Re: Netiquette: Is there an issue, and can we make the ASF more welcoming?
Le 7 août 05, à 16:16, Noel J. Bergman a écrit : ... - Is there an issue? I don't think there is a general issue, but I see three points which might help: 1) Talking on lists that one doesn't know well is hard For me I feel much more comfortable on dev@cocoon.apache.org than on other lists because I consider that one my home at the ASF. I know many of the people who talk there, several of them I have met IRL, and we're used to talk together on the list, we know each other's tone, who's harsher and what it really means, who is sometimes betrayed by their limited english, etc. We read between the lines a lot when talking with people that we know well. OTOH, when I try to participate in a conversation with people whom I know less, I'm often surprised by the tone of some messages, or I discover pre-existing tensions between people which bend their way of talking, etc. It's just a more foreign environment which makes me feel less comfortable. Suggestion: people should make a conscious switch when they leave their home lists to talk on other lists, and be extra careful when not at home, mostly about their tone and how they react to the tone of others (who might be at home on that list). It's basic netiquette anyway, but maybe we forget about this because the other list is also at the ASF and we think it's home as well. 2) The wrong list syndrome The typical scenario is when a message is copied on the board@ list, then people start talking there even if the discussion does not belong there. Then, some people stay away from the discussion because they know it's off-topic there, and this most probably causes valuable opinions to be missing, or the discussion to thin out without any real action. Suggestion: define a simple protocol for moving discussions to another list when this happen. Suggested protocol: Reply with [MOVE] in the subject when one feels the discussion should move, and as soon as there are 3 or 5 +1s to this the discussion has to move, starting on the new list with a summary of what was said so far (without breaking privacy of course). 3) Lack of whiteboard It's well known that the most efficient discussion is an open one around a whiteboard. We have the openness with our lists, but very often we're missing the whiteboard: it's hard to jump in a discussion because one doesn't have a clear picture of the current state, what was said, what was already agreed upon, etc. This often causes a lot of friction, misunderstandings, irritation and generally lowers the already poor efficiency of the lists as a way of negociating important issues. Suggestion: use more [SUMMARY] messages when discussions go on for a long time and/or for many messages. Or post a progress report on a wiki, without breaking privacy of course. Do that in a 3P state of mind; Progress, Problems, Perspectives. - o - Apart from that, I think it's up to each PMC to take care of the tone of their lists. Talking about Cocoon again, because it's the only project where I'm regularly active, we take great care of not letting flamewars go on. I'm not saying that the Cocoon team is a perfect one, but there have been several instances of people calming down discussions, often saying we don't talk like that here and asking people to get back to factual claims instead of personal stuff. It works, the downside is that we tend to be too politically correct sometimes, but in the long term it seems much better than flaming at will. But I don't think any rules will help here, it's just each group that has to take care of themselves. -Bertrand smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Netiquette: Is there an issue, and can we make the ASF more welcoming?
Jean T. Anderson wrote: I'll post here what I've told Noel and others elsewhere. At ApacheCon Eu two men who attended the Derby BOF said they don't like to post to user lists because of the flame wars. One went further to say that he doesn't always have the time to thoroughly research the documentation and mail lists for a given topic. Both said they prefer to seek out knowledgeable developers and ask their questions off-line. My experience at Apache has been good, so I was surprised to hear two users say they were reluctant to post to mail lists. They didn't say which list(s) had flamed them. I too find this to be unusual behaviour at Apache. At projects that i work with, people are respectful. I wonder if this happens on some of the big user lists. My good experiences are mostly on dev lists or small user lists. Perhaps the Apache Way is not so evident in the user arena. At any rate, contacting people offline works directly against community building (not to mention being a time sink for those being contacted offline), so whenever I receive off-list email I respond by encouraging the sender to re-post to derby-user or derby-dev. Me too, and i often do copy-paste of some reasons. We need that on a website somewhere. Out of this I guess I'd suggest for Netiquette guidelines that abrasive rtfm's are counter productive. Courteous pointers to existing documentation and/or posts are productive. I often take the time to answer on-list and then take some of those words into the w.a.o/dev/ documentation. Noel J. Bergman wrote: There has been quite a bit of discussion around the ASF, not always on open lists, to the effect that sometimes people are turned off or scared off from participation, whether in a discussion, project or the ASF as a whole. The purpose for this message is to start a thread discussion the matter. - Is there an issue? Thanks for starting this key topic Noel. I expect that there would be an issue, even on the co-operative lists. I wonder if some a certain percentage or certain type of person might feel intimidated to step into the midst of people who sound like they know what they are talking about. If only they knew! - If so, how can we address it? By identifying and talking about the many aspects here on community@ and on our own project lists. Then creating some documentation at /dev/ website. -David As a point of reference, this week alone, I have seen at least a half dozen instances of people getting personally upset during correspondence on ASF lists. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Netiquette: Is there an issue, and can we make the ASF more welcoming?
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Henning Schmiedehausen a ?crit : ...For example, there are a lot of people that tell me, when they met me in RL, that my mails sometimes sound very harsh because they often contain only a single sentence or so.. I don't think one-liners are a problem generally at the ASF. -Bertrand, wondering if this proves the point ;-) However, Henning's analysis is spot on. The necessary brevity could appear as harsh to some newcomers. Perhaps a page of tips about such issues might help such people feel more comfortable, and so we are all more productive. -David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Netiquette: Is there an issue, and can we make the ASF more welcoming?
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Le 8 août 05, à 14:50, David Crossley a écrit : ...However, Henning's analysis is spot on. The necessary brevity could appear as harsh to some newcomers. Perhaps a page of tips about such issues might help such people feel more comfortable, and so we are all more productive... Agreed - brevity is because we're busy and we want to save the time of our busy colleagues, so it's worth telling newcomers that it's not harshness. -Bertrand I'm also known for being too brief/concise. As Bertrand stated, my goal is efficiency given so much email to wade through; however, I also realize it can lead to misunderstandings. Lately I've been adding a sincere If that page/post doesn't help, please be sure to post back to this list! Documenting that brevity should not be taken as harshness is a great idea and I'll go update http://db.apache.org/derby/derby_mail.html -- but that also assumes the reader has found the page with that wording. -jean - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Netiquette: Is there an issue, and can we make the ASF more welcoming?
Jean T. Anderson wrote: ... Lately I've been adding a sincere If that page/post doesn't help, please be sure to post back to this list! This a good idea. But I think you can add more cosmetic. As is currently it may be to strong for some people. ;-) Maybe something like: If this page/post doesn't help, feel free to ask for more help. (I am not a native english speaker too. Perhaps someone else can improve the above sentence. ;-) Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo. Documenting that brevity should not be taken as harshness is a great idea and I'll go update http://db.apache.org/derby/derby_mail.html -- but that also assumes the reader has found the page with that wording. -jean - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Netiquette: Is there an issue, and can we make the ASF more welcoming?
Antonio Gallardo wrote: Jean T. Anderson wrote: ... Lately I've been adding a sincere If that page/post doesn't help, please be sure to post back to this list! This a good idea. But I think you can add more cosmetic. As is currently it may be to strong for some people. ;-) Maybe something like: If this page/post doesn't help, feel free to ask for more help. (I am not a native english speaker too. Perhaps someone else can improve the above sentence. ;-) I think what you produced was excellent. thanks! -jean - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Netiquette: Is there an issue, and can we make the ASF more welcoming?
On 8/7/05, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There has been quite a bit of discussion around the ASF, not always on open lists, to the effect that sometimes people are turned off or scared off from participation, whether in a discussion, project or the ASF as a whole. The purpose for this message is to start a thread discussion the matter. - Is there an issue? - If so, how can we address it? One common complaint is the (perceived) level of bureaucracy, particularly for proposals entering the Incubator. I've often thought that some sort of welcome packet for new committers, new PMC members, and especially new Incubator projects could help. Someone suggested a welcome@ mailing list (as opposed to newbies :-) ) but I'd rather see this community list used instead. -- jaaron - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Netiquette: Is there an issue, and can we make the ASF more welcoming?
I'll post here what I've told Noel and others elsewhere. At ApacheCon Eu two men who attended the Derby BOF said they don't like to post to user lists because of the flame wars. One went further to say that he doesn't always have the time to thoroughly research the documentation and mail lists for a given topic. Both said they prefer to seek out knowledgeable developers and ask their questions off-line. My experience at Apache has been good, so I was surprised to hear two users say they were reluctant to post to mail lists. They didn't say which list(s) had flamed them. At any rate, contacting people offline works directly against community building (not to mention being a time sink for those being contacted offline), so whenever I receive off-list email I respond by encouraging the sender to re-post to derby-user or derby-dev. Out of this I guess I'd suggest for Netiquette guidelines that abrasive rtfm's are counter productive. Courteous pointers to existing documentation and/or posts are productive. -jean Noel J. Bergman wrote: There has been quite a bit of discussion around the ASF, not always on open lists, to the effect that sometimes people are turned off or scared off from participation, whether in a discussion, project or the ASF as a whole. The purpose for this message is to start a thread discussion the matter. - Is there an issue? - If so, how can we address it? As a point of reference, this week alone, I have seen at least a half dozen instances of people getting personally upset during correspondence on ASF lists. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
