finger than anything else I've seen. Certainly 10x
faster than a phone without a touchscreen.


>
> - Even simple tasks like inserting the number of the caller into the
> addressbook is sometimes impossible or very complicated.
> (- Many people I called complained about terrible buzz, but I hope to get
> the
> fix soon)


You can buy a buzz-fixed FR.


>
> - The alarm clock does not work reliably.
> - When the battery is completely empty, it takes ages to reload the phone
> and
> you're not able to turn it on even when plugged in.


I think it takes a few hours to reload it. The problem with starting on an
empty battery have been fixed in recent devices I think.


>
> - You cannot sync dates or even contacts, PIM-functions are virtually non-
> existent.
>
> (And I did not mention nice things like video-playback, a good MP3-Player,
> voice-notes, a nice email-Interface or a feed-aggregator...)
>
> Granted, most things depend on the distro you're using. But neither is
> really
> good:
>
> OM: 2007: very stripped down, although I liked the simple interface.


That distro is 2.5 years old! :-)


>
>
> QTe: Overall quite OK, but no Sync, no working wifi, no usable browser, no
> GPRS, no usable GPS-Application
>
> SHR: good battery life when not crashing. some bad design decisions
> (animations are useless on this phone), slow (especially the setup-menus
> and
> finger-scrolling), ugly phone-function, contacts crash very often, tangogps
> is
> working, many SMS and calls lost. Keyboard either english-only or only
> usable
> with a pen.


The slowness can be fixed by tweaking some settings in illume gui.

Keyboard english-only? Changing the dictionary to another language is as
simple as downloading a word list into the FR.


>
>
> Android: Best of the bunch so far. But volume too low, missing keyboard in
> stable versions (cupcake one looks better, but is not stable enough at the
> moment)


Well, you definitely forgot about Om2008 and 2009.


>
>
> Please, developers, don't feel like I want to thrash your work. It's just
> not
> ready for primetime, yet. I really like the design and the hires screen. It
> could make a cool device when it would work...
>

I will repeat the famous words, "works for me."  Just give it some love.
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Re: Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Iain B. FIndleton]

Most of Joerg's comments reflect the experience I have had. On the other 
hand, its a GREAT portable office. You can run just about any Linux 
application on it and with an 8Gbyte microSD card, carry around a lot of 
stuff easily in your pocket. Just plug it into any old PC via WIFI, 
Bluetooth or USB (Preferred) and you are away. Simply great for a 
consulting lifestyle.

It also receives and sends phone calls, although it generates too much 
heat to carry about in your pocket for that application.

Joerg Lippmann wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Joerg Lippmann 
>> 
> wrote:
>   
>>> Then the Freerunner is not for you.
>>> It may sound harsh, but it's definitely *not* suitable for daily use.
>>> Period.
>>>   
>> Brolin,
>>
>> I must respectfully disagree with Joerg's advice to you.  There are
>> flaws, including the ones Joerg points out, but they do not
>> necessarily make the Freeruner unsuitable as a daily phone.  I think
>> it depends on the person.  I use mine daily as my only phone and it
>> works well for me.  From your description of yourself, I suspect you
>> would be happy with a Freerunner as well, as long as you don't expect
>> it to do everything you want out of the box.
>> 
>
> OK, maybe I should explain. 
>
> My mail should not be taken as FUD. I have a freerunner since it came out a 
> year ago and - being a linux user since 1994 - I was prepared to get 
> something 
> rough and unfinished. But I hoped that it would one day be sufficient to 
> replace 
> first my phone, then my Palm Tungsten C and maybe my Etrex-GPS. It does 
> neither 
> in a satisfactory way.
>
> I used it for about year now, installed this and that distro and during that 
> time I defended all the shortcomings as being a work-in-progress and a 
> community effort. But all in all I cannot recommend it to anyone as a daily 
> phone. Here's why:
>
> - The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls.
> - The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls.
> - The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors.
> - The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade.
> - I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting the 
> device
> - The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this depends 
> on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the device 
> did 
> not suspend due to something crashing)
> - Sometimes I cannot access the phonebook (Android, SHR)
> - Wifi does not work reliably and it takes a long time to connect.
> - The device/software is terribly slow. How fast was even the oldest palm in 
> comparison!
> - the on-screen keyboards are all terrible for finger-typing. I liked the one 
> from QTe, but you have to install german wordlists by hand. Also it was 
> impractical to switch upper/lowercase. Best solution would be to use 
> landscape 
> automatically. 
> - Even simple tasks like inserting the number of the caller into the 
> addressbook is sometimes impossible or very complicated.
> (- Many people I called complained about terrible buzz, but I hope to get the 
> fix soon)
> - The alarm clock does not work reliably.
> - When the battery is completely empty, it takes ages to reload the phone and 
> you're not able to turn it on even when plugged in.
> - You cannot sync dates or even contacts, PIM-functions are virtually non-
> existent.
>
> (And I did not mention nice things like video-playback, a good MP3-Player, 
> voice-notes, a nice email-Interface or a feed-aggregator...)
>
> Granted, most things depend on the distro you're using. But neither is really 
> good:
>
> OM: 2007: very stripped down, although I liked the simple interface.
>
> QTe: Overall quite OK, but no Sync, no working wifi, no usable browser, no 
> GPRS, no usable GPS-Application
>
> SHR: good battery life when not crashing. some bad design decisions 
> (animations are useless on this phone), slow (especially the setup-menus and 
> finger-scrolling), ugly phone-function, contacts crash very often, tangogps 
> is 
> working, many SMS and calls lost. Keyboard either english-only or only usable 
> with a pen.
>
> Android: Best of the bunch so far. But volume too low, missing keyboard in 
> stable versions (cupcake one looks better, but is not stable enough at the 
> moment)
>
> I'm trying to honour the work of the many developers, but in my book, this is 
> still not a working everyday phone. Let alone a smartphone.
>
>
> Today, I slipped my SIM-card back into my old Siemens M55. What an 
> experience: 
> I got every call immediatly! I could hear what the other side was talking! I 
> could send an SMS in a few seconds without problems and received an answer! I 
> could also insert the number from a caller directly into my addressbook. You 
> should try it once.
>
> My freerunner will stay in my drawer. Maybe when Android works perfectly, I 
> will give it another try.
>
> Am Samstag 20 Juni 2009 schrieb Ben Wong:
>
>   
>> The sound quality is "terri

Why one cannot recommend the freerunner as a daily phone (was Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?)

[Joerg Lippmann]

> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Joerg Lippmann 
wrote:
> > Then the Freerunner is not for you.
> > It may sound harsh, but it's definitely *not* suitable for daily use.
> > Period.
>
> Brolin,
>
> I must respectfully disagree with Joerg's advice to you.  There are
> flaws, including the ones Joerg points out, but they do not
> necessarily make the Freeruner unsuitable as a daily phone.  I think
> it depends on the person.  I use mine daily as my only phone and it
> works well for me.  From your description of yourself, I suspect you
> would be happy with a Freerunner as well, as long as you don't expect
> it to do everything you want out of the box.

OK, maybe I should explain. 

My mail should not be taken as FUD. I have a freerunner since it came out a 
year ago and - being a linux user since 1994 - I was prepared to get something 
rough and unfinished. But I hoped that it would one day be sufficient to 
replace 
first my phone, then my Palm Tungsten C and maybe my Etrex-GPS. It does neither 
in a satisfactory way.

I used it for about year now, installed this and that distro and during that 
time I defended all the shortcomings as being a work-in-progress and a 
community effort. But all in all I cannot recommend it to anyone as a daily 
phone. Here's why:

- The device wakes up too slowly, I lost some calls.
- The vibrator is too weak, I missed more calls.
- The volume is way to low, You can really only use it indoors.
- The Display is too dark for sunny days, even in the shade.
- I lost many SMS. I eventually receiced most of them after restarting the 
device
- The battery lasts only a few hours, again, I lost many calls (this depends 
on the distro. But even with a »good« one, I had cases in which the device did 
not suspend due to something crashing)
- Sometimes I cannot access the phonebook (Android, SHR)
- Wifi does not work reliably and it takes a long time to connect.
- The device/software is terribly slow. How fast was even the oldest palm in 
comparison!
- the on-screen keyboards are all terrible for finger-typing. I liked the one 
from QTe, but you have to install german wordlists by hand. Also it was 
impractical to switch upper/lowercase. Best solution would be to use landscape 
automatically. 
- Even simple tasks like inserting the number of the caller into the 
addressbook is sometimes impossible or very complicated.
(- Many people I called complained about terrible buzz, but I hope to get the 
fix soon)
- The alarm clock does not work reliably.
- When the battery is completely empty, it takes ages to reload the phone and 
you're not able to turn it on even when plugged in.
- You cannot sync dates or even contacts, PIM-functions are virtually non-
existent.

(And I did not mention nice things like video-playback, a good MP3-Player, 
voice-notes, a nice email-Interface or a feed-aggregator...)

Granted, most things depend on the distro you're using. But neither is really 
good:

OM: 2007: very stripped down, although I liked the simple interface.

QTe: Overall quite OK, but no Sync, no working wifi, no usable browser, no 
GPRS, no usable GPS-Application

SHR: good battery life when not crashing. some bad design decisions 
(animations are useless on this phone), slow (especially the setup-menus and 
finger-scrolling), ugly phone-function, contacts crash very often, tangogps is 
working, many SMS and calls lost. Keyboard either english-only or only usable 
with a pen.

Android: Best of the bunch so far. But volume too low, missing keyboard in 
stable versions (cupcake one looks better, but is not stable enough at the 
moment)

I'm trying to honour the work of the many developers, but in my book, this is 
still not a working everyday phone. Let alone a smartphone.


Today, I slipped my SIM-card back into my old Siemens M55. What an experience: 
I got every call immediatly! I could hear what the other side was talking! I 
could send an SMS in a few seconds without problems and received an answer! I 
could also insert the number from a caller directly into my addressbook. You 
should try it once.

My freerunner will stay in my drawer. Maybe when Android works perfectly, I 
will give it another try.

Am Samstag 20 Juni 2009 schrieb Ben Wong:

> The sound quality is "terrible" according to Joerg, but that has not

It's just way too low. I can only unterstand the other side well, when I'm in 
a quiet place. While with a real phone you can talk on the street or in a car, 
with the freerunner I can't. I tried also other alsa-state-files and fiddled 
myself, but without real success.

> Joerg also mentioned that the device is "lame".  I'm not quite sure
> what he means. 

Sorry, I meant "slow". See above.

Please, developers, don't feel like I want to thrash your work. It's just not 
ready for primetime, yet. I really like the design and the hires screen. It 
could make a cool device when it would work...

j�...@home
-- 
We will bring freedom and Leberwurst to the Welt, ob sie will oder nicht.

_

Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[jeremy jozwik]

very nice. thank you

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 12:02 AM, David Ford  wrote:

> Here they are, please note if this email gets munged, the mdbus line
> ending in the .txt is one one line:
>
> r...@nibbly-bits:~# cat backup_contacts.sh
> #!/bin/sh
> d=$(date +%Y.%m.%d-%H%M)
> mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ogsmd /org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device
> org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM.RetrievePhonebook 'contacts' > contacts-$d.txt
>
> r...@nibbly-bits:~# cat backup_messages.sh
> #!/bin/sh
> d=$(date +%Y.%m.%d-%H%M)
> mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ogsmd /org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device
> org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM.RetrieveMessagebook 'all' > messages-$d.txt
>
> -david
>
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[arne anka]

> I thought the SMS messages were stored on the phone instead of the SIM.

depends. most phones i know allowed, to select where to store the messages.

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[David Ford]

Here they are, please note if this email gets munged, the mdbus line 
ending in the .txt is one one line:

r...@nibbly-bits:~# cat backup_contacts.sh
#!/bin/sh
d=$(date +%Y.%m.%d-%H%M)
mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ogsmd /org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device 
org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM.RetrievePhonebook 'contacts' > contacts-$d.txt

r...@nibbly-bits:~# cat backup_messages.sh
#!/bin/sh
d=$(date +%Y.%m.%d-%H%M)
mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ogsmd /org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device 
org.freesmartphone.GSM.SIM.RetrieveMessagebook 'all' > messages-$d.txt

-david

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Stephen LePage]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Brolin Empey  wrote:

> 2009/6/19 Ben Wong 
>
>> The one thing that jumps out at me in your request, Brolin, is keeping
>> your SMS messages on the microSD card instead of the SIM.  I know that
>> the SHR distribution, which I'm using, stores everything on the SIM by
>> default.  Perhaps David Ford's improved SMS app will do what you want?
>>  Alternatively, if you are happy with simply archiving your SMS to a
>> text file, David Ford sent out a one line script to do so about a
>> month ago.  (I can dig it up if you need.)
>
>
> >>I thought the SMS messages were stored on the phone instead of the SIM.
> My dad gave me the Nokia 6103b I am currently using after he upgraded to a
> newer Samsung phone.  The Nokia 6103b >>still contained my dad’s SMS
> messages even though I was using the phone with my SIM.  Maybe some phones
> store the SMS messages on the phone while others store them on the SIM?
>
>>
>> > 2009/6/17 David Murrell 
>> >>Fundamentally, at this point, my Openmoko Freerunner fails the Not
>> >>Interested in Technology - Significant Other Acceptance Procedure,
>> >>otherwise known NIT-SOAP.
>>
>> > That is not a problem for me because I am single. :)
>>
>> P.S. You may not be single for long.  One little known feature of the
>> Freerunner is that it is an Ultra-Powerful Magnet for Attractive
>> People.  They will sidle up to you and exclaim, "OMG!  Is that a
>> Debian box in your pocket?!"  ;-)
>
>
> >>“Is that some fscking hardware in your pants, or are you just happy to
> see me?!”
> >>“Can you (touch|finger|mount|grep|unzip|fsck) me with that hardware in
> your pants?” :D
>
> >>I wish. :P
>
> Can't comment to much on phone functionality, but my experience with it was
> really starting to get good with om2009 and when I was using SHR it seemed
> to be good and a lot of updates have happened since I last used SHR. With
> regards to contacts being stored I don't think any distributions store
> information on the mSD yet.(Please feel free to correct me if i;m wrong).


As regards to the phone's ability to pick up women, it is a unique phone
that fairly few people have and has sparked a few conversations with
females. Phones are starting to become a fashion statement and in my opinion
Iphone=abercrombie and fitch, Freerunner=some unique item you got from the
fashion district in Milan.

>
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>


-- 
Stephen LePage
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Brolin Empey]

2009/6/19 Ben Wong 

> The one thing that jumps out at me in your request, Brolin, is keeping
> your SMS messages on the microSD card instead of the SIM.  I know that
> the SHR distribution, which I'm using, stores everything on the SIM by
> default.  Perhaps David Ford's improved SMS app will do what you want?
>  Alternatively, if you are happy with simply archiving your SMS to a
> text file, David Ford sent out a one line script to do so about a
> month ago.  (I can dig it up if you need.)


I thought the SMS messages were stored on the phone instead of the SIM.  My
dad gave me the Nokia 6103b I am currently using after he upgraded to a
newer Samsung phone.  The Nokia 6103b still contained my dad’s SMS messages
even though I was using the phone with my SIM.  Maybe some phones store the
SMS messages on the phone while others store them on the SIM?

>
> > 2009/6/17 David Murrell 
> >>Fundamentally, at this point, my Openmoko Freerunner fails the Not
> >>Interested in Technology - Significant Other Acceptance Procedure,
> >>otherwise known NIT-SOAP.
>
> > That is not a problem for me because I am single. :)
>
> P.S. You may not be single for long.  One little known feature of the
> Freerunner is that it is an Ultra-Powerful Magnet for Attractive
> People.  They will sidle up to you and exclaim, "OMG!  Is that a
> Debian box in your pocket?!"  ;-)


“Is that some fscking hardware in your pants, or are you just happy to see
me?!”
“Can you (touch|finger|mount|grep|unzip|fsck) me with that hardware in your
pants?” :D

I wish. :P

[image: Close] Read more >>   Options >>
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[jeremy jozwik]

best. email. yet.

you should link that sms script. perhaps it can be modified to siphon off
the contacts too

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Ben Wong wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Joerg Lippmann
> wrote:
>
> > Then the Freerunner is not for you.
> > It may sound harsh, but it's definitely *not* suitable for daily use.
> Period.
>
> Brolin,
>
> I must respectfully disagree with Joerg's advice to you.  There are
> flaws, including the ones Joerg points out, but they do not
> necessarily make the Freeruner unsuitable as a daily phone.  I think
> it depends on the person.  I use mine daily as my only phone and it
> works well for me.  From your description of yourself, I suspect you
> would be happy with a Freerunner as well, as long as you don't expect
> it to do everything you want out of the box.
>
> Battery life?  Yes, Joerg is correct that it's mediocre.  I do charge
> it every night, but that's not a big deal, especially since it charges
> off of any USB port.
>
> The sound quality is "terrible" according to Joerg, but that has not
> been my experience.  Perhaps I'm just lucky, having bought a later
> model unit, but people have actually been telling me how crystal clear
> I sound compared to my old Samsung phone.  The one thing I don't like
> about the sound on the Freerunner is that the default volume is too
> low, but it's not been enough of a problem for me to even look into
> how to increase it.
>
> Joerg also mentioned that the device is "lame".  I'm not quite sure
> what he means.  The Freerunner is certainly lacking features that some
> proprietary phones boast, such as a multitouch interface and 3G/4G
> data transfer.  Since I live in a big city and have WiFi nearly
> everywhere I go, the lack of 3G is not a disadvantage for me.  And
> multitouch?  Well, somehow I survive without.
>
> The one thing that jumps out at me in your request, Brolin, is keeping
> your SMS messages on the microSD card instead of the SIM.  I know that
> the SHR distribution, which I'm using, stores everything on the SIM by
> default.  Perhaps David Ford's improved SMS app will do what you want?
>  Alternatively, if you are happy with simply archiving your SMS to a
> text file, David Ford sent out a one line script to do so about a
> month ago.  (I can dig it up if you need.)
>
> --Ben
>
>
> > 2009/6/17 David Murrell 
> >>Fundamentally, at this point, my Openmoko Freerunner fails the Not
> >>Interested in Technology - Significant Other Acceptance Procedure,
> >>otherwise known NIT-SOAP.
>
> > That is not a problem for me because I am single. :)
>
> P.S. You may not be single for long.  One little known feature of the
> Freerunner is that it is an Ultra-Powerful Magnet for Attractive
> People.  They will sidle up to you and exclaim, "OMG!  Is that a
> Debian box in your pocket?!"  ;-)
>
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Ben Wong]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Joerg Lippmann wrote:

> Then the Freerunner is not for you.
> It may sound harsh, but it's definitely *not* suitable for daily use. Period.

Brolin,

I must respectfully disagree with Joerg's advice to you.  There are
flaws, including the ones Joerg points out, but they do not
necessarily make the Freeruner unsuitable as a daily phone.  I think
it depends on the person.  I use mine daily as my only phone and it
works well for me.  From your description of yourself, I suspect you
would be happy with a Freerunner as well, as long as you don't expect
it to do everything you want out of the box.

Battery life?  Yes, Joerg is correct that it's mediocre.  I do charge
it every night, but that's not a big deal, especially since it charges
off of any USB port.

The sound quality is "terrible" according to Joerg, but that has not
been my experience.  Perhaps I'm just lucky, having bought a later
model unit, but people have actually been telling me how crystal clear
I sound compared to my old Samsung phone.  The one thing I don't like
about the sound on the Freerunner is that the default volume is too
low, but it's not been enough of a problem for me to even look into
how to increase it.

Joerg also mentioned that the device is "lame".  I'm not quite sure
what he means.  The Freerunner is certainly lacking features that some
proprietary phones boast, such as a multitouch interface and 3G/4G
data transfer.  Since I live in a big city and have WiFi nearly
everywhere I go, the lack of 3G is not a disadvantage for me.  And
multitouch?  Well, somehow I survive without.

The one thing that jumps out at me in your request, Brolin, is keeping
your SMS messages on the microSD card instead of the SIM.  I know that
the SHR distribution, which I'm using, stores everything on the SIM by
default.  Perhaps David Ford's improved SMS app will do what you want?
 Alternatively, if you are happy with simply archiving your SMS to a
text file, David Ford sent out a one line script to do so about a
month ago.  (I can dig it up if you need.)

--Ben


> 2009/6/17 David Murrell 
>>Fundamentally, at this point, my Openmoko Freerunner fails the Not
>>Interested in Technology - Significant Other Acceptance Procedure,
>>otherwise known NIT-SOAP.

> That is not a problem for me because I am single. :)

P.S. You may not be single for long.  One little known feature of the
Freerunner is that it is an Ultra-Powerful Magnet for Attractive
People.  They will sidle up to you and exclaim, "OMG!  Is that a
Debian box in your pocket?!"  ;-)

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Paul Fertser]

Robin Paulson  writes:
> 2009/6/19 Laszlo KREKACS :
>> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Al Johnson
>> > You can even talk on the phone when FR is suspended! (yes, this is
>> > because Calypso, the GSM chip is separated from the main processor)> 
>> >  wrote:
>>>
>>> I was going to say it was a bug because having the audio chip powered during
>>> suspend is a power leak. It sounds like this has been fixed.
>>>
>>
>> Yepp, but the phone could be clever enough, that if it suspends during
>> the call, it leaves
>> the audio chip powered.
>
> this (leaving the audio powered on) would be very nice to have as a
> configurable option. someone who takes lots of incoming calls (say a
> service tech), could well benefit from it.

Nice idea, would you please file a ticket on OM trac as a wishlist to
"System Software" and set milestone to 2009-stable so it won't be
forgotten?

-- 
Be free, use free (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) software!
mailto:fercer...@gmail.com

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Robin Paulson]

2009/6/19 Laszlo KREKACS :
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Al Johnson
> > You can even talk on the phone when FR is suspended! (yes, this is
> > because Calypso, the GSM chip is separated from the main processor)> 
> >  wrote:
>>
>> I was going to say it was a bug because having the audio chip powered during
>> suspend is a power leak. It sounds like this has been fixed.
>>
>
> Yepp, but the phone could be clever enough, that if it suspends during
> the call, it leaves
> the audio chip powered.

this (leaving the audio powered on) would be very nice to have as a
configurable option. someone who takes lots of incoming calls (say a
service tech), could well benefit from it.

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Laszlo KREKACS]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Al Johnson
 wrote:
>
> I was going to say it was a bug because having the audio chip powered during
> suspend is a power leak. It sounds like this has been fixed.
>

Yepp, but the phone could be clever enough, that if it suspends during
the call, it leaves
the audio chip powered.

Laszlo

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[David Ford]

if you want an ALPHA state application, you can grab a generated tarball
of the python script and notes at:

   
https://blue-labs.org/websvn/listing.php?repname=BlueLabs+SVN&path=%2FBlueLabs%2FBlueSMS%2F#path_BlueLabs_BlueSMS_


if you want just the python script which is the only necessary part, get
it via:

https://blue-labs.org/svn/BlueLabs/BlueSMS/bluesms.py

please remember that i consider this alpha quality software.  there are
known issues, incomplete functions (MMS), and sometimes a rough edge. 
it operates via mdbus and fetches messages directly from the SIM. 
there's no integration yet with the opimd software that is being
developed.  i typically make commits one or more times a day.  if you
intend to use it, feedback is appreciated.

i think the only non-typical dependency is python-netclient which is in
(at least) the SHR unstable repository.

-david


jeremy jozwik wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 1:38 PM, David Ford  > wrote:
>
> excepting these, even though it is a developer phone, it works
> reliably.  i SMS people and places all day long. mind you, i wrote
> my own SMS app which is far more functional/featureful than the
> default.
>
> -david
>
>
> you should share.
>
> 
>
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[jeremy jozwik]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 1:38 PM, David Ford  wrote:

>  excepting these, even though it is a developer phone, it works reliably.
> i SMS people and places all day long. mind you, i wrote my own SMS app which
> is far more functional/featureful than the default.
>
> -david
>

you should share.
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[David Ford]

i beg to differ.  i -reliably- use it for text messaging and brief phone 
calls on a daily basis.


but i'm also someone that can fix most upgrade hassles on my own and if 
something isn't working right, i now know what to do to fix it.


once in a great while Xglamo crashes, once in a while enlightenment gets 
sluggish, and once in a while someone makes ophonekitd crashy.


excepting these, even though it is a developer phone, it works 
reliably.  i SMS people and places all day long. mind you, i wrote my 
own SMS app which is far more functional/featureful than the default.


-david

On 06/18/09 13:49, Joerg Lippmann wrote:

Am Donnerstag 18 Juni 2009 schrieb Brolin Empey:

   

I need all of these features:

* a *reliable* phone for SMS and brief voice calls.
 


Then the Freerunner is not for you.

It may sound harsh, but it's definitly *not* suitable for daily use. Period.
I tried OM2007, 2008, QTe, SHR, FSO, Hackable:1, Android, Android-cupcake. QT-
Extended-Improved. All are incomplete and have huge flaws. Apart from that the
battery life is mediocre at best, the device is lame and sound is terrible.

Sad but true.

j�...@home
   
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 07:14:06PM +0100, Al Johnson wrote:
> On Thursday 18 June 2009, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 04:23:34PM +0300, Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Al
> > >
> > > Johnson wrote:
> > > >> Can I still receive phone calls while the FreeRunner is suspended?
> > > >
> > > > Of course! It wouldn't be much use as a phone otherwise :-)
> > >
> > > You can even talk on the phone when FR is suspended! (yes, this is
> > > because Calypso, the GSM chip is separated from the main processor)
> >
> > Not always. Currently when it happens I loose audio. But I liked that a lot
> > in Om2008.12
> 
> I was going to say it was a bug because having the audio chip powered during 
> suspend is a power leak. It sounds like this has been fixed.

While you're talking? Are you nuts? Energy being saved while you talk? :)

> > > > Best case scenario is 160hrs standby time IIRC.
> > >
> > > 140:
> > > http://totalueberwachung.de/blog/2009/06/03/freerunner-deep-sleep-standby
> > >-time
> > >
> > > There's also now some research going on on scaling the frequency of FR
> > > CPU - it'll save another 40mW or something.. So I think we can expect
> > > the battery lifetime to slowly go up to longer than one day.
> >
> > To me it already lasts longer than one day, but one of my main uses is
> > actually as a phone :)
> 
> Agreed. 2 or 3 days isn't unusual if I treat it like my phone. Start OSM 
> logging on my bike and it's another matter!

Ok, you talk less than I do or your battery is in better shape :) I usually
get about a day and a half without charging, but also without getting to zero.

Rui

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Josh Thompson]

On Wednesday June 17, 2009, Brolin Empey wrote:
> * textual notes (so I don’t have to keep track of lots of paper notes),

I wrote pynotes:

http://projects.openmoko.org/projects/pynotes/

ipk here:
http://projects.openmoko.org/frs/download.php/746/pynotes_0.1_arm.ipk

as a replacement for Palm's Memos app.  It also includes a python script that 
can be used in conjunction with pilot-link's pilot-memos utility to import 
your memos from your palm.

I haven't gotten around to getting it up at opkg.org.  If anyone wants to do 
that, feel free.

Josh

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Al Johnson]

On Thursday 18 June 2009, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 04:23:34PM +0300, Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Al
> >
> > Johnson wrote:
> > >> Can I still receive phone calls while the FreeRunner is suspended?
> > >
> > > Of course! It wouldn't be much use as a phone otherwise :-)
> >
> > You can even talk on the phone when FR is suspended! (yes, this is
> > because Calypso, the GSM chip is separated from the main processor)
>
> Not always. Currently when it happens I loose audio. But I liked that a lot
> in Om2008.12

I was going to say it was a bug because having the audio chip powered during 
suspend is a power leak. It sounds like this has been fixed.

> > > Best case scenario is 160hrs standby time IIRC.
> >
> > 140:
> > http://totalueberwachung.de/blog/2009/06/03/freerunner-deep-sleep-standby
> >-time
> >
> > There's also now some research going on on scaling the frequency of FR
> > CPU - it'll save another 40mW or something.. So I think we can expect
> > the battery lifetime to slowly go up to longer than one day.
>
> To me it already lasts longer than one day, but one of my main uses is
> actually as a phone :)

Agreed. 2 or 3 days isn't unusual if I treat it like my phone. Start OSM 
logging on my bike and it's another matter!

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Sebastian Krzyszkowiak]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 19:49, Joerg Lippmann wrote:
> Am Donnerstag 18 Juni 2009 schrieb Brolin Empey:
>
>> I need all of these features:
>>
>> * a *reliable* phone for SMS and brief voice calls.
>
> Then the Freerunner is not for you.
>
> It may sound harsh, but it's definitly *not* suitable for daily use. Period.
> I tried OM2007, 2008, QTe, SHR, FSO, Hackable:1, Android, Android-cupcake. QT-
> Extended-Improved. All are incomplete and have huge flaws. Apart from that the
> battery life is mediocre at best, the device is lame and sound is terrible.
>
> Sad but true.

I was successfully using Om2007, and now SHR-unstable as daily phone.
Sometimes there were some glitches (sometimes very critical), but at
the moment SHR-unstable is really stable for me. FUD? FreeRunner is
not for you too? :P

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Joerg Lippmann]

Am Donnerstag 18 Juni 2009 schrieb Brolin Empey:

> I need all of these features:
>
> * a *reliable* phone for SMS and brief voice calls. 

Then the Freerunner is not for you.

It may sound harsh, but it's definitly *not* suitable for daily use. Period. 
I tried OM2007, 2008, QTe, SHR, FSO, Hackable:1, Android, Android-cupcake. QT-
Extended-Improved. All are incomplete and have huge flaws. Apart from that the 
battery life is mediocre at best, the device is lame and sound is terrible. 

Sad but true.

j�...@home
-- 
We will bring freedom and Leberwurst to the Welt, ob sie will oder nicht.

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 04:23:34PM +0300, Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Al
> Johnson wrote:
> >> Can I still receive phone calls while the FreeRunner is suspended?
> >
> > Of course! It wouldn't be much use as a phone otherwise :-)
> 
> You can even talk on the phone when FR is suspended! (yes, this is
> because Calypso, the GSM chip is separated from the main processor)

Not always. Currently when it happens I loose audio. But I liked that a lot
in Om2008.12

> > Best case scenario is 160hrs standby time IIRC.
> 
> 140: 
> http://totalueberwachung.de/blog/2009/06/03/freerunner-deep-sleep-standby-time
> 
> There's also now some research going on on scaling the frequency of FR
> CPU - it'll save another 40mW or something.. So I think we can expect
> the battery lifetime to slowly go up to longer than one day.

To me it already lasts longer than one day, but one of my main uses is
actually as a phone :)

Rui

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Risto H. Kurppa]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Al
Johnson wrote:
>> Can I still receive phone calls while the FreeRunner is suspended?
>
> Of course! It wouldn't be much use as a phone otherwise :-)

You can even talk on the phone when FR is suspended! (yes, this is
because Calypso, the GSM chip is separated from the main processor)

> Best case scenario is 160hrs standby time IIRC.

140: 
http://totalueberwachung.de/blog/2009/06/03/freerunner-deep-sleep-standby-time

There's also now some research going on on scaling the frequency of FR
CPU - it'll save another 40mW or something.. So I think we can expect
the battery lifetime to slowly go up to longer than one day.


r


-- 
| risto h. kurppa
| risto at kurppa dot fi
| http://risto.kurppa.fi

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Al Johnson]

On Thursday 18 June 2009, Brolin Empey wrote:
> 2009/6/18 arne anka 
> However, even if my Nokia enters standby mode after a few seconds of
> inactivity, this does not bother me because it is invisible to the user:
> the phone is instantly usable in its previous state, even after hours of
> inactivity.  This is much different than standby mode on a desktop computer
> with at least 1 GiB of main memory, where there is a noticeable delay when
> leaving standby mode.

Resume takes ~1s for me, and I'm using uboot which resumes more slowly than 
Qi. Autosuspend after x seconds of inactivity is configurable, so you can have 
the phone-like experience. 

> > if suspended the battery lasts about 48 hrs, maybe more. it's not that
> > great, though, but work is still going on to extend that.
>
> Can I still receive phone calls while the FreeRunner is suspended?

Of course! It wouldn't be much use as a phone otherwise :-)

> > but with the most common scenario, ie having access to a power source
> > every few hours or constantly (office), you can recharge when necessary.
>
> To be practical, this battery life is acceptable because I fit this most
> common scenario.  However, (what I have been told about) the FreeRunner’s
> battery life still seems poor compared to my Nokia, for example.

Best case scenario is 160hrs standby time IIRC. Enable bluetooth, wifi and 
GPS, keep the backlight on and you can drain the battery in ~4hrs. Not 
dissimilar to an Nokia n95, although that may not be seen as good either ;-) 
Backlighting a relatively large screen is responsible for half the current 
draw, so turning the brightness down a little and setting a short backlight 
timeout can make a big difference.

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[arne anka]

> that app looks nice, arne. do you or anyone else have an ipk for it?

i don't. but it's in debian. shouldn't be too hard, to convert, i guess.

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Brolin Empey]

2009/6/18 arne anka 

> > I never need to use suspend on my Nokia 6103b.  I do not think it even
> > has a
> > suspend mode  — at least not one the user can activate.
>
> that's the difference.
> the nokia is nothing but a phone -- and as such it's mostly suspended (or
> "standby").


I disagree.  My Nokia is much more of an embedded computer than only a
phone.  It supports multiple predefined tasks in addition to plain phone
functions, such as recording video, audio, photos, games, SMS, alarm clock,
countdown timer, stopwatch, calendar for appointments, todo lists, and so
on.  I might agree with you if we were discussing a much earlier (1990s or
even 1980s) phone, but a Series 40 Nokia phone is much more than just a
phone.  I do not have any specific examples of earlier phones because my
Nokia 6103b is my first cell phone:  I started using it in 2008.  However, I
suppose it is kind of like comparing a basic, touch-tone, corded phone to a
modern, consumer corded or cordless phone:  the basic phone truly is nothing
but a phone.  It has no display, no redial, no hold, no speakerphone, no
volume control, no speed dial, etc.  The older ones even have a real,
mechanical bell instead of an electronic “ringtone”, which is not a ring in
the original sense of a mechanical bell.  OTOH, the modern consumer corded
or cordless phone has a display with the date and time, caller ID, received
call history, speed dial, phone book, redial, hold, speakerphone, volume
control, etc.  Some can even use different ringtones for different callers.


>
> the fr otoh is a full fledged computer, offering phone functionality. you
> probably don't want your computer to go into standby after a few secs,
> won't you?


I agree that the FreeRunner is more of a general-purpose computer than a
Nokia phone, especially since the user can reimage the FreeRunner, use a
CLI, etc.

However, even if my Nokia enters standby mode after a few seconds of
inactivity, this does not bother me because it is invisible to the user:
the phone is instantly usable in its previous state, even after hours of
inactivity.  This is much different than standby mode on a desktop computer
with at least 1 GiB of main memory, where there is a noticeable delay when
leaving standby mode.


>
>
> if suspended the battery lasts about 48 hrs, maybe more. it's not that
> great, though, but work is still going on to extend that.


Can I still receive phone calls while the FreeRunner is suspended?


>
> but with the most common scenario, ie having access to a power source
> every few hours or constantly (office), you can recharge when necessary.


To be practical, this battery life is acceptable because I fit this most
common scenario.  However, (what I have been told about) the FreeRunner’s
battery life still seems poor compared to my Nokia, for example.
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Robin Paulson]

2009/6/18 arne anka :
> as for tasks/calendar/..., there's even osmo.
> for syncing: at least osmo (and other apps too, probably) uses
> standardized file format for storing data (vcard for contacts f ex).
> most apps cann read those, to. so syncing is nothing more but transferring
> the files in question to your desktop or vice versa -- noting a small
> rsync line can't do

that app looks nice, arne. do you or anyone else have an ipk for it?

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[arne anka]

> I never need to use suspend on my Nokia 6103b.  I do not think it even  
> has a
> suspend mode  — at least not one the user can activate.

that's the difference.
the nokia is nothing but a phone -- and as such it's mostly suspended (or  
"standby").
the fr otoh is a full fledged computer, offering phone functionality. you  
probably don't want your computer to go into standby after a few secs,  
won't you?

if suspended the battery lasts about 48 hrs, maybe more. it's not that  
great, though, but work is still going on to extend that.
but with the most common scenario, ie having access to a power source  
every few hours or constantly (office), you can recharge when necessary.

as for tasks/calendar/..., there's even osmo.
for syncing: at least osmo (and other apps too, probably) uses  
standardized file format for storing data (vcard for contacts f ex).
most apps cann read those, to. so syncing is nothing more but transferring  
the files in question to your desktop or vice versa -- noting a small  
rsync line can't do

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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Brolin Empey]

2009/6/17 David Murrell 

> Hi Brolin,
>
> Fundamentally, at this point, my Openmoko Freerunner fails the Not
> Interested in Technology - Significant Other Acceptance Procedure,
> otherwise known NIT-SOAP.


That is not a problem for me because I am single. :)

>
>
> If you want a phone that is going to Just Work, get a Nokia.


I already have a Nokia, but it lacks many of the features I used on my Palm
Z22.  My Nokia is Series 40, though, not Series 60.  I have never used
Series 60.  I asked Nokia whether they have a GSM phone with all of the
specific features I listed in my original post.  They said they do not, but
they did not mention which features they lack.

>
>
> If you want a Linux smart phone to hack about on, an Openmoko Freerunner
> fits the bill quite nicely, except for the animation speed on the
> screen, which is markedly slow.
>
> I should probably be specific here - the phone is almost certainly going
> to need flashing when you get it, and that's going to require a command
> line.
> You're probably going to want to change something to get something
> working, and that's going to require running ssh to connect to the phone
> on the command line, and changing something, somewhere.


That is also not a problem:  I work as a Webmaster and Linux + Windows
sysadmin for Techsol, which is an embedded computer hardware company that
specialises in Linux on ARM technology.  Our SA2410 Medallion CPU Module
uses the Samsung S3C2410AL.  See .  This site
has multiple usability issues, though.  I am almost done the redesign, which
is more focused on products and features only 1 product per page.

Anyway, I have experience with flashing firmware and using the CLI via SSH.
For example, I installed and configured DD-WRT on a Linksys WRT54GL v1.1 a
few months ago.  I use the CLI on Debian Linux or Ubuntu almost every day.
I use gvim to edit the XML source for Techsol’s Web sites.  I love Vim
because I can do everything with only the keyboard.
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[David Murrell]

Hi Brolin, 

Fundamentally, at this point, my Openmoko Freerunner fails the Not
Interested in Technology - Significant Other Acceptance Procedure,
otherwise known NIT-SOAP. 

If you want a phone that is going to Just Work, get a Nokia. 

If you want a Linux smart phone to hack about on, an Openmoko Freerunner
fits the bill quite nicely, except for the animation speed on the
screen, which is markedly slow. 

I should probably be specific here - the phone is almost certainly going
to need flashing when you get it, and that's going to require a command
line. 
You're probably going to want to change something to get something
working, and that's going to require running ssh to connect to the phone
on the command line, and changing something, somewhere. 

The flip side of this is that you can change what ever you like in
hardware or software with the phone (with exceptions for a couple of
firmware blobs in the GSM modem and wifi chipset), and some people find
this quite liberating. 

Hope this helps,

Cheers,
David


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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[David Ford]

that's with screen on.  i can easily get a couple days out of my fone if
it's entirely idle.  your nokia suspends/sleeps, it's just not a user
visible thing.

-david

Brolin Empey wrote:
> Do you mean 6-8 hours with the screen on or off?  If off, that is very
> poor compared to my Nokia 6103b:  I can leave my Nokia 6103b on for
> days before the battery meter reaches ¼ (the battery meter uses 1-4 bars).
>  
>
> there are also suspend functions which expand battery life. i cant
> say how much because im on an older OS version and my suspend is
> non-functional :)
>
>
> I never need to use suspend on my Nokia 6103b.  I do not think it even
> has a suspend mode  — at least not one the user can activate.
>
> > basically with my computer usb cable at work and my car charger i
> have battery all day
>
> With my Nokia 6103b, I can have battery for multiple days (more days
> if it is only for 16 hours or less per day) without recharging.


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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[Brolin Empey]

2009/6/17 jeremy jozwik 

> 3. I leave my Nokia 6103b on for about 16 hours or less per day.  I do not
>> use it for most of that time.  When I do use it, it is usually for SMS or
>> organiser applications, not for voice calls.  Will the FreeRunner’s battery
>> life be OK for my usage?
>
>
> if you poweroff WIFI and GPS you might get 6-8 hours depending on screen
> brightness.
>

Do you mean 6-8 hours with the screen on or off?  If off, that is very poor
compared to my Nokia 6103b:  I can leave my Nokia 6103b on for days before
the battery meter reaches ¼ (the battery meter uses 1-4 bars).


> there are also suspend functions which expand battery life. i cant say how
> much because im on an older OS version and my suspend is non-functional :)
>

I never need to use suspend on my Nokia 6103b.  I do not think it even has a
suspend mode  — at least not one the user can activate.

> basically with my computer usb cable at work and my car charger i have
battery all day

With my Nokia 6103b, I can have battery for multiple days (more days if it
is only for 16 hours or less per day) without recharging.
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Re: Is a FreeRunner sufficient for me?

[jeremy jozwik]

>
> * a *reliable* phone for SMS and brief voice calls.  The FreeRunner would
> be my primary phone, not only a toy.
>
i dont do much sms, but ive never heard of a missed sms from my contacts

* tasks/todo lists (including tasks with and without alarms, recurring and
> non-recurring tasks, tasks with and without due dates, tasks with and
> without attached notes)
>
e-tasks http://www.opkg.org/package_211.html
or pimlico tasks http://www.pimlico-project.org/tasks.html

* I need a calender to choose dates like on Palm OS.  I do not want a date
> chooser like on my Nokia 6103b.
> * calendar (I enter all of my appointments, work holidays, and other dates
> I want to remember, then the Agenda/overview screen of the Calendar/Datebook
> (?) Palm OS application shows upcoming events in the next 2 weeks or so.  I
> want something similar on a phone.  I need support for recurring events and
> events on a certain day but with no time.)
>
gpe-calandar http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPECalendar [just switched. looks
good to me thus far]
pimlico dates http://www.pimlico-project.org/dates.html


> * textual notes (so I don’t have to keep track of lots of paper notes),
>
leafpad works great for me http://www.opkg.org/package_152.html
you could also try gpe-sketchbook for freehand notes

* a calculator with features comparable to the Palm OS application EasyCalc
>
there is a maddening scientific calculator, never tried it
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/HP48_Series_RPN_Calculator
but SHR-testing/unstable[?] comes with pCalc that works great and even
supports a*(b-c) equations

* enough storage for SMS messages so I never have to delete old SMS
> messages.  I never have to delete old e-mail, so why should I have to delete
> old SMS messages?  I have to keep deleting old SMS messages on my Nokia
> 6103b because it does not have enough storage.
>
mini sd cards can be gigantic. not sure if there is anyway to have sms get
stored there or not

* a drawing/painting application
>
see gpe-sketchbook. i think someone else is working on an alternative app
for sketching as well.
there is also numptyphysics http://www.opkg.org/package_3.html
which is sorta like drawing/painting and is madly addictive

1. Are there applications with all of the specific features I listed,
> though?  My Nokia 6103b has some basic organiser applications, such as for
> calender and task lists, but it does not have all of the features I listed.


think of it as a computer, not a phone. there are or are soon going to be
apps for whatever it is you desire.

I can live without PC sync as long as my information is safe in my
> FreeRunner (stored in non-volatile memory in case the battery dies).  I do
> not even have my Nokia 6103b synced with my PC because I cannot get Nokia PC
> Suite to connect to my phone via Bluetooth.  I have to use Bluetooth because
> I do not have a data cable for my phone.  I could buy a cable, but I am not
> very motiviated to do so because I do not need PC sync.
>

i think everything[?] is still around if the bat dies.

2. Is the FreeRunner’s display readable without a backlight?  My Nokia
> 6103b’s display has a backlight, but the backlight turns off after a few
> seconds of inactivity.  However, this is OK because I can still read the
> display without the backlight.  However, I have seen some cell phones, such
> as my dad’s Samsung, where both the display and backlight turn off after a
> few seconds of inactivity.  This is not very usable for me, especially since
> I am a relatively slow reader to start with.


this is a good question. as of right now the answer is no, but on my recent
trip i noticed that slightly angled away from direct sunlight i could read
my screen without the backlight being on. theres has got to be something
that could be done from that idea.

3. I leave my Nokia 6103b on for about 16 hours or less per day.  I do not
> use it for most of that time.  When I do use it, it is usually for SMS or
> organiser applications, not for voice calls.  Will the FreeRunner’s battery
> life be OK for my usage?


if you poweroff WIFI and GPS you might get 6-8 hours depending on screen
brightness. there are also suspend functions which expand battery life. i
cant say how much because im on an older OS version and my suspend is
non-functional :)

basically with my computer usb cable at work and my car charger i have
battery all day
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