RE: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Dean Collins]

 

I know some people at Truphone but haven't mentioned FIC/OpenMoko to
them yet.

Let me know if anyone from FIC wants an intro to discuss.

 

Regards,

Dean Collins
Cognation Pty Ltd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 +1-212-203-4357 Ph
+1-917-207-3420 Mb
+61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial).



On 1/17/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:

The reason is neither of them have VoIP via WiFi.

Who do I talk to ask them to include WiFi connectivity with the 
OpenMoko? I'll sell my body parts to get hold of such a device.

Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the mobile
communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is the
killer app. 

Well there is one organisation but they don't make hardware. They
even offer a one phone number solution for VoIP/Cell too: truphone.com

Please include WiFi!

Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Austin Taylor]

In conclusion,

1. Both iPhone and OpenMoko are revolutionary, and in different ways.
2. Neither is designed to save you money.
3. Seamless VoIP over WiFi on a cellphone is an interesting idea, and
could save you money and trouble if you make a lot of long-distance
calls and spend a lot of time around open access points.
4. Carriers won't like you saving money, so an open-source phone is
your best bet.
5. Neo1973 rev 1 will not have WiFi, but a later revision probably will.
6. You could even write the code yourself.

Austin Taylor

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

Oh great, I get to be silly now too? Okay, tag you're it.

I'm sorry but taking offence at being misconstrued is not silly.

Renaissance Man

On 19 Jan 2007, at 12:31 am, David Schlesinger wrote:


Dunno, maybe you have a reading comprehension disability


Okay, now it's _you_ that needs to be declared "silly". You're just  
wasting time and electrons now. Please stop.



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Request [was: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary]

[Thomas Seiler]

Am 18.01.2007 um 20:23 schrieb Renaissance Man:

Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a  
different view to start with. I know how awful it can be for people  
like you if others don't think the same way as you to begin with.


We certainly have no problem with people that think in other ways.  
Thats what the freedom in NEO 1973 is all about !


What I do have a problem with is someone who wants me to think as he  
does.


May I ask the list to start, where appropriate, new threads, with  
more specific subjects? That way it is  easier to follow the  
different discussions that evolved from this thread...


Thanks & Cheers,
Thomas Seiler

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RE: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[David Schlesinger]

>Dunno, maybe you have a reading comprehension disability

Okay, now it's _you_ that needs to be declared "silly". You're just
wasting time and electrons now. Please stop.


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Attila Csipa]

On Friday 19 January 2007 00:14, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote:
> > Ah, I thought we were talking about switching _during_ a call (as wifi is
> > much more sensitive to terrain configuration - say moving away from a
> > window, loosing LOS to the AP, etc).
>
> Isn't UMA supposed to be able to handle that?

Not without carrier assistance, AFAIK.

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 11:44 pm, Marcel de Jong wrote:

No, we just think it's improper to demand that the OpenMoko team  
should go back to the drawing table to add a proprietary wifi chip  
on the board. Completely destroying months (or perhaps years) work,  
and demand that they do it in a few months!


That wouldn't be improper, it would just be plain dumb. What would be  
improper, however, would be to suggest that I made such a dumb demand.


(you give me the impression that you think it's no big deal to just  
add a little chip in it, and that they absolutely right now have to  
do it.)


Dunno, maybe you have a reading comprehension disability? Or maybe  
you could explain how you get that impression when my comments  
explicitly state the opposite:


"... my argument isn't that "you must include wifi" in the Neo v1 no  
matter what the cost. My argument is that the GSM+WiFi/VoIP  
combination is a revolution waiting to happen and that OpenMoko  
clearly won't be player in this until it gets WiFi."


Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Marcel de Jong]

One more thing.. let's get this perfectly clear.
I'm not against Wifi-support in the Neo, some time in the future.
I'd love to use it, to communicate with my pc, as a sort of fileserver
or something like that.
And it would make upgrading the phone a breeze.

But it is not a must-have for me. It's a nice-to-have.
If my wallet allows it, I will get a rev. 1 of the Neo1971. Because
the wifi is not a dealbreaker for me.

--
Marcel

On 1/19/07, Marcel de Jong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:23 pm, Marcel de Jong wrote:
>
> > I ask you, who will pay the bandwidth bills?
>
> The bandwidth bills are largely already paid (home and work are flat
> rate), plus free hotspots, plus there's flat rate hotspot schemes
> like The Cloud in Europe.
>

Only in limited spaces, hardly a blanket over a whole country. In NL
it's only at certain hotspots, and even then it's very limited
bandwidth. (and expensive)

> > Yes, Wifi on the Neo is cool, though it would slurp battery life.
> > Given the choice, I'd rather have a long battery life (at least 24
> > hours) and no Wifi, then have Wifi and only be able to use my phone
> > for 5 hours (the estimated battery life of the iphone).
>
> No, that's the estimated battery time for continuous talking, video
> or web browsing. They say 16 hours for continuous music playback. But
> no word on standby time. Presumably more than 16 hours.
>

I don't want to play music on my phone. I just want to make calls...
so for me that's about 5 or 6 hours of calling time. (sidenote:
standby time is also drastically cut when you have your wifi turned
on, those things can be real power consumers, my Nintendo DS can
normally play for about 16 hours non-stop, when I turn on the wifi,
suddenly I can only play about 8 hours non-stop, not that I do that
very much)

> You might also be interested in reading the Truphone FAQ "How is the
> battery life affected when using Truphone?" from this page (pasted
> below):
> http://www.truphone.com/scn/blog/faq.truHow is the battery life
> affected when using Truphone?
> > Truphone uses Wireless LAN (WiFi) radio as well as GSM radio in the
> > handset, so usually you can expect that the battery life when using
> > Truphone in 'Always on' mode is approximately half that of normal
> > cellular (GSM and 3G) operation; for example about 2 days (rather
> > than 4) on an E60. Talk time is usually a bit longer on WiFi than
> > on GSM.
> >

Half of 5 hours is how much? (to go on with the iphone example)
Right... 2.5 hours of talking time. And that's for the service of
truphone alone... that's not including the draining that's done by the
wifi-chip.

BTW, do you own stock of Truphone? Or are you in any other way
affiliated with that product? Just curious.

> > Standby times are greatly affected by GSM / 2G and 3G signal strength:
> >
> > - Good signal 3G connections use slightly more battery than good 2G
> > connections.
> > - Poor signal 3G connections use much more battery than good 2G
> > connections (when a handset is in poor coverage areas it increases
> > its transmission power).
> > - Very poor 3G connections that switch back and forth to 2G use
> > more battery than a stable connection.
> > and so on...
> > Standby time using Truphone on Wireless LAN is not generally
> > affected as strongly by the Wireless LAN signal strength.
> >
> > You can increase the battery life for Wireless LAN use by setting
> > the phone to 'offline' - press the power button briefly and you
> > will get a menu. Don't forget to set it back to 'General' or
> > another active profile before you wish to make GSM calls!
> >

So they admit that there is a drop in battery life when using the
product. Because, to preserve battery-life you have to turn WLAN off.
Also it may be so that Truphone doesn't really affect standby time,
but Truphone is only the product you use. It's not the Wifi chip
that's in your phone.
And it's that Wifi chip that's causing the drainage, it needs to sync
regularly with your wireless router or whatever accesspoint you have.

Besides it's a moot point, there is currently *no* open source
low-power wifi-chip. And Sean and the rest of the OpenMoko team has
indicated that they have no interest in adding a closed-source
closed-spec'ed piece of hardware in there almost completely open
phone. (What would then be the use of making the rest of it completely
open, if they did?)


>> I don't think anybody thinks you're "wrong" about it happening, and
>> happening soon.
>
> I think if you read through you'll find quite a few comments along
> that line Joe.

No, we just think it's improper to demand that the OpenMoko team
should go back to the drawing table to add a proprietary wifi chip on
the board. Completely destroying months (or perhaps years) work, and
demand that they do it in a few months!
(you give me the impression that you think it's no big deal to just
add a little chip in it, and that they absolutel

Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Marcel de Jong]

On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:23 pm, Marcel de Jong wrote:

> I ask you, who will pay the bandwidth bills?

The bandwidth bills are largely already paid (home and work are flat
rate), plus free hotspots, plus there's flat rate hotspot schemes
like The Cloud in Europe.



Only in limited spaces, hardly a blanket over a whole country. In NL
it's only at certain hotspots, and even then it's very limited
bandwidth. (and expensive)


> Yes, Wifi on the Neo is cool, though it would slurp battery life.
> Given the choice, I'd rather have a long battery life (at least 24
> hours) and no Wifi, then have Wifi and only be able to use my phone
> for 5 hours (the estimated battery life of the iphone).

No, that's the estimated battery time for continuous talking, video
or web browsing. They say 16 hours for continuous music playback. But
no word on standby time. Presumably more than 16 hours.



I don't want to play music on my phone. I just want to make calls...
so for me that's about 5 or 6 hours of calling time. (sidenote:
standby time is also drastically cut when you have your wifi turned
on, those things can be real power consumers, my Nintendo DS can
normally play for about 16 hours non-stop, when I turn on the wifi,
suddenly I can only play about 8 hours non-stop, not that I do that
very much)


You might also be interested in reading the Truphone FAQ "How is the
battery life affected when using Truphone?" from this page (pasted
below):
http://www.truphone.com/scn/blog/faq.truHow is the battery life
affected when using Truphone?
> Truphone uses Wireless LAN (WiFi) radio as well as GSM radio in the
> handset, so usually you can expect that the battery life when using
> Truphone in 'Always on' mode is approximately half that of normal
> cellular (GSM and 3G) operation; for example about 2 days (rather
> than 4) on an E60. Talk time is usually a bit longer on WiFi than
> on GSM.
>


Half of 5 hours is how much? (to go on with the iphone example)
Right... 2.5 hours of talking time. And that's for the service of
truphone alone... that's not including the draining that's done by the
wifi-chip.

BTW, do you own stock of Truphone? Or are you in any other way
affiliated with that product? Just curious.


> Standby times are greatly affected by GSM / 2G and 3G signal strength:
>
> - Good signal 3G connections use slightly more battery than good 2G
> connections.
> - Poor signal 3G connections use much more battery than good 2G
> connections (when a handset is in poor coverage areas it increases
> its transmission power).
> - Very poor 3G connections that switch back and forth to 2G use
> more battery than a stable connection.
> and so on...
> Standby time using Truphone on Wireless LAN is not generally
> affected as strongly by the Wireless LAN signal strength.
>
> You can increase the battery life for Wireless LAN use by setting
> the phone to 'offline' - press the power button briefly and you
> will get a menu. Don't forget to set it back to 'General' or
> another active profile before you wish to make GSM calls!
>


So they admit that there is a drop in battery life when using the
product. Because, to preserve battery-life you have to turn WLAN off.
Also it may be so that Truphone doesn't really affect standby time,
but Truphone is only the product you use. It's not the Wifi chip
that's in your phone.
And it's that Wifi chip that's causing the drainage, it needs to sync
regularly with your wireless router or whatever accesspoint you have.

Besides it's a moot point, there is currently *no* open source
low-power wifi-chip. And Sean and the rest of the OpenMoko team has
indicated that they have no interest in adding a closed-source
closed-spec'ed piece of hardware in there almost completely open
phone. (What would then be the use of making the rest of it completely
open, if they did?)



I don't think anybody thinks you're "wrong" about it happening, and
happening soon.


I think if you read through you'll find quite a few comments along
that line Joe.


No, we just think it's improper to demand that the OpenMoko team
should go back to the drawing table to add a proprietary wifi chip on
the board. Completely destroying months (or perhaps years) work, and
demand that they do it in a few months!
(you give me the impression that you think it's no big deal to just
add a little chip in it, and that they absolutely right now have to do
it.)

---
Marcel de Jong

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070119 00:00]:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:23 pm, Marcel de Jong wrote:
> 
> >I ask you, who will pay the bandwidth bills?
> 
> The bandwidth bills are largely already paid (home and work are flat rate), 
> plus free hotspots, plus there's flat rate hotspot schemes like The Cloud in 
> Europe.

Well, TheCloud is mainly a UK provider. Definitly not an European one.
And they don't even tell what it costs on their German homepage. OTOH
they do have about 800 hotspots in Germany, mostly in Hotels.

Free hotspots aren't here that popular. Haven't seen or used one ever.

And for many people using their phone on the work network is a good
reason to get fired, if it works at all (because enterprise networks
often have only strictly limited access to the Internet).

> >Yes, Wifi on the Neo is cool, though it would slurp battery life. Given the 
> >choice, I'd rather have a long battery life (at least 24 hours) and no Wifi, 
> >then have Wifi and only be 
> >able to use my phone for 5 hours (the estimated battery life of the iphone).

> No, that's the estimated battery time for continuous talking, video or web 
> browsing. They say 16 hours for continuous music playback. But no word on 
> standby time. Presumably more than 
> 16 hours.

The problem is, that the only acceptable components for the OpenMoko
platforms are opensource compatible devices. Opensource friendly +
power efficient doesn't exist at the moment.

(btw, I don't know the motivation for the AGPS part, OTOH, it's only
an userspace daemon that is closed-source.)

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 21:08, Attila Csipa wrote:
> Ah, I thought we were talking about switching _during_ a call (as wifi is
> much more sensitive to terrain configuration - say moving away from a
> window, loosing LOS to the AP, etc).

Isn't UMA supposed to be able to handle that?


pgpPL5fE9cK5o.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:34 pm, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:


Renaissance Man writes:


And, to those who think I'm wrong about the combination of GSM and  
WiFi/VoIP in a mobile device, you're just wrong and I'll be  
emailing this list in 2-3 years time (with a link to this  
discussion) to gloat, because so many of us will be using such  
devices and saving millions on our phone bills. :)


I don't think anybody thinks you're "wrong" about it happening, and  
happening soon.


I think if you read through you'll find quite a few comments along  
that line Joe.


Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:23 pm, Marcel de Jong wrote:


I ask you, who will pay the bandwidth bills?


The bandwidth bills are largely already paid (home and work are flat  
rate), plus free hotspots, plus there's flat rate hotspot schemes  
like The Cloud in Europe.


Yes, Wifi on the Neo is cool, though it would slurp battery life.  
Given the choice, I'd rather have a long battery life (at least 24  
hours) and no Wifi, then have Wifi and only be able to use my phone  
for 5 hours (the estimated battery life of the iphone).


No, that's the estimated battery time for continuous talking, video  
or web browsing. They say 16 hours for continuous music playback. But  
no word on standby time. Presumably more than 16 hours.


You might also be interested in reading the Truphone FAQ "How is the  
battery life affected when using Truphone?" from this page (pasted  
below):
http://www.truphone.com/scn/blog/faq.truHow is the battery life  
affected when using Truphone?
Truphone uses Wireless LAN (WiFi) radio as well as GSM radio in the  
handset, so usually you can expect that the battery life when using  
Truphone in 'Always on' mode is approximately half that of normal  
cellular (GSM and 3G) operation; for example about 2 days (rather  
than 4) on an E60. Talk time is usually a bit longer on WiFi than  
on GSM.


Standby times are greatly affected by GSM / 2G and 3G signal strength:

- Good signal 3G connections use slightly more battery than good 2G  
connections.
- Poor signal 3G connections use much more battery than good 2G  
connections (when a handset is in poor coverage areas it increases  
its transmission power).
- Very poor 3G connections that switch back and forth to 2G use  
more battery than a stable connection.

and so on...
Standby time using Truphone on Wireless LAN is not generally  
affected as strongly by the Wireless LAN signal strength.


You can increase the battery life for Wireless LAN use by setting  
the phone to 'offline' - press the power button briefly and you  
will get a menu. Don't forget to set it back to 'General' or  
another active profile before you wish to make GSM calls!


We will publish a survey of battery life in various situations  
shortly.

Renaissance Man


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:24 pm, Andreas Kostyrka wrote:

Not realistic, because the iPhone won't be available this year in  
Europe ;)


Not according to Apple. End of 2007 is their intended release date.

Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Renaissance Man writes:
>
>And, to those who think I'm wrong about the combination of GSM and  
>WiFi/VoIP in a mobile device, you're just wrong and I'll be emailing  
>this list in 2-3 years time (with a link to this discussion) to  
>gloat, because so many of us will be using such devices and saving  
>millions on our phone bills. :)

I don't think anybody thinks you're "wrong" about it happening, and
happening soon.  Just about the relative importance of that feature
vs. open development in a device to be released within the next two
months (not years).

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 23:06]:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 9:42 pm, Sencer wrote:
> 
> >Everbody gets what you are saying. It is you who does not understand that it 
> >is largely irrelevant, because everybody already is in favour of having wifi 
> >at some point. The question 
> >is not about the "plus" side of having wifi, but the question is with 
> >dealing with the costs of adding wifi to 1st generation device, which 
> >completely flies past you.
> 
> No, that was just the argument some were projecting onto me; my argument 
> isn't that "you must include wifi" in the Neo v1 no matter what the cost. My 
> argument is that the GSM+WiFi/VoIP 
> combination is a revolution waiting to happen and that OpenMoko clearly won't 
> be player in this until it gets WiFi.
The point is, it's not a revolution. It might be a local revolution,
but e.g. in Germany/Austria there is NO flatfee WiFi provider. So the
local chapters of the revolution died, because all members went broke
on WiFi hotspot access charges *g*

> By the time it does get WiFi, however, the revolution may already have 
> happened, and OpenMoko will simply be joining the bandwagon, which is a shame 
> because of the potential mindshare 
> in being a pioneer of such a device.
Technically speaking, the WiFi/VoIP has already happened in the Nokia
E/N series. Just that nobody really cares ;)

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 22:45]:
> Well, thanks for the interesting discussion. Sorry for riling a few people 
> (happens when you challenge people's preconceptions). Look forward with eager 
> anticipation to the Neo v2. 
> Hopefully I wouldn't have been sucked into the iPhone ecosystem before then.
Not realistic, because the iPhone won't be available this year in
Europe ;)

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Marcel de Jong]

Hi renaissance man

On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Well, thanks for the interesting discussion. Sorry for riling a few
people (happens when you challenge people's preconceptions). Look
forward with eager anticipation to the Neo v2. Hopefully I wouldn't
have been sucked into the iPhone ecosystem before then.

And, to those who think I'm wrong about the combination of GSM and
WiFi/VoIP in a mobile device, you're just wrong and I'll be emailing
this list in 2-3 years time (with a link to this discussion) to
gloat, because so many of us will be using such devices and saving
millions on our phone bills. :)

Renaissance Man


Gloat all you want, but I ask you, who will pay the bandwidth bills?
(take a guess... Yes, that's right... the user of the network, ie YOU)
Sure you might save millions on phone bills, but you spend almost as
much money on bandwidth bills (do you really think that municipal WiFi
also means free VOIP? There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Everything comes at a cost)

I don't think that 'saving some money on phone bills' is a killer app.

Yes, Wifi on the Neo is cool, though it would slurp battery life.
Given the choice, I'd rather have a long battery life (at least 24
hours) and no Wifi, then have Wifi and only be able to use my phone
for 5 hours (the estimated battery life of the iphone).

Second thing. For a revolution you need people who stand behind that
revolution. If Neo rev.1 would come out with Wifi, but has no or a
small audience, I'd hardly call that a revolution.
Let's first be sure that this isn't vaporware, get people developing
for the platform, creating real killer apps, and then look into this
wifi-thing. Get more users attracted to the phone, because it has this
awesome program that everyone really needs, and oh yeah, it also has
VOIP possibilities because of the built-in wifi... then you can claim
'revolution', but not solely on the Wifi.
Currently there already are wifi enabled phones. For instance Skype
phones etc. And those aren't really selling like hotcakes. Okay,
indeed most aren't GSM phones, but still they have Wifi, they will
also save you phone bills...

Those are just my two cents,
Marcel

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 9:42 pm, Sencer wrote:

Everbody gets what you are saying. It is you who does not  
understand that it is largely irrelevant, because everybody already  
is in favour of having wifi at some point. The question is not  
about the "plus" side of having wifi, but the question is with  
dealing with the costs of adding wifi to 1st generation device,  
which completely flies past you.


No, that was just the argument some were projecting onto me; my  
argument isn't that "you must include wifi" in the Neo v1 no matter  
what the cost. My argument is that the GSM+WiFi/VoIP combination is a  
revolution waiting to happen and that OpenMoko clearly won't be  
player in this until it gets WiFi.


By the time it does get WiFi, however, the revolution may already  
have happened, and OpenMoko will simply be joining the bandwagon,  
which is a shame because of the potential mindshare in being a  
pioneer of such a device.


Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

Well, thanks for the interesting discussion. Sorry for riling a few  
people (happens when you challenge people's preconceptions). Look  
forward with eager anticipation to the Neo v2. Hopefully I wouldn't  
have been sucked into the iPhone ecosystem before then.


And, to those who think I'm wrong about the combination of GSM and  
WiFi/VoIP in a mobile device, you're just wrong and I'll be emailing  
this list in 2-3 years time (with a link to this discussion) to  
gloat, because so many of us will be using such devices and saving  
millions on our phone bills. :)


Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Sencer]

You still don't get it. The "revolutionary aspect" of such a device
would be the ability to talk to anyone mostly for free with one
device and phone number, and be mobile. WiFi/VoIP is just a necessary
part of the package for achieving that.


Everbody gets what you are saying. It is you who does not understand
that it is largely irrelevant, because everybody already is in favour
of having wifi at some point. The question is not about the "plus"
side of having wifi, but the question is with dealing with the costs
of adding wifi to 1st generation device, which completely flies past
you.


Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a
different view to start with.


What different view? As I said everybody is in favour of having wifi,
that's not the debate. The debate should be about weighing the cost
and benefit of having wifi in the 1st gen. device. But all you do is
keep on talking about how great an enabler wifi would be, and then go
off on tangents about "VOIP over WiFI -. great feature or greatest
feature?"... any you never even responded to any of the many points
made that explain why getting wifi later is a better of course of
action for the overall project (the software platform, remember?).


I know how awful it can be for people
like you if others don't think the same way as you to begin with.


+1 irony

The only issue I have is with your utterly pointless and unproductive
whining that is clogging the list.




Sencer

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 7:54 pm, David Schlesinger wrote:

On 1/18/07 11:23 AM, "Renaissance Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:


You still don't get it.


Y' know, you're right. I don't. I clearly am not intelligent enough to
appreciate the worldview-shaking impact of saving a few bucks on my  
cell

phone bill. I don't suppose further repetitions of this revelation are
likely to change that, either.


I don't think your inability to see the potential has anything to do  
with a lack of intelligence. It's more to do with your preconceptions.


Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 20:27]:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 1:30 pm, Sencer wrote:
> 
> You still don't get it. The "revolutionary aspect" of such a device would be 
> the ability to talk to anyone mostly for free with one device and phone 
> number, and be mobile. WiFi/VoIP is
> just a necessary part of the package for achieving that.
It would be even more revolutionary if you could make it work ;)
Please note that VoIP really puts some pressure for upload bandwidth,
which some public hotspots might not be able to fulfill. Plus, VoIP
has a tendency to break badly when the bandwidth gets overextended.
And because of TCP/IPs lack of QoS, you need to budget way more
bandwidth for the call to have reserves. (Even then it can break.)

Basically, you are telling me that one specific way to avoid paying
for phoning is revolutionary. As I've mentioned it already, that might
be so for you, but in many places WiFi coverage is sparse and/or
expensive.


> >P.S.: Thanks for finally realising that it is better if you drop the debate 
> >about including wifi in the first generation device. Be it whether the 
> >fundamental point people having been 
> >trying to make to you, got through, or because you decided to move on to 
> >cheerleading and trolling for some other revolutionary product.
> 
> Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a different view 
> to start with. I know how awful it can be for people like you if others don't 
> think the same way as you to 
> begin with.

Nope, you are telling us, that the Neo should have an UK/London
edition with WiFi added, and you personally would consider that a
killer app.

Basically there are many potentially useful additions to the Neo
(powered USB, USB2, changeable MicroSD slot, EDGE, UMTS, keyboard,
WiFi, and so on).

Bad as it sounds, FIC had to choose a set of features that they can
and will implement. Bad for you, your pet feature WiFi is not included
in the first revision of the phone.

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Mark McClellan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 19:32]:
>First. The lack of WiFi will _not_ prevent me from buying the first gen
>openmoko phone.
me too.
> 
>Second. I have WiFi on my HTC Wizard (Cingular 8125) and almost never use
>it.
me too (in my case it's a Nokia9500).
> 
>Third. VOIP is cool and all, but I don't understand how a Mobile carrier
>can make $$$ from it.
That's the idea that our friend from London want's to achieve, no
money to the carrier ;)

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 20:20]:
> And why do you keep making moot points about the technical problems of WiFi 
> on a mobile device when many such devices already have it and Neo will 
> eventually have it too?

Because currently it works well, because almost nobody uses it. So you
get 11Mb/s brutto, which is more like 4-5Mb/s true bandwidth. Now
despite that there are other codecs available, most sip providers ask
for 2x100kb/s bandwidth during a call (up/down stream).

200kb/s is usually easy accomodated by a hotspot. 10 people doing
200kb/s will become jerky. And yes, most hotspots have just a puny
ADSL connection. Typical uplink speeds are 64-128kb/s for these.
I've got locally the biggest non-ADSL2 package, and I get 768kb/s
upload-wise. Meaning that my WLAN at best can conduct 3-4 calls at the
same time. But what that means in reality is, that there might be
hotspots that are not capable to do even one VoIP call, and most will
max out their upload speed with 1-2 calls. This might be not the case
with a network like the one you mentioned in London. OTOH, it might be
an issue, depending upon their backbone.

Furthermore, QoS on WLAN is extremly difficult by the nature of the
thing: it's a shared medium with collision detection. That means, you
need to have a strict oversupply of bandwidth to do VoIP.

To repeat:
WLAN (11mbit ~ 4mbit usable) can probably support 10 calls concurrently.
ADSL (64kb/s => 768kb/s uplink) can probaby support 3-4 calls at most,
and in some extreme cases not even one (you just need one other user
that does some transfers, and your phone call quality is gone).

So while one guy walking around London and doing VoIP via WLAN
wouldn't probably have problems, thousands of them running around will
have problems.

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[David Schlesinger]

On 1/18/07 12:08 PM, "Attila Csipa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thursday 18 January 2007 16:59, Andreas Kostyrka wrote:
>> It's basically "trivial". You get one number, that rings on different
>> numbers. It rings once on the sipphone, and once on the GSM part.
>> If the phone is clever, it will prefer to make the connection via sip.
> 
> Ah, I thought we were talking about switching _during_ a call (as wifi is much
> more sensitive to terrain configuration - say moving away from a window,
> loosing LOS to the AP, etc).

No, that's more challenging. The BTFusion stuff mentioned earlier is an
effort in that direction.



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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Attila Csipa]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 16:59, Andreas Kostyrka wrote:
> It's basically "trivial". You get one number, that rings on different
> numbers. It rings once on the sipphone, and once on the GSM part.
> If the phone is clever, it will prefer to make the connection via sip.

Ah, I thought we were talking about switching _during_ a call (as wifi is much 
more sensitive to terrain configuration - say moving away from a window, 
loosing LOS to the AP, etc).


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Attila Csipa]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 12:33, Renaissance Man wrote:
> All your arguments against WiFi on the Neo seem a little moot, as

You got me all wrong. I'm not against WiFi anywhere, I just don't think VoIP 
over Wifi in phones is 'the revolution'. It is good way to share data and an 
awkward way to circumvent carrier monopolies with an inferior technology for 
that specific application, that's all there is to it. If one day it'll be on 
the Neo, cool, I'll take it for the data applications, you can use it for 
VoIP, everybody happy. Until then, BT will do just fine. Don't mix means and 
goal. VoIP+Wifi became your goal instead of being the means :)

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Richard Franks]

On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> P.S.: Thanks for finally realising that it is better if you drop
> the debate about including wifi in the first generation device. Be
> it whether the fundamental point people having been trying to make
> to you, got through, or because you decided to move on to
> cheerleading and trolling for some other revolutionary product.

Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a
different view to start with. I know how awful it can be for people
like you if others don't think the same way as you to begin with.


You've won my vote for troll, too.

On the upside though, I'm definitely interested in the possibilities
of using VoIP with bluetooth for home/office, which I wasn't before
this thread started - handy? Yes. Cost-effective? Yes. Revolutionary?
Debatable, but let's not -- I'm upset that the Neo won't come with a
bunch of magical time pixies who transmogrifiy new paradigms into
productivity quanta.. but since I'll have to wait until v2.0 at least
for that, there's no point complaining endlessly about the magical
pixie-less v1.0!

Richard

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[David Schlesinger]

On 1/18/07 11:23 AM, "Renaissance Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> You still don't get it.

Y' know, you're right. I don't. I clearly am not intelligent enough to
appreciate the worldview-shaking impact of saving a few bucks on my cell
phone bill. I don't suppose further repetitions of this revelation are
likely to change that, either.

I think you're wasting your time here trying to convince me, honestly.

Sorry For The Inconvenience.

"Now I can go to the movies. By _myself_."--Avon Long as "Ezra" in _Trading
Places_



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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Corey]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 12:23, Renaissance Man wrote:
> You still don't get it. The "revolutionary aspect" of such a device  
> would be the ability to talk to anyone mostly for free with one  
> device and phone number, and be mobile. WiFi/VoIP is just a necessary  
> part of the package for achieving that.
> 

What's the "revolutionary aspect" of  flogging a dead-horse?

Fact:  the first version of Fic1973 isn't going to ship with WiFi 

Fact: that's a bummer

Clue: deal with it, wait for the next version, and/or find some other device
on the market that suits your requirements


> Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a  
> different view to start with. I know how awful it can be for people  
> like you if others don't think the same way as you to begin with.
> 

Apparently you've just described an issue you yourself have, seeing
the amount of effort and time you've placed into arguing/debating your
own perspective of the matter. You appear to have a difficult time
accepting that others don't necessarily think the same way as you.


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 1:30 pm, Sencer wrote:


> Renaissance Man, reducing the success or the "revolutionary aspect"
> of openmoko to the aspect of Wifi is missing the point completely
> and utterly.

To suggest that that's what I'm doing is missing my point entirely.


O RLY? Let me quote what you wrote:


Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
The reason is neither of them have VoIP via WiFi.


Reality distortion field in full effect...


You still don't get it. The "revolutionary aspect" of such a device  
would be the ability to talk to anyone mostly for free with one  
device and phone number, and be mobile. WiFi/VoIP is just a necessary  
part of the package for achieving that.


P.S.: Thanks for finally realising that it is better if you drop  
the debate about including wifi in the first generation device. Be  
it whether the fundamental point people having been trying to make  
to you, got through, or because you decided to move on to  
cheerleading and trolling for some other revolutionary product.


Hey, no problem. Sorry for being so inconvenient as to have a  
different view to start with. I know how awful it can be for people  
like you if others don't think the same way as you to begin with.


Renaissance Man


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

Why do some of you keep non-arguments about WiFi/VoIP without GSM? At  
no point have I said I talked about having WiFi/VoIP without GSM.


And why do you keep making moot points about the technical problems  
of WiFi on a mobile device when many such devices already have it and  
Neo will eventually have it too?


Renaissance Man

On 18 Jan 2007, at 4:53 pm, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I work for BT, who have been trying to get WIFI VoIP working for  
_YEARS_. It's very, very difficult and has lots of problems:


1) As several other people have mentioned, the first problem is  
coverage. A typical access point will only have 50m - 100m of  
coverage.


2) There's no guaranteed RF bandwidth (On GSM you get a dedicated  
chunk of bandwidth just for you which no-one else can use). On  
Wifi, everyone shares the available RF bandwidth, which is usually  
<11Mbs.


3) The backhaul network (i.e. the internet) is fairly unreliable as  
far as VoIP is concerned. GSM networks usually have a circuit  
switched backhaul like SDH, so again, guaranteed bandwidth. There  
are IP QoS solutions out there, but there difficult to implement  
well. Having said all that, it is far, far better than it was.


4) Most access points are usually connected using ADSL. The 'A' bit  
of ADSL is the problem here. VoIP requires a lot of upload  
bandwidth, which ADSL doesn't provide.


5) Most access points have firewalls meaning VoIP has to tunnel  
through them using HTTP, confusing any backhaul QoS (How can the  
network tell the difference between your time-critical VoIP call  
and someone downloading a 4GB DVD image?)


6) Again as people have pointed out, a roaming Wifi contract is  
very, VERY expensive (e.g. £40 per month)


7) Power. Even the low power wifi chipsets are very power hungry. I  
guess you could argue that during a call, GSM draws a fair bit of  
power but it's nowhere near that of a wifi chipset. GSM actively  
changes its power output so it only uses what it needs to reach the  
base station. Although the more advanced Wifi chipsets can also  
change their power output, it's not done very well and typically  
only have 3 power settings (including on and off!). I use Marvel's  
88W8385 chipset which is designed specifically for mobile  
applications and have been very disappointed with its power  
consumption. I guess with a regular Lithium Ion/Polymer phone  
battery you'd be lucky to get 30 minutes of talk time. When it  
comes to standby however, the power requirements of wifi don't drop  
too much whereas GSM drops to almost nothing. GSM Idle really is  
amazing. All a hand unit needs to do is transmit a short keep-alive  
every few minutes to let the last station know it's still there.


Like I say, BT has been working on this for ages and DO have a  
solution: BT Fusion (http://www.bt.com/btfusion/). It uses your own  
home/work access point if your in range, then switches to BT  
OpenZone access points, then drops to GSM if your not covered by  
WiFi. I think there's also some magic to move you onto GSM if you  
move out of range of Wifi DURING a call.


BTW: I have absolutely nothing to do with Fusion development and am  
probably wrong about all of its features. This information is my  
own personal understanding of the technology and is not supported  
by BT whatsoever.



Cheers,

Tom



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:community- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Kostyrka

Sent: 18 January 2007 16:05
To: Renaissance Man
Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 12:36]:

On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:22 am, Attila Csipa wrote:


On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:01, Renaissance Man wrote:
The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows  
smartphones is that they're either very expensive and/or they  
don't actually make VoIP via WiFi easy.


Why should they risk? They are selling millions of handsets  
through carriers, and they sure don't want to lose those contracts.


And, as is often the case, someone else's risk is another's  
opportunity.


All your arguments against WiFi on the Neo seem a little moot, as  
it's pretty clear from what people are saying that it will have  
WiFi; it's just a matter of time.


I just wish it had been on the first model because I would have  
had all my needs fulfilled. As it stands I'm in the market for  
something else now, and may even end up with an iPhone if
Apple includes VoIP via WiFi before OpenMoko. I wish this not just  
for my own selfish reasons but because I'd like to see an open  
product like OpenMoko bet out a closed product like


I don't think so. You seem to have missed the detail, that iPhone will
be offered this year on one (1) US network this year. They don't

RE: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[David Schlesinger]

Yes, Bluetooth's PAN profile is intended to enable pico/mesh networking...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Koen Kooi
Sent: Thu 1/18/2007 10:41 AM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Doug Shawhan schreef:

> Magic fuel cells aside, I predict 802.11x will not be a big deal for
> mobiles until someone comes up with beautiful, free peer-to-peer voice
> app

Or, even better, a mesh voip solution. I was working at a festival last year 
(50k
visitors, 2k staff) and phone service was down (surprise!) for all but one 
network. With
mesh networking you could make calls within the mesh easily, and with enough 
endpoints,
outside the mesh as well.
AFAIK you can do mesh-like networks with BT as well (bridget piconets), but I 
think you'll
get hit with the limited range.


regards,

Koen
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin)

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=aPLY
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Ye
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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Koen Kooi]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Doug Shawhan schreef:

> Magic fuel cells aside, I predict 802.11x will not be a big deal for
> mobiles until someone comes up with beautiful, free peer-to-peer voice
> app

Or, even better, a mesh voip solution. I was working at a festival last year 
(50k
visitors, 2k staff) and phone service was down (surprise!) for all but one 
network. With
mesh networking you could make calls within the mesh easily, and with enough 
endpoints,
outside the mesh as well.
AFAIK you can do mesh-like networks with BT as well (bridget piconets), but I 
think you'll
get hit with the limited range.


regards,

Koen
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin)

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=aPLY
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Koen Kooi]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Doug Shawhan schreef:

> Magic fuel cells aside, I predict 802.11x will not be a big deal for
> mobiles until someone comes up with beautiful, free peer-to-peer voice
> app

Or, even better, a mesh voip solution. I was working at a festival last year 
(50k
visitors, 2k staff) and phone service was down (surprise!) for all but one 
network. With
mesh networking you could make calls within the mesh easily, and with enough 
endpoints,
outside the mesh as well.
AFAIK you can do mesh-like networks with BT as well (bridget piconets), but I 
think you'll
get hit with the limited range.


regards,

Koen
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFFr79CMkyGM64RGpERAp6eAJ9vqn09Gqz6hVdHK2MO30RklT+sTQCgufte
wjSpljJw7rDCqFXy56ujqlE=
=aPLY
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Sameer Verma]

Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:

On 1/18/07 3:37 AM, "David Schlesinger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

  

The NEO's not _cheap_, exactly: there was a recent survey of 1,800 recent
purchasers of cell phones, and 21--not 21 _percent_, mind you, 21,
period--paid over $400. Not many more paid as much as $350.



In our defense, those phones are carrier subsidized. This makes a huge
difference. Try to walk into a store in the States and buy a device without
a contract. You'll know what I mean.

-Sean 



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Interestingly, AppleInsider has a post on the breakdown of the iPhone in 
terms of cost. I'm not sure about the accuracy of the numbers, but it is 
interesting to see a breakdown of items.


http://appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2415

Sameer

--
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Information Systems
San Francisco State University
San Francisco CA 94132 USA
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://opensource.sfsu.edu/

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Mark McClellan]

First. The lack of WiFi will _not_ prevent me from buying the first gen
openmoko phone.

Second. I have WiFi on my HTC Wizard (Cingular 8125) and almost never use
it.

Third. VOIP is cool and all, but I don't understand how a Mobile carrier can
make $$$ from it.

Forth. Sorry for contributing to a silly thread...

Mark

On 1/17/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


The reason is neither of them have VoIP via WiFi.

Who do I talk to ask them to include WiFi connectivity with the
OpenMoko? I'll sell my body parts to get hold of such a device.

Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the mobile
communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is the
killer app.

Well there is one organisation but they don't make hardware. They
even offer a one phone number solution for VoIP/Cell too: truphone.com

Please include WiFi!

Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Doug Shawhan]

Okay. As much as I hate to inject any sort of air of reality into these
proceedings...

The revolution evidently has a bunch of people who don't see that the value
of half (or ninety-five one-hundredths) of a loaf exceeds that of no loaf at
all.
 



I must admit, my knee-jerk reaction was "Uhnt! Why ain't there no 802.11x!"

After a few minutes neanderthal grinding and googling the phone for more 
info, I figured that it would bust the (very acceptable) price point and 
would most likely eat up batteries.


Magic fuel cells aside, I predict 802.11x will not be a big deal for 
mobiles until someone comes up with beautiful, free peer-to-peer voice 
app that is as easy to use and develop for as jabber. Of course, if one 
already has a phone that can do tcp/ip via bluetooth, and has an open 
architechture that allows one to develop such an animal ... TOING!!!



As has been noted, it's a lot easier to post an email message saying, "Just
add Wifi!" as though it were some sort of syrupy substance you could pour
into a tank on the device, but there's actually more to it than that.
 

Yeah. I bought some of that from a guy in Argentina that emailed me. It 
really gummed up my VCR. Turns out Karo doesn't even make hardware!



I'd like to have this line of discussion officially declared "silly",
please.
 


Line of Discussion: I dub thee silly.



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RE: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[thomas.cooksey]

I work for BT, who have been trying to get WIFI VoIP working for _YEARS_. It's 
very, very difficult and has lots of problems:

1) As several other people have mentioned, the first problem is coverage. A 
typical access point will only have 50m - 100m of coverage.

2) There's no guaranteed RF bandwidth (On GSM you get a dedicated chunk of 
bandwidth just for you which no-one else can use). On Wifi, everyone shares the 
available RF bandwidth, which is usually <11Mbs.

3) The backhaul network (i.e. the internet) is fairly unreliable as far as VoIP 
is concerned. GSM networks usually have a circuit switched backhaul like SDH, 
so again, guaranteed bandwidth. There are IP QoS solutions out there, but there 
difficult to implement well. Having said all that, it is far, far better than 
it was.

4) Most access points are usually connected using ADSL. The 'A' bit of ADSL is 
the problem here. VoIP requires a lot of upload bandwidth, which ADSL doesn't 
provide.

5) Most access points have firewalls meaning VoIP has to tunnel through them 
using HTTP, confusing any backhaul QoS (How can the network tell the difference 
between your time-critical VoIP call and someone downloading a 4GB DVD image?)

6) Again as people have pointed out, a roaming Wifi contract is very, VERY 
expensive (e.g. £40 per month)

7) Power. Even the low power wifi chipsets are very power hungry. I guess you 
could argue that during a call, GSM draws a fair bit of power but it's nowhere 
near that of a wifi chipset. GSM actively changes its power output so it only 
uses what it needs to reach the base station. Although the more advanced Wifi 
chipsets can also change their power output, it's not done very well and 
typically only have 3 power settings (including on and off!). I use Marvel's 
88W8385 chipset which is designed specifically for mobile applications and have 
been very disappointed with its power consumption. I guess with a regular 
Lithium Ion/Polymer phone battery you'd be lucky to get 30 minutes of talk 
time. When it comes to standby however, the power requirements of wifi don't 
drop too much whereas GSM drops to almost nothing. GSM Idle really is amazing. 
All a hand unit needs to do is transmit a short keep-alive every few minutes to 
let the last station know it's still there.

Like I say, BT has been working on this for ages and DO have a solution: BT 
Fusion (http://www.bt.com/btfusion/). It uses your own home/work access point 
if your in range, then switches to BT OpenZone access points, then drops to GSM 
if your not covered by WiFi. I think there's also some magic to move you onto 
GSM if you move out of range of Wifi DURING a call. 

BTW: I have absolutely nothing to do with Fusion development and am probably 
wrong about all of its features. This information is my own personal 
understanding of the technology and is not supported by BT whatsoever.


Cheers,

Tom



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Kostyrka
Sent: 18 January 2007 16:05
To: Renaissance Man
Cc: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 12:36]:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:22 am, Attila Csipa wrote:
> 
> >On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:01, Renaissance Man wrote:
> >>The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones is that 
> >>they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually make VoIP via WiFi 
> >>easy.
> >
> >Why should they risk? They are selling millions of handsets through 
> >carriers, and they sure don't want to lose those contracts.
> 
> And, as is often the case, someone else's risk is another's opportunity.
> 
> All your arguments against WiFi on the Neo seem a little moot, as it's pretty 
> clear from what people are saying that it will have WiFi; it's just a matter 
> of time.
> 
> I just wish it had been on the first model because I would have had all my 
> needs fulfilled. As it stands I'm in the market for something else now, and 
> may even end up with an iPhone if 
> Apple includes VoIP via WiFi before OpenMoko. I wish this not just for my own 
> selfish reasons but because I'd like to see an open product like OpenMoko bet 
> out a closed product like

I don't think so. You seem to have missed the detail, that iPhone will
be offered this year on one (1) US network this year. They don't
even say if it's GSM or not. (Probably.) They have not yet told with
which networks they intend to cooperate in Europe. Even if it's GSM,
there is no telling if they will work on other GSM networks:

*) frequencies are different in the US as in Europe.
*) the data part of the phone might depend upon network details. E.g.
a Sidekick won't wor

Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 12:36]:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:22 am, Attila Csipa wrote:
> 
> >On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:01, Renaissance Man wrote:
> >>The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones is that 
> >>they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually make VoIP via WiFi 
> >>easy.
> >
> >Why should they risk? They are selling millions of handsets through 
> >carriers, and they sure don't want to lose those contracts.
> 
> And, as is often the case, someone else's risk is another's opportunity.
> 
> All your arguments against WiFi on the Neo seem a little moot, as it's pretty 
> clear from what people are saying that it will have WiFi; it's just a matter 
> of time.
> 
> I just wish it had been on the first model because I would have had all my 
> needs fulfilled. As it stands I'm in the market for something else now, and 
> may even end up with an iPhone if 
> Apple includes VoIP via WiFi before OpenMoko. I wish this not just for my own 
> selfish reasons but because I'd like to see an open product like OpenMoko bet 
> out a closed product like

I don't think so. You seem to have missed the detail, that iPhone will
be offered this year on one (1) US network this year. They don't
even say if it's GSM or not. (Probably.) They have not yet told with
which networks they intend to cooperate in Europe. Even if it's GSM,
there is no telling if they will work on other GSM networks:

*) frequencies are different in the US as in Europe.
*) the data part of the phone might depend upon network details. E.g.
a Sidekick won't work on a different network. Well the voice part
will, because they tend to be not-simlocked, but all the advanced data
services won't, as the exact configuration is burned into the
firmware, which is carrier specific.

So the chances are good that OpenMoko phones will have WiFi before the
iPhone will be available in the UK are pretty good *g*

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Attila Csipa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 11:26]:
> On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:01, Renaissance Man wrote:
> > Truphone. You can take their software package, put it on the cheapest
> > supported WiFi/GSM enabled phone you can get and then you have a
> > phone that seamlessly swaps between WiFi and GSM with one phone number.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, did you actually try this ? I would be very curious to 
> find out how do they accomplish this from a technical standpoint. A sort of 
> auto-redial via GSM I can understand, but _seamless_ switching without 
> carrier assist (not to mention the delays of connection establishing) is 
> quite a feat if they can do it.

It's basically "trivial". You get one number, that rings on different
numbers. It rings once on the sipphone, and once on the GSM part.
If the phone is clever, it will prefer to make the connection via sip.

The actual implementation can be tricky, but this kind of things are
already being done. Especially, the question is who is paying for the
GSM termination fees. (It might mean that you basically switch back to
a mobile-user-pays-for-receiving-calls model)

E.g. C't two years ago or so explained a setup where with certain
german networks one could achieve a landline number that forwards to a
mobile without the expensive mobile termination costs. (the
termination fees are what makes calling mobiles expensive, at least in
Europe, and calling landlines basically near free, whereever)

What is cool about SIP based VoIP phones is the level of
experimentation and control that they allow, while at the same time
being non-geek compatible.

> 
> > The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones is
> > that they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually make
> > VoIP via WiFi easy. 
> 
> Why should they risk ? They are selling millions of handsets through 
> carriers, 
> and they sure don't want to lose those contracts. Take the iPhone, and let's
> see what would have happened if they 'got it'. Add some $ to counter the 
> costs of wifi (not just the HW itself, but for the whole feature), discard 
> the carrier subsidy and now you have a carrier free funky wifi don't leave 
> the country phone that has to be recharged daily and costs 800-1000$. Doesn't 
> impress me all that much. 

Well, it would be a really nice option, BUT that's the crux of this.
It strictly depends upon local conditions. If you can get city-wide
WiFi for GBP10, that's nice and be acceptable.

OTOH, I can get landline calls for 0-1 cent in Austria, even with
relative cheap calling plans. So any solution that centers around
converting this "call to landline" functionality to be able call other
destinations or accept calls is cool.

Calling plans in Germany works a little bit different, but are
comparable to the Austrian situation.

OTOH, there is no Wifi outside home for reasonable fees. Actually,
having seen a number of customers offices I wouldn't expect many
companies in Germany to use WiFi. And most corporate networks would be
not sip-compatible anyway, because they have only http-proxy level
access to the net.

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Sencer]

> Renaissance Man, reducing the success or the "revolutionary aspect"
> of openmoko to the aspect of Wifi is missing the point completely
> and utterly.

To suggest that that's what I'm doing is missing my point entirely.


O RLY? Let me quote what you wrote:


Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary
The reason is neither of them have VoIP via WiFi.


Reality distortion field in full effect...


Sencer

P.S.: Thanks for finally realising that it is better if you drop the
debate about including wifi in the first generation device. Be it
whether the fundamental point people having been trying to make to
you, got through, or because you decided to move on to cheerleading
and trolling for some other revolutionary product.

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:17 am, Sencer wrote:

Then for everbody's sake use the 350$ to buy two simple WiFi VOIP- 
phones, one for home, one for work and stop whining.


That won't make my communications easier, that just makes it more  
complicated. One way or another, probably within the next few months,  
I'm going to have one mobile communications device, with one phone  
number, that allows me to talk for free to my friends in London and  
family across the world when I'm in range of a freely accessible WiFi  
connection (which is much of the day).


Just wish it had been the Neo, because it's such a great product  
otherwise.


Renaissance Man, reducing the success or the "revolutionary aspect"  
of openmoko to the aspect of Wifi is missing the point completely  
and utterly.


To suggest that that's what I'm doing is missing my point entirely.

Now you say you are willing to sell body parts to get that feature.  
In my book that proves that you've completely lost it and do not  
operate from a reality-based world-view.


It's called a figure of speech.

Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Ted Lemon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 03:37]:
> On Jan 17, 2007, at 7:00 PM, David Schlesinger wrote:
> >The revolution evidently has a bunch of people who don't see that the value 
> >of half (or ninety-five one-hundredths) of a loaf exceeds that of no loaf at 
> >all.
> 
> I wouldn't take this very seriously.   Despite the lack of WiFi, which I 
> definitely agree is a minus, I am going to get one of these phones as soon as 
> I can.   The thing I'm paranoid 
> about right now is whether or not GPRS works over my t-mobile (US) network.   
> WiFi would be really nice, but it's by no means a deal-breaker.   Actually, 
> it probably means an extra

Well, if it's GSM+GPRS and nothing fancy, than yes. You need to figure
out the APN (access point name), but techs at the callcenter or your
current phone should give you that. (And if it's really T-mobile
built, not bought, the APN will almost certainly be the same as in
other T-Mobile networks).

That's it.

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* David Schlesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 03:42]:
> On 1/17/07 6:12 PM, "Renaissance Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On 18 Jan 2007, at 2:00 am, David Schlesinger wrote:
> > 
> >> You can go out and buy a Nokia 800 or a Sony Mylo today for the
> >> price of a NEO and do VoIP right this instant. If it's changed the
> >> world, I guess I must not have been paying attention.
> > 
> > No you don't appear to be reading correctly what I'm writing. It's GSM
> > +VoIP via WiFi. i.e. cheap mobile phones that people can communicate
> > cheaply with.
> 
> The NEO's not _cheap_, exactly: there was a recent survey of 1,800 recent
> purchasers of cell phones, and 21--not 21 _percent_, mind you, 21,
> period--paid over $400. Not many more paid as much as $350.

Well, I personally do consider it on my personal upper limit for a
smartphone. It's nicely priced, because most smartphones herearound
cost around that much when subventioned by the carrier. (depends upon
the plan).

> 
> But you'd have to be making a lot of expensive calls before a phone like the
> NEO would pay for itself on the basis of having VoIP capabilities.
> 
> (Oh, did I mention that the $350 wouldn't probably be $350 anymore...? You'd
> have to pay for the part, plus the new boards, new test cycle, etc., etc.,
> I'd guess we're talking about taking the cost to you, the end user, up to
> $400, $425, once everything's said and done. But it's okay: you'll have that
> extra six months to save up!)
> 
> >> Ditto.
> > 
> > Good, now understand that VoIP via WiFi + GSM is that killer app. See
> > previous email for more detail.
> 
> I really doubt that. Cheap phone service, out of the many scenarios I can
> envision for a more mobility-capable future, is one of the least
> interesting. I find identity-and-location-based services a lot more
> intriguing...

Exactly. Especially, because one can achieve cheap calls today without
resorting to VoIP on phones. see my other email, VoIP on the run, via
commercial hotspots is almost bound to be more expensive than simpler
solutions.

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 03:15]:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 2:00 am, David Schlesinger wrote:
> 
> >You can go out and buy a Nokia 800 or a Sony Mylo today for the price of a 
> >NEO and do VoIP right this instant. If it's changed the world, I guess I 
> >must not have been paying 
> >attention.
> 
> No you don't appear to be reading correctly what I'm writing. It's GSM+VoIP 
> via WiFi. i.e. cheap mobile phones that people can communicate cheaply with.
These are already existing, albeit they are highend phones currently.
> 
> >>I couldn't think of a better example of a killer app than sticking a
> >>piece of software on a device that lets people speak to each other around 
> >>the world effectively for free.
> >
> >Ditto.
> 
> Good, now understand that VoIP via WiFi + GSM is that killer app. See 
> previous email for more detail.
Nope it's not. VoIP is not a mobile phoning solution, it's a nomadic
phoning solution. The difference is startling, even if many seem not
to grasp it.

Basically, WiFi is not a setup-less protocol. Commercial (and many
non-commercial too) hotspots require you to log in. Plus there is now
way to be sure if the network connection is ok for VoIP (be it
firewalls, bandwidth problems, jerky connections).

So basically, it allows users that want to go through the pain to take
their landline with them, whereever (hispeed internet capable) they
are.

Please also consider that using hotspots on the run is quite
expensive. In my personal experience, I almost never bother. The only
times are when I need something to do latency free and/or I forgot to
bring my mobile-warrior pack with my laptop.

To put it bluntly, consider my poor guy, sitting in the Frankfurt/M
train station, wanting to call his wife in Austria. What is the
cheapest way to go at it? Hmm.

Calling directly from my German mobile ~60EUR per hour.
Calling from my Mobile via Calling card ~4.20EUR per hour.
Calling via "free" VoIP via hotspot 12EUR per hour. 

It's worse, because the first two options are billed per minute, while
the T-Mobile hotspot bills at 10 minute increments.

So a VoIP phone allows cheap calling where you've got a free hotspot.
E.g. at home. But at home, I can just use my landline directly to call
cheap. And everywhere I've got a landline, I can call the 0800 free
call dialin of my calling card provider.

So VoIP "as cheap call" feature helps only in a strictly limited
number of places: free hotspots without landlines that can be used to
call 0800.

E.g. some hotels have free WiFi. Good. But the same hotels have a
phone in every room that I can use for free to access a 0800 number.
Bad.

So, while it's cool, and it has many nice uses, I don't think that
VoIP/WiFi on a mobile is a killer feature.

Actually, I don't see that many other uses for WiFi on a phone either
(I don't use it much on my Nokia I admit).

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 2:37 am, David Schlesinger wrote:


The NEO's not _cheap_ ...


I was talking about value-for-money cheap, not capital cost. In this  
sense the Neo is cheap. I just happen to be in the market for a smart  
phone, but there's nothing in my argument that precludes someone  
making a plain unlocked phone with GSM/WiFi VoIP.


I really doubt that [near zero-cost mobile communication will be  
revolutionary] ... Cheap phone service ... is one of the least  
interesting ... When I worked at Apple, I had a sign up on my  
office for a while that read, "When the revolution comes, things  
will be _different_! (Not _better_, just_different_.)"


Well Steve Jobs talks about the iPod being a revolution, and the Mac.  
Neither of which were the first of their kind. They simply got the  
package right. That's what made them revolutionary.


Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 10:22 am, Attila Csipa wrote:


On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:01, Renaissance Man wrote:
The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones  
is that they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually  
make VoIP via WiFi easy.


Why should they risk? They are selling millions of handsets through  
carriers, and they sure don't want to lose those contracts.


And, as is often the case, someone else's risk is another's opportunity.

All your arguments against WiFi on the Neo seem a little moot, as  
it's pretty clear from what people are saying that it will have WiFi;  
it's just a matter of time.


I just wish it had been on the first model because I would have had  
all my needs fulfilled. As it stands I'm in the market for something  
else now, and may even end up with an iPhone if Apple includes VoIP  
via WiFi before OpenMoko. I wish this not just for my own selfish  
reasons but because I'd like to see an open product like OpenMoko bet  
out a closed product like iPhone (even though I'm a life-long Mac user).


Renaissance Man


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 02:20]:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:57 am, Richard Franks wrote:
> 
> >I disagree - VoIP via WiFi is an obvious evolution rather than revolutionary.
> 
> But you're looking at it from a geek's point of view instead of a typical 
> end-user's point of view.
> 
> Anything that allows me to go from spending £45 plus a month on mobile 
> communications to effectively zero, including talking to my parents who live 
> on the other side of the planet, is 
> revolutionary.

But you can do that already without VoIP. Believe me, because I'm a
little bit a professional nomad between Austria and Germany, so I know
the drill.

-) calling cards.
-) call forwarding from a landline.
-) dual-number SIMs (in Germany some carriers offer a landline number
for a mobile that is cheap if the mobile is in it's homezone, add to
this callforwarding to the real mobile which is free, you get a mobile
that is callable at landline prices)

Basically, offering plugins and support to use all these items easy in
everyday operation, you get your GBP45 => GBP5 revolution.

Actually, these options do have the benefit of working whereever I am,
while free (that's what you imply with GBP0) hotspots are not that
often.

> 
> >I don't think it's a 'killer app' either - in the terms of the phone 
> >manufacturer who is more likely to benefit from getting 6-12months lead and 
> >market share in an unexploited but 
> >growing market (Open Source Mobile Phones).
> 
> Killer app: "a computer program that is so useful or desirable that it proves 
> the value of some underlying technology"
> 
> I couldn't think of a better example of a killer app than sticking a piece of 
> software on a device that lets people speak to each other around the world 
> effectively for free.
But it does not. BTW, if you want just this feature, look for some of
the highend Nokia phones (they do have WiFi and sip client on one
piece of hardware *g*)
> 
> The revolution won't have people saying, oh man, I want one of those, because 
> it's open source. They'll be saying, oh man, I want one of those because I 
> can communicate with a mobile 
> device for a pittance (open source will simply be one way of doing it).

No, the revolution will be, when people will see what is possible
without having to pay to much attention to the carriers.

Believe, I've done very interesting things that people have deemed
impossible (well the techs at the carrier's hotline where shocked)
with a completly locked down Sidekick. You cannot believe how itchy
I'm to do redo some of my stuff properly.

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 02:08]:
> Well, call me when it has WiFi. I just don't think this thing's going to get 
> the start it should have got.

Well, it won't get a start no matter what endusers will buy/use it or
not. The first phase is where it's critical that all the itchy
developers get their hands on it. And most of these bitch only on low
volume about shortcomings. (WiFi, powered USB port, keyboard,
EDGE/UMTS support, ...)

btw, you can get WiFi if you desire so much, just use a battery
powered power injector and a WiFi USB stick.

> 
> I've now read the reasons for its exclusion, but having read Sean's marketing 
> PDF to the carriers one can't help but wonder if OpenMoko is just yet another 
> victim of the carrier 
> monopoly on mobile communications, which would beg the question: would WiFi 
> really ever come to the device?

Yes, the carrier monopoly game is sick. One often overlooked symptom
of this sickness is, that I've often found items that are cheaper to
me when I roam than to the native population.

E.g. some time ago, the German C't magazine suggested using prepaid
Italian SIMs for data access in Germany, as they were cheaper to use
than any plan offered in Germany. Other curiousities that have no
place in a market: Sending SMS with my German phone in Germany (no
roaming) is more expensive then sending them with my Austrian phon in
Germany (roaming).

So yes, the monopoly markets are bad for customers. And if one looks
nearer on them, they certainly show all kinds of warty symptoms of
monopolies.

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Gabriel Ambuehl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 08:44]:
> On Thursday 18 January 2007 02:05, Renaissance Man wrote:
> > I've now read the reasons for its exclusion, but having read Sean's
> > marketing PDF to the carriers one can't help but wonder if OpenMoko
> > is just yet another victim of the carrier monopoly on mobile
> > communications, which would beg the question: would WiFi really ever
> > come to the device?
> 
> Since you pay for the whole price, why would the carrier's have any say in 
> its 
> features?
Well, if you want to have some market penetration, you need to
consider it. The only alternative is to create such a great product
with the community, that non-geeks will pay cash for it. When they can
get other cool smartphones for free (because the carrier pay for it).

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Andreas Kostyrka]

* Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070118 01:49]:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:42 am, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
> 
> >Renaissance Man writes:
> >>Everything I've read says it doesn't have WiFi.
> >
> >It doesn't. But assuming it's a success, there will surely be a successor 
> >soon that does.
> 
> Or how about guarantee success by giving it WiFi. This is all it needs to be 
> a revolution from day one.
Not really. There are no acceptable WiFi solution for the Neo
currently (power consumption + open source driver), which means
requiring WiFi would imply waiting months or a year for the phone.

While I can certainly appreciate the value of a sipphone, and there
will probably be such a thing on the Neo, just BT based, instead of
Wifi, it's certainly not a killer feature.

Technically, the Neo is revolution, because it moves from "phones
itemized feature lists" as a comparision away. It basically gives the
enduser the possibility to do new features.

In fact, the Neo is revolutionary enough that I don't expect it to
come bundled by network operators in the next years.

Just the currently initial hardware gives way to much support for
"stupid" stuff (from the operators view) to cut into their revenues.

One new idea, because you've brought up VoIP. One nice thing with VoIP
providers is, that they usually let one change the call forwarding
target via a Website.

Now consider that (at least herearound) calls to landlines are cheap,
nearly free in most plans. Guess a phone that automatically changes
the forwarding target to the number you've dialed and dials a landline
number. Nothing that I couldn't do today with my Nokia. But it's
awkward. Intergrated into the normal dialer, that would make something
really useful.

Considering how cell operators at least in Europe are charging
unreasonable (up to 100x more expensive than from a landline) fees for
long distance calls, I can see how the above scenario must scare them.

Basically, what I'm trying to express here is, that there are many
many ways to "least-cost-route" calls. Not just VoIP. Especially,
considering that most hotspots need a webpage login, which would using
it costly and bothersome (without some cleverness on the phone).

Andreas

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Attila Csipa]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:01, Renaissance Man wrote:
> Truphone. You can take their software package, put it on the cheapest
> supported WiFi/GSM enabled phone you can get and then you have a
> phone that seamlessly swaps between WiFi and GSM with one phone number.

Just out of curiosity, did you actually try this ? I would be very curious to 
find out how do they accomplish this from a technical standpoint. A sort of 
auto-redial via GSM I can understand, but _seamless_ switching without 
carrier assist (not to mention the delays of connection establishing) is 
quite a feat if they can do it.

> The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones is
> that they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually make
> VoIP via WiFi easy. 

Why should they risk ? They are selling millions of handsets through carriers, 
and they sure don't want to lose those contracts. Take the iPhone, and let's 
see what would have happened if they 'got it'. Add some $ to counter the 
costs of wifi (not just the HW itself, but for the whole feature), discard 
the carrier subsidy and now you have a carrier free funky wifi don't leave 
the country phone that has to be recharged daily and costs 800-1000$. Doesn't 
impress me all that much. 


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 10:01, Renaissance Man wrote:
> The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones is
> that they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually make
> VoIP via WiFi easy. The only organisation that seems to get it is
> Truphone. You can take their software package, put it on the cheapest
> supported WiFi/GSM enabled phone you can get and then you have a
> phone that seamlessly swaps between WiFi and GSM with one phone number.


Nokia E Series is cheaper than a N80. As are many wifi enabled Winmobile 
phones. And considering that those two options are pretty much the ONLY WiFi 
phones actually shipping Truphone is kinda besides the point for anyone but 
Nokia N Series users.


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Sencer]

On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Most of my phone calls are made at work and home, both of which
already have WiFi,


Then for everbody's sake use the 350$ to buy two simple WiFi
VOIP-phones, one for home, one for work and stop whining. Here for
example:
http://www.voipsupply.com/product_info.php?products_id=802
Even after getting two VOIP-phones, you'll still have 110$ left over
to get a cheap gsm phone even.

If you think openmoko is all about starting a hardware-revolution,
you're in the wrong place, sorry. openmoko is the software-platform.
FIC (and in the future hopefully others as I understand it) are
building the phones. There will eventually be all kinds of different
hardware configurations, I expect. From Everything and the kitchen
sink, to economic models.

Being the first to offer something also has very, very little to do
with whether you're going to get big market share, especially if it is
something that is so relatively "easily" (from an "innovation POV)
copied as a wifi-chip. And as soon as the manufacturers with greater
market penetration introduce a device with the exact same feature that
you claimed would differentiate your own device, you've completely
lost. As has been said before, the revolutionary aspects of the
openmoko lie in providing an open software platform - while that is
not a direct feature to regular users, it enables many, many
positives. linux is not the number one server-os on the internet,
because everybody using it needed the sources to hack on the kernel,
sure, but having everything open enabled many of the benefits that did
finally lead to success (stability, security, extensebility,
compatibility, wide variety of software etc.).


Renaissance Man, reducing the success or the "revolutionary aspect" of
openmoko to the aspect of Wifi is missing the point completely and
utterly. I made this comparison the other day on irc, it's like (let
me be very loose here with the historical facts to make a point) the
french revolution is starting with the goal to establish the first
democracy in the contemporary western world, and then there's guys
bitching that they are using pitchforks, when they could be using
trebuchets or slingshots, and how therefor that whole revolution is a
lost cause and not worth taking part in.


You also seem to lack the capacity to understand the fundamental
argument people are making. _Nobody_ is saying wifi is useless or
unimportant. That is not the question, but it seems to be the only
thing you're ever answering. (Just about) _Everybody_ (certainly
including the openmoko and FIC people) would prefer to have Wifi _if_
everything else was equal. Now that last qualifier is the fundamental
argument you seem to be missing: "if everthing else was equal". Here's
a message from the reality-based world: Reality doesn't work that way.
Everything has trade-offs, and that point has been repeatedly made
above, and has been ignored by you. Adding wifi to the first
generation device would come at a very very high cost, certainly now,
that the decision has already been made for a while, but to a similar
degree even at the point the decision was made. Do you understand the
concept of cost? And it's not just monetary cost I am talking about.
Let me illustrate it: Another absolutly revolutionary feature that
would make everybody want to buy the phone would be to have a star
trek like transporter and replicator. It would be endlessly cool, you
would just beam over and talk face to face saving a whole bunch of
money. Not to mention the savings on food. However on the "cost-side"
it would mean that the time to market for the device would have just
been lengthened by an indeterminate amount of time. Now, when it comes
to make the decision you have to decide, you have to weigh the plus
and minus side. While the plus side is alsmost "cool to infinity", the
minus side makes any reasonable person think: "well, let's not worry
about those features now, and get the revolution going first, we can
always add replicators and transporters later."

Now, if you insist on keeping this discussion about adding wifi to the
1st gen. device going, at least make an effort to answer to people's
arguments about the trade-offs and cost involved.   From your answers
it seems as if adding wifi only comes at the cost of raising the
end-price for a few bucks. Evidently that is patently "false" (or
rather incomplete). It would also mean:
- higher price (as mentioned)
- higher energy usage, less standby time
- all the time spent on getting wifi to work, is time that the
developers cannot spend on any of the other cool features of the
software
- all the time getting a proper VOIP application working is time that
the developers cannot spend on any of the other cool features of the
software
- no devices for many interested developers for an additional few months
- no other people starting to write cool software for an additional few months
- no testing from end-users for an add

Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Sean Moss-Pultz]

On 1/18/07 3:37 AM, "David Schlesinger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> The NEO's not _cheap_, exactly: there was a recent survey of 1,800 recent
> purchasers of cell phones, and 21--not 21 _percent_, mind you, 21,
> period--paid over $400. Not many more paid as much as $350.

In our defense, those phones are carrier subsidized. This makes a huge
difference. Try to walk into a store in the States and buy a device without
a contract. You'll know what I mean.

-Sean 


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Sean Moss-Pultz]

On 1/18/07 2:41 AM, "Mike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At first, the geek perspective is "oh man I want one of those because
> it's open source", true. But tomorrow the general public's perspective
> may be "Oh man I want one of those because I can run CommunitasticoMoko
> 1.0."  You may ask, what's CommunitasticoMoko going to do?  Beats the
> hell out of me, and that's the point.

Great comment. This is _exactly_ what makes me so excited about this device,
too!

-Sean


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 7:41 am, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote:


On Thursday 18 January 2007 00:09, Renaissance Man wrote:
Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the  
mobile communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is  
the killer app.


WiFi enabled Nokia E Series can do that. As can do many Winmobile  
devices. "no organization that gets it" is hardly true.


Thanks for cutting off my last paragraph:

"Well there is one organisation but they don't make hardware. They  
even offer a one phone number solution for VoIP/Cell too:  
truphone.com" (which works with the Nokia E Series and N80s, as I  
mentioned)


The problem with the Nokia E Series, N80s, and Windows smartphones is  
that they're either very expensive and/or they don't actually make  
VoIP via WiFi easy. The only organisation that seems to get it is  
Truphone. You can take their software package, put it on the cheapest  
supported WiFi/GSM enabled phone you can get and then you have a  
phone that seamlessly swaps between WiFi and GSM with one phone number.


Truphone get it. Nobody else does yet.

Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 18.01.2007 um 08:47 schrieb Gabriel Ambuehl:


On Thursday 18 January 2007 07:39, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I don't know what it is about the guy who posted this thread, but  
I really
think that he's got some sort of talent for getting people  
talking.  I


Well, my impression was that the second post was very provocative in  
the sense:


"This is not innovative unless there is abc. And I need abc.".

This presses a button on human psychology (especially engineers) to  
defend
our own view and explain why they already are interested and see it  
as innovation

without abc or discuss why abc is not so important.

Basically it is a fight about importance of a feature. And there,  
everybody has a
different view and opinion - you can't measure it without having  
people discuss.


And, as a former product manager I have learned that you simply can't  
judge
the importance of a single feature. It is always the combination and  
relative

importance at a certain timeframe for a certain target group willing
to pay a maximum total price or cost of ownership.

And all this depends on the degree of innovativeness you want to give  
a product.


Apple e.g. decided to be very innovative (in the perceptions of the  
world press)
and add 4/8GB flash, probably 256MB RAM a device position sensor but  
leave
out the GPS receiver, have an average display resolution and have the  
battery
not replaceable. And worst: not have an open platform. The result of  
this is the

$499/$599 price tag.

Is this now more or less inovative?

Usually, as a company you learn from such discussions and then you  
have to simply
(well, it isn't in reality) make a decision to add the feature now or  
in the next generation.


Now, this was some "Meta"-statement, not an answer...

So, let's cross fingers that the devices appear soon (whichever level  
they have - the next

release will be better) and start developing new things.

Nikolaus Schaller

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 07:39, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I don't know what it is about the guy who posted this thread, but I really
> think that he's got some sort of talent for getting people talking.  I
> posted a similar idea only yesterday that received no replies.  Could
> someone brief me on why the same idea gets so much feedback from the list?

Flamebaits like the above have a tendency to do that


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 00:09, Renaissance Man wrote:
> The reason is neither of them have VoIP via WiFi.
>
> Who do I talk to ask them to include WiFi connectivity with the
> OpenMoko? I'll sell my body parts to get hold of such a device.
>
> Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the mobile
> communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is the
> killer app.

WiFi enabled Nokia E Series can do that. As can do many Winmobile devices. "no 
organization that gets it" is hardly true..


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 02:05, Renaissance Man wrote:
> I've now read the reasons for its exclusion, but having read Sean's
> marketing PDF to the carriers one can't help but wonder if OpenMoko
> is just yet another victim of the carrier monopoly on mobile
> communications, which would beg the question: would WiFi really ever
> come to the device?

Since you pay for the whole price, why would the carrier's have any say in its 
features?


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Attila Csipa]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 02:59, Renaissance Man wrote:
> > you seem to have worse autonomy
>
> No, because you'll still have GSM, and WiFi actually ensures the
> carriers lose control over you.

Bad wording, was referring to power outlet independance.

>> worse coverage
>No, you'll have better coverage, as you'll have the potential to use  
>WiFi when there's no GSM coverage.

Look, it's like saying every phone should come with a shortwave transmitter. 
It would give you a perfectly carrier+moneywise free, several hundred km 
range ! Great idea on paper, but that's about it.

> > extra HW cost, bluetooth interference, limited and country-specific
> > list of channels,
> ???

From wikipedia:

The frequencies for 802.11 b/g span 2.400 GHz to 2.487 GHz. Each channel is 22 
MHz wide and there is a 5 MHz step to the next higher channel.

Spectrum assignments and operational limitations are not consistent worldwide; 
most of Europe allows for an additional 2 channels beyond those permitted in 
the US (1-13 vs 1-11); Japan has one more on top of that (1-14) - and some 
countries, like Spain, prohibit use of the lower-numbered channels. 
Furthermore some countries, such as Italy, used to require a 'general 
authorization' for any Wi-Fi used outside an operator's own premises, or 
require something akin to an operator registration.

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Attila Csipa]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 02:17, Renaissance Man wrote:
> Anything that allows me to go from spending £45 plus a month on
> mobile communications to effectively zero, including talking to my
> parents who live on the other side of the planet, is revolutionary.

Don't forget that carriers have PLENTY of headroom on their prices and they 
happen to control their networks. So, if things get rough, and you do come up 
with a _vastly_ popular scheme to do cheaper communications (can't underline 
how vast this must be), they will accomodate. They will introduce new 
dialplans, might lock such FreeFi capable phones out and subsidize their 
phones even harder, etc. So the money potential you see here is just a result 
of their business plan, it isn't inherent in the WiFi+VoIP technology, and 
that's the KEY on this issue (you're just taking a shortcut, GSM really is 
far better suited for voice+phones). Business plans can be changed in an 
hour, hardware cannot, and that's where many telecom battles are lost.

Actually, for me ATM it's FAR cheaper to buy a GSM module (they cost <50 euros 
nowadays), hook it up to my PC and declare it a family member number 
(=covered by flat rate subscription) and I could talk to Japan 3 hours a day 
without any extra cost. And wham - a simple ancient tech GSM link that is 
cheaper to operate than a WiFi capable phone, just by having a family member 
number dialplan. You will lose weeks and months making the WiFi hardware, 
testing the software and it went down in flames in the minute a carrier 
decided to make/change a dialplan. So WiFi from a business standpoint is good 
only where GSM can't go - and thats endless megabits in ethernet traffic, not 
voice (if you have it, cool, but it's not worth JUST for VoIP).

What I don't get is why do you need WiFi (as in 801.b/g) for all of this, and 
why you cannot do this (in a work/home scenario) with Bluetooth as it is now? 
I understand the pleas of people who have poor GSM coverage, but they will 
always have to live with the technology that is available in the mainstream 
and accomodate to the environment they're in, just as I have to accomodate 
that the nearest WiFi hotspot is 300km+ away :)

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[andy]

> On Jan 17, 2007, at 7:37 PM, David Schlesinger wrote:
>> The NEO's not _cheap_, exactly: there was a recent survey of 1,800
>> recent
>> purchasers of cell phones, and 21--not 21 _percent_, mind you, 21,
>> period--paid over $400. Not many more paid as much as $350.
>
> To me what differentiates the NEO from a typical $400 phone is that
> when you've plunked down your money for a typical phone, you're locked
> into your provider (this is how it is in the U.S. - I know it's
> different in at least parts of Europe).   On top of that, if there's
> anything you don't like about your phone, that's too bad, because when
> they fix the problem in the next release, the only way you're going to
> get it is to buy the new phone.   Compared to the OpenMoko situation
> where even if you aren't a geek yourself, at least when some annoying
> UI glitch gets fixed, you can update your software.
>
> Also, since you're paying for the phone, not your provider, you are
> the customer, not your provider.   I currently have a Samsung t809,
> which is a D820 flashed with t-mobile's firmware.   The phone is
> supposed to be really nice - it has an MP3 player, for example, and
> bluetooth, and supports EDGE as well as GPRS.   But none of the
> features that I wanted actually work.
>
> I can't use a stereo bluetooth headset on it, because the version of
> the firmware t-mobile ships doesn't support that.   So the mp3 player
> is useless.
>
> The apps on the Samsung don't interface with my PIM on my laptop, so I
> can't update the phone book on the phone - it's a dead end data
> store.   When I lose the phone, I have to re-enter all that data.
> The calendar isn't interoperable, so same problem.   The AIM client
> uses SMS, so it's $0.10/message, even though I'm paying for unlimited
> GPRS/EDGE.   The PPP implementation doesn't work with my laptop, so I
> can't even use GPRS/EDGE for anything except from my Nokia 770, which
> I usually don't carry.
>
> So yes, not many people have bought expensive phones.   Why?
> Because, by design, they suck.   The customer is the provider, not the
> user.   So whether you're into open source or not, the OpenMoko/NEO
> phone is a much more attractive value proposition.   When a product
> isn't selling well, it might be because it costs more than the market
> will bear, but it's also possible that it just sucks, and so nobody
> wants it.
>
> It really will be interesting to see what happens with the NEO.   I
> think we will learn a lot.
>

I don't know what it is about the guy who posted this thread, but I really
think that he's got some sort of talent for getting people talking.  I
posted a similar idea only yesterday that received no replies.  Could
someone brief me on why the same idea gets so much feedback from the list?

However, I now fully understand the reasons for Sean omitting wifi, and
consider his arguments to be quite sensible.  I would be put off having a
feature packed phone that wouldn't last longer than three hours, but
having a phone that does everything I can currently do - but better - and
with the potential of wifi integration on the developers mind... yes. That
is a good phone, and many congratulations to whoever is making these
decisions to stick with them.  Good Project management.



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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Ted Lemon]

On Jan 17, 2007, at 7:37 PM, David Schlesinger wrote:
The NEO's not _cheap_, exactly: there was a recent survey of 1,800  
recent

purchasers of cell phones, and 21--not 21 _percent_, mind you, 21,
period--paid over $400. Not many more paid as much as $350.


To me what differentiates the NEO from a typical $400 phone is that  
when you've plunked down your money for a typical phone, you're locked  
into your provider (this is how it is in the U.S. - I know it's  
different in at least parts of Europe).   On top of that, if there's  
anything you don't like about your phone, that's too bad, because when  
they fix the problem in the next release, the only way you're going to  
get it is to buy the new phone.   Compared to the OpenMoko situation  
where even if you aren't a geek yourself, at least when some annoying  
UI glitch gets fixed, you can update your software.


Also, since you're paying for the phone, not your provider, you are  
the customer, not your provider.   I currently have a Samsung t809,  
which is a D820 flashed with t-mobile's firmware.   The phone is  
supposed to be really nice - it has an MP3 player, for example, and  
bluetooth, and supports EDGE as well as GPRS.   But none of the  
features that I wanted actually work.


I can't use a stereo bluetooth headset on it, because the version of  
the firmware t-mobile ships doesn't support that.   So the mp3 player  
is useless.


The apps on the Samsung don't interface with my PIM on my laptop, so I  
can't update the phone book on the phone - it's a dead end data  
store.   When I lose the phone, I have to re-enter all that data.
The calendar isn't interoperable, so same problem.   The AIM client  
uses SMS, so it's $0.10/message, even though I'm paying for unlimited  
GPRS/EDGE.   The PPP implementation doesn't work with my laptop, so I  
can't even use GPRS/EDGE for anything except from my Nokia 770, which  
I usually don't carry.


So yes, not many people have bought expensive phones.   Why?
Because, by design, they suck.   The customer is the provider, not the  
user.   So whether you're into open source or not, the OpenMoko/NEO  
phone is a much more attractive value proposition.   When a product  
isn't selling well, it might be because it costs more than the market  
will bear, but it's also possible that it just sucks, and so nobody  
wants it.


It really will be interesting to see what happens with the NEO.   I  
think we will learn a lot.



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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[David Schlesinger]

On 1/17/07 6:12 PM, "Renaissance Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 2:00 am, David Schlesinger wrote:
> 
>> You can go out and buy a Nokia 800 or a Sony Mylo today for the
>> price of a NEO and do VoIP right this instant. If it's changed the
>> world, I guess I must not have been paying attention.
> 
> No you don't appear to be reading correctly what I'm writing. It's GSM
> +VoIP via WiFi. i.e. cheap mobile phones that people can communicate
> cheaply with.

The NEO's not _cheap_, exactly: there was a recent survey of 1,800 recent
purchasers of cell phones, and 21--not 21 _percent_, mind you, 21,
period--paid over $400. Not many more paid as much as $350.

But you'd have to be making a lot of expensive calls before a phone like the
NEO would pay for itself on the basis of having VoIP capabilities.

(Oh, did I mention that the $350 wouldn't probably be $350 anymore...? You'd
have to pay for the part, plus the new boards, new test cycle, etc., etc.,
I'd guess we're talking about taking the cost to you, the end user, up to
$400, $425, once everything's said and done. But it's okay: you'll have that
extra six months to save up!)

>> Ditto.
> 
> Good, now understand that VoIP via WiFi + GSM is that killer app. See
> previous email for more detail.

I really doubt that. Cheap phone service, out of the many scenarios I can
envision for a more mobility-capable future, is one of the least
interesting. I find identity-and-location-based services a lot more
intriguing...

When I worked at Apple, I had a sign up on my office for a while that read,
"When the revolution comes, things will be _different_! (Not _better_, just
_different_.)"



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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Ted Lemon]

On Jan 17, 2007, at 7:00 PM, David Schlesinger wrote:
The revolution evidently has a bunch of people who don't see that  
the value of half (or ninety-five one-hundredths) of a loaf exceeds  
that of no loaf at all.


I wouldn't take this very seriously.   Despite the lack of WiFi, which  
I definitely agree is a minus, I am going to get one of these phones  
as soon as I can.   The thing I'm paranoid about right now is whether  
or not GPRS works over my t-mobile (US) network.   WiFi would be  
really nice, but it's by no means a deal-breaker.   Actually, it  
probably means an extra sale when the WiFi-capable phone comes out  
next year.   I'm sure I can find someone on whom to pawn off the non- 
WiFi phone.   :')



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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Dimitris Kogias]

What makes OpenMoko disruptive where the iPhone may not be is not WiFi
or VoIP per se.

The key ingredient is the control of one's personal public access
handle.  Where voice is concerned that's your phone number.  Even in
locales where number portability is available, the list of players among
which you can move that public handle is limited.

OpenMoko makes it possible to increase that pool significantly because,
through openness, it enables interesting signaling mechanisms.  I want
to make my telephone number be more like my DNS domains:

- Cost ridiculously less than a PSTN number costs today; practically free.
- Be as completely under my control as possible.

As far as voice is concerned, that's what makes OpenMoko interesting to
me.  It's not [the lack of] any particular technology, it's control.

D.

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 2:00 am, David Schlesinger wrote:

You can go out and buy a Nokia 800 or a Sony Mylo today for the  
price of a NEO and do VoIP right this instant. If it's changed the  
world, I guess I must not have been paying attention.


No you don't appear to be reading correctly what I'm writing. It's GSM 
+VoIP via WiFi. i.e. cheap mobile phones that people can communicate  
cheaply with.



I couldn't think of a better example of a killer app than sticking a
piece of software on a device that lets people speak to each other  
around the world effectively for free.


Ditto.


Good, now understand that VoIP via WiFi + GSM is that killer app. See  
previous email for more detail.


Renaissance Man


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 1:29 am, Attila Csipa wrote:


Could you share with us WHY do you think that is the killer app ?


Because I can cut my telecommunications bill practically down to  
zero. Most of my phone calls are made at work and home, both of which  
already have WiFi, but then there's also The Cloud in London, which  
is city-wide hotspots for about £10/mth.


From what I see, VoIP via WiFi in phones/PDAs is the re-creation of  
GSM technology but without the phone-orientedness of GSM networks.


No, with VoIP via WiFi, GSM simply becomes the more expensive  
supplement to WiFi, to ensure mobility.



you seem to have worse autonomy


No, because you'll still have GSM, and WiFi actually ensures the  
carriers lose control over you.



worse coverage


No, you'll have better coverage, as you'll have the potential to use  
WiFi when there's no GSM coverage.


extra HW cost, bluetooth interference, limited and country-specific  
list of channels,


???


 but hey you have the extra bandwidth you will never need for VoIP !


No, you have already-paid-for bandwidth for VoIP and video.


Pricewise, it's bust again.


Calling my friends in London and my parents across the world for free  
from a mobile phone really is cheaper than my current arrangement, I  
can assure you.



No carrier will subsidise such phones


Another positive. Finally their grip will be loosened. The economics  
are rather obvious if you ask me. It would take well under a year for  
me to start saving money if I went out today and purchased an  
unlocked Nokia N80, put Truphone on it: http://truphone.com and got  
some prepay GSM.


Renaissance Man
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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[David Schlesinger]

On 1/17/07 5:17 PM, "Renaissance Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:57 am, Richard Franks wrote:
> 
>> I disagree - VoIP via WiFi is an obvious evolution rather than
>> revolutionary.
> 
> But you're looking at it from a geek's point of view instead of a
> typical end-user's point of view.
> 
> Anything that allows me to go from spending £45 plus a month on
> mobile communications to effectively zero, including talking to my
> parents who live on the other side of the planet, is revolutionary.

You can go out and buy a Nokia 800 or a Sony Mylo today for the price of a
NEO and do VoIP right this instant. If it's changed the world, I guess I
must not have been paying attention.

> Killer app: "a computer program that is so useful or desirable that
> it proves the value of some underlying technology"

See above. Nobody's killed, or died, over a Nokia web tablet (something
which can't evidently be said about Nintendo game consoles...)

> I couldn't think of a better example of a killer app than sticking a
> piece of software on a device that lets people speak to each other
> around the world effectively for free.

Ditto.

> The revolution won't have people saying, oh man, I want one of those,
> because it's open source. They'll be saying, oh man, I want one of
> those because I can communicate with a mobile device for a pittance
> (open source will simply be one way of doing it).

Okay. As much as I hate to inject any sort of air of reality into these
proceedings...

The revolution evidently has a bunch of people who don't see that the value
of half (or ninety-five one-hundredths) of a loaf exceeds that of no loaf at
all.

As has been noted, it's a lot easier to post an email message saying, "Just
add Wifi!" as though it were some sort of syrupy substance you could pour
into a tank on the device, but there's actually more to it than that.

"Just adding WiFi" affects power management at a hardware level
significantly, for starts--that WiFi additive stuff doesn't help your
mileage a bit--not to mention complexifying your entire board layout, which
is doubtless cramped to begin with. Do you understand that rerouting and
retesting a board, retooling an assembly line, updating unit-level testing
(you want this to _work_, right...?), etc., etc. all takes time...?

It does. A bunch of time. Not to mention going back to square one on any
regulatory certifications you have in the works, etc., etc., etc...

So, I doubt "just adding some WiFi" would have the effect on the schedule of
"just adding a month". I'd put my money on it adding four to six of 'em.

Is it worth waiting for? I dunno. If you want VoIP that badly, buy the 800.

I'd like to have this line of discussion officially declared "silly",
please.


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[hank williams]

On 1/17/07, Attila Csipa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Thursday 18 January 2007 00:09, Renaissance Man wrote:
> Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the mobile
> communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is the
> killer app.

Could you share with us WHY do you think that is the killer app ? (for
DATA
applications, I understand, but specifically for VOICE) From what I see,
VoIP
via WiFi in phones/PDAs is the re-creation of GSM technology but without
the
phone-orientedness of GSM networks. Technology wise, you seem to have
worse
autonomy, worse coverage, extra HW cost, bluetooth interference, limited
and
country-specific list of channels, but hey you have the extra bandwidth
you
will never need for VoIP ! Pricewise, it's bust again. No carrier will
subsidise such phones, thus they will be more expensive (defeating the
purpose of being cheaper) and even if they would, with different dialplans
and GSM gateways, the price difference becomes really slim. VoIP might
come
into play if you had 3G bandwidths, but again, price works against you
except
for the most expansive direct calls to the other side of the world. Of
course, all of this from my local perspective, maybe in the UK it's
different :)



You are absolutely right. I just didnt have the energy to type all of that.
Glad you did!

Hank

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Ted Lemon]

On Jan 17, 2007, at 5:57 PM, Richard Franks wrote:

I disagree - VoIP via WiFi is an obvious evolution rather than
revolutionary. I don't think it's a 'killer app' either - in the terms
of the phone manufacturer who is more likely to benefit from getting
6-12months lead and market share in an unexploited but growing market
(Open Source Mobile Phones).


Hm.   I think that an open source phone is pretty revolutionary too,  
and I'm looking forward to it.   I'd just like to point out that you  
actually get some bang for your buck on VOIP even with a bluetooth  
phone.   It won't work at Starbucks, which is a shame, but it will  
work when you're at home, because you can get networking over  
bluetooth from your computer.


So you very much can do VOIP calling on an OpenMoko phone if the  
software gets written.   And when a new phone comes out with WiFi, the  
software *will* work at Starbucks.   Although I suspect it'll burn the  
battery something fierce, so it might not be all that useful.   But  
yeah, in theory, if it all works reasonably well, this would be really  
nice.


One thing to bear in mind is that at least for me, the ability to have  
a bluetooth headset is pretty important.   So if the WiFi nukes the  
bluetooth, that makes it pretty much worthless.


I do actually tend to think that a hybrid WiFi/GSM phone that isn't  
locked to a carrier *is* revolutionary, but it doesn't have to be the  
first product out of the gate, either.



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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Mike]

Renaissance Man wrote:

On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:57 am, Richard Franks wrote:

I disagree - VoIP via WiFi is an obvious evolution rather than 
revolutionary.


But you're looking at it from a geek's point of view instead of a 
typical end-user's point of view.


Anything that allows me to go from spending £45 plus a month on mobile 
communications to effectively zero, including talking to my parents who 
live on the other side of the planet, is revolutionary.


I don't think it's a 'killer app' either - in the terms of the phone 
manufacturer who is more likely to benefit from getting 6-12months 
lead and market share in an unexploited but growing market (Open 
Source Mobile Phones).


Killer app: "a computer program that is so useful or desirable that it 
proves the value of some underlying technology"


I couldn't think of a better example of a killer app than sticking a 
piece of software on a device that lets people speak to each other 
around the world effectively for free.


The revolution won't have people saying, oh man, I want one of those, 
because it's open source. They'll be saying, oh man, I want one of those 
because I can communicate with a mobile device for a pittance (open 
source will simply be one way of doing it).


Renaissance Man


I mostly agree with this guy...

But I have to say that the OSS nature of the openmoko may breed entirely 
new killer apps that you, nor anyone on this list, has imagined.  And 
that's the beauty of opening something up, and that's revolutionary.


At first, the geek perspective is "oh man I want one of those because 
it's open source", true. But tomorrow the general public's perspective 
may be "Oh man I want one of those because I can run CommunitasticoMoko 
1.0."  You may ask, what's CommunitasticoMoko going to do?  Beats the 
hell out of me, and that's the point.


Remember, everything big starts with the geeks being way so into it, 
loving it.  Like for example, oh I don't know, how about computers, the 
internet, phones, electricity.


So, wifi voip would be a killer app. But I'll bet there's other killer 
apps in the pool of possiblities.





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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Renaissance Man writes:
>On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:57 am, Richard Franks wrote:
>
>> I disagree - VoIP via WiFi is an obvious evolution rather than  
>> revolutionary.
>
>But you're looking at it from a geek's point of view instead of a  
>typical end-user's point of view.

Around here, a typical end-user won't have even heard of wifi, let
alone have a concept of a phone that can do it.

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Attila Csipa]

On Thursday 18 January 2007 00:09, Renaissance Man wrote:
> Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the mobile
> communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is the
> killer app.

Could you share with us WHY do you think that is the killer app ? (for DATA 
applications, I understand, but specifically for VOICE) From what I see, VoIP 
via WiFi in phones/PDAs is the re-creation of GSM technology but without the 
phone-orientedness of GSM networks. Technology wise, you seem to have worse 
autonomy, worse coverage, extra HW cost, bluetooth interference, limited and 
country-specific list of channels, but hey you have the extra bandwidth you 
will never need for VoIP ! Pricewise, it's bust again. No carrier will 
subsidise such phones, thus they will be more expensive (defeating the 
purpose of being cheaper) and even if they would, with different dialplans 
and GSM gateways, the price difference becomes really slim. VoIP might come 
into play if you had 3G bandwidths, but again, price works against you except 
for the most expansive direct calls to the other side of the world. Of 
course, all of this from my local perspective, maybe in the UK it's 
different :)

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:57 am, Richard Franks wrote:

I disagree - VoIP via WiFi is an obvious evolution rather than  
revolutionary.


But you're looking at it from a geek's point of view instead of a  
typical end-user's point of view.


Anything that allows me to go from spending £45 plus a month on  
mobile communications to effectively zero, including talking to my  
parents who live on the other side of the planet, is revolutionary.


I don't think it's a 'killer app' either - in the terms of the  
phone manufacturer who is more likely to benefit from getting  
6-12months lead and market share in an unexploited but growing  
market (Open Source Mobile Phones).


Killer app: "a computer program that is so useful or desirable that  
it proves the value of some underlying technology"


I couldn't think of a better example of a killer app than sticking a  
piece of software on a device that lets people speak to each other  
around the world effectively for free.


The revolution won't have people saying, oh man, I want one of those,  
because it's open source. They'll be saying, oh man, I want one of  
those because I can communicate with a mobile device for a pittance  
(open source will simply be one way of doing it).


Renaissance Man
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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

Well, call me when it has WiFi. I just don't think this thing's going  
to get the start it should have got.


I've now read the reasons for its exclusion, but having read Sean's  
marketing PDF to the carriers one can't help but wonder if OpenMoko  
is just yet another victim of the carrier monopoly on mobile  
communications, which would beg the question: would WiFi really ever  
come to the device?


Renaissance Man

On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:57 am, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:


At the moment, day one looks to be sometime between now and March.
Adding wifi at this point would add months to that.  I'd much rather
get the phone without wifi now, than wait.  Yes, I'm impatient.



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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Alexander McLeay]

On 1/18/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:42 am, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> Renaissance Man writes:
>> Everything I've read says it doesn't have WiFi.
>
> It doesn't. But assuming it's a success, there will surely be a
> successor soon that does.

Or how about guarantee success by giving it WiFi. This is all it
needs to be a revolution from day one.


Sean has already said they won't be putting binary modules into the
OpenMoko kernel, and that he hasn't been able to find a low-powered
device with free Linux drivers. It's a pity, but hopefully it will
change sooner rather than later. I very much doubt strongly worded
messages to this list will have *any* impact on it.

The revolutionary aspects of the OpenMoko are in terms of it's
openness, not it's mo(bile)ko(mmunication)ness.

--
Alexander.

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Renaissance Man writes:
>On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:42 am, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>
>> Renaissance Man writes:
>>> Everything I've read says it doesn't have WiFi.
>>
>> It doesn't. But assuming it's a success, there will surely be a  
>> successor soon that does.
>
>Or how about guarantee success by giving it WiFi. This is all it  
>needs to be a revolution from day one.

At the moment, day one looks to be sometime between now and March.
Adding wifi at this point would add months to that.  I'd much rather
get the phone without wifi now, than wait.  Yes, I'm impatient.

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Richard Franks]

On 1/17/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The reason is neither of them have VoIP via WiFi.

Who do I talk to ask them to include WiFi connectivity with the
OpenMoko? I'll sell my body parts to get hold of such a device.

Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the mobile
communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is the
killer app.


I disagree - VoIP via WiFi is an obvious evolution rather than
revolutionary. I don't think it's a 'killer app' either - in the terms
of the phone manufacturer who is more likely to benefit from getting
6-12months lead and market share in an unexploited but growing market
(Open Source Mobile Phones).

I think that market is going to be revolutionary, and we'll see the
innovation occur upon the Neo1973 first simply because it's going to
be the first of these new toys to play with.

Look at the way that Linux patches come out faster and more
efficiently than Windows patches do - this market situation will
become increasingly bleak for the existing large phone manufacturers
as their old business model won't be able to create and distribute new
features or applications or games as quickly to their proprietary
handsets.

Think about how many geeks ever wanted to own and program their own
Tricorder ;-)

Wifi is going to be great, but the revolution will have already
started upon an Open Source foundation by the time it comes.

Richard

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Corey]

On Wednesday 17 January 2007 17:40, Renaissance Man wrote:
> It doesn't have the one thing it needs to be a revolution.
> 

The revolution will break out when FIC releases the second version of the
OpenMoko hardware, which I wouldn't be all too surprised if it happens
before the end of the year. Until then, the revolution will still be a bit 
under-
ground during a slight incubation period while all us mad hackers start
going wild on this new 99.9% completely open platform.

Any revolution begins with a groundswell of grassroots effort which broils
beneath the surface of the current status quo. Although I had some lingering
hopes for TrollTech's GreenPhone, I think OpenMoko is going to be the primary
catalyst and the harbringer of change in the hand-held communications sector.

Patience my friend, patience.

(c8=


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

Er, and no GSM. The Nokia 800 is as worthless as the iPhone and Neo.

In fact the answer is the Nokia N80 and Truphone:
http://www.truphone.com/

But the reason I wrote is because I think the iPhone and OpenMoko Neo  
are great products (much more potential than the Nokia N80), except  
that they both drop the ball.


I was so disappointed to find out the iPhone didn't support VoIP via  
WiFi. And then I saw this this article and the photos:
http://www.libervis.com/article/ 
forget_iphone_hail_openmoko_the_true_revolution
...and I thought, "yah, I bet you it's got WiFi too!" ...but it  
doesn't. It doesn't have the one thing it needs to be a revolution.


Renaissance Man

On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:24 am, Paul Watkins wrote:


Try the Nokia 800 Tablet -- Linux OS, WiFi, VOIP


On 1/17/07, Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 17 Jan 2007, at 11:29 pm, Alexander Steinert wrote:

> They got it.

Who got it?

> But VoIPoWLAN as the *only* speech channel is no killer app, IMHO.
> It's VoIPoWLAN + GSM.

Yeah that's what I meant. GSM's a given. As I said, Truphone offers
this capability and you have one phone number which seamlessly moves
between WiFi and GSM.

>> Please include WiFi!
>
> It's just a matter of patience. OpenMoko/Neo is the Way[TM].

Everything I've read says it doesn't have WiFi.

Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 18 Jan 2007, at 12:42 am, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:


Renaissance Man writes:

Everything I've read says it doesn't have WiFi.


It doesn't. But assuming it's a success, there will surely be a  
successor soon that does.


Or how about guarantee success by giving it WiFi. This is all it  
needs to be a revolution from day one.


Renaissance Man.

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Renaissance Man writes:
>>
>> It's just a matter of patience. OpenMoko/Neo is the Way[TM].
>
>Everything I've read says it doesn't have WiFi.

It doesn't.  But assuming it's a success, there will surely be a
successor soon that does.  In the meantime, a bluetooth access point
isn't a great solution, but it is a solution.


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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

On 17 Jan 2007, at 11:29 pm, Alexander Steinert wrote:


They got it.


Who got it?

But VoIPoWLAN as the *only* speech channel is no killer app, IMHO.  
It's VoIPoWLAN + GSM.


Yeah that's what I meant. GSM's a given. As I said, Truphone offers  
this capability and you have one phone number which seamlessly moves  
between WiFi and GSM.



Please include WiFi!


It's just a matter of patience. OpenMoko/Neo is the Way[TM].


Everything I've read says it doesn't have WiFi.

Renaissance Man

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Re: Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Alexander Steinert]

> Who do I talk to ask them to include WiFi connectivity with the  
> OpenMoko? I'll sell my body parts to get hold of such a device.

I'd resell your kidneys :-)

> Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the mobile  
> communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is the  
> killer app.

They got it. But VoIPoWLAN as the *only* speech channel is no killer
app, IMHO. It's VoIPoWLAN + GSM. Here the GSM providers enter the stage
and don't like the idea too much, thus don't sponsor such devices.

> Please include WiFi!

It's just a matter of patience. OpenMoko/Neo is the Way[TM].

Stony


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Neither iPhone or OpenMoko are revolutionary

[Renaissance Man]

The reason is neither of them have VoIP via WiFi.

Who do I talk to ask them to include WiFi connectivity with the  
OpenMoko? I'll sell my body parts to get hold of such a device.


Why does no organisation (even Apple) seem to get it that the mobile  
communications revolution is through VoIP via WiFi. This is the  
killer app.


Well there is one organisation but they don't make hardware. They  
even offer a one phone number solution for VoIP/Cell too: truphone.com


Please include WiFi!

Renaissance Man

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